Stop the Socking

[Daldaen]

Kind of confused why Taken never sits back and analyzes their own actions. You guys are one of the reasons things get taken to extreme limits as far as socking goes. Pretty sure that Inny being socked months straight by you guys was a big reason for rule changes. Preposterous.

http://i.imgur.com/W0NKWE4.jpg

And I'm pretty sure we would have no qualms with the changes I listed out that would completely remove socking.

1. C/R rotation with full FFA respawn -- no socking, CotH ducking or C/R petition wars.
2. No respawn windows just repop windows. Sim repops randomly occur as usual. -- removes all need to sock and track. The repops will zone wide alert you that everything respawned. C/R/FFA rotation kept in place.
3. 2 in zone when tracking mob, trackers can't FTE. No more socking but doesn't prevent CotHing. Can argue for no CotHing if you wish then it becomes a rule addition of legit starting points, speed buffs etc. But the crux of this is no socking with formed groups in zone or on the other side of zone lines... Camp your forces out.

Taken socked one mob for a few weeks. You've been socking Trakanon for years, along with hoarding every other mob as well with jav spam.

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/Rj5z9bO.png

[Erati]

http://i.imgur.com/Rj5z9bO.png

omg +1

[Daldaen]

So we agree Socking stuff is retarded and should be gotten rid of?

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/vVxBuhx.png

[Joyelle]

-10 internets for using a pic of Trakanon from EQ2.

[Daldaen]

So we agree Socking stuff is retarded and should be gotten rid of?

It seems direct and easy questions are avoided whenever I pose them. Again:

Do you agree we need to resolve to come together to create a solution that removes poopsocking?

I have 3 different changes suggested in previous posts that would do this. Explain why you agree or disagree with each.

[maestrom]

Friendly neighborhood non-raider here again.

What is a sim repop?

[Velerin]

Simple fix = FTE for a raid mob can only be acquired by a player with a job.
Must show a paycheck stub with an address that is not your parents.

[Daldaen]

Simulated repop.

It emulates the servers being brought down for a patch on Live that occured frequently and when the servers came back up every mob respawned.

On this server your screen will shake and a zone wide yellow message let's you know every zone is about to fully respawn with every raid boss.

[Clark]

-10 internets for using a pic of Trakanon from EQ2.

!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6qBO3JHPtQ

[Clark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4gBvpV_0_Y

"I think we're going to have to cancel this competition. I'm being serious. This isn't working."

[maestrom]

Simulated repop.

It emulates the servers being brought down for a patch on Live that occured frequently and when the servers came back up every mob respawned.

On this server your screen will shake and a zone wide yellow message let's you know every zone is about to fully respawn with every raid boss.

Ohhh fancy. How often do these happen?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Ohhh fancy. How often do these happen?

2/16
2/23
3/2
3/12
3/29
4/20
5/14
6/27
7/19
7/24
8/13
9/8
9/19
9/23
9/27
10/26

[Phased]

<P99 Raiders>

So pro at hardcore waiting.

So MLG at autoattack.

Is this the legacy you want?

Our tombstones should all read:

"Best player in a free clone of a 15 year old video game"
"Proud champion of pointless time-wasting equality"
"Beloved defender of fantasy pixels"
"Never let casual scum engage our merbs!"

Is this your life? When (If) you have grandchildren and they come to you and say, "Grand(pa/ma), tell us how you fought to ensure that our world was at least as good as yours." will you proudly extol the virtues of blocking with ogre walls and exploiting event mechanics to force another guild to wipe on your dragons? When your boss invites you to lunch to talk about the success of your latest project and your career potential, and asks you, "How was your weekend?" will you tell him/her, "Oh, it was great! We stopped those casual class R scum from trying to attain something!"? When you stand next to a disabled veteran at a crosswalk and the signal turns to walk, will you trip them and run across the street shouting, "lol get lost, stupid casual"?

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Can't we all just get along?

[Ella`Ella]

2/16
2/23
3/2
3/12
3/29
4/20
5/14
6/27
7/19
7/24
8/13
9/8
9/19
9/23
9/27
10/26

For an average of 1.777 repops per month! (Net -2.2222 from the proposed 4 per month)

[Gimp]

Guys, almost to 30.

Keep it going.

and September was a great month. Four repops? We should have that every month IMO.

[Lazie]

For an average of 1.777 repops per month! (Net -2.2222 from the proposed 4 per month)

There were more repops than those too. I just didn't feel like going to the FE boards and searching for the 4 or so that happened when we raided with IB. A few were not listed as repops in our logs. I'd say we had 20 or so since the repops started for an average of over 2 a month.

[Joyelle]

Did anyone ever answer whether or not TMO and IB used CoH for that 4am FFA VS? Saw it asked several times but still no answer.

[Lazie]

Class R mobs occur every 3 weeks. Or 17-18 spawns a year are Class R. With 2 repops a month, or 24 respawns a year, a third of Those respawns are Class R, so 8. Expect 25-26 Class R spawns a year per mob with 7 day respawn.

Class R mobs occur every 2 weeks. (Assuming C/R rotation). Or 26 spawns a year.

The Class R spawn number stays the same. Except with full FFA respawn, sure, Taken, BDA and Divinity may get 3 big targets. But other Class R guilds still can get big targets or the mid tier ones.

On a respawn, those bigger Class R guilds would target fire down CT/Inny/VS/Trak. Likely only getting 3/4. If two guilds have the same goal (say both go for VS), they will run into each other, one will win and the other will have to regroup and move elsewhere quickly. Which may mean 2 big targets are up for grabs to the medium sized Class R guilds.

In this time there's still going to be atleast 1 big target left up, plus the mid-tier ones like Sev (dem lightsabers)/Naggy/Vox/Gore/Tal. All of which Class R guilds have a decent shot at getting in the 5-10 min Class C is herpderp training and bladestoppering to get your Phara Dar. If you see VS is down you may stay in VP to get Druushk or Nexona. Giving the less hardcore Class R guilds more time to get a clean Sev/Naggy/etc.

The present system this is what happens a respawn:

4 mobs go to Class R, 4 mobs go to FFA, 4 mobs go to Class C.

The Class R mobs get cleared to and killed cleanly.
The FFA mobs generally speaking go to BDA, Taken and Divinity. If they don't all it's usually like an FFA Maestro or Draco that gets left for the smaller Class R guilds. I think the last FFA Trak went to whoever had Class R Trak on rotation since they were still set up for it with CotHing and such (correct me if I'm wrong)
The Class C vending machine mobs sit up while you train each other in VP. When you're done you decide which ones if any are worth competing for given you haven't bagged out yet.

But let's call a spade a spade. Everyone has their own self interest.

Class C hates these suggestions because it will likely lose them loot, they no longer have 3-4 guaranteed mobs waiting for them outside of VP when they finish.
Big Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means that every repop there are several valueable targets to race for, as opposed to the *maybe* 1 with the current situation.
Small Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means there is likely 1-2 high value targets and lots of medium value targets available for them to race for. Their vending machine kills stays the status quo as I showed above.

The way I think it could be sold to Class C is that Respawns don't have bag limits. So that even though you may be going from 2/3 weeks to 1/2 weeks having a mob, you now have the potential to get a huge kill list on a respawn, plus you never have to CotH duck again since the FFA competition will be respawns and your Class C competition already works so harmoniously.

If we (as the bigger Class R guilds) were entirely focused on pixel intake we would be in Class C or we could trash the rotation and take every third spawn in Class R. But we don't. We stay in Class R and Rotation because that's what we prefer.

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

The changes needed to promote this and this alone are not what you guys are promoting. You are promoting a system that largely benefits large guilds. If I was worried about my loot I would say keep things the way they were. I have already given you the best thing to push for.

[Lazie]

But... Baby steps.

I can get behind 2 in zone to tag, foot racers. No CotH.

Though I do think requiring new people to know the designated start point to tag in every zone is a bit much. Just make them logical points. Does Class C have points for all this stuff since you don't CotH?

Gore = KC Ent (on the brick/stone platform)
Sev = FoB zone line (what's a geographical object that can be used as a milestone so people don't creep up)
Tal = On OT ramp
Faydedar = On Ogre island land (or you can do on Chessboard if you want to get closer so that that pull isn't 20 minutes)
VS = DL Ent (behind bridge)
Nagafen = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see a kobold)
Vox = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see the ramp)
CT/Inny/Maestro/Draco = Not in zone
Trakanon = Not in zone... No preformed CotH groups. (The poopsocking on this must die, figure out ideas on how to get that to happen without people herpderp training all the way down to him...)

I think that's something most could agree to. Just need to clarify foot race. All classes/movement speeds allowed? Can druids/wizards evac themselves and/or taggers if the evac point is advantageous?

Yeah those look like good areas. Again I would tackle Trak separately. It really does need it's own specific discussion.

[Raev]

Look, if you are going to have two people footrace from the zone in for VS, then by definition everyone else has to be at the login screen. There is no good solution.

[Erati]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

[Daldaen]

I appreciate your perspective and somewhat false rhetoric to push your agenda. However again changing it to C/R then FFA on repops does nothing but lose mobs over time for Class R when you include the Class R mobs on repops. The change you guys are asking for does nothing to help up and coming guilds enter the raid scene. You are actually taking mobs away from the Class specified for them to wet their feet in raiding.

The changes needed to promote this and this alone are not what you guys are promoting. You are promoting a system that largely benefits large guilds. If I was worried about my loot I would say keep things the way they were. I have already given you the best thing to push for.
Except with the simple math I showed you, it doesn't take anything from Class R guilds. Quite to the contrary.

Their Class R target count would stay identical to what it is now. The only way this is false, is if we suddenly get an up-tick in the amount of sim repops we get, increasing beyond 2-3 a month. Nothing indicates the amount of sim repops is increasing.

The reason it is actually gaining mobs for Class R guilds is on a repop the 4~ FFA targets won't immediately be gobbled up by TMO, IB, BDA, Taken and Dicinity. With every non-VP spawn being FFA every Class R guild capable of a solo kill can likely get an FFA kill before they are all dead. Those who are very small and new, like MC or Indignation, can team up to get an FFA kill. Something that isn't possible or likely with the current System.

I'm not speaking in false rhetoric. Just cold hard numbers. Numbers which anyone who plays on this server can see and understand.

No where did I state it allows new, up in coming guilds to enter the raid scene... But it does. That entry point is Class R. With a Class R mob every other week, as opposed to every 3rd week, they have a more fixed time period to try a Class R mob and enter the scene.

Also these are static times, the 22nd of the month for example, and you know for sure it will be that day (especially if variance is reduced). This allows those smaller guilds who likely don't have all-day/week raid forces, to alert their guilds and set aside a time to be present for the raid mob. With the current system a single sim repop can screw that up for them. (Although somewhat unlikely) The Dracoliche they wanted to try on a Thursday evening spawned instead early Wednesday AM. Now they need to figure out a new time to attempt that mob. If you don't think having a specific time slot you know a mob will spawn in so that people can arrange to be present isn't a big deal for casual guilds, I suggest you join one for a few months and look at everyone's play time. Advanced notice is crucial to solid attendance for casual guilds. Sim repops can completely disrupt that. Also large variance screws it up even more.

Here are the facts:


C/R and C/R/FFA is the SAME number of Class R mob spawns every year given we stay at the current 2 sim repops per month (which has held true since its implementation)
Removal of FFA cycle would remove CotHing since Class C has self proclaimed eradicated it from your competition (though jury is still out on 4 AM VS...)
Class R will continue doing what it does with no poopsocking
Class C will continue what it does with their SoW foot races (removal of poopsocking VS and Trak is up to your guilds)
Full FFA on respawn will mean there are 12 targets outside of VP to go after.
During Full FFA respawns there are more targets available meaning the larger guilds cannot easily block everyone from getting a kill. (Like they can and do when there are only 4 targets to go after) This will lead to smaller guilds getting more time and chances to get FFA kills.
Solves the FFA poopsocking issues without adding further rules like 2 taggers or starting lines for the race etc. Since FFA competition becomes respawns exclusively.


Will this change all of a sudden see Moonlight Crusaders getting VS and Indignation getting Trak. No. It may not even see them getting Maestro. But it will give them the option and likely their best shot in an FFA scenario to go after Maestro or Draco or Talendor or Faydedar. If they wish that is.

If the FFA game is just not their cup of tea and they say no thanks to early morning batphones. NO PROBLEM. Your Class R mobs will spawn with the same frequency at a guaranteed time window that no sim repop will disrupt.

All of those facts are known to everyone on this server, whether you want to admit that or not.

What is suggested is the most simple and clean way to keep Class R spawns equivalent, so as to not interrupt the small guilds you so desperately champion for. While removing the clash of two different play styles that don't play nice together (no more CotHing, unless Class C wants to). It also would remove poopsocking unless Class C wishes to persist doing that in their spawns (Class R rotation never sock and you can't sock a respawn). It would include more people in respawns, since right now the limited number of FFA targets prevent most smaller R guilds from partaking.

It loses Class C spawns, Yep. You may have to work faster on a respawn to snake that next CT from BDA. But guess what, Class R is growing... And Class C is stagnating. A small shift in proportions isn't the end of the world, it's logical. Indignation, Omni and MC now occupy slots in rotations when they didn't before. They'll keep their amount of R spawns and have some shots at FFA spawns that they didn't before.

[Lazie]

Except with the simple math I showed you, it doesn't take anything from Class R guilds. Quite to the contrary.

Their Class R target count would stay identical to what it is now. The only way this is false, is if we suddenly get an up-tick in the amount of sim repops we get, increasing beyond 2-3 a month. Nothing indicates the amount of sim repops is increasing.

The reason it is actually gaining mobs for Class R guilds is on a repop the 4~ FFA targets won't immediately be gobbled up by TMO, IB, BDA, Taken and Dicinity. With every non-VP spawn being FFA every Class R guild capable of a solo kill can likely get an FFA kill before they are all dead. Those who are very small and new, like MC or Indignation, can team up to get an FFA kill. Something that isn't possible or likely with the current System.

I'm not speaking in false rhetoric. Just cold hard numbers. Numbers which anyone who plays on this server can see and understand.

No where did I state it allows new, up in coming guilds to enter the raid scene... But it does. That entry point is Class R. With a Class R mob every other week, as opposed to every 3rd week, they have a more fixed time period to try a Class R mob and enter the scene.

Also these are static times, the 22nd of the month for example, and you know for sure it will be that day (especially if variance is reduced). This allows those smaller guilds who likely don't have all-day/week raid forces, to alert their guilds and set aside a time to be present for the raid mob. With the current system a single sim repop can screw that up for them. (Although somewhat unlikely) The Dracoliche they wanted to try on a Thursday evening spawned instead early Wednesday AM. Now they need to figure out a new time to attempt that mob. If you don't think having a specific time slot you know a mob will spawn in so that people can arrange to be present isn't a big deal for casual guilds, I suggest you join one for a few months and look at everyone's play time. Advanced notice is crucial to solid attendance for casual guilds. Sim repops can completely disrupt that. Also large variance screws it up even more.

Here are the facts:


C/R and C/R/FFA is the SAME number of Class R mob spawns every year given we stay at the current 2 sim repops per month (which has held true since its implementation)
Removal of FFA cycle would remove CotHing since Class C has self proclaimed eradicated it from your competition (though jury is still out on 4 AM VS...)
Class R will continue doing what it does with no poopsocking
Class C will continue what it does with their SoW foot races (removal of poopsocking VS and Trak is up to your guilds)
Full FFA on respawn will mean there are 12 targets outside of VP to go after.
During Full FFA respawns there are more targets available meaning the larger guilds cannot easily block everyone from getting a kill. (Like they can and do when there are only 4 targets to go after) This will lead to smaller guilds getting more time and chances to get FFA kills.
Solves the FFA poopsocking issues without adding further rules like 2 taggers or starting lines for the race etc. Since FFA competition becomes respawns exclusively.


Will this change all of a sudden see Moonlight Crusaders getting VS and Indignation getting Trak. No. It may not even see them getting Maestro. But it will give them the option and likely their best shot in an FFA scenario to go after Maestro or Draco or Talendor or Faydedar. If they wish that is.

If the FFA game is just not their cup of tea and they say no thanks to early morning batphones. NO PROBLEM. Your Class R mobs will spawn with the same frequency at a guaranteed time window that no sim repop will disrupt.

All of those facts are known to everyone on this server, whether you want to admit that or not.

What is suggested is the most simple and clean way to keep Class R spawns equivalent, so as to not interrupt the small guilds you so desperately champion for. While removing the clash of two different play styles that don't play nice together (no more CotHing, unless Class C wants to). It also would remove poopsocking unless Class C wishes to persist doing that in their spawns (Class R rotation never sock and you can't sock a respawn). It would include more people in respawns, since right now the limited number of FFA targets prevent most smaller R guilds from partaking.

It loses Class C spawns, Yep. You may have to work faster on a respawn to snake that next CT from BDA. But guess what, Class R is growing... And Class C is stagnating. A small shift in proportions isn't the end of the world, it's logical. Indignation, Omni and MC now occupy slots in rotations when they didn't before. They'll keep their amount of R spawns and have some shots at FFA spawns that they didn't before.

I mean you can keep saying it doesn't. But it does. I'm not responding to the 5 paragraphs of spin after. It costs Class C nothing. All it does is make the ability to kill FFA mobs for newer guilds harder.

[Daldaen]

I mean you can keep saying it doesn't. But it does. I'm not responding to the 5 paragraphs of spin after. It costs Class C nothing. All it does is make the ability to kill FFA mobs for newer guilds harder.

Your post is all deflect and no fact.

I have facts, you just don't want to address them since they don't jive with what you want (the status quo).

[Lazie]

New up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

So right now, without any changes to anything, up and coming guilds have 3 very clear options.

Your agenda is becoming painfully clear both here and in the raid forums. Taken is the root cause of things being the way they are on FFA spawns. They pushed it to what it is. The barrier for entry into competing on FFA for newer guilds is steeper than it has to be because of this. Yet you guys continuously try to deflect that and ask for a change to FFA that only benefits larger guilds. As I said before the changes need to be what makes the current system more approachable for all. Not a system that takes mobs off the Class R cycle and adds them to FFA repops.

Changing things to R/C Repop=FFA, new up and coming guilds can enter the Raid scene by:

1. Joining the Class R rotation ( plenty of evidence here suggesting that there is no obstacles in doing this )
2. Going 'Lord Bob', namely being FFA vs R targets and strictly against rotation
3. Joining Class C

There is zero difference in terms of a new guild's ability to enter the raid scene.

What we have been discussing in THIS thread is getting rid of the necessity of socking spawns.

I presented the best options to do that. You keep pushing against it to keep mages in place to continue the socking. Surprise ?

Yes, a new up and coming guild who wants to enter the mix of the current FFA environment has to break down the invisible player made walls of :

1. mage face trackers ( plvl a guild owned account to share)
2. potential COH duck wars ( FU Taken)
3. poopsocking ( FU Taken)

New up and coming guilds who want to enter the mix of the proposed FFA scene would have to break down the invisible EQ made walls of:

1. Raid bosses spawn in various zones and in hostile environments, requires travel or teleportation and to proceed with caution and strategy
2. Alerting your guild members of the mobs presence, mostly via text message or email
3. Having proper resists and gear required to zerg down the raid boss

Thats the beauty of this proposed solution to socking.

There would be no more invisible player made walls, only the walls this game created for the players.

New up and coming guilds would be able to enter both the Raid scene ( choose R, Lord Bob style or C) and the new FFA scene with relative ease no matter their gear make up, roster size or availability.

What they can accomplish would be up to them, but there would be nothing limiting them in regards to what this proposal entails.

Again just reread this everyone. Taken is saying "Let's make all the spawns FFA on repops"(Which can happen at any time during the month and at any hour of the day) instead of removing the socking they added to the current FFA cycle. They are using rhetoric that it's because Class C is worried about losing mobs as the reason we don't support this.

It isn't true. We will roughly get the same amount of kills with no big losses. We want an FFA cycle that is more approachable to everyone with easy rules to follow that limits who can be in zone so that every guild is on the same footing. It's obvious what guild wants to keep the poopsock in place. It isn't Class C.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

[Lazie]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

Mhm and if they got variance lowered to a +/- 4 hour window it would be more approachable for all guilds.

[Daldaen]

I remember when all the raids were done one week except an FFA talendor. He had something like 2 hours left in window. Was a bard race (from the OT ramp area) and everyone seemed to enjoy that. No real cheating in that, no autofire, and not nearly as much work as chain ducking a COTH. Just a straight jaunt to the mob. Still don't see why this couldn't work.

Remember FFA Inny when he was in the last 30 minutes of his window and that was a complete train clusterfuck? Even the one last week was a clusterfuck. So bad that TMO didn't try to attempt a second time after wiping.

Goes both ways, just depends on the mob.

As I stated earlier, I'm not opposed to something that gets rid of socking and CotHing.

Your foot race idea is all good and well. But your very own guild officer complains about how more rules is bad and reduces creativity. Is he opposed to it?

Would it work to reduce poopsocking, ideally, yes. But that's lots of new rules and starting places everyone has to agree to and abide by. Which can be harder to police. Could screenshot or FRAPs every "race start" to make sure you've got everyone present and accounted for I suppose.

Even still - VS and Trak, I dunno how you will foot race those. And those are the two biggest socks currently, which is the issue. You can't just create rules the avoid the two biggest problems.

Could do that, 2 taggers and 1 tracker (non-mage) in zone. Set up some starting lines... Agree to no gating or evaccing. I'd say any Runspeed (lawyerquesting about someone trying to spirit of scale and skirt the rules or something dumb like that can just be avoided). Then figure out how to handle VS / Trak.

Write it up and post it up. If it's streamlined, logical, and is going to remove poopsocks and reduce stupid day long variances. I will likely be behind it. I'm sure plenty of Class R guilds would be too.

C/R with full FFA respawns however solves that with no new rules, separates C and R during respawn windows since that seems to cause bad blood, fosters more legit competition/race in form of a respawn (race is actually mobilizing people and not just who can target and has the best jav click), keeps Class R guilds getting their same number of spawns since that's a high concern for everyone here it appears.

I was most in favor of no respawns and just repops so that tracking and poopsocking were both removed in a single swoop... No one has fun hitting track or staring for a 16 hour window. Getting an earthquake and going off to the races however is fun.

[iruinedyourday]

I dont know how to make one but if u put a poll up that said, should all raiding be earthquakes and ffa with bag limmits or stay the way it is, im sure the earthquakes would get far more votes.

[Widan]

I can't believe people shit talk Red when you have threads like this on the general forums. The worst part is none of you seem to have any self awareness of how embarrassing this all is.

[Lazie]

Daldaen the foot race is ideal because it takes very few rules to police.

-You can only have 2 in the race
-Start at 1 chosen spot
-FTE only with the 2 people you choose to race with.

That's it.

[Daldaen]

Daldaen the foot race is ideal because it takes very few rules to police.

-You can only have 2 in the race
-Start at 1 chosen spot
-FTE only with the 2 people you choose to race with.

That's it.

"In the race". Does this mean in zone?

If no, it doesn't solve the root issue. The shitting in a sock. If yes, people will Q-Q about not being able to camp Fungi King or Tranix or Verix while mobs are in window. Which they freely do now... Personally I say to these people deal with it, but expect to meet resistance on this end.

1 chosen spot x 6 Kunark targets, 4 planar targets (though it's easy to say no in zone), and 2 classic dragons.

So it's 8 new spots that everyone needs to agree upon and be informed about. Not too much... Would warrant a post on boards here if it's agrees to.

[Daldaen]

Or a Class C/R rotation with Full FFA respawn is 0 new rules.

[Erati]

I think part of the issue is that some of us here are trying to get change that ultimately makes the game more fun, exciting, challenging and dare I say ...."more classic feeling" than what what we currently enjoy

If they changed variance to +- 4 hours then I could get behind some kind of 'no socking, no mage' race situation but I still feel there are quite a bit of layers to this type of FFA ruleset that new guilds would have growing pains with. Since it is a form of poopsocking you will still see current R guilds simply refuse to participate and since your are championing for everyone to have a some what equal experience in the FFA scene this change wouldnt be fair to them.

The FFA repop would emulate what it was like on EQ Live when your server status on patch day changed from DOWN to UP......it was Enter World and GO

Racing ( as you define it) still favors a larger guild, namely having larger player pool of 'racers' to choose from which in turn heavily favors those with more experience/gear/large roster/expansive timezone coverage/neckbeardery/batphones etc etc etc.

Racing is essentially poopsocking.

Deru asked people to not sock.

Class R mobs involve zero poopsocks.
Class C mobs involve zero poopsocks ( according to you guys, tho you have around 20 combined people from both guilds sitting on the blue pad 'waiting' every VP window )
FFA sim-repop mobs involve zero poopsocks.

The answer to stop poopsocking is very clear, and very easily attainable. The sim-repops are already functioning. The R/C/FFA tier cycle already functions.

You simply remove one iteration and add to the sim repop code to freeze the raid page so the kills dont cycle the mob over.

Done.

[Blaza]

Do you honestly believe that in a FFA situation with no other mobs up a young, new guild would be able to outrace TMO and IB (and Taken, BDA, Div, Omni (not the numbers there, but well geared experienced players))? A young, inexperienced, not-fully geared (i.e. they can't two group/stall tank) will only be able to snag FFA targets if an abundance of said targets are all present at the same time, leading to other guilds being busy and not present at the target.

Young guilds will get more mobs the more often the rotation spins fully around, meaning that having more Class R mobs will benefit them as the rotation spins faster. That is pretty much the only way they realistically will be able to kill a mob, at least until they get kitted out/gain more experience, which will only come from killing mobs, which will only come from being up more often in the rotation, which will only come from there being more class R spawns, etc.

Still loads better than the old "Trak has <4 hours left in window, lets have 140 plus people all sit in the lair' days. Or the VS room, or whatever.

[Erati]

Daldaen the foot race is ideal because it takes very few rules to police.

-You can only have 2 in the race
-Start at 1 chosen spot
-FTE only with the 2 people you choose to race with.

That's it.

Racing works great in VP when there are no other camps to worry about, lowbie guild members exping on their one day off, or in general other EQ things going on in the zone.

The zone also is structured very linearly so there are limited 'race paths' you can take when running to a mob.

Racing in VP makes sense.

However, racing ( as you define it ) is far from ideal in Sebilis, KC, Sol B, Perma, Plane of Hate and the Plane of Fear.

There will either:

A. Always be other people in the zone trying to 'experience' it.
B. Is an alter plane and thusly no 'safe' spot for the racers to wait ( tho I guess Fear outside the portal works....GO GO Gadget SSD )
C. Issues with policing and proving an infraction- ( Show me his run speed, show me where he was standing, show me who else was in the zone, show me etc etc etc )

So while I understand why racing has brought about a utopia in VP, it certainly feels like a perfect society nowadays compared to the former train wars, but just injecting that into the FFA scene outside of VP is not as easy as simply saying "2 people, 1 spot, go".

[Justerd]

Who want's to CoTH duck for even 4 hours? I'm just a filthy causal I guess.

Coming from a smaller guild (I don't speak for them) full simulated re-pop FFA's would be more fun. Right now I feel we aren't going to get any because we don't have uber neck beards CoTH ducking for 16 hours. It gives a good way for some of the smaller guilds to be able to compete for some of the lesser mobs but not having to go full on neck beard. Yes, some guilds won't be able to have full numbers on at 2am in the morning but that's what guild alliances are for. I don't know who would get more mobs who wouldn't or bag limits I just think it would be interesting to see how it goes. Although if winter ever comes I feel that no matter what people will be bitching / crying over mobs again.

[Blaza]

Although if winter ever comes I feel that no matter what people will be bitching / crying over mobs again.

Truer words never spoken.

[Lazie]

Peace guys. It's obvious Class R is just going to keep pushing their agenda in this thread instead of looking for a more productive solution that doesn't limit who can compete on these spawns. Daldaen I know you have worked to be somewhat receptive to changes that can really fix the sock. Looks like it's going to actually take Class R officers wanting to make a change that GM's will accept before we can legitimately have this discussion.

[Erati]

Peace guys. It's obvious Class R is just going to keep pushing their agenda in this thread instead of looking for a more productive solution that doesn't limit who can compete on these spawns. Daldaen I know you have worked to be somewhat receptive to changes that can really fix the sock. Looks like it's going to actually take Class R officers wanting to make a change that GM's will accept before we can legitimately have this discussion.

What solutions have you brought forth besides your lone racing idea?

You have yet to even adjust any factors involved in it however we are the ones pushing an agenda?

[Justerd]

Or a Class C/R rotation with Full FFA respawn is 0 new rules.

If you think about it you're taking away rules that will no longer be needed.

[Lazie]

What solutions have you brought forth besides your lone racing idea?

You have yet to even adjust any factors involved in it however we are the ones pushing an agenda?

Uhm lowering variance and racing while limiting the number of people that can be in game in the zones is the only workable solution. It has the benefit of making the raid scene more approachable to everyone. It is also something the GM's will likely consider if we come to a consensus.

It's the only real change that can limit the socking of zones and reducing the effort Class R guilds have to put in.

[Blaza]

I am in favour of whatever is decided. I just do not see the logic in saying that the current system favours small guild over C/R FFA on repops.

Your argument that having more FFA mobs means more opportunities for small guilds to experience raid content is inherently flawed. I can take my brother to a strip club window, doesn't mean he's seeing tit.

[Lazie]

I am in favour of whatever is decided. I just do not see the logic in saying that the current system favours small guild over C/R FFA on repops.

Your argument that having more FFA mobs means more opportunities for small guilds to experience raid content is inherently flawed. I can take my brother to a strip club window, doesn't mean he's seeing tit.

Last reply of the thread for me. It puts everyone on equal footing for FFA mobs. Making repops FFA when some guilds have an around the clock roster and others don't doesn't. Guilds can look at windows and decide what fits their guilds strengths (When they can have the most numbers around etc.). So yeah bad comparison.

Good luck with the discussion guys!

[Joyelle]

I don't see the difference in a small guild not being able to go after a FFA mob during a middle-of-the-night repop vs same small guild not being able to go after their class R mob during a middle-of-the-night repop.

Actually there is a difference. If a full-out FFA repop happens in the middle of the night and they can't get anyone on to kill it, the small guild doesn't lose their R mob because technically it hasn't even popped yet.

Under the current system, if a small guild is up for a class R mob and a respawn happens in the middle of the night and they can't get a raid force online to kill it, guess what happens? They lose that mob, and then the next spawn is off in class C land.

Stop trying to push your own agenda by misleading people with your false numbers. (See what I did there?)

P.S. Answer the question about VS

[Clark]

Stop trying to push your own agenda

I don't know if it can ever stop.

http://i.imgur.com/ioUchfG.jpg

[Joyelle]

answer it!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

answer it!

Answer what? :3

[Joyelle]

Did or did not TMO and IB use a mage to CoH in their FTE'r into the 4am (I think it was the last?) VS, when Taken or any other class R guild were not even there contesting it?

[arsenalpow]

Did or did not TMO and IB use a mage to CoH in their FTE'r into the 4am (I think it was the last?) VS, when Taken or any other class R guild were not even there contesting it?

i'm going to say yes just to be contentious

[Joyelle]

I have inside sources that tell me yes but I want to hear them answer.

[iruinedyourday]

I have inside sources that tell me yes but I want to hear them answer.

http://i.imgur.com/Ee5DReB.gif

[Erati]

If they lied about never using mages or COHing when its just them 2 what else could they possibly be stretching the truth about....

[Joyelle]

I think we scared them away :eek:

[Komodon]

Did or did not TMO and IB use a mage to CoH in their FTE'r into the 4am (I think it was the last?) VS, when Taken or any other class R guild were not even there contesting it?

If it was an FFA spawn then yeah, we probably had a mage there. We do that with the possibility Taken or somebody else shows up with their own.

If it was a Class C spawn then no, we never use mages.

And there you go :)

[Daldaen]

If it was an FFA spawn then yeah, we probably had a mage there. We do that with the possibility Taken or somebody else shows up with their own.

If it was a Class C spawn then no, we never use mages.

And there you go :)

If it's something that is so detested and you absolutely despise CotH ducking why aren't you foo tracing and just face tracking on Mages just incase big-bag taken arrives?

Edit: helpful hint, we really won't be contesting a 4 AM EST respawn. Even on a weekend.

[Joyelle]

If it was an FFA spawn then yeah, we probably had a mage there. We do that with the possibility Taken or somebody else shows up with their own.

If it was a Class C spawn then no, we never use mages.

And there you go :)

Finally an answer! thank you!

Well, kind of an answer. What I was asking about was if that mage CoH'd in your FTE'r or if your FTE'rs foot-raced from the zone in. Surely someone knows!
You guys are good at dodging the question at the heart of the matter. You almost had me for a split second there.

[Daldaen]

Anything with rotation in it is bound to receive big no's from class C.

Even still:

Increasing Variance is about the worst thing you could do currently. All that does is benefit big guilds and remove small guilds.
Remove the rule about must allow 5min for new guild to try. That's just another layer of complexity not necessary.
Your plan doesn't address the most glaring issue, what happens to rotation if you don't get the kill? With 1-hour to engage rule that will guarantee most guilds not getting their kills especially on something like Trak or CT or Inny.
The 1-hour rule just changes the poopsock. To who tracks, sets a timer and waits 1hour to get FTE. Cause most Class R guilds wait longer than an hour to kill their targets, especially those that I mentioned before, that require trash clearing (or extremely non-classic trains)

Trying to force a rotation on Class C won't work, ever. Especially since Sirken and Derubael have their backs about how they want to see "competition".

Problem being competition is retarded on this server. Jav spam was retarded. CotHing is retarded. Foot racing is retarded too.

Only really competition on 32k HP dragons is on respawns where the guilds that move and coordinate fastest get the biggest reward. Which is why no respawns and simulated respawns (using C/R system and no bag limit on C merbs) and fully FFA repops (with no bag limit) would allow both factions of players to enjoy their play style and pixel attainment.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Everything is retarded except what you want. Got it. Will start drafting the new p99 rules.

[khanable]

Why is foot racing retarded exactly?

[Phats]

Finally an answer! thank you!

Well, kind of an answer. What I was asking about was if that mage CoH'd in your FTE'r or if your FTE'rs foot-raced from the zone in. Surely someone knows!
You guys are good at dodging the question at the heart of the matter. You almost had me for a split second there.

We used coth on our tank and got FTE and our tank got shit on and we wiped. IB came and cleaned up our usual mess and got the kill.

[khanable]

The biggest issue I see with socking is the circumstances that cause it: variance

Shit isn't classic. We've had 96 hour windows and guilds were not afraid to sock it. You want to get rid of socking? Massively reduce variance.

C/C/R, full FFA repops, 1 hour windows, each class makes their own dumb rules

everyone gets to go outside

[kaev]

The biggest issue I see with socking is the circumstances that cause it: variance

Shit isn't classic. We've had 96 hour windows and guilds were not afraid to sock it. You want to get rid of socking? Massively reduce variance.

C/C/R, full FFA repops, 1 hour windows, each class makes their own dumb rules

everyone gets to go outside

You had to go and spoil it, didn't you? Now nobody will ever agree to reduced variance. Vegetables like sunlight, neckbeards not so much, I'd have thought you understood that by now. :(

[Daldaen]

Why is foot racing retarded exactly?

How is foot racing better than say CotHing?

The only redeeming quality it has, is that you have to *maybe* coordinate with your tracker on your movements for the 4 roaming dragons.

It still requires you sit at your computer staring at a start line for 16 hours while another person stares at another pixelated area for 16 hours and batphones when a pixel dragon appears.

With both CotHing and foot racing you have to maintain buffs and be at your desk the entire time waiting for a 16 hour spawn.

Don't see how foot racing or CotHing are any different in their competitiveness.

[Gimp]

C/C/R with much reduced variance definitely gets my vote. No more of this stupid FFA with cothduck mages and all the other stupid shit that happens.

More earthquake repops too. Those are fun.

[Troubled]

How is foot racing better than say CotHing?

The only redeeming quality it has, is that you have to *maybe* coordinate with your tracker on your movements for the 4 roaming dragons.

It still requires you sit at your computer staring at a start line for 16 hours while another person states at another pixelated area for 16 hours and batphones when a pixel dragon appears.

With both CotHing and foot racing you have to maintain buffs and be at your desk the entire time waiting for a 16 hour spawn.

Don't see how foot racing or CotHing are any different in their competitiveness.


You in Taken?

[Brut]

Don't see how foot racing or CotHing are any different in their competitiveness.

One actually includes the word "race" in it, which sounds alot more like competition? The other one sounds an awful lot like a macro.

[khanable]

Seems like Taken doesn't want to give up COTHing because you're willing to go that extra mile and win some FFA, with foot races you have less of a chance due to TMO/IB already doing that themselves in C, and Chest agrees with Taken because he doesn't like to agree with TMO/IB

ya'll are being dumb

[arsenalpow]

Seems like Taken doesn't want to give up COTHing because you're willing to go that extra mile and win some FFA, with foot races you have less of a chance due to TMO/IB already doing that themselves in C, and Chest agrees with Taken because he doesn't like to agree with TMO/IB

I'm agreeing with Taken because foot racing is just as stupid as coth ducking, AND because I don't like to agree with TMO/IB. Get it straight.

[khanable]

There is no fucking way foot races are as bad as CoTH ducking

CoTH ducking:
1) Sit at computer
2) Cast CoTH every 10s
3) Watch spawn location
4) If no pop, duck, if pop, don't duck, yell at tagger to get off youporn

Foot Race:
1) Sit at computer
2) Watch spawn
3) If spawn, tell racer to get off youporn and run

3<4

[kotton05]

Cucumber for prez.

Also I can be down for ccr with reduced variance foot racing. But I do love FFA and watching the rage that insues when BDA loses a mob.

[Troubled]

There is no fucking way foot races are as bad as CoTH ducking

[arsenalpow]

There is no fucking way foot races are as bad as CoTH ducking

CoTH ducking:
1) Sit at computer
2) Cast CoTH every 10s
3) Watch spawn location
4) If no pop, duck, if pop, don't duck, yell at tagger to get off youporn

Foot Race:
1) Sit at computer
2) Watch spawn
3) If spawn, tell racer to get off youporn and run

3<4

There's a splinter in your thumb, it's all infected and gross, how do you fix it?

A bandaid?
Medication?
Leeches?

Coth ducking is a symptom of a larger problem, foot races will have similar bleeding edge strats adopted as well and too will be a symptom of a bigger problem.

Remove the splinter, get rid of the FFA cycle.

[G13]

There is no fucking way foot races are as bad as CoTH ducking

CoTH ducking:
1) Sit at computer
2) Cast CoTH every 10s
3) Watch spawn location
4) If no pop, duck, if pop, don't duck, yell at tagger to get off youporn

Foot Race:
1) Sit at computer
2) Watch spawn
3) If spawn, tell racer to get off youporn and run

3<4

You're retarded if you do either

None of these pixels are worth all this nonsense

[khanable]

Cucumber for prez.

Also I can be down for ccr with reduced variance foot racing. But I do love FFA and watching the rage that insues when BDA loses a mob.

I too love FFA - but if we want a "level" FFA field, especially in Kunark, the only way it'll happen is with a random repop.

Now it's a test of mobilization and target selection instead of who can come up with the most retarded tracking/engagement techniques.

Lots of fun. Lots of QQ, too, I'm sure.

[Daldaen]

Seems like Taken doesn't want to give up COTHing because you're willing to go that extra mile and win some FFA, with foot races you have less of a chance due to TMO/IB already doing that themselves in C, and Chest agrees with Taken because he doesn't like to agree with TMO/IB

ya'll are being dumb

I'm more than happy to give up CotHing. It's just that with 16 hour windows where no spawns overlap, or respawns, the 'race' is bound to be stupid in whatever form it takes.

So what's the difference between CotHing and Foot Racing. Let's remove CotH ducking from the equation for a moment.

What happens:

Mob spawns
-CotH- Person CotHs dude near dragon but not in aggro range
-CotH- Dude runs towards dragons and attempts to /tar and /Jav first

Mob spawns
-Foot Race- Person shouts in TS/Vent/Guild chat that mob spawns
-Foot Race- Dude runs towards dragons location and attempts to /tar and /jav first

In both situations, you have the same thing happening, except the "race" ends up leading to more trains in a Foot Race in certain zones (with see invis). The only difference is the time it takes to get to the mob. Still requires you have people available all window, at two locations, a starting/zone line and at the spawn.

Outdoor dragons that roam require some coordination between mobs pathing and the foot racer.
Indoor static spawns require some sort of tested "fastest path from zone in to mob" that all must learn... A bit of strategy in which path you take in KC for example to get to VS. But thats no big deal just another thing to learn when FTEing.

Full repops with no respawns would foster more healthy competition (see no tracking, socking or CotHing). But that keeps getting shot down.

[Gimp]

Remove FFA, let the carebears have their free pixels. Taken can stop cothducking (because they only do this to spite class C on FFA spawns, right?) and TMO/IB can go back to footracing everything except Trak.

C/C/R rotation, reduce variance and I'm sure TMO/IB will come to an agreement on the number of people allowed in zone that kills the current socking situation.

[Daldaen]

Cucumbers we appear to be on the same page about how competition is dumb other than respawn.

But let's say CotH ducking is banned tomorrow. If you remove that part from your equation, what is the difference between CotHing (when only cast near spawn) and foot racing? Cause I don't see one.

And people don't JUST hate CotH ducking they hate mage trackers with CotH in general, which I don't grasp. Without ducking, it's the same thing just a different flavor.

[Troubled]

Cucumbers we appear to be on the same page about how competition is dumb other than respawn.

But let's say CotH ducking is banned tomorrow. If you remove that part from your equation, what is the difference between CotHing (when only cast near spawn) and foot racing? Cause I don't see one.

And people don't JUST hate CotH ducking they hate mage trackers with CotH in general, which I don't grasp. Without ducking, it's the same thing just a different flavor.

There's flavors better than piss.

[khanable]

But let's say CotH ducking is banned tomorrow. If you remove that part from your equation, what is the difference between CotHing (when only cast near spawn) and foot racing? Cause I don't see one.

Foot facing doesn't involve clicking a two buttons every 10s and watching the spawn intensely to interrupt the process

[Daldaen]

There's flavors better than piss.
Not if you're Bear Grillz. And it seems many of you are interested in subjecting yourselves to staying awake 16 hours straight doing nothing but staring at a single spot for minimal purpose.

You may find it more palatable sure.

And if you're curious, yes I'm in taken. No I don't track or play a mage. Cause it's retarded.

Let's go to a random respawn every weekend that keeps C/R/FFA designations, no bag limits. Then 2-4 respawns a month at a completely random time that are completely FFA with no bag limit.

Same number of mobs, a much tastier version of racing and competition. It removes all forms of CotH, staring at a wall for 16 hours, etc.

Explain to me why this is a bad idea.

[khanable]

Explain to me why this is a bad idea.

not classic

need natural spawns and non-dumb variance

full FFA repops are "classic" (patches, etc)

[Daldaen]

not classic

need natural spawns and non-dumb variance

full FFA repops are "classic" (patches, etc)

You remember classic server stability right? It was extremely common for servers to reset before mob timers respawned fully.

Sounds pretty classic to me.

If it doesn't sound classic to you, having 10+ guilds on the server capable of downing most every raid mob outside VP is far from classic and may warrant a non-classic fix. Like all repops and no respawns.

[khanable]

You remember classic server stability right? It was extremely common for servers to reset before mob timers respawned fully.

Sounds pretty classic to me.

"extremely common" != never have a natural respawn ever again

[Daldaen]

"extremely common" != never have a natural respawn ever again

Granted.

But I don't think the 4-year non classic Kunark lock, which fostered this raid environment is solveable with purely classic solutions.

[khanable]

Granted.

But I don't think the 4-year non classic Kunark lock, which fostered this raid environment is solveable with purely classic solutions.

Of course not, but we should move towards more classic solutions and less rules IMO

[Clark]

Huge amounts of retarded going on here in this thread lately.

[Daldaen]

Of course not, but we should move towards more classic solutions and less rules IMO

Repops remove the necessity of lots of rules.

FTE with tracker
2 trackers
CotHing
Autofiring
Poopsocking
Bag Limits

Etc.

While not strictly classic, it solves many of the route issues. And let's be honest, it's no less classic than having variance at this point in time.

All the rules you'd really need are keep the C/R/FFA system for the simulated respawns. And make sure people weren't camping out their forces at spawn points.

[Whirled]

http://gabrielutasi.com/comic/copyright/gabrielutasi/2007/08/082907love_socks.gif
No socking area reminds me of those No idling signs that you see people idling their cars by.

[khanable]

Repops remove the necessity of lots of rules.

FTE with tracker
2 trackers
CotHing
Autofiring
Poopsocking
Bag Limits

Etc.

While not strictly classic, it solves many of the route issues. And let's be honest, it's no less classic than having variance at this point in time.

All the rules you'd really need are keep the C/R/FFA system for the simulated respawns. And make sure people weren't camping out their forces at spawn points.

Part of classic EQ was 'this mob died at this time, and will likely be up around this time'. Removing that is just removing a large portion of what made EQ, EQ.

[Erati]

Just figure out how to punish ducking and then we can tell our mages to never do it because we currently dont even tell them TO do it

COHing in your FTEer is no different than racing like Dald said, the only difference as Cucs points out is that the mage presses a button to COH where in a race the runner just runs.

I agree with Chest, you dont just put a bandaid on an infected splinter in your thumb, you remove the splinter ( FFA cycle )

Sim-repops being FFA polices itself, removes the need to poopsock anything and brings about what literally 100% of the population agrees is the 'most fun' which is the mobilization for multiple raid targets which are spread all across Norrath. I have no idea why the GMs wont seriously consider at least seeing what would happen if they gave us 2 months to 'test' it. Remember, these raid changes were and are never 'tested', they become law and players have to learn on the fly. With each change, the players are essentially beta testing P99 raiding.

It makes no sense to me that the rule makers cant someway acknowledge that some of these rules are still not fully fleshed out in terms of their 'vision' of the server and be actively looking for ways to improve this part of our community.

Also, I am shocked Troubled wants FTEs to be a race as a bard, who would have seen that coming?

[Daldaen]

Part of classic EQ was 'this mob died at this time, and will likely be up around this time'. Removing that is just removing a large portion of what made EQ, EQ.

Variance already does that....

And no one was keeping exact respawns on raid mobs in classic. Sure they said "we killed Talendor on Sunday let's kill him again Sunday". They did NOT say "we killed him at 05:14:12 on Sunday let's arrive at 5:10:00 next Sunday and be prepared for him to spawn" It seems like an extremely weak argument to make that removing non-classic variance respawns and replacing them with non-classic sim repops takes the EQ out of EQ.

Taking out one non-classic mechanic that fosters all sorts of bad results like poopsocking, and replacing that with a mechanic that makes poopsocking basically impossible sounds like a good idea to me.

Dunno about others but that doesn't make EQ any less EQy for me. People aggroing raid bosses within 5 seconds of their spawning does make EQ less EQy for me though.

[kaev]

Part of classic EQ was 'this mob died at this time, and will likely be up around this time'. Removing that is just removing a large portion of what made EQ, EQ.

I do not think that you are using the phrase "large portion" correctly at all in that sentence. Expansions that changed the game every 9-12 months would be an example of "a large portion of what made EQ, EQ". Patches that included mechanics changes that radically altered game-play for some/most classes coming out on unpredictable schedules and often catching the most of the playerbase off-guard would be an example of "a large portion of what made EQ, EQ". Keeping track of raid mob respawn timers pales to insignificance in comparison.

[khanable]

Variance already does that....

And no one was keeping exact respawns on raid mobs in classic. Sure they said "we killed Talendor on Sunday let's kill him again Sunday". They did NOT say "we killed him at 05:14:12 on Sunday let's arrive at 5:10:00 next Sunday and be prepared for him to spawn" It seems like an extremely weak argument to make that removing non-classic variance respawns and replacing them with non-classic sim repops takes the EQ out of EQ.

Taking out one non-classic mechanic that fosters all sorts of bad results like poopsocking, and replacing that with a mechanic that makes poopsocking basically impossible sounds like a good idea to me.

Dunno about others but that doesn't make EQ any less EQy for me. People aggroing raid bosses within 5 seconds of their spawning does make EQ less EQy for me though.

I'm against variance. I've stated I wish to see C/C/R, full FFA repops, 1 hour windows. I also don't want to have one single raid day a week. That's boring.

I do not think that you are using the phrase "large portion" correctly at all in that sentence. Expansions that changed the game every 9-12 months would be an example of "a large portion of what made EQ, EQ". Patches that included mechanics changes that radically altered game-play for some/most classes coming out on unpredictable schedules and often catching the most of the playerbase off-guard would be an example of "a large portion of what made EQ, EQ". Keeping track of raid mob respawn timers pales to insignificance in comparison.

If you say so

I still think removal of natural spawns is just against what EQ was about.

[Daldaen]

I'm against variance. I've stated I wish to see C/C/R, full FFA repops, 1 hour windows. I also don't want to have one single raid day a week. That's boring.



If you say so

I still think removal of natural spawns is just against what EQ was about.

EQ is about Questing. Yet many buy full epic MQs. It's about different things to different people I suppose.

Dunno how anything except frequent repops or stupidly large variance will make more than 1 raid day a week. 1 hour windows will lead to a single raid day every week for sure. I think 1 day is good personally though.

I stand by C/R/FFA repops replacing respawns being the best option. FFA respawns and C/R rotation, so that the rate of R spawns and movement of rotation is kept the same given 2 per month respawns. Is another option (less preferable) that keeps it the same and keeps people happy. Lazie seemed very concerned about R losing spawns with the suggested changes, this option keeps it the same number.

[khanable]

I stand by C/R/FFA repops replacing respawns being the best option for Taken.

[Daldaen]

Best option for people who want to have fun racing to targets and not CotHing or Foot Racing from predetermined poopsocking positions.

[khanable]

Best option for people who want to have fun racing to targets and not CotHing or Foot Racing from predetermined poopsocking positions.

Let's be real, no natural spawns and everything somehow on a magical repop system (I still don't know how to reconcile 3 day and 7 day spawns if everything is a random repop), is only going to benefit guilds such as yours, mine, and C - who have members that will log in for a batphone that occurs at whatever random time.

There are guilds that already don't even want to drag their members out of bed for a spawn that they know about, much less one that is totally random.

[Erati]

Cucs,

Get the ground swell of support for a racing FTE, Taken will oblige and still be there competing under whatever dumb ruleset is forced upon us.

Guess what tho, after 1 month of the 'new' style of FTE raiding...the guilds which dont compete now....will still not.

I guess its a shame no one sees the bigger picture.

( inb4 people quote me and alter my last sentence into something self serving towards my guild )

[Daldaen]

Let's be real, no natural spawns and everything somehow on a magical repop system (I still don't know how to reconcile 3 day and 7 day spawns if everything is a random repop), is only going to benefit guilds such as yours, mine, and C - who have members that will log in for a batphone that occurs at whatever random time.

There are guilds that already don't even want to drag their members out of bed for a spawn that they know about, much less one that is totally random.

Didn't think much about those 3 day spawns. Meh. Draco should be 7 and Maestro should be 12 hr anyways if we want to be classic (wru fixed pending updated). Trakanon can have some sort of specialness for him I'm sure since he is already special in his own right.

It will benefit those guilds only when it happens in a bad time frame. Which is literally no different from the current situation. Their class R spawns can occur at 4 AM on a weekday. Knowing that the window goes into that time period doesn't help if you aren't willing to get up at that time.

Knowing your window is certainly helpful for more casual guilds, but really only in the favorable time spans for your members. As I mentioned earlier.

However if it happens during Europa's prime time for example they may be able to knock out an FFA mob which they never would've socked or tracked beforehand. Or it may spawn in the middle of the euro workday and they won't have a shot... No different than the spawns currently, except you don't have to devote 3-4 people to sitting at designated spots waiting to FTE for a 16 hour window.

[Magnar]

It's always an arms race and the fuel for this has always been the staff/devs who have plainly stated that they want to see competition.

Then the staff needs to stop creating convoluted raid rules that have too many loopholes and exploitations and just let people go all out. Either lay the hammer down and come up with something concrete that is fair to EVERYONE, not just 2 big kids playing in the sandbox while everyone else has to watch, or just let everyone go at it like the savages they truly are, spreading trains, killsteals, and everything else.

What is the point of the competition? As someone who has been in that special sandbox, it's f*cking pointless and not fun at all. Ya, sure, getting gear is great, but it makes you feel like a real sack of crap when you're watching rare loot get destroyed that you know someone else could use, just because they're under a different tag.

This isn't a job, no one is making any money off of this. Rogean has thrown the gauntlet down on anyone who even ATTEMPTS to make a coin off his server. Hell, he barely covers the expenses to run it through donations, and most of his staff doesn't even play here, but they work on it to provide something for others, because their passions was the programming side and figuring out whether or not they could do it. Well, they did it, but immature attitudes from the playerbase, particularly the raid scene, is just destroying what they've worked so hard to create because people want to throw tantrums over a damned digital dragon and who made contact first?

If you took all of the raid suspensions from each major guild, each kill they've gotten, and everything else and put it all into a spreadsheet, I guaran'damn'tee you it will come out pretty f*cking even, with the exception being smaller, upstart guilds being completely squashed at every turn when they're trying to gear up with planar trash drops.

Server numbers may visually appear to be somewhat steady, but look around the raid scene. People are constantly quitting because of the horrible conditions of that social aspect of the game. Most of the 'does not drop anymore' loot is locked into characters that don't even log in anymore, the server's only Ton Po's staff is stuck on a guy permabanned for cheating because of this ass backwards raid system. That right there should have been a HUGE red flag that something was totally wrong with how things are being ran, from both sides of the field.

Rogean has said time and time again he and a lot of the staff do not play here, which is totally respectable because it gives a totally unbiased view when dealing with GM matters, but quite honestly and with total respect (as sometimes things are lost in the tone of the internet, and want to make it clear I'm just posting this as a discussion statement and not trying to belittle the staff in any way), I think it puts you in a position to really not know what calls to make in regards to the raid scene on the server. It's a whole different experience to be part of the raid spending hours behind the view of a character, constantly interacting with your own guild and their rivals.

The current version of the competition aspect doesn't add anything to the server other than more issues for the staff to deal with, so why bring more issues on yourselves?

[Lazie]

The one thing you guys arguing against racing need to stop doing is disparaging the views of people who would like to try it. No one is calling you retarded in this thread for presenting your opinions and wishes. Each time a person in this thread posts an opinion that differs from your own, you guys spend hours trying to tear it down before you actually give it the thought it deserves.

Using rhetoric like "retarded", "Stupid", or "dumb" to label anyone else's opinion besides your own isn't constructive. I saw Erati use a phrase "He's a bard of course he wants to race" to attack someone else's opinion. When racing was first brought up in this thread you attacked it as a Class C thing as a way to explain away the most common sense way of handling things. Now there are definite Class R players on the record saying they would prefer to give it an opportunity and you guys are quickly finding different ways to attack them or explain away why they support the idea.

I'm just pointing out here that you guys need to stop trying to beat down other people's opinions. It's not constructive and it's pretty easy to see through the facade that you just want things your way. Either have this constructive discussion where people can give their ideas or just title the thread "A group of guys attacking every opinion but our own".

[khanable]

It will benefit those guilds only when it happens in a bad time frame. Which is literally no different from the current situation. Their class R spawns can occur at 4 AM on a weekday. Knowing that the window goes into that time period doesn't help if you aren't willing to get up at that time.

Completely untrue.

[Lazie]

Completely untrue.


Yep, you have 6 hours before that mob turns FFA on regular spawns.

[khanable]

Yep, you have 6 hours before that mob turns FFA on regular spawns.

I think Dald's idea was that you'd still have those 6 hours before total FFA (however many before class-R FFA) since his full repop retains the R/C/FFA properties.

What I meant by untrue was preparation for a target definitely aids smaller guilds. Even larger guilds - I'm far less inclined to log in for a 4AM Trak if I'm not already camped in Seb. Fuck that.

[Lazie]

I think Dald's idea was that you'd still have those 6 hours before total FFA (however many before class-R FFA) since his full repop retains the R/C/FFA properties.

What I meant by untrue was preparation for a target definitely aids smaller guilds. Even larger guilds - I'm far less inclined to log in for a 4AM Trak if I'm not already camped in Seb. Fuck that.

I agree with that too. I know the times we wipe it is because we don't have time to prep. I also hate waking up when I am asleep to kill a mob.

[Daldaen]

I think Dald's idea was that you'd still have those 6 hours before total FFA (however many before class-R FFA) since his full repop retains the R/C/FFA properties.

What I meant by untrue was preparation for a target definitely aids smaller guilds. Even larger guilds - I'm far less inclined to log in for a 4AM Trak if I'm not already camped in Seb. Fuck that.

Very few people are motivated to log in at 4 AM for a respawn. Whether you were expecting that or not...

Genuine question here to smaller R guilds. How much of your guild parks a character for your Class R targets as is?

My assumption is that there is always going to be a more hardcore faction in any guild that has multiple toons that they camp in various places. But that the vast majority of these guilds don't camp out a toon but instead mobilize to the target from wherever their main character is.

Is that a false assumption, and all these smaller R guilds are camping out their mains for Talendor and Gore a day in advance? I can see the camp out for something like Trakanon that's a decent run plus clear or CotH down... But most everything else?

[Erati]

The one thing you guys arguing against racing need to stop doing is disparaging the views of people who would like to try it. No one is calling you retarded in this thread for presenting your opinions and wishes. Each time a person in this thread posts an opinion that differs from your own, you guys spend hours trying to tear it down before you actually give it the thought it deserves.


And people posting pictures of ducks are suppose to make me smile and jump into an adult conversation?

myself and Trouble already went back and forth on our secret FAP forums about this subject so it was probably left over anamosity from that convo. Apologies.

Like I just stated a couple pages ago either:

Figure out how to police COH ducking and then we can finitely tell anyone who mages to track to not do it or they will get that char banned

Right now 100% of COH ducking by Taken is either done to:

1. Troll TMO/IB into making them COH duck ( who doesnt enjoy trolling TMO? )
2. Compete with the other Taken mage to see who can COH me in first ;)

We have no agenda, no charter, no policy, no nothing in terms of asking our mage trackers to cast coh and interrupt it.

Wanna know how COH ducking started???

It happened as a JOKE. 2 hrs left for Naggy Breaken ( calling you out father of CoH ducking ) decided it would be funny to 'pump fake' TMO and he casted COH then stopped it.

Well TMO's mages there got scared at the thought Taken might have a 5 sec head start than them so they started doing it too.....

There is no nefarious plot here. The rules changed making it very obvious to myself and our raid leaders that a mage coh would provide the quickest route for FTE.

I pretty much assumed everyone would also see that.

We plvled 1 mage in 1 week and thats all. Never intended to shit up the raid scene or anything dumb like that, simply digested what the rule change meant and adapted what was a successful strat.

back to this topic.....

The title of this thread is called Stop the Socking.

Racing is still poopsocking. Dald pointed out why very clearly so go reread what he said, I am not going to rehash it.

It can be debated whether its actually better than a mage COH version of FTE or not ( it is certainly better than coh ducking but whether its that much better than mage tracking is personal opinion )

the point of this thread was to figure out how people would stop shitting in socks to the extreme measure we do now. its impossible to not 'wait' for things in this game, its how it was designed but there could certainly be tweaks made so the poopsock game could be made obsolete.

Larger variance windows does not make poopsocking obsolete, it only creates a higher barrier of entry for raiding - see VS pit

Racing for FTE does not make poopsocking obsolete- watch Hoku's FTE of Phara Dar....there are way more than 2 'racers' out there herp derping around

Viscereal had a PD fte video too, not sure if that was before you guys had official race rules, but there were like 10+ people charging around from your 2 guilds

- apparently you are allowed to have 'trainers' n such follow your FTE racers?
( I could be completely wrong so maybe I need the full scope of 'what is allowed' in a race)

sorry for the wall of text, but I have given racing plenty of thought. It was brought forth as an idea to me from Mazam like 4-5 months ago and I expressed the exact same concerns I have today.

Racing does not work without maps, guidelines, starting points, qualifiers, fraps, evidence gathering, and a large neckbeardy roster who can have people waiting at the starting point for the 16 hrs.

Why in the world is that a better solution to anything?

again tho, if racing is deemed the way to go, Taken will race.

then will be blamed for something else :)

[Lazie]

Racing does not work without maps, guidelines, starting points, qualifiers, fraps, evidence gathering, and a large neckbeardy roster who can have people waiting at the starting point for the 16 hrs.


Most of these concerns again are false and just more ways you invent to disparage the idea. It really doesn't make sense either because the problems you seem to be trying to invent are largely problems you have to face with CotHing.

1. You have 1 tracker outside the racers. You don't need a map. This is better than the current CotH'ing as you have less people near spawns.
2. You don't need fraps or evidence gathering. 2 racers from a guild is easy to follow and police without headaches.
3. Reduce variance. Also waiting at the starting point is the same as being ready to CotH for 16 hours. Again seems like you are describing the problems with what we currently have.. not what we could have. Although it has been said many times...put lower variance into your proposal.
4. Starting points already exist with CotH'ing.

I will make another point because I have seen you post something a few times now. We in TMO have strategies faster than CotHing that doesn't involve CotH ducking. CotHing was never very innovative or appealing to us to ever do because competition that is fair to everyone is what most of us desire. We chose not to implement strategies to this point to push this to even further extremes. I just want you to personally know this was never an "Arms race". We can turn it into that whenever we choose. Yet we don't. Because we hope common sense eventually wins out.

[Troubled]

Cucs,

Get the ground swell of support for a racing FTE, Taken will oblige and still be there competing under whatever dumb ruleset is forced upon us.

Guess what tho, after 1 month of the 'new' style of FTE raiding...the guilds which dont compete now....will still not.

I guess its a shame no one sees the bigger penis.

( inb4 people quote me and alter my last sentence into something self serving towards my guild )

ftfy

Also, you're wrong.

[Erati]

ftfy

Also, you're wrong.

what am I wrong about exactly?

Where have I supported COH ducking?

I have simply stated that the race doesnt fix poopsocking and if we make changes I would like to see those changes affect whether people shit in socks or not.

No one here that supports a race can deny that you still require both the racer and the tracker to stare at their monitor for X-Y hours.

Even if its reduced to 1 hour variance, you still poopsock for 1 hr.

Lazie,

Can you explain ( bc I honestly dont know ) the role of the other people on the blue pad who are not the official taggers since you allow only 2?

And how are qualifiers not a concern for racing?

- What run speed is allowed?
- What classes are allowed?
- Starting points?
- How do you prove someone broke one of those defined rules?

and why do you have to make me chuckle saying that stuff about a pure and honest competition....then threaten the server that you have a 'secret weapon' faster than COHing but refuse to use it.

wat?

but again, I repeat.

If racing is what gets decided on, then Taken will race.

I am sorry I see the big picture when making a change and not trying to just have a bandaid, flavor of the month solution.

[Lazie]

what am I wrong about exactly?


Lazie,

Can you explain ( bc I honestly dont know ) the role of the other people on the blue pad who are not the official taggers since you allow only 2?

And how are qualifiers not a concern for racing?

- What run speed is allowed?
- What classes are allowed?
- Starting points?
- How do you prove someone broke one of those defined rules?

and why do you have to make me chuckle saying that stuff about a pure and honest competition....then threaten the server that you have a 'secret weapon' faster than COHing but refuse to use it.

wat?

but again, I repeat.

If racing is what gets decided on, then Taken will race.

I am sorry I see the big picture when making a change and not trying to just have a bandaid, flavor of the month solution.

We don't only allow 2 in Class C. Majority of those in VP are pullers with a couple buffers. Again you are just inventing ways to disparage something that is true competition.

Instead of responding to the many obvious deflections you are creating in your post (Derogatory comments galore!) I will simply deal in truths. Because you need to stop side tracking this discussion with things you are inventing.

1. Racing is competition and CotH ducking is the luck of when you duck.
2. Racing would include more participants in the FFA cycle. Even without variance reduction.
3. There would be less rules headaches with racing. I know you are trying hard to invent scenarios, but this is a simple truth. Remember that accidental FTE that Taken pulled and killed ? Wouldn't happen. Remember the fit thrown over mages standing on the spawn ? Wouldn't happen.
4. Setting a mandatory number for racers and changing it to 1 tracker will have less people standing on the spawns of mobs and less people from each guild socking the mobs.

I get it while others might not. Calling it a bandaid and saying you are taking a bigger view though is just false. Your views are coming from a position you feel you have power to present and manipulate. It doesn't make the view broader, educated or better in any way. It makes it your opinion that you are staunchly standing on. You are standing on it because you want a change that the GM's have already said no to.

[Daldaen]

CotH ducking we can ban outright if you wish and figure out punishment for doing it. I'm sure Taken would be behind that NP.

CoTH Mages we could ban as well, and force foot racing / starting points. But that doesn't solve the poopsock issue I don't think. Same number of people will be at the same number of points. Only difference would be maybe 1 tracker instead of 2 Mages on the spawn.

CotH mage and Foot race is no different, both require a catalyst (seeing the dragon), which leads to a reaction (batphone -> CotH or hotkey/vent shouting telling people to run), then a short or long run towards a target spamming a jav/Clicky and targeting.

I'll grant you foot racing may be a lower barrier of entry for smaller guilds. But if you don't limit Runspeed it just becomes bards, and that's the same barrier of entry. If you do limit Runspeed, then that's more rules and likely becomes an extra body SoWing you every 30min. Or do you really use SoW potions every sock? Plus unless we get variance lowered (which I believe you're behind), you won't see smaller guilds competing regardless.

[khanable]

Why do you need a punishment in place to stop?

Why can't you just stop?

[Troubled]

what am I wrong about exactly?

Where have I supported COH ducking?

I have simply stated that the race doesnt fix poopsocking and if we make changes I would like to see those changes affect whether people shit in socks or not.

No one here that supports a race can deny that you still require both the racer and the tracker to stare at their monitor for X-Y hours.

Even if its reduced to 1 hour variance, you still poopsock for 1 hr.

Lazie,

Can you explain ( bc I honestly dont know ) the role of the other people on the blue pad who are not the official taggers since you allow only 2?

And how are qualifiers not a concern for racing?

- What run speed is allowed?
- What classes are allowed?
- Starting points?
- How do you prove someone broke one of those defined rules?

and why do you have to make me chuckle saying that stuff about a pure and honest competition....then threaten the server that you have a 'secret weapon' faster than COHing but refuse to use it.

wat?

but again, I repeat.

If racing is what gets decided on, then Taken will race.

I am sorry I see the big picture when making a change and not trying to just have a bandaid, flavor of the month solution.

You're not crusading for anything other than your own agenda and you should quit trying to fool people into thinking you are.

There is no big picture. The big picture idea was already shot down. We're not getting FFA sim repops or anything like it and we're not getting reduced variance because the server has proven we don't deserve it. The C/R/FFA system is here to stay as is until Velious.

You're promoting either one extreme or the other thinking that that sort of grandstanding is going to get something done.

You know that class R guilds were showing up before coth ducking and now they're not. Your assessment that 1 month will go by before they stop again after this nonsense gets ruled out is completely unfounded and false.

Taken and for some reason Chest are the only people holding on to coth ducking like it's some chip to be played to get us full FFA repops, and it's against the will of 95% of the server.

[Lazie]

CotH ducking we can ban outright if you wish and figure out punishment for doing it. I'm sure Taken would be behind that NP.

CoTH Mages we could ban as well, and force foot racing / starting points. But that doesn't solve the poopsock issue I don't think. Same number of people will be at the same number of points. Only difference would be maybe 1 tracker instead of 2 Mages on the spawn.

CotH mage and Foot race is no different, both require a catalyst (seeing the dragon), which leads to a reaction (batphone -> CotH or hotkey/vent shouting telling people to run), then a short or long run towards a target spamming a jav/Clicky and targeting.

I'll grant you foot racing may be a lower barrier of entry for smaller guilds. But if you don't limit Runspeed it just becomes bards, and that's the same barrier of entry. If you do limit Runspeed, then that's more rules and likely becomes an extra body SoWing you every 30min. Or do you really use SoW potions every sock? Plus unless we get variance lowered (which I believe you're behind), you won't see smaller guilds competing regardless.

One is healthy competition that more guilds can participate in and the other isn't. It also limits the people in zone (No buffers at some mobs etc.) So it largely changes the number of people in some zones. You may not be able to completely get rid of poop socking, but you can limit the value it has and restrict the number of players guilds can use.

I could compete on these spawns right now without a CotH mage and win. There are different mechanics in this game that are faster than CotHing...ducking or otherwise. Banning just CotH mages or ducking does nothing to curb the current excesses things get pushed to. You need a universal way of competing that people can follow and that is accessible.

That is foot races from designated starting points. Also any class that can cast sow have their uses in racing as well (If we are limiting run speed). Shaman's can throw Javs, Rangers have Bows, and a Druid can easily be just one of the 2 racers if neither of those 2 are present. BtW a 10 dose SoW potion lasts 5 hours. 2 10 hours..3 15 hours if it came to that. It opens the options up to use every class and give every guild an opportunity no matter what Class they can bring to the race.

[Amirite]

2. You don't need fraps or evidence gathering. 2 racers from a guild is easy to follow and police without headaches.


LOL Are you kidding me??? wtf

edit providing you a link to why this would not work: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168758&page=2

Evidence is posted then forumquested into demanding more evidence with logs and timestamps with satellite images with tells and locs by more then 1 person at the same time...

even though the evidence was clear it was still spun and pissed on by TMO to demand more evidence and spin rules to favor themselves.

[Daldaen]

Why do you need a punishment in place to stop?

Why can't you just stop?

Same reason TMO and IB CotH raced when Taken wasn't present in zone.

Because the other guy "Could do start doing it".

If they hate it so much, the guild leaders can make a post in the raid discussion forum to get rid of it.

[Lazie]

LOL Are you kidding me??? wtf

Nope not kidding. It would never arise.

Edit: As for your edit. That shows exactly what having too many people at the spawn causes. Drama and petitions.

[khanable]

There is no big picture. The big picture idea was already shot down. We're not getting FFA sim repops or anything like it and we're not getting reduced variance because the server has proven we don't deserve it. The C/R/FFA system is here to stay as is until Velious.

I don't think any of us are debating for something we think we'd actually see set in place. To me at least, it's just been a debate on what we think would work best.

but,

Taken and for some reason Chest are the only people holding on to coth ducking like it's some chip to be played to get us full FFA repops, and it's against the will of 95% of the server.

Still echoes truth, especially if Taken require the act of ducking CoTH to be against the rules to stop.

[Daldaen]

Pretty easy for it to stop.

Just make a post in raid discussion forum:

Title="No more CotH ducking"

Contents="All members utilizing magicians CotHing will not Cast CotH and duck"

Leaders/Officers Post="BDA Signs", "Taken signs", "TMO signs, "IB signs"

Easy, done an an hour or two. Make it so.

[Lazie]

Pretty easy for it to stop.

Just make a post in raid discussion forum:

Title="No more CotH ducking"

Contents="All members utilizing magicians CotHing will not Cast CotH and duck"

Leaders/Officers Post="BDA Signs", "Taken signs", "TMO signs, "IB signs"

Easy, done an an hour or two. Make it so.

What is to stop trackers from becoming Necro's with 5 coffins and Clerics grouped with a bard then ? Just keep a fresh corpse at the spawn with a rez box ? All the bard needs at that point is a trusty Reaper, idol and a quick click of his jboots. People will push these excesses if you don't put a system in place that is simple and easy to follow.

Edit: Yes I am aware I just told the entire server 1 thing faster than CotH ducking.

[Amirite]

Nope not kidding. It would never arise.

Edit: As for your edit. That shows exactly what having too many people at the spawn causes. Drama and petitions.

that shows that TMO will do anything they can to get mobs..by allowing FFA on sim repop they would lose mobs.. its all about TMO here... you say this is about Takens Agenda.. but in reality its about TMO.. explain to me how FFA sim repop (not in a wall of text) would be bad for anyone and NOT allow for true competition?

[Daldaen]

Same thing that stops them from doing that currently. Or from parking a pet on spawn point currently.

No one but Class C would do something that would involve so many rechargeable on a weekly basis and you already have your foot racing agreement.

[Lazie]

Same thing that stops them from doing that currently. Or from parking a pet on spawn point currently.

No one but Class C would do something that would involve so many rechargeable on a weekly basis and you already have your foot racing agreement.

Uhm no. A reaper is the only rechargeable in that scenario. Idols aren't really needed with DA song. It's just added insurance. By just doing away with mages or ducking you don't fix the inherent problem that YOU guys say exists. Arms Racing.

[Lazie]

that shows that TMO will do anything they can to get mobs..by allowing FFA on sim repop they would lose mobs.. its all about TMO here... you say this is about Takens Agenda.. but in reality its about TMO.. explain to me how FFA sim repop (not in a wall of text) would be bad for anyone and NOT allow for true competition?

False. Trust me we have quite a few strategies that could have taken this to further extremes. We don't use them.

[Amirite]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirite
that shows that TMO will do anything they can to get mobs..by allowing FFA on sim repop they would lose mobs.. its all about TMO here... you say this is about Takens Agenda.. but in reality its about TMO.. explain to me how FFA sim repop (not in a wall of text) would be bad for anyone and NOT allow for true competition?

False. Trust me we have quite a few strategies that could have taken this to further extremes. We don't use them.

i'm not seeing an answer? this only explains that TMO already has strats in place to win FFA mobs using "foot racing"..again trying to push foot racing (their own agenda) which would guarantee them mobs.

which in turn states that FFA only on sim repops would get rid of such possibilities and focuses on TRUE competition...

[Lazie]

i'm not seeing an answer? this only explains that TMO already has strats in place to win FFA mobs using "foot racing"..again trying to push foot racing (their own agenda) which would guarantee them mobs.

which in turn states that FFA only on sim repops would get rid of such possibilities and focuses on TRUE competition...

Oh wow ok...haha. Can I borrow your tinfoil hat ?

[Amirite]

Oh wow ok...haha. Can I borrow your tinfoil hat ?

you are the one saying it.. not me..i'm only bringing out the truth.

[Erati]

What is to stop trackers from becoming Necro's with 5 coffins and Clerics grouped with a bard then ? Just keep a fresh corpse at the spawn with a rez box ? All the bard needs at that point is a trusty Reaper, idol and a quick click of his jboots. People will push these excesses if you don't put a system in place that is simple and easy to follow.

Edit: Yes I am aware I just told the entire server 1 thing faster than CotH ducking.

we had the idea to res people in when people complained about mages

lol its all dumb

and ty for responding to my questions Lazie, you cleared up the VP race stuff I was wondering about

I am well aware Sirken already started R/C/FFA wont change. Is it that horrible to talk about how great a tweak to that system would benefit the raid scene for the server as a whole?

But I guess this will get spun into something that I am holding the server hostage til Taken gets their way

Maybe we can try racing next weekend ( not this weekend since shit will need to be planned ) and see what happens, what issues arise....

I would love for people to find pro-COH ducking stance from Taken, there is none.

it is also 'easier' to say 'WHY CANT YOU STOP DOING IT' than lecturing everyone who tracks to not do it or else bc guess what the fact is rustles TMO so much makes people who volunteer to track WANT TO DO IT MORE.

if we had to mage track Class R spawns and were competing versus only other R guilds, you would never see it done.

[khanable]

it is also 'easier' to say 'WHY CANT YOU STOP DOING IT' than lecturing everyone who tracks to not do it or else bc guess what the fact is rustles TMO so much makes people who volunteer to track WANT TO DO IT MORE.

if we had to mage track Class R spawns and were competing versus only other R guilds, you would never see it done.

I like you Eratani, but this is the reason that FFA sucks right now.

[Daldaen]

Im down for your 2 man foot race with SoW and start points if windows are like 30 minutes.

But right now the single biggest thing turning people away from FFA is sitting there for 16 hours. Reduce it to 30 min, remove CotHing and require a foot race, you will see far more guilds competing.

Even 8 hours or 4 hours you won't bring many more guilds into the fray. An episode of Futurama worth of time though... People will sit around and try for FTE and mobilize/log on for it.

[Erati]

I like you Eratani, but this is the reason that FFA sucks right now.

did you completely gloss over this part




Maybe we can try racing next weekend ( not this weekend since shit will need to be planned ) and see what happens, what issues arise....




and look for more stuff to hate me and my guild for?

[khanable]

Yes

[Erati]

Yes

figured, even when the overlords of mages, coh and ducking mention the possibility of trying a race it doesnt matter

its all pitchforks and torches up in here

[Daldaen]

In fairness one mage does like it... But he is French. So ehhh.

For real though, when I get home tonight I'll do some MSPainting and make some baller post.

[Erati]

maybe I can use my baller editing skills to animate your MSpainting Dald

can you do some stop motion?

[Lazie]

you are the one saying it.. not me..i'm only bringing out the truth.

I think most people in this thread or that know me will tell you straight up I'm pretty open and truthful. There are other strategies and pulling methods that are even faster than the one I mentioned here. All those strategies can be curbed by implementing foot races and the few stipulations I mentioned.

[khanable]

figured, even when the overlords of mages, coh and ducking mention the possibility of trying a race it doesnt matter

its all pitchforks and torches up in here

You just said that Taken will CoTH duck to rustle another guild. How is anyone supposed to take that? Do you not think that sort of behavior is detrimental?

Stellar of you to admit it, but it is still a problem.

[Ella`Ella]

You know, getting rid of CoTH ducking isn't the answer, it's addressing the problem that leads to coth ducking. We already know a tactic to replace coth ducking if that ever gets banned, which will just create a new problem. Focus on either making windows shorter or extending variance.

[Argh]

Variance being reduced won't happen. It's been poo pooed already.

There really isn't any reform, which can be easily regulated, that will render anything that remotely resembles racing.

[arsenalpow]

There really isn't any reform, which can be easily regulated, that will render anything that remotely resembles racing.

except you know removing the FFA cycle and making repops an actual FFA scenario, but that could potentially shave mobs off the class C factory assembly line, can't have that

[Erati]

You just said that Taken will CoTH duck to rustle another guild. How is anyone supposed to take that? Do you not think that sort of behavior is detrimental?

Stellar of you to admit it, but it is still a problem.

no I did not say Taken will do that to rustle another guild.

Some of our MEMBERS who track enjoy doing it.

Taken as a guild, which I have stated many many times, have never once asked anyone to do it.

and it was started as a JOKE not a strat.

[Amirite]

I think most people in this thread or that know me will tell you straight up I'm pretty open and truthful. There are other strategies and pulling methods that are even faster than the one I mentioned here. All those strategies can be curbed by implementing foot races and the few stipulations I mentioned.

right so TMO can keep a rez box on a "foot racer" closer to spawn of the mob, get FTE then say you ran the whole way? obviously with not needing to run fraps no one would have proof...even though we couldn't provide enough proof for TMO anyway possible other then being in the FTErs basement watching behind them with a video camera?

unless you specify every possible way to get around something in specific rules it will only go back to where we are now..

FFA sim repops again is less rules and petitions..less headaches and more fun.. (which is what we all want here and you have not said anything about that not being true.)

[Man0warr]

Removing coth ducking just makes the race a zoneline creeping, fastest SSD-having race.

[Erati]

You know, getting rid of CoTH ducking isn't the answer, it's addressing the problem that leads to coth ducking. We already know a tactic to replace coth ducking if that ever gets banned, which will just create a new problem. Focus on either making windows shorter or extending variance.

+1 I agree with Ella here.

I think the focus on COH and ducking, with fingers pointing directly at Taken is beyond absurd namely when we not only dont condone it, but support its removal.

How you 'remove it' is a little tricky bc I can only tell people what to do out there and everyone has some Dinacarls in their guild that just 'do their own thing' regardless if its something leadership wants to see happen.

We have broken zero rules tracking with our mages ( minus Sev gate but that was not a mage issue ).

[khanable]

You know, getting rid of CoTH ducking isn't the answer, it's addressing the problem that leads to coth ducking. We already know a tactic to replace coth ducking if that ever gets banned, which will just create a new problem. Focus on either making windows shorter or extending variance.

Would love to see a removal or reduction of variance.

Considering any changes to C/R/FFA, variance, etc, are off the table as per staff, what we're left with is player rules of engagement.

[Lazie]

right so TMO can keep a rez box on a "foot racer" closer to spawn of the mob, get FTE then say you ran the whole way? obviously with not needing to run fraps no one would have proof...even though we couldn't provide enough proof for TMO anyway possible other then being in the FTErs basement watching behind them with a video camera?

unless you specify every possible way to get around something in specific rules it will only go back to where we are now..

FFA sim repops again is less rules and petitions..less headaches and more fun.. (which is what we all want here and you have not said anything about that not being true.)

I really would love to borrow your Tinfoil Hat. It seems impressive.

[Amirite]

I really would love to borrow your Tinfoil Hat. It seems impressive.

still waiting on the answer.. obviously you don't have one.. saying you want my tinfoil hat only proves that i am indeed correct.

[Lazie]

Removing coth ducking just makes the race a zoneline creeping, fastest SSD-having race.

Not at all. Again Either say the Tree in EJ or CoM Zone line. Both are easy to police by the Racers. Every zone has a similar spot. Skyfire has a ramp. TD has Docks. KC has a corner you have to turn to head into the zone. SSD's don't make much of a difference in racing. They do in zoning.

[Ella`Ella]

right so TMO can keep a rez box on a "foot racer" closer to spawn of the mob, get FTE then say you ran the whole way? obviously with not needing to run fraps no one would have proof...even though we couldn't provide enough proof for TMO anyway possible other then being in the FTErs basement watching behind them with a video camera?

unless you specify every possible way to get around something in specific rules it will only go back to where we are now..

FFA sim repops again is less rules and petitions..less headaches and more fun.. (which is what we all want here and you have not said anything about that not being true.)


And yet another strategy emerges, further proving my point. Factioned cleric sits on spawn point with a player corpse, rezzes a player with DA idol and bam, FTE.

We're focusing on symptoms here, not the virus itself.

[Lazie]

still waiting on the answer.. obviously you don't have one.. saying you want my tinfoil hat only proves that i am indeed correct.

No. You just haven't paid attention much to this discussion. Stipulations are already proposed that stop what you presented easily.

[Erati]

And yet another strategy emerges, further proving my point. Factioned cleric sits on spawn point with a player corpse, rezzes a player with DA idol and bam, FTE.

We're focusing on symptoms here, not the virus itself.

would the clerics be ducking their res too?

Taken could get behind this...

:)

[Lazie]

would the clerics be ducking their res too?

Taken could get behind this...

:)

Don't even have to. Rez boxes stay up for 3 minutes. Just cast it every 3 minutes.

[Amirite]

No. You just haven't paid attention much to this discussion. Stipulations are already proposed that stop what you presented easily.

obviously i missed the stipulations...unless you're referring to the ones that say "yea guys, we wont lie, i promise"?

[Argh]

http://i.imgur.com/CslL7hx.png

[Ella`Ella]

http://i.imgur.com/CslL7hx.png

Actually LoL'd

[Lazie]

obviously i missed the stipulations...unless you're referring to the ones that say "yea guys, we wont lie, i promise"?

Mhm. 2 racers. 1 Tracker. Racers stand at the same starting line. Trackers track from the same spot. I am sure those trackers would see corpses if they existed.

[Amirite]

Mhm. 2 racers. 1 Tracker. Racers stand at the same starting line. Trackers track from the same spot. I am sure those trackers would see corpses if they existed.


that doesn't answer ANY stipulation...obviously keep the corpse out of site from them... duh

oh crap am i revealing all of TMOs strats here??

[Lazie]

that doesn't answer ANY stipulation...obviously keep the corpse out of site from them... duh

Oh man. Gee.. Why that totally makes sense... Those trackers from other guilds would never see you rezzing a corpse near them guys! Not to forget the number of corpses you have to summon to cover a mobs full window. They'd never see that!

[Amirite]

Oh man. Gee.. Why that totally makes sense... Those trackers from other guilds would never see you rezzing a corpse near them guys!


oh crap...lets put the corpse on the northern wall away from everyone and then when it spawns log the boxed cleric in ,rez the FTE Footracer then camp out .. no and still get there faster then the other Foot racers!


What an awesome strat.. again with no way to prove it.

[Lazie]

oh crap...lets put the corpse on the northern wall away from everyone and then when it spawns log the boxed cleric in ,rez the FTE Footracer then camp out .. no and still get there faster then the other Foot racers!


What an awesome strat.. again with no way to prove it.

Ok you have completely went off the deep end now. Mob windows are 16 hours. Corpse timers are 3. Do the math there good fella.

[Ella`Ella]

oh crap...lets put the corpse on the northern wall away from everyone and then when it spawns log the boxed cleric in ,rez the FTE Footracer then camp out .. no and still get there faster then the other Foot racers!


What an awesome strat.. again with no way to prove it.

Yea, being naked, encumbered and 15% health isn't a give-away at all.

Lazie, remember what we say about arguing with fools? When you do so, from a distance it's impossible to tell who the real fool is?

[Amirite]

Ok you have completely went off the deep end now. Mob windows are 16 hours. Corpse timers are 3. Do the math there good fella.


oh thanks for stating the obvious.. multiple FTErs that "switch out" man didn't think of that one

[Erati]

Ok its settled

Class R can test out the new 'racing' version of FTE competition in VP this weekend with an uncontested PD courtesy of TMO/IB.

The winner of the race gets to become a Class C guild

to the victor goes the spoils !

[Amirite]

Yea, being naked, encumbered and 15% health isn't a give-away at all.

Lazie, remember what we say about arguing with fools? When you do so, from a distance it's impossible to tell who the real fool is?


yea becouse the corpses would have the gear on them... its already been stated that they would use reapers to heal themselves and bards use songs that dont use mana to offset the encumbered. (prob will leave heavy bags on the corpses or put in bank)


you guys obviously already thought of all this and are totally mad for me giving your strats away that are "faster then coth ducking"

[Ella`Ella]

yea becouse the corpses would have the gear on them... its already been stated that they would use reapers to heal themselves and bards use songs that dont use mana to offset the encumbered. (prob will leave heavy bags on the corpses or put in bank)


you guys obviously already thought of all this and are totally mad for me giving your strats away that are "faster then coth ducking"

So, the person would already have their gear on them and be immediatley encumbered further and then the bard would have to be close enough for selos to hit, therefore the rez box port wouldn't matter? Or would the bard be rezzed, too?

I think I'm being trolled

[Lazie]

oh thanks for stating the obvious.. multiple FTErs that "switch out" man didn't think of that one

:rolleyes:

Oh man your delusions know no bounds.

[Lazie]

Yeah...Amirite is enjoying a good troll.

[Erati]

So, the person would already have their gear on them and be immediatley encumbered further and then the bard would have to be close enough for selos to hit, therefore the rez box port wouldn't matter? Or would the bard be rezzed, too?

I think I'm being trolled

Amirite is an ogre who is a troll at heart

Serious question tho since Lazie mentioned the Class C racing 'rules' are different.

What are the class C racing rules besides- run speed limit?

Naggy, Vox, CT and Talendor are all Class C this weekend....I am very much interested in seeing some fraps of how these races go down and what it looks like so everyone here pining for racing can at least see what it looks like at the top

It may look fun as hell and be a big WTF why arnt we doing that moment for everyone here

[Amirite]

So, the person would already have their gear on them and be immediatley encumbered further and then the bard would have to be close enough for selos to hit, therefore the rez box port wouldn't matter? Or would the bard be rezzed, too?

I think I'm being trolled


obviously the bard would be the foot racer...but you knew that already you're just being dumb.

Lazie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirite
oh thanks for stating the obvious.. multiple FTErs that "switch out" man didn't think of that one


Oh man your delusions know no bounds.

this is TMOs strat.. not mine

[Ella`Ella]

obviously the bard would be the foot racer...but you knew that already you're just being dumb.

So does the bard have the flux capacitor or does the corpse getting rezzed?

[Lazie]

obviously the bard would be the foot racer...but you knew that already you're just being dumb.



this is TMOs strat.. not mine

No. This is you continuing to type after common sense has already been applied to disprove your theories.

[Amirite]

No. This is you continuing to type after common sense has already been applied to disprove your theories.


what has been disproven? the only thing that has been proven is TMOs ability to push for their own agenda and not the servers

[Lazie]

Amirite is an ogre who is a troll at heart

Serious question tho since Lazie mentioned the Class C racing 'rules' are different.

What are the class C racing rules besides- run speed limit?

Naggy, Vox, CT and Talendor are all Class C this weekend....I am very much interested in seeing some fraps of how these races go down and what it looks like so everyone here pining for racing can at least see what it looks like at the top

It may look fun as hell and be a big WTF why arnt we doing that moment for everyone here

Outside of VP we use bards. Inside VP no run speed faster than SoW. You start where the current determined spots are to stand your FTE'rs on FFA spawns. I'm not sure if I have fraps of races outside of VP. There are a few floating around from inside.

[Lazie]

what has been disproven? the only thing that has been proven is TMOs ability to push for their own agenda and not the servers

If you say so. ;)

If we wanted things to be extreme there has already been one method mentioned in this thread that would do that. We don't.

[Erati]

Outside of VP we use bards. Inside VP no run speed faster than SoW. You start where the current determined spots are to stand your FTE'rs on FFA spawns. I'm not sure if I have fraps of races outside of VP. There are a few floating around from inside.

And the number of racers is unlimited currently for you guys?

I would like to see how in the world this works out for Naggy/Vox as those are train fests and COHing in actually makes them much cleaner in terms of the engage team

Sev/Fay/Tal are ideal for racing being an outdoor zone and roaming dragon

If one of your FTEers could fraps the Talendor race this weekend I think it would be good for everyone here to see what they are missing out on

[khanable]

If one of your FTEers could fraps the Talendor race this weekend I think it would be good for everyone here to see what they are missing out on

+1

[Amirite]

And the number of racers is unlimited currently for you guys?

I would like to see how in the world this works out for Naggy/Vox as those are train fests and COHing in actually makes them much cleaner in terms of the engage team

Sev/Fay/Tal are ideal for racing being an outdoor zone and roaming dragon

If one of your FTEers could fraps the Talendor race this weekend I think it would be good for everyone here to see what they are missing out on


I'm going to assume IF they release the fraps (which they wont) if will not show anything useful due to their inability to do (illegal) things when being watched from their point of view.

[Lazie]

And the number of racers is unlimited currently for you guys?

I would like to see how in the world this works out for Naggy/Vox as those are train fests and COHing in actually makes them much cleaner in terms of the engage team

Sev/Fay/Tal are ideal for racing being an outdoor zone and roaming dragon

If one of your FTEers could fraps the Talendor race this weekend I think it would be good for everyone here to see what they are missing out on

It's simple. The only barrier to getting to Naggy and Vox are mobs. 8 Fire Giants for Naggy. A level 60 shaman,chanter and Monk can deal with those while the rest of the raid engages the Dragon. The more 60s you have the easier they are to deal with, but it only takes those 3. Vox is the same but with more in her lair to deal with. Common sense can be applied with how to deal with them easily.

You also just have to clear those giants in Solb one time before Naggy goes in window and not have to worry about them for a long time. I doubt we prioritize Tal this weekend, but if we do I will see if the person on it will fraps it. We honestly rarely have more than 2 or 3 people on the races outside of VP per guild.

[heartbrand]

Man velious is going to be terrible on blue

[Amirite]

It's simple. The only barrier to getting to Naggy and Vox are mobs. 8 Fire Giants for Naggy. A level 60 shaman,chanter and Monk can deal with those while the rest of the raid engages the Dragon.


your FFA strat is to train them on the other guilds becouse they can't prove TMO did it

but i'm sure thats how you do it when its IB vs TMO

[Daldaen]

Okay Unbrella is right, sort of.

Increasing Variance will not stop poopsocking. It will just further alienate Class R guilds. Class C continues to sock with long windows, as was evidence of the raid scene a year ago.

Decrease Variance will only stop poopsocking if we can work together to make a palletable raid scene:



30-60min windows.
2 Foot Racers, 1 Tracker allowed
Foot Racers only have SoW - No selos, cheetah, scale, wolf form.
All agree to starting points. I will MSPaint the starting lines and post shall be stickied.
Foot Racers should either snap a quick screenshot of everyone at the kickoff / FRAPs the race if you're concerned about someone skirting the rules.
If someone gains FTE who is not those players, the violating guild is suspended for 2 weeks. (Obviously after the first engage and say a guild wipes, if FTE is then obtained by a non foot racer fine)
No guild may have more than 6 players in zone (to allow for some buffing/camping out?) and ideally just temporarily when it is in window/spawns. Also allows for apps to get exp in a random group in zone without penalizing... But prevents socking entire raids at KC entrance
Trakanon needs its own considerations.

So... If we cannot have Respawns, tell me what is bad about the above.

[Lazie]

your FFA strat is to train them on the other guilds becouse they can't prove TMO did it

but i'm sure thats how you do it when its IB vs TMO

Ok...You can just leave this thread if you want to continue posting false information. Trains do happen from all guilds on every engage in the game when players who are new at it make mistakes. No one denies that. Ask the guilds we have raided around how many times we have given up mobs when these things Happen.

IB- has gotten several mobs we surrendered when we made mistakes.
Taken- Got a VS

These are the ones I know about. I was away for a month or two so if any happened while I was away I wouldn't know about them. I know of 8 or 9 situations where we gave other guilds mobs or didn't attempt mobs because of our errors. That is the most on the server btw. US trying to make things right.

[khanable]

So... If we cannot have Respawns, tell me what is bad about the above.

Nothing. GM's said no to a reduction in variance, but if it was lowered and the guilds all stopped being dildo's and came to a reasonable set of engagement rules it would go a long way.

[Erati]

30-60min windows.
2 Foot Racers, 1 Tracker allowed
Foot Racers only have SoW - No selos, cheetah, scale, wolf form.
All agree to starting points. I will MSPaint the starting lines and post shall be stickied.
Foot Racers should either snap a quick screenshot of everyone at the kickoff / FRAPs the race if you're concerned about someone skirting the rules.
If someone gains FTE who is not those players, the violating guild is suspended for 2 weeks. (Obviously after the first engage and say a guild wipes, if FTE is then obtained by a non foot racer fine)
No guild may have more than 6 players in zone (to allow for some buffing/camping out?) and ideally just temporarily when it is in window/spawns. Also allows for apps to get exp in a random group in zone without penalizing... But prevents socking entire raids at KC entrance
Trakanon needs its own considerations.

So... If we cannot have Respawns, tell me what is bad about the above.

Racing works better in some zones than others, but I guess thats part of the 'fun' of racing namely each race has its own unique strats and differences to overcome

Its certainly worth a closer look, and I would love to see some footage of races outside of VP bc some zones would be a cluster F to race tru

[Lazie]

Okay Unbrella is right, sort of.

Increasing Variance will not stop poopsocking. It will just further alienate Class R guilds. Class C continues to sock with long windows, as was evidence of the raid scene a year ago.

Decrease Variance will only stop poopsocking if we can work together to make a palletable raid scene:



30-60min windows.
2 Foot Racers, 1 Tracker allowed
Foot Racers only have SoW - No selos, cheetah, scale, wolf form.
All agree to starting points. I will MSPaint the starting lines and post shall be stickied.
Foot Racers should either snap a quick screenshot of everyone at the kickoff / FRAPs the race if you're concerned about someone skirting the rules.
If someone gains FTE who is not those players, the violating guild is suspended for 2 weeks. (Obviously after the first engage and say a guild wipes, if FTE is then obtained by a non foot racer fine)
No guild may have more than 6 players in zone (to allow for some buffing/camping out?) and ideally just temporarily when it is in window/spawns. Also allows for apps to get exp in a random group in zone without penalizing... But prevents socking entire raids at KC entrance
Trakanon needs its own considerations.

So... If we cannot have Respawns, tell me what is bad about the above.


Looks pretty good to me. I'd say not a 2 week suspension. Maybe the guild has to sit out the next FFA cycle of that mob. If they make a mistake on one they can't compete on the next. We can probably push it to two if you feel that is too light.

[Lazie]

Only reason I say 1 FFA cycle is... I'd hate a new guild to step in to attempt it and make a mistake first shot and have to skip 2 cycles of FFA on a mob their guild prioritizes.

[Daldaen]

Only reason I say 1 FFA cycle is... I'd hate a new guild to step in to attempt it and make a mistake first shot and have to skip 2 cycles of FFA on a mob their guild prioritizes.

I could deal with that I suppose.

If you do it more than once though, more harsh things like full raid suspension for all targets etc.

[Amirite]

Ok...You can just leave this thread if you want to continue posting false information. Trains do happen from all guilds on every engage in the game when players who are new at it make mistakes. No one denies that. Ask the guilds we have raided around how many times we have given up mobs when these things Happen.

IB- has gotten several mobs we surrendered when we made mistakes.
Taken- Got a VS

These are the ones I know about. I was away for a month or two so if any happened while I was away I wouldn't know about them. I know of 8 or 9 situations where we gave other guilds mobs or didn't attempt mobs because of our errors. That is the most on the server btw. US trying to make things right.

you obviously missed the part where i said becouse it couldn't be proven, you need to read better.

Taken got the VS becouse it was undeniable proof (and only got that when we showed you the fraps, you didn't admit to it until after..) i'm sure IB is well aware of all TMOs tricks to train ...

and this is a public discussion.. make a post that matters in the raid discussion thread if you dont want me telling the truth here.

[Lazie]

I could deal with that I suppose.

If you do it more than once though, more harsh things like full raid suspension for all targets etc.

I think we are on a good track here. I don't think an issue has ever come up on these races between us and IB where a person not at ZI got FTE. So I'm not to against this. People just need to know to keep their trackers out of FTE range really. Alright heading home from work. Be back in a bit.

[Daldaen]

Nothing. GM's said no to a reduction in variance, but if it was lowered and the guilds all stopped being dildo's and came to a reasonable set of engagement rules it would go a long way.

Think they would still say no if this agreement is made though?

Poopsocking is a symptom of the windows.

If people can agree to number in zone/tagging and the time spent on those trackers/taggers is drastically reduced. You'll see far more guilds competing, and less poopsocking (because aforementioned agreement).

If we do the agreement, and variance isn't reduced, it may help Taken/BDA. But I'm not sure who else would enter the fray with 1 tracker, 2 taggers for a 16 hour window.

[Tameth]

holy shit. move this thread to rnf. play red to avoid 46 pages of bullshit.

[Daldaen]

I think the variance should be adjusted so that the mob doesn't spawn on the same time of day on the exact same day each week.

this could be done by either adding or subtracting the hour but not varying on both sides.

people play on this server at different time zones and days. don't alienate them by pigeon-holding spawns to the same day and time each week.

Fair point. So that it gets forcibly pushing in one direction?

So like... 7 Days + 0-60 min? Instead of 7 Days +/- 30 min?

Or is there some better way to make sure it doesn't alienate euros or asian time zone people?

[Daldaen]

holy shit. move this thread to rnf. play red to avoid 46 pages of bullshit.

lol what?

This is the most civil point of the conversation. We are at a point of agreement. This isn't /disc and chain stun someone to steal 37k from them bad... Like your recent experience on red...

Don't turn into that guy tamtam. We don't need more "join red" forumquesters. Swish fills in enough for the entire population there.

[Juryiel]

Fair point. So that it gets forcibly pushing in one direction?

So like... 7 Days + 0-60 min? Instead of 7 Days +/- 30 min?

Or is there some better way to make sure it doesn't alienate euros or asian time zone people?

If you wanted to do this you would need to change the mean spawn time such that it is not a multiple of some number of days, not the +/- (which is what adding the 'variance' one sided does, it makes it a spawn of every 7 days 30 mins +/- 30 mins, or 7.02 days +/- 30 min)

So rather than every 7 days + one-sided variance, you could think of it as spawn every 7.358 days +/- whatever variance you want.

[Tameth]

One particle of unobtainium has a nuclear reaction with the flux capacitor - carry the '2' - changing its atomic isotoner into a radioactive spider. Fuck you, Science!

[G13]

40+ pages of tarded

[Daldaen]

One particle of unobtainium has a nuclear reaction with the flux capacitor - carry the '2' - changing its atomic isotoner into a radioactive spider. Fuck you, Science!

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/fuck-you-science.jpg

That's how I felt after these 40 pages.

Especially if we can get this agreement signed by everyone and variance cut down to non-retarded levels.

[G13]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/fuck-you-science.jpg

That's how I felt after these 40 pages.

Especially if we can get this agreement signed by everyone and variance cut down to non-retarded levels.

Why don't you guys direct all the energy you use on the sock to developing a real classic server where there is no variance

Variance isn't Classic

[khanable]

Think they would still say no if this agreement is made though?

I dunno, I was under the assumption no means no.

[Lazie]

I'm just going to stop you right here. Nothing you ever say on this forum ever again can be taken seriously as of this moment.

The barrier exists because of people like you having an overt policy of intentionally blocking (by way of *repeatedly BREAKING rules*) other guilds from beating you to a target you want.

False. Ask the GM's how many times they have had to investigate anything I have done. I go out of my way to not break a rule. It has cost me FTE a couple times because I don't push the rules. I am one of the first people to always say stop on mobs where something we as a guild may have done something questionable.

I am one of the first people to always shutdown yelling about something another guild "May" have done wrong. Ask my guildies. Ask former guildies of mine in other guilds. I don't promote petitionquest and I go out of my way to take myself out of an encounter if it's even remotely questionable I did something wrong. I have presented anything that might be questionable to GMs before I put them into practice. Derubel can confirm this.

You call our people cheaters when your people *break the rules on purpose*.

You try to muscle in and tweak the rules to allow your mage army to give you a tactical edge on the Trak engage race and then you cry when we incorporate your coth tactic for Sev and win the very next day.

False. Find anywhere in this thread or previously where I try to tweak rules for an advantage. The only thing I want to see at this point of Kunark is a more open raid scene with Velious so close. Let everyone race in fun with lower windows without having to stare at screens so long.

Taunting, "lol compete harder" on the forums and then crying, "GM, GM! Taken isn't playing fair!" when we succeed is a double standard, and is precisely why many people hate you.

Anddd...False.

I didn't whine in this thread. I made points for a change that would make things more enjoyable for folks. I did point to things in the FFA cycle that have occurred, but I never said it ruined anything and I didn't whine. It made everyone work more yes and that was fine with me. I just think it can be more fun with the changes I presented.


As for the rest of you... All of this forum whining is ridiculous. Grow up.

Remove variance. Set classic spawn timers. Ban anyone who breaks a rule permanently (not this stupid 2 week raid suspension crap).

Whining while saying other people are whining. Please just stop.

[Komodon]

It happened as a JOKE. 2 hrs left for Naggy Breaken ( calling you out father of CoH ducking ) decided it would be funny to 'pump fake' TMO and he casted COH then stopped it.

Well TMO's mages there got scared at the thought Taken might have a 5 sec head start than them so they started doing it too.....



Prior to playing on p99 i actually spent a few years playing/raiding with Breaken in a pretty close knit guild. Having obviously gone our separate ways since then, on multiple occasions now he's always made it a point to express his distaste for TMO, under the usual claims that our play style ruins the server.

Reading that i can now firmly place the blame of coth ducking at his feet just made my night. For that you have my thanks :)

[Komodon]

Finally an answer! thank you!

Well, kind of an answer. What I was asking about was if that mage CoH'd in your FTE'r or if your FTE'rs foot-raced from the zone in. Surely someone knows!
You guys are good at dodging the question at the heart of the matter. You almost had me for a split second there.

I get you are fishing there, but in the process you are also completely overestimating the actual amount of effort/planning that goes into that tracking. Shortly before an FFA window opens somebody runs a mage over to track, sets up the link.....and that is the tracker team/characters people will log in/out of for the duration. So yeah, cothed was used (we also got the fte, but the batphone was down and nobody got it until 30 min latter. They died. Fun times for Visceral getting to explain to everybody logging in that VS was already dead :)).

I will again state though that from a personal standpoint, and on a purely logistics level, i am actually an overall fan of mage tracking (my reasons why stated in the raid forum). Minus the ducking of course. But with that i also completely understand where people like Pint are coming from, and despite some people's attempts to ignore it, won't dismiss the Class C sample size offering evidence that Lazie's racing suggestion here not only works....but people by and large seem to find it a lot more enjoyable. Which ultimately trumps my own individual preference (<3 Lazie).

For the record, my overall intent in the raid forum wasn't to completely demonize Taken in this either. At least to an extent that somehow suggests Class C does not play it's own role in upping the ante high enough that it ends up discouraging smaller Class R guilds from participating, and certainly not to the extent of claiming that without Taken FFA would be "working as intended". Anybody keeping count on the overall participation level we've seen from Class R since day 1 can see it's clearly not. With or without the coth ducking.

But that just brings me to what Unbrella helped remind me of the other night, and why i'll probably choose to not bother with that thread again. Daldaen, i admire the effort here but you are ultimately overlooking the biggest factor of all. That being the people who would represent Class R as a whole and need to sign off on this type of proposal...have never shown any interest in doing so. Same as it was back when i tried to float these general ideas past them before..to this day it's all (more uncontested from Class C VS/CT/Inny for them) or nothing. Which is why if/when Chest reads this post and replies tomorrow, you'll see a lot more of the same "TMO is the devil, held the server hostage for years, ecttt" talk, and additional emphasize on why FFA on respawns is the only solution for everybody. What you probably won't and i'd be shocked to see is him doing what you are trying to do now. Spending more then a single second taking the focus off what we'll likely never agree on, and instead turning that to what we might/could. Ultimately making whether FFA spawns could exist in a much more desirable state that includes us regularly co-existing irrelevant...he simply sees no "win" to be had in that.

With that i'll say the same thing i said back when the current rules went in. Those Class R leaders fought the good fight for you guys, and despite giving up more then we wanted to give, overall i believe the server walked out for the better in the aftermath. But my god...cut the heads off those guilds for even a day after-the-fact, put Unbrella/Erati/Cucumbers/myself in a vent together, and i have zero doubt walking out of that discussion the FFA raiding game looks much different then what you see today. Starting with the death of in-game poopsocks, and the need for more then an absolute minimum amount of variance.

[arsenalpow]

Cucs is not an officer of BDA.

Also, I've worked in good faith this entire time while you're allowing Shinko to resurrect FE so they can crash the Class R rotation system. Talking out of both sides of your mouth yet again.

[khanable]

That being the people who would represent Class R as a whole and need to sign off on this type of proposal...have never shown any interest in doing so.

TMO and IB both spoke to me about trying to get accessible raid engagement rules set in stone when this CoTH ducking crap started (this was back when I was on the R forums + an officer of BDA). Yes, the reason nothing got anywhere is because a few entities in R would rather see FFA be shit than do anything that is a net gain for TMO/IB (despite it being a net gain for everyone).

It was pretty sad honestly.

[arsenalpow]

TMO and IB both spoke to me about trying to get accessible raid engagement rules set in stone when this CoTH ducking crap started. Yes, the reason nothing got anywhere is because a few entities in R would rather see FFA be shit than do anything that is a net gain for TMO/IB (despite it being a net gain for everyone).

It was pretty sad honestly.

Cucs we just had this conversation yesterday! CotH ducking, foot races, it doesn't matter. The fundamental problem is the socking. Foot races may be more palatable than using mages but it doesn't change the fact that you'll still need a raid force sitting and waiting for up to 16 hours to capitalize on the FTE. There has to be sweeping changes not just swapping one shitty option for another slightly less shitty option.

[khanable]

Cucs we just had this conversation yesterday! CotH ducking, foot races, it doesn't matter. The fundamental problem is the socking. Foot races may be more palatable than using mages but it doesn't change the fact that you'll still need a raid force sitting and waiting for up to 16 hours to capitalize on the FTE. There has to be sweeping changes not just swapping one shitty option for another slightly less shitty option.

I'll agree socking is an issue due to long windows. I won't agree to the foot race = coth ducking = it's all bad rhetoric. Ya'll won't even come to the table to talk about it because something something fuck TMO/IB we'd rather propose this option that fucks C out of x% mobs and fuck them if they won't work with us and something something stop demonizing us for maintaining a shitty FFA scene while not even being willing to try to talk about resolutions unless it benefits us massively blah blah blah

[Ella`Ella]

Cucs is not an officer of BDA.

Also, I've worked in good faith this entire time while you're allowing Shinko to resurrect FE so they can crash the Class R rotation system. Talking out of both sides of your mouth yet again.

No. You don't work with Class-C in good faith and any of your officers can confirm that as they repeatedly express their embarrassment of your behavior and apologize to me for it every time I leave vent with you.

Also, Shinko asked you for information on joining the rotation and you told him to fuck off.

TL;DR - Make Cucs guild leader.

[arsenalpow]

I'll agree socking is an issue due to long windows. I won't agree to the foot race = coth ducking = it's all bad rhetoric. Ya'll won't even come to the table to talk about it because something something fuck TMO/IB we'd rather propose this option that fucks C out of x% mobs and fuck them if they won't work with us and something something stop demonizing us for maintaining a shitty FFA scene while not even being willing to try to talk about resolutions unless it benefits us massively blah blah blah

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

[khanable]

my final thoughts: it's admirable R will look out for each other in the way they do

but when it comes to working with C, you guys really need to stop worrying about what will benefit them and what will benefit you and instead focus on 'what is fair to both parties that benefits us all?'

if you guys came to the table keeping the division of mobs the same and had some ideas about variance reduction/removal of overlap, without trying to get something more out of it, you might actually get somewhere.

also Chest I'm not just directing all these posts at just you - I know you've conceded C should have their fair stake, but R as a whole isn't on that level yet

[arsenalpow]

No. You don't work with Class-C in good faith and any of your officers can confirm that as they repeatedly express their embarrassment of your behavior and apologize to me for it every time I leave vent with you.

Also, Shinko asked you for information on joining the rotation and you told him to fuck off.

TL;DR - Make Cucs guild leader.

Of course I told him to fuck off. Why should class C have an alt guild just to continue fucking with class R?? Why can't you just go fight IB and leave the rest of the server alone? Do you not see how absolutely mental this entire thing is?? You already have 75% of the mobs to fight over but you want to sanction an alt guild to go gouge another chunk out of the remaining 25% that 10 guilds are already splitting?

[khanable]

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

So here is the issue

C/R means less for C, no matter how much less

C/C/R means less for R, no matter how much less

Don't write these gains/loses off as trivial - you guys can figure out a way to keep them equal. Get that out of the way and then move onto the other issues.

[arsenalpow]

So here is the issue

C/R means less for C, no matter how much less

C/C/R means less for R, no matter how much less

Don't write these gains/loses off as trivial - you guys can figure out a way to keep them equal. Get that out of the way and then move onto the other issues.

I'm not writing them off as trivial but the Class C side has the leverage because they know if they do nothing the status quo remains and they'll still get their 75%. Throughout the history of this server the hardcore side has only done what was best for the minority of hardcore players.

BDA could have had that same mindset and just ran roughshod over the class R system, get as much as possible, but we along with the other guilds wanted to make changes and we've effectively done so to the detriment of our possible pixel gains. In fact we're still mocked for raiding in this fashion to the point where TMO is allowing an alt guild to exist for the sole purpose of wrecking this effort.

Unbrella, do you even care what happens to this server? Because constantly shitting on the playerbase taking taking taking taking and giving no fucks has been the usual message the hardcore players have had since day 1.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I don't want anything to benefit class R massively!! I even concede the point that class C should get more loot if they want to dedicate more extreme amounts of time.

In the current system class C is getting 75% for the raid targets when you include the class C share, the 90% of FFA mobs they take down, and 100% of VP targets. If we changed the entire system to C/R and FFA on repops while keeping the current bag limits and keeping VP a class C playground class C would still get 65-70% of the kills.

Everyone keeps saying sweeping changes are off the table, but if ALL the guilds came together for the first time in server history I'm confident changes could be made. Unprecedented cooperation would spur unprecedented action.

The counter to this Unbrella generously offered to make it C/C/R which then be more like 80% of the kills for class C, but hey at least we don't have any overlap between tiers right?

I want things to be better, I'm working in good faith but so far I've only seen class C say "you can just concede everything and that would be fine" or they've stamped off on an alt guild to crash the class R rotation for the sheer purpose of undermining the system currently implemented.

What else can I do to fix this?? I'm trying here man. This isn't rhetoric, these are all facts.

Maybe it's just early, but can you explain how a C/FFA/R system results in more than class C guilds getting more than 66% of total mobs? Even on repops the R mobs are protected...

[arsenalpow]

Maybe it's just early, but can you explain how a C/FFA/R system results in more than class C guilds getting more than 66% of total mobs? Even on repops the R mobs are protected...

I did the math before, I think it was earlier in this thread even, but assuming there's 4 repops a month (I know, magical ChristmasLand) class C is getting 1/3 of the normal pops, 90% of anything FFA, and 100% of VP mobs (that's 48 potential kills right there) which is basically 75% of all potential kills. Plus, I didn't even factor in efreetis in sky.

[khanable]

Maybe it's just early, but can you explain how a C/FFA/R system results in more than class C guilds getting more than 66% of total mobs? Even on repops the R mobs are protected...

He considers VP mobs in his equations which in all honesty probably unnecessarily complicates the math

[arsenalpow]

Here it is (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1660563&postcount=194). This was back of the envelope math assuming some perfect world conditions.

[Frieza_Prexus]

they know if they do nothing the status quo remains and they'll still get their 75%. Throughout the history of this server the hardcore side has only done what was best for the minority of hardcore players.

To be fair, this was entirely Catherin's (and several other Class R guilds) approach when these talks were originally stalling and Class C was desperately looking to move things forward.

[arsenalpow]

To be fair, this was entirely Catherin's (and several other Class R guilds) approach when these talks were originally stalling and Class C was desperately looking to move things forward.

I respect your opinion but I think you're incorrect. All sides were at fault to be frank. Not reaching a resolution meant that everyone would miss out, but now in this situation the status quo will remain which leaves class C largely unaffected. I get that position, why change if you don't have to? The change would be what's best for the server, not just what's best for the 10-15% of the server that belongs to TMO/IB

[Ella`Ella]

Unbrella, do you even care what happens to this server? Because constantly shitting on the playerbase taking taking taking taking and giving no fucks has been the usual message the hardcore players have had since day 1.

I'm not here to discuss what I believe in or my vision for the server, which is much different than you think it is. What I am here to do is represent the interests of Class-C in the most mutually favorable and accommodating way to Class-R.

[Breaken]

Mazam,

Prior to playing on p99 i actually spent a few years playing/raiding with Breaken in a pretty close knit guild.

Yes, we absolutely did.

Having obviously gone our separate ways since then, on multiple occasions now he's always made it a point to express his distaste for TMO, under the usual claims that our play style ruins the server.

What on earth are you even talking about? I have seen you in game... twice? Once was while tracking Faydedar, where all we talked about was Razzari and Elyda.

I have once told you that I no longer want to spend 8 hours a day raiding on this 15 year old game. That must be what you are referring to.

[Erati]

my final thoughts: it's admirable R will look out for each other in the way they do

but when it comes to working with C, you guys really need to stop worrying about what will benefit them and what will benefit you and instead focus on 'what is fair to both parties that benefits us all?'

if you guys came to the table keeping the division of mobs the same and had some ideas about variance reduction/removal of overlap, without trying to get something more out of it, you might actually get somewhere.

also Chest I'm not just directing all these posts at just you - I know you've conceded C should have their fair stake, but R as a whole isn't on that level yet

I have two threads open on our boards talking about trying out a race here in the near future

I completely agree with Chest that trading off 1 form of poopsock for another doesnt 'fix' anything just makes it different however.....

Sometimes different could be more fun, and if we can have more fun while we work on a BIGGER MORE REAL change like R/C FFA on repops or something close to that which revolves around shorter variance, less socking etc etc etc

then that is the ultimate goal.

[Erati]

Mazam,



Yes, we absolutely did.



What on earth are you even talking about? I have seen you in game... twice? Once was while tracking Faydedar, where all we talked about was Razzari and Elyda.

I have once told you that I no longer want to spend 8 hours a day raiding on this 15 year old game. That must be what you are referring to.

notice no denial of Fathering COH ducking :D <3 Breaken

[Breaken]

Oh, I definitely started it. I have no problem admitting it. As Eratani said though, I did it as a joke, and whoever was on Onyxheart at the time got all freaked out, and started doing the same, over and over.

[arsenalpow]

I'm not here to discuss what I believe in or my vision for the server, which is much different than you think it is. What I am here to do is represent the interests of Class-C in the most mutually favorable and accommodating way to Class-R.

So what so you consider mutually favorable? So far the only solutions I've seen from your side is footrace rules for the FFA cycle or having class R completely concede FFA making it C/C/R. Those solutions won't change the culture.

[Breaken]

I wasn't going to post here, but now I started...

Lazie,

Calling foot races a competition is absurd. It is the same "luck" as cothing. Who will hit that autorun first!? Who will be that millimeter closer (because let's all be honest, there is no way in hell everyone will be 100% on top of each other) so their range attack hits first!?

This will not stop the socking. Even by saying you can only have 3 in the zone, that just means there will be 40 on the other side of the zone. Nice solution.

[Daldaen]

Ideal case no one will sock on the other side of the zone and if they are, should raid suspend.

I put the 6-man cap to allow someone who arrived just before window or mid window for a camp out to get a quick symbol/hero from a camped cleric and then camp themselves.

The ultimate goal of what I suggested is to get rid of poopsocking with an entire force:

Foot racing allows for this somewhat. CotHing is a quick cast then run back to camp. Foot race is a run to the mob AND back. This allows for more time for people to log in, etc. Which allows you for greater success without poopsocking. That goes for all guilds.

And hopefully after its succes, it will show the devs we can handle ourselves and not sock, to warrant very small variance.

Very small variance is the absolute most crucial end goal here. If there were very small variance that meant we would only be tracking for an hour before spawn or less EVERY mob, WAYYY more guilds would partake in the FFA scene, which will be more fun for everyone competing.

FFA respawns would still provide a better form of competition. But a foot race with small windows can make the competition less neckbeardy and still somewhat of a rush to setup and engages a mob.

[arsenalpow]

Having fully buffed forces camped out is just another form of socking Daldaen, we moved it from the spawn point, to the zoneline, to the next zone over, to the login screen. It doesn't change anything.

Full FFA repop means you need to mobilize unless you plan on putting fully buffed raid forces at 9 world spawn locations (Seb, KC, EJ, Skyfire, TD, Feerott, Perma, WC, SolB)

[Ella`Ella]

Full FFA repop means you need to mobilize unless you plan on putting fully buffed raid forces at 9 world spawn locations (Seb, KC, EJ, Skyfire, TD, Feerott, Perma, WC, SolB)

Which IB and TMO are capable of doing this for several spawns locations each per guild. How does your plan curb this?

[arsenalpow]

Which IB and TMO are capable of doing this for several spawns locations each per guild. How does your plan curb this?

Well a bag limit helps. I think the 2 kill bag limit has been one of the successful points of the current system.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Well a bag limit helps. I think the 2 kill bag limit has been one of the successful points of the current system.

That doesn't sound very ffa :3

[Erati]

Having fully buffed forces camped out is just another form of socking Daldaen, we moved it from the spawn point, to the zoneline, to the next zone over, to the login screen. It doesn't change anything.

Full FFA repop means you need to mobilize unless you plan on putting fully buffed raid forces at 9 world spawn locations (Seb, KC, EJ, Skyfire, TD, Feerott, Perma, WC, SolB)

people dont want to stop socking, they just want a different version of FFA

your vision is not only a different version of FFA but it ends socking all together, its beautiful really

[Erati]

That doesn't sound very ffa :3

FFA = Fun For All

[thieros]

Equip every raid mob with CT like DT random for anyone in zone including trackers. whoever the mob spawns and DT's is the guild with FTE. From there they have 5 minutes to launch an attempt. Failure = clean agro list/reset. Upon reset, another DT random selector fires off to choose a second FTE guild. Boom

[Erati]

Equip every raid mob with CT like DT random for anyone in zone including trackers. whoever the mob spawns and DT's is the guild with FTE. From there they have 5 minutes to launch an attempt. Failure = clean agro list/reset. Upon reset, another DT random selector fires off to choose a second FTE guild. Boom

so the people with IP exemptions and a second computer can track all day !

[Daldaen]

Having fully buffed forces camped out is just another form of socking Daldaen, we moved it from the spawn point, to the zoneline, to the next zone over, to the login screen. It doesn't change anything.

Full FFA repop means you need to mobilize unless you plan on putting fully buffed raid forces at 9 world spawn locations (Seb, KC, EJ, Skyfire, TD, Feerott, Perma, WC, SolB)

I agree 100% Chest.

--in before someone makes a sig of this--

However it sounds like FFA repops are off the table. And in an environment of adults where we must compromise, sometimes things that we want the most are taken off the table so we must make do with what is available.

2 Foot Racers, 1 Tracker. Allow for up to 6 in zone when mob spawns (allowing for camp outs, buffing, and the random app or alt EXPing in KC or SEB etc. But preventing full poopsocks)
Designated starting areas. I will make a post about this (sorry I didn't last night worked til midnight)
SoW only on racers. No Selos, Cheetah (looking at you Warrior Sky shoulders), wolf form or spirit of scale.
Foot racers take a screenshot right after the race starts or fraps their race if there is a concern of someone not following the rules
Any guild who gets FTE on a character not in the above screenshots, is suspended for 1 week first offense, more serious suspensions if repeat offenses.
No poopsocking on other sides of zones.

In this compromise, everyone agrees to stop CotHing which most everyone hates. Everyone agrees to stop the full on poopsocks (yes, they are moved to the login screen but it does not require you sit at your computer for 16 hours... You can respond to a batphone)

After a test period of this, GMs should examine it, realize we for once were able to be adults and agree. Stop the poopsocking (limiting it to some trackers), and then from this agree to reduce Variance to a small window of 30-60minutes.

In this compromise:

Class R is conceding to stay with a C/R/FFA rotation which seems to be somewhat disliked by R. Also Class R agrees to stop CotH ducking which is hated by Class C. All other proposals would net R more mobs through default and less to Class C.
Class C is conceding to stop the poopsocking, allow for a lower barrier of entry, and much lower variance times (which does benefit them, however they are the main force that is willing to track for 16 hour windows... When the windows are an hour there will be more competition and it will likely lose them FFA targets... But this is a compromise they are willing to make based off what I've read here)

The gains:

No one has to CotH duck again
No one has to poopsock to get targets
Variance reduced means people don't have to waste entire days waiting to contest a mob. They can camp a toon out at night and the next morning between 8-9 wait for a batphone and hope to kill it. If they get it great, if not they can move their room to another camp or go on a group/exp/farm/TS etc. Without hanging up their toons for long periods of time
Class R has a higher chance of FFA targets with smaller variance
Class C gets more competition to contest against in terms they are already used to and accept (foot racing)


The take aways from this, variance MUST be reduced to see any benefit to Class R guilds who want to join the FFA scene but don't want to sit around for 16 hours. Everyone MUST agree to stop poopsocking for the aforementioned variance reduction to be on the table. Everyone MUST agree to play by the rules i listed and not petition quest, otherwise again, variance reduction off the table.

This benefits everyone in some way or another. Whether you get chances at mobs without having to sock for 16 hours or getting 15 hours that you would've soent socking, back and allow you to do other more productive/fun things with your time while still being able to compete.

Please, agree to this. Understand both sides are making concessions, and it leads to both being better off because of it.

GMs - Please see the effort we are trying to put forth. Let us trial this. And see how we reduce socking and have a more civil raid scene. Give us a more classic variance (see very very small), and let us all live together in harmony.

Amen.

[khanable]

No one stops poopsocking. No one.

It's a way of life - if people want something, they are going to wait for it.

Abolishing or reducing variance will just contain poopsocking in a more manageable time slot. Please staff, help us poopsock responsibly.

http://i.imgur.com/c9uC8b8.jpg

[Erati]

Daldaen

Protector of the Planes and creator of the Walls O Text.

[Daldaen]

Daldaen

Protector of the Planes and creator of the Walls O Text.

Yes. But read my wall of text. Don't tl;dr it.

It is important, for the health of the server until winter comes.

[Ella`Ella]

Make it simpler;

Shorter Variance
Longer windows
You can have as many people as you want in the zone tracking/buffing or whatever - however when the mob pops, any char in that zone can't appear on encounter log.

I could work with you towards this.

[khanable]

Shorter Variance
Longer windows


i'm not usually exceedingly stupid but I do not understand

[Daldaen]

i'm not usually exceedingly stupid but I do not understand

This.

Shorter Variance, means shorter windows. That's the whole goal.

So that more Class R guilds may be tempted to compete on FFA and perhaps join Class C.
So that more Class C players may be able to actually play the game during windows and only track for an hour at a time without having to waste their entire day(s) doing it.

[Daldaen]

As for your other point, that goes against the removal of socking to an extent. And comes down to a Solid State Harddrive race on who can log in their camped FTEer fastest.

The footrace suggestion removes that and it becomes a test of whose tracker is most attentive and whose footracer takes the best path / coordinates with the tracker on pathing movements of an outdoor dragon.

[Erati]

however when the mob pops, any char in that zone can't appear on encounter log.


As bad as poopsocking is....having the 'poopsock' be 1 zone over where those with the fastest zoning PCs 'win' is not where we want to go

Login screen, 1 zone over, in zone all the same

limit your in zone presence to your 'buff group' and that is it.

What would hypothetically happen tho if someone from your guild was zoning in to camp out, pushing your total to 7 the instant it popped.

This is a player made agreement being worked on, how do we police situations such as this as there wont be a petition for it.

Its pretty harmless event, would contain a bunch of QQ since 'it didnt affect the race' as the dude was just camping out, but where is the line drawn?

[Daldaen]

Drawn at 6 period. So don't sit at 6 for a long period of time or even 5. Just camp out and be done with it. You should only have your 2 racers and tracker. Anyone else should be camping out or getting buffs for 30s and camping.

When it's a small window you can get people camped out early on, and only a few stragglers would show up during window.

[Ella`Ella]

As for your other point, that goes against the removal of socking to an extent. And comes down to a Solid State Harddrive race on who can log in their camped FTEer fastest.



Don't you think it's more important to worry about fixing some underlying 'problem' that is causing socking rather than worrying about whether or not people are playing Everquest on a calculator or Falcon-nw.com.

I'd rather someone having a SSD or being Rogean's roommate as the 'X' factor in raiding that auto-fire/poopsocking/1000 alts, etc...

[khanable]

Don't you think it's more important to worry about fixing some underlying 'problem' that is causing socking rather than worrying about whether or not people are playing Everquest on a calculator or Falcon-nw.com.

I'd rather someone having a SSD or being Rogean's roommate as the 'X' factor in raiding that auto-fire/poopsocking/1000 alts, etc...

Agree

and everyone is able to use ramdisk if it really means that much to you

Anywho - I still don't get what you mean by lower variance and increased windows, can you explain this to me like I'm an ogre?