Stop the Socking

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1659588&postcount=41

Derubael wants us to stop the socking. What do you mean exactly?

As it stands to get FTE and stand a chance on most FFA mobs you need 1 mage 1 tagger minimum. If you don't consider this socking, then make a rule only 2 players allowed in zone when it spawns otherwise disqualified.

On certain mobs, to even stand a chance to get FTE with the current raidscape you need to sock.

Venril Sathir and Trakanon being the primary examples.

VS will have 2 trackers (1 Mage and 1 war/cleric/enchanter) plus several at entrance. Everyone that competes on this does it with a warrior wielding a Bladestopper who stalls (aka tanks and does 0 DPS to stay alive long enough til a raid force is there). This usually means you have a full group in zone. (Mage, cleric x 2, warrior x2-3, enchanter) This isn't a single guild doing it, it's multiple, and if you don't you stand no chance to kill VS.

Trakanon is even worse. They have 2 Mages down at poop mountain entire window ready to CotH down more Mages who then CoTH down more people, it's a big old sock fest and guilds without 2 Mages living on poop mountain stand no chance.

I feel like this is a simple fix. 2 in zone when it spawns, whether they be 2 trackers, a tracker and a tagger, or 2 taggers. Anything over that, is immediately unable to kill the mob. Anyone found socking outside the zone would also be disqualified. Aka don't set up your Trak CotH group at the orb or your VS CotH group in DL.

[arsenalpow]

Not to rain on your parade but you're asking the hardcore raiders to fundamentally change the way they raid, and to completely change the culture of high end raiding that's been prevalent since the genesis of p99.

It's always an arms race and the fuel for this has always been the staff/devs who have plainly stated that they want to see competition. It's hard to have that platform and expect anything different from the playerbase. I don't personally subscribe to that playstyle but if you give a player the leeway he's going to do anything he can to maximize his pixel intake.

The alternative to this is the current class R rotation. We've successfully adopted a culture that's a complete 180 from how raiding on this server typically has been. Remove the FFA component, let class C gouge each other's eyes out if they want, and let the rest of the server rotate content so everyone can experience high end Everquest raiding.

[Korben]

Aka don't set up your Trak CotH group at the orb or your VS CotH group in DL.

P99 needs black and white rules else people will habitually line step if there's any gray area.

Then again I think the habitual like steppers should just be outright banned, it's not like after 4 years of doing it they can maintain plausible deniability about the rules and what is right and wrong... even though that's the story every time.

Personally, I think 16 hour windows are a huge contributor to the issue, and it also puts the smaller guilds at a disadvantage when they have to muster a Trak force at 4:14AM, after having the majority of their guild on alert for 12+ hours leading up to it.

On to the real socking issue, spawns like VS are just an ugly nightmare, and like you said you get someone with FTE to stall until their 40 friends run in to take a shit on him... In that specific circumstance I don't even know why we don't just allow spawn socking and no window, just pop him on a known timer.

[Bboboo]

Never.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1354678552_l.jpg

[Daldaen]

Can remove FFA if they want sure.

But that won't reduce poopsocking. Since it isn't generally Class R guilds doing that, though it sometimes is. Their eye gouging will just continue to be poop socking which will lead to longer variance which is retarded and not classic.

Something to make the poopsocking dissipate and the variance to be reduced would be ideal. No one wants to have shifts tracking for 96 hours again. That's dumb... Very very dumb.

I understand that the grey areas and limits of every rule will be pushed until a punishment is handed out and a line is drawn in the sand.

2 players in zone seems pretty clear. And punishment can pretty easily be handed out for breaking such a simple rule.

If you reduce variance enough limiting people to 2 per zone of tracking won't be a huge hindrance, people won't sock since many targets are spawning in overlapping windows which will spread people out and reduce petitions.

[fadetree]

It is impossible to stop the socking. The nature of the game requires it. Change the nature of the game if you want to stop the socking.

[Ando]

It is impossible to stop the socking. The nature of the game requires it. Change the nature of the game if you want to stop the socking.

Maybe, but by increasing Variance they can make poopsocking a whole lot more painful which hopefully dissuades some people from doing it.

[Korben]

So, get ready to scream NOT CLASSIC, but the windows we have are totally not classic but... what if mobs like VS, Trak, even Sev perhaps, were just random on their respawn? They could respawn an hour later, 5 hours later, 4 days later.... with an upper limit on how long it could go between spawns? Extrapolate that across the number of possible targets available, maybe there's something to it?

I'm ready to duck the pitchforks.

[Daldaen]

Maybe, but by increasing Variance they can make poopsocking a whole lot more painful which hopefully dissuades some people from doing it.

Increasing variance just dissuades people from partaking in raiding period. Which isn't the goal.

No one wants to have to set up 12 different 8 hour shifts of tracking just to make sure you catch the NPC when it spawns.

Going to no respawns and just sim repops every week would be vastly superior method of removing poopsocking that doesn't rewuire you have people devote hours upon hours staring at pixels doing literally nothing other than hovering a finger over a batphone button.

[arsenalpow]

Can remove FFA if they want sure.

But that won't reduce poopsocking. Since it isn't generally Class R guilds doing that, though it sometimes is. Their eye gouging will just continue to be poop socking which will lead to longer variance which is retarded and not classic.

Something to make the poopsocking dissipate and the variance to be reduced would be ideal. No one wants to have shifts tracking for 96 hours again. That's dumb... Very very dumb.

I understand that the grey areas and limits of every rule will be pushed until a punishment is handed out and a line is drawn in the sand.

2 players in zone seems pretty clear. And punishment can pretty easily be handed out for breaking such a simple rule.

If you reduce variance enough limiting people to 2 per zone of tracking won't be a huge hindrance, people won't sock since many targets are spawning in overlapping windows which will spread people out and reduce petitions.

I honestly wish it were as easy as you want it to be, but consider some of these points.

-players camped in zone to avoid the footrace from the other zoneline, how is that policed?

-players bound in zone to avoid the footrace, how is that policed?

Each new wrinkle you add only complicates the amount of fraps/logs that must be kept to keep everyone playing nicely. The new rules themselves only moved the sock to the zoneline, it didn't change how people are actually playing the game.

[Whirled]

So, what you're saying is..... the early turd gets the sock?

[Daldaen]

So, get ready to scream NOT CLASSIC, but the windows we have are totally not classic but... what if mobs like VS, Trak, even Sev perhaps, were just random on their respawn? They could respawn an hour later, 5 hours later, 4 days later.... with an upper limit on how long it could go between spawns? Extrapolate that across the number of possible targets available, maybe there's something to it?

I'm ready to duck the pitchforks.

Worst idea yet.

That is a variance of a week. No one wants that. People hated 96 hour variance, 168 hours would be even more retarded.

[Ella`Ella]

P99 needs black and white rules else people will habitually line step if there's any gray area.



P99 needs fewer rules. The more rules you've created the less creativity there is for overcoming 'competition' and more creativity in rule lawyering the grey area.

[kotton05]

Not to rain on your parade but you're asking the hardcore raiders to fundamentally change the way they raid, and to completely change the culture of high end raiding that's been prevalent since the genesis of p99.

It's always an arms race and the fuel for this has always been the staff/devs who have plainly stated that they want to see competition. It's hard to have that platform and expect anything different from the playerbase. I don't personally subscribe to that playstyle but if you give a player the leeway he's going to do anything he can to maximize his pixel intake.

The alternative to this is the current class R rotation. We've successfully adopted a culture that's a complete 180 from how raiding on this server typically has been. Remove the FFA component, let class C gouge each other's eyes out if they want, and let the rest of the server rotate content so everyone can experience high end Everquest raiding.

FFA isn't going away, unlike that ct you lost. Also before this stupid camp at ent and coth Mage shit. FE and TMO would just have 1 tracker. Then fastest to log in won. Was a lot less work. A lot more doable by guilds like most class r. I say we get rid of most the rules. The only rules we need is no long da stall, honor FTE and no kiting.

[arsenalpow]

Maybe, but by increasing Variance they can make poopsocking a whole lot more painful which hopefully dissuades some people from doing it.

Which isn't the case. The old system was 7 days +/- 48 hours, so nearly 200 hours in a window and the hardcore guilds would still track around the clock. At one point the windows weren't finite, if you got down to the last 10% of a window there was a chance it would extend for another 24 hours or whatver (I forgot the exact details but the window could go on in perpetuity, it was bad lol) Guilds even organized full on socks where they'd sit in VS's room for days or in Inny's lair constantly clearing and waiting.

The point I'm trying to make is that going back to the old variance only punishes the casual raiding guilds.

[Daldaen]

I honestly wish it were as easy as you want it to be, but consider some of these points.

-players camped in zone to avoid the footrace from the other zoneline, how is that policed?

-players bound in zone to avoid the footrace, how is that policed?

Each new wrinkle you add only complicates the amount of fraps/logs that must be kept to keep everyone playing nicely. The new rules themselves only moved the sock to the zoneline, it didn't change how people are actually playing the game.

Aren't those two things currently prevented? You may not bind in zone and gate to Naggy or Vox anymore and you can't camp on or near the raid spawn so everyone camps at the zone in.

I'm sure there are new wrinkles. But they seem keen on stopping poopsocking sooner rather than later. And they don't appear to want to remove raid windows entirely and replace them with weekly simulated respawns... So limiting to 2 in zone as opposed to 2 at target and allowing for some banhammering if people attempt to skirt the rules by chilling at zone lines, would make for a better environment.

One that may be agreeable by all parties. Where as your complete rotation idea is obviously utopian and Class C will never concede to it.

[arsenalpow]

P99 needs fewer rules. The more rules you've created the less creativity there is for overcoming 'competition' and more creativity in rule lawyering the grey area.

FFA isn't going away, unlike that ct you lost. Also before this stupid camp at ent and coth Mage shit. FE and TMO would just have 1 tracker. Then fastest to log in won. Was a lot less work. A lot more doable by guilds like most class r. I say we get rid of most the rules. The only rules we need is no long da stall, honor FTE and no kiting.

And there you have it, hardcore raiders advocating zero regulation so we can go back to the days of 1-2 guilds steamrolling all the content.

[arsenalpow]

Aren't those two things currently prevented? You may not bind in zone and gate to Naggy or Vox anymore and you can't camp on or near the raid spawn so everyone camps at the zone in.

I'm sure there are new wrinkles. But they seem keen on stopping poopsocking sooner rather than later. And they don't appear to want to remove raid windows entirely and replace them with weekly simulated respawns... So limiting to 2 in zone as opposed to 2 at target and allowing for some banhammering if people attempt to skirt the rules by chilling at zone lines, would make for a better environment.

One that may be agreeable by all parties. Where as your complete rotation idea is obviously utopian and Class C will never concede to it.

You're right, those two things are currently disallowed, and by having two coth mages you usually see exactly who's cothed in, you see a spell message, you see the soandso mystical portal crap. However, without those coth mages you don't know where the FTE person came from and you'd need ways to police those things.

[Ele]

What is the staffs' definition of socking?

Having one person track?
Having two people track?
Having a pre-buffed/camped raid force outside the zone?
Having a pre-buffed/camped raid force inside the zone?
Mage tracking ducking CotH?
Having the raid or initial engage group logged in?

Socking is a symptom of people not having anything constructive to do with their main characters. People could level a 5th or 6th alternate at this point, but what do they end up doing with that character? Buffing it and parking it in a zone while a boss is in window. Creating yet more socking and instant engages.

Worst idea yet.

That is a variance of a week. No one wants that. People hated 96 hour variance, 168 hours would be even more retarded.


Not to mention that 96 hour variance (with extended windows) did not dissuade all people from socking spawns.

[kotton05]

And there you have it, hardcore raiders advocating zero regulation so we can go back to the days of 1-2 guilds steamrolling all the content.

You're more than wrong. Keep those blinders on.

[Daldaen]

P99 needs fewer rules. The more rules you've created the less creativity there is for overcoming 'competition' and more creativity in rule lawyering the grey area.
Needs streamlined rules, not fewer rules. Smaller doesn't mean better. Just so long as rules are clear and not convoluted they can be successful.

What rules do we have right now:

2 Trackers/Players near spawn
Trackers can't FTE
Can't pull VS to entrance (lol trains)
FTE means you cannot engage until mob resets. No FTE message means don't kill.
Kill mobs of your Class or FFA
Killing a VP or Class C mob make you Class C
Killing a Class R mob prevents you from engaging that Class R mob for next 2 Class R spawns
Class C/R mobs left up for 6 hours become FFA
Repop Bag Limit of 2 targets (VP excluded)

Then you yourselves in Class C have your own rules:

Taggers can only have SoW (no selos, cheetah, wolf form)
No CotHing just foot races

What I'm suggesting just broadens the first one. Change from "2 trackers near spawn" to "2 trackers in zone". Then adding "Don't poopsock on other side of zone line, just camp there".

[Erati]

+1 to Ele s post

Variance does not stop socking. It only punishes those who cant sit there but doesnt eliminate the practice from those who can.

How do u kill that which has no life?

[kotton05]

When these rules we're put into place there was many side convos that are referenced that hold no weight. A clear defined sticky would help. I'm a strong believer in doing more with less. So strip some of the needless rules. Harshen penalties for stupid petitions. Create a case study for prior rulings on mobs in question.

[Korben]

In regards to FTE, can we push for 6 month bans for anyone who is stupid enough to kill a mob they don't have FTE on? Sev from a few weeks ago comes to mind.

If people don't have the self control to wait until legitimate FTE is established, they have no business in the raid scene.

[Erati]

Dald u cant say only two in zone unless the trackers officially sign in lol

there will b expers in KC,Seb, DL, Sol B etc

its hard to say a blank statement "only 2 in zone" its why people eventually started socking the zone in.... u cant limit the number of people in the zone simply playing the game not even raiding

[kotton05]

In regards to FTE, can we push for 6 month bans for anyone who is stupid enough to kill a mob they don't have FTE on? Sev from a few weeks ago comes to mind.

If people don't have the self control to wait until legitimate FTE is established, they have no business in the raid scene.

This and have a log in race over a coth race that strains smaller guilds like Asgard who has 1 Mage who doesn't wanna be whored out.

[Erati]

In regards to FTE, can we push for 6 month bans for anyone who is stupid enough to kill a mob they don't have FTE on? Sev from a few weeks ago comes to mind.

If people don't have the self control to wait until legitimate FTE is established, they have no business in the raid scene.

um ok...the thread is ab socking not FTEs

[Korben]

um ok...the thread is ab socking not FTEs

I think you're right I did go on a tangent pretty quickly but less people to sock is better for all

[Daldaen]

Dald u cant say only two in zone unless the trackers officially sign in lol

there will b expers in KC,Seb, DL, Sol B etc

its hard to say a blank statement "only 2 in zone" its why people eventually started socking the zone in.... u cant limit the number of people in the zone simply playing the game not even raiding

Yes you can.

If you're concerned with getting dragons in the FFA or Class C spawn, you're at the high-end of the game.

You aren't or shouldn't be concerned with exping. You want some of the very best loot and hardest kills this expansion has to offer.

If your guild isn't hardcore enough to prevent people from exping during these windows, you probably have better things you could do (like exping) than go for the best loot in game during their competitive windows.

Plus... If Variance is reduced to be something like... 1-2 or even 4 hours that's a very reasonable amount of time to tell your guild to avoid certain zones.

KC, Seb, Sol B, DL, TD, EJ, Skyfire, VP, Perma, Hate, Fear.

No one is exping in EJ, Skyfire, VP, Perma, Hate or Fear. If they are it's probably someone soloing TD, Perma or Skyfire.

KC, and Seb are popular exp spots. But there's Chardok, Charasis, LGuk, etc. If you want to get your grind on.
DL/Sol B are popular alt spots. Just play another alt.

Again with reduced variance of like 60min, this is a non issue. People in the guilds contesting FFA or Class C spawns, can avoid these zones for an hour or two a week for their guilds chance to kill the mob.

[Korben]

I have to admit the argument for short windows as Dald said is pretty strong.

Folks will still sock until the end of time, so why not make it so that it's not a full time job with shifts. 60 minute variance in 2015!

[Lojik]

Endgame is retarded on server regardless of whether there are more rules less rules whatever. There is simply not enough content for a server that is this top heavy. There would need to be significant changes that would be "not classic" in order for the raid scene to not suck, in my opinion.

[Ravager]

The only way everybody would be happy is a rotation only blue server and a bare minimum rules blue server (no ninja looting, no ksing). As blue is now, you're basically trying to make MLB play on the same field as a bar softball league simultaneously.

[Whirled]

Endgame is retarded on server regardless of whether there are more rules less rules whatever. There is simply not enough content for a server that is this top heavy. There would need to be significant changes that would be "not classic" in order for the raid scene to not suck, in my opinion.

Velious :D and patience... that is all.

[Lojik]

Velious :D and patience... that is all.

I honestly think people are going to be severely disappointed with what the server is like with Velious release, the only change is that peoples tears are going to be frozen

[arsenalpow]

The only way everybody would be happy is a rotation only blue server and a bare minimum rules blue server (no ninja looting, no ksing). As blue is now, you're basically trying to make MLB play on the same field as a bar softball league simultaneously.

I've said it plenty of times but the majority of class R guilds would support a new blue server with /movelog operating in the fashion of the current rotation system. 15k for kids with cancer will pail in comparison to fundraising to get a new server.

[Whirled]

Icwydt^
http://www.prosbo.com/images/goofy_smile.gif

I'll try to keep the positive flow going and hope for the best for all things.

[Danth]

Case in point, I remember the same argument being made for Kunark when all we had was the pre-expansion game. The nonstop issues P1999 encounters with its high-end scene seem to me like a case study highlighting why newer games tend to make liberal use of instancing.

If you don't want to "sock," then don't. I don't. Heck I'd immediately disband from any guild that expected me to do so. It means I don't get those shiny pixels, but so what? No high end video game loot in return for not hating the time I spend online seems a good trade to me. Alternately, it should be remembered that every single person "socking" spawns is there because he wants to and chooses to be there.

If you don't want a full rotation, and don't want instancing, and essentially don't want anything that can stop this behavior, then you get this behavior. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Danth

[Nirgon]

Play red

There is NO WAY pvp is worse than this if you give it a chance

I personally couldn't take it anymore

[Clark]

Why don't we try some rules they did on live? We're at the point where you guys just keep lapping on rule after rule after freaking rule. Screwing up the classic sandbox experience.

Myself, and nearly all the longtime players never envisioned a slew of ridiculous rules when we started back in 2009-2011. I'm sure the new players don't think it's good either. There are tons of rules and limitations in new MMO's these days. Why are terrible new concepts being incorporated into something that is supposed to bring about a classic feel.

[Korben]

Play red

There is NO WAY pvp is worse than this if you give it a chance

I personally couldn't take it anymore

Good point, thread closed?

[Lazie]

1. Make it all foot races. All the Foot racers have to start from the same position. You can see who is there. Only 2 Foot racers per guild with 1 tracker tracking in zone. The tracker can't be a mage. Set Designated starting points where they have to start from. This can literally be anywhere in a zone these mobs spawn. Just make the starting point a resolute spot that if you are not at it when the mob spawns you can't pull the mob.

2. Shorten the variance to -/+ 4 so smaller guilds can dedicate the players they have to it more readily.

That's all you need.

Edit: The part I bolded.

[arsenalpow]

Why don't we try some rules they did on live? We're at the point where you guys just keep lapping on rule after rule after freaking rule. Screwing up the classic sandbox experience.

Server ain't classic. Kunark on most servers had maybe 3 guilds max that could even kill Trak, maybe 2 max that could tackle VP content before velious came out. Realistically we have about 10-12 guilds that can kill almost anything on the server currently. All the strats are now widely available, there's no mystery. Shit ain't classic so stop using that as a point to change things. If anything the non classic nature of the server demands non classic answers.

[Ele]

Bring back the iron fist of Uthgaard!

Perma-ban hammer trouble makers and people's behavior will clean up.

[Raev]

another brick in the wall

IMO any competition by multiple guilds for the same target in EQ is doomed to retardation. The staff have made a pretty good go of it - I just don't think its possible. The Ancient Ranger is right: the only question is whether its a super short term/intense autofire sock, a short term/intense COH ducking sock, or a long term/relaxed track-while-doing-homework sock. Hell, Forceful Entry and TMO used to poopsock Venril Sathir even when he had a 96 hour window!

The solution is repops which spread players out and are randomly timed. For some reason the staff refuses to consider altering their system to C/R + FFA repops, which would basically preserve the ratio of targets in each category while unequivocally making the raid scene more fun. I think they believe that Velious will fix everything; personally I think the raid scene should be fixed before Velious releases.

[Clark]

Shit ain't classic so stop using that as a point to change things. If anything the non classic nature of the server demands non classic answers.

If there ever was such a time where agree to disagree was needed to be used in the universe now is the time. I don't understand why you have to bring your crummy different mmo EZ server mentality over here and customize everything you can possibly get your complaining hands on man.

[Tankdan]

P99 is perfectly fine the way it is. If you want more kills then play better and stop forumquesting for more loot.

[Ella`Ella]

Bring back the iron fist of Uthgaard!

Perma-ban hammer trouble makers and people's behavior will clean up.

They won't put me on staff =(

[Daldaen]

Server ain't classic. Kunark on most servers had maybe 3 guilds max that could even kill Trak, maybe 2 max that could tackle VP content before velious came out. Realistically we have about 10-12 guilds that can kill almost anything on the server currently. All the strats are now widely available, there's no mystery. Shit ain't classic so stop using that as a point to change things. If anything the non classic nature of the server demands non classic answers.

This. The rules are necessary because without them the server would devolve into extremely unclassic behavior. No one sat on VSes spawn for 96 hours. But you can bet P99ers will in the hardcore guilds.

Raev is correct a Class C/R rotations with repops being FFA would likely keep the same distribution of mobs by class, would remove the tracking/FTEing/CotHing nonsense since the repops would be unannounced. But that solution appears to be off the table.

[Daldaen]

1. Make it all foot races. All the Foot racers have to start from the same position. You can see who is there. Only 2 Foot racers per guild with 1 tracker tracking in zone. The tracker can't be a mage. Set Designated starting points where they have to start from. This can literally be anywhere in a zone these mobs spawn. Just make the starting point a resolute spot that if you are not at it when the mob spawns you can't pull the mob.

2. Shorten the variance to -/+ 4 so smaller guilds can dedicate the players they have to it more readily.

That's all you need.

Edit: The part I bolded.

2 foot racers and 1 tracker in zone period, no others? I could get behind that. If there are specific areas that are agreed upon.

What about Trakanon, does he receive an exemption? If so, what is it? Will said exemption prevent the current poopsock he currently invokes?

[kotton05]

Red doesn't have these issues

[Korben]

Red doesn't have these issues

Right, just broken warrior disciplines that allow you to be mugged for 37,000 plat and twinks that will destroy your mains asshole as you level it up for no reason other than to scream rustle in RNF.

[Daldaen]

Red doesn't have these issues

Indeed it has far greater issues.

Broken imbalanced PvP game
Broken EXP bonus for grouping
Broken OOC
Broken text that alerts you when PVP deaths occur
Broken Vendor Recharging of Charged items (a staple of raiding Velious-PoP)

Few other things that don't work.

[Nirgon]

Right, just broken warrior disciplines that allow you to be mugged for 37,000 plat and twinks that will destroy your mains asshole as you level it up for no reason other than to scream rustle in RNF.

1: warrior disci isolated incident. Don't do trades unless on a lvl 1 in city zones, problem solved... literally problem solved.

2: you will VERY QUICKLY out level pvp fungi twinks, and probably never see them if your group is wise enough to avoid the obvious areas like MM/Unrest



Broken Vendor Recharging of Charged items (a staple of raiding Velious-PoP)


Link me a Velious raid guide/post where people talk about recharging mallets to trivialize raiding. I never saw this on RZ/SZ/Povar. Boxing was more prevalent than item recharging (got u on dat 1).

[Jaxon]

Make it all random. One tracker and one roller in zone per guild. Rollers stand in a designated spot. When mob spawns all rollers have 30 secs to /rand 100.

The high-rolling guild has 5 mins to engage. If they fail to engage or wipe the next highest rolling guild has 5 mins, and so on until the mob dies.

[Korben]

1: warrior disci isolated incident. Don't do trades unless on a lvl 1 in city zones, problem solved.

2: you will VERY QUICKLY out level pvp fungi twinks, and probably never see them if your group is wise enough to avoid the obvious areas like MM/Unrest

1: On blue you can trade anywhere you want, we don't have those issues.

2: On blue you can play in whichever zones are hot at the moment without fear of being griefed all day

[Nirgon]

I remember evaccing a group out of the seb crypt because of a mysterious train and a group waiting at the door to take it.

A real play nice atmosphere on blue.

Are we forgetting about the javelin contest during week day work hours? Duck taped keyboards? Huge MQ bust on blue? Huge dupe bust on blue? Me logging on people's characters in various guilds and getting all kinds of hate spammed (they didn't know it was me on the char)?

I mean, if you think blue is this magical place where people share and don't scam each other... LOL (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1328600&postcount=23)

1 red warrior disci scam vs a whole stickied thread (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84383) in blue trade section about scams. Do the math.

[Erati]

TMO's answer for everything: This is how WE do it in VP so it must be the best way for everything!

Footraces, as Chest continues to point out, just bring up new issues and dont really change much besides the FTE meta game landscape.

The FTE meta game landscape is not what most are interested in worrying about, its the entire raid scene and practice of raiding large targets for ALL GUILDS.

We could talk about different FTE mechanics til we are blue in the face.

Until changes are made to:

1. Variance
2. R/C/FFA cycle
3. How guilds move up and down the tiers

Nothing will be fundamentally different, socking included.

I think Ele's post needs to be continued to quoted and reposted because it actually poses a useful question:

What does the staff consider 'poopsocking'?

I was brainstorming somethings and I kept getting hung up on the numbers thing.

So 2 trackers ( usually mages ) which means you have 2 FTEers....so 4 people in zone cant be considered poopsocking.....Ok so no more than a full group of people....um now we are getting into silly rules where people cant zone into a dungeon without reading a manual....bah that doesnt improve anything...

is usually my thought process, its not an easy thing to figure out how to fix, mainly because as other people in this thread pointed out....the game of EQ revolves around poopsocking or camping things. Hard to change how to fundamentally play the game.

[Nirgon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WpRaePIJas

Ya on blue you can trade wherever you want

EC or North Freeport bank where the banker alts are camped

I feel so free

[Lazie]

2 foot racers and 1 tracker in zone period, no others? I could get behind that. If there are specific areas that are agreed upon.

What about Trakanon, does he receive an exemption? If so, what is it? Will said exemption prevent the current poopsock he currently invokes?

Trakanon is a different Animal that people will have to discuss. I wouldn't go into this trying to make that change. Get something that is agreeable to everyone on the other spawns first and work on Trakanon after you have hammered that out.


Seb is just a tough zone to have a natural race without killing a lot of innocent people experiencing and getting your guild in trouble. You will just see guilds not worry about clearing down. They will log their whole raid force in at zone in when he pops and train down with 2 people. While everyone else runs by. It's hard to limit the uses of mage for Trakanon just because of the zone disruption it would cause otherwise. Like I said a different Animal I would approach differently after you get the other spawns figured out.

[Daldaen]

Trakanon is a different Animal that people will have to discuss. I wouldn't go into this trying to make that change. Get something that is agreeable to everyone on the other spawns first and work on Trakanon after you have hammered that out.


Seb is just a tough zone to have a natural race without killing a lot of innocent people experiencing and getting your guild in trouble. You will just see guilds not worry about clearing down. They will log their whole raid force in at zone in when he pops and train down with 2 people. While everyone else runs by. It's hard to limit the uses of mage for Trakanon just because of the zone disruption it would cause otherwise. Like I said a different Animal I would approach differently after you get the other spawns figured out.
I don't have much of an issue allowing Mages to CotH on Trak.

I do have an issue with poopsocking it (cause that's dumb) with 2 preformed groups waiting at the entrance the entire window formed up ready to be CotH'd down.

Cause that sort of behavior is what pushes the GMs to think that 16 hour variance is the issue. When it isn't.

[Lazie]

TMO's answer for everything: This is how WE do it in VP so it must be the best way for everything!

Footraces, as Chest continues to point out, just bring up new issues and dont really change much besides the FTE meta game landscape.

The FTE meta game landscape is not what most are interested in worrying about, its the entire raid scene and practice of raiding large targets for ALL GUILDS.

We could talk about different FTE mechanics til we are blue in the face.

Until changes are made to:

1. Variance
2. R/C/FFA cycle
3. How guilds move up and down the tiers

Nothing will be fundamentally different, socking included.

I think Ele's post needs to be continued to quoted and reposted because it actually poses a useful question:

What does the staff consider 'poopsocking'?

I was brainstorming somethings and I kept getting hung up on the numbers thing.

So 2 trackers ( usually mages ) which means you have 2 FTEers....so 4 people in zone cant be considered poopsocking.....Ok so no more than a full group of people....um now we are getting into silly rules where people cant zone into a dungeon without reading a manual....bah that doesnt improve anything...

is usually my thought process, its not an easy thing to figure out how to fix, mainly because as other people in this thread pointed out....the game of EQ revolves around poopsocking or camping things. Hard to change how to fundamentally play the game.

No what Chest wants is just an overhaul of the system that expressly benefits his play style. What you need is a middle ground that doesn't ask for a complete overhaul of the way things are now. Foot races with designated starting points. Only 2 people from each guild can race for the mob with 1 tracker out in the zone tracking. Lower the variance. Simple solutions without asking for things that benefits one playstyle over others.

What it does.

-It limits the number of racers TMO/IB can have for the mob to the level of what Class R guilds can produce.
-It reduces the time Class R guilds have to dedicate to it.
-It puts in the potential for player error. The tracker might go afk at a bad time etc.
-Everyone has a defined guideline to follow that isn't difficult to understand.
-The gray area is gone. If you get FTE with someone other than the 2 at the "Starting Line" someone obviously broke the rules.

[Nirgon]

Broken variance

[Raev]

Seb is just a tough zone to have a natural race

This is true for pretty much all indoor zones. It just so happens that Trakanon is the only target in an indoor zone in Kunark. In Velious . . . .

[Lazie]

This is true for pretty much all indoor zones. It just so happens that Trakanon is the only target in an indoor zone in Kunark. In Velious . . . .

Yep. It just has more to do too with the amount of people that XP/farm camps in Seb. I'd be all for trying it out myself. But there will be petitions through the roof.

[Erati]

No what Chest wants is just an overhaul of the system that expressly benefits his play style. What you need is a middle ground that doesn't ask for a complete overhaul of the way things are now. Foot races with designated starting points. Only 2 people from each guild can race for the mob with 1 tracker out in the zone tracking. Lower the variance. Simple solutions without asking for things that benefits one playstyle over others.

edit: you edit'd fast and answered some of my questions...but


Having 2 racers from each guild means that they have to 'officially' sign in else we are asking those standing there to take fraps/SSs/logs of who is waiting......

Thats the beauty of COH mages, they can only COH one person....so some of this extra evidence gathering and footwork is not even required to figure out what happened

Add another layer if you are going to require racers to 'have sow only as max run speed'....

this is what others are complaining about, even TMO, everyone doesnt want more layers of rules n crap that new guilds/players who join the server get to raid have to take a night class to understand how to tag a dragon

it seems 'racing' has even more stipulations and rules than using mages, the only problem with mages people have is the ducking.

Ducking can be fixed or barred 'illegal' but then like Nemce's post in raid discussion proved, its nearly futile and pointless to try to police 'someone casting X spell Y number of times in a row'

Which brings us full circle.

R/C sim repops= FFA

Class C can have a larger bag limit ( 4 mobs ) since they are the tier that is entitled to more loot, but at least the FTE meta game is only played among-st the most neckbeardy and then the entire server can enjoy the entire spawn of mobs on a repop ( not including VP unless u wanna become Class C)


Otherwise, making the Variance 4 hours and letting people go hog wild in poopsocks, coh ducking, etc at least it wont take up entire days of waiting and can be more enjoyable even if its not classic and unappetizing to see...

[YendorLootmonkey]

If the problem is too many guilds are capable of killing too many raid targets, then scale up the difficulty of the raid targets until Velious drops. Not classic, but it addresses the unique environment we have caused by too many guilds capable of killing every raid target.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

P99 needs black and white rules else people will habitually line step if there's any gray area.

Then again I think the habitual like steppers should just be outright banned, it's not like after 4 years of doing it they can maintain plausible deniability about the rules and what is right and wrong... even though that's the story every time.

Personally, I think 16 hour windows are a huge contributor to the issue, and it also puts the smaller guilds at a disadvantage when they have to muster a Trak force at 4:14AM, after having the majority of their guild on alert for 12+ hours leading up to it.

On to the real socking issue, spawns like VS are just an ugly nightmare, and like you said you get someone with FTE to stall until their 40 friends run in to take a shit on him... In that specific circumstance I don't even know why we don't just allow spawn socking and no window, just pop him on a known timer.

http://cdn.niketalk.com/e/ee/ee4bcb6c_charlie.gif

[Raev]

I do not understand why the staff is unwilling to consider the R/C + FFA system (unless they just are against anything that Chest wants). I appreciate the huge amount of time the developers put in to this, but this should be a 2-3 line change: Mobs go C->R instead of C->FFA, and if(repop) -> do nothing. I can't imagine it taking Rogean more than an hour to make this happen.

This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C.

I thought the point of the new system was to make competitive raiding more fun. The R rotation has been a success; the competitive changes have not. And its easy to try some fixes, so why is it all about making sure TMO/IB get pixels for their alts?

I say fuck the bag limits, and if TMO/IB can kill 10 targets before the R guilds more power to them. I just want the actual process of competing to be fun. And then we shall see who is good, and who is not.

[Korben]

http://cdn.niketalk.com/e/ee/ee4bcb6c_charlie.gif

Thanks for someone picking up on that, and damn me for typo!

[Lazie]

edit: you edit'd fast and answered some of my questions...but


Having 2 racers from each guild means that they have to 'officially' sign in else we are asking those standing there to take fraps/SSs/logs of who is waiting......

This is just wrong. No one says you have to sign in. Everyone standing on the starting line sees who is there. Hitting Print Screen as you start to run isn't hard anyway.

Thats the beauty of COH mages, they can only COH one person....so some of this extra evidence gathering and footwork is not even required to figure out what happened

There is no beauty to CotH mages. This is just the same as gating to a bind spot except for the fact the Mages are the mobile bind point. It requires a specific resource that not all smaller guilds have. This excludes some guilds from being able to participate legitimately. I thought we all wanted the same thing here ? More guilds with more opportunities.

Add another layer if you are going to require racers to 'have sow only as max run speed'....

Again these are minor details if you want to limit the use of bards discuss that. Using SoW only is restrictive, but it sure beats CotH ducking. We do that for VP races. If you want to allow any class that is fine as well. Just discuss what you as Class R guilds think is the fairest.

this is what others are complaining about, even TMO, everyone doesnt want more layers of rules n crap that new guilds/players get to raid have to take a night class to understand how to tag a dragon

There is no layers of rules in what I posted. You seem to be the one pushing for layers of rules. Say "SoW only" if that is what you want and a lot will likely agree. I am sure guilds have access to bards for the most part though. It's an easy thing to work out.

it seems 'racing' has even more stipulations and rules than using mages, the only problem with mages people have is the ducking.

Blatantly False. The same rules apply. Trackers can't FTE and the people racing instead of being Coth'ed can. Simple.


Ducking can be fixed or barred 'illegal' but then like Nemce's post in raid discussion proved, its nearly futile and pointless to try to police 'someone casting X spell Y number of times in a row'

Which brings us full circle.

R/C sim repops= FFA

Class C can have a larger bag limit ( 4 mobs ) since they are the tier that is entitled to more loot, but at least the FTE meta game is only played among-st the most neckbeardy and then the entire server can enjoy the entire spawn of mobs on a repop ( not including VP unless u wanna become Class C)


Otherwise, making the Variance 4 hours and letting people go hog wild in poopsocks, coh ducking, etc at least it wont take up entire days of waiting and can be more enjoyable even if its not classic and unappetizing to see...


It seems all you want to do is spin what I posted to push your own agenda. You didn't give any real concerns just hypothetical ones that naturally wouldn't arise.
.

[Secrets]

Make mobs randomly have a 0-2 week variance for when they spawn, and they can spawn at any time in that timeframe, 3 days to 2 weeks.

Problem with simulated repops is they all spawn at once, and you know they're all up when it happens.

You can't stop the batphone, but you can make it harder and more physically exhausting to the point where it isn't worth keeping a tracker in the zone for up to 2 weeks doing nothing but looking at track.

[Pint]

So, get ready to scream NOT CLASSIC, but the windows we have are totally not classic but... what if mobs like VS, Trak, even Sev perhaps, were just random on their respawn? They could respawn an hour later, 5 hours later, 4 days later.... with an upper limit on how long it could go between spawns? Extrapolate that across the number of possible targets available, maybe there's something to it?

I'm ready to duck the pitchforks.

This is basically what 96 hr windows were, its the reason guilds like tmo formed and stayed together, some ppl are just willing to push things to the limits. Def not a solution.

[YendorLootmonkey]

unless they just are against anything that Chest wants

We in BDA have taken this stance during raids for years and it hasn't worked, so this possibility shouldn't be a concern.

[Nirgon]

You can't stop the batphone, but you can make it harder and more physically exhausting to the point where it isn't worth keeping a tracker in the zone for up to 2 weeks doing nothing but looking at track.

Do you know who you are dealing with here

[Korben]

Make mobs randomly have a 0-2 week variance for when they spawn, and they can spawn at any time in that timeframe, 3 days to 2 weeks.

Problem with simulated repops is they all spawn at once, and you know they're all up when it happens.

You can't stop the batphone, but you can make it harder and more physically exhausting to the point where it isn't worth keeping a tracker in the zone for up to 2 weeks doing nothing but looking at track.

Honestly I thought going this way was ideal but as others pointed out there's no bottom to some people's socks.

[Raev]

You can't stop the batphone, but you can make it harder and more physically exhausting to the point where it isn't worth keeping a tracker in the zone for up to 2 weeks doing nothing but looking at track.

I don't see why people want to make raiding as annoying and "physically exhausting" as possible. The goal should be to make it fun while keeping it competitive.

Plus, Korben is right here. There is no bottom to some of the socks here.

[Lojik]

We already are talking about unclassic mechanics with the extended variance, why not just spawn the mobs every day +- 4 hours variance but with reduced loot tables

[iruinedyourday]

Im all for sim repop every week and everything FFA with bag limits. Nothing in my experiance is more fun than a good old earthquake. That makes the game feel the most classic to me. But hey thats me! :)

[Korben]

Im all for sim repop every week and everything FFA with bag limits. Nothing in my experiance is more fun than a good old earthquake. That makes the game feel the most classic to me. But hey thats me! :)

Earthquakes are pretty legit as far as forcing competition, people need to pick and prioritize targets and be mobile enough to engage them. Minimizes socking, ensures most guilds get a shot at SOMETHING, and it's dynamic.

[Tasslehofp99]

Raid scene is fine the way it is, why people trying to fix what isn't broken?


You think its bad now then you must have not been around for what raiding was before. You people won't ever be happy, just go play on a GM server so you can do whatever you want in the pixels you want, and summon any content you want to kill. Obviously p99 isn't the experience some of you are seeking.

[Clark]

http://cdn.niketalk.com/e/ee/ee4bcb6c_charlie.gif

lol

[Erati]

ty for breaking down my post Lazie

I get it tho, you guys really want to race. Acting like a race will suddenly give 'the little guys' a huge chance versus what we have now is handful of magic beans you are selling.

Like TMO's own guild leader suggested, maybe instead of lvling a 6th or 7th alt, a smaller R guild can take a week or two and Plvl a guild account mage and voila, they have just as much advantage in FTEing a dragon as the big boys.


A footrace that requires a specific location to start at, a specific level of run speed, specific classes who can race or not ( ie bards avail or not )..all while requiring a burden of evidence to back up claims of cheating. All of those factors does indeed add up to having more layers than the one layer currently required ( a COH guild account mage )

Any member can log on that mage and press one button when the dragon spawns, its really not difficult, and its the same for TMO and the same for IB. Any guild can show up and COH their tagger in.

I think,again, we need to re-focus on fixes to the actual raid scene not the FTE meta game. Its very hard to tell a difference for the hardcores because their life is about how to get FTE, but there is more to the raid scene environment leading up to that part.

I am not pushing an agenda, I am just speaking my mind as a player that has been here since 2009 and experienced quite a bit of this game and this server.

A foot race will be different sure, but will it be all that much better? I suppose possibly?

Theres no need to change anything if its not a fundamental change in how raiding is structured, else we are just putting a different shade of lipstick on a pig. Maybe the violet brings out the pigs eyes more than the peach color but its still lipstick on a pig....

[Cyrano]

Raid scene is fine the way it is, why people trying to fix what isn't broken?


You think its bad now then you must have not been around for what raiding was before. You people won't ever be happy, just go play on a GM server so you can do whatever you want in the pixels you want, and summon any content you want to kill. Obviously p99 isn't the experience some of you are seeking.

This guy speaks truth.

[Lazie]

This guy speaks truth.

I can agree with this also. I am just trying to point out the wholesale changes people are asking for aren't going to happen. The things they should ask for need to be something both styles of raiding will compromise on.

[Erati]

I can agree with this also. I am just trying to point out the wholesale changes people are asking for aren't going to happen. The things they should ask for need to be something both styles of raiding will compromise on.

so here's a question then....

What does C want?

many cite no change at all or even better, remove most the current rulesets...

If Class R doesnt know what kind of things Class C wants, it makes it very hard to find a middle ground to compromise

( hence why FFAs are such clusters and why R's solution has been to essentially get rid of the only time where C/R meet on the battle field on a regular basis )

[Haynar]

I don't have much of an issue allowing Mages to CotH on Trak.

I do have an issue with poopsocking it (cause that's dumb) with 2 preformed groups waiting at the entrance the entire window formed up ready to be CotH'd down.

Cause that sort of behavior is what pushes the GMs to think that 16 hour variance is the issue. When it isn't.
The rules should be simple. One tracker in zone. Tracker cannot get or be involved with FTE.

And no poopsocking. That includes staging raid forces, whether they are camped nearby or just sitting waiting on a spawn. This includes being gathered in a common location, waiting for a pop, and a rapid port. Putting 5 groups in 5 diff zones, just waiting for a pop and doing little else, is still poopsocking.

No variance.

And thats all I have to say about that.

H

[kaev]

...
Theres no need to change anything if its not a fundamental change in how raiding is structured, else we are just putting a different shade of lipstick on a pig. Maybe the violet brings out the pigs eyes more than the peach color but its still lipstick on a pig....

It's sad to me that among those here who understand this, the loudest voices (or at least the voices most listened to by staff) appear quite determined to obfuscate the obvious so they can continue gang-banging their beloved lipstick-smeared pig.

[captnamazing]

raid scene is way better than it was a year ago

pras class r overlords now i have dragon loot

[Lazie]

ty for breaking down my post Lazie

I get it tho, you guys really want to race. Acting like a race will suddenly give 'the little guys' a huge chance versus what we have now is handful of magic beans you are selling.

Like TMO's own guild leader suggested, maybe instead of lvling a 6th or 7th alt, a smaller R guild can take a week or two and Plvl a guild account mage and voila, they have just as much advantage in FTEing a dragon as the big boys.


A footrace that requires a specific location to start at, a specific level of run speed, specific classes who can race or not ( ie bards avail or not )..all while requiring a burden of evidence to back up claims of cheating. All of those factors does indeed add up to having more layers than the one layer currently required ( a COH guild account mage )

Any member can log on that mage and press one button when the dragon spawns, its really not difficult, and its the same for TMO and the same for IB. Any guild can show up and COH their tagger in.

I think,again, we need to re-focus on fixes to the actual raid scene not the FTE meta game. Its very hard to tell a difference for the hardcores because their life is about how to get FTE, but there is more to the raid scene environment leading up to that part.

I am not pushing an agenda, I am just speaking my mind as a player that has been here since 2009 and experienced quite a bit of this game and this server.

A foot race will be different sure, but will it be all that much better? I suppose possibly?

Theres no need to change anything if its not a fundamental change in how raiding is structured, else we are just putting a different shade of lipstick on a pig. Maybe the violet brings out the pigs eyes more than the peach color but its still lipstick on a pig....

Long post that I am not going to cover the same as the other. Just a few points I will add.

Some guilds have less resources than others and asking them to have to level a specific class just to compete means that the raid scene isn't open to new guilds just walking in and competing.

The goal at this point should not be "What makes this better for the guilds already in the raid scene". The goal should be to make it more approachable by current guilds and possible new guilds in the future. The current state of the raid scene is limited to guilds with certain resources. Yes A GOOD option for the current guilds that compete on FFA spawns is to say "LEVEL A MAGE YO!". It makes smaller guilds though have to put forth time and energy to create a resource they don't have. Remember this is supposed to be about opening up content to everyone. You are wanting to restrict it to guilds with more resources.

[Raev]

I get it tho, you guys really want to race. Acting like a race will suddenly give 'the little guys' a huge chance versus what we have now is handful of magic beans you are selling.

I feel like the priorities should be:

#1. Making the raid scene fun
#2. Making the raid scene classic
#3. Making sure everyone gets pixels

No one would run a footrace where you have to wait 0-16 hours before you can start.

[Daldaen]

Raid scene is fine the way it is, why people trying to fix what isn't broken?


You think its bad now then you must have not been around for what raiding was before. You people won't ever be happy, just go play on a GM server so you can do whatever you want in the pixels you want, and summon any content you want to kill. Obviously p99 isn't the experience some of you are seeking.

The scene is not fine when people have full groups chilling ready to FTE mobs for entire 16 hour windows.

[fadetree]

Look, people, there is no solution. Get over it. You can adjust how much it annoys different groups of people, but you can't fix it.

[Lazie]

so here's a question then....

What does C want?

many cite no change at all or even better, remove most the current rulesets...

If Class R doesnt know what kind of things Class C wants, it makes it very hard to find a middle ground to compromise

( hence why FFAs are such clusters and why R's solution has been to essentially get rid of the only time where C/R meet on the battle field on a regular basis )

Less rules is better. Using CotH to me is the same as gating to a spawn. Which the staff has a firm stance against.

This isn't to open a can of worms, but the truth needs to be admitted here. Taken first tried to gate to spawns on FFA mobs. They were also the first to put mages on FFA spawns. We were clear from Day one we would rather race. I personally want to race and what Haynor just posted is an even better resolution. The only thing is with Haynor's resolution it comes down to people being at character select instead of in game. The poopsock is still there it's just has the extra barrier of hitting "Enter World".

Class C raids every week with the rules they prefer and have minimal problems or headaches regardless of what some folks outside of Class C says. The reason why is the rules are limited and simple to follow. I think applying something similar to FFA and lowering the variance would have an effect you guys would appreciate in the long run. You just can't see it until you apply it to practice.

[Oleris]

change 7 day spawns to something like ragefire so they become 1-7 day variance....

[Korben]

change 7 day spawns to something like ragefire so they become 1-7 day variance....

You underestimate the depth of socks, lad

[Thulack]

It is impossible to stop the socking. The nature of the game requires it. Change the nature of the game if you want to stop the socking.

Instancing was a great way to stop socking :D

[Chrysus]

The scene is not fine when people have full groups chilling ready to FTE mobs for entire 16 hour windows.

That will never change. You can come up with a huge list of rules of where people cannot go, and it will still be "full groups chilling" in the ideal place permitted by the rules with an engagement plan, and it just becomes about who zones faster.

[toolshed]

Oh this thread again?

[xexbis0]

At this point its more likely that variance will go UP if you guys can't stop poopsocking. I know everyone remembers that we specifically set no more poopsocking as a condition of this, and it's literally gotten 10x worse with ducking mages and the like. Its become worse, not better, so there's no reason to continue on with the reduced variance that everyone promised would stop the socking

I can hear Sirken silently nodding, agreeing with everything I just said.

And population will go DOWN again since you're reverting to the previously aforementioned raid scene that was killing this server. Variance going back up is one of the dumbest fixes to a non-existent problem to come out of the staff's mouth.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The rules should be simple. One tracker in zone. Tracker cannot get or be involved with FTE.

And no poopsocking. That includes staging raid forces, whether they are camped nearby or just sitting waiting on a spawn. This includes being gathered in a common location, waiting for a pop, and a rapid port. Putting 5 groups in 5 diff zones, just waiting for a pop and doing little else, is still poopsocking.

No variance.

And thats all I have to say about that.

H

Gonna need logs of who was grouped with who and who was bound where! I SWEAR TO GOD IF THAT WAS A GATE POT YOU'RE GROUNDED MISTER.

[Lazie]

Gonna need logs of who was grouped with who and who was bound where! I SWEAR TO GOD IF THAT WAS A GATE POT YOU'RE GROUNDED MISTER.

Rare Spawn with a terrible loot table. Ladies and Gentlemen I present Heallun Rumblebelly.

[-Catherin-]

This isn't to open a can of worms, but the truth needs to be admitted here. Taken first tried to gate to spawns on FFA mobs. They were also the first to put mages on FFA spawns. We were clear from Day one we would rather race.



http://i.imgur.com/gw7QQid.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

[Wenuven]

I didn't read all 10 pages of this crap because I'm not involved in the raid scene yet, but...

There are what, 13 guilds in Class R? Getting rid of trackers or adjusting the variance is never going to solve the problem that there are way too many guilds competing for the same targets.

Reduce the spawn times. Dramatically. Get rid of FTE for 90% of the targets and put everyone on a very clear rotation. Everyone wins.

It's not classic. But neither is the server. Many things about the environment here are WORLDS apart from how they were in classic. Sure you are going to put way more raid loot onto the server. But there are also way more raiders here to begin with.

I don't think ANYONE actually wants poopsocking to be a necessary part of raiding on this server. So why not just do something to actually solve the problem instead of dancing around the "it's not classic" excuse while everyone is constantly at each other's throats over the raid scene.

[Juhstin]

Harder to sock on Red server, come here.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

http://i.imgur.com/bvBQkUP.jpg

[arsenalpow]

I didn't read all 10 pages of this crap because I'm not involved in the raid scene yet, but...

There are what, 13 guilds in Class R? Getting rid of trackers or adjusting the variance is never going to solve the problem that there are way too many guilds competing for the same targets.

Reduce the spawn times. Dramatically. Get rid of FTE for 90% of the targets and put everyone on a very clear rotation. Everyone wins.

It's not classic. But neither is the server. Many things about the environment here are WORLDS apart from how they were in classic. Sure you are going to put way more raid loot onto the server. But there are also way more raiders here to begin with.

I don't think ANYONE actually wants poopsocking to be a necessary part of raiding on this server. So why not just do something to actually solve the problem instead of dancing around the "it's not classic" excuse while everyone is constantly at each other's throats over the raid scene.

Just to set you straight, there's about 10 guilds willing to rotate our third of the pie and two other guilds holding the server hostage

[Juhstin]

Can also just forget the raid mobs in general. Have everyone in rotation and every repop day a chest spawns for said guild and they just get the loot for the giving week from all raid mobs. Then people won't cry about poopsocking raid loot.

[Wenuven]

Just to set you straight, there's about 10 guilds willing to rotate our third of the pie and two other guilds holding the server hostage

Forgive me, I'm somewhat new here. What I interpret you saying is that all class R guilds are willing to rotate, but IB and TMO are poopsocking all the FTE targets for themselves?

[Lazie]

http://i.imgur.com/gw7QQid.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

False. This isn't RNF btw. Try to act with decorum of the forum we post in. I understand you want to deflect blame, but remember most of us were there on those spawns and saw it with our own eyes.

[arsenalpow]

Forgive me, I'm somewhat new here. What I interpret you saying is that all class R guilds are willing to rotate, but IB and TMO are poopsocking all the FTE targets for themselves?

Yes.

[Lazie]

As usual you can't have a civil discussion without Chest coming into a thread with his warped view of events. Chest if you want to cause argumentative responses to factually incorrect statements you make please take it to RNF.

[-Catherin-]

False. This isn't RNF btw. Try to act with decorum of the forum we post in. I understand you want to deflect blame, but remember most of us were there on those spawns and saw it with our own eyes.

I know its not RnF. maybe you should think about that before taking more shots at us and get back to the actual subject, instead of blaming Taken for all of your troubles. Because guess what, you are no better. And that was the point I was making.

[Hailto]

I know its not RnF. maybe you should think about that before taking more shots at us and get back to the actual subject, instead of blaming Taken for all of your troubles. Because guess what, you are no better. And that was the point I was making.

Is it true you use voice software to make yourself appear female?

[Lazie]

I know its not RnF. maybe you should think about that before taking more shots at us and get back to the actual subject, instead of blaming Taken for all of your troubles. Because guess what, you are no better. And that was the point I was making.

What ? Are we even having the same discussion here ? I took no shot at you. I posted a fact about what caused the raid scene to become what it is currently. It was Taken who turned it into what it is. Everyone freely admits this in other discussions. I used it as a point of reference. If you can't understand how to have an adult discussion please remove yourself from the discussion.

[Joyelle]

...aaand off to RnF this goes, another one down the crapper, boys!

Congratulations! You did it!

[Hailto]

...aaand off to RnF this goes, another one down the crapper, boys!

Congratulations! You did it!

Sorry man.

Catherin is fucking creepy tho.

[Lazie]

...aaand off to RnF this goes, another one down the crapper, boys!

Congratulations! You did it!

Yeah that was unfortunate.

[Korben]

I didn't read all 10 pages of this crap because I'm not involved in the raid scene yet, but...

There are what, 13 guilds in Class R? Getting rid of trackers or adjusting the variance is never going to solve the problem that there are way too many guilds competing for the same targets.

Reduce the spawn times. Dramatically. Get rid of FTE for 90% of the targets and put everyone on a very clear rotation. Everyone wins.

It's not classic. But neither is the server. Many things about the environment here are WORLDS apart from how they were in classic. Sure you are going to put way more raid loot onto the server. But there are also way more raiders here to begin with.

I don't think ANYONE actually wants poopsocking to be a necessary part of raiding on this server. So why not just do something to actually solve the problem instead of dancing around the "it's not classic" excuse while everyone is constantly at each other's throats over the raid scene.

Maybe we need people like this guy who's hearts aren't so tainted by the poop in their socks and the pixels in their bags.

He's got very good point, and the raiding population on this server is grossly in excess of what this content was designed to accommodate.

What if all respawn timers were made classic, then cut by 2/3rds, and given +/- 1 hour variance?

Numbers are rough but this lets more people get more loot and is somewhat of a scaleable way to handle the mass demand for these mobs.

Exclude VP or let the guilds who could handle VP come up with VP specific rules, since that's it's own beast.

[Daldaen]

False. This isn't RNF btw. Try to act with decorum of the forum we post in. I understand you want to deflect blame, but remember most of us were there on those spawns and saw it with our own eyes.

Don't think I was at either gategate or CotHgate.

But I believe the gate situation was... nagafen?

We saw what TMO and IB did on the previous one or two FFAs. You'd aggro all the FGs and train them away while a 52 warrior and 52 Donals Cleric offtanked nagafen while the rest of you dealt with your train.

We saw that and figured, we don't have any Donals but would still like to compete, so we decided to bind a few clerics and druids there so that we could do the same strategy of training away Giants while offtanking the dragon while the main force kills said Giants.

Ended up getting a ruling that binding nearby was not allowed.

Regardless to quote Unbrella:

P99 needs fewer rules. The more rules you've created the less creativity there is for overcoming 'competition' and more creativity in rule lawyering the grey area.

A rule was added which reduced creativity as a result of rule lawyering. We had an obstacle we met (not being able to utilize the same strategy that allowed our competition to offtank a dragon while the real challenge the 20 fire giant train is dealt with), we decided we didn't want to farm 400k to buy one so we came up with that strategy, which was a creative way to allow us to compete.

Your guilds didn't need to gate since you could just face track with your MT and BP Cleric and duo Naggy while the rest of the force lazily clears in or deals with the trains.

CotHing I'm pretty sure was just the raid leaders figuring that everyone read the rules the same and that CotHing to engage was the next clear path of FTE. There was even discussion about it beforehand whether it should be allowed or not on these forums.

After the first dragon everyone did it, whether we were there or not. Pretty sure this is still the case. How was FFA VS at 4 AM? A foot race or a CotH race? Genuinely curious... Cause I don't think you have foot racers chilling for FFA targets when we aren't even there. You bring Mages regardless.

[-Catherin-]

Maybe we need people like this guy who's hearts aren't so tainted by the poop in their socks and the pixels in their bags.

He's got very good point, and the raiding population on this server is grossly in excess of what this content was designed to accommodate.

What if all respawn timers were made classic, then cut by 2/3rds, and given +/- 1 hour variance?

Numbers are rough but this lets more people get more loot and is somewhat of a scaleable way to handle the mass demand for these mobs.

Exclude VP or let the guilds who could handle VP come up with VP specific rules, since that's it's own beast.

Id like to see a number of things like this to happen but the issue is that staff has made pretty clear to us is that they are not considering anything that requires more changes to the code. They want us to all learn how to play nice and come to an agreement together.

[Joyelle]

Maybe we need people like this guy who's hearts aren't so tainted by the poop in their socks and the pixels in their bags.

He's got very good point, and the raiding population on this server is grossly in excess of what this content was designed to accommodate.

What if all respawn timers were made classic, then cut by 2/3rds, and given +/- 1 hour variance?

Numbers are rough but this lets more people get more loot and is somewhat of a scaleable way to handle the mass demand for these mobs.

Exclude VP or let the guilds who could handle VP come up with VP specific rules, since that's it's own beast.

I remember this type of thing being proposed before, but ultimately the upper echelon of the raid scene shot it down because the argument was that it would devalue their pixels. I'm pretty sure people have even proposed it with greatly diminished loot tables and it was met with a wall of Not Classic.

[Erati]

It was Taken who turned it into what it is. Everyone freely admits this in other discussions. I used it as a point of reference. If you can't understand how to have an adult discussion please remove yourself from the discussion.

What?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1532116&postcount=1

dated 7/15/14 when he amended this to allow for mages to track ( after much uproar )

Its 10/28/2014

So around 3 months of this 'style' of raiding has single handily ruined the raid scene?

Give me a break.

3 months of having mages dominate tracking did not ruin the raid scene, not even close, the raid scene was already reaching boiling points in several areas ( mainly FFA) BEFORE Sirken made that post.....its why...'gasp'....he even instituted a change

Its like you guys dont even remember javspam-autofire tagging

Oh right that was only Taken doing that as well.

I guess Taken is pretty much responsible for the raid changes too since our leader was a part of those discussions, might as well give us credit for that since we already get credit for the other stuff we didnt create.

back on subject


Lazie I totally understand your point about creating a barrier of entry for new raid guilds (or current ones) that basically requires them to make a guild mage account to participate in FFA. I get that. Makes sense that theres a fundamental problem with that because its dumb to require ANYTHING that specific to join in when everyone should have a pretty equal shot at getting the encounter cept for gear/experience/skill.

The racing tho, is not the perfect solution, its another band aid solution albeit one that would provide us with something different for a couple months.

So if TMO's goal is to give us something different for now with no big changes to the overall feel than thats fine and all, but we are trying to figure out what can be done to the overall fundamental feel within the confines of R/C/FFA system.

The only thing I like about racing is anyone can do it.

There are many things I dislike about racing, so many I am not going to list them again.

If we could standard issue mages with COH to any guild that wanted to try FFA, it would be as close to level playing field and easy to police as we can get.

Problem is it's ridiculous to have that much power to 1 class in the raid game's success or fail.

So, besides racing and besides mages and besides repops are FFA R/C


what other ideas we got? there are smart people out there...

[Raev]

Any changes have to happen in the code. I would think the past four years have taught us that.

Also, lets not kick the current system too hard. It has plenty of problems, but the R rotation and more frequent repops are huge, huge improvements.

[Korben]

Id like to see a number of things like this to happen but the issue is that staff has made pretty clear to us is that they are not considering anything that requires more changes to the code. They want us to all learn how to play nice and come to an agreement together.

I remember this type of thing being proposed before, but ultimately the upper echelon of the raid scene shot it down because the argument was that it would devalue their pixels. I'm pretty sure people have even proposed it with greatly diminished loot tables and it was met with a wall of Not Classic.


Catherin,

What if the answer is we can't play nicely together?

Joyelle,

Same sort of question. If people can't play nicely together because they don't want their pixels devalued, I think we've identified the problem.



When the overwhelming majority of the server is mostly(I fucking said mostly, please don't nit pick) in agreeable position on how to handle a situation that has been so hotly debated, and a very small portion of the server is unwilling to budge because of their irrational fears of lootflation, isn't it an easy decision to do what benefits the overwhelming majority, who can concede certain points to the "other side" in pursuit of a better environment for all?

[Erati]

Any changes have to happen in the code. I would think the past four years have taught us that.

Also, lets not kick the current system too hard. It has plenty of problems, but the R rotation and more frequent repops are huge, huge improvements.

right I agree

some have problem with the current barrier of entry to the FFA scene ( a guild coh mage account )

which is a legit concern, however there doesnt seem to be many options to change that besides some kind of convoluted COH ducking agreement but it still requires a mage to be brought to the spawn point to gate in the FTEer

Dald poses a great question tho: this past FFA VS, did IB and TMO use mages? Because Taken was not there at all.......

[-Catherin-]

Catherin,

What if the answer is we can't play nicely together?



I don't know :( Only way is to find a way to convince staff, but they seem to have taken a pretty hard stance on no code change.

I don't have much faith in the two classes coming together on anything either, as we are basically worlds apart on how we think the game should be enjoyed. And I personally think any change will have to be code too.

[Erati]

Catherin,

What if the answer is we can't play nicely together?

Joyelle,

Same sort of question. If people can't play nicely together because they don't want their pixels devalued, I think we've identified the problem.



When the overwhelming majority of the server is mostly(I fucking said mostly, please don't nit pick) in agreeable position on how to handle a situation that has been so hotly debated, and a very small portion of the server is unwilling to budge because of their irrational fears of lootflation, isn't it an easy decision to do what benefits the overwhelming majority, who can concede certain points to the "other side" in pursuit of a better environment for all?

Its how we got to the current ruleset we have today.

and that was pulling teeth....

Theres not going to be much in the way of 'benefiting the overwhelming majority' because in the more hardcore's mindset and eyes they were the only ones giving up things ( spawns ) with any agreement.

So while the casual community has the 'majority' of the playerbase, the problem is they have no bargaining chips that the hardcores want or wanted rather since they are the ones who controlled all the raid targets.

Since casuals did not have much to offer that the hardcores werent already getting 100% of, there was very little movement with anyone's proposals til the Staff stepped in and slapped each side around.

[wwoneo]

When the overwhelming majority of the server is mostly(I fucking said mostly, please don't nit pick) in agreeable position on how to handle a situation that has been so hotly debated, and a very small portion of the server is unwilling to budge because of their irrational fears of lootflation, isn't it an easy decision to do what benefits the overwhelming majority, who can concede certain points to the "other side" in pursuit of a better environment for all?
This is starting to sound an awful lot like a World of Warcraft Motto/Mission Statement.

[kaev]

...
When the overwhelming majority of the server is mostly(I fucking said mostly, please don't nit pick) in agreeable position on how to handle a situation that has been so hotly debated, and a very small portion of the server is unwilling to budge because of their irrational fears of lootflation, isn't it an easy decision to do what benefits the overwhelming majority, who can concede certain points to the "other side" in pursuit of a better embodiment for all?

There's probably good intentions there, but we all know what paves the path to hell. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny, it still sucks, and you know it would never stop at "we're just gonna put TMO and IB in their place."

I'm a CasualScum[tm] and a ChestCrony[tm], and I could not disagree more with your suggestion. It's fine to express frustration in those terms, but that's no way to run an EQ server.

[Wenuven]

I remember this type of thing being proposed before, but ultimately the upper echelon of the raid scene shot it down because the argument was that it would devalue their pixels. I'm pretty sure people have even proposed it with greatly diminished loot tables and it was met with a wall of Not Classic.

I wonder if they would be more willing to implement this at Velious launch.

That way most Kunark loot is already going to implode in value, and any new uber loot from Velious will be addressed before it is stockpiled.

[Lazie]

What?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1532116&postcount=1

dated 7/15/14 when he amended this to allow for mages to track ( after much uproar )

Its 10/28/2014

So around 3 months of this 'style' of raiding has single handily ruined the raid scene?

Give me a break.

Did I say it ruined anything ? I talked about the current way things happen now and the cause of it. Remember Sirken had to make that post because Taken attempted to gate on a Nagafen characters they had bound there.

3 months of having mages dominate tracking did not ruin the raid scene, not even close, the raid scene was already reaching boiling points in several areas ( mainly FFA) BEFORE Sirken made that post.....its why...'gasp'....he even instituted a change

Again. Where did I use the word ruined ? I'm confused. You asked my opinion of what Class C wants. I pointed to a instance that made FFA what it is and then explained my stance about racing. I never said it ruined anything.

Its like you guys dont even remember javspam-autofire tagging

Oh right that was only Taken doing that as well.

You might want to bury this part of the topic. Just will cause more arguing. There was only one suspension for autofire after all.

I guess Taken is pretty much responsible for the raid changes too since our leader was a part of those discussions, might as well give us credit for that since we already get credit for the other stuff we didnt create.

Uhm, Yes Taken created the cothing to spawns on the FFA cycle. Stop trying to hide that fact behind rhetoric. No one is saying you ruined anything or blame you for anything bad. It's just what got the FFA spawns to what they currently are.

back on subject


Lazie I totally understand your point about creating a barrier of entry for new raid guilds (or current ones) that basically requires them to make a guild mage account to participate in FFA. I get that. Makes sense that theres a fundamental problem with that because its dumb to require ANYTHING that specific to join in when everyone should have a pretty equal shot at getting the encounter cept for gear/experience/skill.

The racing tho, is not the perfect solution, its another band aid solution albeit one that would provide us with something different for a couple months.

So if TMO's goal is to give us something different for now with no big changes to the overall feel than thats fine and all, but we are trying to figure out what can be done to the overall fundamental feel within the confines of R/C/FFA system.

The only thing I like about racing is anyone can do it.

There are many things I dislike about racing, so many I am not going to list them again.

If we could standard issue mages with COH to any guild that wanted to try FFA, it would be as close to level playing field and easy to police as we can get.

Problem is it's ridiculous to have that much power to 1 class in the raid game's success or fail.

So, besides racing and besides mages and besides repops are FFA R/C


what other ideas we got? there are smart people out there...

Again. Racing is what Sirken also specified in your post as to what the GM's want to see. You linked it, reread it. Class C took this literally and it is what we do. It's fun and easy to police. You guys seem to want to continue to create a barrier of entry for guilds on FFA spawns based on whether a person wants to CotH duck or not.

We can play the game that way as it is as well on FFA spawns and not worry about changes. You seem to be over thinking the problem. It doesn't need some grand change to rework everything that it is. It just needs to be tweaked to allow more approachability. The things you are arguing for just doesn't add to a more competitive raid scene that more of the server can take part in. Not many guilds outside of the ones currently getting kills on repops are going to benefit from an all FFA repop situation.

[toolshed]

1) Enable the classic feature /guildwar

2) Any time there is a petition, the guild that is petitioning must /guildwar the other guild

3) Once /guildwar is enabled, all monsters each guild goes after is FFA and contested through PvP

4) Guildwar is only disabled after each side has come to a mutual agreement

^^^ Only pure classic option given in this thread that doesn't involve LawyerQuest + Fraps 24/7 + Massive poopsocking

[Joyelle]

I wonder if they would be more willing to implement this at Velious launch.

I don't see that happening at Velious launch either. The hardcores keep saying Velious will keep them busy enough that the casuals will have better chances at Kunark and Old World mobs. I will believe it when I see it.

[Clark]

Catherin,

What if the answer is we can't play nicely together?

Joyelle,

Same sort of question. If people can't play nicely together because they don't want their pixels devalued, I think we've identified the problem.



When the overwhelming majority of the server is mostly(I fucking said mostly, please don't nit pick) in agreeable position on how to handle a situation that has been so hotly debated, and a very small portion of the server is unwilling to budge because of their irrational fears of lootflation, isn't it an easy decision to do what benefits the overwhelming majority, who can concede certain points to the "other side" in pursuit of a better environment for all?

http://i.imgur.com/M53adDP.jpg

[kaev]

1) Enable the classic feature /guildwar

2) Any time there is a petition, the guild that is petitioning must /guildwar the other guild

3) Once /guildwar is enabled, all monsters each guild goes after is FFA and contested through PvP

4) Guildwar is only disabled after each side has come to a mutual agreement

^^^ Only pure classic option given in this thread that doesn't involve LawyerQuest + Fraps 24/7 + Massive poopsocking

Sounds like a recipe for even more massive poopsocking to me. "Gotta have full turnout buffed and PvP geared so we can petition the FTE as soon as it happens!!!! We'll pwn those jerks and gank the mob after!!!!"

[Joyelle]

http://i.imgur.com/M53adDP.jpg
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100710031843/friends/images/d/d0/Howyoudoin'.jpg

[Korben]

http://i.imgur.com/M53adDP.jpg

I actually laughed at this one.

Also it's hard for me to do multiple quotes on my phone so I will just reply here in regards to my last post being stabbed to death.

In regards to the ultra-hardcore wanting their loots, and the casual scum also wanting loots, what is the actual negative of increasing the frequency of respawns to be more in line with the overwhelming amount of players competing for limited spawns?

Aside from the ultra-hardcore not being able to call the rest of us casual scum if there's more people with similar non-VP loot as their 7th alt?

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/1nMmfTv.jpg

[Korben]

Theres not going to be much in the way of 'benefiting the overwhelming majority' because in the more hardcore's mindset and eyes they were the only ones giving up things ( spawns ) with any agreement.


What would the hardcore be giving up by tripling the spawn rate of the pixel genies?

[Joyelle]

What would the hardcore be giving up by tripling the spawn rate of the pixel genies?

the exclusivity of their pixels

[iruinedyourday]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V8J6RmK9n1o/U5kepwncEXI/AAAAAAAAHF0/A5DshaSfPto/s1600/Hook3.gif

[Lazie]

Let's deal with reality here a moment for all you Class R guilds.

Right now with the C/R/FFA rotation on mobs the repops brings more mobs to Class R for your rotation.

What is being proposed is a C/R rotation on regular spawns and making repops FFA. For this upcoming week There are 5 C targets outside of VP. 4 R targets and 3 FFA. If it went Full C/R it would simply rotate 6 C and 6 R each week (Trak,Draco and Maestro more obviously but we are just doing a demonstration here.) 24 mobs a month for your R rotation if you change it to that.

Currently as you see there are 4 R mobs. In the 3 way cycle it usually goes 5,3,4,5 etc for each specific class. Or 17 mobs each month for R. Now these mobs still cycle with repops. So say you get 3 repops to add to that 5,3,4,5,3,4,5. 29 R mobs a month on average in this demonstration. Sometimes you will only get 2 repops of course and this also cuts down to 24. Making REPOPS Full FFA cuts off the available mobs on the rotation a lot of your members agreed to. The smaller guilds in that rotation don't compete well on FFA spawns on repops. So they have to wait in that line for lesser mobs on the actual rotation. This looks more like a move that limits mobs to the smaller guilds.

[Haynar]

1) Enable the classic feature /guildwar

2) Any time there is a petition, the guild that is petitioning must /guildwar the other guild

3) Once /guildwar is enabled, all monsters each guild goes after is FFA and contested through PvP

4) Guildwar is only disabled after each side has come to a mutual agreement

^^^ Only pure classic option given in this thread that doesn't involve LawyerQuest + Fraps 24/7 + Massive poopsocking
I have a few things on my list first. But I will try to look at getting a functional /guildwar.

H

[xexbis0]

I don't see that happening at Velious launch either. The hardcores keep saying Velious will keep them busy enough that the casuals will have better chances at Kunark and Old World mobs. I will believe it when I see it.

It certainly will on sim repops. If they decide to race Kunark, they're going to lose certain Velious mobs.

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/JQcxM5W.jpg

[HeallunRumblebelly]

It certainly will on sim repops. If they decide to race Kunark, they're going to lose certain Velious mobs.

Until the fear revamp, there isn't a single thing worth prioritizing in the old world on a repop. For the first 3-6 months especially, ST keys are just way, way, way, way, too valuable to fuck with anything else. Current class R guilds can probably snag a tormax/statue here and there. because zlandi / klandi / yeli / leni / sont are just far too valuable. Even with just a few keys MOTG / Prog are hilarious pushovers (especially if they let us keep our BPs for a bit -- CLASSIC TIMELINE NILBOG) and really the warders are standard velious fare except ventani who can be a bit of a monster. Really going to need resists to be working properly for that shit to work. Getting max hit with a gorenaire aoe isn't gonna last long.

edit: And most of old world raid encounters become near pointless when velious launches, unlike when kunark launched. Epics either become much easier to attain (mage staff from minis, bard guts from undead trak, vs stones from summoned vs, summoned faydedar etc. etc.) or just outright replaceable like pal/sk epics. BPs from trakanon become twink pieces (and not even good ones at that -- MQing some skyshrine armor isn't exactly hard when you can just tag faction from arena farms), most of VP becomes absolute garbage, especially if they follow timeline and remove things like blood orchid. Inny becomes what, for eyes of innoruuk? CT for...AoNs I guess, until revamp.

[Gimp]

Without reading this thread, I'm gonna make a few assumptions.

1 - Chest has made an appearance talking about championing a class R rotation, server hero status
2 - Someone has mentioned Taken and coth ducking at least twice, probably way more than that though.
3 - Clark has posted lots of pics that make absolutely no sense and add nothing to the discussion
4 - Nothing gets solved from this and this thread will easily reach 30 pages.

How'd I do?

[arsenalpow]

Without reading this thread, I'm gonna make a few assumptions.

1 - Chest has made an appearance talking about championing a class R rotation, server hero status
2 - Someone has mentioned Taken and coth ducking at least twice, probably way more than that though.
3 - Clark has posted lots of pics that make absolutely no sense and add nothing to the discussion
4 - Nothing gets solved from this and this thread will easily reach 30 pages.

How'd I do?

4/4 !

[-Catherin-]

I havnt really crunched the numbers but I feel like C/R and then FFA on repops benefits both sides to some degree.

Yes it means mobs become Class R every two weeks instead of three, but it also means Class C is every two weeks instead of three as well. That's an increase for both sides, seeing as how there are only two guilds in Class C, its a greater increase for you.

FFA repops also solves all the current issues with the FFA cycle and allows everyone to compete the way it was meant to be played. ...in my opinion anyways. but coding

[Gimp]

So if there's no more FFA spawns, is Taken still going to employ their coth-duck for 16 hours strategy? Or is that only to spite class C guilds?

[arsenalpow]

So if there's no more FFA spawns, is Taken still going to employ their coth-duck for 16 hours strategy? Or is that only to spite class C guilds?

its only to spite class C guilds, they are a model member of the rotation during class R kills

[Gimp]

Nobody's gonna read all that shit

[Buhbuh]

Play Red and eliminate all these problems today!

We all have dreams... I know I do!

[Joyelle]

I have dreams where all these threads aren't peppered with "Play Red!" posts. And then I wake up.

[Erati]

just love the fact back in the day if you complained about someone 'jav-spamming' for FTE they would say

LOL WUT TRY HARDER BRO....I LIVE TO JAV SPAM

even tho it was highly likely many people were cheating and getting away with automated jav-spam

Right now we have a system that is basically the same thing as jav-spam ( coh ducking) however its impossible to autofire your COH duck so now that PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO PRESS THEIR BUTTONS...the complaints are

OMGZ GUYZ PLS STOP!!!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN THIS IS INHUMANE


just hypocritical all around, but I agree with Lazie that mages create an unfair barrier of entry for any guild that wants to dip into the FFA pool.

and while Sirken does mention binding in the post I linked, surely when he said 'mages are ok' that he understood COHing would be a part of that....

[toolshed]

I have a few things on my list first. But I will try to look at getting a functional /guildwar.

H

This made my week! Thank you so much!

I'm sure you know, but I just want to provide a link to the thread we started in the Bugs subforum: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168376

[HeallunRumblebelly]

just love the fact back in the day if you complained about someone 'jav-spamming' for FTE they would say

LOL WUT TRY HARDER BRO....I LIVE TO JAV SPAM

even tho it was highly likely many people were cheating and getting away with automated jav-spam

Right now we have a system that is basically the same thing as jav-spam ( coh ducking) however its impossible to autofire your COH duck so now that PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO PRESS THEIR BUTTONS...the complaints are

OMGZ GUYZ PLS STOP!!!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN THIS IS INHUMANE


just hypocritical all around, but I agree with Lazie that mages create an unfair barrier of entry for any guild that wants to dip into the FFA pool.

and while Sirken does mention binding in the post I linked, surely when he said 'mages are ok' that he understood COHing would be a part of that....

Any macro keyboard can automate a coth duck. Still need to be at the computer for the most part, but you needed to for jav spamming as well. Macro that will cast, wait 9 seconds, duck, cancel cast, repeat. Simply disable it (toggle switches work on the razer keyboards / G series) when the mob spawns. I guarantee more than a few are doing this exact thing. It does however eliminate ping based advantages so that's something.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

This made my week! Thank you so much!

Guildwar is optional, however, unlike your suggestion :P

edit: You know, I dislike this feb 2010 date. Was here from the first goddamn day on Poplockin. Didn't have a whole lot of reason to post on the boards kiting in the karanas though, heh.

[Juryiel]

Without reading the thread (so these may have been suggested), ways to completely eliminate poopsocking:

1. Everything is rotated, no races
2. Everyone is given an ability that self-ports you to a random EQ zone. You must use this ability once after a raid mob spawns prior to being allowed to engage it. Using this ability at any other time is somehow prevented.
3. Everything spawns at once.
4. Everyone has the option to immediately teleport to a mob's zone when mob pops.

Most of these are horrible suggestions but without eliminating the benefit of poopsocking, or clearly defining what it is and banning it by some simple rule (and you must be content with the specific thing you define as poopsocking as players will exploit the technicalities of the definition to the max), you will not get rid of it.

It is even difficult for players themselves to come to a no poopsocking agreement because server staff value and promote competition, and poopsocking is by far one of the largest determining factors of who will win said competition. In fact it makes almost no sense to promote 'competition' but be against 'poopsocking' with the current ruleset since they both amount to generally the same thing.

[Uuruk]

My question is how is it fun to compete with 10 guilds raiding on blue? What enjoyment do you get out of being told what mobs you can kill?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

My question is how is it fun to compete with 10 guilds raiding on blue? What enjoyment do you get out of being told what mobs you can kill?

See, these are the red recruitment messages I can get behind. Gotta keep that shit insidious.

[Lazie]

I havnt really crunched the numbers but I feel like C/R and then FFA on repops benefits both sides to some degree.

Yes it means mobs become Class R every two weeks instead of three, but it also means Class C is every two weeks instead of three as well. That's an increase for both sides, seeing as how there are only two guilds in Class C, its a greater increase for you.

FFA repops also solves all the current issues with the FFA cycle and allows everyone to compete the way it was meant to be played. ...in my opinion anyways. but coding

It's less mobs overall for the rotation you guys setup to "Help smaller guilds". It means those guilds that aren't good at mobilizing for FFA repops have to wait even longer to see content. The FFA repops only benefit guilds that already can kill FFA targets on respawns.

[-Catherin-]

It's less mobs overall for the rotation you guys setup to "Help smaller guilds". It means those guilds that aren't good at mobilizing for FFA repops have to wait even longer to see content. The FFA repops only benefit guilds that already can kill FFA targets on respawns.

you realize they havnt been getting any FFAs already right. if everything is FFA they could pick a target and focus and might actually have a shot. And it would be more overall for them too even if they are still unable to get a FFA, because 2 weeks for R instead of 3. C and R both come and go quicker.

[Raev]

Making REPOPS Full FFA cuts off the available mobs on the rotation a lot of your members agreed to.

And yet all of the R guilds want that anyway, clearly because we hate competition

[Lazie]

you realize they havnt been getting any FFAs already right. if everything is FFA they could pick a target and focus and might actually have a shot. And it would be more overall for them too even if they are still unable to get a FFA, because 2 weeks for R instead of 3. C and R both come and go quicker.

So you want to move to a system that benefits your guild more correct ? Let's be clear on this.

[Lazie]

And yet all of the R guilds want that anyway, clearly because we hate competition

No. I doubt most understand that fact.

[Raev]

Right now we have a system that is basically the same thing as jav-spam ( coh ducking) however its impossible to autofire your COH duck so now that PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO PRESS THEIR BUTTONS...the complaints are.

It would easy to write an autohotkey script to make this purely automatic. I could even have it scan the log file and abort the ducking automatically. If anyone has a Prayers of Life they aren't that attached to, I think I can make this happen.

[toolshed]

So you want to move to a system that benefits your guild more correct ? Let's be clear on this.

Isn't that just human nature? Don't the big banks want less regulation of their financial transactions?

[Raev]

No. I doubt most understand that fact.

Prove it

[-Catherin-]

So you want to move to a system that benefits your guild more correct ? Let's be clear on this.

I believe I said it felt it benefited EVERYONE. Taken already hits our bag limit almost every single repop.

[Uuruk]

I believe I said it felt it benefited EVERYONE. Taken already hits our bag limit almost every single repop.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55731175.jpg

couldnt find the meme for the 400 pound overweight dude who uses a voice changer. Sorry pals.

[Lazie]

Prove it.

It's quite simple. Most vocal people about this change is Taken and BDA. Have the smaller guilds been told they have to sacrifice mobs that they agreed to on a rotation because a few larger guilds want more kills on repops ?

[arsenalpow]

It's quite simple. Most vocal people about this change is Taken and BDA. Have the smaller guilds been told they have to sacrifice mobs that they agreed to on a rotation because a few larger guilds want more kills on repops ?

they won't be sacrificing any mobs because you're an idiot

[Erati]

It's less mobs overall for the rotation you guys setup to "Help smaller guilds". It means those guilds that aren't good at mobilizing for FFA repops have to wait even longer to see content. The FFA repops only benefit guilds that already can kill FFA targets on respawns.


it also benefit those guilds who choose not to go after FFA targets on respawns

which is basically every guild but 3 currently

If a guild cant mobilize to kill a target when it spawns, no amount of rule changes will allow for that guild to be successful the majority of the time.

So while the race is cleaner in that all guilds big or small, competitive or not, can send their 2 'racers' of any level or class to the spot and hope for the best, it doesnt really change much besides a new label and packaging.

how about this code change that was a popular one.....randomize the spawn points.

If the dragons dont have set spawn points, having a mage face track is widely less effective than a ranger or bard or whatever

randomize the spawn points gets rid of mages being useful, hell even improves the 'race'.

it doesnt solve poopsocking tho, but like we said earlier in this thread until the staff:

1. Defines poopsocking for them
2. alter how you fundamentally play EQ

People will always sit there, many of times simply afk anyway.

[Lazie]

I believe I said it felt it benefited EVERYONE. Taken already hits our bag limit almost every single repop.

But it doesn't benefit EVERYONE. Doesn't matter what you feel or choose to sell to the smaller guilds. The whole point of the raid scene changes were to open up the content to everyone. You guys are trying to make a change that restricts the number of mobs available to smaller guilds. Facts are facts.

[Lazie]

they won't be sacrificing any mobs because you're an idiot

Uhm this isn't RNF Chest and Yes they will. Do the math honcho.

[Man0warr]

The math is simple - no Class R guilds except a couple get FFA kills outside of repops.

Therefore going from C/FFA/R to C/R is a straight 17% more mobs for Class R.

It doesn't hurt the smaller Class R guilds at all - they aren't getting FFA kills now so removing it from the equation does nothing to them but speed up the frequency of their Class R kills.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the FFA repops Lazie - they aren't frequent or predictable enough to factor into any math.

[Lazie]

it also benefit those guilds who choose not to go after FFA targets on respawns

which is basically every guild but 3 currently

If a guild cant mobilize to kill a target when it spawns, no amount of rule changes will allow for that guild to be successful the majority of the time.

So while the race is cleaner in that all guilds big or small, competitive or not, can send their 2 'racers' of any level or class to the spot and hope for the best, it doesnt really change much besides a new label and packaging.

how about this code change that was a popular one.....randomize the spawn points.

If the dragons dont have set spawn points, having a mage face track is widely less effective than a ranger or bard or whatever

randomize the spawn points gets rid of mages being useful, hell even improves the 'race'.

it doesnt solve poopsocking tho, but like we said earlier in this thread until the staff:

1. Defines poopsocking for them
2. alter how you fundamentally play EQ

People will always sit there, many of times simply afk anyway.


All of what you posted is mostly false. IF they don't have the resources to compete in the current environment of FFA spawns they won't have the resources to do so on repops. 12 mobs outside of VP on repops. 8 guilds. 2 kill bag limit. IB and TMO will go after VS rather quickly. That will leave 11. Taken and BDA will hit their bag limits. That will leave 7 between 6 guilds and TMO and IB. There simply is no room for the smaller guilds to mobilize quick enough to make it happen. This will be a pure gain for the haves not the have nots.

[Erati]

But it doesn't benefit EVERYONE. Doesn't matter what you feel or choose to sell to the smaller guilds. The whole point of the raid scene changes were to open up the content to everyone. You guys are trying to make a change that restricts the number of mobs available to smaller guilds. Facts are facts.

Yes, a sim repop would 'slow' the rotation down however....

R/C without a third cycle speeds up the rotation

Sim-repop being fully FFA means that smaller guilds who are waiting 8th for Trak or 10th for Inny could say F it we are going for Trak next repop whenever it happens

So the actual speed of the rotation is somewhat a wash mainly due to the fact that repops barely happen 2 times a month anyway ( so thats only a handful of times the 'rotation freezes' each month) however

the benefit to having it freeze would be more enticing options of mobs to kill, and a more fun overall experience for all the rotation guilds since they would not be limited to only their R target ( could be a Maestro) or for some guilds who are not up for an R target AND the FFA spawns are highly contested spawns

There really is no downside of this for Class R no matter how its spun.

The rotation freezes with the repops and thusly slows down but the amount it speeds up and the greater variety of gameplay would outweight that by large margins.

[Lazie]

The math is simple - no Class R guilds except a couple get FFA kills outside of repops.

Therefore going from C/FFA/R to C/R is a straight 17% more mobs for Class R.

It doesn't hurt the smaller Class R guilds at all - they aren't getting FFA kills now so removing it from the equation does nothing to them but speed up the frequency of their Class R kills.

No it isn't.

Repop mobs stop being Class R as well.

You only get 24 Class R mobs a month because of this.

In the months where there are 3 repops this is a 5 mob loss for Class R.

*The More You Know.gif* here

[Erati]

All of what you posted is mostly false. IF they don't have the resources to compete in the current environment of FFA spawns they won't have the resources to do so on repops. 12 mobs outside of VP on repops. 8 guilds. 2 kill bag limit. IB and TMO will go after VS rather quickly. That will leave 11. Taken and BDA will hit their bag limits. That will leave 7 between 6 guilds and TMO and IB. There simply is no room for the smaller guilds to mobilize quick enough to make it happen. This will be a pure gain for the haves not the have nots.

except in your own words you have clearly defined what those resources are ( guild coh bots )

Guild CoH bots have no place in a repop situation so that would not be 'holding anyone back'

All you need to compete in a repop environment is a batphone. Most guilds, Id wager even MLC, have a batphone of some kind.

You also have to remember the variety of mobs on a repop with this change completely makes what happens on our current repops null and void.

VS would see BDA, Taken, Asgard going for him well before IB/TMO

that situation would only happen on a Sim Repop FFA VS which is every 3rd spawn...which is only once or twice a month...which may not even coincide with FFA VS...you get my point

[Man0warr]

No it isn't.

Repop mobs stop being Class R as well.

You only get 24 Class R mobs a month because of this.

In the months where there are 3 repops this is a 5 mob loss for Class R.

We have gone 3 months with 1 sim repop before - there is no guarantee on when or how many we will get per month. If that is ever the case then you can factor it in.

Not having to mingle with Class C guilds is enough incentive for most of the Class R guilds - and the decrease in petitions from FFA interactions between Class R and C should be enough incentive for the GMs to consider it.

[Erati]

it would be slightly less designated R mobs if repops happened on schedule ( 2-3 times a month) simply bc it would freeze the rotation.

However with only one other tier for mobs to cycle, this 'freeze' would barely be noticeable compared to how fun it would be choosing any raid target in Norrath ( outside of VP) to go after the moment the ground shook

No guild resources besides a batphone and teleporters required

[Juryiel]

Actually I would imagine without class restrictions in FFA repops even smaller guilds would buddy up and get something.

[Lazie]

except in your own words you have clearly defined what those resources are ( guild coh bots )

Guild CoH bots have no place in a repop situation so that would not be 'holding anyone back'

All you need to compete in a repop environment is a batphone. Most guilds, Id wager even MLC, have a batphone of some kind.

You also have to remember the variety of mobs on a repop with this change completely makes what happens on our current repops null and void.

VS would see BDA, Taken, Asgard going for him well before IB/TMO

that situation would only happen on a Sim Repop FFA VS which is every 3rd spawn...which is only once or twice a month...which may not even coincide with FFA VS...you get my point

False. VS is gone after right away when the race for PD begins. Depending on who gets FTE on PD usually determines how fast VS gets engaged and dies. A guild with 30 raiders on a repop that happens in an off hour isn't going to get half of those people online. It has no benefit for the smaller guilds.

[Man0warr]

Actually I would imagine without class restrictions in FFA repops even smaller guilds would buddy up and get something.

They already do.

False. VS is gone after right away when the race for PD begins. Depending on who gets FTE on PD usually determines how fast VS gets engaged and dies. A guild with 30 raiders on a repop that happens in an off hour isn't going to get half of those people online. It has no benefit for the smaller guilds.

Yeah, those guilds don't have a chance at VS in that scenario now either. Whats your point?

[Erati]

Actually I would imagine without class restrictions in FFA repops even smaller guilds would buddy up and get something.

this too

the main problem TMO/IB have with this is its less mobs for them since they currently basically have a C/C/R system that is disguised as R/C/FFA

FFA mostly goes to Class C which is working as intended according to the Staff

having things go R/C and then repops full FFA are huge hits on Class C and big gains for R

until Class R can figure out how to make that 'less of a hit' on C, then they will never ever support it.

even if it would be a lot of fun.

[Erati]

False. VS is gone after right away when the race for PD begins. Depending on who gets FTE on PD usually determines how fast VS gets engaged and dies. A guild with 30 raiders on a repop that happens in an off hour isn't going to get half of those people online. It has no benefit for the smaller guilds.

totally missing my point.

VS is sometimes C on a repop.

VS is sometimes R on a repop.

VS is sometimes FFA on a repop.

A small class R guild can only go for VS on a repop when the repop happens while VS belongs to Class R AND they are up for it on rotation.

If VS was FFA every single repop, you bet your bottom dollar small guilds would pony up and figure something out considering he is a 'legal' target ever single repop where otherwise they have to wait like 5 months to see him.

This is why you ( Class C) are fighting tooth and nail for this ground swell of support to die down. It has no benefit for Class C guilds that already are enjoying a C/C/R system

thank you for making my point stronger.

If repops happened on schedule and as promised then MAYBE class R would consider C/C/R with FFA repops ( but VP included ) but that wont happen either it seems

[Juryiel]

They already do.


Yes exactly. And the point is that if there were many FFA targets available rather than a few, it would make this even more appealing. Right now if there are 5 things FFA during a repop, it's less incentive for smaller guilds to buddy up (that takes more time) to get one of them, because the larger R and C guilds which don't need to spend time organizing impromptu alliances may gobble them up before the smaller guilds can put something together.

I don't know, theoretically it seems like a good thing for class R to me, and also in general because the unexpected FFA competition is actually really fun to me since it doesn't rely on trackers but on mobilization. I can totally get behind 'competition' of this kind, moving fast from one target to the next etc, even though I mostly play EQ for PVE reasons. But you never know how these things play out until you try them out in practice.

[Daldaen]

Okay back on topic.

Only 2 in zone and no poopsocking on other side of zone.

Reduce Variance down to something like +/- 1 or 2 hours

K greaaaat.

[Lazie]

We have gone 3 months with 1 sim repop before - there is no guarantee on when or how many we will get per month. If that is ever the case then you can factor it in.

Not having to mingle with Class C guilds is enough incentive for most of the Class R guilds - and the decrease in petitions from FFA interactions between Class R and C should be enough incentive for the GMs to consider it.

These are the repops I can chase down just off raid logs. I'm sure I missed a few as a few weren't posted as repops.


2/16
2/23
3/2
3/12
3/29
4/20
5/14
6/27
7/19
7/24
8/13
9/8
9/19
9/23
9/27
10/26

Where did we only get one in 3 months ? I know I don't have all the ones before the TMO/FE merge I am sure we have had close to 20 repops in 9 months an average of over 2 a month.

[Lazie]

this too

the main problem TMO/IB have with this is its less mobs for them since they currently basically have a C/C/R system that is disguised as R/C/FFA

FFA mostly goes to Class C which is working as intended according to the Staff

having things go R/C and then repops full FFA are huge hits on Class C and big gains for R

until Class R can figure out how to make that 'less of a hit' on C, then they will never ever support it.

even if it would be a lot of fun.

Uhm no. Repops are on a bag limit it wouldn't be less for us. It would be less chances for you guys on FFA spawns. It means more for us 6 guaranteed C mobs a week outside of VP and our guaranteed 2 on repops. You guys seem to always want changes that limits yourselves more than improving the situation for everyone you represent.

[arsenalpow]

Uhm this isn't RNF Chest and Yes they will. Do the math honcho.

I can't believe you're baiting me into this...

let's assume 4 weeks in a month, no weird remainders, whatever, there's 12 raid mobs as currently called for by the raid.php page

9 of these mobs are a 7 day respawn, we'll assume we get about 4 a month before repops = 36 potential kills

2 of these mobs are a 3 day respawn, we'll assume we get about 10 a month before repops = 20 potential kills

draco is the odd duck, he's 3 days but he also spawns alongside CT, in a perfect world his windows would never overlap and you wouldn't lose any 3 day spawns so in magical christmas land you're looking at 10 dracos from his normal timer and 4 more spawning with CT = 14 potential kills

so before repops in magical christmas land month it's 70 potential kills in a month, then lets add in the potential extra mobs from 4 repops in a month, 36 more of the seven day guys, 8 of the normal 3 day guys, and 4 dracos, which brings our grand total of mobs in a month in magical christmasland to 118 potential raid targets (gonna lose some shit dividing, decimals are a bitch)

under the current scenario where mobs always hold their cycle
39 for class C
39 for class R
39 for FFA

under a c/r FFA on repops only scenario
35 for class C
35 for class R
47 for full repop FFA

BUT CHEST! LOOK AT THAT CLASS R GETS LESS!! MEW MEW MEW. Right now the amount of FFA kills that Class R is getting is something like 5%, maybe 10% in a good month (even with Taken coth ducking omg guyz) so between 2 and 4 mobs a month, so let's adjust that math assuming casual scum R got 4 FFA mobs this month from the non repop shit under the current circumstances

39 normal class C mobs, 16 bag limit repop kills, and 90% of the remaining FFA kills (19) and whatever left went to class R obv

74 mobs for class C
43 mobs for class R

Wow that's a lot of mobs currently for the two guilds in class c. What about the adjusted split if we were to be only C/R FFA on repops

35 for class C + 16 bag limit repop kills = 51 mobs for class C
35 for class R + whatever is left from FFA kills = 66 mobs for class C

oh the humanity!! class R getting more mobs than class C. Don't worry, I didn't even include all the VP kills you rack up every month (an additional 48 potential kills between normal spawns and repops)

So let's get the TLDR for everyone that didn't want to read this

************************************************** **********************
TLDR

Current system (including VP mobs, repops, and adjusted for how many FFA targets each side is taking down)
Class C - 122 potential kills
Class R - 43 potential kills


Proposed system of C/R FFA only on repops (including VP mobs, repops, and adjusted for how many FFA targets each side can take down)
Class C - 99 potential kills
Class R - 66 potential kills

[Uuruk]

You guys are so immersed in elf land. Imagine your potential if you applied yourself to real life. Especially chest.

[Swish]

"Play Red!"

http://i.imgur.com/bO5sziy.gif

[arsenalpow]

You guys are so immersed in elf land. Imagine your potential if you applied yourself to real life. Especially chest.

I do data analysis all day, it's my job to pencil whip stuff (in excel) when it comes to manpower, labor rates, unit funded costs, performance metrics, blah blah no one cares

[Lazie]

I can't believe you're baiting me into this...

let's assume 4 weeks in a month, no weird remainders, whatever, there's 12 raid mobs as currently called for by the raid.php page

9 of these mobs are a 7 day respawn, we'll assume we get about 4 a month before repops = 36 potential kills

2 of these mobs are a 3 day respawn, we'll assume we get about 10 a month before repops = 20 potential kills

draco is the odd duck, he's 3 days but he also spawns alongside CT, in a perfect world his windows would never overlap and you wouldn't lose any 3 day spawns so in magical christmas land you're looking at 10 dracos from his normal timer and 4 more spawning with CT = 14 potential kills

so before repops in magical christmas land month it's 70 potential kills in a month, then lets add in the potential extra mobs from 4 repops in a month, 36 more of the seven day guys, 8 of the normal 3 day guys, and 4 dracos, which brings our grand total of mobs in a month in magical christmasland to 118 potential raid targets (gonna lose some shit dividing, decimals are a bitch)

under the current scenario where mobs always hold their cycle
39 for class C
39 for class R
39 for FFA

under a c/r FFA on repops only scenario
35 for class C
35 for class R
47 for full repop FFA

BUT CHEST! LOOK AT THAT CLASS R GETS LESS!! MEW MEW MEW. Right now the amount of FFA kills that Class R is getting is something like 5%, maybe 10% in a good month (even with Taken coth ducking omg guyz) so between 2 and 4 mobs a month, so let's adjust that math assuming casual scum R got 4 FFA mobs this month from the non repop shit under the current circumstances

39 normal class C mobs, 16 bag limit repop kills, and 90% of the remaining FFA kills (19) and whatever left went to class R obv

74 mobs for class C
43 mobs for class R

Wow that's a lot of mobs currently for the two guilds in class c. What about the adjusted split if we were to be only C/R FFA on repops

35 for class C + 16 bag limit repop kills = 51 mobs for class C
35 for class R + whatever is left from FFA kills = 66 mobs for class C

oh the humanity!! class R getting more mobs than class C. Don't worry, I didn't even include all the VP kills you rack up every month (an additional 48 potential kills between normal spawns and repops)

So let's get the TLDR for everyone that didn't want to read this

************************************************** **********************
TLDR

Current system (including VP mobs, repops, and adjusted for how many FFA targets each side is taking down)
Class C - 122 potential kills
Class R - 43 potential kills


Proposed system of C/R FFA only on repops (including VP mobs, repops, and adjusted for how many FFA targets each side can take down)
Class C - 99 potential kills
Class R - 66 potential kills


False, those potential kills only rise for the larger guilds on repops. My point was the smaller guilds in your rotation lose out on rotation mobs. BDA, Taken etc. The guilds who can hit their bag limits on repops will only gain mobs. In essence you are asking for a change that does the exact opposite of what you preach. Open up content to smaller guilds.

I give you credit in the current environment your rotation does that well. So don't think I look ill on you in that regard. I just don't see the benefit of the change for those smaller guilds. It only benefits larger guilds with the smaller guilds paying the price in your rotation with lesser class specific mobs to go around.

[Tann]

a simple solution:

Classic™
1. No rotation
2. No "Class C/R"
3. FFA (everything)

From the perspective of a former EQLive raider the sense of entitlement here is crazy, this isn't WoW, everyone shouldn't be handed BiS gear because they currently are a living organism. If you want big boy loot you need to be in a big boy guild, if that means joining TMO/IB to get all that your heart desires then do that, sock up, and prepare the hot pockets.

Make it Classic™

[arsenalpow]

oh.
my.
gawl.

Sql Server Analysis Services.

I can have you up and running with conversion to 80%+ analysis automation in 3-6 months (not counting data migration if required). How many man hours that saves you depends on how much time you spend creating new spreadsheets and maintaining existing ones.

wouldyouliketoknowmore.gif

that united states federal government doesn't like anything outside of microsoft office, they instead like to pay millions of dollars for giant fucking management programs that don't work for shit and are too complicated for the end user to manage so excel is what I work with and I've automated 90% of what I do

most of my time is spent just pulling the data in the first place or doing misc ad hoc stuff that my automation doesn't do for me

[arsenalpow]

a simple solution:

Classic™
1. No rotation
2. No "Class C/R"
3. FFA (everything)

From the perspective of a former EQLive raider the sense of entitlement here is crazy, this isn't WoW, everyone shouldn't be handed BiS gear because they currently are a living organism. If you want big boy loot you need to be in a big boy guild, if that means joining TMO/IB to get all that your heart desires then do that, sock up, and prepare the hot pockets.

Make it Classic™

sigh, Project1999 is not Classic™ because we've been in the same expansion for over 3 years now, non classic solutions must be employed to fix this non classic problem

[Clark]

Without reading this thread, I'm gonna make a few assumptions.

1 - Chest has made an appearance talking about championing a class R rotation, server hero status
2 - Someone has mentioned Taken and coth ducking at least twice, probably way more than that though.
3 - Clark has posted lots of pics that make absolutely no sense and add nothing to the discussion
4 - Nothing gets solved from this and this thread will easily reach 30 pages.

How'd I do?


http://i.imgur.com/STiTXID.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vtva28w.jpg

Look he has a bad leg like you Gimp! :(

[Clark]

I do data analysis all day, it's my job to pencil whip stuff (in excel) when it comes to manpower, labor rates, unit funded costs, performance metrics, blah blah no one cares

http://i.imgur.com/rhPRdvu.jpg

[iruinedyourday]

I believe I said it felt it benefited EVERYONE. Taken already hits our bag limit almost every single repop.

FFA bag limits seem to be the only time the casual raiding guilds have fun.. I... dont know if I've ever met anyone who has fun waiting for a 16hr window merb to pop at 4:56 am on a Monday morning heh but I suppose that there may be one or two people per guild that are into that. :P

I totally agree with cat on this issue, IMO as a working adult, even random FFA earthquakes can be hard because they may happen in the middle of the work day! the result is that some of us with kids and jobs cant schedule our lives around raids.. for some reason it seems like this server is against any semblance of trying to plan your life around this hobby.. so a bonus to ffa earthquakes is, you cant plan for it.. i guess...

the main thing is, damn they are the only time EVERYONE agree's that raiding is hella fun.. earthquake, everyone rallies, runs tries to get a good spot, wins, fails.. bag limit reached pick a merb, go to it.. shit is just crazy fun...

I just cant with all honestly believe that any other system except for ffa earthquake is the funnest. But then again, I don't like face tracking shit for 8+ hours so hey that's just me :D

aside from completely changing the rules to this system, i dont see any downside, could someone explane to me a downside? I dono! but I also dont do VP so i have NO IDEA how that raiding works, and maybe that suggestion totaly shits all over VP raiding? I dont know. Please enlighten me about what is your favorite part of the current system? and why changing raiding on p99 to be onlly simulated repop would be bad? I guess we assume that yall would just sit and sock for 7 days straight?

who am i kidding, would prob be as equal of a nightmare as any other system heh.. To that end, do you smart cats already know how you would totaly reck that system and get all the loots and force everyone out? idk.. bag limits tho would work against that.. I dono.. the system just seems like it would be better overall... But again, lots of pieces missing from my puzzle! :)

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Is that a CotH duck?

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Sugarsandrainbows/GIFs/e6u4ok.gif

[Clark]

Is that a CotH duck?

http://i.imgur.com/hyNjg0t.png
It is confirmed yes.

[nicemace]

its the environment that the guilds are in that makes them do the retarded shit. its going to keep happening until the staff realize that this is the result of their desire for competition. so break it up into people who want idiocy and people who just wanna kill dragons. C and R... who gives a fuck if R doesn't want to play like retards. let C do their thing and R do their thing.

C obviously enjoy succumbing to retardation and psudo-competition, let them do it, their way and they can manage themselves. R will work with each other and keep shit civil.

repops full FFA no bag limits no retarded engage rules or anything. FTE and go. no restrictions on what can take repops from which zone (read: R can get VP on repops if they wish)

honestly its such a simple solution to the whole drama yet the staff want to try create this utopia competition that just is not possible.

[Archalen]

ty for breaking down my post Lazie

I get it tho, you guys really want to race. Acting like a race will suddenly give 'the little guys' a huge chance versus what we have now is handful of magic beans you are selling.



Would you like a handful of Class R's Miracle Legumes?

http://i.imgur.com/Ot4BmF4.png

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/1gzf3Mb.jpg

[Tann]

http://i62.tinypic.com/15mcymp.jpg

[Clark]

That said, this thread is now about beans.

http://i.imgur.com/NDceinf.png

http://i.imgur.com/0uCtyuP.jpg

[Archalen]

lol

[Jarnauga]

This is getting ridiculous..

Seriously, i bet you a new class R is gonna appear soon and is not gonna respect any rotation at all.

Good luck fighting coth-ducking on R spawns when that happens.

[Lazie]

So I did a bit of research Chest. These are just mobs from 8/31 to now in your's and Taken's guild threads.

Inny and draco down in full on race mode. Grats Navir on a BCG, couldn't have happened to a less deserving person.

How about that FFA Maestro!

An FFA VS+Gore, you say? Gotdamn, BDA.

FFA draco and CT down. Grats me on an AoN because I'm a tyrant (jk high roll)

Repop action leaves draco and Talendor deaded. Grats Cucs on his shiny new bracer and other people on loot that I don't remember.

9 mobs in under 2 months for BDA...HM. This isn't counting 1 Draco Class C slept on. Let's see Taken now.

Nagafen and Faydedar (water dragon shield) down to Taken on the repop. Yael for desert (had two robes)
Naggy here was FFA.

FFA VS, nobles, and some vending machine class R targets. Another successful weekend Taken!

Apply now:
www.takenguild.com

FFA Nagafen, Talendor, and Severilous so far for Taken in the last 24 hours. And the night is still young :D

A 3 pack!


[Sun Aug 31 03:59:22 2014] Cleratani tells the guild, 'VS'
[Sun Aug 31 03:59:25 2014] Venril Sathir engages Gorruk!

.

6 more FFA targets for a Grand total of 15 in 2 months there. These are just the ones listed in the guild threads of the 2 guilds. You guys are averaging almost 8 a month. I know Omni killed a FFA Maestro recently and a few other guilds have taken down FFA spawns recently as well. It seems to me you skewed your stats a bit.

[Raev]

who cares about whether class R gets 5 or 10% more or fewer targets or whatever. The point is to make the game FUN.

[iruinedyourday]

who cares about whether class R gets 5 or 10% more or fewer targets or whatever. The point is to make the game FUN.

sounds like fun if ur in taken :/

[bcdi]

...poop mountain

http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF145-Nunez.jpg

[ctre]

Well there is a couple of major problems and some proposed fixes from myself.

1st major problem.
-GM's Are Slaves to the FFA and allocated Lawyering bitch-fest for all boss mobs.
They obviously hate it and are not in favor of anything that involves them.
We all know they rather talk to little johnny about getting that virtual cat out of the tree.

2nd Major problem
-Rules Rules Rules We, (the raiding players) and GM's all carry grand library volumes of RULES.. FFS.. this is a game right?


Proposed Solution/points, (bits for the whole package).
1st point
Code the rules, (no GM's needed = happy GM's)
If you work out how many man hours of effort have been put into the bitch fests that have been serviced by GM's. A whole new EQ mud could have been written.

-suggested ideas for the code.
1: all boss mobs that are contested over before they spawn.
Sample the zone. (who)
2: an additional agro sample is taken, ( larger radius), EG: trakanon's sample takes the whole room area, (apply the check for guild tags, and non guild tags).
Apply rules decided on and DC the players that fail the rules, (remember them for 1 hour).
3: Boss mob spawns.. ( say an FFA one )
Ensure FFA mobs have a different colour name tag
a player engages *(Apply check for the player (guild tag.. non tag), *(apply room area check (( is there enough guild players in my room area check?))
apply rules against that player and guild tag.. if not DC the player'(s) in the list .. and announce banished .. blaa blaa..
# say a 2nd raid force is in / outside the room waiting for a chance..
they all file in and engage. checks as above... and pass.. raid mob does the usual announce. .. fights and dies horribly..



2nd Point
Change all allocated mobs to be 24 hours before it goes FFA.
Ensure FFA mobs have a different colour name tag


This will solve the bitching to the gm's as they will say "GAF", ("give a FFF" it is programmed and I don't care.. now where is little johnny and his virtual cat) so play and put up with it..

[Barthorn]

that's why i don't raid here poop socking not fun guys

[Niedar]

that's why i don't raid here poop socking not fun guys

i know, play red instead

[-Catherin-]

So I did a bit of research Chest. These are just mobs from 8/31 to now in your's and Taken's guild threads.

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

[iruinedyourday]

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-27633-Troy-Abed-good-point-Community-8k1e.gif

[Lazie]

interesting.

so the R guilds that are doing so well in the current FFA arena are proposing to get rid of the current FFA arena, and instead go to full FFA on simulated repops only. who did you say we were trying to benefit again? Because that doesn't look like it would only be for our benefits alone.

Yourselves. Because you want more access to certain mobs. Erati said it best when he explained his stance about going for more VS's on repops. I think it's crystal clear the guilds at the top of Class R want the change because they know it benefits them. Even though it proverbially takes the food out of smaller guilds mouths. I'm glad he opened up so well in this thread when he was explaining his stance. I'm glad Chest backed up my numbers that shows it takes mobs directly from your rotation and adds it to the pockets of the larger guilds on repops. Everyone sees a little clearer now I think.

[Lazie]

totally missing my point.

VS is sometimes C on a repop.

VS is sometimes R on a repop.

VS is sometimes FFA on a repop.

A small class R guild can only go for VS on a repop when the repop happens while VS belongs to Class R AND they are up for it on rotation.

If VS was FFA every single repop, you bet your bottom dollar small guilds would pony up and figure something out considering he is a 'legal' target ever single repop where otherwise they have to wait like 5 months to see him.

This is why you ( Class C) are fighting tooth and nail for this ground swell of support to die down. It has no benefit for Class C guilds that already are enjoying a C/C/R system

thank you for making my point stronger.

If repops happened on schedule and as promised then MAYBE class R would consider C/C/R with FFA repops ( but VP included ) but that wont happen either it seems

We can go back to this now as well since I have proven BDA and Taken get quite a bit of the FFA spawns and show the false rhetoric they were using to garner support.

BTW to the Smaller guilds out there. The changes you should seek are exactly what I proposed in this thread. Lower variance with foot races restricted to 2 people at the starting line. Designated starting areas. The proposals these guys are trying to make on your behalf benefits you not one bit. At least in that system there is changes that can benefit you on FFA spawns with less resources. The changes these guys are pushing for honestly means you have to be ready at all hours for a repop just to get an extra mob off of the rotation they setup. On top of that the changes reduces the mobs that go to Class R...Hence it reduces the mobs that go to the rotation.

[fadetree]

Holy crap, you guys are nuts. How can you keep discussing the same unsolveable shit over and over? Reminds me of Congress. Keep calm and post on, though.

[Ella`Ella]

C/C/R would solve this. If the real problem here is overlap, I don't see why Class-R would be unhappy about this.

[Daldaen]

Yourselves. Because you want more access to certain mobs. Erati said it best when he explained his stance about going for more VS's on repops. I think it's crystal clear the guilds at the top of Class R want the change because they know it benefits them. Even though it proverbially takes the food out of smaller guilds mouths. I'm glad he opened up so well in this thread when he was explaining his stance. I'm glad Chest backed up my numbers that shows it takes mobs directly from your rotation and adds it to the pockets of the larger guilds on repops. Everyone sees a little clearer now I think.

Class R mobs occur every 3 weeks. Or 17-18 spawns a year are Class R. With 2 repops a month, or 24 respawns a year, a third of Those respawns are Class R, so 8. Expect 25-26 Class R spawns a year per mob with 7 day respawn.

Class R mobs occur every 2 weeks. (Assuming C/R rotation). Or 26 spawns a year.

The Class R spawn number stays the same. Except with full FFA respawn, sure, Taken, BDA and Divinity may get 3 big targets. But other Class R guilds still can get big targets or the mid tier ones.

On a respawn, those bigger Class R guilds would target fire down CT/Inny/VS/Trak. Likely only getting 3/4. If two guilds have the same goal (say both go for VS), they will run into each other, one will win and the other will have to regroup and move elsewhere quickly. Which may mean 2 big targets are up for grabs to the medium sized Class R guilds.

In this time there's still going to be atleast 1 big target left up, plus the mid-tier ones like Sev (dem lightsabers)/Naggy/Vox/Gore/Tal. All of which Class R guilds have a decent shot at getting in the 5-10 min Class C is herpderp training and bladestoppering to get your Phara Dar. If you see VS is down you may stay in VP to get Druushk or Nexona. Giving the less hardcore Class R guilds more time to get a clean Sev/Naggy/etc.

The present system this is what happens a respawn:

4 mobs go to Class R, 4 mobs go to FFA, 4 mobs go to Class C.

The Class R mobs get cleared to and killed cleanly.
The FFA mobs generally speaking go to BDA, Taken and Divinity. If they don't all it's usually like an FFA Maestro or Draco that gets left for the smaller Class R guilds. I think the last FFA Trak went to whoever had Class R Trak on rotation since they were still set up for it with CotHing and such (correct me if I'm wrong)
The Class C vending machine mobs sit up while you train each other in VP. When you're done you decide which ones if any are worth competing for given you haven't bagged out yet.

But let's call a spade a spade. Everyone has their own self interest.

Class C hates these suggestions because it will likely lose them loot, they no longer have 3-4 guaranteed mobs waiting for them outside of VP when they finish.
Big Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means that every repop there are several valueable targets to race for, as opposed to the *maybe* 1 with the current situation.
Small Class R guilds like these suggestions because it means there is likely 1-2 high value targets and lots of medium value targets available for them to race for. Their vending machine kills stays the status quo as I showed above.

The way I think it could be sold to Class C is that Respawns don't have bag limits. So that even though you may be going from 2/3 weeks to 1/2 weeks having a mob, you now have the potential to get a huge kill list on a respawn, plus you never have to CotH duck again since the FFA competition will be respawns and your Class C competition already works so harmoniously.

If we (as the bigger Class R guilds) were entirely focused on pixel intake we would be in Class C or we could trash the rotation and take every third spawn in Class R. But we don't. We stay in Class R and Rotation because that's what we prefer.

[Visual]

butterflies

[Erati]

solid write-up Dald

and I agree, the bag limit thing is something Class R could compromise to help Class C benefit more from a rule set like this

I dont think unlimited bag limit is the way to go, but 4 mob limit ( doubling the current ) would be something I think R could get behind

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/6oICC3a.jpg

But, but, I thought class R is supposed to get all the mobs? Isn't this CustomEZP99.

You guys are the biggest bunch the crybabies. Then you get Taken in here coth duck socking 40+ strong and saying they aren't prepared for Class C. What a joke and a half.

[Fanguru]

Yourselves. Because you want more access to certain mobs. Erati said it best when he explained his stance about going for more VS's on repops. I think it's crystal clear the guilds at the top of Class R want the change because they know it benefits them. Even though it proverbially takes the food out of smaller guilds mouths. I'm glad he opened up so well in this thread when he was explaining his stance. I'm glad Chest backed up my numbers that shows it takes mobs directly from your rotation and adds it to the pockets of the larger guilds on repops. Everyone sees a little clearer now I think.

I believe your logic is flawed and clearly, we disagree on that topic.

However, I wonder: can't these "smaller guilds" defend themselves?
I'm confused, why are you championning them? They are smart enough to make their own opinion.
If small Class R guilds have a problem with C/R + FFA on repop, shouldn't they be the ones argueing that point? I have yet to see that.

[Daldaen]

But... Baby steps.

I can get behind 2 in zone to tag, foot racers. No CotH.

Though I do think requiring new people to know the designated start point to tag in every zone is a bit much. Just make them logical points. Does Class C have points for all this stuff since you don't CotH?

Gore = KC Ent (on the brick/stone platform)
Sev = FoB zone line (what's a geographical object that can be used as a milestone so people don't creep up)
Tal = On OT ramp
Faydedar = On Ogre island land (or you can do on Chessboard if you want to get closer so that that pull isn't 20 minutes)
VS = DL Ent (behind bridge)
Nagafen = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see a kobold)
Vox = Entrance (not past first turn... IE you shouldn't see the ramp)
CT/Inny/Maestro/Draco = Not in zone
Trakanon = Not in zone... No preformed CotH groups. (The poopsocking on this must die, figure out ideas on how to get that to happen without people herpderp training all the way down to him...)

I think that's something most could agree to. Just need to clarify foot race. All classes/movement speeds allowed? Can druids/wizards evac themselves and/or taggers if the evac point is advantageous?

[Erati]

http://i.imgur.com/6oICC3a.jpg

But, but, I thought class R is supposed to get all the mobs? Isn't this CustomEZP99.

You guys are the biggest bunch the crybabies. Then you get Taken in here coth duck socking 40+ strong and saying they aren't prepared for Class C. What a joke and a half.

Do you ever add any constructive ideas? ;)

Who is exactly crying here? All we hear is TMO crying about COH ducking....

Class R is trying to seek out a change that is very popular with everyone except....

you guessed it.

[arsenalpow]

The bag limit is something I'm currently happy with and id like to see carried forward. Class C already circumvents the bag limit by having VP never count towards it. If VP continues to be a class C playground then that's the fair trade off. Either EVERYTHING is fair game in a FFA situation (I'm looking at you VP) and the bag limits are removed or inflated for class C or we keep the current bag limit system and carry it over for C/R FFA repops and class R still can't trespass on the holy land of VP.

[Daldaen]

http://i.imgur.com/6oICC3a.jpg

But, but, I thought class R is supposed to get all the mobs? Isn't this CustomEZP99.

You guys are the biggest bunch the crybabies. Then you get Taken in here coth duck socking 40+ strong and saying they aren't prepared for Class C. What a joke and a half.

We don't have enough Clarks in our guild. Players who can sit at a single camp for 2 months straight farming pixels :/.

But seriously. We tried for one FFA Trak, we don't have the depth of poopsocks you do to be competitive on it. Literally both TMO and IB have 2 mages on poop mountain with 2 more at zone in so that once it spawns you almost immediately have 4 CotHers on the mountain ready to get down the rest of your sockers.

If we cannot get Trakanon, we cannot get VP keys. If we cannot get VP keys the largest benefit to being in Class C is moot. We would get 2 Class C/FFAs on repops totalling 4 a month, far less than what we get in FFA and Class R currently. So it would yield less targets, alienate our more casual players, and burn out our more hardcore players. It's clearly a terrible choice currently.

Remove poopsocking, we may become competitive on more mobs like Trak that may end up pushing us into Class C... But right now we can only really sock VS and only during advantageous windows. Thus why you didn't see us at 4 AM for FFA VS.

Even then I think the VS socking done by us (and Class C) is retarded. Having 3 warriors and 2 clerics auto running into a wall for 16 hours is so dumb, and needs to be eradicated. Which is why I only pop in for 5 min at a time to rebuff. I just happened to be present for the last two when I was rebuffing on my cleric.

You want to see Taken in Class C, oblige Derubael, come up with some ways to get rid of poop socking and CotH FTEs, reduce variance so that windows are smaller and the time commitment to staring at a track box or camping out your main toon are limited and maybe after a few more months Taken may be ready to take that step.

By the way, my question was ignored. 4 AM VS, Class C was the only one there, did you CotH or did you foot race? Since clearly CotHing is a Taken invention and not something condoned by Class C unless absolutely necessary?

[Reguiy]

We don't have enough Clarks in our guild. Players who can sit at a single camp for 2 months straight farming pixels :/.

But seriously. We tried for one FFA Trak, we don't have the depth of poopsocks you do to be competitive on it. Literally both TMO and IB have 2 mages on poop mountain with 2 more at zone in so that once it spawns you almost immediately have 4 CotHers on the mountain ready to get down the rest of your sockers.

If we cannot get Trakanon, we cannot get VP keys. If we cannot get VP keys the largest benefit to being in Class C is moot. We would get 2 Class C/FFAs on repops totalling 4 a month, far less than what we get in FFA and Class R currently. So it would yield less targets, alienate our more casual players, and burn out our more hardcore players. It's clearly a terrible choice currently.

Remove poopsocking, we may become competitive on more mobs like Trak that may end up pushing us into Class C... But right now we can only really sock VS and only during advantageous windows. Thus why you didn't see us at 4 AM for FFA VS.

Even then I think the VS socking done by us (and Class C) is retarded. Having 3 warriors and 2 clerics auto running into a wall for 16 hours is so dumb, and needs to be eradicated. Which is why I only pop in for 5 min at a time to rebuff. I just happened to be present for the last two when I was rebuffing on my cleric.

You want to see Taken in Class C, oblige Derubael, come up with some ways to get rid of poop socking and CotH FTEs, reduce variance so that windows are smaller and the time commitment to staring at a track box or camping out your main toon are limited and maybe after a few more months Taken may be ready to take that step.

By the way, my question was ignored. 4 AM VS, Class C was the only one there, did you CotH or did you foot race? Since clearly CotHing is a Taken invention and not something condoned by Class C unless absolutely necessary?

Quit making sense. Also, can you explain why someone would auto run for the whole window?

[Daldaen]

Quit making sense. Also, can you explain why someone would auto run for the whole window?

To quite literally hit the ground running.

They coordinate with the Mage so that they are facing the direction that will, once CotH'd, put them running directly into/near the mob in question so that they can FTE.

In VS the mage faces VS room and warrior runs into a wall so that once summoned they run into his room without having to start moving or turn after he disorientation of being summoned across the zone.

[Daldaen]

Kunark is Full, if there are 600 people lv 50+ there are ONLY so many mobs to go around.

Don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on this.

Someone is always going to be unhappy with the situation. The original intent of this thread was to make sure that the unhappy ones weren't Derubael and company.

He asked us to stop socking. So let's agree to stop that. I see three options for this.

1. Allow only 2 in zone to foot race or 2 foot racers and a tracker. Maintain C/R/FFA. -- Removes socking but adds further rules that limit who can exp where, and more petition quest on whether that person was really in designated start line or not.
2. C/R rotation with FFA respawn -- removes CotH socking since Class C has agreed to no CotH. FFA respawn means Class R guilds can partake more in respawns and it will spread out more (at the cost of Class C losing some targets, unless they decide to agree to not VP until they both bag limit or slake their open world dragon lust)
3. Removal of all respawns, replace with simulated respawns which function like windows currently but spawns everything simultaneously randomly so that no point to track or sock. Simulation server repops would still occur randomly on top of these at completelt random times. Whereas the simulated respawns would just be like windows that spawn everything simultaneously. Agree to not poopsock your #1 target during this window too.

He indicated variance is more likely to increase and become even more neckbeardy and alienate casuals from raiding by putting in a larger more tedious window. Let's show him that we can come to an agreement that is agreeable to all Classes, that would warrant a reduction of variance by the removal of poopsocking on this server. So that if you want to attend all the respawns and you don't have to spend 3 days making yourself available. You can spend an afternoon or evening with smaller windows.

[maestrom]

Non-raider here just watching the drama.

What is CoTH ducking?

[Clark]

We don't have enough Clarks in our guild. Players who can sit at a single camp for 2 months straight farming pixels :/.

But seriously. We tried for one FFA Trak, we don't have the depth of poopsocks you do to be competitive on it. Literally both TMO and IB have 2 mages on poop mountain with 2 more at zone in so that once it spawns you almost immediately have 4 CotHers on the mountain ready to get down the rest of your sockers.

If we cannot get Trakanon, we cannot get VP keys. If we cannot get VP keys the largest benefit to being in Class C is moot. We would get 2 Class C/FFAs on repops totalling 4 a month, far less than what we get in FFA and Class R currently. So it would yield less targets, alienate our more casual players, and burn out our more hardcore players. It's clearly a terrible choice currently.

Remove poopsocking, we may become competitive on more mobs like Trak that may end up pushing us into Class C... But right now we can only really sock VS and only during advantageous windows. Thus why you didn't see us at 4 AM for FFA VS.

Even then I think the VS socking done by us (and Class C) is retarded. Having 3 warriors and 2 clerics auto running into a wall for 16 hours is so dumb, and needs to be eradicated. Which is why I only pop in for 5 min at a time to rebuff. I just happened to be present for the last two when I was rebuffing on my cleric.

You want to see Taken in Class C, oblige Derubael, come up with some ways to get rid of poop socking and CotH FTEs, reduce variance so that windows are smaller and the time commitment to staring at a track box or camping out your main toon are limited and maybe after a few more months Taken may be ready to take that step.

By the way, my question was ignored. 4 AM VS, Class C was the only one there, did you CotH or did you foot race? Since clearly CotHing is a Taken invention and not something condoned by Class C unless absolutely necessary?

Good post. The problem is what someone mentioned earlier in this thread or another one recently. If you guys can spend time on your 6th or 7th alt same as us, or hardcore farm which you can't say Taken doesn't do, then you surely have time to guild PL some mages. Excuses man, but not a bad post.

For God sake, I mean BDA has been on the server longer than most guilds. They should have guild mages by now as well.

As far as Trakanon goes I preferred logging in at Ledge and not making it a COTH war. Was much more enjoyable.

[thieros]

Non-raider here just watching the drama.

What is CoTH ducking?

when a raid mob is in window, use a mage to face track the mob while other guildies (probably a warrior or bard) are in your group sitting an acceptable sockline (probably autorunning into the corner so you can afk fte). perpetually cast CoTH and duck it at the last second for the entirety of the window. recast and repeat. When the mob spawns, dont duck coth. instead it lands and boom you have an FTE non tracker warrior able to stall/pull within seconds (if that) of the mob spawning

[maestrom]

That's what I imagined. Intense.

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/STiTXID.jpg

[Erati]

Good post. The problem is what someone mentioned earlier in this thread or another one recently. If you guys can spend time on your 6th or 7th alt same as us, or hardcore farm which you can't say Taken doesn't do, then you surely have time to guild PL some mages. Excuses man, but not a bad post.

For God sake, I mean BDA has been on the server longer than most guilds. They should have guild mages by now as well.

As far as Trakanon goes I preferred logging in at Ledge and not making it a COTH war. Was much more enjoyable.


Taken has guild mages, we did exactly as you suggested when the rules changed.

The problem is, this creates a barrier of entry for all the other guilds, namely, it requires THEM to all plvl a mage which is kinda dumb to have these imaginary barriers which are player created.

Many of your TMO bros are actually frowning at us when it is suggested that other guilds follow suit and Plvl a mage to join in the 'level playing field'.

Hence why racing is what being discussed, so you are not 'required' to plvl a mage to simply join in the FFA raid scene. ( granted racing has its own issues, but it does not require extra effort in terms of lvling and creating a 'raid mule character')

[Daldaen]

Good post. The problem is what someone mentioned earlier in this thread or another one recently. If you guys can spend time on your 6th or 7th alt same as us, or hardcore farm which you can't say Taken doesn't do, then you surely have time to guild PL some mages. Excuses man, but not a bad post.

For God sake, I mean BDA has been on the server longer than most guilds. They should have guild mages by now as well.

As far as Trakanon goes I preferred logging in at Ledge and not making it a COTH war. Was much more enjoyable.

Refer to RNF the last guild mage we PL'd :P.

We have 2 guild mages. One of whom is level 55.

We would need:

2 new guild Mages, 1 Mage PLed from mid 40s-55.

Then we would need a solid 6-12 people willing to sock the entire 18 hour window and another 15-30 camped out to respond to a batphone.

Which reverts to the whole point, and quite literally, the name of the post... Stop the Socking.

To compete on such an FFA mob, having Mages is fine and I grant you that. But having to sock with 1-2 full groups sitting at the entrance the entire window... No. Stop. Don't do that. That's bad and you promised the GMs you wouldn't.

Logging in at the ledge is sort of meh. That just becomes a sock at the character select screen. Somewhat of an improvement. Really should just see how no Mage CotH goes for a week or two on Traks... Would be quite entertaining. Most of the trains would occur in the basement where exp groups rarely set up so it shouldn't be too bad for the regular Seb exper.

[Man0warr]

BDA has mage mules for the normal stuff, but no one is going to force someone in our guild to coth duck for hours.

[Clark]

Ya. I mean personally I feel like there should be zero rules/all ffa with big variance. Then if you really want one target bad you can go sock it. The only thing that really ever got a little out of control was VS.

Almost feel worse for the red players having to put up with bull shit PNP. Was glad to see Sirkens recent post for them about cutting back on PNP, and if you afk you get what comes to you.

Rule99 needs to become P99 again.

[Erati]

Then if you really want one target bad you can go sock it. .

this surprises no one coming from you

and I say this kindly :)

[Daldaen]

Ya. I mean personally I feel like there should be zero rules/all ffa with big variance. Then if you really want one target bad you can go sock it. The only thing that really ever got a little out of control was VS.

Almost feel worse for the red players having to put up with bull shit PNP. Was glad to see Sirkens recent post for them about cutting back on PNP, and if you afk you get what comes to you.

Rule99 needs to become P99 again.

Of course you would feel this way. You are one of the extremely small fraction on this server that can attend and sock at any hour for any duration.

Complete hands off FFA no rules is what got us to where we are. Which is a vast improvement but it can be improved further. And it needs to be as our socking is starting to creep back towards what it was. That needs to be removed.

[Clark]

Kind of confused why Taken never sits back and analyzes their own actions. You guys are one of the reasons things get taken to extreme limits as far as socking goes. Pretty sure that Inny being socked months straight by you guys was a big reason for rule changes. Preposterous.

http://i.imgur.com/W0NKWE4.jpg

[Erati]

Soon as the staff found out Taken got 6 Inny's in a row (with zero mage staffs ) the Rogean-signal was sent so rules could be changed to never let that happen again.

and Norrath is a better place because of it. Thanks Taken!