Thoughts on movement from Class C to Class R

[Phats]

no class c kills for 1 month, inside and outside VP
simple enough, no bullshit popularity votes, no potential bias

This may be simple but can be abused. If I was a Class R guild who just completed my rotations on the mobs I deemed important and/or saw that I was near the bottom of the rotation lists(10 guild rotation is one mob every 30 spawns, most mobs spawn maximum 6-8 times per month, so on a good day its a specific mob every 3-4 months), I would just wait for a choice repop when Class C mobs included something I wanted outside of VP and just go kill it. Then for the next 30 days I would go after FFA mobs during normal respawns (ie Taken) or if my guild never did FFA mobs (ie BDA) I would just relax and get reinstated to Class R in 30 days.

If I was in Class R and saw a guild wanted to rejoin Class R, at a minimum I would make the guild being reinstated wait an additional 30 days upon acceptance back to Class R before I put them back at the bottom of every rotation list. But that is a Class R concern, as Class R is their own entity and the rotation rules they use are decided by the Class R guilds in a private setting. I do not see any further point in discussing what Class R may or may not to do to guilds who request to rejoin Class R rotations. (A big guild could easily decide to hold the rotation hostage with a demand to get back in the rotation with choice spots or just compete on Class R mobs at their leisure only abiding by the server lock out rule.)

I would propose:
If a guild enters Class C, I would make them stay in Class C for 60 days minimum. If after 60 days the guild deems Class C is not for them they may elect to go back to Class R after a 30 day cool off period. During the cool off period the guild may only compete on FFA mobs.

Thus the exposure for the guild to be locked out of Class R is a minimum of 90 days.

[falkun]

So you want to increase the punishment to go back down to Class R to encourage R guilds to step up to C?

The "new-C" guild would already have virtually zero kills for 30 days (maybe sniping some FFAs, but no C's nor R's (by definition)). Also, assuming the "C-turned-R" guild joins the R rotations at the bottom of the list, its another 3-4 months (according to your math) before they'd get a specific mob again, on top of not getting it during the 30-day no-C period, so 4-5 months without a specific target unless they get it FFA-style.

I agree that guilds going to R should (re-)join at the bottom of the R-rotation lists, but that's a class R internal issue.

This may be simple but can be abused.
Let's break down how it cannot...
If I was a Class R guild who just completed my rotations on the mobs I deemed important and/or saw that I was near the bottom of the rotation lists(10 guild rotation is one mob every 30 spawns, most mobs spawn maximum 6-8 times per month, so on a good day its a specific mob every 3-4 months), I would just wait for a choice repop when Class C mobs included something I wanted outside of VP and just go kill it.
First, you have to win the Class-C race for that mob, attempting a C-mob does not move you to C, killing it does, per the raid page:
Successfully killing a mob spawned under Class C advances that guild to Class C automatically.
So lets say you "try harder" and out-C the current C guilds...
Then for the next 30 days I would go after FFA mobs during normal respawns (ie Taken) or if my guild never did FFA mobs (ie BDA) I would just relax and get reinstated to Class R in 30 days.
Now you are (re-)joining the R rotation, you are at the bottom of the list (everyone joins the rotations at the bottom). So while you could be 1 month into your wait for ALL mobs (so 2-3 months from all mobs) if you stayed in R, you are 3-4 months from ALL mobs so that you could kill ONE class-C mob. This is a net-negative in loot per time, without imposing extra restrictions. If you are trying to get R to move to C, don't impose additional penalties.

[Phats]

Killing a non vp Class C only mob on repop is very easy if its the first target you go after.

You may result in net negative on the mobs you do not deem important, but timed properly you would have a net positive on the mobs you wanted.

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/NRIPjyc.gif

[Joyelle]

If the penalties for moving back down to Class R are that harsh, I honestly don't see any guild trying the move to C anytime soon.

[falkun]

And then, assuming you want to move back to R, you cannot kill any C nor R mobs for 30 days, putting you 4-5 months from ALL of your next R mobs to get a SINGLE C mob, instead of just waiting another 3-4 months for ALL of your R mobs again. Why would a guild (especially the R's, who are still gearing mains) trade a single mob "on-demand" for an extra month to get 12? And that's only when the stars align and they move C when:
1) they are at the bottom of the lists for all rotation mobs
2) The mob they want is C
3) Its a repop and not a normal spawn C

If the guild is nearly up for other R targets, then they'd be waiting even LONGER than 3-4 months because now you include the time they've already been waiting for their turn to come around again (ie: they are 2 months into CT they get every 3-4 months, now it'll be 6-7 months between CTs unless CT is the specific C-mob they killed to enter C).

Getting into C isn't the issue, its the additional penalty you are trying to tack on to leave C, which has always been the issue.

[Daldaen]

Hell I think Class C taking 1 month to leave is pretty extensive.

After 2-3 respawns you will easily see if your socks have equivalent death and your neckbeards equivalent length.

Presently no Class R guild comes close to them. Taken is the only one regularly contesting FFA spawns and that occurs on about 50% of FFA spawns, and only on specific mobs during specific favorable time windows. Weekends help for sure but even on weekends we aren't doing 4 AM spawns. Perhaps at the very end of a window if it didn't spawn and people are still up but.. That's about it.

[Phats]

The server has no rule regarding the class R rotation list. Your assumption of 4-5 months could be incorrect. Whose to say the guild rejoining Class R does not get back their old rotation spots?

[Daldaen]

The server has no rule regarding the class R rotation list. Your assumption of 4-5 months could be incorrect. Whose to say the guild rejoining Class R does not get back their old rotation spots?

Are you an officer in a Class R guild? Cause I'm pretty sure they are the only ones who have a full understanding of how the rotation works. The logical assumption would be new guilds go to the end. Even if you were formerly in the rotation.

Which makes your concern about exploiting it moot.

Chest, weigh in on your prized creation. What say yee about a guild coming back into R?

[Erati]

Getting back the rotation spots would be kinda unfair however I could easily see the guild trying to return to R being met with lots of venom and thusly at that point maybe saying ehhhh no rotation

this is tricky for sure, Guilds that choose to become C should be doing it because they actually want to be there n try it, not to snipe 1 extra VS/Trak or whatever then twiddle thumbs to scoot back into rotation

1 month cool down seems reasonable and can even put in something that disallows the same guild from engaging a C mob for additional 2 months after so they cannot repeat same process

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Phats kind of has a point. At 30 days, if you have enough vp keys it is worth attempting PD on every spawn. Do you go C if you engage a vp mob or if you kill it?

[falkun]

Do you go C if you engage a vp mob or if you kill it?
Aweful troll is aweful:
http://www.project1999.com/raid.php
Successfully killing a mob spawned under Class C advances that guild to Class C automatically.

[Swish]

The server has no rule regarding the class R rotation list. Your assumption of 4-5 months could be incorrect. Whose to say the guild rejoining Class R does not get back their old rotation spots?

Stirring up a shitstorm, 10/10 :)

[falkun]

I do like Erati's addendum:
1 month cool down seems reasonable and can even put in something that disallows the same guild from engaging a C mob for additional 2 months after so they cannot repeat same process
This addresses Heallun's issue:
Phats kind of has a point. At 30 days, if you have enough vp keys it is worth attempting PD on every spawn.
Then guilds can attempt PD until they finally get it, then when they drop back the C-guilds know they don't have to worry about that guild for 2 months (or 3 if the guild literally got the 1 kill and then stopped attempting C -trying- to get back to R).

And also specify one month = 30 days.

[Troubled]

lol

[arsenalpow]

I don't know how it would be dealt with because it's a new situation. We would probably need to call a meeting and figure it out. My best guess though is that we'd just keep the rotation the same and if that guild came up on the rotation and they were in class C they'd just get skipped for the time being.

It's cute that Phats is worried about how a class R guild could potentially game the system even though there's almost a year of history showing that the class R guilds are working in good faith. To be honest I don't think any guild will make the change in playstyle. Only Taken and BDA could even be considered a potential candidate and I don't speak for Taken but I'll tell you that BDA has no interest in altering our playstyle and/or spending significant time with IB or TMO.

[Bboboo]

http://i.imgur.com/NRIPjyc.gif

http://i.imgur.com/mT1iEGp.gif

If ya got photoshop I can show ya how.

[Swish]

"for Cats" !

Thanks Tree, I survive with the basics ;)

[falkun]

You removed the "Understanding" part...

[Bboboo]

Hah didn't see the other text.

http://i.imgur.com/9rXynm3.gif

[Phats]

I would propose:
they may elect to go back to Class R after a 30 day cool off period. During the cool off period the guild may only compete on FFA mobs.


1 month cool down seems reasonable and can even put in something that disallows the same guild from engaging a C mob for additional 2 months after so they cannot repeat same process

I do like Erati's addendum:


I think you meant to say you like Phat's proposal.

[arsenalpow]

Class R manages class R, your proposals are irrelevant.

[Phats]

It's cute that Phats is worried about how a class R guild could potentially game the system

Phats is only worried about where he will get his next meal.

I do not bring any animosity to this conversation. I was proposing a solution.

Please refrain from attacking me in Server Chat.

[Phats]

Class R manages class R, your proposals are irrelevant.

My proposal had nothing to do with Class R management. My proposal was made exactly because:Class R manages class R

[falkun]

I think you meant to say you like Phat's proposal.

You didn't bring up the one month...Chest did. Erati's idea puts some time between R guilds attempting to enter C after they leave C. Neither idea came from you.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Honestly, are any of the current R guilds planning to join C in the long term? Because otherwise it seems like we are just trying to make it sweet enough for an R guild to come play in C for a month and then go back.

[Funkutron5000]

I think it should be a sliding scale on moving from C->R. If you move up, decide it's not for you, I think it should start with 2 weeks before moving back to R. If you try again, it doubles to 4 weeks. Next time, 8 weeks, etc.

I think the "first" down shift should be a short period so guilds can attempt to move up, try it out, and see if they like it or not with minimal risk. This could also be scaled to how long you're in class C. If you move up, stay there for 6 months, and you're moderately successful then decide to move down, it should probably take a bit longer. Or, since IB and TMO have been class C for 10 months, if either decides it really wants to move down to R, it should obviously have a longer wait period.

Please note this is my own opinion and does not reflect the views or opinions of TMO as a whole.

[Daldaen]

Honestly, are any of the current R guilds planning to join C in the long term? Because otherwise it seems like we are just trying to make it sweet enough for an R guild to come play in C for a month and then go back.

I already explained a Taken members view on the jump from R->C in the stop socking thread.

Basically the main benefit to C is VP. We have 1 cleric who isn't active keyed. We aren't getting anything in there anytime soon.

If we wanted to press it we would have to key several clerics (and plenty of others... But we do have 4 or 5 level 60 epic druids... So we should be set!), of whom I don't think any are close to getting their 3 medallions nor do they want to buy their way into the MQs.

That being said its all moot without Trak Teeth. Which we can't compete on the FFA or Class C CotH fest. We have a guild mage and 1 main mage who play frequently. Not enough to contest Trak. Let alone the other 12~ sockers required at entrance and 20 camped. With Trak in its current Poopsock state, it's extremely unlikely we can compete. Unless we wanted to shit all over the rotation (which we don't) and steal rotation Traks (which we won't)

All that aside, the majority of our members prefer Class R. So the jump would push some away and that isn't something we are keen on.

The other guild with a reasonable argument is BDA. And they won't because Chest.

Tl;dr - no one has any plans in the near future unless there are changes to the current raid scene.

[Erati]

Regardless if any guild is planning on doing it anytime soon...

its really dumb to have created the two tiers with the intended goal being upward mobility and yet

have no system in place for any kind of downward mobility besides a "GM decision"


Less smoke and mirrors with raid policy rules pls.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Dald--so power level some mages? Can do 1 to 40 in a day and 40 to 60 in a week or so casually in chardok. Not sure how staff feels about guild accounts but they're absolutely vital to raiding. The bigger issue is having the will and the response time to compete on trak. Recently even we have been struggling with trakaman.

[Daldaen]

Dald--so power level some mages? Can do 1 to 40 in a day and 40 to 60 in a week or so casually in chardok. Not sure how staff feels about guild accounts but they're absolutely vital to raiding. The bigger issue is having the will and the response time to compete on trak. Recently even we have been struggling with trakaman.

And we have. But we would have to PL 2-3 more and then get people willing to sock him.

Which reverts to poopsocking is dumb. Taken isn't completely opposed as evidence by late window VS and the pre-raid rules Innys. But some are and I'm not sure we would have enough to regularly field a formidable sock.

The people you see on our Mages and FTEers are generally the same 15~ people I'd wager. Would need about that many to sock Trak.

Honest question - what is your typical sock set up for Trakanon? I don't care about group formation, Mages etc. As I'm sure those are sekret. But just a typical number of players socking, in zone and grouped up or ready to take CotH invites.

[Erati]

Dald--so power level some mages? Can do 1 to 40 in a day and 40 to 60 in a week or so casually in chardok. Not sure how staff feels about guild accounts but they're absolutely vital to raiding. The bigger issue is having the will and the response time to compete on trak. Recently even we have been struggling with trakaman.

how much plats for you to lvl us up a mage, you can even name him "Cothllun"

[Phats]

Honest question - what is your typical sock set up for Trakanon? I don't care about group formation, Mages etc. As I'm sure those are sekret. But just a typical number of players socking, in zone and grouped up or ready to take CotH invites.

We continue to compete on every Trakanon and have lost over 15 straight.

This past Tuesday we lost after stepping up our sock. I was on a mage and the guild leadership put a strong emphasis on Trak. This is what we had in zone right before Trakanon spawned. Trak spawned around 5:45 PM EST.

[Tue Oct 28 17:21:52 2014] Players on EverQuest:
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[Tue Oct 28 17:21:52 2014] There are 20 players in Old Sebilis.

In case you are wondering what we are up against.

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[Tue Oct 28 17:21:46 2014] There are 7 players in Old Sebilis.

Winning!