Dispelling

[Jygia]

On live dispelling was based strictly on the levels difference between the dispeller and the level of the caster of the spells on the target. The magic resistance of the target wouldn't affect the dispelling, you could easily dispel the golems in plane of hate for example.

Cancel Magic Detail | History | Raw Data
Slot Description
1: Cancel Magic (1)

Nullify Magic Detail | History | Raw Data

Slot Description
1: Cancel Magic (4)
2: Cancel Magic (4)

Recant Magic Detail | History | Raw Data

Slot Description
1: Cancel Magic (9)
2: Cancel Magic (9)
3: Cancel Magic (9)
4: Cancel Magic (9)

The numbers in parentheses refer to an added bonus to the caster of the dispelling: a lvl 12 enchanter casting cancel magic would be considered as lvl 13 and a lvl 55 enchanter casting recant magic would be considered as lvl 64.


http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm
Dispel
Taper Enchantment (1), Cancel Magic (8), Strip Enchantment (24), Nullify Magic (29), Pillage Enchantment (44)
As you can see, enchanters are the undisputed masters of dispelling; while most casters can the ability to dispel magical effects, the enchanter gains the ability to not only strip up to 4 and a time, but to cancel effects as though they were up to nine levels higher! The 1st and 8th level versions cancel one effect, the 29th cancels two effects at 4 levels higher than your level, the 29th cancels up to 4 effects, and the 44th Pillage Enchantment cancels up to 4 effects at 4 levels higher than normal. (At 53rd enchanters gain the ability to dispel as a 62nd level enchanter.)

http://www.everquest.3x.ro/view_spell.php?id=25
Pillage Enchantment
Cancel Magic + 4 levels
Cancel Magic + 4 levels
Cancel Magic + 4 levels
Cancel Magic + 4 levels

[Haynar]

Good theory. Similar to one of the theories I tried. But it did not work out.

Dispelling spells, working as intended.

Thanks,

H

[Daldaen]

Level theory is interesting. But it still had to come down to either counters or a dice roll.

I definitely remember getting dispelled and not losing any buffs.

I also recall certain things like Dragon AEs would remove stuff every time.

[Jygia]

It was a dice roll, either the spells would resist the dispelling or it wouldn't, once after being chased off on a pvp server from the raptors early in Kunark when they were indiferrent and wouldn't assist, i brought a lvl 1 character with bags full of pumices to harass the players who chased me off by dispelling the raptors they were killing and the dispels would never land.

[Droog007]

I also recall certain things like Dragon AEs would remove stuff every time.

Talendor AE currently "skipping" clicky buffs such as Grim Aura and Journeymanboots to overwrite a buff further down. This is not how I remember it - Dragon AE should nullify the topmost "magic based" effect and occupy the top empty slot immediately after (even if not the same slot).

[Nirgon]

Skipping grim aura on top might be happening because of a bug with buff slots.

I've zoned and my buffs all shuffled before.

I've also tried to dispel a top slot malosini with Annul Magic (always takes 2 from the top) and couldn't get it until I dispelled 8 other things lower in my list. Other times I've dispelled it as one of my top 2 with no issues.

Somethin fishy with buffs/debuffs shown in slots versus what slot they are actually in is what I think is going on.

[Daldaen]

Talendor AE currently "skipping" clicky buffs such as Grim Aura and Journeymanboots to overwrite a buff further down. This is not how I remember it - Dragon AE should nullify the topmost "magic based" effect and occupy the top empty slot immediately after (even if not the same slot).

Talendor's AE isn't a Dispell. Just a DoT...

[Byrjun]

So, dispelling is pretty buggy right now.

It was buggy before the last patch. Sometimes I'd have a dragon AE (like Talendor) in my first slot and cancel magic wouldn't touch it. Most of the times it'd work, but several times due to some bug I just couldn't dispel the raid AE. This is before the last patch that altered the dispel system, so there was already a bug in place.

The above bug seems to have just become worse since the recent patch. A lot more people just can't seem to dispel raid AEs, while others are able to dispel them off with one cast of cancel magic.

If the system was working correctly, shouldn't 1 type of dispel work for everyone for the same debuff/dot? On one raid encounter today I dispelled the AE first try with cancel magic while others had to use Nullify and others just couldn't dispel it at all. It's all over the place.

Seems like something needs to be fixed.

[Daldaen]

What do people not understand about random rolls?

Let's say everyone on your raid casts cancel magic either spell or clicky staff.

Let's have two groups of people.

Group 1 - Roll a maximum roll on Cancel, 4.
Group 2 - Roll a minimum roll on Cancel, 1.

Group 1:

Cleric - Immolating Breath (6)
Warrior - Immolating Breath (4)
Rogue - Immolating Breath (4)
Bard - Immolating Breath (3)
Shaman - Immolating Breath (2)
Druid - Immolating Breath (1)

In this group, since their cancel magics all rolled a 4, everyone would Dispell the DoT except the Cleric who would have 2 counters remaining.

Group 2:

Cleric - Immolating Breath (1)
Bard - Immolating Breath (8)
Monk1 - Immolating Breath (8)
Monk2 - Immolating Breath (8)
Rogue1 - Immolating Breath (8)
Rogue2 - Immolating Breath (8)

In this group because everyone rolled a 1 on their cancel magic, only the cleric would remove the DoT. Everyone else would have 7 counters remaining.

Do you understand why some people have it removing sometimes and some don't?

You could roll 1s every time and take 8 dispells to remove the DoT if you get extremely unlucky.

________________________________________

This notion that it becomes a matter of level differential is neat... But that's a chanter guide and an EQEmu spell database as info. Would like more info on this. Especially explaining how it decides when something does get removed. Is it a guaranteed chance to remove if the target (after level additions are calculated) is lower than you?

So cancel wouldn't remove any dragon AEs at all unless level 60. Am I reading this correctly Jygia?

Queen's AE in Chardok would require 59-60 and an Annul/Nullify? All VP AEs wouldn't be removable without Recant Magic (don't think there's anything there that you could Dispell other than silence maybe if someone casted on you though).

And basically every AE in Velious wouldn't be removable due to level difference.

[Daldaen]

EQClerics 1999 (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6070&highlight=Cancel+magic)

Yes, cancel magic will negate ghoul root, if you're lucky enough to not take down their bravery, sow, etc. first. I still don't quite understand how cancel magic figures out which effect it will cancel; I used to think it was the one at the top of the list, but now it seems to be somewhat random.

------------------
Portly -- Mithaniel Marr

EQClerics 2001 (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2133&highlight=Cancel+magic&page=3)

Regarding Dispel:

I often play 3 or 4 characters at once. The pact several weeks I have been playing Druid/Enc/Cle/War quite alot. When my enchanter was considerably lower than the rest of the group and the mobs we were fighting (I dragged him around for haste and clarity), his buffs would always be the first ones dispelled, regardless of where they were in the buff list. As the enchanter gained levels with respect to the mobs I was fighting, this behavior dimished, and now that he is 53, and higher level than the majority of the mobs I fight, I am back to pretty much having buffs dispelled in the order they appear.

As a side note, last night right after my chanter made level 53, a level 60 shaman gave him some buffs. Later, as I was getting ready to fight, I wanted to dispell all my buffs so that I could stack them in my preferred order (something I am quite anal about ), Pillage Enchantment removed all my self buffs on 1 or 2 casts, but it took 2 or 3 extra casts once everything else was gone to remove the level 60 buffs. We know that the level of the caster is recorded with the buffs (otherwise low levels could overwrite higher levels of the same spell), so it seems logical that these buffs get a saving throw between the level of the dispeller and the level of the original caster.

^. This tends to give credence to the fact that the buffs have counters and they are determined by level not by a random dice roll. This is something I could get behind.

Clickies are considered level 1s casting the spell. Then every 7-8 levels you increase a counter on yor buffs. IE levels 1-8 buffs are 1, 9-16 buffs are 2, etc.

[Droog007]

Talendor's AE isn't a Dispell. Just a DoT...

I guess you're right - but beneath my top 2 clickies I had long-duration junks (AC and CHA) that should have still been up when we engaged.

Talendor died ~40 minutes after I arrived at the camp (checked logs). Even if I got those buffs immediately, they are 90 and 81 minutes duration, respectively and WOULD have been up when I engaged.

The facts:
- Prior to engage, I had these 4 buffs at the top: 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3&4) shadow and overwhelming splendor (not sure which order).
- Just after the dragon died, I had 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3)immolating breath; 4) empty; 5-?)the rest of my raid buffs
- I was not "bufflocked" ... I had 10-12 buffs and no bard in my group.

Can anyone explain that?

edit: OK, come to think of it - we did have a couple adds with the dragon. I am PRETTY sure none of them were chromodracs - but even if I got hit with that AE as well, stuff's not adding up.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I know later expansions (Luclin, IIRC) had items with the Brilliance of Ro effect that raised your caster level by 20. This would also factor into making your spells harder to dispel, right?

Perhaps there's more commentary about dispel mechanics hidden in the discussions on Brilliance of Ro. I'll add any that I personally find.

[Erati]

I guess you're right - but beneath my top 2 clickies I had long-duration junks (AC and CHA) that should have still been up when we engaged.

Talendor died ~40 minutes after I arrived at the camp (checked logs). Even if I got those buffs immediately, they are 90 and 81 minutes duration, respectively and WOULD have been up when I engaged.

The facts:
- Prior to engage, I had these 4 buffs at the top: 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3&4) shadow and overwhelming splendor (not sure which order).
- Just after the dragon died, I had 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3)immolating breath; 4) empty; 5-?)the rest of my raid buffs
- I was not "bufflocked" ... I had 10-12 buffs and no bard in my group.

Can anyone explain that?

edit: OK, come to think of it - we did have a couple adds with the dragon. I am PRETTY sure none of them were chromodracs - but even if I got hit with that AE as well, stuff's not adding up.

its not that hard to fathom. Your top two junk buffs had higher buff counter rolls than the buffs at #3 and 4.

If you are MAX buffed (ie 15 buffs no room for more ), the dot will overwrite a buff and I guess the manner in which it overwrites is affected by the number of buff counters and goes from top to bottom line dispell ( speculating)

thats why Immo breath jumped to #3, and when you tried to dispell it, the dispell got rid of buff #4 because of the aforementioned high buff counter rolls for your first 2 junk slots

just speculating

[Daldaen]

The concensus on the Mac server regarding that focus, was that it was always broken from implementation.

I had the Aegis on my druid and the Scepter on my... Enchanter maybe? Maybe it was the Necro, I forget.

Never noticed any changed with it at all.

As for your case I suggest looking at logs of the encounter and you'll figure out why the Debuff was in slot 3.

Also why the hell did you have slots 1+2 filled with junk buffs on that fight? If you were intending to Dispell the AE you want those slots empty so it goes in the top?!?!?!?

[Haynar]

Level has so effect on dispell. It never did.

The issue is dispell was never fully understood. I took the info the soe devs provided and put together a few theories. Then I got on eqlive and started going through different buffs and dispelling them. Using spells with single and multiple spell effects. Counting how many dispells it takes each time. Doing different buffs 100-200 times each. For hours and hours.

Then I took the data I had to come up with how it really worked. I adjusted my hypothesis several times as I took data untill I was able to figure out the actual mechanics at play. It sucked. I spent many many hours figuring it out.

I provided a lot of my conclusions, to share my findings. Just so I could get the info out there. And so others might come up with other things to check. Like clickies, and how the could be different.

You can argue all you want. You can reference ancient posts where people guess how it works. I took a shit load of data to make one of the best efforts to date in reproducing this classic mechanic. Many thanks to all those that dug up info, that helped me get this working right.

For those that want to continue arguing that I got it wrong. STFU, delete all your chars, and go play somewhere else. Clearly I did not do this for the ungrateful bastards who have an over inflated sense of self entitlement.

Haynar'd

[Erati]

I think our dispell system is more classic than ever and I enjoy the fact that I use annul magic now instead of silly cancel magic

really appreciate the hours of testing / theory crafting that went into this change

I think if we could figure out the puzzle piece of what makes the randomness of the buff counter roll a larger amount of counters for high lvl buffs vs clickies then I think the dispell system will function perfectly classic as we can get

[Nirgon]

gr8 changes move to resolved

[Droog007]

its not that hard to fathom. Your top two junk buffs had higher buff counter rolls than the buffs at #3 and 4.

If you are MAX buffed (ie 15 buffs no room for more ), the dot will overwrite a buff and I guess the manner in which it overwrites is affected by the number of buff counters and goes from top to bottom line dispell ( speculating)

thats why Immo breath jumped to #3, and when you tried to dispell it, the dispell got rid of buff #4 because of the aforementioned high buff counter rolls for your first 2 junk slots

just speculating

As stated, I was not bufflocked.

Also why the hell did you have slots 1+2 filled with junk buffs on that fight? If you were intending to Dispell the AE you want those slots empty so it goes in the top?!?!?!?

You guys are assuming I knew what I was doing... never do that. I am sure about what I observed, however. I didn't try to dispel Talendor's AE until after the fight and I clicked off my clicky buffs (grim aura and jboots). The cleric in my group then dispelled it with a single cast of something (unimportant).

However incorrectly, I was thinking I'd get buffs knocked off the top and then refresh the clickies. What appears to have happened is that Talendor's AE stripped my #3 buff and then took its place. A subsequent AE stripped #4 buff and refreshed itself in slot #3 - all while Slots 1 & 2 were occupied by clicky buffs, which always did a great job of being sacrificial lambs in the past (even as far back as classic).

Anyway - this is tangential to the OP and should probably get its own thread if it can be observed again. Please don't discount my observations because my Talendor strat was bad - keep your eyes open next time you kill him.

Thanks!

[Raev]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=861

Lava Breath is Cancel Magic(9). So shouldn't that always strip the top buff?

[Daldaen]

Yes, dragon AEs are a max counter of 9 every time so they should strip top buff and stop regardless of whether it has max (8) counters or min (1).

But none of the Kunark Dragons have a Dispell except Faydedar.

[Byrjun]

None of this even touches on the bug that existed before the dispel changes, and still exists after the dispel changes.