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VincentVolaju
01-02-2015, 02:51 AM
Friend is coming to p99 to roll a cleric, I told her Id make something to duo level up with her. I was thinking maybe a Warrior. Any suggestions?

rubicaant
01-02-2015, 03:39 AM
Warrior is ok, easy to fill the other slots with classes and take on whatever, but for duo'ing purposes, my money is on enchanter.

mishurza
01-02-2015, 03:45 AM
CH+ charmed pet = win

Enchanter

teija
01-02-2015, 05:10 AM
enchanter hands down best duo for cleric

Jimjam
01-02-2015, 05:20 AM
Friend is coming to p99 to roll a cleric, I told her Id make something to duo level up with her. I was thinking maybe a Warrior. Any suggestions?

Enchanter. Have her roll a dark elf for snare necklace.

If you guys wanna form a group you just need to fill out with melees. Easy.

phoenix182
01-02-2015, 05:26 AM
I agree enchanter wins, but if you're looking for other options:

War is ok, though pretty limited roles and options. Ogre War and DE cleric pretty solid evil duo.
Pal is interesting on a thematic level because you two would destroy undead. Just stay in undead heavy zones and rape. Dwarf or HE for both. Nice starting together.
Bard actually works ok (weak tank can trade with cleric back and forth, some dps, mana regen, health regen, combat buffs, travel speed, etc).

Oh, and I have a lot of newbies laying around if you need a 3rd for anything.

Danth
01-02-2015, 10:32 AM
Since you're probably wanting to get your Cleric friend leveled up, I'd avoid any of the classes with major experience penalties (Paladin, Shadow Knight, Ranger, etc). With 800+ forum posts, I imagine you're already established here in terms of having some sort of higher-level main. As such, my own recommendations would be as follows:

A) If you want a tank type make a Warrior. With higher damage output and much lower experience requirements than a hybrid it'll allow the duo to level a lot more quickly than using either of the hybrid tanks, plus Warriors are usually more desired by higher-end guilds.

B) Monks are always useful, but with a moderate experience penalty (or major in the case of Iksar) the leveling rate ends up no better than the Warrior-based duo. Also, with Clerics usually being weak and the Monk having to fight unslowed monsters constantly, the monk weight limit becomes a liability for this duo. It'll work if you want a Monk, but with some annoyance factor.

C) Enchanter is the most effective duo with a Cleric at the high end. This is what you want if you plan to continue duo'ing even after you're finished leveling. Nothing else comes close. Right from the start both this duo and the Druid (see below) are useful if you want the Cleric to experience gameplay beyond acting like a portable heal-bot for a melee partner.

D) If you don't already have access to one, Druids are roughly as effective as Enchanters for leveling (albeit with significant restrictions on where they can charm) and are one of the most useful utility classes a person can have access to, especially if these alts don't make level 60. Even a mid 40's Druid alt offers significant utility.

E) Any of the solo-effective classes (Necromancer, Mage, Shaman, Bard, etc) can work decently, and in a duo the pet classes gain the advantage of not having to fuss with their pets to ensure full experience.

----------------------------------

My wife and I played a Paladin/Cleric duo for many years. It worked tolerably well for low-mid range leveling and served as a great basis to build groups off of. However, as a duo it runs out of gas past about level 50 or so and even before then there are more efficient options. I wouldn't suggest it except to folks who want to play those classes in the first place.

Danth

webrunner5
01-02-2015, 12:21 PM
Cleric Mage is not the worse combo you can think of. Clerics do have some pretty good CC. And a Mage pet kills faster than a Tank. :eek:

Vexenu
01-02-2015, 12:39 PM
Cleric Mage is not the worse combo you can think of. Clerics do have some pretty good CC. And a Mage pet kills faster than a Tank. :eek:

I really like this duo for its sheer simplicity. It's similar to the Enchanter/Cleric duo but requires a lot less skill/attention from the Mage player as compared with the Enchanter. Just get the Mage Fire and Earth pet focus items and go to town. Cleric just HP buffs the focused fire pet, heals as needed and mobs beat themselves to death on the pet's damage shield. It's some of the fastest and easiest XP I've ever gotten. Definitely not as powerful as the Enchanter/Cleric in the hands of skilled players but a really fun and chill duo to grind XP into the 50s very quickly. If you go this route I'd advise making the Cleric a High Elf for the extra CHA which will come in handy when Lull pulling, as you'll be relying on the Cleric to do CC and Lull is very useful for breaking camps of blue con XP mobs.

webrunner5
01-02-2015, 01:19 PM
I really like this duo for its sheer simplicity. It's similar to the Enchanter/Cleric duo but requires a lot less skill/attention from the Mage player as compared with the Enchanter. Just get the Mage Fire and Earth pet focus items and go to town. Cleric just HP buffs the focused fire pet, heals as needed and mobs beat themselves to death on the pet's damage shield. It's some of the fastest and easiest XP I've ever gotten. Definitely not as powerful as the Enchanter/Cleric in the hands of skilled players but a really fun and chill duo to grind XP into the 50s very quickly. If you go this route I'd advise making the Cleric a High Elf for the extra CHA which will come in handy when Lull pulling, as you'll be relying on the Cleric to do CC and Lull is very useful for breaking camps of blue con XP mobs.

You hit the nail right on the head. Playing a Enchanter with a charmed Pet is a pretty damn stressful several hours of playing compared like you say with the Mage. I highly recommend it. :) Mage pets do kill fast like I said before.

VincentVolaju
01-02-2015, 04:42 PM
Hey all thanks for the replies, I kind of figured Enchanter would be the best one all around however Ive got an Enchanter on Red and don't really have much desire to roll another one. The Mage sounded pretty nice and laid back, and I am actually considering that if I don't got a melee.

However like someone mentioned earlier, I am a bit established with $$$ on the server since I been here a while. Not super rich but Ive got a fungi, cof and random odds and ends, so I just figured it would make sense to make use out of those types of items, which is why I figured Warrior at first.

Main concern with the warrior though is there not being any snap aggro and tanking apparently is pretty difficult as a warrior because of it? I remember when grouping with warriors before, the rogue or someone would pull aggro and the warrior would just be yelling "stop attacking! give me a minute!!!" while praying to get a weapon proc lol. I suppose in a duo aggro wouldnt be much of an issue, however once we start grouping, wouldnt it be come a problem?

Also little side question, do warriors get much better in velious, or kind of stay the same?

Taminy
01-02-2015, 05:16 PM
Hey all thanks for the replies, I kind of figured Enchanter would be the best one all around however Ive got an Enchanter on Red and don't really have much desire to roll another one. The Mage sounded pretty nice and laid back, and I am actually considering that if I don't got a melee.

However like someone mentioned earlier, I am a bit established with $$$ on the server since I been here a while. Not super rich but Ive got a fungi, cof and random odds and ends, so I just figured it would make sense to make use out of those types of items, which is why I figured Warrior at first.

Main concern with the warrior though is there not being any snap aggro and tanking apparently is pretty difficult as a warrior because of it? I remember when grouping with warriors before, the rogue or someone would pull aggro and the warrior would just be yelling "stop attacking! give me a minute!!!" while praying to get a weapon proc lol. I suppose in a duo aggro wouldnt be much of an issue, however once we start grouping, wouldnt it be come a problem?

Also little side question, do warriors get much better in velious, or kind of stay the same?

Root mobs for warrior aggro ;)

Vexenu
01-03-2015, 12:50 AM
Hey all thanks for the replies, I kind of figured Enchanter would be the best one all around however Ive got an Enchanter on Red and don't really have much desire to roll another one. The Mage sounded pretty nice and laid back, and I am actually considering that if I don't got a melee.

However like someone mentioned earlier, I am a bit established with $$$ on the server since I been here a while. Not super rich but Ive got a fungi, cof and random odds and ends, so I just figured it would make sense to make use out of those types of items, which is why I figured Warrior at first.

Main concern with the warrior though is there not being any snap aggro and tanking apparently is pretty difficult as a warrior because of it? I remember when grouping with warriors before, the rogue or someone would pull aggro and the warrior would just be yelling "stop attacking! give me a minute!!!" while praying to get a weapon proc lol. I suppose in a duo aggro wouldnt be much of an issue, however once we start grouping, wouldnt it be come a problem?

Also little side question, do warriors get much better in velious, or kind of stay the same?

A Warrior with Fungi and CoF isn't even going to need a Cleric until level 40 or so. Your Cleric friend will probably be bored stiff until then, and by the 40s and 50s the Cleric/Warrior duo really starts to lose effectiveness (higher mob HP) and you'll need to start forming groups anyway.

The Warrior is really solid come Velious, but that only matters if you intend to take him all the way to 60 and gear him up. It sounded like you just wanted a character to enjoy leveling with your friend, though, which changes the calculus a bit. If you aren't for sure going to beeline to 60, I think the Warrior loses a lot of appeal. Say you get bogged down in level 54 and start to get bored with the character. What can you do with a level 54 Warrior? Not a whole hell of a lot. How about a 54 Mage, though? Perfect to park at Seafuries or any number of money camps to jump on when you're bored, or use to PL friends with.

Basically, the Warrior really has nothing to offer except endgame raid tanking. If you aren't shooting for that, there's no point playing one since they aren't really good for much else.

Raev
01-03-2015, 01:12 AM
If you want to get your lady off in a corner by yourselves, than as mentioned Enchanter is the best choice by a large margin. 2nd best is probably Mage, although that puts a lot more pressure on her to CC/root etc. If you wish to play a melee class, there is a reason everyone and their brother has a monk. With self haste and cheap weapons monks do far more damage than warriors.

That said, I feel like people answer the 'best duo' question far too narrowly. For example, ROG/CLR is a completely reasonable duo imo. Sure, you'll suck balls by yourselves. But you fill your friends list with all the good enchanters and bards and tanks you meet and go from there. Since Cleric is such a great group class, really anything would work if you are willing to put in a little time with /who.

P.S. IMO Vex Warriors are still the best group tanks. Unfortunately a) getting good gear is very difficult and b) people are completely unwilling to stop facerolling their keyboards in order to mitigate their mediocre threat. Enchanters need to blur or root, shamans need to either tank a bit or hold off on slow, etc. If you can get gear and train your groupmates adequately, Warriors provide the best dps (inb4 some moron talks about how tank DPS is pointless, a 6-man group with a well-geared warrior will do 10% more damage than one with a Paladin or SK) and also have discs for boss mobs.

Mistle
01-03-2015, 02:40 AM
Warrior is probably the second WORST option (after paladin) for duo. Almost everything would be better. Only thing warrior has going for it in a duo is the mana effectiveness of complete heal.

But if the eye is towards full groups later it would be fine, and no nonsense hybrid penalties either.

Still, the correct answer is enchanter.

VincentVolaju
01-03-2015, 02:51 AM
Yeah not really leaning towards Warrior much anymore after reading most of the replies haha. Enchanter/Mage wouldn't be bad, but Id really prefer a melee class because I want to make use of a lot of the twink items I currently have like Fungi, CoF, HP items etc.

So if not warrior and not Int caster, then maybe an SK? Ranger perhaps?


Edit: Also wanted to add it will mostly be just a duo, though wouldn't mind getting in full groups from time to time when leveling in dungeons. Not really considering raiding / lvl 60 end game any time soon, at least not until a while after Velious is out. That's partly why I figured Warrior wasn't that great of an idea after, cause not really focusing on getting 60 asap, rather just casual duo leveling, and grouping sometimes.

coki
01-03-2015, 03:02 AM
I want to make use of a lot of the twink items I currently have like Fungi, CoF, HP items etc

you have those items but don't know what are the best or better 2 classes to duo with ?

VincentVolaju
01-03-2015, 04:16 AM
you have those items but don't know what are the best or better 2 classes to duo with ?

I know that the 2 best classes that everyones mentioned to duo with, are the ones I mentioned I didn't want to use because of having to flip the twink items I already have, thus the melee questions. Ive never done a melee 50+ aside for a Monk, and don't want to do a Monk because of that. I've got no experience with War/Sk/Ranger/Rogue/Pally etc. which is why I made the post to get opinions from people who do have experience in those classes or maybe to find something out I didn't already know about some kind of synergy with a cleric, who knows.

kaev
01-03-2015, 04:50 AM
What do you mean by best? Ranger+Cleric is great for fun, can kill lots of stuf, can build a group if you want one, can survive amazingly well while killing stuff. Paladin/Shadowknight/Warrior + Cleric is great group builder, Warrior probably best if you plan to mostly duo because better damage output than the knights (tho I'd say Ranger better duo tank than any of those three). Want to be powerful and don't mind stressful playstyle then go Enchanter + Cleric as mentioned. Want to play caster duo but not Enchanter? Mage or Necro + Cleric will probably work very well. Hell, Rogue + Cleric can be pretty damned good until you get high enough that Cleric tanking starts to really suck. Lots of good options for a steady partner with Cleric, how do you want to play it?

webrunner5
01-03-2015, 10:48 AM
What do you mean by best? Ranger+Cleric is great for fun, can kill lots of stuf, can build a group if you want one, can survive amazingly well while killing stuff. Paladin/Shadowknight/Warrior + Cleric is great group builder, Warrior probably best if you plan to mostly duo because better damage output than the knights (tho I'd say Ranger better duo tank than any of those three). Want to be powerful and don't mind stressful playstyle then go Enchanter + Cleric as mentioned. Want to play caster duo but not Enchanter? Mage or Necro + Cleric will probably work very well. Hell, Rogue + Cleric can be pretty damned good until you get high enough that Cleric tanking starts to really suck. Lots of good options for a steady partner with Cleric, how do you want to play it?

Yeah, hell yes, I would go with a Ranger before a Warrior if I had that gear and a Cleric to heal in a heartbeat. Outdoors a Ranger kicks ass Twinked and with good heals on them. Harmony Spell makes a Monk look like crap pulling wise. Not counting their other killer CC abilities..

And having Tracking in Velious is just a unbelievable Gift in that expansion. And a Ranger is far and away the best of the Trackers. And a Ranger can do just as much DPS as a Warrior other than when they are in Zerker Mode. I know they are squishy, but having a Cleric, well nuff said.

Danth
01-03-2015, 12:16 PM
P.S. IMO Vex Warriors are still the best group tanks. Unfortunately a) getting good gear is very difficult and b) people are completely unwilling to stop facerolling their keyboards in order to mitigate their mediocre threat. Enchanters need to blur or root, shamans need to either tank a bit or hold off on slow, etc. If you can get gear and train your groupmates adequately, Warriors provide the best dps (inb4 some moron talks about how tank DPS is pointless, a 6-man group with a well-geared warrior will do 10% more damage than one with a Paladin or SK) and also have discs for boss mobs.

I'll disagree with you here, albeit whilst noting that "best" is subjective so a differing opinion isn't invalid or wrong. If you care solely about raw efficiency, don't bother with a traditional tank type at all and instead use a Monk as tank--you get the same unreliable threat generation as a Warrior but even better damage output. Optionally, get rid of melee entirely and just use all casters. I feel the entire point of having a tank in a typical group is to make the grouping experience as stable and easy as possible for everyone else--and at that, Warriors fail due to their wholly inadequate threat generation and lack of control. As such I don't blame folks for being hesitant to move away from easymode: Why do more work with more personal risk for only small gains? I consider that a false economy.

----------------------------------------------------

If you want to push to level 60 I'd recommend a Halfling Warrior for the combined experience bonus and damage output. That will get you to 60 more quickly than any other melee+Cleric duo I can think of--even Monks come with a minimum 20% experience penalty. However the original poster said that's not his main priority.

If you don't care about leveling rate, and don't particularly care about level 60, then there's nothing wrong with the hybrids. You give up quite a bit of leveling efficiency and power but will probably have more fun on a per-hour basis. Rangers (along with Warriors) are a good choice because they have access to weapons that proc slow; a Ranger with a cheapy Swarmcaller tanking something that's 50% slowed will need less healing than a Paladin or Shadow Knight tanking an unslowed monster. Monks also rate well but he already said he isn't too inclined to make a Monk.

Of course the other potential problem here is the Cleric itself: Most folks find the class a bit boring. If this friend of yours isn't already familiar with EQ, do be sure to explain what the Cleric does for most of its life.

Danth

Fasttimes
01-03-2015, 12:46 PM
Do bard and cleric just have bard kite and cleric finish the mobs with pbae and ride the gravy train.

webrunner5
01-03-2015, 12:56 PM
Do bard and cleric just have bard kite and cleric finish the mobs with pbae and ride the gravy train.

Good suggestion. That would be pretty quick leveling for sure. :p

Vexenu
01-03-2015, 03:14 PM
I'll disagree with you here, albeit whilst noting that "best" is subjective so a differing opinion isn't invalid or wrong. If you care solely about raw efficiency, don't bother with a traditional tank type at all and instead use a Monk as tank--you get the same unreliable threat generation as a Warrior but even better damage output. Optionally, get rid of melee entirely and just use all casters. I feel the entire point of having a tank in a typical group is to make the grouping experience as stable and easy as possible for everyone else--and at that, Warriors fail due to their wholly inadequate threat generation and lack of control. As such I don't blame folks for being hesitant to move away from easymode: Why do more work with more personal risk for only small gains? I consider that a false economy.

I have to second this as well. I haven't played an uber geared Warrior, but have leveled a nicely geared twink Warrior into the 50s. I also leveled a much worse geared Paladin into the 50s. The Paladin was far and away the superior group tank, and it wasn't even close. Simply being able to root park adds as a tank is absurdly powerful and makes the group run much more smoothly, then add in instant/permanent threat with Blind, stuns to lock down casters, heals to reduce downtime (also DW Helm heals are no joke, especially with a Necro/Shaman in group to heal between pulls, something like 700 hp per minute mana free), and Lay On Hands to help prevent wipes/deaths (I was amazed how often this happened, usually at least once per group).

I can totally see how on paper a Warrior is the superior group tank, especially when uber geared and with bags full of clickies to help, and when grouping with other players who are skilled and understand how to play with a Warrior tank. But that's a helluva lot to ask for and get most of the time. The Paladin, in contrast, has a lot more latitude both in terms of gear requirements, class composition of group, as well as the knowledge/skill of group members.

I can't speak for the SK, never having leveled one past 20 or so, but the Paladin in my opinion is a massively underrated class on P1999. In terms of being able to leverage player skill and knowledge to aid a group, I think a good player tanking on a Paladin falls behind only the Bard and Enchanter in terms of what they can add to the group's effectiveness. It makes sense when you realize that of the four major elements of a group (heals, CC, tanking, DPS), the Paladin can make moderate to large contributions to all of them. While the Warrior basically just auto attacks, positions mobs and waits for procs, the Paladin is tanking with instant threat, rooting adds, stunning casters, healing when needed, emergency LoHing, etc... Just so many more opportunities for a skilled player to make use of his abilities.

Of course, this says nothing about a Paladin's raid role compared to the Warrior, but for pure leveling or dungeon crawling with a single group, the Paladin is really amazing.

Danth
01-03-2015, 04:38 PM
"I can't speak for the SK"

I play one as my main nowdays; formerly I played Paladins extensively. As a group tank I'd rate the Shadow Knight as in-between the Warrior and Paladin, though generally nearer to the Paladin in terms of both ease of doing their job and in damage output. Some groups prefer the SK since it can snare and coincidentally most of the snare-capable classes aren't hugely popular for grouping. I find the Shadow Knight a nice compromise between wanting to remain a competent tank for standard groups whilst having a better quality of life in solo or duo situations than the other two tank types. In full groups I miss some of the tools a Paladin brings, especially the Paladin's arsenal of stuns when fighting monsters that heal themselves.

Danth

kaev
01-03-2015, 04:53 PM
... (also DW Helm heals are no joke, especially with a Necro/Shaman in group to heal between pulls, something like 700 hp per minute mana free)...

DW Helm is nice, but it is NOT a mana free heal unless you are (a) able to stand around for 10 seconds per cast doing exactly nothing else and (b) unable to sit to med and (c) willing to forgo level-appropriate buffs that conflict (the entire rest of the Cleric Heroism line and the Druid Natureskin line.) I have not yet encountered situations on p99 where all of those were true except for very brief periods of time. A 10 second cast means that even if you have no lag or server latency so you can time perfectly and only lose one med tick per cast you still lose that med tick (and you can click only 5x per minute rather than chain-clicking 6x per minute if you sit between casts and catch the med ticks you can.)

It's a nice clicky. But it's not truly mana-free and it sees limited use in a solid group at an active camp with heavy fighting (i.e. xp grinding.) Using the click prevents you from doing anything else 10 seconds at a time, for a whopping 110 to 125hp per cast (at L45 to L60), is that really what you want your tank doing?

Vexenu
01-03-2015, 08:24 PM
DW Helm is nice, but it is NOT a mana free heal unless you are (a) able to stand around for 10 seconds per cast doing exactly nothing else and (b) unable to sit to med and (c) willing to forgo level-appropriate buffs that conflict (the entire rest of the Cleric Heroism line and the Druid Natureskin line.) I have not yet encountered situations on p99 where all of those were true except for very brief periods of time. A 10 second cast means that even if you have no lag or server latency so you can time perfectly and only lose one med tick per cast you still lose that med tick (and you can click only 5x per minute rather than chain-clicking 6x per minute if you sit between casts and catch the med ticks you can.)

It's a nice clicky. But it's not truly mana-free and it sees limited use in a solid group at an active camp with heavy fighting (i.e. xp grinding.) Using the click prevents you from doing anything else 10 seconds at a time, for a whopping 110 to 125hp per cast (at L45 to L60), is that really what you want your tank doing?

This is all true, but needlessly pedantic. Of course a good player isn't just going to sit there and spam DW helm heals when he should be doing something else. The DW helm is just a nice little utility item to have in the toolbox. It won't see much use in a chain pulling group with a Cleric and an Enchanter, true, but it's very nice when soloing, or in a small group/duo situation (which can happen often to hybrids on P1999). Also very useful for post-rez healing. At the end of the day it's just a clicky heal. Not exactly a Donal's BP, but something that most other classes would kill for due to the situational value.

webrunner5
01-03-2015, 08:53 PM
This is all true, but needlessly pedantic. Of course a good player isn't just going to sit there and spam DW helm heals when he should be doing something else. The DW helm is just a nice little utility item to have in the toolbox. It won't see much use in a chain pulling group with a Cleric and an Enchanter, true, but it's very nice when soloing, or in a small group/duo situation (which can happen often to hybrids on P1999). Also very useful for post-rez healing. At the end of the day it's just a clicky heal. Not exactly a Donal's BP, but something that most other classes would kill for due to the situational value.

I agree. Most groups don't pull mob after mob for 3 hours straight. Even the Healer has to go pee lol once and a while. So between breaks, with the puller, Tank, healer, etc. the Helm does add up for less mana loss on the main healer. It is a nice item to have in the game no doubt. Solo it helps even more for a Pally.

kaev
01-03-2015, 10:01 PM
This is all true, but needlessly pedantic. Of course a good player isn't just going to sit there and spam DW helm heals when he should be doing something else. The DW helm is just a nice little utility item to have in the toolbox. It won't see much use in a chain pulling group with a Cleric and an Enchanter, true, but it's very nice when soloing, or in a small group/duo situation (which can happen often to hybrids on P1999). Also very useful for post-rez healing. At the end of the day it's just a clicky heal. Not exactly a Donal's BP, but something that most other classes would kill for due to the situational value.

I disagree. I would say that when people keep bringing up a marginally useful item as some sort of bigtime class perk they need to have their noses rubbed in reality. Its greatest utility occurs when recovering from a wipe (rare in a competent group, even when attempting challenging content) or solo (and soloing a Paladin is at best silly and at worst evidence of crippling masochistic tendencies and/or severe brain injury.) The DW Helm is not important. It was important for a week or two on live when it had a fairly short cast time and people were using it to heal groups, whereupon it was quickly and effectively nerfed into the dirt.

Vexenu
01-04-2015, 12:07 AM
I disagree. I would say that when people keep bringing up a marginally useful item as some sort of bigtime class perk they need to have their noses rubbed in reality. Its greatest utility occurs when recovering from a wipe (rare in a competent group, even when attempting challenging content) or solo (and soloing a Paladin is at best silly and at worst evidence of crippling masochistic tendencies and/or severe brain injury.) The DW Helm is not important. It was important for a week or two on live when it had a fairly short cast time and people were using it to heal groups, whereupon it was quickly and effectively nerfed into the dirt.

Not sure why you are taking such issue with my contention that the DW helm is "no joke" (my exact words, note the lack of calling it a "big time class perk").

There are a lot of classes in the game that would pay millions of plat for an item that would allow them to heal 700 hp per minute for zero mana (consider the value of a pre-nerf Fungus staff). Paladins get it for 400 plat instead. It's not a class defining item or anything, but it's something that every Paladin should have and know when to use. I'd say it's similar in this regard to Rangers with Swarmcaller - not something to be used all the time, but very useful in certain situations.

On another note, we've definitely derailed the shit out of this thread. From Cleric duoing to now debating the merits of the DW helm.

Raev
01-04-2015, 01:49 AM
reasonable yet flawed arguments

I think you guys are basically saying that there are a lot of bad players out there, and on a Paladin you can carry them more than on a warrior. Rogue doesn't know how to use Evade? Flash of light! Monk can't be convinced to push? Stun! Enchanter sucks at CC? Root park! Cleric fucks up the CH timing? Lay hands! And so on. This is exactly what I was saying: as a warrior you are more dependent on a functional group.

Also, I think you are selling warriors hugely short. "Wholly inadequate threat generation" is simply not accurate. Sakuragi gets like 80 hate/second with his epic/shissar combo - that's the equivalent of casting one stun every 6s or so. The problem is the inconsistency: the Paladin gets his stun when he wants it, while the warrior prays to the proc gods. Warrior dps is right up there with Monks: Raev will do like 70-75 in a group while Sakuragi does 60-65 (and I'm not even str capped, iksars). Warriors are fine vs caster mobs: slip around to the back and pop stunning kick and in my experience that's good enough to interrupt 50% of all spells. And who is going to do better interrupting the gating myconid adept, the warrior pushing with two sub 20 delay weapons or the Paladin chaining his stun and praying that it lands? Not to mention that discs are fantastic when you are pulling really big stuff. Sakuragi tanked Emperor Chottal successfully at L52. I find it very hard to believe a Paladin could pull that off.

Don't get me wrong, I love hybrids. When I rolled Sakuragi (4 years ago!) I already had a 60 enchanter so I was looking for a raid character more than a grouping one. Paladin and SK both feel like they would be a ton of fun in groups. I just think that in the end, if you have a quality group, warrior is the min/max choice.

Danth
01-04-2015, 02:28 PM
I don't know that anyone's argument is flawed so much as we place different weights on different aspects of gameplay. I consider Warriors superior for content where their disciplines are necessary. That's what they do and I don't begrudge them for it (I don't even ask to tank raid bosses--even if I can--because I feel it takes away from their purpose in life). Outside that it becomes a question of min/max theorycraft versus practical ease of use and ability to adapt to different situations.

I wouldn't even be here if I wanted to play a Warrior: My wife would quit due to annoyance, then I'd quit out of boredom. She's plenty competent, but likes being active and doesn't enjoy having to hold back to compensate for a weak tank. She *hates* Warriors as tanks. Malo something, get hit. Wait 15%, cast Turgur's, get hit. Slow resists, try again, get summoned and die. Most of her deaths occur due to Warrior tanks and their inability to hold aggro, and she hates it so much she avoids them as much as possible, even to the point of largely avoiding raiding. Actually being able to play her class normally and do her job and have fun trumps any on-paper efficiency. As such, for our needs the hybrids are flat-out better. How do you quantify that? You can't parse fun. While I can't speak for everyone, I'm certainly not alone there, either.

I wonder about the Warrior's DPS advantage; is this with the Hybrid tank egging on his group to push harder and with telling his DPS'ers to go all out? Just because the hybrid's group has the option to play lazier doesn't follow that they must. I don't run parsers, but folks I group with--offensive casters, particularly--often discuss how much extra damage they can do when they aren't effectively aggro-capped. Warriors, by contrast, will naturally benefit from classes (you mention Rogues) which can readily control their own aggro without detriment to their damage output.

You have an advantage though; you've spent more than ten times on your Warrior as I've spent on my Shadow Knight. You do stress the importance of good gear (even gear so expensive as to be beyond what most players can hope to obtain). I don't know, firsthand, how much of a difference those VP weapons make. Can your Shamans confidently malo on pull, as soon as the target's in range, then spam Turgur's half a dozen or more times in a row as fast as cooldown permits without fear of death? If they can do that consistently and reliably without getting hit, then the hybrids' advantage largely evaporates. Maybe the VP weapons are just that good. You tell me.

Danth

Raev
01-04-2015, 07:25 PM
I was just trolling you with the flawed thing :p

Actually being able to play her class normally and do her job and have fun trumps any on-paper efficiency . . . Can your Shamans confidently malo on pull, as soon as the target's in range, then spam Turgur's half a dozen or more times in a row as fast as cooldown permits without fear of death?

The VP weapons are good, but not that good. My sperglord calculator suggests that Epic/Shissar is 81 hate/sec, while a Sarnak Warhammer/Silken Whip combo (typical for a leveling warrior) is about 65. So, a nice 20-25% boost but not game changing. A shaman chaining Turgur's every 9 seconds will pull about 700/9 = 78 hate/sec. So in principle the math works.

In reality, the warrior aggro is very inconsistent. Some times you proc 3x in the first 10s and nothing the shaman or wizard does will matter. Sometimes you don't proc at all, and then it sucks. Without any procs at all Sakuragi is like 50 hate/sec, well below the Shaman Threshold. The SW/SW leveling warrior is probably like 40 - even worse. So if you are a shaman playing with a warrior, you can't autopilot malo/turgurs/malosini/turgurs etc. You have to watch the warrior for that casting animation that signifies the procs. The good news is, with a hybrid you *have* to chain slow because they are getting pasted. With a warrior, who cares? They can pop their disc and tank it unslowed the whole way if they have to. And who cares about the offensive casters? Wizards have concussion. Mages should be chaining the burnt wood staff. Druids will usually have other things to do. And mana regen is so slow that they have no excuse for not waiting.

Again, my point is this: you can't play on autopilot with a warrior tank, but if you are willing to pay attention it works out fine.

VincentVolaju
01-04-2015, 10:02 PM
Hey guys thanks for all the info, I actually decided to go with a Ranger over Warrior. I think itll be more fun while leveling and will be nice to have root/snare etc.

Danth
01-04-2015, 10:49 PM
Again, my point is this....if you are willing to pay attention it works out fine.

No disagreement there. I find most things work out fine with folks who pay attention, even beyond relative class strengths or whatnot.

Danth

webrunner5
01-05-2015, 06:43 AM
I don't think it makes much of a difference who you have as a Tank as of now. Hell most mobs are dead in 30 seconds. Even in Raids.

And the rule of thumb is a Caster should never cast a spell on the mob until it is below 80%. You are just asking for agro if you don't abide by that rule.

But that will change a lot in Velious when fights last minutes not seconds. I think a lot of people will be looking for a Warrior as their Tank. :p