PDA

View Full Version : Game Mechanics: spell gem refresh with instant clicky does not refresh all spell gems correctly


Nirgon
03-20-2015, 01:05 PM
The top spell gem works correctly when refreshed by hitting a clicky

The other slots need to work like this one, no freaking clue why it is different

:confused:

Ele
03-20-2015, 01:17 PM
Don't you mean the other way around? Fix gem #1 so it doesn't defeat the spell recast vs. general cool down?

Nirgon
03-20-2015, 02:20 PM
nope

I could lure of ice-> clicky -> lure of ice from any spell slot on live instantly

Otherwise what was the point of hitting the clicky to instantly recast/spam the same spell?

I def wasn't weaving draughts or another spell otherwise on live

Druids spammed chloroblast like this too, spell slot it was memmed in didn't matter

We also noticed a bug where if harvest was memmed in the top slot, it would come back well before it was ready

Still got NO CLUE why the top spell gem is this magical thing compared to the others

Just wanna be able to mash annul magic on dispel fights and not have to put it in top spell slot, u kno?

Ele
03-20-2015, 03:28 PM
Just for spells with recast times less than or equal to GCD? DA and Harvest over and over again seems a bit odd.

Currently, if you put DA or other long recast in slot 1, gem refreshes but you get error that spell recovery not met.

Nirgon
03-20-2015, 03:32 PM
Yeah that's broken too I guess but of lesser concern

Anything with standard gcd should auto refresh when you hit a clicky, and not require the top spell slot

Casters are at enough of a disadvantage here compared to melees with all of them having infinite endurance to attack with no buffs / attack at full speed after immediately rezzed

planarity
03-25-2015, 08:24 AM
The way that slot#1 seems to work is like this: It will let you recast the spell there instantly; a cooldown check occurs but it occurs at the end of the cast as opposed to the beginning. So spells like DA which have much shorter cast time than recast time cannot be recasted instantly (the cast occurs, but instead of the spell landing you get the "recast time not yet met" message in red text). On the other hand, a spell like CH, which has no additional cooldown, will succeed because by the end of the cast, the cooldown time (which for CH is just the standard cooldown) has already elapsed.

Erati
06-08-2015, 11:15 AM
bump - would like to see all spell slot gems refreshing rather than just slot 1

SamwiseRed
06-08-2015, 12:16 PM
Casters gonna get obliterated in Velious with the current resist system. I am for this.

Daldaen
06-08-2015, 12:28 PM
Casters gonna get obliterated in Velious with the current resist system. I am for this.

All players will get crushed when 255 MR is getting 80% of your raid feared, half of them for max duration.

AE fights will turn into mass zergs. Camp out your four level 60 Alts!

SamwiseRed
06-08-2015, 12:32 PM
All players will get crushed when 255 MR is getting 80% of your raid feared, half of them for max duration.

AE fights will turn into mass zergs. Camp out your four level 60 Alts!

I was talking PvP :P I don't care about raid merbs. I hope they make raids hard as hell.

Nirgon
06-08-2015, 01:23 PM
Very classic mechanic just want it in dont care about pros/cons

SamwiseRed
06-08-2015, 03:27 PM
meh i dont play here for the mechanics. i play here because no boxing and populated classic game world. balancing and actually making the game challenging > classic. dont care. put it in.

Erati
06-08-2015, 04:30 PM
Very classic mechanic just want it in dont care about pros/cons

this - it currently only works with the top spell slot and tons of evidence supports that is how ALL the slots should function

so lets get the other 7 slots up to speed !

Grimjaw
06-08-2015, 04:40 PM
Don't you mean the other way around? Fix gem #1 so it doesn't defeat the spell recast vs. general cool down?

^ this.


nirgon got things so twisted in this thread. all clickys do is refresh GCD. slot 1 is currently bugged where it refreshes any cooldown (hence the "harvest" bug he mentions).

Lure of Ice has a 2.25 sec recast time which is longer than global cooldown.

It didn't hit the normal cooldowns. just the global between spells. it should allow you to cast lure of ice ,then instantly lure of something else, without waiting for the global cooldown.

Otherwise what was the point of hitting the clicky to instantly recast/spam the same spell?


it never was about instantly recast/spam the same spell. just about instant chain-casting other spells without waiting for the GCD. in rare occasions some spells had zero recast time, and could be chained due to the GCD clicky trick. But not Lure of Ice which has a 2.25 sec recast.


anyway, it sounds like around pop era they made changes to GCD and maybe played around with recast times?

SamwiseRed
06-08-2015, 06:00 PM
^is right. its not supposed to be used for the same spell. its only for GCD. like ice comet > clicky > other nuke will let you chain 2 nukes back to back. wtf is he trying to pull off here. cant believe i didnt read in between the lines. that is fucking hilarious if there is a bug to reduce harvest atm. talk about broken.

Erati
06-08-2015, 06:18 PM
^ this.


nirgon got things so twisted in this thread. all clickys do is refresh GCD. slot 1 is currently bugged where it refreshes any cooldown (hence the "harvest" bug he mentions).

Lure of Ice has a 2.25 sec recast time which is longer than global cooldown.

It didn't hit the normal cooldowns. just the global between spells. it should allow you to cast lure of ice ,then instantly lure of something else, without waiting for the global cooldown.



it never was about instantly recast/spam the same spell. just about instant chain-casting other spells without waiting for the GCD. in rare occasions some spells had zero recast time, and could be chained due to the GCD clicky trick. But not Lure of Ice which has a 2.25 sec recast.


anyway, it sounds like around pop era they made changes to GCD and maybe played around with recast times?

This is pretty far off- clickies certainly will refresh the SAME spell if the spells cool down is less or equal to the spells cast time

so the clicky refreshing the icon isnt gonna do anything for spells like harvest or even teleport spells but a heal spell like Remedy or Sup heal...they have cooldown times of 2.25 seconds and cast times greater than the CD

so when u insta refresh a spell like that- then cast back to back- the cool down of the spell IS being met (remember cooldown has to b < cast time of spell) then wow it fires like Nirgon said....

pls fix for all spell slots-theres no bug here just broken spell gems not refreshing like the top one

the Game doesnt check if the cool down of spells is met til AFTER the spell is cast not to initialize the act of casting

thats why clickies to refresh n cast faster works- but the spells CD has to be less or equal to its cast time for the spell to fire properly

Nirgon
06-08-2015, 09:48 PM
Watch the sontalak kill vid on YouTube

He hits his jboots and everything comes back at the same time

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 12:31 AM
got a link to the sontalak video?

This is pretty far off- clickies certainly will refresh the SAME spell if the spells cool down is less or equal to the spells cast time

so the clicky refreshing the icon isnt gonna do anything for spells like harvest or even teleport spells but a heal spell like Remedy or Sup heal...they have cooldown times of 2.25 seconds and cast times greater than the CD

so when u insta refresh a spell like that- then cast back to back- the cool down of the spell IS being met (remember cooldown has to b < cast time of spell) then wow it fires like Nirgon said....

pls fix for all spell slots-theres no bug here just broken spell gems not refreshing like the top one

the Game doesnt check if the cool down of spells is met til AFTER the spell is cast not to initialize the act of casting

thats why clickies to refresh n cast faster works- but the spells CD has to be less or equal to its cast time for the spell to fire properly

so your suggesting that in classic, recast time started counting down at the START of the cast? not bloody likely... that would have made for some pretty interesting interrupt mechanics.

there was another mechanic at play but it wasnt this. we'll need to keep digging.

If Nirgon is correct about Lure of Ice, then my theory is that some pop-era changes put longer recast times on spells like that, making them not work the same as in original.

you guys are getting confused with the post-pop era changes that emplemented warning messages like "Spell recast time not yet met"

Nirgon
06-09-2015, 12:41 AM
This old post (http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?6346-Shock-of-Lightning-what-level-do-they-start-resisting-it)


SoL's not dead...with a nice clicky stick you can chain them pretty fast, and they're quick enough to get off in those "swirling combat" situations. Damage on it sucks, but when you need to shut down a caster, well, that'll do the trick. Just hope you have enough mana.




You can flux to SoL faster. You have to leave a short pause before casting the SoL and it works just fine (otherwise you get the not recovered message). I do it all the time with a crystalized pumice on my 24 wizard


there u go. /threadskies, looks like it starts counting recast at the time of cast

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 12:59 AM
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=52932&postcount=13

The recast on all spells unless otherwise specified is 2.0 seconds. Think of it as a spell cool of time. You have to include these 2.0 seconds in all your calculations. That said, using insta click items you can exploit to get around the 2.0 second recast, but verant hard coded fast casting spells to prevent this, you notice the "Spell recovery time not met" messages


So ya, thats probably the old missing mechanic - not all spells even listed a recast. for spells with no recast it was just the 2 second global cooldown holding them back, and THAT is what clickies circumvented.

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 01:01 AM
This old post (http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?6346-Shock-of-Lightning-what-level-do-they-start-resisting-it)





there u go. /threadskies, looks like it starts counting recast at the time of cast

nice find. according to that thread SoL never got resisted


oh and by the way... from your same proof thread:

http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?6346-Shock-of-Lightning-what-level-do-they-start-resisting-it&p=131974&viewfull=1#post131974


evantine, Lure of Ice changes pvp slightly I have heard.

SoL when they try to heal.

edit: oh, btw I was fighting a 52+ Wizard yesterday (I was 50) and we were both using SoL to interrupt each other's heavier nukes.. and SoL interrupted our nukes everytime. Great spell, so far in my Zek wizard's career it's perma memmed. I'd drop snare for Draught of Fire, and Ice Comet for Lure of Ice. SoL is just too useful.

oh and btw, you can't use flux staff to chain SoL faster.


my theory now is that this whole "spell recast time not yet met" mechanic was added around luclin 2001.

the post you quoted was from December 18th, 2001, right after Luclin launch

prove me wrong by showing "spell recast time not yet met" existed earlier. strange how it never existed in logs before then,

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 01:36 AM
aaaaand boom goes the dynamite:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13927

01-14-2003, 05:50 AM #1
Corish-MT
On Sabbatical

Corish-MT's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 245
Corish-MT

All spells now have a min recast time of 2.2 seconds?
http://lucy.fnord.net/newspells.html...ate=2003-01-14 02:25:32

Changes on the test server this morning... from a cursory glance, it looks like any spell with a recast time of less then 2.2 seconds has been changed to Recast=2.2sec.

And yes, that includes Remedy... and CH...

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 01:38 AM
so ya, i was on the right track. Aparently in classic A LOT of spells had Instant (zero) recast. example: all of clerics heals

that allowed instant recast with clickies. because the only thing holding them back was the GCD.



so lets worry about getting classic mechanics back such as "Recast: Instant / 0" (and not every spell having a minimum recast time of 2.2)

And THEN we can talk about chain casting spells with clickies...


(and in the meantime fix gem slot 1 so clickies wont circumvent 5 minute recast timers)

Nirgon
06-09-2015, 06:19 AM
think its 2.5

Daldaen
06-09-2015, 08:06 AM
It was 2 (I guess 2.2 but with latency you didn't notice the .2). GoD increased GCD to 2.5

Technique
06-09-2015, 08:58 AM
got a link to the sontalak video?
https://youtu.be/9opZFThy95w?t=18s
so lets worry about getting classic mechanics back such as "Recast: Instant / 0" (and not every spell having a minimum recast time of 2.2)
I think you're confusing recast and recovery time. They're seperate values, both of which existed during Classic and are working properly here on p99. The recovery time of the last spell cast determines the duration of the "GCD".

Recovery time for most spells is 2.25s, but for some it's longer. For example, Supernova (L49 wiz pbae) has a recovery time of 6s and a recast of 12s. Casting it will grey out all your spell gems for 6s. Using an instant clicky should reset the recovery time on all memmed spells allowing you to cast any of them immediately (assuming they don't have individual recast times).

The inaccuracy on p99 is that doing this doesn't reset the recovery time of the last spell cast unless it's in the 1st slot. Notice in the sontalak video @2:27 (https://youtu.be/9opZFThy95w?t=2m26s) that the cleric clicks his jboots and it resets recovery time on all spells, even the heal spell he just cast, while the 8th gem (Divine Aura/Barrier) remains greyed out because it's on recast.
(and in the meantime fix gem slot 1 so clickies wont circumvent 5 minute recast timers)
They don't. At best you're able to shave the casting time of the spell off its recast time because you can begin casting it before the recast time is up.

Erati
06-09-2015, 10:00 AM
(and in the meantime fix gem slot 1 so clickies wont circumvent 5 minute recast timers)

this doesnt happen now - im confused

unless you mean 'graphically' circumventing bc if you put Harvest in slot one and use a clickie - the gem will refresh but the spell will NOT be able to be used instantly

Tech above me hit the ball out of the park - video evidence clearly shows all gems behaving like the 1st spell slot does here and he explained how the mechanic works

its confusing ill admit esp if you dont realize what is happening and would def appear bugged on our server when spells like Harvest or DA pop up instantly in the first spell slot after a clicky - but those are graphical errors not the spell being ready to cast

Daldaen
06-09-2015, 10:14 AM
Yea it would be nice if that graphical bug, like the LoH/HT one were fixed, so you know when your long reuse abilities are active.

Erati
06-09-2015, 10:17 AM
like the LoH/HT one were fixed, so you know when your long reuse abilities are active.

omg if they could fix this and the LoH/HT crap amazing....

playing a paladin since 2010 - LoH bug has annoyed me so many times

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 02:05 PM
Recovery time for most spells is 2.25s
not classic. see my link regarding 2003 patch giving all spells a minimum 2.2 sec recast time when prior to that a lot of spells had zero recast time

i'll stick to using the terms "global cooldown (Recovery?)" and "recast".

For example, Supernova (L49 wiz pbae) has a recovery time of 6s and a recast of 12s. Casting it will grey out all your spell gems for 6s. Using an instant clicky should reset the recovery time on all memmed spells allowing you to cast any of them immediately (assuming they don't have individual recast times).

The inaccuracy on p99 is that doing this doesn't reset the recovery time of the last spell cast unless it's in the 1st slot.

first you say supernova should be greyed out 12 seconds regardless of clickies, then you go on to say that gem slot 1 is working as intended by popping it up???

the problem is gem slot 1 ignores "recast time of 12s" and pops it out anyways

that the cleric clicks his jboots and it resets recovery time on all spells, even the heal spell he just cast, while the 8th gem (Divine Aura/Barrier) remains greyed out because it's on recast.
again, under classic mechanics cleric heals had instant recast time. the only thing holding it back should be the global cooldown (recovery?).

They don't. At best you're able to shave the casting time of the spell off its recast time because you can begin casting it before the recast time is up. regardless, not classic. therefore gem slot 1 is bugged, and the rest are working fine.


just need to get back on point - removing recast times for spells that didn't have it before the 2003 patch. that would fix nirgons initial complaint.

also gem slot 1 is bugged because a clicky will pop any gem even if its 5 minute recast..

Erati
06-09-2015, 02:17 PM
just need to get back on point - removing recast times for spells that didn't have it before the 2003 patch. that would fix nirgons initial complaint.

also gem slot 1 is bugged because a clicky will pop any gem even if its 5 minute recast..

would love some dev comments about what is possible / what is occuring

Technique
06-09-2015, 04:09 PM
not classic. see my link regarding 2003 patch giving all spells a minimum 2.2 sec recast time when prior to that a lot of spells had zero recast timeEvery spell has an individual recovery time that determines the duration of the GCD after casting it. Only certain spells have recast times (e.g., Divine Aura: 15m). These values are present in even the earliest spdats. There's no hard recast time on all spells here on p99.

first you say supernova should be greyed out 12 seconds regardless of clickies, then you go on to say that gem slot 1 is working as intended by popping it up???I said any spell that doesn't have a recast time should be refreshed. That obviously excludes Supernova, which has a 12s recast.

regardless, not classic. therefore gem slot 1 is bugged, and the rest are working fine.Slot 1 isn't working correctly, that's not being disputed. But the rest simply aren't working at all like they should be (there's even video proof of it) and that's what prompted this thread.

From the eqclerics thread you linked (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13927) about the newly added recast times:
I admit this could be seen as a bug fix - so we no longer can CH - jboot - CH and skip the recast entirely - but it saddens me nonetheless.

Clicking to skip recast was the only thing that made some fights fun - CH - click - nuke - click - and CH again just time comes to mind

You will still be able to CH-click-Nuke-click-CH
You just wont be able to CH-click-CH
Aside from the first guy sharing your confusion and mistaking recast for recovery, this is more evidence that clickies refreshed all gems (that weren't currently on recast cooldown).

just need to get back on point - removing recast times for spells that didn't have it before the 2003 patch. that would fix nirgons initial complaint.These spells already don't have recast times; removing what doesn't exist won't fix anything.

also gem slot 1 is bugged because a clicky will pop any gem even if its 5 minute recast..Yes, this is true, yes it shouldn't work like that, but the benefit is negligible because the spell fails to take effect if the cast finishes before its recast time is met.

It sounds like you believe there are perpetually invulnerable clerics/necros and chain harvesting wizards running around the server.

evilkorn
06-09-2015, 04:11 PM
again, under classic mechanics cleric heals had instant recast time. the only thing holding it back should be the global cooldown (recovery?).



According to the spdat, healing spells have 2.5 second recast (3 on word of health). But because those have a cast time longer than the global cool down you should be able to spam those with a insta clickie. The cleric forum linked mentioned yelp saying because it had a short cast time they got the error spell recovery not met.

Grimjaw
06-09-2015, 11:37 PM
From the eqclerics thread you linked about the newly added recast times:
Quote:
I admit this could be seen as a bug fix - so we no longer can CH - jboot - CH and skip the recast entirely - but it saddens me nonetheless.

Clicking to skip recast was the only thing that made some fights fun - CH - click - nuke - click - and CH again just time comes to mind
Quote:
You will still be able to CH-click-Nuke-click-CH
You just wont be able to CH-click-CH
Aside from the first guy sharing your confusion and mistaking recast for recovery, this is more evidence that clickies refreshed all gems (that weren't currently on recast cooldown).

We're basically arguing for the same point. I agree in classic you could CH-click-CH and here you cannot. But the point i am trying to make is that all spells are hard-coded on p1999 with a minimum recast of 2.2. (which needs to be fixed to resolve the OP's problem). That is why CH is still greyed out after using your clicky on p1999 but it wasnt on live (apply this scenario to many spells). In classic live, CH had a recast of zero. That is what allowed you to chain cast it, and that is what needs to be fixed here.

so far in this thread, the only other suggestion to fix this problem is "gem 1 works fine so apply it to all". Even though many people here are in agreement that gem1 is NOT fine. What i offer is the plausible answer to the cause & effect of what is happening and how we can resolve it. (without breaking every gem slot like gem1 is). I have not heard any other options to resolve this problem besides OPs bizarre one, and my sound logic.

I am not confusing recast with recovery. Clickies currently reset the recovery time. The problem with chain-casting the same spell is, again, a Recast of 2.2 hard-coded into every spell!

These spells already don't have recast times; removing what doesn't exist won't fix anything.


I disagree. Even if its not hard-coded in spdat it is hard-coded somewhere. Can a GM please look into this and confirm? its blatantly obvious that's whats occurring, by the way it currently works on p1999

It sounds like you believe there are perpetually invulnerable clerics/necros and chain harvesting wizards running around the server.
no... thats not at all what i think. I am using those spells as example because the bug is clearly evident when using examples with 5 minute recast. the gem simply should stay grayed out. The gem1 bug is actually exacerbated with 5 second spells, with 5 sec recast. Because when it refreshes from a clicky (it shouldnt) and you start casting again, by the time it finishes casting the server allows it, because its past the time. It simply shouldnt pop out yet. (and i know you agree with me, given your supernova example). None of this timing mechanics with the server should come into play because it should be greyed out for 5 seconds regardless of clickies.


Pillar of Frost (51 wiz quading spell)
Cast Time = 4.5 sec
Recast Time = 6 sec

Basically the gem1 bug allows you fire off a Pillar of Frost every 6 seconds (currently you can circumvent the recast mechanic in gem1 using a clicky, thereby starting the next cast 6 seconds early!!!!)
when in classic it would be greyed out for 6 sec. Plus the cast time you'd be getting 1 Pillar of Frost every 11 seconds.


Yes, this is true, yes it shouldn't work like that, but the benefit is negligible because the spell fails to take effect if the cast finishes before its recast time is met.
It sounds like you believe there are perpetually invulnerable clerics/necros and chain harvesting wizards running around the server.
given my Pillar of Frost example above, the only thing negligible is allowing this bug to continue unchecked. and DEFINITELY NOT applying gem1 bug to all gem slots, like Nirgon's OP suggest.


its all cause and effect. I like to get down to the root of the problem, implement the missing mechanics etc, to create the desired effect that we all agree is classic. You and Nirgon are trying to fix this chain-casting problem with a bandaid solution that just breaks more things than it fixes.

Grimjaw
06-10-2015, 02:04 AM
bug # 1 - we cannot chain-cast certain spells like CH because they seem to be locked out due to a recast timer. When in classic they had no recast timer.

bug # 2 - using a clicky, gem slot 1 refreshes any spell regardless of the recast timer. the other gem slots are fine and only reset the global cooldown while properly following the rules of the recast timer.

op and a few others are suggesting to fix bug # 1 by applying bug # 2 to every single gem.

and im saying to disregard bug # 2 for now. Lets just focus on bug # 1. and the fix for that is for devs to look into and remove the hard-coded 2.2 sec recast time that evidently exists regardless what the spdat says.

Erati
06-10-2015, 10:22 AM
nice post

seems we need the Devs to comment about what is happening code/server wise

Nirgon
06-10-2015, 12:05 PM
Heard we got some extra time on the clock b4 Velious, I'm sure this is a coding pain in the ass and involves client side stuff.

Awaiting Nilberg/designated emissary's grand entrance to thread.

Big things here.

Erati
06-12-2015, 11:17 AM
up for dev commentary

Erati
06-16-2015, 01:34 PM
up for dev commentary

Erati
06-25-2015, 09:47 AM
up for dev commentary

.

Erati
07-22-2015, 09:42 AM
up for dev commentary

bump hoping for some kind of comment ab whether gems can even b fixed to behave classically (all refresh w clicky- spells w long recast (harvest etc) dont instantly pop up if not rdy to b cast when GCD clicky used)

wwoneo
07-05-2016, 07:58 PM
bump hoping for some kind of comment ab whether gems can even b fixed to behave classically (all refresh w clicky- spells w long recast (harvest etc) dont instantly pop up if not rdy to b cast when GCD clicky used)

^

planarity
07-05-2016, 11:34 PM
haven't read through all the arcane details of this long and technical thread, but in case it hasn't been stated or anyone is unclear:

the current difference between gem #1 and the others is that for gem #1 the recast time is checked at the end of the cast, whereas for the other gems, the recast time is checked at the beginning.

This is why gem #1 is the only one that produces the "recast time not met" message, because for the other gems the casting is preempted completely.

If this is known and clear to everyone, then just ignore and accept this free bump.