Sneak / FD nerfs

[Raev]

1. Now that we have projectiles working (great work Haynar) can we get sneak dropping on ranged attack?

2. Somehow the sneak/invis clearing aggro patch got rolled back. Basically any time you stand up while indifferent you are guaranteed to blur.

When both of these are fixed pulling is going to be a lot more classic (not to mention balanced!) around here.

[Supaskillz]

This ^

[eisley]

Worth noting that #2 specifically worked with Circlet of Shadows if you stood up and hit it IMMEDIATELY. You could even FD while a mob was casting on you, stand up and mash CoS thru the spell hitting you, and the mob still wouldn't re-aggro (assuming it didn't see invis, and there weren't other mobs in assist range).

[EQsale]

Would be nice to be fixed 2 people camping seb king has too stop

[Raev]

The way it is supposed to work is that when you stand up indifferent, the mobs don't aggro, but its not a blur (they come for you when invis/sneak drops unless they reset first)

[Colgate]

pretty sure right now you can aggro non-KoS mobs, feign death, and immediately stand up and lose all aggro

would need to test more

[Treats]

The way it is supposed to work is that when you stand up indifferent, the mobs don't aggro, but its not a blur (they come for you when invis/sneak drops unless they reset first)

How does an NPC not pursue after standing if you are still on it's hate list no matter if sneaking or not?

Makes no sense, the hate list is not dumped until the NPC resets or is mem blurred.

[Raev]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=678086&postcount=4


Seems like this is how it should be working:

Necro/SK aggroes a pack of mobs
Necro/SK Feigns Death
Necro/SK stands and instantly does Circlet

All mobs that were aggro are under the impression that the Necro/SK is still Feigned (Even though now the player is just Invisible)

If at any point before the mobs return to their static spawn points the Necro/SK's Invis is dropped they will see the Necro/SK as standing up and breaking their Feign

[Brocode]

Point 1 bring the homework up, they need the proofs.

Point 2 not true, thats not a 100%, you could get blur once they hit their spawn point, before you have a chance they will instantly aggro back if you remove sneak or invis, also FD has a chance to insta blur. Also mobs cant aggro something they cant see.

[Treats]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=678086&postcount=4

Yeah IDK.

I don't understand how an NPC would not reaggro unless the hate list is cleared.

Feign/Circlet must have worked differently than Feign/Sneak.

[Brocode]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=678086&postcount=4

here about the topic:

NPCs will only remove PCs from feign memory on successful blur rolls, pending update. As before, Invis/Sneak/Hide will still prevent re-aggro while they're up, but once they are broken the PC is fair game.

[Treats]

here about the topic:

I don't think it should be this way though.

Sneak shouldn't prevent reaggro.

I cannot remember ever seeing or using Sneak this way on Live in combination with Feign Death as a Monk.

Splitting NPCs were done by manipulating spawn point resets or multiple Monks.

[Brocode]

I don't think it should be this way though.

Sneak shouldn't prevent reaggro.

I cannot remember ever seeing or using Sneak this way on Live in combination with Feign Death as a Monk.

Splitting NPCs were done by manipulating spawn point resets or multiple Monks.

Well a good info on how Sneak work is http://web.archive.org/web/20040309233749/http://pub28.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm2.showMessage?topicID=5.top ic will try to highlight the pulling area, but you can read all about it in the link.


3) Agro pulling with Sneak. As previouisly mentioned, sneak reduces the argo range of mobs, this can be very helpful in splitting mobs using and agro pull, but this is one you need to know the pathing for, if the pathing takes a social mob right into another one your not going to see any benfit from it.

<b>4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.</b>
With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

Also (That would mean the sneak pulling previous nerf was correct?)


Sneak pulling 100% works. If the mob can't see you it can't agro, best demonstrated by rogues level 50+ since they have hide and can snake at a run speed.

If you want had visible proof sneak pullint works take a level 60 rogue with sow and have them pull a single named mob through the entire zone, the say the hooded Dhampyr from the fountin in MM to zone with only him being agro.

Canoing Verix for VP keys I would tag Verix (or the ph usually) and run past all his guards and end up at the group with only the single pull.

I would say at 60 a rogue has a better chance of pulling a single but no 'try again' button.


related to the topic (hes talking about what OP asks, that invis or sneak after fding mem blurs the mob)

Zenthan, I really like the idea in you post but I don't think it confirms a successful Mem'blur. Much as an inviso cast on someone FD doesn't remove them from the hate list. That one ( the inviso while FD to distance agro pull ) I have played around with and has been a great long distance pull method. ie argo roamer, have someone outside agro range inviso you, get up run and then drop inviso and mob is off like a shot after you ( with old world agro, Kunark and Veli agro has the lazy arse mob factor as I call it, things that are still agro'ed on you but won't waste the energy to beat on you unless you get back into a decent range where they don't have to run as far ).

Here this guys describes how it works


Here is how it works....

1) Pull mobs....
2) make sure you gain distance from the Mobs home point.
3) Feign Death
4) Hit SNEAK.. (yes you can do this while FD)....

What this immediatly does is reduces your Agro radius thereby giving you More room to work
with.

5) Wait for the mobs to leave. yes wait til the last one starts to walk off.
6) Then stand and move backwards... if you see both Mobs turn.. FD again... and Remain
Sneaking..

What you'll notice is about half the time the mob who was farther will immediatly turn and leave
while the closer one hovers over you (especially if you've clocked him)... When he does this and
the other guy is gone... Bring in the loner...

Again this also works for clearing agro... A mob forgets about you based on your proximity... if
you use Sneak while doing Pop N drops, you in effect put more distance between you and him...
thereby increasing your chance of a MEMORY Wipe...

While using Pop N drop techniques, combined with a Good Sneak skill. I've never,,, and I repeat
never had to do more than 6 Pop N Drops to get a Mem Wipe.... even on mobs in Sebilis,
Protectors of Zek, and Hate/Fear....

However if you fail an FD, you have to basically repeat the process.....

Patience is key, and some mobs can Hover a while.(like freaking 20 minutes in Hate) Sometimes
doing a /q is quicker. So this sin't the end all be all of clearing agro, but it's one very sweet way to
stay in game and achieve the desired results.


well theres another guide (http://web.archive.org/web/20031230065200/http://pub147.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm2.showMessage?topicID=1171. topic) that describes sneak pulling as


Sneak Pulling
This trick can give you an added faction bonus. If you get some NPCs with their backs facing you, you may be able to pull them with the same chance of chain agro as you would get had you pulled non KoS mobs. Yes, there is a chance others will chain agro, but the odds are lowered, and the conditions for the NPCs to chain will be higher. In places where the chain agro mobs are a lower level then you, this could work well. If one mob is facing you, you can pull off a sneak and proxy pull which could very well lead to an amazing split.

and


Splitting with Sneak. This has become a tactic of mine as I've been pulling with the assistance of pacify in a few spots. Pathing occasionally will cross a mob over it's neighbor anyways, making the pacify useless (agro range exists, just smaller, if a mob paths over a pacified mob it will agro).

This is for splitting 2 mobs standing next to each other, or at least facing the same direction. Get behind or to the side of the mobs and sneak (obviously). If you need to catch agro just run past them, FD, let them reset then sneak before standing. Once they are indifferent, circle around to the side of them. Which side you go to depends on a few things. Always pick the back mob if they are staggered and facing the same direction number one, and then always pick the higher lvl mob if they are on the same line. Now in the closer one's agro range but out of the farther one's, inch your way into LOS. The nearer one will actually catch you in LOS before the farther one just due to angles. When they finally see you, the center of agro will be on you via proxy agro, so you won't catch the far one's eye that way. ALSO, and more importantly... You will still con indifferent to the far one, even when the close mob paths right over them. Wait for the mob to path past them, then pull away. For slightly staggered mobs you can even be in the far one's agro range if you remain behind them during the initial agro. Just walk away from both of them staying out of the far one's LOS until the close one is to you then move. Do not stop sneaking until you are well clear of the agro, it slows you down a touch, but getting hit won't break sneak. Weird thing is, I've even fought something solo within agro range of a second just keeping sneak on through the fight... didn't get the add, not sure why it doesn't break (yes the mob I was fighting was still out of assist range though, assist range is smaller on drogmars I think I was fighting they were lt blue and green). Conned the one I thought would add during the fight and it was still indiff. May have been a freak occurance, who knows.


That said, sneak is pretty much working as inteded as those guys describes on those 2000-2002 posts

[Brocode]

and if not enough theres a good post about how rogues do it

http://web.archive.org/web/20040109123512/http://pub146.ezboard.com/fthesafehouselibraryreadonly.showMessage?topicID=1 08.topic

[Daldaen]

No it's not. This quote here shows why:

Here is how it works....

1) Pull mobs....
2) make sure you gain distance from the Mobs home point.
3) Feign Death
4) Hit SNEAK.. (yes you can do this while FD)....

What this immediatly does is reduces your Agro radius thereby giving you More room to work with.

5) Wait for the mobs to leave. yes wait til the last one starts to walk off.
6) Then stand and move backwards... if you see both Mobs turn.. FD again... and Remain Sneaking..

What you'll notice is about half the time the mob who was farther will immediatly turn and leave while the closer one hovers over you (especially if you've clocked him)... When he does this and the other guy is gone... Bring in the loner...

Again this also works for clearing agro... A mob forgets about you based on your proximity... if you use Sneak while doing Pop N drops, you in effect put more distance between you and him... thereby increasing your chance of a MEMORY Wipe...

While using Pop N drop techniques, combined with a Good Sneak skill. I've never,,, and I repeat never had to do more than 6 Pop N Drops to get a Mem Wipe.... even on mobs in Sebilis, Protectors of Zek, and Hate/Fear....

However if you fail an FD, you have to basically repeat the process.....

Patience is key, and some mobs can Hover a while.(like freaking 20 minutes in Hate) Sometimes doing a /q is quicker. So this sin't the end all be all of clearing agro, but it's one very sweet way to stay in game and achieve the desired results.

The Bolded section is the issue. On P99 it's 100% guaranteed that the mobs will NOT turn on you forcing a second FD.

Also it mentions the memory blur which I haven't experienced at all with Necro FD. There should be a progressive chance to men blur mobs. I haven't noticed any mob mem blur unless it's allowed to fully reset (in which case it's a 100%).

And the Sneak pulling with a weapon post you quote and question if it is correct, keep in mind that post was updated in 2002, and early 2002 they changed sneak to drop when you threw a projectile. Which he makes note of by saying "recent change to sneak".


So no. It doesn't work correctly on P99. Sneak shouldn't be 100% blur on mobs walking r away. The blur chance is a percentage that increases with successive sneaks (60% on first FD like 94% on 6th) and is irrelevant to sneak.

[Erati]

On P99 it's 100% guaranteed that the mobs will NOT turn on you forcing a second FD.


I will wait until you actually use FD here with your newly minted lvl 17 monk before you can say things like this!

Mobs def sometimes force you to use FD a second time....sometimes a third time...

[Daldaen]

I will wait until you actually use FD here with your newly minted lvl 17 monk before you can say things like this!

Mobs def sometimes force you to use FD a second time....sometimes a third time...

Not when you have sneak in and they have begun to path back.

[Brocode]

Not when you have sneak in and they have begun to path back.

What you describe is right Daldaen where that monk describes but it doesnt kill the hate list from mob, meaning if he hasnt full pathed to his spawn point theres a chance that once you remove sneak he will insta aggro, atleast this has happened to me, but as they say on the info its all about PROXIMITY if you are far enough, feels like a insta blur as they wont charge on you if you are far enough, meaning the hate list only counts if your still in aggro range maybe? Also on safehouse he describes that sneak negates any chain aggro as if the mobs call for help is ignored or shrinked as those cannot see you.

[Raev]

We don't need a massive bug discussion here; we already had one.

1. Sneak in this era should drop on ranged attack. It was changed in Luclin or PoP or so. It used to drop here, then it was changed to not drop based on Autumn Dawnfire's guide posted in 2000 . . . but edited in 2002. Daldaen made an excellent catch there, but we didn't change it back because we didn't have ranged weapon delay/collision. Now we do.

2. I think the necro post in that thread I linked is pretty good evidence that sneak/invis/hide should prevent reaggro. We can talk more about it, but what is clearly wrong is 'sneak/invis/hide perform a guaranteed blur'. That really needs to go.

[Colgate]

Also it mentions the memory blur which I haven't experienced at all with Necro FD. There should be a progressive chance to men blur mobs. I haven't noticed any mob mem blur unless it's allowed to fully reset (in which case it's a 100%).

i have seen a necro FD mem blur on mobs that were nowhere near their spawn point as recent as yesterday on red99

[Colgate]

I will wait until you actually use FD here with your newly minted lvl 17 monk before you can say things like this!

Mobs def sometimes force you to use FD a second time....sometimes a third time...

if you have a successful sneak, the only reason they would turn around at you again is because another mob social aggros them

sneak is a guaranteed memblur here

[Daldaen]

i have seen a necro FD mem blur on mobs that were nowhere near their spawn point as recent as yesterday on red99

Perhaps I had absolutely horrid luck. I was in Skyfire doing the Felia cycle on my Necro and I wen through the 10+ FDs with the mob being well out of aggro range and he never blurred. I'd need to mess around more.

And yea, what Raev said.

[Colgate]

weird, had a necro with aggro on all of VP sitting in hoshkar's lair standing and feigning over and over and part of his train of mobs eventually made their way back up to their spawn points

[nilbog]

1. Now that we have projectiles working (great work Haynar) can we get sneak dropping on ranged attack?

2. Somehow the sneak/invis clearing aggro patch got rolled back. Basically any time you stand up while indifferent you are guaranteed to blur.

When both of these are fixed pulling is going to be a lot more classic (not to mention balanced!) around here.

Should it drop when you attack, or when damage hits?

[Cecily]

Shouldn't break when you attack. Should when you're hit.

[Raev]

Should it drop when you attack, or when damage hits?

It should drop when you attack.

The thread is http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140809 and especially Daldaen's post which is like #5 or 6 on the first page.

[Treats]

It also should have no impact after Feign Death.

NPC's should come after you no matter if you have sneak on or not unless you have a successful blur roll.

[Colgate]

iirc the technique for sneak pulling was to throw ranged weapon and immediately hit sneak since the act of hitting attack breaks sneak, not damage applying

[Daldaen]

iirc the technique for sneak pulling was to throw ranged weapon and immediately hit sneak since the act of hitting attack breaks sneak, not damage applying

This is correct.

Also the reason why people thought it was a myth because people would use Shuriken not Javelins in classic and their short range gave a very short period of time with bad internet to hit the sneak key.

Also because a monk with Sneak will only successfully sneak part of the time. Also if you are attempting to do this pull right near mobs that would normally aggro you, throwing the projectile will break your sneak and possibly aggro the mobs due to broken sneak unless you can reapply it before they aggro.

[Brocode]

This is correct.

Also the reason why people thought it was a myth because people would use Shuriken not Javelins in classic and their short range gave a very short period of time with bad internet to hit the sneak key.

Also because a monk with Sneak will only successfully sneak part of the time. Also if you are attempting to do this pull right near mobs that would normally aggro you, throwing the projectile will break your sneak and possibly aggro the mobs due to broken sneak unless you can reapply it before they aggro.


Posts from early velious dont correlate with those affirmations. But if i am wrong, please do show me when they changed it.


Should it drop when you attack, or when damage hits?

should only drop when you are hit as its right now, they are wrong on these posts, if you research the links random answer from a post is


Loani
Monk
Posts: 35
(3/2/01 8:17 am)
I believe sneak pulling works. Here is the situation.

I am pulling the right courtyard in Karnor's Castle. It is a full spawn, but I am only interested in a skeleton because other mobs are green. I put sneak on, throw a javelin (range 205!) at the skellie from the courtyard archway, and back away (with sneak still on). The skellie follows the typical weird KC path, taking it past the courtyard door and other mobs.

I bring back a single pull.

Also rogues explaining it, they never say that sneak leaves once you throw, only hide (http://web.archive.org/web/20040109123512/http://pub146.ezboard.com/fthesafehouselibraryreadonly.showMessage?topicID=1 08.topic)


Zato
Head Safehouse Admin
(6/11/01 9:52 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

Their concern, OP, is about sneak mem blurring 100% of the time when you stand from FD in sneak or insta invis and mobs are not reaggroing, which i had experienced sometimes, but also didnt seem to work all the time. Its like invis ring of shadows or circlet once you put it on your safe, but usually once its off mob should still have you on some hatelist or clean if it was a succeful blur FD.

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1644096&postcount=6

Read this.

See how the patch note explicitly states sneak was changed to not drop when you hit. Also how the sneak guide was edited just before and makes note that a new way to sneak pull is available due to the recent changes to sneak. When described its exactly what you describe. You could hold sneak through throwing an item. But that's 2002. Aka never on this server.

The change was 5/8/2002 - http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html

[Raev]

Brocode, if you read the thread I linked above: there are about 50 quotes talking about sneak, and we even have patch notes stating sneak drops when the player attacks. I also read your quote 'with sneak still engaged' as 'you must keep sneak engage' i.e. click it again. Because it dropping would be common knowledge.

Treats, my suspicion is that when Verant added FD memory, they came up with some sort of hack based on the /consider function. Regardless, if you find some evidence for this would you mind making a separate thread? This thread is for two very important things that we know 100% are incorrect and have a huge impact on pulling at the moment.

[Brocode]

Thanks guys, re read most information and i do agree with you guys, point 1 is proven to break sneak once you do ranged. Also they mention sneak aggro pulling at somepoints instead of range aggroing.

Sorry if i mislead someone then. Nilbog Sneak should break on ranged attack and also if you guys are on it, there was a post about Ele that still wasnt in that you should be able to do quests and talk while in sneak even tho if your kos.

[Daldaen]

1. Now that we have projectiles working (great work Haynar) can we get sneak dropping on ranged attack?

2. Somehow the sneak/invis clearing aggro patch got rolled back. Basically any time you stand up while indifferent you are guaranteed to blur.

When both of these are fixed pulling is going to be a lot more classic (not to mention balanced!) around here.

Bump.

Need sneak to break when a ranged attack is initiated (it landing is irrelevant)

Also need mobs to not blur 100% of the time if you stand while indifferent.

[slappytwotoes]

Bump.

Need sneak to break when a ranged attack is initiated (it landing is irrelevant)

Also need mobs to not blur 100% of the time if you stand while indifferent.

The blurring part is 100% accurate and needs fixed (hopefully before velious).

Sneak should NOT break on ranged attack however, only when the thrown object connects. Using the delay of the object to hit the target was always a part of pulling with ranged items on live. I'm only relying on my memory here but contrary evidence looks circumstantial at best.

Regardless, item#1 is game changing for how monks split and makes pulling many difficult camps trivial (i.e. fungi king)

Item#2 won't make a significant impact either way, travel time of ranged objects adds less than a second but can make things slightly easier.

[Daldaen]

Sneak SHOULD break when you hit the Ranged Attack button.

That's why flight time mattered. You had to reactivate Sneak while the projectile was mid-flight and have Sneak active by the time it hits your target otherwise you pull everything.

[slappytwotoes]

Sneak SHOULD break when you hit the Ranged Attack button.

That's why flight time mattered. You had to reactivate Sneak while the projectile was mid-flight and have Sneak active by the time it hits your target otherwise you pull everything.

Here's the relevant part of the patch note from 5/8/2002:

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

This means that prior to this patch note, sneak broke when a character hit someone. You infer that to mean pressing 'Range Attack' means Sneak should drop. That's not how it reads. As worded by the patch notes, the object needs to travel and hit something, THEN Sneak drops.

I agree this is different from the way it is now and should be changed to be Classic. Currently you can jav something and until it runs up and hits you, Sneak is still active.

But according to the notes we're referring to, Sneak shouldn't drop when Range Attack is pressed. It should drop when the object connects with a target.

[Raev]

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

I think you are reading way too much into the word choices of someone who probably chose them for symmetry and not precision.

[Nightbear]

So SKs should be way better at pulling than they are right now, if CoS pulling ever gets fixed?

[Raev]

So SKs should be way better at pulling than they are right now, if CoS pulling ever gets fixed?

If you mean 'mobs not aggroing while indifferent' then I don't think that will ever be 'fixed'. I don't know if that was classic or not, but invis pulling trivialized this server.

SKs will be nerfed a bit if the CoS no longer blurs, but monks will probably be hit harder.

[Daldaen]

Bump. Sneak should break on ranged item thrown and standing when indifferent shouldn't instant memblur. The memblur after FD code could use some work.

[arsenalpow]

They need to make projectile collision more accurate if they want change sneak/fd yet again. The delay and flight path of projectiles is incredibly frustrating when trying to split things as is.

[Kinvalar]

This (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling) link seems to imply differently about ranged attack dropping Sneak.

Particularly this part: "If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you."

It doesn't state anything in there about having to quickly apply a new sneak after firing. Posted 6/11/01, updated same day a few hours later.

[Man0warr]

Yeah all the Safehouse posts from the day back up being able to throw shit and sneak not breaking.