Dragon Roar

[Colgate]

dragon roar on velious mobs seems waaay overtuned atm, resist rate at 255 MR seems to be about 35%-50%, and when it does land(majority of the time) it lands for an unreasonable amount of time, upwards of 20 seconds

feels like every time i fight klandicar, sontalak, and zlandicar i may as well be typing /random 100

[Ele]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205123&highlight=fear

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202471&highlight=fear

[Daldaen]

I agree with this.

The base resist rate seems about typical, its the duration which seems not correct:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SQtViIp00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9opZFThy95w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzAutiwi_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YBEqvc01ZE

When watching each of these videos you will see that about 50% of the raid eats a fear each time it casts. Of those 50%, the vast majority are un-feared after 6 seconds and everyone is un-feared after 10 seconds.

No one is getting 15-20 second fears, let alone seeing 10-20 raiders having such long duration fears.

[Colgate]

yeah, the whole raid ate a fear on a zlandicar attempt on several occasions today, and around 20-25 people would end up all the way in the entropy serpent pond before their fear broke

[Daldaen]

yeah, the whole raid ate a fear on a zlandicar attempt on several occasions today, and around 20-25 people would end up all the way in the entropy serpent pond before their fear broke

We had this issue on beta as well.

[Daldaen]

Bump. This is still very broken.

Look at the videos provided. See how every fear a decent number get feared (50% is safe), this part is working classicly.

But what isn't working properly is the duration. Most of the fears seen in those classic videos are 0-5seconds. Very rarely a few people will eat a 5-10second fear. Almost no one eats 10-20second fears.

However on P99, people are regularly eating 20second fears with 255 MR. This is wrong. On harder dragons it basically forces you to stack number and Zerg out dragons because you are having to accept half your raid being permanently feared.

That should not be the case. Please review the code for early breaks on fears. No one with 255 MR should be hitting max duration fears, just like no one is full duration rooting level 60 mobs, early breaks should be happening.

[brecon]

I'm afraid this effected old-world dragons too. Had some decently geared 60s (MR>150) taking repeated fears from Ragefire last week, which I'd never seen before.

[Colgate]

had a 23 second fear last night with 220 MR against sontalak

it was real dumb

just seems like the frequency at which NPCs land spells on you is way too high

sub-60 giant casters in kael arena were landing immobilize on me on every single cast when i had around 175 MR

turmoil toads landing panic on you in plane of fear even at 255 MR all the time

etc.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

This is still dumb.

Zlandicar, Klandicar and Sontalak are far more difficult than they should be due to this. They should be challenging, but there is no reason level 60 players with 150-255 MR should be eating 20second fears.

View all the videos I posted above. They show no scenarios of 20second fears. Very few of 10 second fears. Most everyone is unfeared after a single tick. And these guys aren't all stacking to 255 MR and I'm sure they have a few non-60s mixed in.

[arsenalpow]

Agreed. You can circumvent the absurd overtuning by bringing 17 level 60 rogues as Rampage has done to kill Sont but that's by no means classic. It was ridiculous in beta and it still feels completely incorrect.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

The Zlandicar, Klandicar, Sontalak and Wuoshi fears right now are just ridiculous. The videos provided from 2001 era kills show players in their typical Velious armor (not stacking MR to 255) eating fears at a reasonable rate but they ALL break early. Most are broken within the first 6 seconds.

[khanable]

Currently, this broken mechanic makes outdoor dragons zerg encounters. There is no strategy to fight 20 second fear.

Yes there is

But should probably 10s max

[XiakenjaTZ]

While bark potions are a solution I think we can all agree that the fear is broken right now on these dragons.

[Shiftin]

Echoing this. Feared most of the klandicar fight as a 255 MR rogue is nonsense. I fought klandicar during velious on live more times than i can count. Fear was never this kind of issue.

[khanable]

Do you mean send 90 Rampage at a target? Or is this another pretentious khanable psot?

Critical thought hard.

[khanable]

You somehow think Bark potions are an appropriate response to 20 second dragon roars? No one cares that you send 90 guildmembers to kill a mob people killed with 36 on Live.

It's not even about bark pots. We've stopped using them.

It's about aggro control.

Fix issues because they're classic, not because you can't come up with a way to overcome an issue.

And I don't think I've seen us break 70 since launch for anything except the big dick ntov mobs. We're doing morning spawn zland with mid 30s. Kland with 40.

Keep saying the only way to win is to Zerg because your Zerg can't hack it.

[Coffee]

how is dragon fear "about aggro control" ?

[khanable]

You mean fix outdoor dragon's dragon roar because 20 second fear every time is not classic?

Yep.

and not because the bda-taken 100 person sont zerg couldn't figure out how to not get rekt and want to cry about how they're only kill able by zerging.

[Coffee]

Yep.

and not because the bda-taken 100 person sont zerg couldn't figure out how to not get rekt and want to cry about how they're only kill able by zerging.

what you are doing is trolling a bug discussion on dragon roar

you are not providing any productive information other than "nani nani boo boo other competing guild nani nani boo"

this is a waste of time

[Erati]

Yep.

and not because the bda-taken 100 person sont zerg couldn't figure out how to not get rekt and want to cry about how they're only kill able by zerging.

hey now - we got him to 50% by throwing bodies at him - I dont see any BDA/Taken here QQing that he was too hard pls change due to our fail- be nice :P

Dragon Roar in general has been bugged on Velious mobs esp for a while - see Dald's Zland write up after we spent 4 hours down there eating fears that took u to the Vilefang waterfall

there is none of that in any videos from classic and most the time people are not even being super neckbeard efficient to get those kills they have on display - here you have to be among the upper 5% in terms of gearing and company to kill these mobs regular guilds with sub 60 raiders were killing 15 years ago

[Coffee]

does fear have a looping resist check to drop off? similar to how root does?

on red pvp, for example, if you root someone, it is checking the resist every tick, and I believe it has a higher chance to drop on every following check

damage increases the chance that the root will break

can/does/should something like this exist on fears?

[Daldaen]

Aggro control is cool, but having all 3 of your warriors eat 20second fears when they're grouped with a bard and all sitting at 255MR isn't classic.

Thats what needs to be fixed.

For fucks sake, the cleric in the Sontalak video uses group CH to heal his group and everyone is in range for the heal.

On this server that shit would not happen ever due to the fears. His fear is spread by 36seconds, when people are feared for 20 and running back for 10, it makes killing him without swapping 40% of your raid for level 60 Rogue/Wizard alts impossible.

[khanable]

hey now - we got him to 50% by throwing bodies at him - I dont see any BDA/Taken here QQing that he was too hard pls change due to our fail- be nice :P

Dragon Roar in general has been bugged on Velious mobs esp for a while - see Dald's Zland write up after we spent 4 hours down there eating fears that took u to the Vilefang waterfall

there is none of that in any videos from classic and most the time people are not even being super neckbeard efficient to get those kills they have on display - here you have to be among the upper 5% in terms of gearing and company to kill these mobs regular guilds with sub 60 raiders were killing 15 years ago

zland is fucked beyond just dragon roar.

Fears, as they land now, almost seem like they were forgotten in the great 255 cap fix. Almost as if we're capped at 255 but they're still scaling to 500 or whatever the client was capped at last time. What we see now is exactly what I would expect with mid 200's MR on the old system.

[Nirgon]

I'm told the bark pots do prevent you from moving but you are feared in place.

The correct logic should be the fear does not do that since you are rooted. This is seen vs NPCs as you cannot root an NPC, fear it and beat it to death without it fighting back. It should be the same on players.

Not sure if Zlandi rot should overwrite bark pot needs research.

Bless u all.

[Daldaen]

zland is fucked beyond just dragon roar.

Fears, as they land now, almost seem like they were forgotten in the great 255 cap fix. Almost as if we're capped at 255 but they're still scaling to 500 or whatever the client was capped at last time. What we see now is exactly what I would expect with mid 200's MR on the old system.

I completely agree and I suspect that is at a root of the problem.

I'm guessing these Dragon Roars from Velious (which have a -150 Mr check) are broken and using the old 500 MR system to check for early breaks. Which is why so many with maxed MR are eating full duration fears.

I've made bug reports on beta and since about Zlandicar being broken with stun breath, no Necro spells and this issue. However Zlandicar is still AEing an entire raid with his 900 DD when it shouldn't.

[Colgate]

And I don't think I've seen us break 70 since launch for anything except the big dick ntov mobs. We're doing morning spawn zland with mid 30s. Kland with 40.

i'm being told by a current rampage member that there isn't a single zlandicar kill on your DKP site that's under 73 players

pls stop trolling bug reports

[Haynar]

Can I just say fuuuuuuu..

Anyways. Trying to figure this out. Not sure where its going wrong in the code. Spent 2 hrs already on it tonight.

H

[Colgate]

pras

i think the rate at which PCs resist NPC spells is just set too low in general

fear is just the one we notice the most

[Haynar]

One thing I saw, was the duration was rounding up. So for example, my test had 20% to land for full. 20% chance to resist completely. For a 3 tick spell, a rand over remaining, less than 1/3 should drop right away. 1/3 should last 1 tick. And 1/3 for 2. But it rounded up. So all partials got an extra tick. So effectively 40% lasted for full. And all partials had an extra tick.

I will try to iron out rest later. But thats a start.

H

[Daldaen]

That would definitely explain some of why it is such a pain to fight fear dragons on this server.

I look forward to any changes that come of this, thanks Haynar!

[khanable]

One thing I saw, was the duration was rounding up. So for example, my test had 20% to land for full. 20% chance to resist completely. For a 3 tick spell, a rand over remaining, less than 1/3 should drop right away. 1/3 should last 1 tick. And 1/3 for 2. But it rounded up. So all partials got an extra tick. So effectively 40% lasted for full. And all partials had an extra tick.

I will try to iron out rest later. But thats a start.

H

So a full fear is supposed to be 3 ticks - was the last 20% doing something odd?

Didn't we have some logs here somewhere of people taking 20,21,22 second fears?

With the changes is this how it will be:

20% full resist
20% drop immediately
20% 1 tick
20% 2 tick
20% 3 tick

At level 60 with 255mr?

If all partials were 1 tick more, then no one would drop fear immediately, ya? I'd have to look at logs when home but I'm pretty sure I've had instant drop fears.

[Freakish]

Think about it this way. You get feared, 2 seconds later the server does its "tick" check. You are "instantly" unfeared.

If you've ever played a dot class and seen your dot tick as soon as it lands you'll understand.

[khanable]

Think about it this way. You get feared, 2 seconds later the server does its "tick" check. You are "instantly" unfeared.

If you've ever played a dot class and seen your dot tick as soon as it lands you'll understand.

It's early. Makes sense. Thanks.

Still not sure about the 20/20/20/20/20 thing - still seems a tad high.

[Daldaen]

I agree the 20/20/20/20/20 spread doesn't seem right exactly.

Based on the videos, let's just assume everyone is 60 and 255 MR (this is likely not the case for classic).

You are seeing probably 50-60% of the raid completely resist the fears based on who runs around afterwards.

A solid 25% are unfeared after about 0-6 seconds.

Another 10% are unfeared after about 7-12 seconds.

Maybe 5% are unfeared after 13-18 seconds.

The top end of the fearing duration should be very small and likely is only affecting low levels and non-MR capped people in those videos.

[Haynar]

The 20 spread was an example and not real numbers. Its not what i see for dragon roar. Still working on that. It was just to illustrate one of the problems.

H

[Daldaen]

Ah I understand! Thanks for clarifying!

[Colgate]

god bless u haynar

[Daldaen]

Also something worth looking into. There are 2 different dragon roar spells:

ID - 981 - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=981&source=Live
ID - 789 - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Live

981 has no resist check. 789 has a -150 MR check on it. (Yes I know 789 is called Dragon Fear, but it was renamed from Dragon Roar in 2007)

Kunark dragons should have the Dragon Fear with the -150 MR check (ID 789). Naggy/Vox/Velious dragons should have the Dragon Roar with no resist check (ID 981). This can be confirmed on Live by fighting each mob and seeing whether you resist Dragon Fear (ID 789) or Dragon Roar (ID 981). Torven posted some logs on TAKProject confirming this:

[Tue Sep 23 18:11:57 2014] Zlandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Sep 20 08:01:00 2014] Klandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Tue Sep 16 03:36:55 2014] Sontalak begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>

[Sun Jul 19 22:11:05 2015] Gorenaire begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Mon Mar 23 02:26:19 2015] Talendor begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Wed Mar 25 02:42:33 2015] Severilous begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>

I strongly suspect the Velious mobs are incorrectly using 789 when they should be using 981.

2001 SPdat info:
ID - 789:

Dragon Roar
Dragon Resistance - (This is -150 MR check in old spell data)
Fear


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area Effect Range: 300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: Point Blank AoE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: 3 ticks (18 seconds)
Duration Formula: 7
Recast Delay: 36.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When someone casts: Soandso lets loose a mighty roar.
Spell cast on you: You flee in terror.
Spell fades: You are no longer afraid.

ID - 981:

Dragon Roar
Fear between 1 and 400 levels


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Area Effect Range: 300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Instantaneous
Allowable Targets: Point Blank AoE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: 3 ticks (18 seconds)
Duration Formula: 7
Recast Delay: 36.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When someone casts: Soandso lets loose a mighty roar.
Spell cast on you: You flee in terror.
Spell fades: You are no longer afraid.

In summary:

Can a dev confirm that Sontalak, Zlandicar, and Klandicar are using Dragon Roar ID 981 and NOT 789?

[Colgate]

dayum

goog find

[Daldaen]

Bump, I think I'm onto something.

[Haynar]

One of those on eqlive now has a max resist of 150 if i remember. Which means only 150 of your mr will go towards resisting, even if its 255.

Can look further, but not sure what needs adjusted.

H

[Daldaen]

Yea, I am just wondering right now if the Velious dragons are casting the wrong version of Dragon Roar. They should be casting the easy to resist version.

[Raev]

Kunark dragons should have the Dragon Fear with the -150 MR check (ID 789). Naggy/Vox/Velious dragons should have the Dragon Roar with no resist check (ID 981).

That's quite interesting, actually. And it's very reasonable: Nagafen and Vox have a 5 level advantage on classic capped PCs, so they wouldn't have needed a huge resist mod (on P1999 everyone has their L52 alt, so it wasn't quite so bad). The Kunark dragons are even cons so they need a bit of help, and then in Velious the dragons leveled up again relative to the players, so they went back to normal.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

Can a Dev confirm the Velious Dragons are using the proper Dragon Roar AE? (ID=981). It should have no Lure/-150 Resist check built in.

[Victorio]

Posts from a year ago about Dragon roar on the beta.
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1524651&postcount=6

If you visit the thread, I follow up with fear resist numbers from videos.

[Daldaen]

Bump - I agree with the above poster. Lots of evidence agrees that Velious mobs should cast the fear WITHOUT the -150 MR check and Kunark Dragons should use the -150 MR check fear.

Can a decent confirm these dragons are using their proper versions.

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Daldaen]

Bump.

[Daldaen]

Bump. Any chance someone can look into whether the Velious dragons are using the correct version of Dragon Roar?

[Daldaen]

Bump. Any chance someone can look into whether the Velious dragons are using the correct version of Dragon Roar?

[arsenalpow]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSMxRya2S8

[Erati]

The fact that the best chance at keeping a Velious outdoor dragon in one place is to figure out how to root tanks probably means that Fear is over tuned when all these tanks we are talking about are sitting at 255 RM

[Daldaen]

Already on the 2nd page. That just won't do!

[Alunova]

Also something worth looking into. There are 2 different dragon roar spells:

ID - 981 - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=981&source=Live
ID - 789 - http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=789&source=Live

981 has no resist check. 789 has a -150 MR check on it. (Yes I know 789 is called Dragon Fear, but it was renamed from Dragon Roar in 2007)

Kunark dragons should have the Dragon Fear with the -150 MR check (ID 789). Naggy/Vox/Velious dragons should have the Dragon Roar with no resist check (ID 981). This can be confirmed on Live by fighting each mob and seeing whether you resist Dragon Fear (ID 789) or Dragon Roar (ID 981). Torven posted some logs on TAKProject confirming this:



I strongly suspect the Velious mobs are incorrectly using 789 when they should be using 981.

2001 SPdat info:
ID - 789:



ID - 981:



In summary:

Can a dev confirm that Sontalak, Zlandicar, and Klandicar are using Dragon Roar ID 981 and NOT 789?

I have not been able to find proof that the Velious dragons should use the 0 check fear.

It's hard to find links to which ones NPC's used, but these are the ones I could find that go back close to that time period:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060617095726/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=981

Shows only Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen use the 0 check Fear (981). This never changes even up to 2012

Spell (789) with the -150 check is attached to all Kunark and Velious dragons, including Zlandicar when he is finally listed

https://web.archive.org/web/20030506124225/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=789

https://web.archive.org/web/20031229060851/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=789

https://web.archive.org/web/20050508185856/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=789

[Daldaen]

The reason I believe they used the 0 check is because that's what they use on live. As I mentioned in the quote from Torven's logs. It shows the Kunark Dragons using the -150 and Velious Dragons using 0.

Also, it would be explained by what Raev said.

Kunark Dragons are level 60, same as max level and therefore need the check to ensure it isn't too easily resisted.

Velious Dragons are 70, 10 levels above max meaning they don't need the extra -150 check as the level differential should make up for that difference.

Also the videos posted show players getting feared about 50% of the time, most ending within the first 6 seconds. Almost no one has a fear going beyond 12 seconds.

I'd have a tough time agreeing with the spells attributed on Allakhazam as the hard evidence primarily because these spells are identical other than their resist check, at least they were back in-era. It wasn't until 2006 they were named different things, allowing for you to differentiate between the two versions. I'm not sure how you could definitively attribute one affect or the other to individual NPCs before that change without seeing the database, which Allakhazam isn't based on, it was all based on user input sort of like a wiki.

It's that naming change that allows us to, on live, see which version they each use currently. And right now the Classic/Velious Dragons use the 0 check and the Kunark Dragons use the -150.

[Alunova]

Those logs are from 2014 on P99 beta? Unless I am seeing something else?

What hard evidence?

You must be watching a different video because I see 80% of the players get feared in some of these

[Daldaen]

[Tue Sep 23 18:11:57 2014] Zlandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Sep 20 08:01:00 2014] Klandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Tue Sep 16 03:36:55 2014] Sontalak begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>

[Sun Jul 19 22:11:05 2015] Gorenaire begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Mon Mar 23 02:26:19 2015] Talendor begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Wed Mar 25 02:42:33 2015] Severilous begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>

The logs are from live. Where it shows them casting the different versions. You're actually able to see they are different because of the 2007 change that renamed one of them Dragon Fear.

I was saying the links you provided from Allakhazam way backs, weren't the best to go by because the two spells were identical other than the resist check.

So someone who was submitting info to Allakhazam, would see the exact same resist message, name of debuff in their buff window, same landing message, etc. A normal player back then couldn't determine which version was used by which mob.

IE they would check their logs from a Wuoshi fight, see "You resisted Dragon Roar" and submit that to Allakhazam. The database guys there wouldn't know whether Wuoshi was using the -150 or 0 resist check version so they just said this dragon casts this version arbitrarily.

[Alunova]

The logs are from live. Where it shows them casting the different versions. You're actually able to see they are different because of the 2007 change that renamed one of them Dragon Fear.

I was saying the links you provided from Allakhazam way backs, weren't the best to go by because the two spells were identical other than the resist check.

So someone who was submitting info to Allakhazam, would see the exact same resist message, name of debuff in their buff window, same landing message, etc. A normal player back then couldn't determine which version was used by which mob.

IE they would check their logs from a Wuoshi fight, see "You resisted Dragon Roar" and submit that to Allakhazam. The database guys there wouldn't know whether Wuoshi was using the -150 or 0 resist check version so they just said this dragon casts this version arbitrarily.

You don't think that would have been corrected by now though? Still to this day they list 789 for Zlandicar:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=789#NPCs_with_Ability

I'll see if I can verify this

[Daldaen]

Well, again, it's player input. There are bound to be some inconsistencies. For example, on Allakhazam Gorenaire is only shown as using her Cold AE and CH. She has no Dragon Fear attributed to her. Severilous likewise isn't shown as casting a Fear on Allakhazam. Just to mention two similar circumstances of incorrect information on Allakhazam persisting to today.

After 2007 when it was easier to determine the few people killing these mobs likely were level 70-75 and had 300-500~ resists unbuffed. At that point no one would notice or care about the fear.

All I can tell you is from Torven's logs and from my own (The Zlandicar ones are posted showiing the 0 check, and I have some Sont and Kland I think) I can confirm that on live right now the Velious Dragons are using the 0 check fear.

I also found this post (though 2003):

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showpost.php?p=168760&postcount=10

Quote:
Originally posted by Tynne
The fear is -150 magic resist
Im not so sure. I went ahead and checked Lucy for Dragon Roar and found 2 of them - http://lucy.fnord.net/spelllist.html...xt=dragon+roar

I think Kland's is the one without the -150 adjustment. His fear barely ever hit me with ~200 MR. But when we did Gorenaire just like 3 months ago, most of her fears hit me, with ~250 MR. I think the kunark dragons have the -150 adjustment one

[arsenalpow]

As currently constructed on p99 (with the -150 fear) Velious dragons that fear require an almost ludicrous amount of raid redundancy. On live from that era there's numerous examples of normal guilds killing Zlandicar, Klandicar, and Sont. Right now only Rampage can consistently kill those targets (on blue) and its requiring something like 30-40 max resist DPS classes to even have a chance and getting them dead. Velious Dragons that fear shouldn't be bleeding edge content but right now they are.

I know that's all anecdotal, but as a level 60 DPS with 255 MR I shouldn't be feared 80% of the time for nearly max duration each time. The -150 resist check fear for Kunark Dragons that are lower level, and the 0 resist check fear for Velious Dragons that are higher level makes perfect sense and explains the current difficultly level of the content.

Thanks for looking into it Alunova.

[Nirgon]

Klandi and Sonti feared people

A lot

(Even with bards)

[Daldaen]

Oh look, another Nirgon post with no evidence just assertions.

Please watch the videos of Velious geared raids fighting these Dragons in normal, HP/Mana gear. Then watch a P99 raid where people are whoring out to 255 MR unbuffed, see how many get feared and more importantly for how long everyone is staying feared.

Maybe some fears saw the majority feared. Maybe some saw less than half. But almost every single person is un-feared within the first two ticks. That doesn't happen here.

[Daldaen]

[Sun Oct 04 15:41:02 2015] You flee in terror.
[Sun Oct 04 15:41:21 2015] You are no longer afraid. (19 seconds)
[Sun Oct 04 15:41:38 2015] You flee in terror.
[Sun Oct 04 15:41:57 2015] You are no longer afraid. (19 seconds)
[Sun Oct 04 15:42:15 2015] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!
[Sun Oct 04 15:42:51 2015] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!
[Sun Oct 04 15:43:28 2015] You flee in terror.
[Sun Oct 04 15:43:28 2015] You are no longer afraid. (insta break)
[Sun Oct 04 15:44:04 2015] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!
[Sun Oct 04 15:44:40 2015] You flee in terror.
[Sun Oct 04 15:44:58 2015] You are no longer afraid. (18 seconds)

255 MR, level 60 vs. Wuoshi

The resist/hit rate isn't that much of a problem. Its the fact that of the 4 hits, 1 broke instantly and 3 were full duration fears. There seems to be no inbetween a full resist or a 20 second fear. This isn't atypical either. A sizeable portion of our raiders were eating full duration fears with 255 MR.

Then go watch those classic videos, count how many times you see someone still feared after 12 seconds, and how many stay feared for the full 18-24 seconds. Very few are feared after 12 seconds and almost no one is going full durations. There are bound to be some under-geared, non-60, non-255 MR people in those videos. Even they aren't eating these 20 second P99 fears.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

[Rejji]

Did wuoshi yesterday with 240ish Mr was feared almost entire fight (and stunned )

[Daldaen]

Bump.

[isiah]

I do think Dragon Roar needs corrected a bit, but I think people are being a bit dramatic on how hard fear dragons are in Velious. At some point, you may need to realize your members aren't properly prepared for such encounters. If you lose to sont with 120 people, then that's a strategy issue, not a fear issue.

Zland can be done with 30 people.

Klandicar can be done with 35-40 easy. Flawless in fact.

Same with sont - Easily done with 55-60 people. We've done it with less.


As someone stated, raid guilds may want to reconsider strategies instead of pointing fingers at dragon roar OP.

[Freakish]

Max fears with 255MR on klandicar. Ate a lot of them. I think they're landing for max too often.

[arsenalpow]

Max fears with 255MR on klandicar. Ate a lot of them. I think they're landing for max too often.

Even Wuoshi at 255mr was a couple max duration fears. My experience with Sont was a bunch of max duration fears for nearly the entire fight at 255MR. If you're forced to contort your raid force by logging off buff classes and onto rogues so you have enough redundant DPS to win the fight through the broken fear then something is definitely wrong.

Raid forces are way more advanced due to 4 years of Kunark, and back on live Velious was being conquered with way less level 60s in way worse gear so it's expected for those encounters to be harder when your raid force isn't as seasoned. That is not even comparable to the average p99 raid guild. The content should be challenging for sure but it's way beyond that based on my experience with it.

Yes, you can kill the content with the right class mixture and the right strats, but is that mixture realistic when one guild is fielding an entire alt force of rogues (which was never the case on live) or when 3 seasoned guilds combine forces to make an attempt and still sometimes wipe. To me that reeks of unclassic tuning.

[isiah]

6 -8 rogues is not an alt force, which is what we had for Zland and Kland low number kills. In fact, they were all mains.

I just think guilds could prepare a bit better and work on their class composition for raids. It would go a long way.

[Daldaen]

I don't disagree, rogues > shamans/enchanters/Druids on raids.

That aside - This thread is in the bug forum and therefore about classic.

The evidence supports that the dragons use a no-resist check fear, which was a result should lead to more partial duration fears. Which is more classic than what we have currently where 255 MR players are being feared for 20 seconds.

[Man0warr]

6 -8 rogues is not an alt force, which is what we had for Zland and Kland low number kills. In fact, they were all mains.


I mean we have seen Rampage with literally 15 rogues for a Sont kill. Lots of them were alts. Nothing wrong with that, Rampage has people with the mindset and time to have alts to field the perfect raid force for untuned encounters.

But most of the other guilds don't. It doesn't matter though, the fearing dragons are overtuned compared to classic Velious and that's why they should be fixed, no other reason.

[isiah]

I may be wrong, but didn't devs state that they were gonna beef up encounters a bit from classic since Kunark was out so long?

[arsenalpow]

I may be wrong, but didn't devs state that they were gonna beef up encounters a bit from classic since Kunark was out so long?

No. Classic encounters has always been the goal when it can be accomplished. There's minor stuff they can't implement due to the Titanium client like removing item linking, or Xenovorash spawning on the edge of the lake instead of the platform in the lake (it's buggy) but raid encounters were always supposed to be as classic as possible.

[Seltius]

They did say they were tweaking some encounters due to that Isiah. I believe there were a couple ToV encounters specifically mentioned.

If you have proof that the encounters are tuned incorrectly then post it but comments on Rampage or other guilds raid makeup or how they do encounters is not productive here. Please stick to posting facts in the bug forums.

[arsenalpow]

They did say they were tweaking some encounters due to that Isiah. I believe there were a couple ToV encounters specifically mentioned.

If you have proof that the encounters are tuned incorrectly then post it but comments on Rampage or other guilds raid makeup or how they do encounters is not productive here. Please stick to posting facts in the bug forums.

Did you actually read the thread? Daldaen has some pretty convincing data.

Additionally it is highly relevant that the bleeding edge content raid guild is jumping through some pretty big hoops to mitigate the dragon fear. That needs to be indentified. Like I've said before a p99 raider is much more well prepared than a live player was going into Velious due to Kunark last 5 times longer than it should. Even mid range raid guilds should be at least be clubbing Klan and Zlan with relative ease and Sont should only be moderately more difficult due to the dispel.

[isiah]

They did say they were tweaking some encounters due to that Isiah. I believe there were a couple ToV encounters specifically mentioned.

If you have proof that the encounters are tuned incorrectly then post it but comments on Rampage or other guilds raid makeup or how they do encounters is not productive here. Please stick to posting facts in the bug forums.

Yeah, I'm not gonna dig around for the thread or info, but I'm almost positive they turned up certain encounters in ToV, vyemm for example, due to kunark being out so long etc.


But yeah, Fear is still funky on the dragons in some way as others have said, which isn't anything to do with the tweaking of the merb, but just the Dragon Roar mechanic itself.

[Seltius]

Did you actually read the thread? Daldaen has some pretty convincing data.

Additionally it is highly relevant that the bleeding edge content raid guild is jumping through some pretty big hoops to mitigate the dragon fear. That needs to be indentified. Like I've said before a p99 raider is much more well prepared than a live player was going into Velious due to Kunark last 5 times longer than it should. Even mid range raid guilds should be at least be clubbing Klan and Zlan with relative ease and Sont should only be moderately more difficult due to the dispel.

I read it I cannot open the videos here. I directed my above post at those who turned to attacking a guild or other players on a bug thread. Post data like Daldaen did otherwise it isn't constructive.

If you are unhappy that everyone on the server isn't able to kill all content then maybe take that to RNF or if constructive server chat. I for one appreciate the fact they aren't allowing the 4yrs of Kunark to trivialize the content of Velious.

That said I do agree that the dragon fear lands too often and lasts too long when it does. Then again it has been 15 years so I cant remember how often I resisted some dragons on live. But part of that could also be the way the server syncs up.

[slappytwotoes]

Man this seems like a simple fix with lots of great evidence.

Was an issue since beta, why hasn't this been resolved yet? #tinfoilhat

[Daldaen]

Bump. Can any dev confirm the incorrect ID Dragon Roar is being used by P99 Velious Dragons with the -150 check causing it to be more difficult to resist and more likely to last its full duration?

[Victorio]

Bump

[sonicjoose]

bump

[nyclin]

bump

[Slathar]

This is classic feature. This is how it functioned on Fennin Ro in 2001.

[Daldaen]

Oh look more Nirgon style posts of someone's memory back 14 years ago with no evidence... How useful.

[Slathar]

Oh look more Nirgon style posts of someone's memory back 14 years ago with no evidence... How useful.

Reported.

[Victorio]

Bump

[Daldaen]

Bump. Can any dev confirm the incorrect ID Dragon Roar is being used by P99 Velious Dragons with the -150 check causing it to be more difficult to resist and more likely to last its full duration?

[Sirken]

bump

[Telin]

Looking into this.

[Man0warr]

It's not just Dragon Roar, but definitely the worst case. All the dragons in VP have resist mods on their AEs and shouldn't - same for Zlandicar's Stun Breath, etc.

Sontalak shouldn't be the hardest raid mob in Velious.

[Ele]

It's not just Dragon Roar, but definitely the worst case. All the dragons in VP have resist mods on their AEs and shouldn't - same for Zlandicar's Stun Breath, etc.

Sontalak shouldn't be the hardest raid mob in Velious.

He should be top 3. Vyemm and Aary were much harder on live due to a bug in the client receiving detrimental effects if spell effects weren't filtered (i.e., Vyemm knockback or Aary's "fake" mana drain even if behind wall). Turning on your filters (what was sent from server, not just what showed up in chat box) fixed the AEs while behind cover.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10911

[Daldaen]

Well....

AoW and Tunare should crush all 3 of those encounters in terms of difficulty.

Sontalak specifically though, his AE is way off. For some reason a change was made to make his AE more frequent rather than his single target proc on the tank.

The Zlandicar AE is another issue with this. NPCs who have procs that are flagged as AE effects, during classic would only function as single target effects if they were triggered like procs.

[Thordoff]

He should be top 3. Vyemm and Aary were much harder on live due to a bug in the client receiving detrimental effects if spell effects weren't filtered (i.e., Vyemm knockback or Aary's "fake" mana drain even if behind wall). Turning on your filters (what was sent from server, not just what showed up in chat box) fixed the AEs while behind cover.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10911

And Vulak should also be casting Gate?!

Vulak'Aerr was probably the most fun fight I have had ever. 24 min battle with very few deaths, but a lot of agro control problems and laughs out of it as epic eqiupped paladins traded agro, and everyone kept yelling to let them die. We finally got it settled down and agro set on our main tank who used his deffensive disc 2x. Once Vulak was slowed, 3 of us were able to rotate CH every 12-14 seconds for the duration with necros feeding us. Scary was when he tried to gate several times when he got below 10% health. 10% of Vulak's hp is a LOT of hp when all your melees are 70% slowed and you only have one DB casting wizard and one enchanter to mana tap him...

Also, based on these comments regarding melee being slowed, I believe the Vulak AoE should not have disease counters. While our recent patch notes say that the AoE now has magic based resist checks, you can still cure it with Abolish Disease. Seems like it should be magic based resist check + magic counters.

[Man0warr]

The Zlandicar AE is another issue with this. NPCs who have procs that are flagged as AE effects, during classic would only function as single target effects if they were triggered like procs.

Yep, Stun Breath should be a single target as it's a proc on Zlandikar (but not on Phara Dar). I don't know how they coded that and it doesn't show up in Lucy but any classic posts/raid guides you can find on Zlandicar ONLY the tank is mentioned to have to worry about Stun Breath.

Same goes for that Grav Flux proc from some of the dragons in WW (Cargalia, Von, Sapara's).

[Ele]

And Vulak should also be casting Gate?!

to the research mobile


Also, based on these comments regarding melee being slowed, I believe the Vulak AoE should not have disease counters. While our recent patch notes say that the AoE now has magic based resist checks, you can still cure it with Abolish Disease. Seems like it should be magic based resist check + magic counters.

That's strange.

[-Catherin-]

Well....

AoW and Tunare should crush all 3 of those encounters in terms of difficulty.

Sontalak specifically though, his AE is way off. For some reason a change was made to make his AE more frequent rather than his single target proc on the tank.

The Zlandicar AE is another issue with this. NPCs who have procs that are flagged as AE effects, during classic would only function as single target effects if they were triggered like procs.

Sontalak is never killed anymore.

On a server dominated by neckbeards that typically do not let a target of this level remain in it's natural habitat for longer than the time it takes to cast a CoH.

Say what you want about the fear and other AEs but this fact alone should be enough evidence that Sontalak is overtuned to the point of redonkulous. :p

[-Catherin-]

That's strange.

ZAM still shows it with disease counters but i couldnt find anything about whether the actual resist check is magic or not.

It wouldnt be the first case of a spell that had a different resist check and different counter though. I believe the Tash line is considered an unresistable magic type spell but it has a poison counter.

[Erati]

Tash is cured with poison for some reason but is a magic based spell ( even tho unresistable )

so yes thats about the only other similar example

[Ele]

ZAM still shows it with disease counters but i couldnt find anything about whether the actual resist check is magic or not.

It wouldnt be the first case of a spell that had a different resist check and different counter though. I believe the Tash line is considered an unresistable magic type spell but it has a poison counter.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216764

[Thordoff]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216764

Does that research alone support removal of disease counter from Ancient Breath?

[Ele]

Does that research alone support removal of disease counter from Ancient Breath?

If it added disease counters in the earlier version it would be expected to be listed in the SPdat similar to the modern iteration:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1486
2: Decrease Attack Speed by 40%
3: Decrease HP when cast by 250
4: Decrease Hitpoints by 20 per tick
5: Increase Disease Counter by 36

[Treats]

Ancient Breath
Dragon Resistance
Decrease Attack Speed by 40% (L1)
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 250 (L1)
Decrease Hit Points (HP) by 20 (L1)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Evocation
Allowable Targets: Point Blank AoE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 200 feet
Area Effect Range: 300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: Magic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Duration: Unknown
Duration Formula: 3
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: Your life force drains away.

[Man0warr]

Bump

[Raev]

Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds

Whoa, if this is true Vulak just got a LOT more interesting. Currently his AE goes off maybe every minute or so.

[Victorio]

Recast delay listed on a spell doesn't mean the NPC casts it that often.

[Victorio]

Actually in this case, you might have a point...


Vulak'Aerr himself is painfully easy. His AE is a 55% disease based slow, cureable, but the recast is 12 seconds, so very pointless.
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/the-back-alley/3869-vulak-can-someone-shed-some-light

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2035334&postcount=38

Bump please review the spell ID of the Dragon Roar associated to the 4 fearing Velious Dragons. I highly suspect they are flagged to be using the incorrect version of fear making the duration of fears raiders are susceptible to vary way too much even at max MR.

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2035334&postcount=38

Bump

[Alunova]

Just so you know the -6 to -150 was a format change during a rewrite of the spell system in 2002.

From all the research I have seen, -6 represented the equivalent of -25 resist per, meaning that -6 would have been -150 resist mod before the formatting change.

This is the data directly from the Velious client CD on my shelf compared to P99.

789^Dragon Roar^PLAYER_1^^^ lets loose a mighty roar.^You flee in terror.^^You are no longer afraid.^0^300^0^0^0^0^36000^7^3^0^0^-6^1^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^400^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^ 2507^2116^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^1^10^23^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^ 254^4^0^52^-1^0^0^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61 ^43^13^0^13^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^10 0^0^154^0

789^Dragon Roar^PLAYER_1^^^ lets loose a mighty roar.^You flee in terror.^^You are no longer afraid.^0^300^0^0^0^0^36000^7^3^0^0^0^1^0^0^0^0^0^ 0^0^0^0^0^400^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^2507^2116^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^1^10^23^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^ 254^4^0^52^-1^0^0^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^ 255^255^255^255^43^13^0^13^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0 ^0^0^0^0^0^0^100^0^154^101^0^-150^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^^^^0^0^0^0^0^0^0


-6 (x25) before the change == -150 after the change.

[Daldaen]

Indeed, I fully agree with you.

What I am saying is incorrect is the version individual mobs castL


[Tue Sep 23 18:11:57 2014] Zlandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Sep 20 08:01:00 2014] Klandicar begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Tue Sep 16 03:36:55 2014] Sontalak begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>

[Sun Jul 19 22:11:05 2015] Gorenaire begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Mon Mar 23 02:26:19 2015] Talendor begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>
[Wed Mar 25 02:42:33 2015] Severilous begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Fear>

Showing the Kunark dragons using the 789 ID spell, whereas the 981 ID spell (which has 0 Resist check) should be cast by Velious dragons.

I have a strong suspicion the Velious dragons are flagged using the incorrect (789) ID spell making their fears far more difficult to resist than they should be in era.

Can you confirm Sontalak, Zlandicar, Wuoshi and Klandicar are using the correct version (981)?

[Alunova]

I went through lucy raw data and confirmed the raw spell name for 789 was Dragon Fear and 981 was Dragon Roar.

Fixed pending update.

[Phantasm]

Can we move this to the main page? WOOOO

[Daldaen]

I went through lucy raw data and confirmed the raw spell name for 789 was Dragon Fear and 981 was Dragon Roar.

Fixed pending update.

Excellent! So we should see the Velious dragons using Dragon Roar (981) after next patch?

[Alunova]

Excellent! So we should see the Velious dragons using Dragon Roar (981) after next patch?

Unless your resist gear is really bad, yes.

[Alunova]

Unless your resist gear is really bad, yes.

Get it?! Because if not you would be runn...oh nevermind.

[Daldaen]

Awesome, thanks Alunova!

While you're at it, a similar bug post located here: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215005

Would love if you could check for the -6 value in the stock velious CD spell data file for those VP AEs. Using EQCasters parser of an April 2001 file and based on Lucy spell data I am not seeing these AEs having that high of a resist check in our era.