8th Ring / Gloridain / Ragetrade

[Droog007]

Is there any way we can come to an agreement other than "fastest trade in the west"? Because currently the prize for the runner-up is petitioning in hopes to get your Marching Orders returned. This creates extra headache for the staff - and we can bet that if we don't solve this problem with the tools given us (/random?), they will use their favorite tool (/variance!).

[paulgiamatti]

Just to clarify tho - if you open trade with Gloradin v1.0 (the Gloradin that spawns and accepts the Marching Orders), only two things can happen: Either you're the fastest to click give and you win the turn-in, or someone else beats you, she despawns, and the trade window closes.

The problem Droog is referring to is when an 8th ring hopeful accidentally opens trade with Gloradin v2.0 (the version that respawns immediately after Gloradin 1.0 accepts someone's Marching Orders), clicks give, and loses their Marching Orders.

[Daldaen]

Please no variance that would be the worst possible solution.

Showing up for 5min, losing orders and petitioning to get them back is immensely better than staring at a wall clicking for 8 hours night after night losing the turnins, even then people will still have their orders eaten under the same scenario.

Cause that's what it would turn in to. People already do it for Stormfeather, but his variance is classic. This didn't have variance and was a classic 24 hours.

If all people present want to come to an agreement they can do that. I've seen atleast 1 random off there and the winner did their turn in.

[Sallan]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205584

Paul is spot on - those who are a bit slow would open the trade window with Gloradin 2.0 and thus end up being a petition queue item since it gets eaten.

Ideally it would be good if it ended up being more socially manageable but sadly FTE appears to be what people prefer. The other problem I find is since this is a 24 hour spawn, once it has been set at a certain time it's likely not to change to make it a bit fair for people of other time zones (right now its around late night US which makes it difficult for EU and Asian/Oceanic folks).

Changing the mechanics of her timing will not be classic. However adding a bit more reset variance might help alleviate this problem (having her reset during a server maintenance/update as well, for eg). I do recall her being available that way during server downtime back on live

[Daldaen]

If they could set the 2nd version to not accept or open trades that would solve some of the issue. Or you just have the 2nd version spawn outside the house or have it give you back the Marching Orders.

[Droog007]

I didn't realize that she de/re-spawns ... I've watched a few turn-ins now - guess that goes to show that my ping is inferior. A code change (other than variance) would be great - but in the [eternal] interim, perhaps we could agree to some sort of friendly contest among those in attendance? Losing FTE on Stormfeather doesn't put work in the GM pipe.

[Doors]

The many benefits of playing on blue folks!

[Fanguru]

Some variance would help those of us on a different time zone and prevent setting alarms to stupid night times just to see people with much better ping hand-in before we even see the NPC pop.

[Daldaen]

Some variance would help those of us on a different time zone and prevent setting alarms to stupid night times just to see people with much better ping hand-in before we even see the NPC pop.

No. Server resets will handle time variance. Currently it's a midnight eastern respawn. Next server patch it will likely be a 6 AM EST reset. Hopefully Rogean will continue doing Sim Repops in Velious, and those will also serve as another way to vary the timer.

Variance is absolutely awful as it rewards people for spending hours on end staring at a blank spot clicking air. This is why Stormfeather, Ragefire and the Kunark raid scene were all shit shows. The people who were able to devote the most time sitting doing absolutely nothing benefit the most.

If you want to be diplomatic you can try to get everyone present to agree to a /random or some other system of deciding the turn in person. If that fails, they could simply change the 2nd Gloradin spawn to pop outside of the house so that no one turns into the respawned version.

[Haynar]

No plans to currently change how quest works.

[Erati]

as it is right now people can schedule their disappointment very conveniently, adding variance would not alleviate the pro clickers presence, and it would kill any chance casuals will have

[Man0warr]

Just having Gloridain 2.0 in a slightly different spot would solve this issue.

Same thing happens with Scout Charisa, but the tools are easy to get a new set of.

[Fanguru]

No. Server resets will handle time variance.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206149

I'm not sure what Rogean means by "unless manually triggered", my current understanding is that the spawn time will never change.

[Ele]

If someone is waiting there, then come back another time. You have forever.

CSR giving quest pieces back for superfluous turn-ins just encourages the practice of spamming the quest mob.

[Haynar]

Just having Gloridain 2.0 in a slightly different spot would solve this issue.

Same thing happens with Scout Charisa, but the tools are easy to get a new set of.

Learning to get along, take turns, and play nice with others also works. There is no reason to change it to cater to the asshats.

H

[4WOFURY]

Not looking for a change in the way the spawn works, but a "Gloradin tells you, 'Sorry, xx, but I don't need this item right now" or whatever the text was for a mob with an incorrect turn in item was would alleviate lost Marching Orders.

That's already an Everquest mechanic, just not utilized until later (PoP?), so I know "Shit's not classic, breh", but neither is 20 people crowding into a hut for a turn in, 7 nights a week.

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206149

I'm not sure what Rogean means by "unless manually triggered", my current understanding is that the spawn time will never change.

No, he means server maintenance, IE server coming down for 30-60 min but no patch goes in is different from a server patch. Those server maintenance things don't respawn raid mobs either.

I'm pretty confident everything will respawn when the server comes up after a fresh patch. And then it will be locked into that time slot for a bit.

Sim Repops were set up to respawn everything, see Verina and Vessel for example. I'm *hoping* Rogean keeps with those during Velious, and that mobs like Scout and Gloradin get reset when they occur.

I agree with Manowarr that slightly modifying its spawn location in 2.0 form would resolve the issue.

I am personally fine with singing Kumbaya and agreeing to roll or some other fair means of determining turn in person. But on this server I'm not sure such an agreement can be made.

[Fanguru]

The problem with taking turns on a 24h repop is that the line gets longer and longer until it becomes ridiculous.
Almost everyone want that ring. Server population is often 1000+. Let's say only half of those 1k want the ring and are level-ready, and let's pretend they only have one toon.
You are looking at a 500 days list already. That is close to a year and a half.

Previous steps have a maximum of 3 hours repop and are very easy. You get a constant stream of new players ready for 8th ring war.

Scout Charisa is a 10 hours timer, this is much less than Gloradin's 24.

This is about giving people a fair chance, the issue is not getting along.

[Daldaen]

You've illuminated the issue and it's pretty clear the line and competition for this mob will never be alleviated.

So either people can try nightly, spam click for 2-3 min and try again the next night. Or they can resolve to not get the ring because they don't want to deal with it.

[Ella`Ella]

If they could set the 2nd version to not accept or open trades that would solve some of the issue. Or you just have the 2nd version spawn outside the house or have it give you back the Marching Orders.

"I have no use for this item. You can have it back"

Easy solution.

[Daldaen]

Also spawning him outside the hut after a successful turnin so that you can't misclick onto him, another easy solution.

But it sounds like they aren't inclined to do either. That may just result in a few extra petitions a week about eaten marching orders. If that's fine with the powers that be, so be it.

[azeth]

Please no variance that would be the worst possible solution.

Showing up for 5min, losing orders and petitioning to get them back is immensely better than staring at a wall clicking for 8 hours night after night losing the turnins,

not sure if you're up on petition time turnarounds, but it's a long wait.

i've requested ring 1-7 in the time it's taken for mine.

[Ele]

"I have no use for this item. You can have it back"

Easy solution.

"Easy solution", if you don't want people losing the superfluous turn-in piece(s) or petitioning for reimbursement.

Implementing it this way still encourages people to not queue, crowd the mob, and use autofire for turning in.

[Daldaen]

not sure if you're up on petition time turnarounds, but it's a long wait.

i've requested ring 1-7 in the time it's taken for mine.

Im aware on the delay, I have a petition waiting for a Dirk reimbursement due to incorrect faction check on the Dain.

But you can't honestly say, that having to resort to clicking air for 8 hours with variance would be any sort of improvement to the current situation. People will still click air with variance being in. People did it with Ragefire and Stormfeather... They'll do it here too.

All variance does is push casuals away from completing things and reward neckbeards for staring at their screen for 8 hours doing nothing else but clicking.

Plus for most people, they cannot solo the ring war. And the timer on the event before Garadian charges is minimal such that players couldn't port to Iceclad or GD and run over... so they would have to have friends camped out for 8 hours waiting to log in. Whereas now you can have your friends present for 5 minutes and if you don't get the turn in, oh well.

I agree something being done about the turnins getting eaten would be good. But variance is not the solution to this.

[Fanguru]

All variance does is push casuals away from completing things and reward neckbeards for staring at their screen for 8 hours doing nothing else but clicking.

I agree variance pushes casual players away.
Yet no variance pushes non-US citizens away. Right now you need a very good ping to compete for that turn-in. There is no way an asian or euro can compete at the moment.
I have a fantastic fiber optics connection, yet mobs are triggered before I can even see the NPC pop.
It was the case with ragefire and nobles click fests.

At least with a little variance (not the 16 hours nightmare), we could hope people aren't fully focused when mob pops.

[Haynar]

I am pretty sure they plan dirk replacements.

You rageclick ur turn in and get wrong version of NPC? Typical CSR response on this would result in no reimbursement. Its the risk you take.

Totally getting wrong NPC, sometimes they reimburse. Not always.

H

[paulgiamatti]

Learning to get along, take turns, and play nice with others also works. There is no reason to change it to cater to the asshats.

H

I've witnessed the Gloradin click-fest a few times now, and I just think it's really unfair to say that everyone who's doing it is being an "asshat".

A lot of the people there competing for it are really kind, selfless players, some of which I've had really great grouping or raiding experiences with. They're not there to screw people over. They're there to compete for the 8th ring in the only way that they can - by being the first person to turn in the Marching Orders to Gloradin.

It's not like some warrior from Omni, or some monk from Divinity, or what have you, can simply just chime in ten minutes before the spawn and be like, "Hey, guys? Can't we work something out here?" I mean, they can, but do you really think every single person there is going to just drop it and go along with some alternative plan?

I am all for working things out and learning to play nice, but look at how these things have been handled by players and staff alike historically - look at things like Eldreth and Ragefire. I just think saying people are "asshats" because they're participating in a click-fest is a really lazy way of assessing and dealing with the situation, and I hope the rest of the P99 staff doesn't share this opinion.

[Fanguru]

I just think saying people are "asshats" because they're participating in a click-fest is a really lazy way of assessing and dealing with the situation, and I hope the rest of the P99 staff doesn't share this opinion.

Thank you sir, one Internet to you.

[Daldaen]

I agree variance pushes casual players away.
Yet no variance pushes non-US citizens away. Right now you need a very good ping to compete for that turn-in. There is no way an asian or euro can compete at the moment.
I have a fantasatic fiber optics connection, yet mobs are triggered before I can even see the NPC pop.
It was the case with ragefire and nobles click fests.

At least with a little variance (not the 16 hours nightmare), we could hope people aren't fully focused when mob pops.

True, or have US friends who can help you.

One of my guildmates lives in the middle of no where and has 300 ping. After having the issue you mention where the mob is already turned in before you see it on your screen, he asked another guildmate and myself to log in on his behalf. After we each logged him in 1 night, I got the turn in for him and finished up his ring while playing his character. He saw an issue and utilized guildmates/friends to overcome the issue. Not super classic, but in the spirit of classic.

The issue with high ping non-American players is a real one. If we get a euro time repop or server patch, that may help resolve this issue. If he is spawning at 10AM US time, most will be at work through the workdays and then euros have a better shot, for example.

Little variance or lots of variance won't help. Nerds will spam click regardless. And when nerds are spam clicking euros aren't going to be any better off.

I've seen atleast 1 turnin go to the high roller when the 4 or so people present agreed to do it that way and /random. The only problem with this system is the list will continue to grow. RNG should eventually fall in your favor but you could go from being 1 of 5 trying to turn in to being 1 in 20 trying to turn in and you may keep losing.

[Haynar]

If you are participating in a click fest, just to burden CSR staff with dealing with petitions of items that are likely to be lost, you are being a jerk. Intentionally causing more work for the staff, with the assumption that you will be reimbursed, at no risk to you = being an asshat.

Thanks for your long post justifying that the staffs time is less valuable than yours. You just proved which side you belong on.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

H

[Haynar]

"I have no use for this item. You can have it back"

Easy solution.

This was discussed a long time ago. And it was decided that it is not classic. Classically the only reimbursement for handing wrong items in, was only to be supported for epic quests. This was going to require minimal CSR support.

It was my recommendation to hand back items anyways if they weren't needed by npc. Even if it wasnt classic. The decision was not mine to make.

This is not easy-mode EQ. Sorry.

H

[maskedmelon]

If you are participating in a click fest, just to burden CSR staff with dealing with petitions of items that are likely to be lost, you are being a jerk. Intentionally causing more work for the staff, with the assumption that you will be reimbursed, at no risk to you = being an asshat.

Thanks for your long post justifying that the staffs time is less valuable than yours. You just proved which side you belong on.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

H

+1

"Selflessness" is illusory. All Rational behavior is selfish by definition. Unless you live in a padded room, you are inherently selfish. It is a matter of with whom your interests align. As H points out, clicking air is inconsiderate to staff as well as others doing the same thing. On the other hand, organizing a rotation is inconsiderate of those who'd prefer to click air.

[Scryll]

I am pretty sure they plan dirk replacements.

You rageclick ur turn in and get wrong version of NPC? Typical CSR response on this would result in no reimbursement. Its the risk you take.

Totally getting wrong NPC, sometimes they reimburse. Not always.

H

Im in europe and have between 150-200ms most of the time. I turned inn my Marching Orders almost 2 weeks ago and lost it to another person (probably because he had better ping), but on my screen I was the first to turn inn. I understand this can't be fixed, so for now I just hope my reimburstment petition goes through and I will wait for that one day when the server repops or something and I am there alone. Having to go through another 150-200 hours of farm to get to #7 Coldain ring again would be a real unfair punishment =/

[paulgiamatti]

Again, players are participating in a click-fest because they want to compete, not because they want to screw people over. They're trying to get their Velium Coldain Insignia Ring, not a bloated petition queue for the server GMs. This is an easy concept.

If it's creating more CSR work for the staff, then there's a problem that extends beyond "we're being asshats."

[Ele]

Im in europe and have between 150-200ms most of the time. I turned inn my Marching Orders almost 2 weeks ago and lost it to another person (probably because he had better ping), but on my screen I was the first to turn inn. I understand this can't be fixed, so for now I just hope my reimburstment petition goes through and I will wait for that one day when the server repops or something and I am there alone. Having to go through another 150-200 hours of farm to get to #7 Coldain ring again would be a real unfair punishment =/

Who is punishing you?

Also, Velious has only been released for, we'll round up, 23 days. 23 * 24 = 552 total hours. You really spent 150-200 hours on the quest?

[Scryll]

Who is punishing you?

Also, Velious has only been released for, we'll round up, 23 days. 23 * 24 = 552 total hours. You really spent 150-200 hours on the quest?

Around that yes, I had to do the #1 Coldain ring combine 2 times because of Trivial failure on the combine. This made me end up around 30 hours of farming for those pelts. I spent around 24 hours getting Boridain, failing multiple times because of people training into him / grief / 8th ring war killing him... and much more. Basicly I spent a shit ton of time on everything except #6 with Icefang. That one I only spent like 30min or so doing. Ive been affected by Murphy's Law when it comes to me doing Dain ring in general.

[Man0warr]

Learning to get along, take turns, and play nice with others also works. There is no reason to change it to cater to the asshats.

H

I mean all it takes is one rogue player to ruin that - there is no incentive.

All this solution does is make it easier for your CSR staff by preventing untold numbers of petitions. Velious is littered with quest issues like this one.

[wormed]

This was discussed a long time ago. And it was decided that it is not classic.

Why'd you force Velious textures? At what line do you draw what is deemed classic and what is deemed not classic?

If you are participating in a click fest, just to burden CSR staff with dealing with petitions of items that are likely to be lost, you are being a jerk. Intentionally causing more work for the staff, with the assumption that you will be reimbursed, at no risk to you = being an asshat.

Thanks for your long post justifying that the staffs time is less valuable than yours. You just proved which side you belong on.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

Wut? You're joining the click fest to obtain an item in the game, not to burden the CSR staff. To make that correlation takes some serious mind wrapping. Can it be a CSR issue? I guess so but to call people asshats for participating in one retarded element on P99 (and classic EQ) that is a huge bottleneck due to the timeline of P99 in the first place is a bit silly.

Again, players are participating in a click-fest because they want to compete, not because they want to screw people over. They're trying to get their Velium Coldain Insignia Ring, not a bloated petition queue for the server GMs. This is an easy concept.

If it's creating more CSR work for the staff, then there's a problem that extends beyond "we're being asshats."

Didn't see Paul say this. I have the same sentiment.

[kaev]

Think I'll wait until PoP comes out to do this quest. Hopefully the queue will be down by then.

[Droog007]

It looks like the best answer here is to attempt to get all known guilds to ratify an agreement that there will be a /random contest held on-site at Gloridain minus 5 minutes. Then all we can do is name and shame the rogues.

If you win the /random and fail (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206833), Orc Chief rights fall to the next high roll until Garadain has died/despawned...

[Pan]

It looks like the best answer here is to attempt to get all known guilds to ratify an agreement that there will be a /random contest held on-site at Gloridain minus 5 minutes. Then all we can do is name and shame the rogues.

If you win the /random and fail (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206833), Orc Chief rights fall to the next high roll until Garadain has died/despawned...

Omni would support this.

And Haynar, if you conflate people trying to complete quests in "not easy-mode EQ" with asshattery and intentionally griefing staff...I really don't know what to say. But wow.

[Daldaen]

It looks like the best answer here is to attempt to get all known guilds to ratify an agreement that there will be a /random contest held on-site at Gloridain minus 5 minutes. Then all we can do is name and shame the rogues.

If you win the /random and fail (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206833), Orc Chief rights fall to the next high roll until Garadain has died/despawned...
The problem with guild agreements here is not everyone doing the ring is in a large guild or any guild for that matter.

This could be ratified by all guilds and possibly work, but it only takes one person who disagrees to ruin the whole thing. It will be tough to keep this agreement in order if one person ignore the random winner and turns in themselves.

It worked on Ragefire briefly and Noble Dojorn because those took a raid for awhile until Donals fell from the sky and monks were in max MR gear.

[Droog007]

It doesn't ruin the whole thing - it's a 24 hour setback. I'll grant you that I haven't been there that many times for the click-fest... but I'm mainly (99%) seeing Asgard, Omni, Divinity, Taken...

[Daldaen]

My point is how many 24 hour setbacks will need to happen before the agreeing parties decide they have a better shot at just throwing the agreement aside and clicking air again.

Agreements are great but if not everyone is bound by it, it can fall apart quickly.

[wormed]

My point is how many 24 hour setbacks will need to happen before the agreeing parties decide they have a better shot at just throwing the agreement aside and clicking air again.

Agreements are great but if not everyone is bound by it, it can fall apart quickly.

I don't agree. I don't think setbacks make someone want to come to an agreement. I think it's just an impossible agreement to enforce, unfortunately. With that said, I'd be up for an agreement, however.

[Pan]

It really doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. Nor does it need to be particularly enforceable to make incremental progress, at least. Once that I know of, those who were there agreed to /random. And when I get to that step (screwed up on my 6th or 7th ring turnin...doh!), I'll suggest it each night I'm there. I suppose sometimes it will work, and sometimes not.

But incremental progress toward a more sane server is better than no progress at all. So many times we expect a top-down solution when there's one available from the inside->out instead.

[captnamazing]

cloki let me take this moment to say that your sig comes across as very rapey

[nyclin]

haynar and rogean must be going through some rough times or something, they've been super salty lately

makes no sense to leave this 100% classic when scout charisa and ziglark whisperwing have already been modified "for CSR reasons"

people are going to be assholes no matter what, may as well make it so that people who are assholes aren't impacting others' hard work and aren't creating unneeded work for the CSR staff

[wormed]

haynar and rogean must be going through some rough times or something, they've been super salty lately

makes no sense to leave this 100% classic when scout charisa and ziglark whisperwing have already been modified "for CSR reasons"

people are going to be assholes no matter what, may as well make it so that people who are assholes aren't impacting others' hard work and aren't creating unneeded work for the CSR staff

The selective nature of what they feel has to remain classic and what doesn't makes absolutely no sense. God dammit, why can't I turn off Velious armor textures? I mean... COME ON!

[Pan]

cloki let me take this moment to say that your sig comes across as very rapey

As Dr. Freud might say, "Sometimes an Olive Branch is just a cigar..."

[Sorn]

Cloki is very huggable for an Iksar!

[Skado]

The selective nature of what they feel has to remain classic and what doesn't makes absolutely no sense. God dammit, why can't I turn off Velious armor textures? I mean... COME ON!

^this

As long as there is "unclassic" content like Ziglark in the game, then I refuse to listen to such buffoonery.

I got lucky with a fast ping. I feel kind of blessed that I didn't blow my marching orders on Gloradin 2.0. For those that have done so...I really feel for you.

I'd totally be in favor of a nightly guild /random. Winning guild can grant the turn in (obviously decided prior to spawn time) to whomever they wish. This prevents someone having been ready for the ring and not getting a turn in for months due to crappy rolls every night. Guilds could manage who deserves the turn in, internally. Let's be adults. There'll undoubtedly be some turds in the punchbowl, but we can always out them as such.

[Droog007]

I'd totally be in favor of a nightly guild /random. Winning guild can grant the turn in (obviously decided prior to spawn time) to whomever they wish. This prevents someone having been ready for the ring and not getting a turn in for months due to crappy rolls every night. Guilds could manage who deserves the turn in, internally. Let's be adults. There'll undoubtedly be some turds in the punchbowl, but we can always out them as such.

Probly better to just have everyone with Marching Orders roll. Guilds with more than 1 person at the bottleneck shouldn't be effectively penalized.

P.S. ... I think I drank your chocolate punch :eek:

[Thiefboy777]

Just forget this quest, bracer of benevolence quest, and eye patch or plunder quest exist... you will be happier.

[ridiculousmoose]

Just forget this quest, bracer of benevolence quest, and eye patch or plunder quest exist... you will be happier.

^^this guy gets it

[Droog007]

As long as we're altering memories - why can't I just make everyone else forget about it?

[Calibix]

Just forget this quest, bracer of benevolence questx2, and eye patch or plunder quest exist... you will be happier.

Neckbeard harder brah.

[JayDee]

Please no variance that would be the worst possible solution.


I disagree with this guy more often than not so I am going to say variance is probably a good idea if he is against it.