Discussion on 20 minute engage rule for undead bard (trak guts) when next patch comes

[Oleris]

Similar to how ragefire currently works, next patch a summonable Trakanon will be available for bards to get their guts for their epic. He is on a ~24 hour or so spawn, who knows about variance on p1999 for this. This Trakanon will drop 1 breastplate that is currently on his loot table with a guaranteed set of guts for the bard epic.

Currently, for quests and summonable events like this, the person who turned it in gets 20 minutes to start the encounter before others can kill it for themselves. I know in the past people farming ixiblats for MQ's would get terribly angry when their ragefire would get sniped.

So, I was thinking how it would be almost impossible to get a turn in and be able to get a raid force to engage Trakanon within 20 minutes that are spread out in Norrath, especially if the person doesn't have a COTH mage parked on poop sock mountain. The guild would need to port to dl --> KC ---> evac to EJ --> TT ---> seb --> clear or COTH down for Trakanon within 20 minutes. VS remains shouldn't be too hard since a guild can port to DL and run straight to KC

Here are some options
1) leave it how it is (guild slow? too bad)
2) extend window to engage
3) allow other guilds to engage after 20, but gurantee guts to the person who did turnin.

Feel free to discuss.

[Champion_Standing]

✓ 4) Wipe it clean

[Exmo]

Anyone want to post how brutal the pre-quest is to get the turn in piece? If it sucks a lot that changes things. Pearls are easier.

[Oleris]

Red scale is summonable in the hole + ragefire/naggy/talendor, trak gut comes from trakanon or new trak. Only bottleneck will be white scale from vox/gore

[Ele]

Let's see if people are even spam clicking fake Trak air first.

This isn't a duo/trio event like Ragefire. Even 2-3 groups can easily wipe without a clean lair pull/clear.

If we hadn't seen 300+ Traks by now, I could see people wanting the BPs still. The two-three groups farming fake Trak would be better off doing plate cycle/Arena/WToV/HoT if they want armor upgrades.

Guilds farming fake Trak for guts to sell on MQ? We'll see.

[Oleris]

Let's see if people are even spam clicking fake Trak air first.

This isn't a duo/trio event like Ragefire. Even 2-3 groups can easily wipe without a clean lair pull/clear.

If we hadn't seen 300+ Traks by now, I could see people wanting the BPs still. The two-three groups farming fake Trak would be better off doing plate cycle/Arena/WToV/HoT if they want armor upgrades.

Guilds farming fake Trak for guts to sell on MQ? We'll see.

I could easily see some larger guilds parking alts they don't play anymore at the entrance of Seb just for these since it will be ~1 every 24 hours. No idea how cheap trak guts will go, but I would definitely park a character at seb entrance if a fake trak was snipeable every day for a chance to roll on guts/bp.

[Swish]

I think that blue server doesn't have enough rules and needs further written directions on every mob that drops an item.

I'm glad to find my opinion is shared with those in this thread <3

[fastboy21]

on red, undead bard spawns you...

[Erati]

Your Lute Your Trak

YLYT lol

[Oleris]

Also, anyone know if this trak can drop mana robe or cloak of piety? or just one of the class BP's?

[Erati]

can drop Robe

[Juevento]

Maybe this is a crazy idea, but how about if you didn't spawn the mob, don't touch it.

[Oleris]

Maybe this is a crazy idea, but how about if you didn't spawn the mob, don't touch it.

trigger for ring war is 24 hour respawn, should keep respawning the dain IMO.

[khanable]

Maybe this is a crazy idea, but how about if you didn't spawn the mob, don't touch it.

+1

I'm unfamiliar with the quest, if you turn in and it gets sniped, do you lose your progress? Is it a significant loss?

[maestrom]

+1

I'm unfamiliar with the quest, if you turn in and it gets sniped, do you lose your progress? Is it a significant loss?

You get your lute right back in the turn in. You lose nothing except your time that afternoon.

This doesn't matter though. Sniping targets should not be allowed.

[fastboy21]

+1

I'm unfamiliar with the quest, if you turn in and it gets sniped, do you lose your progress? Is it a significant loss?

you don't lose anything. you hand the udb an item. on hitting trade he hands it back, despawns, and trak pops.

this is good and bad. good, if you lose you don't have a penalty other than waiting for the next udb to try again. bad, unless you actually finish the bard epic you can keep spawning trak to farm the BP/sell the MQ.

Given that there is so much else to do in velious, the mob is out of the way, and that it takes a decently sized force to take down trak I wouldn't expect too much in the way of trouble here.

if any guild does decide to farm UDB trak to the detriment of bards waiting in need, then I hope the whole server joins in ruining them. it would be a total dick move.

one solution i would support is that once trak is popped (I don't know how long UDB trak stays up for) that if another guild swoops in that only the BP goes to them. let the bard have the damn guts...

[Ele]

+1

I'm unfamiliar with the quest, if you turn in and it gets sniped, do you lose your progress? Is it a significant loss?

My understanding is hand in lute body UDB, get it right back, UDB aggros, kill UDB, spawns trak, kill trak, loot guts. No loss. Requires white and red scales to get the lute body first though.

If a guild wants to invest a white and red scale and time to farm UDB for guts they can. Using a white scale to not get a Bard epic though will shrink the available white scales even more so.

[fastboy21]

My understanding is hand in lute body UDB, get it right back, UDB aggros, kill UDB, spawns trak, kill trak, loot guts. No loss. Requires white and red scales to get the lute body first though.

If a guild wants to invest a white and red scale and time to farm UDB for guts they can. Using a white scale to not get a Bard epic though will shrink the available white scales even more so.

my fear would be that a bard doing the quest to get his epic will have to buy his white scale. in order to pay for the scale he will sell his loot rights to the BP from the trak kill. he can do this as many times as he wants as long as he doesn't finish his epic; once he finishes he will no longer have the bit to hand UDB.

i.e. he can pay the cost of the scale by farming (or letting a hit team farm) the trak BPs.

[maestrom]

my fear would be that a bard doing the quest to get his epic will have to buy his white scale. in order to pay for the scale he will sell his loot rights to the BP from the trak kill. he can do this as many times as he wants as long as he doesn't finish his epic; once he finishes he will no longer have the bit to hand UDB.

i.e. he can pay the cost of the scale by farming (or letting a hit team farm) the trak BPs.

1 UDB every 24 hours and a raid force worth of alts camped at seb IZ, more than enough bps to make 1 white scale worth it.

Or a hit team will just get a lute and farm trak themselves. There's nothing that says a bard that has his epic couldn't just get another lute and farm trak bps and sell loot rights if available. No reason to believe this won't be farmed.

First in force would let a bard bringing his own raid force to claim the target. Without any Tom foolery and spawn sniping.

As it is, there's no reason to believe that someone outside of a top raid guild will see their SSS without buying it, which was precisely why UDB was put in on live. But w/e. FTE bruh.

[Kender]

epic mq's should be banned

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Let's see if people are even spam clicking fake Trak air first.

This isn't a duo/trio event like Ragefire. Even 2-3 groups can easily wipe without a clean lair pull/clear.

If we hadn't seen 300+ Traks by now, I could see people wanting the BPs still. The two-three groups farming fake Trak would be better off doing plate cycle/Arena/WToV/HoT if they want armor upgrades.

Guilds farming fake Trak for guts to sell on MQ? We'll see.

This. If fake trak had teeth would be one thing, but Trak BP's? Let players sort it out first. This may very well be a non-issue. I remember on live, fake trak was something a guild would do for a guild bard, and there was no hassle, it was a "slow night" kind of thing to do.

[maestrom]

This. If fake trak had teeth would be one thing, but Trak BP's? Let players sort it out first. This may very well be a non-issue. I remember on live, fake trak was something a guild would do for a guild bard, and there was no hassle, it was a "slow night" kind of thing to do.

I think this will probably be the case eventually. Probably like Phinny. Yeah he's up a lot now, but he died twice a day for how many years?

But for several months, guilds with CoTH plants already set and capable of camping a raid force at Seb IZ will farm it. Why not? It costs them nothing to break off of what they're doing and take a free trak BP. Charging clickies is expensive, an extra 5 Kunark BPS a and bard epic MQs a week can go a long way toward funding that.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I think this will probably be the case eventually. Probably like Phinny. Yeah he's up a lot now, but he died twice a day for how many years?

But for several months, guilds with CoTH plants already set and capable of camping a raid force at Seb IZ will farm it. Why not? It costs them nothing to break off of what they're doing and take a free trak BP. Charging clickies is expensive, an extra 5 Kunark BPS a and bard epic MQs a week can go a long way toward funding that.

I know guilds defray some costs of recharging items + reagents, but I also know that guilds also require that their raiders get a brain moran and manage to keep enough bank to buy their own supplies.

Farming Trak bp's would def be on the "wow we got nothing to do" list. Could make more money mq'ing velious armor pieces at this point.

[Man0warr]

What Trak BPs are even worth anything these days? 20-40k split among 2-3 groups doesn't seem worth it.

[Plackers]

Dear Devs, we won't need this on red as we don't have to hold hands and stand by a campfire waiting for dragons.

Thank you.

[Pheer]

Dear Devs, we won't need this on red as we don't have to hold hands and stand by a campfire waiting for dragons.

Thank you.

thats because theres nobody to compete with you to kill them so you can pick whenever you feel like to do them

[zanderklocke]

Are there really enough bard alts that one trak guts won't be enough. Most people stop their bard alts at 50 once they can't AE kite anymore. I doubt all of these alts will be willing to invest in white dragon scales.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

fake trak will likely be a drunken raiding night target. good. we need to sparkle party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-jN3vH26NQ

[eisley]

specific boss rules should only be created as a last resort imo

[am0n]

if any guild does decide to farm UDB trak to the detriment of bards waiting in need, then I hope the whole server joins in ruining them. it would be a total dick move.


I hope the same is said about guilds trying to farm VSR just to sell.

[Plackers]

thats because theres nobody to compete with you to kill them so you can pick whenever you feel like to do them

There are currently over 4 guilds capable of killing trak. Thanks for your useless input.

[Varren]

Bush/towers. Roll red.

[DarthMartigan]

Are there really enough bard alts that one trak guts won't be enough. Most people stop their bard alts at 50 once they can't AE kite anymore. I doubt all of these alts will be willing to invest in white dragon scales.

This makes me smile. You can AE kite to 60 if you are good at it.

[Fanguru]

Wait until there is an actual issue. The guilds who can kill Trak have better things to do than get ready to jump on alts just for a Kunark BP.
The worst scenario I can picture is a bard doing his turn-in, getting one attempt on Trak, wiping, then a guild popping in to kill Trak and CRing the bard's force after.
Bard could re-attempt to get guts the day after.

[Kileras]

This makes me smile. You can AE kite to 60 if you are good at it.


it's not that you can't, it's that post 55 the slow down is immense and most people are done with the "high" of seeing the yellow bar go up quickly. 2-3% a pull? pshhh.

[Kileras]

This is only an issue to the people that can afford white scales really. Guilds like mine that don't do gore/vox simply will not have access to white scales. I feel we do fairly well for ourselves but the economy of white scales is heavily in favor of the top tier guilds.

No need to waggle our E-ego's for those that can do it, but its understandable that gore is a gnarly dragon to have to go for, and the 52 dragons are contested for this reason. It's been 4 years and there is still no slow down or availability for white scales. This all makes one part of the epic much easier, but it still is post a gigantic bottleneck of white scales.

20 minutes seems like a crazy muster time to be expected of any guild other than those that can camp out at the target, and those that can camp out at the target ( most likely a bunch of alts capable of doing trak ), are the ones that have been on the top already for quite some time.

what is so horrible about a 1 hour muster time and a guarantee on your guts if you lose the kill? Maybe there is something horrible i'm just not thinking of it.

[trite]

I think with Velious content eating up so much time, established raiding guilds don't have much interest in socking gut + bp only trak or even regular trak. Bards are kind of rare too since playing them is an inhumanly cruel test of focus and finger tendon endurance. A few weeks after this makes it into the game it shouldn't be highly contested...speculating about the situation is fun but I wouldn't try and establish rules for this encounter until its obvious they are needed.\

Also, I feel like FFA regardless of who did hand in should have been an option on the poll.

[Fanguru]

There is a minimum effort to provide.
The other guild/force does not owe you anything and could use the MQ funds for resist gear / PLing guild toones / recharges / whatever.

On the other hand, you could make an agreement with a guild beforehand, contacting them and saying: "Look, I can trigger Trak but I need help to kill him. Help me out and you get the BP, I get the guts".
Some up-and-coming guilds cannot compete on Trak currently, but could be interested if it is scheduled and provides them with experience on the encounter.

Also, as Kileras said, white scales will still be the main bottleneck.

[Man0warr]

I think with Velious content eating up so much time, established raiding guilds don't have much interest in socking gut + bp only trak or even regular trak.

Regular Trak is still heavily contested for VP keys.

Also, as Kileras said, white scales will still be the main bottleneck.

The problem is someone could get the Lute body from turning in scales and since you get it back from the Undead Bard when handing in, one person (doesn't even have to be a bard) could just keep that Lute Body forever and farm Fake Trak for BPs.

[Daldaen]

Regular Trak is still heavily contested for VP keys.



The problem is someone could get the Lute body from turning in scales and since you get it back from the Undead Bard when handing in, one person (doesn't even have to be a bard) could just keep that Lute Body forever and farm Fake Trak for BPs.

I don't see anyone doing this.

I can see us keeping a communal Lute Body to get bards their Trak guts so that once they get scales they are done... I absolutely don't see us turning in Lute Body to try for the 1 BP or to sell Trak guts.

It's a daily spawn and there are only so many bards. I'm not too terribly concerned about this one.

People really shouldn't try to rule lawyer this, just let the dude who turns in get their fight done, there is no hurry.

[Vallanor]

I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (yet). If it's a shit show a month after the patch, then something can be worked out.

[Oleris]

Well, prepare to see faster regular trak engages with smaller numbers now that guilds can practice once a day if they wish.

[Man0warr]

People really shouldn't try to rule lawyer this, just let the dude who turns in get their fight done, there is no hurry.

I don't think it will be an issue either, maybe the first month or two as all the guilded bards with White Scales in bank rush to finish. Was just pointing out the method exists.

Well, prepare to see faster regular trak engages with smaller numbers now that guilds can practice once a day if they wish.

Not sure it's comparable - Fast Trak engages are more about dealing with the adds, and that variable won't be present. Plus Fake Trak doesn't get time to buff, and it may just be weaker as well. I'm pretty sure the Fake VS for instance is easier - just some googling found this:

Venril Sathir (Triggered)
~18k HP
Has a 1500pt Lifetap that is either proc or spell. It does not go off as often as the real VS making this version much easier to kill.
Drops:
2 Pulsing Green Stones for Druid/Ranger Epic
Iksar Shaman Quest piece (Blackened bones or something)
Does NOT drop Kunark class pants or anything else

[Ele]

Well, prepare to see faster regular trak engages with smaller numbers now that guilds can practice once a day if they wish.

Not sure it's comparable - Fast Trak engages are more about dealing with the adds, and that variable won't be present. Plus Fake Trak doesn't get time to buff, and it may just be weaker as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't UDB spawn in the middle of the trak's lair with Prot and juggs wandering around him? And you have to kill UDB before the fake trak spawns?

Even if you train out the lair, then send in your crew to turn in/kill UDB to spawn trak, your crew will be in the lair when Trak spawns. That isn't the same as a rush trak engage.

I guess you could pull out the UDB, kill him, let everything reset, then do a rush engage/train away. That depends if Trak spawns in his lair (like ragefire) or on the UDB death spot or if UDB is rooted or not.

[Spyder73]

The question is not "will fake Trak be a sh!t show". If you are asking this question then you do not truly understand the insanity that is the P99 player base. The question is "for how long will fake Trak be a sh!t show", and it is super cute that some of you think Velious is going to make people less pixel crazy about spawnable Kunark dragons. People will go absolutely ape sh!t over the possibility of winning a /random1000 on a 20-40k BP. Even if prices fall to 10k for BPs, this camp will be permanently farmed and permanently contested for the foreseeable future. Every raid guild will have a hit squad camped in Seb with a Bard who has no intention of progressing the quest (or already has epic) and it will be a f#ck fest of training jugs by people who don't know what to do every single day down there.

THE ONLY saving grace for this is that it is very "out of the way", and it will require at least 2 groups. So there is a chance I am wrong....I just think some in this thread are COMPLETELY underestimating how crazy P99ers are about loot.

The real solution here is FTE for turn in - Bard get Guts 100% of the time - fake Trak is then considered an "open raid mob" that anyone on the server can attend if they want. and then the BP is randomed by EVERYONE, not just those who can use. Make it a community event

[Swish]

Maybe this is a crazy idea, but how about if you didn't spawn the mob, don't touch it.

Is that the official BDA angle? Something tells me it isn't.

[Man0warr]

Nah, no one cares much about Ragefire anymore and he drops more valuable items and epic piece for a more played class.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't UDB spawn in the middle of the trak's lair with Prot and juggs wandering around him? And you have to kill UDB before the fake trak spawns?

Even if you train out the lair, then send in your crew to turn in/kill UDB to spawn trak, your crew will be in the lair when Trak spawns. That isn't the same as a rush trak engage.

I guess you could pull out the UDB, kill him, let everything reset, then do a rush engage/train away. That depends if Trak spawns in his lair (like ragefire) or on the UDB death spot or if UDB is rooted or not.

Enraged Bard spawns close enough to where you did turn in to aggro you. Trak spawns when you kill Enraged - works similar to Ragefire.

But I'm saying anyone going down for UDB is going to clear out all the adds before killing the Enraged bard.

Is that the official BDA angle? Something tells me it isn't.

This isn't RnF, go away.

[arsenalpow]

The 20 minute clause covers this just fine, don't go full retard and turn in the lute early and then try to rally your forces. Get your team in place, coth down (or walk, whatever) then do the turn in and start the clock.

[Man0warr]

Camping a force down there when you don't know you are going to win the turn in kind of sucks though. That approach will be fine once the demand dies down but 20 min isn't enough if you don't have people camped in anticipation of you winning.

[Swish]

The 20 minute clause covers this just fine, don't go full retard and turn in the lute early and then try to rally your forces. Get your team in place, coth down (or walk, whatever) then do the turn in and start the clock.

Are there "BDA bux" available for socking the turn in area and preparing in case there's a fail?

[Spyder73]

Nah, no one cares much about Ragefire anymore and he drops more valuable items and epic piece for a more played class.

The BPs can be sold in EC - most of Ragefires loot is No Drop - thats the key difference

[Juevento]

The 20 minute clause covers this just fine, don't go full retard and turn in the lute early and then try to rally your forces. Get your team in place, coth down (or walk, whatever) then do the turn in and start the clock.

Don't be dense. If you didn't spawn the mob, do not touch it. Its that simple.

[Ele]

The BPs can be sold in EC - most of Ragefires loot is No Drop - thats the key difference

IF they random and sell the BPs for 20-40k to get 12 people to camp out and show up everyday, they will average 1.5-3kp per fake Trak. Bring 18 and it drops to 1.1-2.2k per person. Bring 24 and you get 833-1.6k per person.

There are far better things they can do with their time than farm fake trak and leave their character camped on poop mountain.

If a new trak BP is coming in to world every day, those 20-40k prices won't stay that high for long. Plus the normal traks every ~3 days.

Bards 46+ are so few and far between compared to other classes, they can easily boycott the gut sales from the farmers. Plus they don't have a need for the guts until they have the white scale anyway. If guilds are farming fake trak, they will quickly over flow with surplus guts and nothing to do with them.

[Swish]

Don't be dense. If you didn't spawn the mob, do not touch it. Its that simple.

This is how it should be, the community needs to learn to be nice to each other and stop relying on Omni etc to be a single shining example <3

[Spyder73]

IF they random and sell the BPs for 20-40k to get 12 people to camp out and show up everyday, they will average 1.5-3kp per fake Trak. Bring 18 and it drops to 1.1-2.2k per person. Bring 24 and you get 833-1.6k per person.

There are far better things they can do with their time than farm fake trak and leave their character camped on poop mountain.

If a new trak BP is coming in to world every day, those 20-40k prices won't stay that high for long. Plus the normal traks every ~3 days.

Trak dies in under 5 minutes on Blue, this is including the time it takes to actually kill him, the raid guilds have it down to a fine science - Logging in for 15 minutes once a day to basically /random for 20k....I guess we will see who is right, i predict extreme farm fest mode.

P.S. - Guts will be the least valued item from this whole thing, it would not surprise me if they went on rot status very quickly and any bard who wants them can just have them.

[arsenalpow]

This is how it should be, the community needs to learn to be nice to each other and stop relying on Omni etc to be a single shining example <3

The issue I have is someone turning in then taking however long they want. Hours maybe? Twenty minutes is fine. Mobilize your force, go do the turnin, kill the dragon. Everyone needs to stop thinking of it like Ragefire where you turn in first then solve all the other problems after.

[maestrom]

The issue I have is someone turning in then taking however long they want. Hours maybe? Twenty minutes is fine. Mobilize your force, go do the turnin, kill the dragon. Everyone needs to stop thinking of it like Ragefire where you turn in first then solve all the other problems after.

Whats wrong with them taking their time? It's not anyone else's spawn than theirs.

UDB pops when Trak is up, so his timer isn't based on Trak. Is it based on fake trak? Or is it just based on UDB?

[Axlrose]

Before I faded from playing Live, Trak's guts was the last piece I needed to complete my epic. The red scale I remember getting from some monster down in The Hole while the white scale was lifted from Gorenaire's corpse. To continue my good luck, on the first try with the mob from Kedge (P-something), the backbone dropped for me too.

While I am quite some time away from starting and running through my epics (multiple characters), it does sound daunting that as a newbie, players will freely shower you with gear, items, and spells to help you along. But the higher you get, the more cut throat it seems to be among the raiding groups.

I understand there is "value" in these items. But with the game basically at the end of it progression, eventually the value will be lost due to flooding of the market, right?

[Swish]

Oh but you know "Guild X" would just love to moan if a smaller guild was taking longer to mobilize than THEY feel is necessary.

Let guilds do it at their own pace? Not happy with how long they're taking? How's this for an idea...HELP THEM!

Stop looking at every encounter as an opportunity to get someone's 4th alt (bard) that they never play an item. People sink a lot of time into this, don't be cutthroat about it.

When is BDAs own private server coming up? I think that would suit you all, free from the restraints of a community holding you back with their inefficiencies and true casual nature.

[icedwards]

Before I faded from playing Live, Trak's guts was the last piece I needed to complete my epic. The red scale I remember getting from some monster down in The Hole while the white scale was lifted from Gorenaire's corpse. To continue my good luck, on the first try with the mob from Kedge (P-something), the backbone dropped for me too.

While I am quite some time away from starting and running through my epics (multiple characters), it does sound daunting that as a newbie, players will freely shower you with gear, items, and spells to help you along. But the higher you get, the more cut throat it seems to be among the raiding groups.

I understand there is "value" in these items. But with the game basically at the end of it progression, eventually the value will be lost due to flooding of the market, right?

I doubt you actually need to worry.

To put it into context, Lodizal and Keldor Dek'whatever spawn every 18 hours (Lodi has some unclassic variance though). Both drop items 100% of the time that go for 40k+. Neither of them get more than a handful of people out each day. To think that 12-18 high level neckbeards will park a kill force in a remote location like Seb to take a shot at sniping the UDB is a little crazy.

[Daldaen]

The issue I have is someone turning in then taking however long they want. Hours maybe? Twenty minutes is fine. Mobilize your force, go do the turnin, kill the dragon. Everyone needs to stop thinking of it like Ragefire where you turn in first then solve all the other problems after.

Why does it matter how long they take?

It doesn't delay the respawn timer at all as far as I'm aware, so it really doesn't impact anyone else. The respawn time should start from non-KoS UDB despawn upon Lute Body turn in.

If they want to take 20 hours clearing down to Trakanon and wiping 15 times to finally kill it. It should still respawn 4 hours later.

I can understand a disagreement with a "turn in first, figure out your kill force later". But if you disagree With that you're basically forcing guilds to have a kill force present near spawn time. Which is dumb when they're either click spamming or rolling against maybe 4-5 other people. You're asking 4-5 different 20 man kill forces to be available within 20 minutes in a very remote zone that requires a 20min clear down or a CotH setup... That's not reasonable to expect of many guilds. Many of whom can kill Vox or Trakanon or Gorenaire.

[maestrom]

Lets keep this civil bros.

The purpose of UDB, VSR, and Triggered Fay was to give casuals a way to get their epics without competing with raiders. Its very clearly stated in the patch message. It may be that, most of the time, a casual guild is capable of taking these targets down in less than 20 minutes. If that's the case, awesome. But what if a casual guild takes its first ever shot at UDB trak and wipes out with trak at 2%? Should Rampage be able to kill trak take the guts BP and roll out? Even if they leave the guts for bard, should they get to keep the BP?

Your lute your trak. Period. If your guild wants to give up and let someone else take it in exchange for the guts, thats fine, but its your guild's trak and your guild can keep trying until it decides to call it a night.

[Ele]

Trak dies in under 5 minutes on Blue, this is including the time it takes to actually kill him, the raid guilds have it down to a fine science - Logging in for 15 minutes once a day to basically /random for 20k....I guess we will see who is right, i predict extreme farm fest mode.

UDB is a little more complicated than doing a normal rush trak engage. Adding in the need to do the turn in + kill the aggro UDB to spawn trak.

If there is as much competition for UDB/fake as some are prophesying, then cut the values dramatically, if you have a 33-50% success rate on turn-in FTE with 1-2 more guilds vying for UDB.

P.S. - Guts will be the least valued item from this whole thing, it would not surprise me if they went on rot status very quickly and any bard who wants them can just have them.

If guts go rot status and bards that need can freely have them, then what is the issue?

Guilds fighting and training each other over a 20k BP after they each invested a white and red scale for the opportunity? How many bards/guilds have an extra white and red scale they can/will dedicate to a lute?

[Swish]

How are the casual guilds (BDA certainly isnt that) ever meant to learn if they have their triggered mobs taken away after 1 wipe or the 20 minute mark being reached?

Same old guilds looking to pounce in an ever more competitive raid scene. For the community's sake, have a word with yourselves and leave smaller guilds that havent killed 1000 Traks to deal with the encounter. Help them verbally etc, give them advice if they ask for it.

Not sure why doing something such as "helping" is so vilified here, not in the spirit of Classic EverQuest imo...especially considering its hard enough for emerging guilds to move up to bigger things.

[Atmas]

I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (yet). If it's a shit show a month after the patch, then something can be worked out.

Yep, this is probably a very pointless thread. Treating this like a Fermi problem:
-There are about 1500 active players a night, the total population is higher but we really only care about the number of people who can log on per night.

-Bards are 1/14 of all classes but I think a less represented class overall so I will say 1/25 (there are some other factors here like how many actually play a bard past 50)
-Lets say the average player has 2 toons they play to sufficient level for this to matter. (I know some have many more, many have none at all)

3000 * 1/21 * 2 = 285ish

Now this is kind of hard for me because of generally playing in hardcore guilds. The average likeliness of an end game bard having an epic is? 40%? (WAG) So we say

143 * .6 = 86

Then another difficult one is what is the chance your guild has a scale for your bard. I don't really think every guild has a stock pile so maybe 1/3 chance your guild, assuming you have one, has one for you.

29

The number of days a guild that actively raids and goes after targets would be willing to have people do this for you and nothing else where they would have toons parked etc. Basically the likeliness that you can get a raid force ready at the spawn time that is reoccurring (another WAG, think Im being generous) 3/7

12 per night and probably drop pretty quick.

All This could all be way off and the numbers might be swollen for the first couple of days but I guarantee they will tapper off quickly. Consider the 8th ring quest which the lead up work can be done in a day, used on multiple characters, sometimes done twice for the same toon, and doesn't require 3 groups to complete only has nightly rollers in the teens. Also people aren't making new epic level bards nearly as quickly.

So maybe expect this to be an issue for a month? Im sure there will be some farming like there is with Ragefire but on the whole much less likely.

In conclusion / TL;DR there are more bard swarming complaints than posts about bard epics. Clearly bards should be banned.

[Man0warr]

Whats wrong with them taking their time? It's not anyone else's spawn than theirs.

UDB pops when Trak is up, so his timer isn't based on Trak. Is it based on fake trak? Or is it just based on UDB?

Why does it matter how long they take?

You turn in your epic lute body to this UDB. He returns the lute body immediately (appears in your inventory), becomes enraged, he needs to be killed. He is around level 55-56. Ask to have Rune V cast on you, as the Undead Bard will hit hard, this way you can make it back to your group alive. When the enraged undead bard is killed, Trakanon spawns. He drops Trak guts 100% of the time, and also drops a Trakanonian BP or class chest item (random) but no teeth. If you don't kill this Trakanon in time, the Trak clone will despawn after 20 minutes. UDB will not respawn until another 18 +/- 4 hours. If the real Trakanon spawns during this time, he will kill the UDB.

Relevant bolded. You can't take your time - if you don't engage within 20 min it depops.

[Atmas]

I did all that math and almost forgot the best part. Two mobs which spawn once a week drop those scales. Let's be generous and say 2 a week appear on the server. That means way more spawn opportunities than are even maintainable given drop rate. Also as someone mentioned 20 minutes until despawn so this thread is moot.

[dafier]

Personally, leave as is but give guts to turn in bro/girl.

[Zombiehasslehoff]

It should be a roll off for guts /ran 1000 and /ran 1500 if you stuck around to help the night before.

[Erati]

forget what is the consensus with the triggered Trak - does he poison AE?

if he doesnt, he easily could be kited for a lil bit so the 20 min depop timer is not that huge of deal if we respect YLYT ( Your Lute, Your Trak)

[maestrom]

I was under the impression he was essentially a full powered trak.

I was not aware of the 20 minute depop timer though, which makes the whole thing moot.

Question though: On mobs that depop after a certain amount of time. Does engaging reset the timer or merely pause it?

[Erati]

I was under the impression he was essentially a full powered trak.

I was not aware of the 20 minute depop timer though, which makes the whole thing moot.

Question though: On mobs that depop after a certain amount of time. Does engaging reset the timer or merely pause it?

If hes like the Kromzek Captain ( depops after 15 ish min if unaggro'd ) you can aggro and kite him around forever and the second he becomes unaggro past the time he would have depopped- he will poof

[Daldaen]

That's a Trak depop right?

The depop time on UDB isn't listed. It's possible the UDB sits up in post-turnin-KoS form forever and then once he dies and fake Trak spawns, then that mob has a depop timer.

[Verath]

First come first serve. It's a video game. Chill out people.

[Oleris]

That's a Trak depop right?

The depop time on UDB isn't listed. It's possible the UDB sits up in post-turnin-KoS form forever and then once he dies and fake Trak spawns, then that mob has a depop timer.

I think it's like ragefire, stays up until real trak spawns, then kills it.

[Ravager]

I don't see anyone doing this.

I can see us keeping a communal Lute Body to get bards their Trak guts so that once they get scales they are done... I absolutely don't see us turning in Lute Body to try for the 1 BP or to sell Trak guts.

I can totally see Omni doing this. Have you met Gats?

Even if the guts rot, that doesn't make them free. How much rotted in VP over the years that had a 250k price tag?

[Man0warr]

I think it's like ragefire, stays up until real trak spawns, then kills it.

He's talking about the Enraged bard that you kill to trigger after the turn in. Like the aggro'd human Ragefire.

If you drop aggro on the Enraged bard does it depop? Does aggro human Ragefire?

[Ele]

So it has been a few days now.

What has the situation been so far?

[Oleris]

So it has been a few days now.

What has the situation been so far?

every guild that can't kill vox or gore trying to buy white scales :D

Also, wtb white scales for my bard.

[Kileras]

every guild that can't kill vox or gore trying to buy white scales :D

Also, wtb white scales for my bard.

WTB white scales.


also, anyone been sniffing out proper timers on these guys? I know for a fact VSR is not "classic" per my understanding of classic timers, and wondering if UDB is the same.

Single pop of UDB per trak kill? multiples? FOr some reason my google foo is not what it used to be and haven't been able to find clear information on what it was like during our "era".

[Man0warr]

UDB is supposed to be 18-24 hours after a Trak kill, and he spawned and was up for a long time yesterday before being triggered.

[arsenalpow]

I got a few white scales, he me up with an offer, no I don't want to haggle.

[Kileras]

UDB is supposed to be 18-24 hours after a Trak kill, and he spawned and was up for a long time yesterday before being triggered.

any info on if he is the "e-z" trak and if he did indeed drop a BP as well?

[arsenalpow]

He dropped guts and cloak of piety and the fight seemed close to a normal Trak engagement. He shroomed a person, fired a few AEs, tried to cast some dumb spells, blinded some folks. The usual fare.

[Ele]

I know for a fact VSR is not "classic" per my understanding of classic timers, and wondering if UDB is the same.


What is VSR doing now? Because VSR's spawn time under goes another change in a forth coming patch.

[Oleris]

Well, tell me your price chest in PM.

[falkun]

So UDB seems to be working as intended. He was up for HOURS yesterday, and BDA casually COH'ed down, cleared jumpy/prot, then did the UDB turn in and wrecked Trak. At no time did we have any competition. Trak dropped guts and cloak. He blinded me, shroomed our tank, and then killed me with an AE. He seems like a full fledged Trakanon. The "competition" for UDB seems to be non-existent.

[arsenalpow]

So UDB seems to be working as intended. He was up for HOURS yesterday, and BDA casually COH'ed down, cleared jumpy/prot, then did the UDB turn in and wrecked Trak. At no time did we have any competition. Trak dropped guts and cloak. He blinded me, shroomed our tank, and then killed me with an AE. He seems like a full fledged Trakanon. The "competition" for UDB seems to be non-existent.

No one has the scales right now.

[fastboy21]

I got a few white scales, he me up with an offer, no I don't want to haggle.

if you don't want to haggle it would help if you gave folks your asking price :p

[falkun]

No one has the scales right now.

And since the rate at which scales will enter the market is 1/4 the rate at which guts can enter the market, UDB will never be the bottleneck. And if someone decides to farm guts for MQ, the guts will tank in value because of the lack of scales. And if someone decides to farm UDBs for BPs, the already low value of BPs will tank further. Then this cost will have to be divided by the 12 (a minimum?) it takes to kill UDB-Trak and the ROI will be terrible.

[fastboy21]

And since the rate at which scales will enter the market is 1/4 the rate at which guts can enter the market, UDB will never be the bottleneck. And if someone decides to farm guts for MQ, the guts will tank in value because of the lack of scales. And if someone decides to farm UDBs for BPs, the already low value of BPs will tank further. Then this cost will have to be divided by the 12 (a minimum?) it takes to kill UDB-Trak and the ROI will be terrible.

when the price of one good (trak guts) goes down the demand for a related/complimentary good (white scale) goes up. when the demand for a good goes up (white scale) the price of the good goes up.

i.e. white scales are going up in price.

how much they go up is still in question. it hasn't been enough time to see where the new market price will settle at. considering that the bottleneck for the bard epic now is mostly the cost of the whitescale the value of the scale is extremely high compared to the old market price. My guess is about 90-120k after the first few weeks of real opportunism....slowly decreasing over time.

also, although not as dramatic, price of red scale should also be going up a bit for a short while.

[Man0warr]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

[Ele]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

Nortlav should be in with the epic revamps.


Nagafen, Ragefire, Talendor, and Nortlav make for plenty of red scales.

[maestrom]

Nortlav should be in with the epic revamps.


Nagafen, Ragefire, Talendor, and Nortlav make for plenty of red scales.

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

[fastboy21]

Shouldn't red scale drop in Hole now though?

correct. i would still think with the sudden burst of demand (as about 50ish bards suddenly need to buy one to finish their epic) you can get away with some short term price gauging if you wanted to.

[Man0warr]

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

Green scales drop off Hoshkar eventually, not sure if it was this patch or later.

[fastboy21]

It was prob a combination of oversight and wars having alternative weapon setups that were as good or better for warriors than epic by the time they got around to doing fixing this stuff.

Its EQ...lots of stuff never made "good sense".

[Kileras]

white/green scales do seem a bit absurd. the urge for non classic in me is strong in regards to these. Would it really be such a huge turnoff to make them drop off a few other mobs?

[maestrom]

Green scales drop off Hoshkar eventually, not sure if it was this patch or later.

I believe you that they did this, but doesn't that strike anyone else as weird?

One of the things that I think is fun in the game is trying to figure out what motivated the developers to do things the way they did things.

UDB, Fay and VSR changes were unambiguously designed to increase the ability of family/casual guilds to finish epics in the traditional go-out-and-slay-the-dragon way. Epics were not "uber loot", they were long personal quests that were seen as a rite of passage/culmination of the individual efforts that players--at least they were viewed this way once Velious came about.

So it seems weird to make changes to so many epics that make them more available to the casual-raid groups and and then leave Bard and Warrior epics essentially just as unavailable as they were before. Adding Green Scales to Hoshkar doesn't increase the availability or warrior epics to casual raiders (unless you consider buying them availability, I do not and it seems like the dev's didn't necessarily intend them to be made available in this way). So why were green scales and white scales overlooked?

I assume no original dev's have ever spoken to this particular issue, but maybe someone with better research skills (Ele?) could check?

white/green scales do seem a bit absurd. the urge for non classic in me is strong in regards to these. Would it really be such a huge turnoff to make them drop off a few other mobs?

Hehe. Here is where I out myself. I've never been a "classic for the sake of classic" person when it comes to the SYSTEMS (buff timers, colored target window, auto-stand on cast....) of the game. But in this case, when Dev intent has been so clearly documented in other epics, I would even advocate for non-classic CONTENT in the form of a nortlav-styled encounter for green and white scales in an appropriate dungeon. Maybe CT for Green Scales and some-place else for White scales. Permafrost would be the obvious choice, but having Vox in there already seems a bit redundant. Maybe a triggered no-drop scales only, non-52 capped Vox?

Rozdak Coldscorn?

[Ele]

How were white and green scales overlooked?

I don't mean here. I mean back in the day. Did they just "forget"? There were enough bards and warriors back then to put in UDB and Nortlav, this would do little to increase access to epics for Bards/Wars.

Not sure. Bards were quite vocal about the lack of access to white dragon scales. Considering most either had to stay sub 53 for Vox, lead but not participate in a pick-up Vox raid or go all the way to 57+ to be able to stand up against Gorenaire.

This Concert Hall poster had a decent rant about it here (http://web.archive.org/web/20010420021646/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallthecriticschair.showMessage?topicID =152.topic). Also here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020128021653/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallthecriticschair.showMessage?topicID =203.topic), here, (https://web.archive.org/web/20020102154819/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm8.showMessage?topicID=11 2.topic) and lots of people traded for it (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419012334/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showMessage?topicID=8944. topic). People started coming up with theories like this one (http://web.archive.org/web/20010420020630/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallfrm7.showMessage?topicID=227.topic) or this one (https://web.archive.org/web/20010617051603/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm8.showMessage?topicID=7. topic) that there was an unsolved quest or unfound NPC that would provide the white scale, but none were found (whether that was on purpose or a mistake by Verant who knows).

Hoshkar starts dropping green scales in about 3 months (June 2001). So warriors do get a boost in that department.

Thott had this to say (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419012334/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showMessage?topicID=8944. topic):
Level 60, red scale off Talendor, white scale off Gorenaire.

Desbarolis wrote:
Quote:

These quest's were made for roughly level 50+ players. They were all started in response to the paladin epic, which was originally geared for paladins of nagafen and vox level ranges (and higher), which includes level 47+ paladins.


Paladins have a new epic as well, and it requires the original FA. Verant has stated on numerous occasions that epic weapons are intended to be level 60 weapons, not level 50.

You're 49. That means that for 11 levels you will be fighting in progressively harder areas, and will see weapons drop, progressively better weapons...and all of them will be massively inferior to your current weapon.

I don't see how anyone can not see this as broken.

Unfortunately, there isn't any easy way to ensure lower level people can't get higher level people to help them get an item.

I guess if Verant really wanted the epics to be level 60 weapons, they should have made the end quest NPC respond only to level 60 characters.

The epic quest would then be get all the pieces together, the same as it is now....and level to 60. "You are not yet experienced enough to control a weapon of this power...go, learn more, and return."

For those that got the weapon before 60, good for you, I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything else. It's a great weapon. But you have to admit, it's not right.

--Thott
Guildleader
<Afterlife>

[Ele]

Another thing is that each epic quest seems to have been designed by different devs or groups with not much coordination between them as evidenced by the huge disparity in difficultly and rarity of component items. i.e. Rogue/Monk/Shaman v. Mage/Warrior/Bard. Others having insanely rare drops e.g. Cazic Skin for Wiz epic. There were only a handful across all servers when Velious dropped and then just a few months until Broken Golem fix was added.

Cleric epic is relatively straight forward and "easy," but Verant did not "fix" the Ragefire situation for over 1.5 years despite the very vocal outcry by clerics and guilds. If you can even call the Skyfire shards/Ragefire a fix.

Not many people recall, but rogues were much rarer on live than they are here. Rogues were one of the worst classes without decent weapon itemization or even evade for a large part of classic, that is until Kunark and Velious came along. People didn't have 4+ years to twink a rogue and foreknowledge that easy 15 damage epics were coming.

[krazyGlue]

We don't have this shit show on red

[Ele]

We don't have this shit show on red

When everyone is in the same guild and farms the crap out of Kunark for 5 years, I wouldn't see why you guys would have that problem.

[Oleris]

Another thing is that each epic quest seems to have been designed by different devs or groups with not much coordination between them as evidenced by the huge disparity in difficultly and rarity of component items. i.e. Rogue/Monk/Shaman v. Mage/Warrior/Bard. Others having insanely rare drops e.g. Cazic Skin for Wiz epic. There were only a handful across all servers when Velious dropped and then just a few months until Broken Golem fix was added.

Cleric epic is relatively straight forward and "easy," but Verant did not "fix" the Ragefire situation for over 1.5 years despite the very vocal outcry by clerics and guilds. If you can even call the Skyfire shards/Ragefire a fix.

Not many people recall, but rogues were much rarer on live than they are here. Rogues were one of the worst classes without decent weapon itemization or even evade for a large part of classic, that is until Kunark and Velious came along. People didn't have 4+ years to twink a rogue and foreknowledge that easy 15 damage epics were coming.

2 months ago on the eq live twitch stream they were talking about designing the epic quests. It was split into 4-5 different people with distinct guidelines for the quests. 3 of which were there talking about the new expansion. Might want to check it out if ya want to learn more about the quests.

[Ele]

2 months ago on the eq live twitch stream they were talking about designing the epic quests. It was split into 4-5 different people with distinct guidelines for the quests. 3 of which were there talking about the new expansion. Might want to check it out if ya want to learn more about the quests.

Cool, will have to check that out.

[maestrom]

Not sure. Bards were quite vocal about the lack of access to white dragon scales. Considering most either had to stay sub 53 for Vox, lead but not participate in a pick-up Vox raid or go all the way to 57+ to be able to stand up against Gorenaire.

This Concert Hall poster had a decent rant about it here (http://web.archive.org/web/20010420021646/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallthecriticschair.showMessage?topicID =152.topic). Also here (http://web.archive.org/web/20020128021653/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallthecriticschair.showMessage?topicID =203.topic), here, (https://web.archive.org/web/20020102154819/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm8.showMessage?topicID=11 2.topic) and lots of people traded for it (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419012334/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showMessage?topicID=8944. topic). People started coming up with theories like this one (http://web.archive.org/web/20010420020630/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallfrm7.showMessage?topicID=227.topic) or this one (https://web.archive.org/web/20010617051603/http://pub45.ezboard.com/feqdivabardsofeverquestfrm8.showMessage?topicID=7. topic) that there was an unsolved quest or unfound NPC that would provide the white scale, but none were found (whether that was on purpose or a mistake by Verant who knows).

Hoshkar starts dropping green scales in about 3 months (June 2001). So warriors do get a boost in that department.

Thott had this to say (http://web.archive.org/web/20010419012334/http://pub5.ezboard.com/ftheconcerthallbackstage.showMessage?topicID=8944. topic):

Ahh Thott...

Ever the man of the people. It's no wonder he abandoned Everquest for WoW where literally every item in the game has a required level on it.

If anyone manages to track down the Twitch, I'd love to watch it. Everquestlive doesn't seem to post any of the old streams.

[Oleris]

Ahh Thott...

Ever the man of the people. It's no wonder he abandoned Everquest for WoW where literally every item in the game has a required level on it.

If anyone manages to track down the Twitch, I'd love to watch it. Everquestlive doesn't seem to post any of the old streams.

https://youtu.be/gGKIvEgOyaI

somewhere in there when asked about if there will be any new epic quests.

[maestrom]

https://youtu.be/gGKIvEgOyaI

somewhere in there when asked about if there will be any new epic quests.

Ahh thanks. I actually skipped around in that video listening to epics and missed it. I'll check again.

[maestrom]

It looks like there's a Q&A after their little presentations that has been cut off.

I didn't hear anything about designing epic quests in that video.

bummer.

[Ele]

So it has been a few weeks now.

What has the situation been so far?

[DarthMartigan]

Pretty sure the drought of white scales leads to guilds deciding to do it, tracking, then taking down alone.