Lets Talks About Velious Binding Rules

[Daldaen]

Problem:

Players can currently bind in Velious INDOOR dungeons. This is not a classic mechanic.

Binding Guide 2001 (http://web.archive.org/web/20011217064415/http://eqatlas.com/bindguide.html)

Exactly where a caster can bind themselves depends on what area of the game we're talking about. In the area of the original game (i.e. Antonica, Faydwer, and Odus) a caster can bind themself anywhere, inside or out. In Kunark and Velious, however, they are only able to bind themselves in outdoor areas, and can not bind themselves in dungeons.

Basically what we have right now is an issue where Velious is allowing players to bind themselves anywhere they want (except Kael, which has restrictions on binding outside of entrance areas). Players should only be able to bind in outdoor zones or in cities. However currently players on P99 can bind in indoor dungeons.

This is not classic and it poses an enormous balance issue. Indoor Velious dungeons should not allow players to bind in, caster or Melee with Locket. This means people on P99 can incorrectly bind in:


Tower of Frozen Shadow
Crystal Caverns
Velketor's Labryinth
Dragon Necropolis
Temple of Veeshan
Sleeper's Tomb


For the lower level zones this doesn't present too much of a balance concern. However in Velks, DN, ToV and ST you are able to do some ridiculous trains and pulls that weren't remotely possible in classic via using monks binding with lockets, Necros FDed with non-aggroed pets, instant gate potions and TL boxes. You can bind mages in safe spots in ToV or Velks or DN and gate to instantly set up CotH chains as well.

There is no evidence to suggest you could ever bind in any of these indoor Kunark or Velious zones. All posts about bind spots from classic refer to "behind Sontalak at ToV" or "outside of Sebilis". No one was binding inside these Kunark/Velious dungeons because it wasn't possible, and never has been on Live. Even today you cannot bind characters in these high end dungeons.

Evidence:

Halls of Testing Guide (http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=Veeshan)

- Casters bind at the two Colums before enttering ToV

EQClerics 2001 Bind Talk (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3192&highlight=Bind+Velious)

Lately? Behind Sontalak at the entrance to Temple of Veeshan.

Greetings!

Outside ToV behind Sontalak.

Outside ToV behind Sontolak, popular spot....

I also have my druid bound there so I can go wherever I want for other raids, bank etc, and gate back.

Hehehe, same as a lot of others. Outside ToV at the zone-in pillar behind Sontalak.

EQClerics HoT Guide 2001 (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10868&highlight=Sontalak+Bind)

1. Getting to ToV will be easy as you are not KoS to CoV - so you dont have to worry about Sontalak. Have all casters bind right outside

Allakhazam Zone Comments (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=116&p=2#comments)

For those who have visited this place I have a few questions I would like to ask :

1 ) Where is the nearest zone other than ToV you can bind in (also tanks)

1) Yes Skyshrine for melees, but casters can bind right there in WW. I'd just be very careful as to where you bind there....

I'll dig for more but everything here points to suggesting you could not bind inside. There isn't any reason everyone would bind outside when Sontalak could be trained on them when instead they could bind inside ToV in the safe entry room.

Indoor Kunark/Velious dungeons should all be flagged NO bind.

Solution:


Any player with a bind location in one of the above zones should have their bind location reset to East Commonlands (or some default safe zone).
Prevent any player from binding in these zones in the future.

[Exmo]

A+

This is going to make TOV Pulls more entertaining.

[Phantasm]

i agree with and support this message. Will also mean coth chains down to Trak would become non-existent which would really liven up the race

[Juevento]

This is Gods work you are doing. You might have passed Ele for prime Classhole!

[Ele]

i agree with and support this message. Will also mean coth chains down to Trak would become non-existent which would really liven up the race

There shouldn't be anyone bound in Seb/HS/KC, mages camp on the ledge and bind at the orb outside or have someone that can gate/evac to zone in start the chain.

[Freakish]

You cannot bind in Crystal caverns. Have you tested these zones?

[Erati]

i agree with and support this message. Will also mean coth chains down to Trak would become non-existent which would really liven up the race

whats this have to do with Trak coth chains?

[Erati]

You cannot bind in Crystal caverns. Have you tested these zones?

You could bind in TOFS on Beta server - havnt tested on live but Id wager u still can

[Daldaen]

You cannot bind in Crystal caverns. Have you tested these zones?

I've tested ToV, DN, And Velks on P99 live. Those ones certainly allow players to bind in zone, and it should not allow that.

It does appear the CC one is classicly working as intended thanks to Classhole Ele:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211806&highlight=Crystal+Caverns+Bind

I just grouped up all the in-door dungeons. I don't personally have any toons who have leveled in CC or ToFS so I don't have much experience there.

I forgot to include Siren's Grotto as well.

[Man0warr]

ToV is the worst offender. Not being able to bind at WToV/Mischief/other spots would mean people would have to come up with a lot more strats for pulls than just TL Boxes on Monks/necros.

It would also give Dragon factioned guilds a proper advantage on WToV dragons.

[Colgate]

you could (mostly) do the same pulls using rez boxes instead of translocates/gates and binds

[Redi]

Red needs recharging so we can bind our melees. I don't understand how blue can bind every monk 20 times a day and we have a finite number for entire lifetime of server.

[arsenalpow]

Red needs recharging so we can bind our melees. I don't understand how blue can bind every monk 20 times a day and we have a finite number for entire lifetime of server.

It's still like 20k a pop though.

[Scryll]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=116&p=2#comments

Quite a few posts here from back in 2001 mentions that you can't bind in ToV and closest city to bind in is Skyshrine. So I guess you should only be allowed to bind outside ToV.

[jcr4990]

ToV is the worst offender. Not being able to bind at WToV/Mischief/other spots would mean people would have to come up with a lot more strats for pulls than just TL Boxes on Monks/necros.

It would also give Dragon factioned guilds a proper advantage on WToV dragons.
Mischief is an outdoor zone. Unless you're referring to binding at Mischief entrance in ToV in which case carry on.

[Efwan]

You could bind in TOFS on Beta server - havnt tested on live but Id wager u still can

I've tested ToV, DN, And Velks on P99 live. Those ones certainly allow players to bind in zone, and it should not allow that.

It does appear the CC one is classicly working as intended thanks to Classhole Ele:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211806&highlight=Crystal+Caverns+Bind

I just grouped up all the in-door dungeons. I don't personally have any toons who have leveled in CC or ToFS so I don't have much experience there.

I forgot to include Siren's Grotto as well.

I have a character bound on the top floor in TOFS, so definitely can be bound there.

[Ele]

Unless you're referring to binding at Mischief entrance in ToV in which case carry on.

Pretty sure he is referencing the LTK/WToV zone out, PoM Cubbie, and HoT safespot (among other "safe" spots).

[Mezzmur]

I could've swore my mage was PoM Cubby bound on live, but if you're going to do this, you should also remove the non-classic roaming flurries in the "safe" halls preventing the classic use of those locations.

[Erati]

big dif between not classic aka drakes that get added later and a mechanic that never / still doesnt exist (binding in those zones)

[Redi]

"Classic" isn't the all encompassing reasoning for any change anymore, many things have veered off that path purposely

Unfortunately

[Erati]

"Classic" isn't the all encompassing reasoning for any change anymore, many things have veered off that path purposely

Unfortunately

This isnt a 'classic' or not debate as this was something that literally never existed ever.

There are not posts saying "Now you can ....." or "After the patch, you can no longer.." in regards to binding in those zones- nope, quite simply the spell shouldnt function there at all, much like harmony indoors. Randomly giving druids the ability to harmony in specific indoor zones would get changed here, so should this.

[Daldaen]

I could've swore my mage was PoM Cubby bound on live, but if you're going to do this, you should also remove the non-classic roaming flurries in the "safe" halls preventing the classic use of those locations.

Completely agree on the topic of Flurry drakes.

I don't doubt characters got camped up in the safe halls in NToV all the time. However there is no evidence to support binding inside of ToV for any characters.

You'd think there would be comments about binding clerics or mages for CotH/Corpse recovery if that were a strategy, or you'd think people would simply bind inside of ToV in a safe zone in room rather than in WW directly behind Sontalak, but there's nothing.

[Tankdan]

I was NTOV cubby bound in Velious/Luclin/PoP era on my 60 shaman, just cant remember which expansion. Definitely wasnt PoP as I was in PoKnowledge, my guess is late Velious. I also remember that cubby being a LOT safer than it is on P99. I never died there on live, mostly because the zone was empty half the time.

[Endonde]

Completely agree on the topic of Flurry drakes.
However there is no evidence to support binding inside of ToV for any characters.


To be completely fair here, there really isn't any clear evidence you couldn't bind in ToV either.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it seems we're going mostly off the assumption that if clerics could have bound in ToV they would have on live, which I think is pretty flimsy.

[nicemace]

i was bound at PoM cubby from very early in velious.

[Erati]

Not one suggestion for binding inside for pulling strats or CR recovery/ mobilization, plethora of evidence telling you Skyshrine is the closest zone for MELEE to bind as well as CASTERS being instructed to bind behind Sont outside ToV to raid the zone.....

You are also unable to currently bind there on EQ live right now - why is there no mention of this change if you 'could' bind there in the past, it seems like a pretty big one.

[JurisDictum]

you could (mostly) do the same pulls using rez boxes instead of translocates/gates and binds

Welp, that's what people have to do then. There are reasons I won't get into that the top guilds are dropping extensive amounts of platinum on locket binds and insta-gate potions, rather than res boxing.

Not classic, not even EQ.

[Daldaen]

To be completely fair here, there really isn't any clear evidence you couldn't bind in ToV either.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it seems we're going mostly off the assumption that if clerics could have bound in ToV they would have on live, which I think is pretty flimsy.

Velious Binding Guide (http://web.archive.org/web/20011217064415/http://eqatlas.com/bindguide.html)

Exactly where a caster can bind themselves depends on what area of the game we're talking about. In the area of the original game (i.e. Antonica, Faydwer, and Odus) a caster can bind themself anywhere, inside or out. In Kunark and Velious, however, they are only able to bind themselves in outdoor areas, and can not bind themselves in dungeons.


ToV is a dungeon. Which the Velious binding guide explicitly states you cannot bind in. That's the primary evidence. It is not a city like Kael or Skyshrine or Thurgadin, and therefore no one could bind there.

The secondary is the fact that everyone states they bind outside of ToV, which backs up the primary. If ANY of them stated they bound inside, even just one, it would collapse. But no one states that.

On live today, you still cannot bind in Kunark or Velious dungeons.

Again, if any of you claiming you remember having Guildies bound in ToV, look up some evidence to back that up. There is nothing I've found to suggest that is factual.

[Ele]

Nov. 11, 2001 comment saying you could not bind in ToV @ PoM cubbie from the Locket of Escape page on Alla. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1163

Why the **** would you pay for this? Sure thats great you can bind yourself almost anywhere with it as a melee. BFD
The most convenient place for melees to bind is in a city so they have access to merchants and banks. Sure being bound at PoM would be great (except I'm sure ya can't anyway, as you can't bind in ToV, and I really doubt you can bind in POM itself either), but the freaking novelty would wear off after about five minutes.
Total gimpness to pay large sums of pp for this, or trade a fungi tunic or whatever. Gotta be one of the more idiotic things I've read.

[Endonde]

Edit - Ele posted some good evidence.

[Daldaen]

I love Ele's ClassicQuest.

I checked PoM Alla page to see for a quote like that, didn't think to check on Locket page!

[Erati]

The guy is speculating tho "I'm sure you cant" and "I really doubt" - hardly anything thats actually followed up with factual experimentation in game by the fellow. According to Dald's bind rules PoM is not a city nor an indoor dungeon thusly binding should be fine like any other outdoor non-dungeon zone.

Plane of Fear for example....

[JurisDictum]

The guy is speculating tho "I'm sure you cant" and "I really doubt" - hardly anything thats actually followed up with factual experimentation in game by the fellow. According to Dald's bind rules PoM is not a city nor an indoor dungeon thusly binding should be fine like any other outdoor non-dungeon zone.

Plane of Fear for example....

Yea, your agenda is pretty obvious.

[Erati]

Yea, your agenda is pretty obvious.

Did you read the quote ? He is speculating that since you cant bind in ToV then that goes for PoM as well ( since you get there from inside ToV). Its solely an assumption based on circumstantial evidence from the zone you enter the plane from from despite the fact the zones are nothing at all similar or even in the same plane of existence...

Its a very classic assumption to have - like anti-camp radius or NPCs stealing your corpse when you get to close ( aka get charmed )

[Pint]

Pretty overwhelming evidence ITT, great work daldaen.

[Ele]

The guy is speculating tho "I'm sure you cant" and "I really doubt" - hardly anything thats actually followed up with factual experimentation in game by the fellow. According to Dald's bind rules PoM is not a city nor an indoor dungeon thusly binding should be fine like any other outdoor non-dungeon zone.

Plane of Fear for example....

The comment I posted, the guy speculates (incorrectly) as to binding in PoM, which you can and is easily provable during classic era.

He earlier states being bound at PoM would be great and then unequivocally states "as you can't bind in ToV."

[Thadeus]

Nice work here Daldaen, I'd have to call this pretty objectively conclusive.

Edit: Ele too, of course.

[Colgate]

Welp, that's what people have to do then. There are reasons I won't get into that the top guilds are dropping extensive amounts of platinum on locket binds and insta-gate potions, rather than res boxing.

Not classic, not even EQ.

well yea obviously translocates and gate potions make it easier

rez boxes still make it possible, just a little more annoying and tricky

[Mezzmur]

Our lives have changed since we spent two weeks bound outside of the Plane of Mischief - not the one in Greater Divide, but the one deep in north Temple of Veeshan.

http://mikeshea.net/loral/001447.html

[Erati]

talking ab where that specific entrance to the Plane is not their bind pts....as in they were bound in PoM and now adventuring outside it aka changed their bind from inside PoM to outside elsewhere in the game

revamp made it possible to zone to PoM from another location not in NTOV

[Mezzmur]

talking ab where that specific entrance to the Plane is not their bind pts....as in they were bound in PoM and now adventuring outside it aka changed their bind from inside PoM to outside elsewhere in the game

revamp made it possible to zone to PoM from another location not in NTOV

we spent two weeks bound outside of the Plane of Mischief

I don't read that the way you are reading it then. That says we were bound outside PoM.

[Erati]

I don't read that the way you are reading it then. That says we were bound outside PoM.

if I am bound in Greater Faydark - I am bound outside of the Plane of Mischief...aka no longer INSIDE PoM as in they were bound inside then changed those bind points to be outside

they do not say "they are bound at the cubby where you click into PoM" or "bound at the PoM castle in ToV"

[Thunderjunky]

That's tough to determine what he actually means regarding where they were actually bound... It's prose; it's enhanced for effect.
He also says he crossed from Erudin to Kaladim with monsters 3 feet behind him the whole way...without clarifying how they followed him through zones and onto the boats...he's not elaborating on each specific.
As such, saying for sure that he meant he was bound IN NToV IN the PoM cubby is not possible. Otherwise you also have to assume he didn't die from mob trains (you can be hit by mobs at 3 feet) and that he really meant they followed him across the whole world without a break through zones and on boats.
At the same time you also can't absolutely prove, FROM THIS STORY, that he wasn't bound
IN NToV IN the PoM cubby...that falls to all of the other evidence listed in this thread that it wasn't possible.

[Freakish]

Nice work Bamek I'd call that pretty good conclusive evidence binding was allowed in ToV.

[Thunderjunky]

Touche (accent, etc).

[Erati]

Nice work Bamek I'd call that pretty good conclusive evidence binding was allowed in ToV.

Right bc one guy saying he was bound 'outside PoM' which literally can refer to anywhere outside of the actual Plane of Mischief is proper evidence that you can bind in Temple Veeshan when a pile of evidence has been shown to the contrary.

The only evidence supporting binding in Temple Veeshan:

You can do it on P99 currently. ( we had alot of fucked up shit here, this is not evidence it should stay )
A few people 'remember being bound there'(Mis-remembering is a thing when this game has spanned 10+ years with various expansions/forms of travel )
One guy in very roleplay-esque prose way talks about being bound "outside of the Plane of Mischief" you know the one in NTOV.

Whereas the evidence against it:

An actual binding ruleset guide that no one refutes
Logic
You cannot be bound there at Live today as well as the Velious/Kunark bind ruleset still applies as written today.

[JurisDictum]

Nice work Bamek I'd call that pretty good conclusive evidence binding was allowed in ToV.

And then they randomly took it out without ever mentioning it in the patch notes? There just happens to be pages of people discussing binding/locket of escape with no mention of ToV binding -- yet extensive mention of binding outside dungeons? And of corse, lets just assume the post that unequivocally states that binding in ToV is impossible is completely wrong -- even though it was never contradicted. When people discussed the locket it was portrayed as "being able to bind almost anywhere" not literally everywhere.

I'm not saying that highly dramatized RP story counts for nothing, but it doesn't really stand up to the counter-evidence.

[Scryll]

Binding in ToV was never classic. I do not recall this at all, only place I recall people being bound was at the entrance to ToV in WW. I remember a monk friend of mine being bound "inside" PoM tho.

[Thunderjunky]

I wonder if sarcasm is lost in text.

[Ele]

Same guy posting in two different newgroup threads mid-2001. Incomplete lists, but interesting comment about Skyshrine binding.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/GSLgcFfYwOw/SS9A3BoemKwJ
On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 02:34:51 GMT, robe...@pacbell.net (Robert Marshall)
scribed into the ether:
>Can't you bind anywhere on the face of Norrath?
No.

You can only BE bound in city zones. All starting cities, as well as the OT
outpost, the FV outpost, the City of Mist, Kael, Skyshrine, and Thurgadin
count as city zones. So does highpass. There is also the new bind spot near
kaesora in the field of bone, and the gypsy camp in north karana.

You can bind YOURSELF almost anywhere...but there are exceptions to this.
You cannot bind in:
Timmorous Deep
Plane of Hate
Plane of Air
Crystal Caverns
Veeshan's Peak
Velketor's Labyrinth.

And I think there is one more spot that I am forgetting that is unbindable.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/rnFCH2RyH4E/k-ZeKgdRVAQJ

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:26:48 -0800, "John M. Pryor" <jpr...@cts.com> scribed
into the ether:
>I need some basic info on the spell Bind Affinity. I know what it does, but
>I'm unclear on the mechanics within the game. My understanding is that if I
>had Bind (not til next level, unfortunately), I could bind myself pretty
>much anywhere. But If I get someone else to bind me, what I think I know is
>that we must join and then they can only bind me in certain spots. For
>example, in Qeynos, people get bound at the gates of the city. But what do
>you do in a zone that doesn't have cities? I'm currently in North Karanas
>and it's a L-O-N-G corpse run (from Everfrost) if I die, so I'd like to be
>bound, but I have no clue as to WHERE someone could bind me. What are the
>rules and/or signs of where someone can bind you?
Reprinted from a few weeks ago (well, ok, not reprinted, going from memory)

You can BE bound (by someone else) in the following locations:
Halas
North Qeynos
South Qeynos
Surefall Glade
Erudin
Erudin Keep (or is it castle?)
Paineel
High Pass Hold
The Arena (off lake rathe)
Rivervale
Oggok
Grobb
Neriak Foreign Quarter
Neriak Commons
Neriak whatever-the-third-zone-is-called
Temple of Solusek Ro (I'm pretty sure, but not 100% on this)
East Freeport
North Freeport
West Freeport
Kaladim
The greater faydark (whole zone)
North Felwithe
South Felwithe
Ak'Anon
East Cabalis
West Cabalis
The outpost section of The Overthere (not the whole zone)
The outpost section of Firiona Vie (not the whole zone)
The City of Mist
Thurgadin
Icewell keep
Kael Drakkel
Skyshrine

Casters can self-bind themselves ANYWHERE IN THE GAME, with the following
exceptions:
You cannot bind in the plane of hate
You cannot bind in the timorous deep
I believe you cannot bind in the plane of Air
You cannot bind in Velketor's Labyrinth
You cannot bind in the Crystal Caverns
Probably cannot bind in other velious zones that I've never tried to bind
in (or have never been to ;))

Skyshrine in velious is a wierd exception...anyone can BE bound there, but
NOBODY can bind themselves.

[Thadeus]

There was a time I believed in classic EQ. I can be more classic than any of you. But we don't have time for classic. We need someone to step in and do what has to be done. Come on guys, if we all band together, no mob will EVER be pulled without auto-fire again. Aren't you guys tired of all this administration? You don't need an administrator, you need someone who gets things done.

[Mezzmur]

It's worth noting that some specific servers on Live had unique bind locations and bind rules. FV server had more restricted bind locations. I was on Fennin Ro.

Example of VP Binding (Not Available on P99, Last I checked...a Kunark Dungeon. Blanket "Dungeon" statements don't apply)

http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3563

Another option, if your faction was good with Kunark dragons and not going to change any time soon, would be to bind in Veeshan's Peak. Crazy? It has portals within to the Plane of Sky, Freeport, Swamp of No Hope, and the normal exit to Skyfire. A fairly decent number of options to get around. At one point, albeit far after the classic period, my faction was good so I just wandered the zone. I was also high level so maybe that's why, but I don't remember drawing aggro from the trash mobs. Certainly I wasn't KoS to the bosses. Because PoSky drops down to Freeport that reduces down to Freeport, SoNH, and Skyfire. But I still think its not bad for the Kunark era.

Example of SOE Ninja Nerfing Bind/Bind Locations

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35

No you can not bind anywhere in regular zones either. Try binding yourself near Giant Fort in Bwoods, it used to be possible, but it aint anymore. Ninja nerfed it seems

It looks like binding got more restrictive as EQ went along in the timeline.

[Arteker]

It's worth noting that some specific servers on Live had unique bind locations and bind rules. FV server had more restricted bind locations. I was on Fennin Ro.

Example of VP Binding (Not Available on P99, Last I checked...a Kunark Dungeon. Blanket "Dungeon" statements don't apply)

http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3563



Example of SOE Ninja Nerfing Bind/Bind Locations

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35



It looks like binding got more restrictive as EQ went along in the timeline.

as caster u could not bind urself anywhere ,a mele could not be binded aswell in the firiona vie server .

Aswell in solusek ro server i recall a magician who would sell you coths to castle for 10k, he was kinda infamous because it finished magna charta monopoly in pom cardds stuff(this was velious age)

[Matalus]

100% didn't read through entire thread and have no info to back up but I assure remembering binding at AoW kill spot(left side) as a wizard, porting to old world and manastoneing and gating back.

[Ele]

It's worth noting that some specific servers on Live had unique bind locations and bind rules. FV server had more restricted bind locations. I was on Fennin Ro.

Example of VP Binding (Not Available on P99, Last I checked...a Kunark Dungeon. Blanket "Dungeon" statements don't apply)

http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3563

Can also bind in City of Mist which is also flagged as a city, outdoor, dungeon.

He also talks about wandering the zone and being too high level/faction for the trash to aggro meaning it was likely post revamp.

Just tried to bind here on live and it doesn't allow it. Also tried Siren's Grotto (no), Western Wastes (Yes), Dragon Necopolis (No), Temple of Veeshan zone in (No)


Example of SOE Ninja Nerfing Bind/Bind Locations

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=35

Tested this one on live too and bound at the giant fort in BW and again inside the fort. Unless they changed it like the guy says, then changed it back.

[Ele]

100% didn't read through entire thread and have no info to back up but I assure remembering binding at AoW kill spot(left side) as a wizard, porting to old world and manastoneing and gating back.

Was changed from anywhere in Kael to WL and GD zone lines in a November 2001 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011107.html) patch. It is implemented here early to avoid the exploit of binding in the arena area and not facing any xp death penalties (and bind rushing even though people just do it from the zone lines now).

[Daldaen]

Yea those posts are recollections from EQClassic made in 2013, not exactly prime evidence. He's also talking about post revamp, which doesn't matter much.

The other post is from 2007 about a very specific area, which is no longer this way on live. I'm guessing the dude is likely mistaken and tried to bind someone else.

[Joyelle]

http://i.imgur.com/5hHUeAr.jpg

[t3kn34k]

Any player with a bind location in one of the above zones should have their bind location reset to East Commonlands (or some default safe zone).

It sounds like you are more motivated by greed than an actual desire to see a classic change.
I also notice that nearly all of your evidence is anecdotal not to mention from secondary and tertiary sources.
I dont see proof that this was never classic, perhaps the bind restriction was implemented some time after launch during Velious.
If you're going to post evidence, you better have proof from a primary source for the entire duration of the timeline since your asking for the staff to rebind a lot of players.
Firepot bind was classic for a time and those were not reset.
Shits classic. Deal with it.

[Colgate]

pretty sure the entire point is that it was never possible to bind in temple of veeshan, therefore no one on p99 should be allowed to keep their bind

it's not like firepots at all because it was possible to bind at the firepots for a limited time on live

[Ele]

It sounds like you are more motivated by greed than an actual desire to see a classic change.

There are plenty of people in here refuting the bug report that are also motivated by reasons other than "classic."

I also notice that nearly all of your evidence is anecdotal not to mention from secondary and tertiary sources.
If you're going to post evidence, you better have proof from a primary source for the entire duration of the timeline since your asking for the staff to rebind a lot of players.
Shits classic. Deal with it.

Sometimes that is the only evidence available, since we do not have access to a perfect copy of the back-end code from 1999-2001 and the patch messages are also not always useful, since there are tons of classic changes there were never noted in the patch notes.

Dungeon binding was deemed unclassic in Kunark (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41435). The staff rebound people on Trak ledge and other locations. They also warned (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113050)if people still had those bind locations that punishments would be handed out.

If we only used primary sources (original code, patch messages, packet sniffers, and developer letters), a lot of the server's classic content wouldn't be here.

I dont see proof that this was never classic, perhaps the bind restriction was implemented some time after launch during Velious.
Firepot bind was classic for a time and those were not reset.

If it was removed at some, then we should continue to examine when it was removed (that is if it was ever allowed in the first place) to prevent new binds after any potential restriction date as was implemented in Timorous Deep, while old binds remained.

[Daldaen]

What Ele said, more eloquently than myself.

pretty sure the entire point is that it was never possible to bind in temple of veeshan, therefore no one on p99 should be allowed to keep their bind

it's not like firepots at all because it was possible to bind at the firepots for a limited time on live

Basically this. Firepots were shown to be classic for a time. Whereas this has no real evidence to suggest it was ever doable.

[Joyelle]

It sounds like you are more motivated by greed than an actual desire to see a classic change.

You must not know Daldaen. He LIVES for getting things back to classic even if it makes life more difficult in-game for himself or his friends/guildmates. I hardly believe this is motivated by greed. It's just Daldaen the Classhole.

[t3kn34k]

I think it's been quite clearly shown binding in ToV during Velious wasn't a thing.

I don't think it has been clearly shown at all. All of the evidence posted in your OP is from very late Velious. Also much of it is speculative, (saying 'i bind over there' is different than saying 'you cant bind here')

Find evidence to suggest otherwise.

You cant request a change by requesting evidence. I will definitely contribute to the search once all windows are complete, but heres the challenge. Prove that it was not classic for the entire duration of the timeline. Your wayback machine does not go back far enough, and also its a secondary source.

Resetting binds is necessary if it was never a classic mechanic.
I would agree, but we need more evidence than what was presented.

No Kunark dungeons are bindable, save CITY of Mist (note the city part). Likewise no Velious dungeons are bindable,
This is an inference, not facts. One set of data does not prove/disprove the other. Keep in mind that Velious is a faction based expansion. Many people see Kael as a dungeon zone, I call it home and bank there (and watch people fight while munching on a crunchy codain head). However I am KOS in Thurgadin. Where would someone on CoV faction call home?

What's classic is no characters ever being able to bind in ToV. Bind outside behind Sontalak if you enjoy spending time in ToV. Shits classic...
Myself and others recall self-binding in ToV at least at the beginning of Velious.

Players should NOT have ever been able to bind in these zones. It's a Pandora's box of problems, especially in ToV.
You seem to restate your main point a lot. Do your homework and prove it.

It's just Daldaen the Classhole.
Perhaps he is and i misspoke about his intentions. Sincere apologies. I am also an advocate for classic. If hes truly 'the classhole' he will heed what I am saying and do more research. Preferrably not more data from Dec 2001.

If it was removed at some, then we should continue to examine when it was removed (that is if it was ever allowed in the first place) to prevent new binds after any potential restriction date as was implemented in Timorous Deep, while old binds remained.
Pretty much this. I can only confirm what I and others recall from live and I wouldnt expect you to accept that as evidence. Keep searching until you have more data from early velious/launch.

[Daldaen]

January 5th, 2001 - Allakhazam (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=117&p=3#comments)

You cannot bind in the dungeon. I tried binding at entrance mirror on 1
last night. Might be able to bind others, just not self. Skyshrine works like
that.

Couldn't bind in ToFS dungeon 3 weeks into Velious. Safe to assume never was ToFS bindable.

More weird evidence for Skyshrine binding rules as Ele noted earlier!

[Scryll]

Myself and others recall self-binding in ToV at least at the beginning of Velious.

Nope, never happend. You clearly do not remember how much freakin effort was put inn for mobilization around inside ToV on live, only place people could bind themself was at the entrance in WW. Statements like this indicates to me that you never were in ToV in the 2001 era, hell I don't recall being able to bind inside ever, and I quit in 2004.

On a different side, where is the evidence stating it was possible to bind inside ToV? I have not seen it, because there is none.

[diamondfist]

So interesting fact:
For the speculative references that are being posted... and they are just that. (Remember EQ was different the first time playing through in some aspects, and 90% of the players didnt see high end content, and of that 10% 95% of them played follow the leader, proven and the safest... even if safe was more inconvenient. Kind of like in velks no one dropped down the pit unless you had the required druid or wizard to evac/port because OT hammers weren't very well known... and thats just a group content example that a majority of the population had access to.

As per binding, my Halfling druid main, Merlian Windrider on Erollisi Marr made enough plat doing ports to buy 2 Manastones and this was all from 1 niche that no one else bothered capitalizing on... being bound @ ToV, and im not saying outside i was literally bound inside ToV, because It was much safer for me to do so then being outside, and it wasnt really a problem for me since i could port anywhere. Being bound inside wasnt a option for a non porter, if you wanted to kill dragons. If you bind inside you were trapped. (UNLESS YOU COULD PORT)

Many melees paid me a few hundred plat on almost a daily occurrence because peoples mindset was to bind elsewhere, and it was a death trap and hassle for most druids or wizards to go out to ToV, even the ones quading in CS. The small amount of people adventuring into ToV and the like left options few and fair between for rescue.



So the next time you link a player written post saying people "should bind outside" thats subjective to their opinion of what works, just a much as someone typing "you can't bind inside" is that really them saying its impossible, or you can't do it for your own sanity, and the posters fear of a backlash when you realize how hard it is to get out once you do.









Sidenote:
Also why can't level 1s zone into ToV? its not a plane, only planes had level caps on them, until around PoP? LDoN? when they went back and put a level cap on ToV to stop people from selling loot rights on gear there to low level alts in a effort to stop RMTing and stop people from sniping content from lower guilds. It was later worked around when they put in the campfire system in during TSS?, lvl 1s could then sneak back in.

[Man0warr]

Because Toop exploit teleporting level 1s to raid zones to train people. All zones have un-classic level restrictions right now.

There's more evidence of no dungeons being bindable the entirety of Velious than there is of being able to bind at any point. The evidence needs to be provided to keep it as it is - because right now it's mostly just an oversight by Nilbog.

[Skew]

I was one of the first few people on The Nameless to be bound INSIDE PoM when the zone was just a broken shell with nothing to do.
No one , not any class , could bind in ToV in the first 6 months or so of Velious. I dont know what happened after that as i quit to play DAoC.

This server picks and chooses whats classic. I just figured Rogean wanted people to bind in ToV /shrug NBD.
But if the argument is about classic , then binding in ToV wasnt classic.

[Ele]

Sidenote:
Also why can't level 1s zone into ToV? its not a plane, only planes had level caps on them, until around PoP? LDoN? when they went back and put a level cap on ToV to stop people from selling loot rights on gear there to low level alts in a effort to stop RMTing and stop people from sniping content from lower guilds. It was later worked around when they put in the campfire system in during TSS?, lvl 1s could then sneak back in.

Post in this thread, I reopened it for you. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176762

[Bman703]

I was one of the first few people on The Nameless to be bound INSIDE PoM when the zone was just a broken shell with nothing to do.
No one , not any class , could bind in ToV in the first 6 months or so of Velious. I dont know what happened after that as i quit to play DAoC.

This server picks and chooses whats classic. I just figured Rogean wanted people to bind in ToV /shrug NBD.
But if the argument is about classic , then binding in ToV wasnt classic.

This

[Colgate]

even though i have everything to lose and nothing to gain by disabling binding in temple of veeshan, you have to either have an ulterior motive or be an actual retard to think that there isn't enough evidence posted in this thread to warrant this change

[Pint]

i like that posts from the era are somehow more questionable than people's memories itt. all evidence points to tov not being a bindable place at any point in eq's timeline except for anecdotal evidence from people who stand to lose their bind point. (i have 5 toons bound inside tov including melee toons)

[JurisDictum]

I think the Rampage PR team here has been ineffective at persuading anyone. But just in case I'm going to point out something that should be obvious.

There is no textual evidence from the old days that you could bind in ToV but plenty of comments talking about binding outside of ToV. The generic rule was that you could not bind in Kunark or Velious dungeons. Currently on live, you cannot bind in those zones. Therefore, the burden of prof is on the argument that you could bind in ToV, not the other way around. Obviously we are going to lack certainty on this topic -- welcome to p99.

[Ciroco]

I disagree that people binding outside of ToV is evidence of anything, but there's still enough here that I'd say it probably shouldn't be allowed.

[Foxplay]

Try not to let your emotions guide your reasoning as to what is "proof"

Some dates for you to be concerned about you deciding on what is "Classic and what is not"

Velious Releae Date --- December 5th, 2000

~Patches between these times where searched for Temple of Veeshan, and Bind keywords

Luclin Release Date -- December 4th, 2001

~Patches after this release date and changes within them are not classic to Velious

Thus if you are honestly motivated on policing what is "classic" and do not have alternative motives for trying to sway the staff in deciding to make "P99" rules exemptions or exceptions which keep in mind do already exist for major game mechanics then we are looking at patch notes between these times. As luck would have it, Fox has already done this for you, but it gets even better I compared patch notes outside of this timeline in order to look an outlying red flag of information. Here is a few on the subject of binding locations in Vel in regards to the actual classic timeline

------------------------------
November 7, 2001
------------------------------
** Zone Specific Changes **

- Kael now has specific bind locations, located only at the entryways.
This means that binding will only be possible in those areas.

Thus logically from this information we will infer that prior to the Nov, 7 patch before Luclin, Kael should allow binding anywhere in the zone, and after the Nov 7 patch (in this timeline) should be at that time restricted to the entryway's by your reasoning of "classic" however if you want to make P99 exceptions again that is another discussion entirely. Keep in mind this is the final patch prior to Luclin that changed any game mechanics not counting server side patches

Lets keep going...

------------------------------
December 18, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Note about upcoming changes to the Temple of Veeshan **

In the next patch, we are making a few changes to the monster
population in Temple of Veeshan. Places that were previously safe to
camp, may not be any longer. Please be sure to not camp deep within the
Temple of Veeshan on Wednesday night, or you may be unpleasantly
surprised following the patch.

Note this change refers to your safe halls flurry drakes, but the key important thing to consider here is the DATE, this patch was put in after Luclin release of Dec 4th, so the removal of the safe spot in NToV that happend in this patch if going questing for true classic should be removed and restored to how it was prior to the Dec 18th safe spot removal. Oh theres more for further clarification and proof of what this change actually did...

------------------------------
December 28, 2001
------------------------------

- Some spots in ToV no longer safe to camp out due to New Drakes and
Wurm spawns being added.
- A bug allowing multiple pets to be summoned has been fixed.


Prior to Vel release there is no mention either in Vanilla or Kunark patch notes anywhere that remotely mentions restrictions on Caster Binds, nor is there any mention of restriction of Caster binds between Velious release and Luclin release with the exception of the Kael Entryway restriction mentioned above

As for melee binds the restriction of bind being cast on another player and not self are well known to be limited to specific outdoor zones in certain areas flagged for it (Like the Overthere outpost) and City zones these restrictions have little to do with Caster-Self Binding

As for bind restrictions being already put in place to zones for Caster self only to not be mentioned in patch notes. Yes that is a distinct possibility I never played a caster during that era nor did I ever have a Locket so I cannot say with certainty "Yup I bound there" However quoting old forums saying that everyone to be mound at ToV zone in pillar's is not even close to definitive proof

People raided very differently back then, guilds did full clears of zones that took all night and even multiple "Raid nights" and sorry to say but they where chicken shit and did not want to bind In a zone that could cause death chain's or that where very far or out of the way simply because those raid mobs had a GUARANTEED SPAWN TIME or a much smaller spawn window there was little to no reason for a raiding guild back in the day to do the binding that happens on P99 cause they knew when their raid night was, and they ALL IN FORCE showed up on those nights to clear everything in the zone to get to their raid targets. So there was little reason to Bind inside the zone and instead bind outside for a few purposes 1- Sont, 2) Zlandicar/Klandicar , yup dual purpose, gate to ToV and from there run over to DN for Zland. 3) Complete wipe *aka corpse retrieval mode* castes zone back in to entrance which is a completely safe spot and begin summoning corpses - yea it sounds outdated compared to tactics used on P99 but like I said raiding was a bit more primitive back then

So there you have it, no hard text from game dev's mentioning that ToV had Binds taken away at any point, and no hard proof that it was disabled from the get go. However the Safe spots nerf in deep NToV where most certainly post Luclin changes and should not be concerned with the P99 timeline unless we are also making another specific P99 exception. You have a lot of forum posts from the dark ages of raiding where everybody beat sticks and rocks together trying to make fire, fast forward to P99 where everybody pouring gasoline and jet fuel (Gate potions and Lockets) to light the same fire -- suffice to say the fire CAN get lit either way, a bunch of sticks and rocks can make a fire but its going to take a lot more work than the gasoline and jet fuel. But i don't really find "Raid Guides" from the dark ages as definitive proof that ToV restricted binding simply due to their chosen bind location simply because the bind they choose was a good safe bind and it got the job done back in those days when raids would full clear zones and "Work there way into NToV". Also raid binds where something that where typically set ON RAID DAY as casters usually wanted to have their binds elsewhere *their home city or next to a dungeon zone* and melee....well didn't have many options to begin with anyway if they died they sat it town naked waiting for a rez. Binding back then as I remember it was a "We are going to kill in this zone so ill reset my bind before we move in" sort of deal it was not a "Raid mob X is in window, so we are required to bind at Y location and be ready to login and spam the gate button"

I personally was not one of the super omega god-tier raid guilds back in the day I was on povar which was DECIMATED by Triton, my guild had to wait until LATE Luclin era before we began raiding NToV and my guild used the dark ages rub two sticks together method, we didn't think outside the box....but we had a lot of fun and cleared NToV on our raid nights "granted we had Luclin spells and AA points to help us"

I cannot answer from personal experience as to specific zone lockouts for Bind because I was a well prepared monk back in the day, If i got left behind id just Flop to safety, If i died I had coffins in my bank, If I was feeling Lazy id just Thurg Gate Cause I love getting high on Velium Vapors

[Man0warr]

Kael is a city, not a dungeon. You could bind anywhere in Kael before that patch - it was changed because people were exploiting the Arena to take non-exp deaths while fighting PvE content. This was implemented ahead of time on P99.

The changes to safe spots in NToV were done because raids were camping out deep inside or CotHing to bypass trash - it had nothing to do with binding. These safe spots were removed ahead of time on P99 as well by adding the extra Flurry drakes.

At no point could you ever bind in a Velious dungeon. You still can't on Live. Something as major as that change would have necessitated a patch note and/or removal of player's current bind spots - there's no evidence of either happening.

[Crom]

Posts like this, kinda makes it hard to belive that binding inside ToV should be possible.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3422&page=2&highlight=bind+tov

"Nothing like the rush of DA training past Sontalak then stopping to bind yourself at Temple of Veeshan zoneline while he is gnawing on you..."

"As many others have said, it's a clerics responsibility to bind near the fight so that in the event of a wipe out, CR takes far less time.

I bind all over the place, WW, outside ToV, in Fear, you name it. I also keep 5 FoB and 5 Everfrost gate potions on me, just in case. So far, no need to use them because my fellow guildmates always worry about getting us out after we're done."


http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10868&highlight=bind+tov

HoT (Halls of Testing)- east wing is where you are going then.

1. Getting to ToV will be easy as you are not KoS to CoV - so you dont have to worry about Sontalak. Have all casters bind right outside.

2. Move everyone down into ToV - down the picture hall and setup in the hub room facing Zemm.


http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4546&highlight=bind+tov

Lack of melee binding? Tell me a place where you can go that is over 3 zones away from any melee bind point (ToV is furthest that I know of)


So we have caster saying bind outside even with a dragon trying to eat them, and melee complaining that nearest melee bind point is three zones away from ToV...

Hard to claim anyone should be able to bind inside ToV...

[Erati]

Insane that a guy would just bind outside with a dragon currently beating on him rather than click in and bind safely lol

seems like that ability to bind inside didnt exist or people would be doing that to skip Sont and mentioning it as a tip

[Ele]

Found a bind affinity description from May 2001 on Graffe.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010521193736/http://www.graffe.com/spells/level12.htm

Bind Affinity
Mana Required: 100
Skill: Alteration
Range to Target: 100 feet
Allowable Targets: All
Spell Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.25 seconds
Recast Delay: 12.0 seconds
Description: This spell will bind you to anyplace within the world of Norrath except for dungeons in Kunark and Velious (note that you can bind in Kaesora and a couple other places now). It can be cast upon another but they must be in your party and also they must be in a town. This is an invaluable spell for all of us and can also make you rich. Although I bind people for free, I have seen other casters easily get one platinum per bind.
Location:


Note that the "in Kaesora and a couple other places" is referencing the March 6, 2001 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010306.html) patch adding new bind locations in FM, Field of Bone @ Kaesora ruins, and Gypsy camps. http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2631
http://www.tokyo2001.com/game/eq/quest/fieldbone/fieldbone04.html
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18807



This link was posted by nilbog in the Kunark new bind areas thread, directly above. April 2001. A later snapshot is posted in OP.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010428081253/http://eqatlas.com/bindguide.html

Binding in Norrath

I'm frequently asked by people to let them know where they can bind in a certain area. This will provide the basic information on who can bind and where.

Basic Rules

First of all, there are some basic rules as to who can be bound and where. All the caster classes eventually get the ability to Bind Affinity (or bind for short) themselves and other people. Melee classes never get this ability, nor is there any items that will allow you to do it. There was once an item, called the Locket of Escape, that had one charge of Bind Affinity, but this no longer drops in the game. This ability is now purely within the caster's realm.

Exactly where a caster can bind themselves depends on what area of the game we're talking about. In the area of the original game (i.e. Antonica, Faydwer, and Odus) a caster can bind themself anywhere, inside or out. In Kunark and Velious, however, they are only able to bind themselves in outdoor areas, and can not bind themselves in dungeons.

Melee classes can only be bound inside of "city" areas. In the original game, this is defined as only cities. In Kunark there are some areas that count as cities that are also dungeons to hunt in. Also, a person can be bound in several areas that are outside as well. Note that in Kunark, there are two areas to be bound in, one is safe for good races and the other safe for evil races. The iksar can also be bound inside Cabilis, which is safe for nobody else.

[Endonde]

Insane that a guy would just bind outside with a dragon currently beating on him rather than click in and bind safely lol

seems like that ability to bind inside didnt exist or people would be doing that to skip Sont and mentioning it as a tip

All other stuff aside, I have a really hard time believing any cleric could manage to bind themselves as Sontalak was hitting them.

But just to play Devil's advocate I would say binding outside would be superior to binding inside on live EQ. The biggest reason being if you aren't factioned for CoV being bound at the entrance is a huge trap, you're locked in, and you aren't getting out with out significant effort, and even if you are factioned it means you have to run 3 extra minutes to get out as opposed to just being able to gate outside.

Overall I'd say you probably couldn't bind in ToV on live based off some posts here though.

[Joyelle]

In Kunark and Velious, however, they are only able to bind themselves in outdoor areas, and can not bind themselves in dungeons.

Nailed it. Seems pretty conclusive to me.

[Treats]

Not sure how this made it in, I even bound a few of my characters behind Sontalak at statues a week or so into Velious release.

Also I do not understand how pulling shit all over the place is occurring, you should be wrecked by assist radius and EVERYTHING should assist no matter what faction in ToV.

[Man0warr]

It does assist. The challenge is separating the boss from the trash without having the trash come back to the raid after.

[mischief419]

You already cannot bind in Crystal Caverns, although LATER once the factions are added (if not already?) for Frostone, you SHOULD be able to bind in the little outpost down there.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

Tower of Frozen Shadows
Dragon Necropolis
Temple of Veeshan
Siren's Grotto
Sleeper's Tomb

Should all not allow anyone to bind in the zone at any point during Velious.

[Nirgon]

Coulda sworn I bound myself in Velks during live Velious

[Daldaen]

Evidence? If you have some please post it.

Classic bind guide and Bind Affinity descriptions says no indoor dungeons, ToFS/CC explicitly are stated as no binding in several posts, ToV/DN/SG/Velks suggest all binding outside with no suggestion binding inside is possible. All of these zones on live currently don't allow binding.

[Ele]

Druid's Grove post where 2001 Velious era commentors saying they were bound in PoM and one of them commenting that Xegony had 15 rogues bound in PoM.

http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2386.html

[Man0warr]

Are we disputing being able to bind in PoM or using it as evidence you couldn't bind in ToV? I lost track. Totally classic though.

[Ele]

Are we disputing being able to bind in PoM or using it as evidence you couldn't bind in ToV? I lost track. Totally classic though.

No one should be disputing the ability to bind yourself in PoM via spell or Locket/Ring. The last post was just another data point of rogues being bound in PoM versus NToV.

[Nibblewitz]

Also I do not understand how pulling shit all over the place is occurring, you should be wrecked by assist radius and EVERYTHING should assist no matter what faction in ToV.

Pullers are being CoTHed into little safe nooks in NToV, while they have a 5 minute TL box up. They tag the dragon, then take their TL box somewhere else. Train follows and the mob is tagged out of all that.

[Ele]

Pullers are being CoTHed into little safe nooks in NToV, while they have a 5 minute TL box up. They tag the dragon, then take their TL box somewhere else. Train follows and the mob is tagged out of all that.

The new VP.

[arsenalpow]

The new VP.

Well VP is footraces, Rampage doesn't even use the entrance, they have a permanent raid force at the west exit.

[Slathar]

Binding in ToV was classic.

Daeldaen reported for changing information in copy/pasta.

[Raev]

Not sure how this made it in, I even bound a few of my characters behind Sontalak at statues a week or so into Velious release.

Also I do not understand how pulling shit all over the place is occurring, you should be wrecked by assist radius and EVERYTHING should assist no matter what faction in ToV.

The reality is that EQ aggro mechanics allow anything to be pulled anywhere: start massive train, rune yourself, someone else mallets the target out. If it isn't done via TL/Gate potions, it will be done with COH.

[Skew]

The reality is that EQ aggro mechanics allow anything to be pulled anywhere: start massive train, rune yourself, someone else mallets the target out. If it isn't done via TL/Gate potions, it will be done with COH.

Except it won't.
CoTH clears aggro.

[arsenalpow]

Except it won't.
CoTH clears aggro.

Stalking probe, then coth, easy peasy

[Skew]

Stalking probe, then coth, easy peasy

Will a 2nd coh land if cast before 1st finishes or does 2nd mage lose target? easy enough to check i guess. disc/probe/idol/coh for those with more distance may work.

[Detoxx]

Will a 2nd coh land if cast before 1st finishes or does 2nd mage lose target? easy enough to check i guess. disc/probe/idol/coh for those with more distance may work.

Cant get CoTHed while DA brew

[Skew]

Cant get CoTHed while DA brew

That's a relief I bloody hate high pass hold.

[Man0warr]

Bump - still no developer response.

[Raev]

Except it won't.
CoTH clears aggro.

Have some faith, Skew! COH does not summon pets (or probes). The most famous instance of this was Tiggles getting COHed down to Trakanon and forgetting he had summoned his epic pet at the zone in. It resulted in a truly epic train and a lot of lols.

[nilbog]

I was under the impression that binding in tov was possible at the beginning then removed or something.

If it shouldn't be possible, I don't want it to be possible.

[Daldaen]

That is the impression several people have held in this thread. However I can find no evidence to support that point of view.

The evidence I've found and the evidence Ele has posted, makes blanket statements saying no indoor Velious or Kunark dungeons should allow binding (2001 EQAtlas binding guide and 2001 Bind Affinity Description). I've found specific statements saying ToFS and CC (2 of the indoor Velious dungeons) didn't allow binding the first month of Velious. Kunark dungeons do not allow binding (City of Mist being an exception due to being a "city" and perhaps outdoors plays some role). Plus on live none of these zones allow binding today.

I feel like if such a substantial binding location should be allowed, there should be some evidence provided to suggest it was. The only post so far to hint at this was from 2007, a person reminiscing on their days of EQ and being bound "Outside of PoM, when the zone in was in ToV". Which may mean bound in ToV or may mean bound outside of the castle of PoM in the forest, etc.

[Raev]

I feel like if such a substantial binding location should be allowed, there should be some evidence provided to suggest it was.

I disagree here. On P1999, binding in TOV is a tremendous win for trainups and instant FTEs and so on. On Live, none of those advantages would have existed. Quite frankly, only a moron would have bound inside TOV when you can bind outside and zone in. Binding inside would carry the risk of being trapped without dragon faction or winding up in a death loop. I don't think any of your evidence is inconsistent with binding being allowed for some period of time and then changed.

That being said, I think no binding is somewhat more likely purely a priori. Just in my opinion this is not anywhere close to a slam dunk.

[Man0warr]

If binding was allowed and later removed (you can't bind in any dungeon in Velious on Live) you'd think there would have been some mention of it in patch notes or Allakhazam or class forums or of people complaining their binds got reset.

[Daldaen]

Not everything gets mentioned in patch notes, especially something like this.

However, yes, you would expect to hear some comments from people saying they were bound inside and now you cannot. However there is none of that going on.

I do agree it is more advantageous on P99 to be bound inside rather than classic. Let's not forget though that in classic Sontalak was often left up, and is binding somewhere a dragon can death loop you really more favorable than binding just inside where you need a porter to let you out if KoS. Also remember NToV had 2 large safe areas near Twins/Triplets, where one could AFK for hours. You'd think some casters like clerics or mages or porters would be binding there during raids to help raids along? Again, no comments about this happening.

The problem with a mechanic like this is it is difficult to find slam dunk evidence. It's not like an item upgrade where you can simply check allakhazam history. The majority of the evidence posted either says you cannot in a blanket sort of way or hints at the inability to bind in a more subtle way (like why everyone was binding outside).

If the tables were flipped though, and there was no clear evidence posted regarding the bind ability of the firepots in early Kunark, I don't think people would be so keen to rely on people's memories about "I swore I bound here back 14 years ago". Something like that would require evidence to put into the timeline.

Likewise Kunark binding was retroactively fixed when evidence was brought forth, none of it of the slam dunk quality. Mostly the same evidence brought forth here.

[Pint]

Not a single shred of evidence to suggest you could bind there, plenty showing that you couldn't and no mention anywhere of a change patch notes or otherwise. Handful of people claiming they remember that you could bind there and a handful claiming they remember that you couldn't but all evidence points to not being able to. This one seems pretty easy, especially considering that raids guilds are complaining about the raid environment in tov and removing binds will completely turn the zone on its head. Remove them!

[Valse]

Not a single shred of evidence to suggest you could bind there, plenty showing that you couldn't and no mention anywhere of a change patch notes or otherwise. Handful of people claiming they remember that you could bind there and a handful claiming they remember that you couldn't but all evidence points to not being able to. This one seems pretty easy, especially considering that raids guilds are complaining about the raid environment in tov and removing binds will completely turn the zone on its head. Remove them!

I think this is the first time I've agreed with Pint's logic. But none the less, this is a sound argument.

[Man0warr]

Bump.

[nyclin]

would be nice to see a staff response on this, considering the huge amount of evidence that's been posted

[Daldaen]

I was under the impression that binding in tov was possible at the beginning then removed or something.

If it shouldn't be possible, I don't want it to be possible.

This is the staff response thus far.

Personally I've yet to see any evidence supporting that this was a temporary thing. No date can be guesstimated on when this was changed to make this an era update, similar to Firepots, since no comments seem to exist about binding inside of ToV, or more generally, any (non-city) Velious dungeon.

This goes for Siren's Grotto, Tower of Frozen Shadow, Dragon Necropolis, Velketor's Labryinth, and Temple Veeshan. Possibly Sleepers Tomb also (no key so I cannot confirm bind ability).

[vouss]

I was bound in ToV on 2 separate characters on zek back in 01', my level 60 necro alt AND my lowbie porter alt. This is exactly how I remember it being, if it is of any relevance, and I do believe it is, I also remember my adress, phone number, and high school teachers name from the time I played on live.

[Man0warr]

Bump, needs to be in next patch.

[vouss]

Tell me right now what is your phone number?

[Man0warr]

Bump

[Man0warr]

Bump

[vouss]

No sufficient evidence has been provided for the change. Move to resolved.

[Man0warr]

Tons of evidence was provided. Rather, there is zero evidence that you could bind in Velious dungeons, ever.

[ducktv]

should remove all current binds from ntov.

[nyclin]

bumperino

[Man0warr]

Guessing patch didn't fix this.

[Man0warr]

Bump

[Man0warr]

Bump

[Man0warr]

Please fix this Nilbog.

[Daldaen]

Would be nice but it appears the time to fix this has since passed.

What should've been done is what they did with Kael. It was set to the final-Velious state binding rules initially. Even if the case of early allowed bind spots wins out, it seems well accepted that the ability to bind was removed at some point on live. For Re-99 I'd definitely say don't allow binding in Velious dungeons day 1.

If they could put all bind spots in ToV into PoMischief and remove binding in ToV that would definitely make things way more interesting though. The worst thing that could be done though is removing the ability to bind there without removing existing bind spots. If that's done and raid rules don't change only those with bound pullers could compete. As people quit guilds would fall to 1-2 bound pullers capable of bringing mobs in. It would be hilarious.

----

This aside, I do have evidence of Atleast Tower of Frozen Shadows not allowing binding in the very beginning of Velious. Those bind spots and bind ability definitely should get pulled.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2126004&postcount=65

[Man0warr]

Obviously you remove or move the currently bound people. Same for all dungeons in Velious.

[Man0warr]

Bump for Nilbog.

[Man0warr]

Bump

[-Catherin-]

Killing the ability to bind in ToV would definately change the scene in there...

[Man0warr]

Bind should be dead in all Velious dungeons (even today on Live, you can't bind in Velious dungeons).

ToV was meant to be a crawl. No binding and eventual rooting of dragons enforced this via game mechanics since the live GMs were pretty hands off with raids.

[Man0warr]

Bump

[Man0warr]

Bump, didn't go into patch.

[Phantasm]

Your bumps are being ignored.

This is one of those political issues that need to be talked about for 8 months before an ineffective raid summit is called together, ultimately resulting in no change

[Raev]

BDA, I can assure you that under current rules A/A will have no trouble pulling dragons to either East or West without TL boxes. This rule change will not enable a golden age of constant TOV crawls.

[Man0warr]

BDA, I can assure you that under current rules A/A will have no trouble pulling dragons to either East or West without TL boxes. This rule change will not enable a golden age of constant TOV crawls.

Doesn't matter. Couldn't bind in any Velious dungeon on live, shouldn't be able to on P99 either.

[nyclin]

bump - we've had unclassic binding rules in ToV for way too long. reset existing binds and remove the luclin-era roamers in the safe hall.

[nyclin]

bump - got some quality evidence in this thread. here are some choice posts:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2124842&postcount=29
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2125955&postcount=61
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2126685&postcount=78
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2126817&postcount=80

thus far, nobody has been able to present conclusive evidence that binding should be allowed. there's plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that binding wasn't allowed, but nothing that outright states "you can't bind in ToV."

given that nobody can conclusively prove that binding should be allowed, we should err on the side of caution and change this mechanic to a more classic state until evidence supporting binding in ToV can be found.

[nyclin]

bumperino

[lurk]

I dont even see the issue here. Theres no real proof you could bind in TOV and i feel like it was common knowledge that you couldnt. AFIAK on live today you cant bind there

[Ikon]

Recently we evaluated many underutilized dungeons and considered reasons why they might be underutilized. Some people suggested that proximity of bind locations plays a part, and as such we are considering adding more binding locations to the game. We of course will not allow everyone to bind on the doorstep of a dungeon, but these changes should hopefully reduce the potential run for a melee class. While additional binding locations probably will not be in the next patch, we did want to discuss our thoughts on the matter.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Exactly where a caster can bind themselves depends on what area of the game we're talking about. In the area of the original game (i.e. Antonica, Faydwer, and Odus) a caster can bind themself anywhere, inside or out. In Kunark and Velious, however, they are only able to bind themselves in outdoor areas, and can not be bound in dungeons
http://web.archive.org/web/20071230014459/www.eqatlas.com/bindguide.html

[Ikon]

He earlier states being bound at PoM would be great and then unequivocally states "as you can't bind in ToV."
You could definitely bind in PoM
be aware that you can no longer bind in PoM, on live servers.

PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong, but i dont think i am, because if i am wrong, time for me to go back to pom, so correct me fast
Link (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16599)

[Ikon]

double post

[nyclin]

I dont even see the issue here. Theres no real proof you could bind in TOV and i feel like it was common knowledge that you couldnt. AFIAK on live today you cant bind there

I think the real issue is that the CSR staff doesn't want to deal with the inevitable shitshow when ToV raiding is turned on its head. On the other hand, there are a lot of bored raiders that would greatly enjoy having a new challenge to overcome.

[Daldaen]

Should just make ToV no CSR like VP was, and remove all the unclassic binds.

The countertraining skills will be improved immensely the weeks to follow such a change.

[nyclin]

bump, not that classic mechanics actually matter on this server

[mischief419]

I really don't think anyone should use arguments that it was classic because that really doesn't apply anymore. It's now about being fair and fun factor. If shit was classic bards would be incredibly broken and wizards could already port to EJ by now from anywhere.

[Ikon]

I really don't think anyone should use arguments that it was classic because that really doesn't apply anymore. It's now about being fair and fun factor. If shit was classic bards would be incredibly broken and wizards could already port to EJ by now from anywhere.
How would it be unfair not to allow binding in dungeons like it was on classic. And fun would be actually raiding, clearing your way to a mob and using your class skills to do so. Whats fun about about turning up to a zoneline, getting coth to a trivial mob and gating out?

[Daldaen]

I really don't think anyone should use arguments that it was classic because that really doesn't apply anymore. It's now about being fair and fun factor. If shit was classic bards would be incredibly broken and wizards could already port to EJ by now from anywhere.

Wizards can port to EJ from anywhere, and Bards are very broken...

[Dolalin]

There was direct evidence that you couldn't bind in ToV posted by Ele at the front of this thread.

Nilbog says they are addressing "low hanging fruit", I can't imagine resetting the bind flag is much harder. Give people bound in these zones a month's warning, then reset their bind points to somewhere safe, maybe Arena entrance.

[Daldaen]

From what I think Sirken said, they don't have any way to mass reset bind points.

I think if they could, in WW right at the ToV click in would be the most logical reset location.

[nyclin]

From what I think Sirken said, they don't have any way to mass reset bind points.

it's a sql database, nilbog could reset binds for everyone on the server with a single line if he wanted to

[nilbog]

This is still slated to be changed. I have presented what needs to be modified, and now awaiting the best way to execute it.

Changing the yes/no for binds in zone? No problem.

Changing the binds for individual players? Quite a problem, bind information is stored in player profile blobs.

We'll fix it when we can.

edit: For those curious, check out character_.profile in an eqemu db.

[nyclin]

We'll fix it when we can.

<3 u nilbog

thank you for all that you do

[Ele]

Magic is in the air.

[Rygar]

A single tear of joy rolled down my cheek... Praise devs for this necessary change!

[blammo]

can we get player binds moved out of tov please?

[Dolalin]

Wow, props Nilbog. Wasn't sure you guys had it in you. :D