Enchanter vs Bard

[Achilles93]

I was with a skilled enchanter the other day in group. It was humbling. Charmed NPC dps is amazing. I sang mana songs and snared, when charm broke I helped by mezzing the former pet while he recharmed etc. So I was not useless but it seemed like replacing me with another chanter would have made the group even better.

My question: at higher levels are bards passed over for groups? Do we compete with enchanters for group desirability? At high levels are there a zillion enchanters and fewer bards? I would like to raid on my bard; is there a glut of high end bards already?

[Raev]

I wouldn't totally discount your role in helping with breaks. When you have a Dire Wolf doubling for 250 or a Siren quadding for 180 with 70% haste and a Steel Hilted Flint Dagger, they can rip through a cloth class very easily. Having another class who can freely cast stun/mez or even root without having to channel through that really helps even an on-the-ball enchanter. So I think at high levels (= NPCs > 50) charm is much more a team effort.

Enchanters are so incredibly good because they fulfill two roles in the group (dps + cc/buffs). Shamans (tanking + cc/buffs) and Monks (tanking + pulling + dps) are superb for the same reason. Bards can do this too, though, by complementing their natural cc/buffs combination with either tanking (gear for AC and cast snare for aggro) or pulling (split with lull and then use the SS helm to pull mobs into camp while you sing songs normally).

Bards have a more interesting endgame role (enchanters mostly just buff) although really the only endgame role that matters is COH mage for FTE /cry

Anyway, in my opinion the best four classes in Classic EQ are Enchanter, Monk, Shaman, and Bard in some order. So you can't go wrong either way.

[Daywolf]

My question: at higher levels are bards passed over for groups? Do we compete with enchanters for group desirability? At high levels are there a zillion enchanters and fewer bards? I would like to raid on my bard; is there a glut of high end bards already?Enc class only gets better as the levels progress. It's one of the strongest classes in the game, though quite weak in the beginning. If you've ever followed any of the solo and duo competitions, you'll notice enc is at or near the top of the ladder. Bards have that resist buff song :)

[Nuggie]

I think bards are more in demand at the moment due to lack of supply. For raids anyways.

Enchanter can solo in more places, pre velious. Not sure in velious.

[DarthMartigan]

As a bard, my favorite groups involve an enchanter and bard together. Get a few dps together, a solid tank and cleric, and a bard can pull and over pull because everyone's going to have mana and the mobs are going to die super fast.

[iruinedyourday]

it seemed like replacing me with another chanter would have made the group even better.

though a group of 6 enchanters is OP a regular group with 1 enchanter 1 bard and 1 MORE enchanter, receives no extra mana from that 3rd chanter.

I would consider replacing any other dps class if another enchanter was available, while keeping the bard as they are providing at the very least more mana regen for the party.

[JurisDictum]

Bard is a better raid class atm. Ideally, all or near-all raid groups would have bards in them. You really only need 2-4 enchanters for the vast majority of raids. As interactive and fun as the Enchanter class can be -- Bard is one of the only classes that is even more interactive and has even more possible uses.

It's hard to say who is faster at leveling. Enchanters get easy chardok groups...but Bards have swarm kiting. Both can charm or group (but id give the edge to enchanter here).

[Ivory]

Necromancer!!

Pet
Charm
Mez
Twitch

Mega Dots
Lifetaps
Heals

FD!!!

https://media.giphy.com/media/KdNv8RPTo2DU4/giphy.gif

[Troxx]

For raw cc, in most cases enchanters will win handily.

In a direct dps comparison, a charming enchanter will always win.

Best not to directly compare. On my bard I've pulled off steady CC on 5-15 mobs continuously for over a half hour while the monk kept chain pulling anything and everything he could find up (God bless lv 54 aoe string snare) - ench can't do that. In the right circumstances, we shine with CC if you know what you're doing. At other points we are more than sufficient.

Bards are just different and how well they do depends a lot on skill. Many bards are terrible, and most of the rest are mediocre.

At the high end, I can feed mana faster than an enchanter, heal everyone in the group for 50/tick, tank content pretty easily, cc like a beast in some scenarios and adequately enough to get the job done in most other situations. Pulling is a cinch.

But ...

An ench with pet will always out-dps me.
An enchanter will give better and more reliable haste.
An enchanter will give (I'd argue) BETTER crowd control most of the time.
A mediocre ench will do more for a group than a mediocre bard.


The nice thing is, bard and ench actually complement each other nicely - especially if the chanter is charming.

[Loke]

Enchanter and Bard are the two classes I've played a lot recently and I'd say it ultimately comes down to your play style and what youre doing. In a normal situation, I find Bards to be the more fun class because over all I think the bard is the more difficult class, so in a boring exp grind or farm group it makes me more engaged in what I'm doing. I played a Bard before I picked up Enchanter and I distinctly remember thinking that playing the enchanter was a lot like playing a bard, but on easy mode. AE stuns and mez enable you to temporarily hit the pause button in "oh shit" situations. On the Bard, I felt like I always had to be hyper-aware and have contingency plans prepared for when things went south, where in contrast the enchanter let me just kind of play things by ear (to some extent, obviously having a contingency plan is always preferable).

I think in small group and solo settings the enchanter is unquestionably the stronger class. Even a bad, lazy enchanter can drastically improve a group, where as a bard actually needs to be good at the their class to really make people realize how useful they can be. A bard also needs to know more about other classes than most characters since they need to be able to readily determine what role they should play in the group. An enchanter can join any group, toss out mana buffs and haste, charm a pet, and be golden. A bard on the other hand needs to decide which songs would make the largest impact to the group set up, and determine what duties they can ignore since someone else in the group is more suited for that task.

I think I'd rather raid on my bard, but since I just play casually now I end up playing the chanter a lot more. If I were leveling I'd play the bard if I wanted to group, and the enchanter if I wanted to solo/duo. I would definitely suggest that anyone who loves their bard give chanter a try. Both were classes that never appealed to me, but are now my favorite (along with monk). Both will probably always be in high demand raiding, so if that is what you want to do, either will be fine.

[Loke]

Double post apparently.

[nhdjoseywales]

As a bard, my favorite groups involve an enchanter and bard together. Get a few dps together, a solid tank and cleric, and a bard can pull and over pull because everyone's going to have mana and the mobs are going to die super fast.

A bard and chanter who work well together is an awesome thing to behold. Bard can pull multiples, he charms the first add, chanter mezzes the rest. You then have double charm pet dps, mobs waiting to be killed, and super mana regen.

[nhdjoseywales]

Bard is a better raid class atm. Ideally, all or near-all raid groups would have bards in them. You really only need 2-4 enchanters for the vast majority of raids. As interactive and fun as the Enchanter class can be -- Bard is one of the only classes that is even more interactive and has even more possible uses.

It's hard to say who is faster at leveling. Enchanters get easy chardok groups...but Bards have swarm kiting. Both can charm or group (but id give the edge to enchanter here).

Chanter charm pet dps > most of your raid toon dps. On Phinny we roll like a dozen chanters each night. The hard part is finding pets for all of us but man shit dies fast. Trash clearing in Hate and Fear is completely trivial with half a dozen charm pets.

[thufir]

Bards are awesome. Remember they can charm for 18 second stints themselves, which makes it easy to kill the charmed pet when you're done with it. And AoE mez is a lifesaver with a bad pull. We call it "bard insurance". (Yes, it keeps working past level 25 mobs, no matter what the wiki tells you.) They can tank for awhile, too. I look at bards as the tank/enchanter hybrid that isn't. Also, the clarity songs stack with normal clarity.

There's no "better" here. Really, you can't go wrong with both a bard and an enchanter.

[Tupakk]

If your using your AOE Mez past mistmoore then you are a brave soul.

[indiscriminate_hater]

does aoe mez even work? last time i tried i failed to aoe mez a group of level 10 mobs as a level 60 bard

[iruinedyourday]

If your using your AOE Mez past mistmoore then you are a brave soul.

aoe mez is the best!

level 57+ its basically the most op thing on the market.

I mean you might even get to a point where you replace your level 4 mez with aoe mez and just give zero fucks because you want more spell gems avail.

also aoe slow for shaman basically makes all enchanters go :( in group situations because their CC suddenly feels worthless.

[thufir]

does aoe mez even work? last time i tried i failed to aoe mez a group of level 10 mobs as a level 60 bard
It works to the point of ridiculousness. We first noticed it in Kerra. Turns out even huge cat trains really enjoy a good song. Leveling up with my static group we'd frequently have 10+ goblins nodding their heads in Sola. (Once we had over 20, but it gets dicey with larger numbers; one bad rng will cause a lot of bashes and ruin your day.)

You get more resists later, when you're fighting mobs that are more magic resistant. But it stays useful. Best kept secret on the server imo. I don't know why the wiki claims it stops working at 25.

[Loke]

aoe mez is the best!

level 57+ its basically the most op thing on the market.

I mean you might even get to a point where you replace your level 4 mez with aoe mez and just give zero fucks because you want more spell gems avail.

also aoe slow for shaman basically makes all enchanters go :( in group situations because their CC suddenly feels worthless.

I think he was talking about bard AoE mez, not chanter. Chanter AoE mez is indeed the best, it is almost always my number 1 spell gem and I rarely use any other mez. I havent really used Bard AoE mez since the early Kunark nerf, so not sure if it is still worthless, but I'm pretty sure it isn't ridiculously OP like it used to be.

Edit: I think the reason the wiki claims it doesnt work as well 25+ is because it used to work amazingly well 25+, and in contrast it is a far cry from what it used to be. Bards used to be able to lock down entire end game zones, and unless things have changed, they definitely can't anymore. It might still be situationally useful now, especially at lower levels, but I highly doubt many 50+ bards are using it with any regularity.

[thufir]

I think he was talking about bard AoE mez, not chanter. Chanter AoE mez is indeed the best, it is almost always my number 1 spell gem and I rarely use any other mez. I havent really used Bard AoE mez since the early Kunark nerf, so not sure if it is still worthless, but I'm pretty sure it isn't ridiculously OP like it used to be.

Edit: I think the reason the wiki claims it doesnt work as well 25+ is because it used to work amazingly well 25+, and in contrast it is a far cry from what it used to be. Bards used to be able to lock down entire end game zones, and unless things have changed, they definitely can't anymore. It might still be situationally useful now, especially at lower levels, but I highly doubt many 50+ bards are using it with any regularity.

Seems to work fine on 30+ mobs. In my experience it gets resisted about as often as any chanter mez, single target or group. It's irritating for it to get resisted once out of six mobs and then get bashed out of the song, sure; I think this is where people get agitated about it. But it definitely works.

[iruinedyourday]

I think he was talking about bard AoE mez, not chanter. Chanter AoE mez is indeed the best, it is almost always my number 1 spell gem and I rarely use any other mez. I havent really used Bard AoE mez since the early Kunark nerf, so not sure if it is still worthless, but I'm pretty sure it isn't ridiculously OP like it used to be.

Edit: I think the reason the wiki claims it doesnt work as well 25+ is because it used to work amazingly well 25+, and in contrast it is a far cry from what it used to be. Bards used to be able to lock down entire end game zones, and unless things have changed, they definitely can't anymore. It might still be situationally useful now, especially at lower levels, but I highly doubt many 50+ bards are using it with any regularity.

ah yes my bad heh!

[brecon]

OP question was about group desirability. As several commentators have said, Bards can fulfill multiple roles, and they stack well with enchanters. Because of this, Bards are very difficult to play well. You need to really know your songs and adjust your twist based upon (1) your role, (2) the group composition, (3) the mobs you are fighting.

This leads to a second issue: there are lots of bad bards out there. Any bard that leveled up by aoe kiting is unlikely to have the full mastery over his song library. This becomes especially problematic in the 40s, when bards get a lot of songs that can be hugely useful for xp grouping, but seem somewhat similar until you play around with them.

If I was in an xp group and we had a choice between an enchanter and a bard for a sole CC slot, I'd take an enchanter. Even if the enchanter is bad and doesn't charm, he still should be able to CC small numbers while casting haste and clarity. For a bard to CC 3 mobs, he won't be able to play both mana regen and haste at the same time...

But as said before, a Bard can fill in as puller, or as a Tank (though this falls off in the 50s, similar to ranger -tanks), or as a dps, or as haste/mana pump, or as a CC. So if you get a group with a skilled bard, all you need is a healer and any 4 other classes.

[nhdjoseywales]

I think he was talking about bard AoE mez, not chanter. Chanter AoE mez is indeed the best, it is almost always my number 1 spell gem and I rarely use any other mez. I havent really used Bard AoE mez since the early Kunark nerf, so not sure if it is still worthless, but I'm pretty sure it isn't ridiculously OP like it used to be.

Edit: I think the reason the wiki claims it doesnt work as well 25+ is because it used to work amazingly well 25+, and in contrast it is a far cry from what it used to be. Bards used to be able to lock down entire end game zones, and unless things have changed, they definitely can't anymore. It might still be situationally useful now, especially at lower levels, but I highly doubt many 50+ bards are using it with any regularity.

Funny story....when i moved back to live and rolled a chanter on Lockjaw i ran into several folks who felt they needed to "tell me how to play an enchanter" and how they never ever use ae mezz and how useless it is. I still laugh at those people. It works even better on live becasue you can overwrite it with longer duration mezzes. I cant count the number of times ae mezz has saved the groups ass from an accidental or intentional train. And of course the time i was out of grouping the chanter for buffs and nukes and the in group druid freaked out and evaced my wizzies group. Ae mezz, origin, problem solved.

[Troxx]

My biggest frustration with cc-ing on a bard was touched on above. If I'm trying to mez more than 2 targets it gets hard to keep haste/regen etc up. The one exception to this is the aoe snare song. If you have room to kite (doesn't take much room as the snare is wtfpowerful with strings equipped) you can cc 3 mobs or 30 mobs pretty effortlessly while keeping 2-3 other songs rolling. The snare cc is not for the feint of heart though. One slip up with a lot of cc-d mobs can turn ugly if they bash you at the wrong time and the snare drops.

It's powerful but kinda a zero sum thing on intentionally large pulls. If the bard dies you now have 3, 5, or 10 mobs loose in camp with no cc.

Fastest group I was ever in was 3 rogues a monk cleric and me in an otherwise empty KC. Monk just chain pulled 5-6 at a time while I kept it all locked/snared/chasing-me and the rogues mowed them down with bardly haste.

I'm pretty sure we kept both cys, captain, moat, and most of basement dead with some downtime. Only problem was when we pulled mobs that summoned. Monk had to avoid those for routine pulls and single them after the swarms were dead.

[Coridan]

I definitely still use my AoE mez in the 40s at least. Has saved my groups a couple times in SolA. It does get more oftne now than it used to, but it is still more reliable than fear, which is a missed note like 3 out of every 5 castings.