Sneak pulling

[paulgiamatti]

Hypothesis: Tagging a mob that does not have you in its line of sight, while sneaking, should decrease the aggro radius of that mob. This means that other mobs that are not looking at the mob you tagged can still aggro if they're close enough - just like with Harmony or Lull. It is, for all intents and purposes, a minor Harmony/Lull effect. This also means that other mobs that are looking at the mob you tagged will not aggro if they're outside of the reduced aggro radius of the mob you sneak-tagged.

Evidence:

From Monkly Business, 10/3/2000 (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?8889#post99686)
Its claimed that sneak can be used as a minor harmony effect on *SOCIAL* mobs to reduce their add radius, but personally I haven't had much success with this at all.

From The Safehouse, 6/11/01 (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling)

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

From Monkly Business, 6/25/01 (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?8889#post99718):

You don't even have to do the FD pull if you have enough room to maneuver. Just turn on Sneak

and walk up to mobs from the side so that you will become closer to one than the others. As soon

as you come within aggro range of the mob he will come after you and the others will stay.



Walk backwards till you are clear of aggro range of the other mobs then un-sneak and run back to

your beatdown posse.


Evidence to the contrary:

From Monkly Business, 9/25/2000 (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?8889#post99686)

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.


Discuss, and please prove this wrong.

[Ikon]

I believe this is correct. You could also sneak pull by using sit. Sneak reduces your aggro, sit increases it. So outside of range of standing sneak aggro, sit, aggro mob, stand immediately others don't aggro.

[paulgiamatti]

Also, kind of a given but obviously once sneak breaks then the aggro reduction effect stops.

[Brocode]

isnt the game like this atm? I mean i can solo pull an npc on top of each other as long they are not facing me or in range once my sneak break.

[paulgiamatti]

Nope, I don't think you've understood my post. Aggro radius reduction is massively different from the current all-or-nothing LoS check. The contrary evidence suggests that the latter is indeed classic, but it seems like there is more evidence to support my minor Harmony/Lull hypothesis. Hoping others will do some classicquesting to find more evidence on either side.

[Ikon]

Nope, I don't think you've understood my post. Aggro radius reduction is massively different from the current all-or-nothing LoS check. The contrary evidence suggests that the latter is indeed classic, but it seems like there is more evidence to support my minor Harmony/Lull hypothesis. Hoping others will do some classicquesting to find more evidence on either side.
Been going through these links (https://web.archive.org/web/20000301011009/http://www.verant.com/links.html) - lot of info but not enough time to look it all up. Might find some useful stuff as well here (https://web.archive.org/web/20021130120342/http://magecompendium.com/) - need to go to the [Site Map] link on the side to get the info, its organized by month through 1999 to 2001 I think

[nilbog]

Bump.

What all is wrong with sneak pulling? Is it too easy to pull npcs? How is it functioning differently than classic?

Be as specific as possible, and it will be looked into.

[pasi]

Going to tackle just the low hanging fruit here.

Counter-point to sneaking behind an NPC being a radius reduction as opposed to an all-or-nothing check: Whistling Fists (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=1608)

[Raev]

So there was a long thread on the TAKP forums recently about sneak. In short Lazie wanted P99 sneak and the devs pushed back pretty hard. http://www.takproject.net/forums/index.php?threads/sneak-and-attacking-of-any-type.7066 After reading everything, including the Safehouse threads and Autumn's guide I had two ideas:

Theory #1: NPCs in classic EQ had three attack modes:

initial engage: Every server tick the NPC would check for KOS PCs in it's aggro range and attack them. Sneak eliminates this check while behind the NPC and reduces it in front.
call for help: When an NPC is first engaged/engages a PC, it immediately calls for help to nearby NPCs who respond if it is inside their assist radius. Sneak eliminates this check while behind the NPC and reduces it in front.
assist: Every server tick the NPC checks for engaged NPCs in it's assist radius and assists them. Sneak does NOT affect this check.


So if you tag a NPC with sneak, you'll get a single pull if it gets out of the unmodified assist range of its comrades before the server tick, but otherwise not. This explanation has a number of advantages: it explains why sneak pulling was so inconsistent, why it seemed to depend on level and situation, why some people would swear by it and others would put up 10K rewards and refuse to pay out, why it seems to work better when NPCs are pathing back, etc.

Theory #2: we had long threads on invis pulling here and I believe the conclusion was that mobs should not reaggro indifferent players on the FD list. I'm guessing Verant simply didn't have a IsFeigned() function and used IsIndifferent() instead. However, it should not actually clear the FD memory list. If you look at classic screenshots monks don't even have Sneak on their hotbar

However, almost certainly sneak should not clear the FD memory list, and Sneak should drop on ranged attack. Monking on Project 1999 is 100% trivial. You send in a holgresh eye while FD, draw the mobs out, stand with sneak, and tag the last one on the way back. I can pull HOT on Raev solo with 0.0 risk to myself, which is nowhere near classic. Instead Monks should get added to the FD memory list when the eye is engaged, sneak should drop on ranged attack, and sneak shouldn't provide this guaranteed single pull.

Anyway these are just theories; I'd trust whatever Daldaen and Maurice come up with.

[pasi]

Theory #1: NPCs in classic EQ had three attack modes:

initial engage: Every server tick the NPC would check for KOS PCs in it's aggro range and attack them. Sneak eliminates this check while behind the NPC and reduces it in front.
call for help: When an NPC is first engaged/engages a PC, it immediately calls for help to nearby NPCs who respond if it is inside their assist radius. Sneak eliminates this check while behind the NPC and reduces it in front.
assist: Every server tick the NPC checks for engaged NPCs in it's assist radius and assists them. Sneak does NOT affect this check.


And here comes my pal Lor to tackle the higher fruit.

This mostly matches my experiences. I've bolded the parts that I'm not sure of (or disagree with).

A couple minor bits though. More looking to address the mechanics of NPC aggro versus discuss specifically sneak here. Sneak is obviously more complicated than invis, but invis's simplicity gives us a cleaner look to start with.

I think part 1 of this theory is spot on. I'm not sure if the aggro tick is on the same sever tick interval (ie when HP/mana regen) or if it is 6 seconds. But a common scenario of running past see-invis mobs and often times either the mob wouldnt aggro or someone other than the first person to run through would pull aggro. The best evidence for aggro being on some sort of a server side tick is the existence of circlet of shadow shenanigans.

In terms of #2, I agree that when a mob is aggroed, it immediately calls for help.
When doing this with invis on live, anything in the initial assist radius would aggro if it were social. Didn't matter if you were invis or not. Range to target was a factor. I.E you could have nearby mobs not assist on initial aggro if you were firing at max range with a Doomshade Bow. But that's another thread entirely.

Part #3 is where I have the most issue. I obviously agree with mobs periodically calling for assistance outside the initial aggro. However, this is where I believe con-changes like invis or sneak function. On live, you could pull a mob, be invis, and parade it through social mobs who would not assist unless they saw through invis.
I look at sneak functioning the same as a positional invisibility for these mechanics. Could be definitely be wrong on sneak functioning like this though.

Going to try to re-install EQlive this week and fuck-around as this shit is a lot easier to demonstrate with a video than words.

[Raev]

It's simply a theory and could easily be all wrong; I played a Magician on Live and quit in early Kunark so I don't have first hand experience with exactly how it worked. If you think Sneak mechanics haven't changed on Live it's easy enough to test: if my theory is correct there should be a short lag before NPCs assist on a sneak tag vs normal.

It seems to me that sneak must somehow affect that initial assist broadcast, albeit in an inconsistent manner that is highly dependent on level/geometry, or people would not be writing guides about how to sneak pull. Or maybe range/level is a factor; I don't think either are relevant on P99 except for greens sometimes not assisting. Reading the sneak guides it seems like level was a big factor.

Anyway, I'll be very curious to see what you come up with.

[paulgiamatti]

Paul asserts that the aggro radius reduction caused by sneak should be less effective.

Small but important correction: the current implementation of sneak pulling is not an aggro radius reduction, it's a line of sight check. Meaning mobs gaining social aggro from a sneak pull is not contingent on their proximity to the mob you tag - it's 100% contingent on its line of sight toward you, and other mobs' line of sight toward you and the tagged mob. I'm suggesting that this is wrong and it should be changed to an aggro radius reduction.

So this is 100% about social aggro mechanics - you should be able to sneak pull a mob away from another mob that's looking directly at it, provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range.

Another theory is that it doesn't always work, but that would be much more difficult to prove.

[Ikon]

Small but important correction: the current implementation of sneak pulling is not an aggro radius reduction, it's a line of sight check. Meaning mobs gaining social aggro from a sneak pull is not contingent on their proximity to the mob you tag - it's 100% contingent on its line of sight toward you, and other mobs' line of sight toward the tagged mob. I'm suggesting that this is wrong and it should be changed to an aggro radius reduction.
It was both line of sight and aggro radius - this post might clear up a few things, from 2001 Safehouse:

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am
http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling

[paulgiamatti]

It was both line of sight and aggro radius

Right - I'm positing that the line of sight check between other mobs and the mob you tag is completely wrong and never existed on live. There should be a line of sight check between you and the mob you tag, and between you and other mobs within social aggro proximity of the mob you tag.

So this is 100% about social aggro mechanics - you should be able to sneak pull a mob away from another mob that's looking directly at it, provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range.

I slightly misspoke here too, I meant to write "provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob also has its back to you, and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range."

There's also some speculation about where exactly this aggro radius originates - it might not be a radius around the mob you tag, but instead a radius around the player, and as long as other mobs are outside of your sneak-aggro circle and fail a LoS check with you, they will not come with the mob you tag. This would also explain the conflicting testimonies during the same era - if it's an aggro radius that originates around you, and not the mob you tag, then there'd still be situations where you can sneak pull a mob that's directly on top of another mob, provided you're far away enough from both of them. This would also explain why people stressed the effectiveness of long-range weapons like bows when sneak pulling.

[Ikon]

Right - I'm positing that the line of sight check between other mobs and the mob you tag is completely wrong and never existed on live. There should be a line of sight check between you and the mob you tag, and between you and other mobs within social aggro proximity of the mob you tag.



I slightly misspoke here too, I meant to write "provided the mob you tag has its back turned to you and the other mob also has its back to you, and the other mob falls outside the reduced sneak-pull aggro range."

There's also some speculation about where exactly this aggro radius originates - it might not be a radius around the mob you tag, but instead a radius around the player, and as long as other mobs are outside of your sneak-aggro circle and fail a LoS check with you, they will not come with the mob you tag. This would also explain the conflicting testimonies during the same era - if it's an aggro radius that originates around you, and not the mob you tag, then there'd still be situations where you can sneak pull a mob that's directly on top of another mob, provided you're far away enough from both of them. This would also explain why people stressed the effectiveness of long-range weapons like bows when sneak pulling.
I think it almost certainly is around the player - which is why if you have sneak on and you pull the closest mob from extreme range with a bow, even if both are facing you, only the the one you shot wouldl come. If it was around the mob both would.

Probably something like this -

1. If mob is hit broadcast for assistance
2. IF nearby mobs are in range of aggroed mobs assist broadcast AND player is close enough to have their assist aggro radius overlapping non-aggroed mobs (always without sneak) AND mob can see player (always without sneak or obstruction) THEN assist broadcasting mob

[paulgiamatti]

I think it almost certainly is around the player - which is why if you have sneak on and you pull the closest mob from extreme range with a bow, even if both are facing you, only the the one you shot wouldl come. If it was around the mob both would.

I would think the LoS check isn't constrained by anything - no matter how far away the mob is from you when you tag it, it still has to fail the LoS check with you, and the same would be true for any additional mobs. At least, I didn't read any posts suggesting that you can sneak pull mobs that are looking at you - it was pretty unanimous that the LoS check always applies. They can be facing each other, but they can't be facing you.

[Haynar]

On EQlive, I did some tests with sneak just now. I saw no reduction in aggro range, if sneak was up. If sneak was up, the indifferent mob I was behind, you could get right on top of them just about. And no aggro. They were indifferent.

If I body pulled, and they did not hit me. No adds. With the one aggro'd pulled right over the top of one i was behind.

[paulgiamatti]

I would think the LoS check isn't constrained by anything - no matter how far away the mob is from you when you tag it, it still has to fail the LoS check with you, and the same would be true for any additional mobs. At least, I didn't read any posts suggesting that you can sneak pull mobs that are looking at you - it was pretty unanimous that the LoS check always applies. They can be facing each other, but they can't be facing you.

I stand corrected - from Monkly Business (http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/topic/534/Laotzus-Guide-to-Advanced-Pulling?page=2#.WHGhHBsrK71) during late-Velious era:

Mob LoS also seems to have a maximum distance. If I whip a Shuriken of Quellious at a frog, I can usually solo pull it by running backwards as I throw to gain distance on the attack.

[Phantasm]

Well thats unclear. Was he sneaking? Was it simply reduced mob aggro radius from sneak or a mob LoS check?

[Ikon]

On EQlive, I did some tests with sneak just now. I saw no reduction in aggro range, if sneak was up. If sneak was up, the indifferent mob I was behind, you could get right on top of them just about. And no aggro. They were indifferent.

If I body pulled, and they did not hit me. No adds. With the one aggro'd pulled right over the top of one i was behind.
There wont be any reduction in aggro range from behind because of the LOS check. There's a definite reduction with sneak when a mob is in the arc though and you could always use that to sneak pull as long as any mobs you didnt want to pull were facing away or other mobs were outside of maximum sneak aggro range.

[paulgiamatti]

On EQlive, I did some tests with sneak just now. I saw no reduction in aggro range, if sneak was up. If sneak was up, the indifferent mob I was behind, you could get right on top of them just about. And no aggro. They were indifferent.

No one's saying that the sneak ability should work any differently than it currently does - we're talking about sneak pulling social aggro mechanics specifically. So it would be a totally separate thing - a second special aggro radius that appears the instant your projectile hits a mob while you're sneaking. Your standard sneak wouldn't break, meaning you could throw that projectile standing right next to another mob without it noticing.

If I body pulled, and they did not hit me. No adds. With the one aggro'd pulled right over the top of one i was behind.

Yeah I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if sneak pulling on current EQ live works a lot like it does here - the thing you guys need to be asking as developers who want to make this a true recreation is if lots of testimonials pulled from period-correct message board posts is more legitimate than the way it currently works on live. This issue might be too complicated and ambiguous to really run with anything though, so it's totally understandable to go the EQ live route.

[paulgiamatti]

Well thats unclear. Was he sneaking? Was it simply reduced mob aggro radius from sneak or a mob LoS check?

Hmm, actually on a second look he might not have been. It was posted in a thread where they were discussing sneak pulling though. Also, it was posted after they implemented the new aggro mechanic changes like lazy aggro, so that makes it even more unclear. I can only assume those changes affected sneak pulling in some way - I'd rather see the lazy aggro stuff get implemented on P99 first.

[Ikon]

http://i.imgur.com/fKcjqSj.jpg
Basically this is sneak pulling from the front.

Normally any mob that you can hit that would normally be assisted will be well within the assist radius.

However with sneak the assist radius shrinks so that with skill you can pull mobs from the front that normally wouldn't be possible.

[paulgiamatti]

http://imgur.com/A90o6hB.png

So the mob's normal social assist still applies - there are just some line of sight checks going on when it's a sneak pull. It checks if the mob you tag is looking at you, and if that fails (meaning it's looking away and therefore a potentially successful sneak pull) then it checks for mobs within its normal social aggro radius. If mobs exist = true, then it performs another line of sight check between those mobs and you.

However, here's another potential mechanic, which would partially explain what you're describing:

http://imgur.com/4GzHk9Z.png

Even in that scenario, there would still be a line of sight check between you and the mob you're tagging, and if that check = true then it would use its normal social assist - the sneak tag would fail. In other words, the other mob that's looking at you would only stay put if the mob you're tagging is looking away.

[Ikon]

http://imgur.com/A90o6hB.png

So the mob's normal social assist still applies - there are just some line of sight checks going on when it's a sneak pull. It checks if the mob you tag is looking at you, and if that fails (meaning it's looking away and therefore a potentially successful sneak pull) then it checks for mobs within its normal social aggro radius. If mobs exist = true, then it performs another line of sight check between those mobs and you.

However, here's another potential mechanic, which would partially explain what you're describing:

http://imgur.com/4GzHk9Z.png

Even in that scenario, there would still be a line of sight check between you and the mob you're tagging, and if that check = true then it would use its normal social assist - the sneak tag would fail. In other words, the other mob that's looking at you would only stay put if the mob you're tagging is looking away.
I'm not sure exactly how it worked, what you say might have been how it worked sure.

There was a way to pull mobs with sneak when they were both looking at you, as described in the link I posted earlier. I was imagining it worked based on a radius centred aroun the player. As in if the PC had a radius of 100 and the mob was outside of that radius then it wouldnt matter if the extra mob was looking or not, it couldnt see you. If you tagged a mob at 99 and the other mob was at 101 the other mob would just stand there.

Thats just speculation though.

[Phantasm]

Find a straight line of low level mobs on a high level monk.
Make sure you can get only one to attack you with body aggro.
Find max distance sit aggro affects you.
Turn on sneak.
Repeat
If sneak reduces frontal proxyimity aggro then it should prove as T/F. I think it mostly has to do with level though. Maybe also dealing with server tick issue.

To solve if sneak affects the social radius of a tagged mob then do the same as above but with mobs lined up across from one another. Like the jail cell in KC(just lower level).

[Haynar]

Find a straight line of low level mobs on a high level monk.
Make sure you can get only one to attack you with body aggro.
Find max distance sit aggro affects you.
Turn on sneak.
Repeat
If sneak reduces frontal proxyimity aggro then it should prove as T/F. I think it mostly has to do with level though. Maybe also dealing with server tick issue.

To solve if sneak affects the social radius of a tagged mob then do the same as above but with mobs lined up across from one another. Like the jail cell in KC(just lower level).
Sneak does not reduce aggro radius on EQlive.

H

[Raev]

Sneak does not reduce aggro radius on EQlive.

H

What experiments did you do, exactly, and what was the result?

[Haynar]

What experiments did you do, exactly, and what was the result?

Was waiting on ur detailed test plan.

[Raev]

No need for snark; I'm just curious because I remember reading Torven saying sneak didn't work at all on Live, so I'm wondering what the difference was.

[paulgiamatti]

From The Safehouse (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling):

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

This is pretty interesting, and I'm having a hard time believing that this guy would mistakenly describe something so simple with such confidence. If this is true, then that means sneak pulling mechanics on P99, and probably on EQ live as well, are drastically different than they were during this era.

Essentially he's saying that even sneak pulling at close range was normally done with your target looking at you, and it's only the other mobs in proximity that needed to be turned away. And if you get enough distance between you and your target, you can single it out even if both mobs are looking your way. This also suggests that sneaking in general should reduce your aggro radius for mobs that have you in sight - that when you're sneaking, you should be able to get closer to mobs from the front than you normally can.

It's possible that the social assist circles I added to the diagram completely disappear when you have sneak engaged and tag a mob with a projectile, and it switches to only your own aggro radius for the social assist checks. That's really the only way that what this guy is describing could be true.

[Haynar]

No need for snark; I'm just curious because I remember reading Torven saying sneak didn't work at all on Live, so I'm wondering what the difference was.I agree with Torven. Sneak pulling doesnt work on eqlive like is described. I am inclined to think it never did. There is some body pulling that seems to. But I am about to nerf the crap out of sneak pulling until there is some better proof.

[Haynar]

Isnt this how it works here? Thats the post on page 1 from 2001 confirming sneak pulling works. Why would it get nerfed?

This part of body pullinzg with sneak still works on eqlive. It will definitely stay. Still working on the rest.

[Ikon]

From The Safehouse (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2985-book-of-knowledge-sneak-pulling):



This is pretty interesting, and I'm having a hard time believing that this guy would mistakenly describe something so simple with such confidence. If this is true, then that means sneak pulling mechanics on P99, and probably on EQ live as well, are drastically different than they were during this era.

Essentially he's saying that even sneak pulling at close range was normally done with your target looking at you, and it's only the other mobs in proximity that needed to be turned away. And if you get enough distance between you and your target, you can single it out even if both mobs are looking your way. This also suggests that sneaking in general should reduce your aggro radius for mobs that have you in sight - that when you're sneaking, you should be able to get closer to mobs from the front than you normally can.

It's possible that the social assist circles I added to the diagram completely disappear when you have sneak engaged and tag a mob with a projectile, and it switches to only your own aggro radius for the social assist checks. That's really the only way that what this guy is describing could be true.
Yeah if you click on the library link on that website and go back one page that Zato guy wrote 20 other guides. They''re all well written. I'd say he probably knew what he was talking about but I'll look up so more evidence anyway.

[Raev]

I agree with Torven. Sneak pulling doesnt work on eqlive like is described. I am inclined to think it never did. There is some body pulling that seems to. But I am about to nerf the crap out of sneak pulling until there is some better proof.

I think EQ live is probably the best source of information we have on Sneak. It probably never changed and mirroring the behavior of live is going to be much better than going off of 50 conflicting posts in this particular case.

My gut feeling is that Sneak had SOME effect somewhere (maybe the body pulling that you mentioned) or there wouldn't have been a huge discussion about it; everyone would have agreed that it didn't work.

Will be very curious to see if Maurice can show us some stuff.

[Ikon]

I think EQ live is probably the best source of information we have on Sneak. It probably never changed and mirroring the behavior of live is going to be much better than going off of 50 conflicting posts in this particular case.

My gut feeling is that Sneak had SOME effect somewhere (maybe the body pulling that you mentioned) or there wouldn't have been a huge discussion about it; everyone would have agreed that it didn't work.

Will be very curious to see if Maurice can show us some stuff.
Its probably safest to go off live in the absence of concrete evidence. This post confused me though its from 2004, still arguing about it then, has a lot of links from early eq arguing about it as well :) Link (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/main-lounge/23347-the-10000pp-sneak-pull-challenge/page4?t=22755&highlight=sneak+pulling)

[pasi]

I'm off Thursday, hopefully get some EQing in then.

[Jimjam]

Some misconceptions just refuse to go away, like the idea that 2nd hand uses 1st hand delay (use a wurmslayer and a jade mace or weapons of significantly different type/delay and it becomes obvious this is not the case).

So yea, going of what you can learn from live might be a good idea, especially if a lot of elements of the conflicting posts are in alignment with the current live system.

Has a keen proponent of Halflings I will be sad to see yet another nerf to their OP hide/sneak skills, but we halflings have had it too good for a long, long time!

[Malk]

For what it's worth i've checked out my vintage EQ box with physical user manuals and if the EQ/kunark/velious ones don't give details about sneak, the PoP one says (translated from french) :

"To sneak behind or near someone without being heard"

The "or near" part would imply that there was an aggro radius reduction, but it doesn't help for the assist radius reduction thing.

[paulgiamatti]

Frontal aggro range for sneak is definitely something that's testable on live - would be interested to see some results for that, preferably with some fraps so the developers would know to what extent the range is reduced, if that's actually a thing.

[pasi]

Forgot my old Youtube login.

Anyhow this is all from EQLive. Who knows how much has changed mechanically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU0_ZbvaLls


Sneak does not reduce frontal aggro range.
Sneak works on the back for a full 180 degrees. If an NPC's frontside were a clock. Sneak would reduce the aggro radius by 100% from 3 to 9.
Not all mobs are vulnerable to sneak. This is kind of an odd one. I've got video, but didn't put into either of these. I noticed that the Temple Guardians in Kael by statue straight up ignore sneak.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N-H1yKErto

I dicked around in a few zones (namely ToV, Kael, Icewell, and Chardok). I felt the Dlammaz area was by far the most visual in demonstrating how sneak works. It's got large NPCs, multiple factions, and mobs facing all different directions.

Anyhow, my experiences from Live:

Sneak does not change the mechanics of an NPC's initial call for help
Sneak does not change the mechanics of an NPC's call for help while chasing a target.
Sneaking after FDing does not remove you from an NPC's threat list even if that mob has it's back turned to you.


NPCs who are aggroed to you will still con indifferent if you are either invisible to them or sneaking behind them.

Tried to also address mechanics of Invis Pulling/Assist and NPC range (leashing). Both of which are far more complicated than the above. That's next on the agenda.

[Lazie]

So there was a long thread on the TAKP forums recently about sneak. In short Lazie wanted P99 sneak and the devs pushed back pretty hard.

You must have trouble reading if you think that is what I wanted. I simply wanted sneak to stop breaking on range attacks.

It turned into another discussion entirely after that. The change I wanted got made. I do not like the way sneak works on P99. It has never been entirely classic.

[Timothy_Colwell]

Long ago, back in college, I played this game for fun and it was very inspiring and relaxing after a hard day at work. In fact, even games are a great way to learn English and it was cool for me. I also liked to learn different mechanics in the game, including the mechanics of sneaking, because in many games when the enemy does not see you it increases the damage

[Timothy_Colwell]

Long ago, back in college, I played this game for fun and it was very inspiring and relaxing after a hard day at work. In fact, even games are a great way to learn English and it was cool for me. I also liked to learn different mechanics in the game, including the mechanics of sneaking, because in many games when the enemy does not see you it increases the damage

By the way, few people know that games can really develop vocabulary. Learning is not always about boring sitting in the classroom. I found a way to combine learning English and having fun. I'm just passing through here: https://quizzes.studymoose.com/flashcards/entertainment quizzes and improve my vocabulary. By the way, there are a lot of different game mechanics and gamified ways of learning that are not very popular in schools now, except in the junior classes.

[Jimjam]

Good bot