P99 should have a +Mana cap and revised Base Mana Formula

[Rygar]

Below is a summary of this thread, I'll PM a mod to modify the original post and change the title! Let me know what you think:

Summary of +Mana Cap:

The +mana cap for P99 was not main stream knowledge until after Luclin hit and the percentage of mana you had was displayed. Afterwards, a post was made from a high end raider revealing his testing methods to determine a cap was indeed in place. At which point Devs faced some revolt from the masses and did some damage control.

Here is Rich Waters' explanation of the cap:
8/9/2002:
http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083
Hi, The mana cap has been a big topic lately, so I'd like to take a minute to address it. Mana caps have been in EverQuest since the game was released. They haven't been changed, made more restrictive, or added at a later date in order to keep casters down. The mana cap as it is now has been there since you created your character, and only recently become a topic of concern for players. Most things in EverQuest have a point of diminishing returns - a point where adding more of a resource yields little or no improvement. This is most obvious in your basic stats, where you can easily see that after your strength score hits 255 it does you no good to put on more strength enhancing gear. These kinds of caps aren't intended to cause you distress, and in many ways they can help support a well balanced game system. While we have an appreciation for the benefits that stat caps can bring to a system, we're also willing to look at things like this with an objective eye. The mana cap on worn items has been in since release, and hasn't come up before as an issue that players felt overly limited by. With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items. On test server now, we've changed the rule so that players get full value from all mana increasing worn items. We expect this will go live with the next patch. Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention, ____________________________ Rich Waters Lead Designer, EverQuest Sony Online Entertainment -------------------------------------------

This change just affects + Mana items. We didn't change the way a players mana is calculated from intelligence or wisdom, and we're happy with how that part of the system works. - Rich

Shortly afterwards that patch hit on 8/14/2002:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020814.html
Removed the cap for items that granted bonus mana.

So where was the player test that revealed this feature? Much love to Jaxon of P99 that uncovered those threads, I'll list them here as he posted, long read so I'll use spoiler tags:

Some members of FOH did some testing and verified the existence of a mana cap.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021023...?threadid=2252

Originally Posted by Frozboz
For a while now some friends of mine and I have theorized that there is a mana softcap - that is, a limit or "cap" on mana given from items. We all are pretty sure there is a cap of some sort. For a while now, Rombus has been saying it's around 5000, while others claim it's much lower. With the advent of percentages in the new UI, we're able to narrow down this cap a bit more. In fact this is really when it started bugging me, because while raid buffed it took me 13% mana to try to cast GSS (540 mana) with a manapool of 4520, it also took Sorceresa 13% to try and cast GSS as well with a mana pool of 4210. It seems to me that it should have shown a greater percentage to try and cast GSS for someone with a smaller mana pool. So I started to run some "tests". The mana numbers used here are from Magelo.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up I removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping me to 4220 or +1370 in items. I then put those items back on, and my mana bar stayed at 100%. My UI shows my mana bar percentage, so I can tell if it drops at all when +mana items are added. I removed 600 mana worth of items, dropping me to 3920, and my mana bar dropped to 92%.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up Sorceresa removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping her to 3910. She then put those items back on, and her mana bar dropped to 92%. Even adding 5 mana she saw it drop from 100% to 99%.

Bottom line? There seems to be a cap on how much mana items can give you. Neuro tinkered with this a bit, and found it to be exactly +1400 or 4250 total mana. Is this accurate? If not, what are we seeing there? And of what significance is this?


http://www.showeq.net/forums/archive...hp/t-1738.html

Here Ratt, a ShowEQ developer, criticizes Frozboz's testing methodology, but the criticism lies in the the degree of precision available by using the client for testing and the difference between client side and server side data.

Just to be clear, Ratt agrees there is a mana cap. His issue is with the 4250 number they came up with.
Originally Posted by Ratt
Yes, this was and is known by the general public. Verant stated this a long time ago, publically. Both on their message boards and also on all the news sites. I don't know how much more public you can get than this. It's not my fault you or others forgot this... I've never forgotten it and a lot of others never have forgotten it. It's been something very near and dear to me for quite a while as I tried to balance my character in mana vs hp.

Another poster named Neuro MT uses another method to pin down the exact number:

Originally Posted by Neuro MT
The client will display any mana amount under 100% as 99% (Or less). The client does not round up, so even a 1 mana change will register. Test it yourself if you don't believe me. Up until 1388, even a 1 mana increase in mana pool will drop your mana to 99% for one tick. Above 1388, even a 125 mana item will not budge your mana meter.

This cap, I believe, is a direct ratio of your total int-based mana. Someone told me that SEQ showed a 4164 total mana pool unbuffed, even when the pool should be higher. Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.

Originally Posted by throx
What Neuro is saying is that he has verified the client has a hard coded mana cap at +1388 in mana items. From there you have to assume one of two things:

i) The client code has good reason to arbitrarily limit +mana at 1388 (at Lv60) because that's what the coded limit on the servers is.

ii) For some reason best known to themselves the coders at Verant put a mana cap into the client but a different one on the server. It's well known that the client's mana numbers are inaccurate when presented with mana recharge or drain effects but this is not one of those cases. For it to work this way the code must deliberately cap mana differently on the client and the server.

I find the notion that the static mana caculation formula being identical on client and server to be the most reasonable hypothesis.

Originally Posted by Neuro MT
The client still resyncs with the server when you perform an action such as clicking jboots or on the tick. If the cap were only client-side, then putting on a large +mana item over the cap would drop to 97% after the tick or after you click jboots. Sadly, this does not happen. Thus, the cap is not only client side, it is server-side as well.
I think from this we can definitively conclude that there is +mana cap on items(and items alone, not +mana effects like GOB or KEI) of 1388.


Thanks Jaxon!! So we gather from that thread, that during that Luclin era the effective cap on your mana pool was 4,164. I do want to touch base quickly on the client vs. server formula for mana. It would appear that the formula for this was server side limitation (much like we find from Cinda's Charismatic Carillon thread which showed there was a server side cap on the faction for this spell regardless of the SPDAT file). Mana was purposely not shown in the client to keep it 'mysterious' per the original dev team, with client's being cracked and analyzed I'm not surprised they would keep the cap formula server side.

Back to Jaxon's post, there was an interesting blurb I picked up on that thread:
Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.

So the cap is not a hard cap on 'total mana', but it should be reflective of your base mana pool. Is there other evidence to back this up? Yes, there is, in classic era before many caught on about the +mana cap:
4/5/2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822133457/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc96.shtml
More on +Mana Topic
Well I was able to track down some additional information that I don't mind distributing. The benefit of +mana items is scaled to reduce the impact of twinking in certain circumstances. I can't give you the formula, but I can say that if you load up your level 1 guy with +300 in mana items, he doesn't have 300 more mana.
The benefit that you can receive from a +mana item is based upon your total natural mana.

5/4/2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822123451/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc87.shtml
You can only raise your mana with +mana items based upon the total base mana that you have. For instance, if someone has only 50 mana, and they don a +50 mana item, they do not have 100 mana. This isn't a function of the level, but of total mana. We won't let someone double their mana supply with +mana items.

So there we've established that this +mana cap is a function of your base mana, regardless of level. Exact formula? Who knows, but best evidence is a straight 50% cap of your base mana for worn +mana items (buffs can exceed this).

Summary of Mana Formula changes:
So... it may seem like P99 should have an effective max cap on your mana of 4164, right? WRONG!

As Raev and Daldaen had pointed out, it would appear that P99 is using a Luclin formula for calculating mana... Daldaen summed it up nicely below:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011204.html
12/4/2001 (Luclin launches)
Increased the amount of mana given by high Intelligence and Wisdom scores, as well as that granted by items and spells.

That 4164 mana value, which is the most accurately described number so far, is pulled from a post during late Luclin.

Meaning it occurred 8 months after the above patch which changed the calculation of 200-255 WIS/INT to Mana. The classic value seems to have been 1 Mana per 1 WIS/INT. The Luclin one 6 sticks in my mind but 5 fits the numbers more easily. This means the level 60 calculation is:

Classic = 12 Mana per WIS 0-200, 1 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683.

Luclin = 12.5 Mana per WIS 0-200, 5 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2775
Max +Mana = 1388
Total Max Worn Mana = 4163 (4164... rounding error probably)

---------------

I did notice through some postings that there were 'alternate' classic formulas posted, so not sure which is the true formula (a little birdie told me Haynar knows...).

My post listing those values is here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2611606&postcount=66

So possible 3,862 would be the max unbuffed mana pool obtained on P99, or perhaps 3,683 per Daldaen.

Lastly, Jaxon did find that the showEQ formula obtaining those numbers were the Luclin era calculation, and not the classic mana formula, his post on that summary is here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2611147&postcount=64

Conclusion:

I find this all to be very compelling evidence for a +mana cap and a mana formula revision, major changes require significant evidence and I feel that has been delivered here.

It may certainly explain a lot how testing fights against Tunare / AoW in Velious Beta was making easier fights than expected. It would seem there was a lot more mana available for CHeal chains, spot heals, twitches, etc.

I understand re-balancing that content with these formulas may be difficult and time consuming, but I say go ahead and implement! Most P99ers have already trivialized the encounters, this will just make them more of a challenge until the ATK values, etc can be dialed in. It may also encourage grouping with more members as all players will be taking a hit to their mana pool.

Thank you for your consideration! #Classic

[Rygar]

Bump... thread seems to show some definitive proof this cap existed, this could have great game changing dynamics for P99 end-gamers (may cause some tears, but... classic).

Dev comment..? Considering? Need more evidence? Not doable on P99 due to client?

[Raavak]

There is a primary stat softcap at 200, hardcap at 255. I don't think there has ever been a cap on secondary stats.

[Danth]

I wonder if some folks getting really high mana pools is related to the open bug report that int / wis above 200 should only give +1 mana instead of the heavy gains on p99.

This means we gain a couple hundred mana we wouldn't have had on Live in equivalent gear. Keep in mind the historic client did not show exact mana values like our Titanium client does. Mana pools had to be worked out via testing (usually casting fixed-cost spells with no active mana regen) and was something of an inexact science.

Personally I don't believe a hard cap on mana pool or hit points ever existed. Well...we were probably capped to 32,000 in the pre-Velious era for the same reason monsters were but that was a moot point. We have somewhat higher mana pools on P1999 due to the different way Wisdom behaves past 200 on P99 relative to Live.

Danth

[Rygar]

It did exist, it was confirmed by Rich Waters, a developer for EQ. Here is his post on the subject... upon further reading it seems like the precise mana cap is 4126.

http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083

[Rygar]

Some bolded quotes from that link, straight from Rich Waters:
Absor Station Admin posted 08-09-2002 10:16 AM Hi all. I just wanted to bring to you a comment from Rich about the way items affect mana and the �mana cap�. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, The mana cap has been a big topic lately, so I'd like to take a minute to address it. Mana caps have been in EverQuest since the game was released. They haven't been changed, made more restrictive, or added at a later date in order to keep casters down. The mana cap as it is now has been there since you created your character, and only recently become a topic of concern for players. Most things in EverQuest have a point of diminishing returns - a point where adding more of a resource yields little or no improvement. This is most obvious in your basic stats, where you can easily see that after your strength score hits 255 it does you no good to put on more strength enhancing gear. These kinds of caps aren't intended to cause you distress, and in many ways they can help support a well balanced game system. While we have an appreciation for the benefits that stat caps can bring to a system, we're also willing to look at things like this with an objective eye. The mana cap on worn items has been in since release, and hasn't come up before as an issue that players felt overly limited by. With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items. On test server now, we've changed the rule so that players get full value from all mana increasing worn items. We expect this will go live with the next patch. Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention, ____________________________ Rich Waters Lead Designer, EverQuest Sony Online Entertainment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Rich. Alan

Absor Station Admin posted 08-09-2002 12:20 PM One additional clarification: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This change just affects + Mana items. We didn't change the way a players mana is calculated from intelligence or wisdom, and we're happy with how that part of the system works. - Rich

a Pool Max

Reply

Ah, OK, so if your mana pool was at 4126 from your base and your INT or WIS items, depending on what kind of caster you are, and you had items that added 400 more mana, it would not do you any good.

Obviously there was no possible way to reach this in classic, I don't even think it was possible in Kunark (maybe for certain classes?), but with Velious and the NToV gear it became possible. In Luclin it obviously became more readily achieveable without tons of BiS, so hence the change to the cap being put in place.

[Rygar]

Not even close and that guy has no clue what he is talking about. "about 4200" lol. I am 4415 mana and still several slots from BiS.

First of all you are getting way more mana from your int/wis from 201-255, I believe you should only be gaining +55 mana from that, but on P99 you are getting the same gains as 1-200 wisdom per additional point.

Secondly, it wasn't the expectation that people would get full BiS in Velious, you've had 2 years as an end gamer on a lower population server than live with poopsocked content and zone-line insta pulls and aren't even full BiS. No one could realistically deck that far out.

I'm sorry, but all evidence points to this 4126 being the cap on mana, I think it should be put in place and eventually have the 201-255 mana corrected so gear choices can become a bit more apparent.

Having +300 mana over the old cap is nearly an additional Complete Heal or Nature's Touch, an additional Lure for a Wizard, an extra 1.5 torpors for a Shaman, etc. Just think of it as the same as mana gains from consuming 2 Mod Rods... that could make a difference in some long fights like AoW or 'low number engages'.

[Daldaen]

Solid evidence up in this thread.

Fixing this and the 201-255 WIS/INT returns would be extremely classic. Removing the ability for your Mana value to be displayed in your UI though would reach unparalleled levels of immersion.

[Raavak]

Absor Station Admin posted 08-09-2002 12:20 PM One additional clarification: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This change just affects + Mana items. We didn't change the way a players mana is calculated from intelligence or wisdom, and we're happy with how that part of the system works. - Rich

This thread/subject came up in Luclin era. Maybe the cap wasn't noticed until gear from that expansion?

If mana from wis/int is calculated wrong, I'd rather see that worked on personally.

[Rygar]

This thread/subject came up in Luclin era. Maybe the cap wasn't noticed until gear from that expansion?

If mana from wis/int is calculated wrong, I'd rather see that worked on personally.

It definitely became more apparent during Luclin, but the era really doesn't matter as there is confirmation that the cap was always in place since Day 1 launch.

I'm no dev so I don't know the difficulties in getting int/wis mana to calculate properly (just look at the nightmare that is displaying proper AC values). Maybe there is some client issue or a complicated thing to work on.

Either way, the number of the cap could be a good fix for now if there aren't any client issues doing so. People will still reach the cap easier than they could have in Velious until wis/int mana is fixed, but won't have 300 - 600 additional mana than they could have.

[Rygar]

I don't think it needs to be an all or nothing approach. If it turns out instituting the cap is very easy, but fixing wis/int values is very difficult, I think you do the easy thing first then work on the tough part.

At the very least this will give players a better picture of what they need for an encounter with a 'maxed out' mana pool. I realize this may appear unfair to some end-gamers as they have the best gear and want to be rewarded for that, but they can take solace in the fact that one day they will be rewarded (I'm sure that gear also has other benefits like resists, other stats, etc for the meantime).

If a dev commented that "At level 60 with 200 wis your mana will be X, at level 60 with 255 wis your mana will be Y once the mana calculation is made classic. Mana cap is currently set at 4,160... bid on your items accordingly", you could then at least figure out what kind of gear profile you are shooting for.

Would be interesting to see how this affects BiS builds... would Zlandicar's Heart go up in price for regen bonus (maybe other Aura of Battle items... hello Spirit Wracked Cord)? Would certain traditionally melee items start being bid on by casters? Maybe start building other stats for fun like +CHA (vendor pricing) or +STR (encumberment). Maybe you don't need 'BiS' but 2nd best or 3rd best item drops that bid for cheap fill out your mana cap easier.

Maybe it won't change much, but kind of exciting to see how Norrath adjusts.

[Rygar]

Getting to any type of cap without raid gear does not seem classic to me.

Both are not classic, making it 50% classic is a start though, no?

EDIT: Just thought of possible compromise... if fixing both of these issues is a tremendous nightmare, perhaps all Velious raid zones can have their HP increased by 10%. I figure 4600 / 4200 is roughly 10%. This will still reward end game profiles but encounter would last longer, draining that additional mana.

If / when the wis/int and mana cap fixes can be implemented, then just restore Velious raid zone HP to classic levels.

[LostCause]

Solid evidence up in this thread.

Fixing this and the 201-255 WIS/INT returns would be extremely classic. Removing the ability for your Mana value to be displayed in your UI though would reach unparalleled levels of immersion.

would love that and no 3rd person scroll

[Daldaen]

Getting to mana cap without raid gear does not seem classic to me.

The issue is not many people actually were aware of what their Mana pool was because it wasn't displayed in the UI until 2003/4.

Also I'd love to see the Magelo of a character with a 4200 Mana pool with 0 raid gear. I don't think that's happening currently on P99.

[Erati]

I posted the bug about int/wis cap long ago but a Mana cap sounds beyond dumb for a locked server like ours.

maybe when things are on the brink of classicness you roll out the proper wis/int caps to keep mana pools proper in era but capping raw mana just cause - naw this thread is going no where.

[Izmael]

no 3rd person scroll

NO

[Rygar]

I posted the bug about int/wis cap long ago but a Mana cap sounds beyond dumb for a locked server like ours.

maybe when things are on the brink of classicness you roll out the proper wis/int caps to keep mana pools proper in era but capping raw mana just cause - naw this thread is going no where.

I don't quite understand the logic here. That is like saying they should not cap any stats at 255 since this is a time locked server. It is a classic time locked server, with complete as possible classic mechanics.

I'm willing to bet not a lot of people knew about the mana cap from back in the day (i know i didn't). So sucks for those people to find out, but i think it is important to implement.

Hopefully can hear from a dev on feasibility.

[Daldaen]

I'm curious if the cap is just worn Mana or does it also include buffs like Gift of Brilliance.

[Rygar]

I'm curious if the cap is just worn Mana or does it also include buffs like Gift of Brilliance.

I sincerely hope mana buffs stack on top of the cap, else it will just further trivialize mana pools. The post specifically mentions +mana items, so I would interpret that as anything from your INT/WIS + Items cannot exceed 4,126 mana.

Probably much like worn AC used to have a hard cap but buffs still worked.

But who knows, I'll try and do some digging to confirm.

I'm not too knowledgeable on what classes have what +mana buffs or self buffs / clickies / songs and which stack and which don't. GoB looks to give +150 mana, if it didn't stack then no caster would really need to gear past 3,976 mana on raids if they paid attention to buffs. I'm sure there are at least 2 slots where people use +65 or +75 mana... this would just further trivialize gearing in my opinion.

But again, will try and dig up some evidence.

[Erati]

I don't quite understand the logic here. That is like saying they should not cap any stats at 255 since this is a time locked server. It is a classic time locked server, with complete as possible classic mechanics.

I'm willing to bet not a lot of people knew about the mana cap from back in the day (i know i didn't). So sucks for those people to find out, but i think it is important to implement.

Hopefully can hear from a dev on feasibility.

Here is the thread that I already commented on and supported which is what I feel more important than this potentially false speculative 'feature' that you are pushing here.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232455&highlight=wisdom

Int/Wisdom caps are too high here, thats been well known and established for a lonnnnngggg time. If you feel mana pools are not classic, you fix them by fixing the 255 stat cap returns because right now you probably get more mana than was intented for having your stats this high in this era but that might be something that cant be fixed with our client.

Implementing a hard cap of mana tho, is beyond dumb however because even if it did exist, it has no place on our server that at this point as p99 does not feature classic npc hit point pools, mana pools, damage calculations, Armor Class, Attack Ratings etc.

If all the core elements that make up every single npc engage is already not classic mostly thanks to the titanium client, why should the devs artificially hamstring the players playing here with a hard mana cap. If people get their mana above 4200 ( or whatever cap you make up ), more power to them, it doesnt affect YOUR gameplay.

Mana was not displayed during this era so its impossible to prove it was capped. This thread is pointless.

[Rygar]

Careful sir, you are venturing into ban territory by trolling bug forums.

First of all, where do you get i made this up? Did you read the links? This was a confirmed feature from EQs lead developer.

Secondly, I think the devs have shown they are willing to adjust mobs to be more in line with classic, such as the sontalak fear nerf. Maybe things aren't perfect, but we are essentially playing in an extended beta. To say you shouldn't limited mana pools is the same as saying you shouldn't have any ac hard or soft caps because mobs are too hard. You can't wait on implementing a fix always until another fix is in place... If they did that, then things would seldom get done around here.

Lastly, i don't see these mobs being unkillable here despite all these supposed non-classic hit points. People are also using soulfires / reapers / words / wort pots / mallets / recharges / zone pull tactics that weren't commonly known or widespread as in the day, so hard to argue about keeping it truly classic. Velious was defeated in kunark gear and you are upset to lose like 300 mana? A caster won't be able to brag about highest mana pool on the server and that a semi casual can have equal footing to an end game BiS profile is what seems to be upsetting you most.

[Rygar]

Again with the 'my imaginary cap' troll comments. I think you mean to mention that it would make classic EQ beyond retarded then, cause fact was that was the cap through Velious and into Luclin. I don't understand why you aren't HAPPY you will be at the cap that only an elite few potentially hit in era?? Hopefully mana will eventually be corrected to scale properly to WIS/INT/Level and your gear will lift you up properly above these empty slot people. In the meantime your NToV / end-game gear I'm sure gives you great resist / +HP / effect / benefits above other dropped items.

In the 201+ WIS/INT thread people seem to be all about 'make this classic' but now they find out 'uh oh, there is a +Mana item cap?' and they freak out about it and call it dumb.

Just stop trolling the thread unless you are going to offer something constructive. Saying 'this is retarded' or 'this is imaginary' despite lead EQ Developer confirmation is not helping your case.

[loramin]

Just stop trolling the thread unless you are going to offer something constructive. Saying 'this is retarded' or 'this is imaginary' despite lead EQ Developer confirmation is not helping your case.

[Erati]

cap it at 5K then

I just dont understand the purpose here if players wont reach the cap anyway whats the point ?

[Daldaen]

Walking around with half my gear on and mana capped would make this server beyond retarded. (yes half empty slots and I would still hit your imaginary cap).

With a cap of 4126, not many players will run into that especially after they resolve the 201-255 WIS/INT calculations. It's why the developers didn't address this until Luclin and uncap Mana values. No one grinded Velious as hard as P99ers for how long they have.

201-255 Mana calculations being wrong gives everyone an extra 275 Mana they shouldn't have. That's step one in this bug fix.

Judging by your gear which is basically best in slot, after the WIS/INT calculation fix you would only be 357 Mana beyond this hardcap. That's like 4 empty slots and you went for maximum Mana per slot in gearing. Perhaps you can swap out gear selectively for higher HP/AC/Resist gear when you're so far over Mana cap.

[Fazlazen]

I sense a lot of entitled scared poopsockers in here.

Bump for great classical justice

[Daldaen]

Reminds me of the great classic Ele-ing (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96039&highlight=Druid+track) when Druid track got nerfed down to 20/50 skill after several years of 125 track on P99 Druids. Hit right in the feels, but afterwards I'd never been so immersed. Mobs popping into vision before they appeared in the track window... I member.

[loramin]

If they are going to fix the scaling fine, but just putting a cap in place and having every cleric on the server with the same manapool is indeed retarded. Confirmed I can remove 6 pieces of gear and still hit this "cap". Hell our shitty geared 3 cleric bots are close to this also.

Allow me to correct the misunderstanding you seem to have about Project 1999. Blue/Red are not here for your (or mine, or any other player's) amusement: they are here to (essentially) beta test the code for "Green" (AKA the "as classic as humanly possible" server). Project 1999's maintainers didn't spend eight years of their life just to make people happy: if that was all they wanted they could have released a non-classic server years ago.

What they want is EQ as it was in 1999(-2001). That means mana caps, crappy druid tracking, no buff timers, no light blue mobs, etc. ... no matter how un-fun ("retarded") you or anyone else might think they are. Just bringing back buff timers would likely have the support of 95+% of the server ... but it wouldn't be classic and thus will never happen.

Now I can already hear you saying, "that's a ton of B.S. because ____ isn't classic". And you'd be right: Project 1999 is not complete yet. Until it is, the devs are going to keep working on it to make it as classic as possible, and they're not just going to ignore not-classic-thing A because they haven't yet fixed non-classic thing B.

Once you grok all that it should be much easier to understand why your arguments hold no water: the people who matter don't care about making the game "fun", they only care about making it classic ... and while the ultimate decision on mana caps is their's to make, Rygar has certainly presented a wealth of evidence that they are in fact classic.

[Raev]

I look forward to the 289 item AC hardcap as well

so you are probably safe happy

[Rygar]

No need to panic, we haven't heard from a dev yet. What may seem like a 'simple change' may indeed be a nightmare.

I honestly do understand your concerns and am having a slight change of heart, EQ is a game of progression and end-game raiding was meant to give you access to gear that moved your character to higher levels. It is not right to have basic thurg / HoT armor reach you at the cap where you may at least need a spread of end-game items to get there.

If the scaling of 201-255 is tough to fix but the mana cap is easy to implement, I would propose making it 4401 mana cap until the scaling is fixed (4,126 classic cap + 275 add'l mana from unclassic scaling).

This should still be made to cap the gains on +mana items (meaning, you can't ever reach 4,401 if your INT/WIS is less than 255), and when INT/WIS is fixed it will revert down to the classic 4,126 cap.

Raiding community no doubt put in work to their character, buying in tunnel shouldn't reach you to those levels.

That being said, what is the true 'classic' mana pool you should have with 255 INT/WIS at level 60? I know not what the exact formula should be. Whatever that number is, subtract it from 4,126 and that should be the limit you could gain from +mana items.

Capping +mana item returns would at least help you figure out how to progress your character and choose which items you'll want to bid on.

Edit: Checked out that 201+ INT/WIS thread. If this is the formula we are supposed to be at for 255 WIS/INT:
((LVL * 200)/5) + (2*30) + (255 - 200)

Then, for a level 60, their 255 WIS/INT mana pool is:
((60 * 200)/5) + (60) + 55 = 2,515 base mana

4,126 Mana cap - 2,515 base mana = +1,611 mana cap on ITEMS.

That is very close to the original link I posted where 1,588 was the cap on +mana items.

[Rygar]

Also, can a mod please change the thread title from '4200' to '4126'? Thank you much.

[Daldaen]

Don't let these nerds get to you Rygar.

People aren't simply hitting this Mana cap with HoT armor. My Druid has things like KT Boots/Belt, AoW Ring, HoT BP/Wrists, PoG/PoH2 Legs/Arms, Phara Dar Earring, Sanctum Earring, Epic, Falinkan, Hiero cloak etc. I am still 100 Mana away from hitting the cap. If I were to replace my Kunark/Velious raid gear with the best groupable alternatives you're looking at 400 Mana away and on top of that is the unclassic 275 Mana from 201-225 WIS Calculation.

The only people who will hit this cap are extremely hardcore raiders who have VP, NToV, Kael and City leader raid loot. More than half their slots filled with it. It's not your regular HoT geared caster that's going to be running into the cap. Especially if they can get the 201-255 scaling to work properly.

[Rygar]

Whatever the case may be, I think it will be interesting to see what drops that were previously considered 'alt fodder' become part of a caster's BiS build. I know there are sometimes items that people would like but 'ugh, only +50 mana', but now become a hot ticket. Maybe you don't need that Vulak piece to get maxed out.

Maybe smart raiders will read the writing on the wall and get some cheap grabs, or realize they can hit cap with sticking to things like HoT robe / BP or bid on some +100 HP items for some slots.

The best part is it would open up FashionQuest to people, of course.

[Bellringer]

Your evidence link in OP seems to no longer work. I would be very inclined to believe that there is a worn mana cap (as there are worn ac soft/hardcaps) if a dev actually indicated a number.

Unfortunately, based on the quotes you provided the Dev team does not seem to indicate what the numerical value is and you quote some rando who may have no idea how eq works throwing numbers from apparently nowhere.

Would love to see original documentation for context and clarification.

P.S. If you are getting upset about people saying "imaginary" or "pointless". Grow up and learn how to defend your position without crying about the opposition.

[Erati]

Also, can a mod please change the thread title from '4200' to '4126'? Thank you much.

Now you are going for clickbait lol

4126 mana is not an exact number that can be proven as the classic cap ( if it existed). Your evidence features a very casual in passing conversations on the internet and while I realize you cant 'prove' this with classic screenshots as mana wasn't displayed, you probably should search for additional commentary about the cap from OTHER sources besides this lone conversation.

Your evidence is lacking and the only thing here that everyone seems to agree on is that mana calculations are not correct here with respect to intelligence and wisdom above 201 all the way up to 255. The diminishing returns are not functioning as they should.

That is your crusade you should work on, your cap is about as imaginary as the raid boss in Lake Rathtear. I surely could find some textual quotations describing the monster - does that mean it existed in the actual game?

[Rygar]

As i mentioned in the OP the newsgroups direct links seem finicky, you can go to http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/topics?lnk=srg and search "/wave mana cap" and read the full thread, is more than just that snippet in there.

I'll try linking it again here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/9UAMOwxWD54/1mbWuZEZC2wJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest

I find newsgroups links are best used in a computer browser (I use Chrome) and not on a mobile device.

Also if you search like 4 posts down on the front page I posted the original dev comments, here is that link again:
http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083

I'm not click baiting at all, just going off what I'm seeing. I'm also not being childish in defending 'imaginary numbers', I'm being quite logical.

[Erati]

Also if you search like 4 posts down on the front page I posted the original dev comments, here is that link again:
http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083

I'm not click baiting at all, just going off what I'm seeing. I'm also not being childish in defending 'imaginary numbers', I'm being quite logical.

Here is a quote from your link that I feel applies to this thread.

These kinds of caps aren't intended to cause you distress, and in many ways they can help support a well balanced game system. While we have an appreciation for the benefits that stat caps can bring to a system, we're also willing to look at things like this with an objective eye. The mana cap on worn items has been in since release, and hasn't come up before as an issue that players felt overly limited by. With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items. On test server now, we've changed the rule so that players get full value from all mana increasing worn items. We expect this will go live with the next patch. Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention, ____________________________ Rich Waters Lead Designer, EverQuest Sony Online Entertainment

http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083

The lead designer said he doesnt want to cause 'distress' and feels its pointless to put an arbitrary cap on mana now that players are getting close to it with each expansion. They are even talking about increasing it so players never feel the cap.

Sounds like everything on p99 is fine then if thats how the original Devs wanted it....case closed.

[Rygar]

Here is a quote from your link that I feel applies to this thread.

These kinds of caps aren't intended to cause you distress, and in many ways they can help support a well balanced game system. While we have an appreciation for the benefits that stat caps can bring to a system, we're also willing to look at things like this with an objective eye. The mana cap on worn items has been in since release, and hasn't come up before as an issue that players felt overly limited by. With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items. On test server now, we've changed the rule so that players get full value from all mana increasing worn items. We expect this will go live with the next patch. Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention, ____________________________ Rich Waters Lead Designer, EverQuest Sony Online Entertainment

http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083

The lead designer said he doesnt want to cause 'distress' and feels its pointless to put an arbitrary cap on mana now that players are getting close to it with each expansion. They are even talking about increasing it so players never feel the cap.

Sounds like everything on p99 is fine then if thats how the original Devs wanted it....case closed.

So you are fine with nerfing Soulfires and Reapers and Wort Pots cause that is how the devs wanted it even though fixes came out of era? Your troll is strong.

I'm sure there were limitations on 255 caps they didn't really want or limited by only doing +100 (or +127 later on) stat caps on items due to database / programming limitations that were grandfathered in. There were probably a ton of things they saw no real reason to force but were limited to a certain type of 1999-2001 connection speeds, server limitations, programming messes, etc.

In the end it is up to the P99 dev team to decide what they want to implement, I have posted the evidence that this existed in era.

[Bellringer]

Thanks for the updated links. The updated context reaffirms that this 4200 number is based on full on rando's which is not a very responsible source of information. In order to justify this, we simply need better evidence.

To be clear: Your evidence that there is a worn mana cap is fine. However the evidence of a "4200ish" mana cap is extremely lacking. Perhaps find better info for this?

[Erati]

So you are fine with nerfing Soulfires and Reapers and Wort Pots cause that is how the devs wanted it even though fixes came out of era? Your troll is strong.


What does Soulfire and Reaper have to do with this thread? I just hilighted a quote from your evidence showing that even the Lead Devs back in the day felt this kind of cap wasnt needed in the game as players got close to it.

I too am just putting the evidence here for the devs to look over, didnt want them to not notice that comment.

[Rygar]

The point is if they decided to fix something out of era (like this cap), you are saying they should fix it in our era because it is what the devs concluded upon discussing how it affected players.

To further look at that quote:
With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items.

In 2002 they looked it over and reviewed it. Keep in mind this was decided when players could more easily reach the cap and AAs entered the scene and more powerful loot.

It was obvious they one day would NEED to move the cap anyways as they planned more and more expansions.

We are locked here with no expansions to look forward to.

Again, up to P99 team.

[Daldaen]

August 14th 2002 Patch Notes (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020814.html)

Removed the cap for items that granted bonus mana.

Since this wasn't included before.

[Jaxon]

Some members of FOH did some testing and verified the existence of a mana cap.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021023061609/www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2252

For a while now some friends of mine and I have theorized that there is a mana softcap - that is, a limit or "cap" on mana given from items. We all are pretty sure there is a cap of some sort. For a while now, Rombus has been saying it's around 5000, while others claim it's much lower. With the advent of percentages in the new UI, we're able to narrow down this cap a bit more. In fact this is really when it started bugging me, because while raid buffed it took me 13% mana to try to cast GSS (540 mana) with a manapool of 4520, it also took Sorceresa 13% to try and cast GSS as well with a mana pool of 4210. It seems to me that it should have shown a greater percentage to try and cast GSS for someone with a smaller mana pool. So I started to run some "tests". The mana numbers used here are from Magelo.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up I removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping me to 4220 or +1370 in items. I then put those items back on, and my mana bar stayed at 100%. My UI shows my mana bar percentage, so I can tell if it drops at all when +mana items are added. I removed 600 mana worth of items, dropping me to 3920, and my mana bar dropped to 92%.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up Sorceresa removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping her to 3910. She then put those items back on, and her mana bar dropped to 92%. Even adding 5 mana she saw it drop from 100% to 99%.

Bottom line? There seems to be a cap on how much mana items can give you. Neuro tinkered with this a bit, and found it to be exactly +1400 or 4250 total mana. Is this accurate? If not, what are we seeing there? And of what significance is this?




http://www.showeq.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1738.html

Here Ratt, a ShowEQ developer, criticizes Frozboz's testing methodology, but the criticism lies in the the degree of precision available by using the client for testing and the difference between client side and server side data.

Just to be clear, Ratt agrees there is a mana cap. His issue is with the 4250 number they came up with.
Yes, this was and is known by the general public. Verant stated this a long time ago, publically. Both on their message boards and also on all the news sites. I don't know how much more public you can get than this. It's not my fault you or others forgot this... I've never forgotten it and a lot of others never have forgotten it. It's been something very near and dear to me for quite a while as I tried to balance my character in mana vs hp.


Another poster named Neuro MT uses another method to pin down the exact number:

The client will display any mana amount under 100% as 99% (Or less). The client does not round up, so even a 1 mana change will register. Test it yourself if you don't believe me. Up until 1388, even a 1 mana increase in mana pool will drop your mana to 99% for one tick. Above 1388, even a 125 mana item will not budge your mana meter.

This cap, I believe, is a direct ratio of your total int-based mana. Someone told me that SEQ showed a 4164 total mana pool unbuffed, even when the pool should be higher. Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.


What Neuro is saying is that he has verified the client has a hard coded mana cap at +1388 in mana items. From there you have to assume one of two things:

i) The client code has good reason to arbitrarily limit +mana at 1388 (at Lv60) because that's what the coded limit on the servers is.

ii) For some reason best known to themselves the coders at Verant put a mana cap into the client but a different one on the server. It's well known that the client's mana numbers are inaccurate when presented with mana recharge or drain effects but this is not one of those cases. For it to work this way the code must deliberately cap mana differently on the client and the server.

I find the notion that the static mana caculation formula being identical on client and server to be the most reasonable hypothesis.

The client still resyncs with the server when you perform an action such as clicking jboots or on the tick. If the cap were only client-side, then putting on a large +mana item over the cap would drop to 97% after the tick or after you click jboots. Sadly, this does not happen. Thus, the cap is not only client side, it is server-side as well.


I think from this we can definitively conclude that there is +mana cap on items(and items alone, not +mana effects like GOB or KEI) of 1388.

[loramin]

This is a complete load of crap and I can point you to several bug threads that have pages of evidence for classic changes some of which have been ignored for years or worse down right shut down by managment after being proven a classic mechanic.The staff here use the "resembles classic" speech all the time to justify unclassic things like modified loot tables, dragon hp, dragon fear, DA agro mechanic, and the list goes on and on.

Wow, it's like I was able to predict exactly what you would say, and then counter it before you had even said it:

Now I can already hear you saying, "that's a ton of B.S. because ____ isn't classic". And you'd be right: Project 1999 is not complete yet. Until it is, the devs are going to keep working on it to make it as classic as possible, and they're not just going to ignore not-classic-thing A because they haven't yet fixed non-classic thing B.

[Daldaen]

Solid Classicquest going on in this thread.

[Rygar]

Thank you so much Jaxon, I had looked for that FoH post but was unsuccessful. Very technical testing going on there. Hope that can be a case closed on the mana cap.

We have basically 2 numbers that were thrown out: 4,126 and 4,164 for the cap (not including buffs). I admit 4,164 seems a bit more technical, yet 4,126 was busted out in the dev thread.

So at least we have a range narrowed down... anyone have better figures than those?

[Bellringer]

Thank you so much Jaxon, I had looked for that FoH post but was unsuccessful. Very technical testing going on there. Hope that can be a case closed on the mana cap.

We have basically 2 numbers that were thrown out: 4,126 and 4,164 for the cap (not including buffs). I admit 4,164 seems a bit more technical, yet 4,126 was busted out in the dev thread.

So at least we have a range narrowed down... anyone have better figures than those?

This is where you lose me. You somehow still want your 4126 number in the convo just because it was posted by a complete rando in a "dev thread" as opposed to much more reasonable evidence pointing towards 4164.

It's these sorts of things that will cause people to oppose you initially instead of looking at your information with an open mind.

PS. Some people will always oppose you due to the salt levels coursing through their veins.

[Daldaen]

I'd trust the ShowEQ forum since it pulls data from the client directly.

+1388 Mana cap is a fairly reasonable cap. That means for a character you're looking at 70 Mana per slot for all 20 of your worn slots (some of which do not have +70 options in this era). No HoT geared character is going to hit this cap. You need at least 14-15 NToV, Vulak, Dozekar, Tunare, AoW, City Leader, Veeshans Peak, etc. raid drops to hit it after the WIS/INT calculation fix.

This has me intrigued as to whether HP had a similar limitation... probably not seeing as HP calculations off stamina and level vary by class whereas Mana is the same. But still interesting something that was seemingly limitless was capped.

[Raev]

Nice stuff Jaxon.

I believe you get 12 mana per int/wis at 60. So it seems that a completely classic max would be: 200 * 12 + 55 + 1388 = 3843 mana. Ouch.

[Rygar]

I This is where you lose me. You somehow still want your 4126 number in the convo just because it was posted by a complete rando in a "dev thread" as opposed to much more reasonable evidence pointing towards 4164.

It's these sorts of things that will cause people to oppose you initially instead of looking at your information with an open mind.

PS. Some people will always oppose you due to the salt levels coursing through their veins.

My rationale is 4164 was player tested, the original dev page no longer works and we have a copied original post with player comments. I am assuming the 4126 could have been confirmed on the original page and reposted on the copy page.

I am adhmitting the 4164 sounds better, but i can't imagine someone just made up 4126 which is why i am still talking about it.

Hopefully that calms you down?

[Rygar]

Nice stuff Jaxon.

I believe you get 12 mana per int/wis at 60. So it seems that a completely classic max would be: 200 * 12 + 55 + 1388 = 3843 mana. Ouch.

Where is that formula coming from? My math was coming out different on the base. Cutting out 600 - 800 mana from someone's pool would be pretty nuts and game changing.

[Daldaen]

Nice stuff Jaxon.

I believe you get 12 mana per int/wis at 60. So it seems that a completely classic max would be: 200 * 12 + 55 + 1388 = 3843 mana. Ouch.

It's interesting...

Assuming 12 mana per wisdom 1-200 and 1 mana per wisdom 201-205, your calculations are correct.

But the calculations in the quotes earlier are using the Luclin formula. They are using 4164 max total Mana, with 1388 coming from raw Mana gear leaving a WIS/INT Mana value of 2776.

I thought the Luclin era calculations were 12 per Wisdom 1-200 and 6 Mana per 201-255. This gives you a value of 2730 mana, off by 46 mana? To get a 2776 value you'd need the post 200-wisdom mana value to be about 6.8 per.

Also interesting, the Al'Kabor client had the WIS/INT Mana value of a level 60 at 2775. Which we can attribute to some rounding error somewhere. But how we get to the value is what confuses me.

Perhaps the actual Luclin calculation is 12.5mana/wisdom 0-200 and 5 mana/wisdom 201-255. This lands you at 2775 exactly.

[Rygar]

You know, re-reading this...

Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.

It seems to me that this won't affect only end-gamers, but the cap being a percentage of your mana pool will affect twinking. This could also have big impacts on Red where people de-level to grief.

This probably complicates things for the dev to incorporate a 50% of your pool cap if they can't get the pool to scale properly.

I am curious too Daldaen if HP had an affect like this (relative cap to total HP). Wonder if there are any posts about people not seeing expected gains from equipping +55 HP rings at level 1? Too tired to start that search.

[Daldaen]

Because HP was actually displayed in the UI during classic I'm sure that would've been mentioned somewhere. Especially if it is a function of your base and level dependent.

The Mana evidence has be convinced it was capped but I'd need to see a lot more for HP because everyone could see their HP value exactly.

[Raev]

The +mana cap being 50% of the int/wis total seems extremely logical. But this makes it even worse for P99ers if we are using the classic 12/1. That would give us ((12 * 200) + 55) * 5 = 1228 mana in +items and 3682 max in classic. http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Doabarrelroll by my math has +1070 mana (and no Garizcor earring), so you'd only need maybe 4 raid loots to hit the cap.

Also I have to say Rygar has taken the bug troll to an epic level.

[Daldaen]

The +mana cap being 50% of the int/wis total seems extremely logical. But this makes it even worse for P99ers if we are using the classic 12/1. That would give us ((12 * 200) + 55) * 5 = 1228 mana in +items and 3682 max in classic. http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Doabarrelroll by my math has +1070 mana (and no Garizcor earring), so you'd only need maybe 4 raid loots to hit the cap.

Also I have to say Rygar has taken the bug troll to an epic level.

But apparently, shits classic...

Man Luclin starting to look real good right now. Velious was a dumpsterfire with Mana caps and awful itemization.

[Rygar]

So you're saying folks should have been happy I said 4,200 originally..?

In the 201+ WIS/INT thread I just posted this link:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/8gHxdFJrNko/xNfzOI5ddykJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest

12/17/2001 when new formulas were posted:

<je...@spam.sux.pobox.com> wrote:
Hi, Casters Realm has put up two new mana calculators (wis and int).
Anyone have any idea what the new formulas are? I haven't noticed any real changes in any of my characters' mana pools, so was wondering just what has changed? I know they were proposing that int/wis could go over 200 now with more than minimal benefit (more than one mana per wis/int point over 200) but am not certain they implemented that. Any information and the current formulas would be appreciated.
>
I haven't tested it, but I've heard it's the same as it was (10 per point at
level 50) plus 7 per point above 200 int/wis. I believe the 10 per goes up
to 12 or 13 per at level 60, but not sure what it actually increases to.

seems right i can get almost 2 extra chloroblasts of with 251 mana so 7
points per after 200 seems right

Final quote mentions with '251 mana' but I think they mean 251 WIS and they are gaining nearly an extra 300 mana (Chloroplast looks to cost 175 mana). 251 - 200 = 51 * 7 = +357 mana - 51 mana from old 201+ formula = +306 mana after change (almost 2 extra chloroblasts).

This seems to imply the mana calculation didn't just round and keep mana pools the same, but increased mana pools. What they were before I guess is something that needs to be determined.

If mana pools are really supposed to be this low... holy crap. Even solo artist challenges are going to get rough, nevermind grouping, low man encounters, long fights like AoW...

I may have made many enemies this day.

[Bellringer]

Confused of why the 4164 number is being overlooked. It appears your assumptions of classic mana per wis/int above and/or below 200 are flawed.

[smitho1984]

I may have made many enemies this day.

I will eat your first born.

[Rygar]

Confused of why the 4164 number is being overlooked. It appears your assumptions of classic mana per wis/int above and/or below 200 are flawed.

I believe they are saying the 4,164 was calculated and tested during Luclin which actually used a formula that increased your mana pool. If using the supposed velious calculation and maintaining that mana cap on items was a 50% cap of your wis/int, then your pool would be lower as well as the cap on items.

Haven't looked into how rock solid that is, or if something is amiss.

[Daldaen]

Confused of why the 4164 number is being overlooked. It appears your assumptions of classic mana per wis/int above and/or below 200 are flawed.

Luclin Day Patch (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011204.html)

Increased the amount of mana given by high Intelligence and Wisdom scores, as well as that granted by items and spells.

This is why. That 4164 mana value, which is the most accurately described number so far, is pulled from a post during late Luclin.

Meaning it occurred 8 months after the above patch which changed the calculation of 200-255 WIS/INT to Mana. The classic value seems to have been 1 Mana per 1 WIS/INT. The Luclin one 6 sticks in my mind but 5 fits the numbers more easily. This means the level 60 calculation is:

Classic = 12 Mana per WIS 0-200, 1 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683.

Luclin = 12.5 Mana per WIS 0-200, 5 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2775
Max +Mana = 1388
Total Max Worn Mana = 4163 (4164... rounding error probably)

[Daldaen]

Is there any evidence to what the cap was? Didn't the introduction of AAs also alter people's mana pool? Was that taken into account with the devs comments?

The numbers I've seen seem to just be "these numbers would have made sense" instead of "this for sure was the case".

No innate AAs introduced in Luclin modify your stat cap, or the Mana pool.

Being sure about a hidden value you cannot see until GoD launches is sort of tough. The experiments and ShowEQ data mined from the era is the best we've got. It just needs to be reverse engineered backwards from that value to the value pre-Luclin when the post 201 WIS/INT calculation was changed.

Interesting again, I was looking through some old posts from Al'Kabor, there was a known 500 mana cap provided from spells. Which meant a wizard with the AA Familiar (300) and Voice of Quellious (275), only actually gained an additional 500 mana instead of 575. It seems they put many hidden caps on statistics that many classes couldn't even reach until after these caps were removed.

[Jaxon]

Another interesting point of agreement is in the formula that EQemu uses to calculate your base mana pool. That formula is at https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1580147#post1580147

if((( Wis - 199 ) / 2) > 0)
MindLesserFactor = ( Wis - 199 ) / 2;
else
MindLesserFactor = 0;

MindFactor = Wis - MindLesserFactor;

if(Wis > 100)
max_m = (((5 * (MindFactor + 20)) / 2) * 3 * GetLevel() / 40);
else
max_m = (((5 * (MindFactor + 200)) / 2) * 3 * GetLevel() / 100);

These numbers are integers, so you truncate the decimals after each division operation.

If you want to calculate the base mana pool of a level 60 character with 255 WIS, it works out like this:

MindLesserFactor = (255 - 199) / 2 = 28
MindFactor = 255 - 28 = 227
max_m = 5 * (227 + 20) / 2 = 617 (617.5 truncated)
617 * 3 = 1851
1851 * 60 = 111060
111060 / 40 = 2776 (2776.5 truncated)



If you take 4164, which is the maximum mana seen in ShowEQ, and subtract 1388 from that, you end up with 2776 mana. The fact that these two numbers agree exactly lends support to the idea that the base mana formula in the emulator is the same base mana formula that was used during Luclin.

[Rygar]

Damn Jaxon, amazing find and corroboration! Is there a showEQ crawl from velious era that would validate Daldaen's math?

If not, what was the max mana shown in those crawls? Could reverse engineer a formula from that.

Here was his values:
Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683

[Rygar]

For what it is worth I saw this post about a slightly alternate formula for mana that was posted 3 months before Luclin, could run it by the ShowEQ results from Velious to see if the cap would match:

Mana Calculator: (https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/Mana$20calculator$20/alt.games.everquest/Ow-stTNpkgQ)
To nit pick a little, the formula is really

((WIS/5)+2) x Level = base mana + mana from items = total mana

where wis is less than 200, and

42 * level + (wis-200) = base mana + mana from items = total mana

((Same, using INT for int casters))

Want to see something funny, loot your corpse at low levels with a lot of +mana gear on. Suddenly your mana bar drops to half without ever casting a spell!

Not sure where that +2 came from, but could see if the ShowEQ results match up. For 255 wis/int @ Lvl 60:
(((200/5)+2) * 60) + (255-200) = 2,575 base mana
2,575 / 2 = 1,287 (rounded down) +mana item cap
Max mana = 3,862 mana (not including buffs).

That is roughly 200 more mana from Daldaen's calculations. Again no clue on the authenticity.

Interesting to read the last comment about going to 50% mana from looting a bunch of +mana items at low levels, one would expect 66%... Would assume they also looted +wis/int gear too, but perhaps the mana cap scaled differently as you leveled? We may never know.

[Rygar]

If you take 4164, which is the maximum mana seen in ShowEQ

Quick question... i know not how ShowEQ works, but reflecting on this, why wouldn't the number be higher in the data to account for buffs? Were buffs not seen by ShowEQ?

If they were, then that would stand to reason that the mana cap didn't just apply to items, but to items and buffs... Ouch.

Edit: i saw in the FoH thread that they found an unbuffed 4164, maybe that is what you were referring to.

[Rygar]

Now that I think about this subject more I now see why the dev team had reason to buff our current raid content (mob hp/dmg ect) beyond live to account for inflated mana pools and other issues. Would make sense, need a response from dev.

I wonder if they could just adjust the mana cost of spells instead, would make more sense so it applies to group / solo content. Could have some issues of scale though, and not sure if there are client issues.

I am starting to develop a tinfoil hat idea that devs may have been aware of this!

[Daldaen]

Other than Sleepers Tomb Warders and VP Dragon AEs, which were bug reported here (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2147593&postcount=13) and here (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215005&highlight=Veeshan), what other mobs are harder on P99 than they should be?

I agree that NToV Flurry spots aren't classic, but I don't think any NToV, Kael or other Velious bosses have incorrect DI/DBs or HP values at this point. I'm aware Vyemm originally had some unclassic stats but that has since been revamped.

[Raev]

[QUOTE=Daldaen;2612011]what other mobs are harder on P99 than they should be?

I would say just about everything, because their ATK values are tuned vs the softcap rather than a 289 AC hardcap. With true classic mechanics, all of that NTOV gear should be nearly worthless for warriors (~10% HP) rather than the +400 AC or whatever it grants now.

What we really need is about 10 A/A guys to start developing some custom content!

[Daldaen]

Great classic quest going on in this thread.

[Rygar]

Found some additional correlating evidence that the +mana item cap SHOULD scale with level. The below interview was from Gordon:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822133457/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc96.shtml

More on +Mana Topic
Well I was able to track down some additional information that I don't mind distributing. The benefit of +mana items is scaled to reduce the impact of twinking in certain circumstances. I can't give you the formula, but I can say that if you load up your level 1 guy with +300 in mana items, he doesn't have 300 more mana.
The benefit that you can receive from a +mana item is based upon your total natural mana.

There is a broken link to the original topic, but his reply is pretty definitive.

[Rygar]

Additional confirmation found, in case all this wasn't enough:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822123451/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc87.shtml


[Quote from original post: Since learning that +mana items are also subject to the level restriction and have a reduced effect at lower levels]
Actually that's not entirely accurate. You can only raise your mana with +mana items based upon the total base mana that you have. For instance, if someone has only 50 mana, and they don a +50 mana item, they do not have 100 mana. This isn't a function of the level, but of total mana. We won't let someone double their mana supply with +mana items

[Daldaen]

I can't wait to hear fixed pending update in this thread. It will reach ultimate immersion values when Mana is limited according to your base mana value.

[Rygar]

Friendly bump. I realize a proper mana formula / cap can be a re-tuning nightmare as it affects everyone in game (and all content). Still would love to see it!

[Daldaen]

What an immersive change this would be.

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Erati]

Bump

Please remove the ability for this man to bump bug reports

[Daldaen]

Bump. If we are never getting Luclin this is a crucial bug fix for the balance of the server. However if Luclin is in the works probably don’t need to worry about it since Luclin fixes it.

[Raev]

Rather than bumping this thread, you should make a new one that is better organized. Most of the evidence is buried deep in the thread. I think the most likely conclusion is that +mana items were capped at 1/2 of your total mana pool based on Jaxon's posts, which cuts P99ers down to 3700 max or so.

I think in the end this would be a positive change for the server. With this, the 289 item ac hard cap, and diminished resist returns over 200 (based on what I saw in the VP AE thread, but it needs way more research) players will no longer be able to go god-mode with TOV gear. The NPCs can then be tuned down to true classic ATK/AC/cooldown/resist mod values. The result will be both a much more classic server - P99 has tremendously accurate quests and such, but the mechanics have never been that close - and also, I would hope, a less competitive one where getting 15 slots of Velious Raid gear isn't so important.

[Rygar]

Rather than bumping this thread, you should make a new one that is better organized. Most of the evidence is buried deep in the thread. I think the most likely conclusion is that +mana items were capped at 1/2 of your total mana pool based on Jaxon's posts, which cuts P99ers down to 3700 max or so.

I think in the end this would be a positive change for the server. With this, the 289 item ac hard cap, and diminished resist returns over 200 (based on what I saw in the VP AE thread, but it needs way more research) players will no longer be able to go god-mode with TOV gear. The NPCs can then be tuned down to true classic ATK/AC/cooldown/resist mod values. The result will be both a much more classic server - P99 has tremendously accurate quests and such, but the mechanics have never been that close - and also, I would hope, a less competitive one where getting 15 slots of Velious Raid gear isn't so important.

Excellent point Raev about consolidating, it is definitely a lot to read through and much of the evidence was uncovered as the thread moved along. Maybe I'll work up a new post tonight.

I do agree with you that adjusting this cap, ac values, and resists would indeed change the dynamics of the server and hopefully create more of a 'relive the nostalgia' mentality amongst the player base and make BiS profiles just marginally better than HoT gear.

[Rygar]

Below is a summary of this thread, I'll PM a mod to modify the original post and change the title! Let me know what you think:

Summary of +Mana Cap:

The +mana cap for P99 was not main stream knowledge until after Luclin hit and the percentage of mana you had was displayed. Afterwards, a post was made from a high end raider revealing his testing methods to determine a cap was indeed in place. At which point Devs faced some revolt from the masses and did some damage control.

Here is Rich Waters' explanation of the cap:
8/9/2002:
http://rift.zam.com/story.html?story=1083
Hi, The mana cap has been a big topic lately, so I'd like to take a minute to address it. Mana caps have been in EverQuest since the game was released. They haven't been changed, made more restrictive, or added at a later date in order to keep casters down. The mana cap as it is now has been there since you created your character, and only recently become a topic of concern for players. Most things in EverQuest have a point of diminishing returns - a point where adding more of a resource yields little or no improvement. This is most obvious in your basic stats, where you can easily see that after your strength score hits 255 it does you no good to put on more strength enhancing gear. These kinds of caps aren't intended to cause you distress, and in many ways they can help support a well balanced game system. While we have an appreciation for the benefits that stat caps can bring to a system, we're also willing to look at things like this with an objective eye. The mana cap on worn items has been in since release, and hasn't come up before as an issue that players felt overly limited by. With all the attention focused on the cap in recent days, the dev team looked it over and we agree - there's no reason to place an artificial cap on mana enhancing items. On test server now, we've changed the rule so that players get full value from all mana increasing worn items. We expect this will go live with the next patch. Thanks for bringing your concerns to our attention, ____________________________ Rich Waters Lead Designer, EverQuest Sony Online Entertainment -------------------------------------------

This change just affects + Mana items. We didn't change the way a players mana is calculated from intelligence or wisdom, and we're happy with how that part of the system works. - Rich

Shortly afterwards that patch hit on 8/14/2002:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020814.html
Removed the cap for items that granted bonus mana.

So where was the player test that revealed this feature? Much love to Jaxon of P99 that uncovered those threads, I'll list them here as he posted, long read so I'll use spoiler tags:

Some members of FOH did some testing and verified the existence of a mana cap.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021023...?threadid=2252

Originally Posted by Frozboz
For a while now some friends of mine and I have theorized that there is a mana softcap - that is, a limit or "cap" on mana given from items. We all are pretty sure there is a cap of some sort. For a while now, Rombus has been saying it's around 5000, while others claim it's much lower. With the advent of percentages in the new UI, we're able to narrow down this cap a bit more. In fact this is really when it started bugging me, because while raid buffed it took me 13% mana to try to cast GSS (540 mana) with a manapool of 4520, it also took Sorceresa 13% to try and cast GSS as well with a mana pool of 4210. It seems to me that it should have shown a greater percentage to try and cast GSS for someone with a smaller mana pool. So I started to run some "tests". The mana numbers used here are from Magelo.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up I removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping me to 4220 or +1370 in items. I then put those items back on, and my mana bar stayed at 100%. My UI shows my mana bar percentage, so I can tell if it drops at all when +mana items are added. I removed 600 mana worth of items, dropping me to 3920, and my mana bar dropped to 92%.

Full mana, zero buffs, standing up Sorceresa removed 300 mana worth of items, dropping her to 3910. She then put those items back on, and her mana bar dropped to 92%. Even adding 5 mana she saw it drop from 100% to 99%.

Bottom line? There seems to be a cap on how much mana items can give you. Neuro tinkered with this a bit, and found it to be exactly +1400 or 4250 total mana. Is this accurate? If not, what are we seeing there? And of what significance is this?


http://www.showeq.net/forums/archive...hp/t-1738.html

Here Ratt, a ShowEQ developer, criticizes Frozboz's testing methodology, but the criticism lies in the the degree of precision available by using the client for testing and the difference between client side and server side data.

Just to be clear, Ratt agrees there is a mana cap. His issue is with the 4250 number they came up with.
Originally Posted by Ratt
Yes, this was and is known by the general public. Verant stated this a long time ago, publically. Both on their message boards and also on all the news sites. I don't know how much more public you can get than this. It's not my fault you or others forgot this... I've never forgotten it and a lot of others never have forgotten it. It's been something very near and dear to me for quite a while as I tried to balance my character in mana vs hp.

Another poster named Neuro MT uses another method to pin down the exact number:

Originally Posted by Neuro MT
The client will display any mana amount under 100% as 99% (Or less). The client does not round up, so even a 1 mana change will register. Test it yourself if you don't believe me. Up until 1388, even a 1 mana increase in mana pool will drop your mana to 99% for one tick. Above 1388, even a 125 mana item will not budge your mana meter.

This cap, I believe, is a direct ratio of your total int-based mana. Someone told me that SEQ showed a 4164 total mana pool unbuffed, even when the pool should be higher. Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.

Originally Posted by throx
What Neuro is saying is that he has verified the client has a hard coded mana cap at +1388 in mana items. From there you have to assume one of two things:

i) The client code has good reason to arbitrarily limit +mana at 1388 (at Lv60) because that's what the coded limit on the servers is.

ii) For some reason best known to themselves the coders at Verant put a mana cap into the client but a different one on the server. It's well known that the client's mana numbers are inaccurate when presented with mana recharge or drain effects but this is not one of those cases. For it to work this way the code must deliberately cap mana differently on the client and the server.

I find the notion that the static mana caculation formula being identical on client and server to be the most reasonable hypothesis.

Originally Posted by Neuro MT
The client still resyncs with the server when you perform an action such as clicking jboots or on the tick. If the cap were only client-side, then putting on a large +mana item over the cap would drop to 97% after the tick or after you click jboots. Sadly, this does not happen. Thus, the cap is not only client side, it is server-side as well.
I think from this we can definitively conclude that there is +mana cap on items(and items alone, not +mana effects like GOB or KEI) of 1388.


Thanks Jaxon!! So we gather from that thread, that during that Luclin era the effective cap on your mana pool was 4,164. I do want to touch base quickly on the client vs. server formula for mana. It would appear that the formula for this was server side limitation (much like we find from Cinda's Charismatic Carillon thread which showed there was a server side cap on the faction for this spell regardless of the SPDAT file). Mana was purposely not shown in the client to keep it 'mysterious' per the original dev team, with client's being cracked and analyzed I'm not surprised they would keep the cap formula server side.

Back to Jaxon's post, there was an interesting blurb I picked up on that thread:
Since 4164 divided evenly into 3, AND the resulting divisor was '1388' I concluded that not only was the 4164 figure accurate, but the 'cap' was actually a function of your total mana pool, basically, 50% of your mana pool is the cap on +mana items. You say this 'limit' was known for a long time, well, not by the general public. I knew there was a cap on +mana under level 20 or so, but I had never heard of any limitation above lvl 20.

So the cap is not a hard cap on 'total mana', but it should be reflective of your base mana pool. Is there other evidence to back this up? Yes, there is, in classic era before many caught on about the +mana cap:
4/5/2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822133457/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc96.shtml
More on +Mana Topic
Well I was able to track down some additional information that I don't mind distributing. The benefit of +mana items is scaled to reduce the impact of twinking in certain circumstances. I can't give you the formula, but I can say that if you load up your level 1 guy with +300 in mana items, he doesn't have 300 more mana.
The benefit that you can receive from a +mana item is based upon your total natural mana.

5/4/2000:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822123451/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc87.shtml
You can only raise your mana with +mana items based upon the total base mana that you have. For instance, if someone has only 50 mana, and they don a +50 mana item, they do not have 100 mana. This isn't a function of the level, but of total mana. We won't let someone double their mana supply with +mana items.

So there we've established that this +mana cap is a function of your base mana, regardless of level. Exact formula? Who knows, but best evidence is a straight 50% cap of your base mana for worn +mana items (buffs can exceed this).

Summary of Mana Formula changes:
So... it may seem like P99 should have an effective max cap on your mana of 4164, right? WRONG!

As Raev and Daldaen had pointed out, it would appear that P99 is using a Luclin formula for calculating mana... Daldaen summed it up nicely below:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011204.html
12/4/2001 (Luclin launches)
Increased the amount of mana given by high Intelligence and Wisdom scores, as well as that granted by items and spells.

That 4164 mana value, which is the most accurately described number so far, is pulled from a post during late Luclin.

Meaning it occurred 8 months after the above patch which changed the calculation of 200-255 WIS/INT to Mana. The classic value seems to have been 1 Mana per 1 WIS/INT. The Luclin one 6 sticks in my mind but 5 fits the numbers more easily. This means the level 60 calculation is:

Classic = 12 Mana per WIS 0-200, 1 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2455
Max +Mana = 1228
Total Max Worn Mana = 3683.

Luclin = 12.5 Mana per WIS 0-200, 5 Mana per WIS 201-255.
Max WIS based Mana = 2775
Max +Mana = 1388
Total Max Worn Mana = 4163 (4164... rounding error probably)

---------------

I did notice through some postings that there were 'alternate' classic formulas posted, so not sure which is the true formula (a little birdie told me Haynar knows...).

My post listing those values is here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2611606&postcount=66

So possible 3,862 would be the max unbuffed mana pool obtained on P99, or perhaps 3,683 per Daldaen.

Lastly, Jaxon did find that the showEQ formula obtaining those numbers were the Luclin era calculation, and not the classic mana formula, his post on that summary is here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2611147&postcount=64

Conclusion:

I find this all to be very compelling evidence for a +mana cap and a mana formula revision, major changes require significant evidence and I feel that has been delivered here.

It may certainly explain a lot how testing fights against Tunare / AoW in Velious Beta was making easier fights than expected. It would seem there was a lot more mana available for CHeal chains, spot heals, twitches, etc.

I understand re-balancing that content with these formulas may be difficult and time consuming, but I say go ahead and implement! Most P99ers have already trivialized the encounters, this will just make them more of a challenge until the ATK values, etc can be dialed in. It may also encourage grouping with more members as all players will be taking a hit to their mana pool.

Thank you for your consideration! #Classic

[Erati]

Even if everyone agrees Mana was capped originally, classic gear is so basic that I truly don't understand this crusade to nerf the top 5% players here by suggesting the Devs to gut and re-do how mana is calculated/stored through items.

So let me break this down for you on why this seems a bit overreaching in terms of a 'wishlist' change here: My druid who probably has the highest mana pool of all hierophants is sitting around 4,380 mana, and using Dald's estimate of 3,683 would represent a 16% nerf to my main's mana pool. If we whack off 350 mana from my druids total which would be closer to the avg lvl 60 raider and then calculate again, Dald's figure ( again the most conservative ) would represent a 9% nerf. Basically this nerf would only be felt by anyone who has above 4k mana unbuffed and even then you have to ascend to the top 5% of mana pools for it to actually be somewhat significant and make much of a difference as we are basically talking about one less 300 mana-ish spell for the average raiding player.

For a ton of backend work on how the Titanium client interacts with the server in terms of every single player's mana pool calculation from meditating to spell casting, you are looking at basically a less than 10% nerf to the general raiding public. This is a neat idea if the Green server ever becomes a thing as then you would see this actually affect twinking significantly however on the 10 year old blue server, this effort seems a bit misplaced considering how many longstanding bugs that are seemingly easier to correct are still on the table. ( LoH bug going on 9+ years, White Dragon helm bug 2+ year, Paladin Defense/Disc etc etc etc )

In conclusion, Mana was always mysterious and hard to solve how it was calculated, my classic fix here would be to remove the client mana # display then people can just blissfully speculate and wonder how much they truely have while others won't be so focused on trying to remove 1 additional 300 mana spell cast from the general raiding public.

[Rygar]

Some changes are just going to affect some people more than others, no way around that. It affects every single caster really, at all levels, not just the elite raiders. Not a reason to keep out a change.

I realize there is a desire to "be the best geared druid with highest mana pool", just wasnt classic in terms of mana pool. I'm sorry that this would anger you, i get no joy from that.

I don't know how hard this would be to implement, perhaps it is an easy fix, perhaps difficult. Maybe nilbog wants to leave as is to account for time locked server? I don't know.

This isn't a crusade against raiders, just posting some facts that were found which fit the stated mission of this project.

[Erati]

Some changes are just going to affect some people more than others, no way around that. It affects every single caster really, at all levels, not just the elite raiders. Not a reason to keep out a change.

I realize there is a desire to "be the best geared druid with highest mana pool", just wasnt classic in terms of mana pool. I'm sorry that this would anger you, i get no joy from that.

I don't know how hard this would be to implement, perhaps it is an easy fix, perhaps difficult. Maybe nilbog wants to leave as is to account for time locked server? I don't know.

This isn't a crusade against raiders, just posting some facts that were found which fit the stated mission of this project.

You posted facts many times over and now reposted the same facts. Please wait to allow for Devs to comment or only post to add some new evidence.

In my experience, silence from Devs on large client issues usually means its a rather complex change to implement where some bug reports get “fixed pending update” the same day as posted. This threads information isnt suddenly a revelation by re organizing the already posted material, as Ive yet to know a bug report “thrown out” bc the thread became unorganized. Thats why I said you’re on a crusade, glaring facts in front of you that you are chosing to ignore just so you can toot your horn about implementing this change. Honestly the best fix for a classic mana bar experience is what I suggested which is a practical one, remove the mana amount display on UIs and then no one will know how much mana they get from anything. This way players items provide their listed stats and the community will be in constant debate about what gear choices are better bc the mana calculation would be a secret bc no total shown.

[Rygar]

Wow Erati, you are raging sooo hard it is cringe worthy. This is NOT rants and flames my man, dial it down.

I was never 'reposting the facts over and over again'. I've bumped the thread as it went through inception to add new findings and occasional bump for awareness, but I've been by no means tooting my own horn and launching a crusade, I have plenty of other bug reports that are neutral to raiders or beneficial. It's just something I like to do.

Raev made a good point that a lot of this evidence is spread out and it isn't as concise so suggested a summary, I thought that was warranted and did so. Even if not for devs but for new players to digest the information and form their opinion on the matter.

Who is to really say why dev's choose to fix what they fix, I'm assuming some low hanging fruit which is easy to update that won't have the potential to break the world gives a sense of accomplishment and is a low-risk endeavor. Playing with mana calculation probably touches a whole bunch of routines and seems higher-risk, and who knows what client issues are in place.

To recap: I summarized thread in a neat little bow. You got angry by that. Reflect on that a bit.

[Jimjam]

It was a great consolidated post, making the subject much easier to understand.

One of the things I love about Everquest classic is the diminishing returns and caps on most stats and gear. Not that my opinion counts for anything here; this is a classic emulation, not 'what people like most' server.

[Baler]

Wow Erati, you are raging sooo hard it is cringe worthy. This is NOT rants and flames my man, dial it down.

You're messing with people who spend too much time playing a game from 1999. I'm just saying you may be screwing with mentally unstable people by pursuing some of these classic fixes.
Seeing as how dudes are doxing people, ddosing and other nonsense. Tow the line. Simply not a threat but a friendly recommendation. Or play it where it lies. *shrugs* Werid people on the internet dude.

You can white knight it but is it worth the risk? Sometimes I even have to put forum quest down and lay low.

[Rygar]

You're messing with people who spend too much time playing a game from 1999. I'm just saying you may be screwing with mentally unstable people by pursuing some of these classic fixes.
Seeing as how dudes are doxing people, ddosing and other nonsense. Tow the line. Simply not a threat but a friendly recommendation. Or play it where it lies. *shrugs* Werid people on the internet dude.

You can white knight it but is it worth the risk? Sometimes I even have to put forum quest down and lay low.

Baler, you have said you hope my wife divorces me and gets the kids... All over p99 bug reports. You are the weird Internet person.

[Baler]

Baler, you have said you hope my wife divorces me and gets the kids... All over p99 bug reports. You are the weird Internet person.

well there you go. See weirdos on the net be wildin. \:o/ Also that's slightly taken out of context. Should prob put the source for the whole story.

[Raev]

I NEED MANA!

Project 1999 just doesn't get much development time any more. One of the most remarkable things about TAKP is watching the developers fixing things every week while still working on a new expansion. So yeah, fixing knight defense, releasing Chardok, the 2H upgrades, etc all seem like higher priorities for me. And I realize that no one likes to get nerfed after putting a lot of time and effort into something.

But I think if you step back and look at the big picture objectively, implementing classic caps on AC, mana, and resists has a lot of positive side effects: better balance between players and NPCs, better balance between raiders and non-raiders, a generally more classic server, and hopefully a more relaxed attitude. I'm totally for competitors and against handout queens, but tracking and late night batphoning to acquire pixels on an emulated server is a pretty pointless mode of competition. MMORPGs in general are probably not great for spiritual development but P99 has taken it to a new level.

I think if you channel that competitive energy into something more real, like say MMA or politics, you might find it more rewarding fairly quickly.

[Nikkanu]

Basically this nerf would only be felt by anyone who has above 4k mana unbuffed and even then you have to ascend to the top 5% of mana pools for it to actually be somewhat significant and make much of a difference as we are basically talking about one less 300 mana-ish spell for the average raiding player.

Wow, so my cleric is in the top 5% of mana pools on the server? :p

[smitho1984]

Wow, so my cleric is in the top 5% of mana pools on the server? :p

Like you didn't know. I'm stuck at 4410m and probably won't move any higher.

[aaezil]

Lol at the “best geared druid” having an autism attack over talks of nerfs

[Nikkanu]

Like you didn't know. I'm stuck at 4410m and probably won't move any higher.

Yeah, I'm not going any higher either. My Cleric is an alt now. Not really any point going past 4k mana as a cleric since by the time you go OOM most all the other clerics are already have been OOM for awhile and you're probably going to wipe anyways.

[Daldaen]

Will this change be in place for Green’s launch?

It’s pretty important to have correct mana calculations for gearing Casters on a server like this.

[Daldaen]

Very important code change to be in place on Green so that people may experience classic gearing strategies.

[Daldaen]

This is definitely one of the most important bug threads waiting to be fixed prior to Green launch. It greatly impacts how players choose gear when playing a caster.

[Daldaen]

Prior to the Test of Tactics this is a critical bug fix.

Otherwise we will be having Casters enter a competitive PvP competition with excesses of 800-1000 additional mana that they should not have under classic calculations.

[Daldaen]

Bumping this up. Hopefully it can make it in prior to Green launch so people know what items to pick at the top end.

[Daldaen]

Bump this is a crucial fix prior to Green launch.

[Glasken]

Bumping this up for a potential fix before green launch.

[Daldaen]

Bump for a fix prior to Green launch hopefully in the mana pool formula.

[Glasken]

.

[Daldaen]

Bump. Hoping this can get looked at prior to Green launch. Probably won’t matter for a few months but once twinking alts happens it’s a factor and come Velious its a factor on level 60 characters.

[Daldaen]

Bump

[Daldaen]

Bump

[mycoolrausch]

Bump. Hoping this can get looked at prior to Green launch. Probably won’t matter for a few months but once twinking alts happens it’s a factor and come Velious its a factor on level 60 characters.

If there's one thing velious wizards need it's a nerf.

good find OP

[Daldaen]

Bump. This is good classicquest that needs to get looked at fixing.

[Daldaen]

New year new bump. One day maybe the mana value for casters will be made classic.

[mycoolrausch]

New year new bump. One day maybe the mana value for casters will be made classic.

wizards doing 13k to aow instead of 11k, while rogues and monks do 30k. nerf wizards asap! ^ this guy

[Rygar]

Would be sweet if updated for green 2.0, even if blue is chosen not to use this classic mechanic

[Rygar]

Some great proof here of the mana cap scaling at low levels. Some people post some bogus formulas claiming 6k max mana at 60 but easily was debunked.

Some intriguing reading:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010504213832/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/000565.html
I know must of you will not believe this. But I am almost 100% sure there is a mana cap. I added 190 mana from items alone to a twink mage I made. My lvl 1 nuke spell only cost 7 mana. So I should be able to cast well over 20 just with my gear alone, not counting my mana I had already. Well I couldn't cast anywhere near 20. More like 8 or 9. Does anyone know when I get my mana that my items say I have? And please spare me of your disbeleifs on this subject unless you go test it out(then I would like to hear it).

Mana is capped (or maybe artificially limited is a better phrase) at low levels. NOt sure when the cap lifts but it's there.
I created a Iksar Necro to cast Invis Undead on my Wizard once (so my wizard could get down to the jester in Kurn's). Invis undead is a lvl 1 necro spell that cost 40 mana - I never found a way to cast it at level 1, you just can't have that much mana at lvl 1.

I put the basic gold/plat Jade (mana/hp) jewelry on him but it didn't help. I put my Tolamupj's Robe and Shrouded Viel on him and he still coudn't cast it. That's about +200 mana worth gear total. So I leveled him up to level 2. Even with the +70 mana worth of jewelry I still had to give him the +30 mana face piece before he could cast a 40 mana spell on my wizard.

[Rygar]

Another interesting find.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010504215940/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum4/HTML/000363.html
OK. +mana items do NOT give the full mana that they say they do. I have tested this and determined that they give a percentage based on your INT / WIS whichever is used for your class to generate mana. If you have a moonstone ring that gives +30 mana and you give to a human wizard with 100 INT, the ring will give him exactly 15 extra mana. In order to get the full mana you must have your INT maxxed at 200 (WIS if you are a priest class) Take your INT divided by 2. That is the percentage of the mana from the +mana item that you will actually recieve from it.
While Abashi once stated that +mana and +hp items give the full amount indicated, my own tests, and the tests of some friends would indicate that Abashi's statement was mis-informed as pertaining to +mana items (his statement was accurate for +hp items).

I think that is interesting as in my last post a level 2 necro put on a +70 mana item and couldn't cast a 40 mana spell, but could once he equipped an additional +30 mana item.

Leads me to believe there is some truth to the above where the +mana is both level based and potentially related to your INT/WIS current standing.

[1corinthians13]

Nice find Rygar. This is interesting. Wouldn't open sourcing Project 1999 make it easier for us to find these sort of non-classic bugs and send in patches for review?

[Rygar]

Certain open sourcing info may be abused, such as analyzing for dupe effects and such. There are benefits as well for sure, but I foresee p99 neckbeard abuse.

But back to issue at hand: classic mana formulas would be dope

[Rygar]

Just cruising the archives, found a 2/14/2001 post talking about how casters can get capped on +mana gear, making a differentiation from +INT/WIS. Is a rant on how they should add casting haste or something as further gear simply doesn't increase their total mana once capped.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010223213237/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/057442-4.html
What I don't understand, is why VI keeps refusing to give casters some form of 'haste' (for lack of a better term).
We have an INT cap, a +mana cap, so why are we continually getting items that add +int and +mana? So I can have a change of clothes that does the same thing but with the stats switched around? Where is my uber gear, that makes me a BETTER CASTER? No such thing exists. I still cast the same, I still get resisted the same, I still have max mana...I never become a BETTER CASTER. I just have a few hundred extra mana, maybe. I get to cast one more (resisted) spell. Or twitch a cleric one more time. That's the BEST I can hope for out of any new gear. Then you hit the cap on your mana...and there are no improvements from then on, ever.

What would be SO imbalancing about getting BETTER at casting your spells as you increase in levels? Isn't it...*gasp* logical that you would?

I just don't understand. What would be the problem? The ONLY difference in me naked and me with my gear is my mana pool. And my mana pool is still too small...if I even have anything to do besides feed mana to the cleric.

I just want to be useful, and wanted. Is that so much to ask? =(

Possibly a bit open to interpretation if they are just adding up max +mana on items known to them, but seems more than that.

[Rygar]

More evidence:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000510075914/http://www.eqnecro.com/noncgi/Forum11/HTML/000002.html
posted 04-25-2000
Hail all,
Well as i so hurriedly ran from butcherblock to cabilis with a lvl 9 monk. I gave my lvl 1 iksar necro items that totalled around 130mana. To my amazement, it added a big total of 0 mana. i thougth it might just be being lvl1, level 2 nada, level 3 nada, lvl 4 didn't get to play enough before i got booted. I did however cast my lvl 1 shield spell a few times and i can't tell if it added any at lvl 4. If anyone else has any information or same problems please let me know. I also have noticed that the iksar have a xp bonus to lvl 4 so far that i noticed. maybe its the newbie xp i dunno.

Others go on to say they don't have that problem from items, but this player is saying specifically to a level 1 or early toon, not an advanced character. They go on to reference EQ devs about soft mana cap which has already been referenced in the OP.

[Rygar]

Just posting as I find em.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010530004048/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000736
April 2001
I wanted to know if there were any downsides to the plus mana gear? Or does that depend on levels?
So if you give a level 1 player all of the mana items you can find it will not give them that much mana even if they have 200 int/wis.

Yep mana is capped per level. Each item gives like 1/20 of the total mana it gives at lvl 1 and like 2/20 at lvl 2 and like 3/20 at lvl 3 and Im banking that the cap is removed at around lvl 20. Sounds easy and something not too hard for verant to code.
This is speculation but the fact that mana items are capped is not.

[Rygar]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010601114047/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=1&t=007027&go=newer
April 19, 2001
I have a twink kit I put together to start all my low lev casters out with. All total My noobs start with +165 mana. At lev 1 when I put on all the equipment I get an extra 3 bubs and some change. It looks like I lose a ton o mana but I'm enlargeing my mana pool and I have to med up the added mana.

Here someone makes a claim of having a twink kit adding +165 mana on a level 1. I presume there is +INT/WIS gear that is improving their base mana as well.

There is no way a level 1 with +165 mana equipped gains only 3 bubbles of mana on their bar, that would imply they start with something like a 110 base mana pool without any gear on.

I would interpret this as they possibly doubled their INT/WIS which increased their mana a few bubbles, then the +mana cap allowed 1 extra bubble of mana. My guess is they had more in the realm of 30 to 40 total mana

[mycoolrausch]

I don't play p99 anymore so instead ill just have to live with the guilt my wizard was unfairly overpowered with too much mana, often doing as much damage to a mob as an ungeared level 56 rogue