Dot Stacking - not a bug

[Mazoku]

Patch that occurred on March 7th near 2am has changed the way DoTs are working in a most terrible way.

Druid:Creeping Crud and Stinging swarm no longer stack as they are supposed to.

Necro: Ignite and boil no longer stack.

These are the only ones that I've seen/heard/found so far.

Please have this issue looked at and resolved as soon as possible.

Thank you

[parlay1]

Stinging Swarm, Creeping Crud, Drones of Doom line of Druid Dot's are not stacking after the server came up after the patch.

I get "Your spell did not take hold"

[bizzum]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I only think one of each type of DoT can be cast on a mob. For druids one magic and one fire, shamans one poison and one disease.

[Riffu]

Morning there,

Just pulled a Grif in NK, it wouldnt let my magic series of DOTs stack (am a druid) and was stuck with the highest lvl variant - new patch? :eek:

>your spell did not take hold< error in red

Just snagged a HG and same issue

I know this was how classic was... but...


Riff.

Bah duplicate - i didnt see initially but DOT stacking has been reported separately already.

[parlay1]

no if it is a straight dot (doesn't change ac or debuff) then they always stack

[Thetan]

no if it is a straight dot (doesn't change ac or debuff) then they always stack
What he said. And they should stack between players too if they aren't.

[Droxx]

I can't speak for necro dots, but I recall druids only being able to stack 1 dot of each spell line on a mob.

[Uthgaard]

Working as intended.

What you had before, where every dot stacked with any other dot, was the bug.

[parlay1]

Hmm. Did they change it on live down the line then? I was just playing on live a year ago and the Stinging Swarm/drones lines stacked.

edit....I want to clarify, multiple people casting the same dot never stacked but me soloing casting all of them from that line they would always stack.

[guineapig]

edit....I want to clarify, multiple people casting the same dot never stacked .

This. It's not the same thing casting the same exact spell by 2 different people as casting different levels of the same spell.

[Nedala]

I doubt its working as intended, stinging swarm should stack with creeping crud, it just shouldn't stack with the same spell of another druid.

[mwatt]

Well, granted it's been a long time since I left EQ live.... about 5 years now. However, I distinctly remember Druid magic dots stacking and Necro fire dots stacking. Meaning, the same player could cast both lower and higher "versions" of the same line of dot.

It is possible I guess that this ability came along later and I just don't remember the that in the early days of EQ things perhaps worked as they are now working after tonights patch.

But I don't think so. I think this is a mistake.

[nilbog]

http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

How does this differ from how its currently working?

[moklianne]

About dot stacking from different casters of the same class (as much as I hate to post it):

from here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Several DoT spells that have debuff components such as Tuyen's Chant of
Frost and Breath of Ro will not stack due to the balance issues of
having several hundred points of Resistance debuffs on a single NPC.

[Gorgetrapper]

About dot stacking from different casters of the same class (as much as I hate to post it):

from here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Several DoT spells that have debuff components such as Tuyen's Chant of
Frost and Breath of Ro will not stack due to the balance issues of
having several hundred points of Resistance debuffs on a single NPC.

Which was a patch from 2002, well into Luclin.

[Uthgaard]

Right, so like I said. Working as intended.

[moklianne]

Right, so like I said. Working as intended.

Unfortunately, lol

[Badmartigan]

It's more of a big deal for druids than for necros IMHO...

[Haynar]

It's more of a big deal for druids than for necros IMHO...
Unless you are the 2nd necro in a group, or on a raid.

[parlay1]

Thank you Moklianne for the actual notes, I think this posted out on the main page for patch notes would go along way to avoid confusion after these patches. Just a thought.

[Uthgaard]

Those aren't our patch notes... Those are the patch notes from eqlive in 2002...

[parlay1]

I think the point remains. More communication will give you less headaches. Just a suggestion, in no way am I intending to give any grief.

[mwatt]

About dot stacking from different casters of the same class (as much as I hate to post it):

from here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Several DoT spells that have debuff components such as Tuyen's Chant of
Frost and Breath of Ro will not stack due to the balance issues of
having several hundred points of Resistance debuffs on a single NPC.


I can see why the above quote from the 2002 patch notes, about "being an inferior spell, will still not stack" could easily be interpreted how it is being interpreted. But I believe that the CONTEXT of what is being discussed is two different players landing dots. I believe what this poorly written patch note is talking about is only intended to mean that for two different players, an inferior spell will still not stack.

I have found at least one reference from 2002 in a forum that clearly states that all druid "bug" dots stack. Here is an exceprt from that quote "And the best part about this is that it's one of the druid bug dots (which all stack by the way) and it takes just about immunity from magic to resist a bug dot.". See bushsetter's post at: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3571

If you look at the same series of patch notes that was quoted here, from 1999 through 2003, you will see no mention of changing things so that Druid spells of the same line will now stack. From this one can infer that which I believe to be true: For a single druid player inferior and superior dots in the same line will stack and always did. I have not such found a quote for Necros, but it is the same I believe. I did see a reference to a Necro dot stacking chart from 2003 but you have/had to be a paid member of Zam to actually look at the chart.

In addition to the 2003 quote about Druid dots, I have found several references from more recent years that state all dots in the same line will stack, for both Necros and Druids.

[Uthgaard]

http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

[mwatt]

Well that is a bit of a zinger Uth. You fight dirty :).

Still... there appears to be conflicting information. Naturally, it's your show of course. I'm sure you will do the right thing for making this the classic experience based upon the best evidence you can find. I'm equally sure that if new compelling evidence came to light, you'd do the right thing then too.

I appreciate your forebearance and willingness to listen. We are lucky to have you and the entire crew working on this. Super lucky.

Rock on. This server is the best thing going for gaming in the entire world right now.

[Badmartigan]

Unless you are the 2nd necro in a group, or on a raid.

Aye, I was speaking from a soloing perspective however..

[cbwatt1]

Hello All,

So to be clear, according to the post last referenced by Uthgaard on another forum, a (single) Druid should be able to stack certain dots within the same series at level 53 and above?

I took a Druid to 60 on Mithaniel Marr way back when and specifically remember stacking WD, DD and my epic DOT. I do not remember anything specific to pre level 53 and DOT stacking because I don't recall having a need or desire to do it. There were so many "enhancements" many of which were DOT related at that time I can't recall ever trying to stack in lower levels.

I could never stack the same DOT with another druid which was a coordination thing but could always stack with myself at least at higher levels.

It is what it is at this point. As my brother pointed out, it is their show and I for one an very grateful for all the hard work put in to support this effort and for the ability to re experience the original game. I was just hoping to experience it without the perception of nerf. Uthgaard is probably correct but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[mwatt]

Just to completely cap this from the point of my own input on the subject (it's already capped in reality per the devs) I was still struggling with memories of stacking these at some point and also some information I found from later years that claims they do stack.

So I hunted around some more and found even more evidence that Uth is dead nuts right. A link from July 2001 EQ Casters Realm also indisputably says that Druid dots from the same line (i.e. swarm, crud, etc.) do not stack. Link here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010911113329/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=909

Bottom line, in Classic EQ they did not stack, so they aren't gonna stack here. Kudos to Uth for knowing this, implementing it, and standing up politely in the face of being questioned while still sticking to his guns.

[Henri]

I'm just pissed because I never took advantage of it. I didn't even try it because why should they stack?

[Harrison]

The descriptions say that those dots don't stack.

It was well known on live that creeping crud and stinging swarm were the exception. For some reason, they always did. I even remember it myself. I remember the day I found out they did stack, and wondered why it was possible.

[williestargell]

See my post here on the patch notes: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28914&page=3

The quote from the notes on dot stacking changes had nothing to do with stacking of one individual's dots. It only changed and explained stacking of multiple necros, multiple shamans, multiple druids, in one group or raid stacking. I was playing live at the time and clearly recall that it did NOT change anything when you were the only person of your class present. It is really immaterial to this patch change and discussion. In addition, that change was made on the live servers much much later in the game - even if you were to interpret it to mean that they fixed dots as they were fixed yesterday, why should that effect our server which is supposed to be based on the way things were at the start pre-kunark at this point (not luclin where this patch was made).

The main problem is coming from the assumption that since druids have 4 magic dots that they are all part of the same line and simply upgrades to each other. That is not the case.

Line 1: stinging swarm, drones of doom
Line 2: creeping crud, drifting death

One line 1 spell should stack with one line 2 spell and one fire based spell. However two line 1 spells or two line 2 spells will not stack together. This is always the way it worked. Later when higher levels were available even further stacking became available

Now the post from EQdruids. That is hard to explain and does not jibe with my arguments I will freely admit, but that site was always wonky and frankly I feel that they were flat out in error when they posted that. The spell posts on allakhazam that I've linked in my other post clearly back up my premise that the magic dots that druids and rangers cast stack as i've described in two seperate lines.

[moklianne]

In addition to the 2003 quote about Druid dots, I have found several references from more recent years that state all dots in the same line will stack, for both Necros and Druids.

It was definitely changed at some point so that all of the druid swarm spells stack. The question is, did it change after or before the scope of this server? Unfortunately, I believe it happened in Luclin or later.

[Haynar]

Kudos to Uth for knowing this, implementing it, and standing up politely in the face of being questioned while still sticking to his guns.
I kind of intentionally avoided trying to fix it before. Spell stacking was such a mess in the code, every time I looked at it, my head hurt.

This one's for you Uth...

*cheers*

H

[Uthgaard]

No one posted a single thing about the dots stacking when they shouldn't have. No one posts about anything that gives them an advantage. But when it's a disadvantage, the forums get spammed with 'but I remember this!'

We don't just make changes to entire systems willy nilly. While some people are content to search the forums for the one quote from the mouth-breathing incompetent who posted something that contradicts what we did (and there's no shortage of conflicting information), we do our homework beforehand and look at all available sources to get the whole picture.

Imagine if someone 10 years from now wanted to determine the factual basis of which P99 forum troll had an emasculation complex, which one was a whore, which one was a cumguzzler and who really loved Glitch. You'll find points on all sides, finding conflicting information is a common occurrence in research, and 90% of development on p99 is research. The truth to one or another has to be weighed and evaluated.

Point being, if there are specific bugs, we'll hear them. But none of us want to sift through 10 pages of angsty anecdotes to find it.