Ogres, racial frontal stun broke

[Salty]

Halp our fat pals. From what Mashum was explaining to me, it seems like bash isn't interrupting the casting but the actual melee hits.

http://www.chaosguild.org/css/ogre.gif

[Brut]

Bump!

This has bothered me for a long time, too. Rolled a troll shaman over ogre shaman simply because I noticed from playing an ogre SK that the front-stun immunity didn't give ogre shaman the same advantage it did on live. It looks as if any form of melee has a mighty fine chance to interrupt spells (I'm clueless about bash), even at higher levels. I have rather fond memories from live of backing my fat ass into a corner and tanking 5+ mobs at the same time, all of which wailed the crap out of me yet still I'd get just about every spell off foolproof. That spell usually being Gate in the situation mentioned, but, yeah...

Ogre shamans are awful rare here, imho because of that alone. I mean, why go for one just for some sta/str when, as a shaman, you can easily self-buff them all the way to max? Barbs have less KOS to look out in the world, more wisdom. Trolls have the lovely natural hp regen. Ogre shamans are just a curiousity, like, umm, yum-yum, gnome warriors. The fattys should only be interrupted if they let a mob behind them or are being pummeled hard enough to start moving somewhere. Well, higher levels that be, with enough channeling. But even at 50 I usually get some lifetap off with SK only if the mob misses a few attacks, or if I get a lucky dice roll. The interrupts happen just about every damn time.

Tried to check out some allakhazam crap to verify this, but nothing much on the spell interrupt immunity. Some random forums had few mentions of how much of an advantage it is, but that doesn't sound too trustworthy.

[nilbog]

Lets help some ogres.

Need specifics as to how things work versus how they should work.

Here is a link discussing what can stun ogres, melee "movement" stuns for ogres, and spellcasting differences. Its from 2007, but I assume the ogre mechanics haven't changed . /shrug

(will need to scroll down some)
http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4393&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Can someone knowledgeable about this provide specifics as to how it should work in the scope of our server.. prekunark - velious?

[Mehav]

I played a troll shaman for many years on live, and had barb and ogre shaman friends. I know in the kunark era my ogre shaman friend was the only one who could solo juggs because he was totally immune to any frontal mellee based stuns. Regular mellee hits could cause enough pushback in theory I think to interrupt, but he would almost always regain casting, even with multiple monsters. I think part of the problem is the interrupt rate may be too high here even with very high amounts of channeling skill.

My personal experiences thus far have shown that the interrupt rate is pretty high, even with kick/bashes missing, like if you get hit twice you basically don't get a spell off it seems. I remember being hit multiple times, and having a very high chance of regaining my casts at high levels, the only exceptions would be that if you were kicked there was a decent chance it would be interrupted, and a guaranteed chance if you were bashed. I played my shaman mostly in kunark/velious era so I'm not sure how accurate my recollection is considering our timeline, but I would suspect the pushback rate is either higher on mellee or there is something fishy with channeling, and this sticks out much more for ogres due to the immunity.

Edit: Managed to talk to my shaman friend online and he basically confirmed that putting your back to the wall as any caster should prevent the pushback movement interruption from mellee sans bash/kick, but that as an ogre with the stun immunity that is how he was able to cast all the time. Even if there was minimal movement, he would always regain his casting.

[Ignacio]

I remember being hit multiple times, and having a very high chance of regaining my casts at high levels, the only exceptions would be that if you were kicked there was a decent chance it would be interrupted, and a guaranteed chance if you were bashed.

Edit: Managed to talk to my shaman friend online and he basically confirmed that putting your back to the wall as any caster should prevent the pushback movement interruption from mellee sans bash/kick, but that as an ogre with the stun immunity that is how he was able to cast all the time. Even if there was minimal movement, he would always regain his casting.

This is how it works on EQMac, which is stuck in 2004 PoP. A bit beyond the scope of this server, obviously, but channeling spells through attacks didn't change much from 1999-2004 iirc. Cleric tanks back into corners and just chain-stun on Al'Kabor and it works perfectly. The only time I ever really worried about interrupts as a paladin at max level/capped channeling was kick/bash. Finding some way to fix the ogre frontal stun/casting issue would definitely benefit the "classic" feel of the server as well as make ogre shaman a better option than it currently is.

[Haynar]

There are issues on the server, where you can hit a mob, with it behind you and the client spamming tath you cannot see your target. I am sure these issues are intertwined. It is something I will be looking into, to see what is off in the mechanics.

Haynar

[CronosZ]

I never played an SK or an oger, BUT as a Wizard from live who played from beta onwards through POP I can tell you that melee damage alone always had a chance to interupt a spell from being cast, and then stuns were a garunteed interuption. Some spells like gate wich i cast a million times seemed to be much less vulnerable to interuption for some reason. and once you reached lvl say 50 or 60 your ability to regain your focus was usually great enough to cast most spells even when under light to medium attack

Damage to you = chance of spell interuption even with no stun.

[JayDee]

I played an ogre shaman for many years, from around launch to pop era. Bash to me was just a normal attack. At max level I could channel through anything excluding spell stuns (which rarely happened with my outrageous mr).

This was also on a pvp server so I'd like to think I know this pretty well. Infact there were times I would check logs and see I channeled through multiple bashes and warrior kick stuns.

[JayDee]

I do not know what that fool is talking about in that thread Nilbog. Either that was implemented later or he is a moron. I am sure you can even check the code for a glimpse into that (?)

If I put my back against the wall and casted with a mob on me, I would basically channel through everything.

If I got interrupted it would be because of movement, a casted interrupt (wiz clash line w/e), or because I didn't channel through a series of attacks.

Fix Pls !!!

[Ferok]

From the thread nilbog linked:
Out of 100 bashes from a dark blue level 70 mobs a level 75 non-Ogre will see this happening:

10 bashes will have no effect at all other than generating some damage

20 bashes will stun you(2 of these you "resist" due to persistent casting)

70 bashes will interrupt you and there is nothing in this game that will help you

Out of the same 100 bashes an Ogre will see this:

100 bashes tickling muh belly

Worth a chuckle, but also accurate as far as I can remember.

[JayDee]

That guy is saying ogres only benefit over other races 2 out of ever 100 bashes lol.

Frontal Stun immunity is the most powerful innate abilities imo. I am actually laughing at him saying ogres only channeled through 12% of bashes (that should be an indication of how completely wrong he is) because any ogre caster on live would tell you that number is a joke.

I could put my back against the wall and I was basically assure I would channel through anything. Infact, it was the sole reason why ogres shamans were so capable at soloing in certain situations.

I check my combat logs habitually. Dunno what else to tell you except that maybe the modification they made later on (one guy discusses that) had something to do with that.

[Waedawen]

Any bonus to stun resist is good as hell, last time I checked

[JayDee]

Any bonus to stun resist is good as hell, last time I checked

Lol that comment is dumb for so many different reasons.

[Elissa]

Any updates on this issue? What additional information must be provided in order to implement this on P99 (or is it simply confirming that this was indeed a classic-EQ ability?) I'm finally starting to do some tanking on my Ogre and am looking forward to stun immunity as we're supposedly supposed to have. :)

[Lonedrahon25]

I have no proof of this, but i do faigly remember when i played an ogre that pretty much nothing stunned me frontal wise unless it was a spell or your normal melee knockback. I remember doing Velks on my shammy and just backing myself into the corner with 6 or so spiders on me just casting right along like it was no tomorrow.

[Haynar]

Because there is no push, there is implemented a chance to be interrupted by melee hits. It is applying interrupt for a bashes hit too, but you don't get the stun. I will make some adjustments to this system for Ogres, until we can get a properly mob push system in place. The biggest problem with this system, is if you are cornered, as an ogre you should be able to cast forever with no interruptions. A cornered ogre shaman should be tough to kill. Non ogres should be able to cast cornered, with only interruptions due to bash.

Haynar

[grindle]

Thanks Haynar 8-) time to roll me Ogre shaman

[Elissa]

Ya, thanks a bunch Haynar. :)

[girth]

Because there is no push, there is implemented a chance to be interrupted by melee hits. It is applying interrupt for a bashes hit too, but you don't get the stun. I will make some adjustments to this system for Ogres, until we can get a properly mob push system in place. The biggest problem with this system, is if you are cornered, as an ogre you should be able to cast forever with no interruptions. A cornered ogre shaman should be tough to kill. Non ogres should be able to cast cornered, with only interruptions due to bash.

Haynar

Any word on this? It's easily the biggest reason I chose Ogre as a tank class.
You seem to understand the mechanic perfectly though so I'm confident in a fix hopefully for this. The only thing that should interrupt Ogres are stun spells and motion interrupts, which are negated by corners and somewhat by walls too. A problem I foresee though is if you make ogres immune to the melee interrupts, we won't even need to go in a corner until a push system is implemented, although that would be closer to live then what it is now. =/

[Haynar]

A problem I foresee though is if you make ogres immune to the melee interrupts, we won't even need to go in a corner until a push system is implemented, although that would be closer to live then what it is now. =/
Exactly. So I am looking at an implementation of a reduced effect to the current system for Ogres. I just don't want to make them totally immune to interrupts. I probably need to get on live, and see how much the "push" will interrupt an Ogre, then pattern the adjustments to the current system to replicate that probability of an interrupt happening.

I got 2 finals this week, then I should get some more time to work on stuff.

Haynar

[ChairmanMauzer]

Doesn't the skill channeling work to mitigate standard melee interrupts?

[PhilPhans]

stun immunity and spells being interupted are two different things. I have played an ogre shaman on live since 2002. I got interupted plenty back in the day. but i never got the you are stunned message and couldn't do anything until stun wore off.. like my barb shaman friends. My shaman is only level 6 on p1999 and not may main .... Has anyone actually been Stunned on p1999 from the front on an ogre with melee? i don't really care about spells being interupted. Actually stunned.

[girth]

Doesn't the skill channeling work to mitigate standard melee interrupts?

Yes, channeling is supposed to let you cast sometimes when you get motion interrupted by npc melee attacks.

Motions interrupts are the only thing other than SPELLS than should stun an Ogre(from the front), but if you put Ogre in a corner or back to a wall, the motion is almost non-existent and there should basically only be spells interrupting you.

[girth]

stun immunity and spells being interupted are two different things. I have played an ogre shaman on live since 2002. I got interupted plenty back in the day. but i never got the you are stunned message and couldn't do anything until stun wore off.. like my barb shaman friends. My shaman is only level 6 on p1999 and not may main .... Has anyone actually been Stunned on p1999 from the front on an ogre with melee? i don't really care about spells being interupted. Actually stunned.

The problem is that when tanking and such, I put my fat ass in a corner, which should make it almost impossible to motion interrupt me and since I cannot be stunned I should basically be casting spells all day long without any problems, BUT the current system on here to make up for no 'pushing' from npc melee is to give npc melee a base chance to interrupt. This basically takes out the reason for ANYBODY in the game to plant themselves in a corner, it does nothing currently.

Why do I even explain to you people...the dev knows exactly whats up and thats what matters. I'm done in this thread unless Haynar needs something.

[insertname]

update?

[insertname]

necro rez ;)

was recently told its still broken.... Conformation?

[Lazortag]

Pretty sure it works, but you can still get interrupted by melee push.

[insertname]

ok thanks much