A Shady Goblin (Ring Roll) in Warsilk Woods

[spanky_kc]

Due to the nature of the quest, everyone seems to be an agreement that a roll should be instituted. Just like Scout/Ring 8 We will roll when the mob spawns and you will have 30 secs (to avoid multiple ppl switching toons) to roll 1000. Highest roll wins the right to turn in for the next progression of the Ring Quest(Selling or switching of toons is strictly prohibited and will result in a petition).

If there's anything that doesn't make sense with the proposed agreement feel free to comment.


-Floppin / signed.

[mcoy]

Sounds reasonable to set the precedent as early as possible.

-Mcoy

[Alesclandre]

Hoping GMs will enforce it.

[Wharfrat]

Agreed




Darkwharf

[pimpdrop]

Sure, sounds good to me.

Alagon

[ZiggyTheMuss]

you will have 30 secs (to avoid multiple ppl switching toons)

Wow I actually never even considered that people would do something like that... Shocking what pixels can do to people.

[hobart]

You'd think OP would be all about selling...

[Wallicker]

Agreed should be 55+ as well though

[CodyF86]

Do it.

[cackoy]

Agreed.. Good call! as early as now

[spanky_kc]

Agreed should be 55+ as well though

you have to be 51+ to do the quest.

[danceparty]

agreed!

[mcoy]

So far it appears that everyone that isn't AFK is on board with a roll. Awesome!

-Mcoy

[polishanarchy]

Agreed

[aaezil]

This isnt even the bottleneck you guys its angry goblin lmao

Nerds

[mcoy]

Have to start somewhere - only a couple people have made it past this part so best to establish the agreement early. The angry hasn't even spawned a second time yet has it?

-Mcoy

[Wallicker]

Let me give a bad idea - insta charm with strings on spawn to make lots of friends!

[loramin]

Full disclosure: I'm 100% pro-roll. But if you really want this to happen, history shows that this thread is pointless. No forum poll (what this is, more or less) has every done anything in-game in the entire history of this project (or at least not as long as I've been here).

Scout roll did not happen in the forums. People proposed the idea in the forum, but it wasn't until everyone went from clicking, to some rolls, to lots of rolls, to everyone except a few freaks rolling, before the staff made it a rule.

If Rogean liked inflicting rules on the player base he would have given us rotations years ago, and saved him and the staff countless hours of wasted time. But he didn't: he's stayed neutral, "above it all", and never added rules to the server unless he had to or unless the players created a consensus.

I mean who knows: Rogean is human and he could have a change of heart tomorrow. But if he acts the same way he's acted for the past decade, and I think he will, the only way to make a roll happen is in-game. The only thing posting here can possibly do is push people to roll in-game, but it's that rolling, not the posting, that will get us a rule.

[Senescant]

Angry Goblin too should be a roll. Agreed?

[mcoy]

We're down to just 1 AFK person remaining that hasn't joined the ranks of the roll crowd...

-Mcoy

[enjchanter]

Due to the nature of the quest, everyone seems to be an agreement that a roll should be instituted. Just like Scout/Ring 8 We will roll when the mob spawns and you will have 30 secs (to avoid multiple ppl switching toons) to roll 1000. Highest roll wins the right to turn in for the next progression of the Ring Quest(Selling or switching of toons is strictly prohibited and will result in a petition).

If there's anything that doesn't make sense with the proposed agreement feel free to comment.


-Floppin / signed.

ppl sell their ring 8's though

[Xilriz]

I got a crazy idea how about we keep it classic and first come first serve

[diamondfist]

Guess you guys never did scout much before it was a roll, or when they were trying to convert it over which took several months.


when a mob has no variance and the spawn time can be figured out from the last turn in, people will literally show up 30 seconds before the mob spawns to click fest... good luck getting them to agree to it. Cant really hold them to "but everyone here agreed" if the agreement was made before they logged in, and they weren't part of the conversation.

kinda like forum agreements ... there are many players who rarely if at all come to these forums.

reminds me of a time @ scout like 20 people wanted to roll, and I said right in say. I had no issue doing that but if player, x,y, or z shows up before this pops the agreement goes out the window because they aren't going to agree...

and sure enough one of them showed up =p



why cant staff get creative here. There are several things on this server that aren't classic due to some reasoning behind it.

why not just flip flop the timers for shady and angry. that way the same amount of rings will be going onto the server as it did on live. While dealing with most of the issues here.

then for icing on the cake, all they need to do on the shady is add a invisible npc with no name that despawns 10? 30 seconds? Before the shady goblin spawns and doesn't go back for say 10 minutes.

this will 100% make is so people cant autofire / afk + autofire / just show up for welfare pixels and make doing the quest earned as it should be.

[spanky_kc]

I mean, why even let it go to autofire. I know you got your piece, but the scout was plagued with autofire for years. We can learn from that era.

[Senescant]

I mean, why even let it go to autofire. I know you got your piece, but the scout was plagued with autofire for years. We can learn from that era.

This. Scout has been so nice since it transitioned to a roll.

[commongood]

I find this post and the general good vibes coming from most of the people posting here to be a good thing. Even if things aren't changed or implemented with this post alone it's an indication of good will.

I - for one - would be very much for this roll. But I think, as others have also pointed out, that we need a similar solution regarding angry goblin. Especially if it's true that people's quest pieces will get eaten.

What good is having a roll for one bottleneck that doesn't yield any reward when it immediately leads to another 3-day bottleneck where it's the wild west.

[Alesclandre]

Roll won't work for Angry Goblin because of variance.

[commongood]

Roll won't work for Angry Goblin because of variance.

That's true, it would make it messy. You could potentially still work out something like, those present at beginning of window and that stay there till he pops get to roll.

3 days with 10% variance comes to 72 hours +/- 7.2 hours, so it requires people to commit up to ~14.5 hours.

It might be too restrictive though. Maybe people could get like the first hour of the window to get there and then you have to sit tight till he spawns or forfeit your roll. Then he spawns and those present from +1 hour of the window's beginning get a roll.

It's a long way from a perfect solution.

[Alesclandre]

I'd rather have fair competition than sit 14hours to lose a roll.

[zodium]

I'd rather have fair competition than sit 14hours to lose a roll.

Beyond basic stuff like trade window positioning, your chance to win a clickfest is almost entirely dependent on ping. :o

[commongood]

I'd rather have fair competition than sit 14hours to lose a roll.

But there is no way there will be "fair competition" from how I understand this to work. If the mob doesn't announce the person turning in first and if you lose the item upon turn-in it's complete shit.

Let's say you and 5 others are there when he spawns. Do you all spam hand-in? Then, invariably, 5 people lose their quest piece.

Then where's the competition? Who ever is able to DPS-race the best? The other 5 people will have to go back and try and win roll for Shady Goblin.

That's the closest I can see it getting to "fair competition" but with catastrophic consequences for the people trying to hand in and not winning the dps race. There has to be a better way.

[diamondfist]

seems there is variance on shady... good luck doing rolls =x

[Senescant]

Update: Everyone today agree'd to roll, except Kelz and Kakao (some nobody I guess).

[azeth]

Agreed only for lvl 50+ characters. I personally will not abide by this for twinks or low levels.

[Senescant]

Agreed only for lvl 50+ characters. I personally will not abide by this for twinks or low levels.

You have to be 51+ to get the ring and be at this point in the quest.

[azeth]

You have to be 51+ to get the ring and be at this point in the quest.

Good

[Senescant]

What I proposed is when it spawns, everyone has 30seconds to /rand 1000. Highest wins. Very civil and simple. It's just the people using autofire tricks that are ruining it for everyone atm. Hopefully they move along and the rest of us can avoid being turds.

[Bbeta]

Who won today? Or has it not popped yet?

[loramin]

Update: Everyone today agree'd to roll, except Kelz and Kakao (some nobody I guess).

Let the server-wide shaming begin.

[Senescant]

[Wed Feb 13 08:10:27 2019] You say, 'we can do 2 things'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:35 2019] You say, '1) we can let him have it and be civil about it starting tomorrow'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:58 2019] You say, '2) we can all roll since we're here not afk and can make the agreement to make THIS SPAWN a roll'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] You say, 'Thoughts?'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] Kelzaraz says, 'or u can stfu and stop being pathetic for hours'

Kakao is on board to roll if kelz would be. Its kelz that's spoiling everyone's good time this morning. And no pop yet Bbeta.

[Masakizt]

You'd think OP would be all about selling...

[fan D]

Kakao is on board to roll if kelz would be. Its kelz that's spoiling everyone's good time this morning. And no pop yet Bbeta.


staring at a wall for hours is probably not "everyones good time" but i'm just guessing

[TheSurgeon]

[Wed Feb 13 08:10:27 2019] You say, 'we can do 2 things'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:35 2019] You say, '1) we can let him have it and be civil about it starting tomorrow'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:58 2019] You say, '2) we can all roll since we're here not afk and can make the agreement to make THIS SPAWN a roll'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] You say, 'Thoughts?'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] Kelzaraz says, 'or u can stfu and stop being pathetic for hours'

Kakao is on board to roll if kelz would be. Its kelz that's spoiling everyone's good time this morning. And no pop yet Bbeta.

I see we have another unreasonable sack of human shit on our hands.

[loramin]

At least he didn't win. Timer is at 8:45 AM PST after Murobb got it.

[Alanus]

I think rolling is least likely to cause problems

[Senescant]

spawned at 8:44am pacific time. See y'all tomorrow.

[aaezil]

can we ban kelz for being a dipshit at the WW roll today please thanks everyone

[Sadiki]

A GM typing one sentence would resolve it, and most of the people want to be civil. Stop letting toxic players ruin your server in easily resolvable situations and things wouldn't get this bad all the time...

At what point does a player agreement go from "one player can prevent it from being a thing" to "a player violating it is punished"?

[Kelzar]

[Wed Feb 13 08:10:27 2019] You say, 'we can do 2 things'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:35 2019] You say, '1) we can let him have it and be civil about it starting tomorrow'
[Wed Feb 13 08:10:58 2019] You say, '2) we can all roll since we're here not afk and can make the agreement to make THIS SPAWN a roll'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] You say, 'Thoughts?'
[Wed Feb 13 08:11:10 2019] Kelzaraz says, 'or u can stfu and stop being pathetic for hours'

Kakao is on board to roll if kelz would be. Its kelz that's spoiling everyone's good time this morning. And no pop yet Bbeta.

Good try Lol

Lets talk about how you was summoning pets in the turn in spawn point.
Lets talk about how you were trying to open trades with people in the turn in.
Lets talk about how you were casting levitate multiple times levitate on the people to force them to be position moved.
Lets talk about how you was basically a harassing A for hours, just because multiple people didnt agree with your opinion.

Good try :)

When the event becomes a roll, as Scout did after so long, I will gladly roll.
I will not simply let a trolly nobody attempt to harass me or other people, during the window of an event just because he or his guild believes that behaviour is correct. Make it properly, and once it gets a official call, people will respect it, meanwhile refrain from doing those shady illegal behaviours posted up there and of course of sending tells for hours harassing people with scumbagery.

Have a great day <3

[Senescant]

A GM typing one sentence would resolve it, and most of the people want to be civil.

This. I'll even write the sentence.

When Shady and Angry Goblins spawn, players will have 1 minute to /rand 1000 and when the minute is up the winner will turn in their quest pieces. Anyone found to not be cooperating with this rule will be dealt with.

Two sentences. Norrath is a better place.

[azeth]

This. I'll even write the sentence.

When Shady and Angry Goblins spawn, players will have 1 minute to /rand 1000 and when the minute is up the winner will turn in their quest pieces. Anyone found to not be cooperating with this rule will be dealt with.

Two sentences. Norrath is a better place.

Thats not classic and like every other "rule" on this server, creates a rabbit hole argument.

Player made is player made. if someone fucks up, then its their reputation thats damaged. if thats not enough to deter the behavior, then the community is the problem

[Senescant]

Only 1 person didn't agree with rolling and because of that people were afraid that if they rolled you'd just hand it in, Kelz. If you'd like logs of that please let me know.

And only 1 person QQ'd about my silly shenanigans. Everyone else was having a good time.

Also, I don't recall any of my tells being harassing in nature, but if you found them to be so then I'm sorry for that. Most of my tells were on the order of "hey, would you be willing to roll if everyone else is" and everyone else responded with an affirmative. I was only trying to bring some order, civility and fairness to this new quest so that people don't have to a) cheat or b) be hindered by their cross Atlantic/Pacific internet.

[loramin]

Good try Lol

Lets talk about how you was summoning pets in the turn in spawn point.
Lets talk about how you were trying to open trades with people in the turn in.
Lets talk about how you were casting levitate multiple times levitate on the people to force them to be position moved.
Lets talk about how you was basically a harassing A for hours, just because multiple people didnt agree with your opinion.

Good try :)

When the event becomes a roll, as Scout did after so long, I will gladly roll.
I will not simply let a trolly nobody attempt to harass me or other people, during the window of an event just because he or his guild believes that behaviour is correct. Make it properly, and once it gets a official call, people will respect it, meanwhile refrain from doing those shady illegal behaviours posted up there and of course of sending tells for hours harassing people with scumbagery.

Have a great day <3

Everyone on the server except you is willing to roll. Only a sociopath could see that and be like "no, what I'm doing is ok".

But as Azeth said, it all comes down to your reputation. I'm telling everyone in EC about you (and hopefully others will too), everyone who reads this thread knows about you, so pretty soon you'll learn that playing by yourself in a MMOG isn't that fun ... but unlike the rest of us you'll have to wait until that is forced on to you, rather than realizing your reputation matters before losing it.

And of course I'm not trying to say the whole server population will magically learn your name. You'll still get some ports and groups and such. But you'll also have lots of people turn you down because of your rep, and for me personally that really doesn't seem like a good trade for getting some stupid ring upgrade a few weeks before you otherwise would if you had just rolled like everyone else.

[azeth]

Haha but with Kelz its like do i want superman on my raid/in my group even if he was a jerk one time?

"hey superman? yea lf1m at camp XYZ"

[aaezil]

God his scumbag reply...

Just roll dude, jeez

[loramin]

Haha but with Kelz its like do i want superman on my raid/in my group even if he was a jerk one time?

"hey superman? yea lf1m at camp XYZ"

/shrug some people might. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of people on this server will pass on the anti-social asshole who has proved they'll happily screw over the rest of the server for some pixels. I mean having a guy with good gear is great ... up until they ninja loot something awesome. Kelz has shown they're exactly the type of person who would do that, and I personally wouldn't invite such a person to my group no matter what they're gear is.

[Sadiki]

...creates a rabbit hole argument.

Player made is player made. if someone fucks up, then its their reputation thats damaged.
Except it just comes to the forums as a bunch of lies and arguing anyways. Just mandate a roll officially and avoid all that. It's silly to avoid implementing a rule that already has a precedent and reduces toxicity just because of some hypothetical stuff. It's the better solution, proposed by people who don't want to cheat and argue.

What even is a damaged reputation on P99? Isn't success here directly proportional to how terrible of a person you are?

the community is the problem
This isn't wrong, but what is the community going to do? Toxic_Player can run around and do this stuff all day with no repercussions. Community can't make it a roll because of Toxic_Player, community can get physically trolled by Toxic_Player, and they still get to show up and do it the next day. Rules, unfortunately, are needed in 2019-era EQ because everyone sucks.

[Kelzar]

If people agrees to roll, in a some kind of official form of course I will roll rofl.

But dont pretend to change rules of events while they are happening and people is not even agreeing to it, it just not works like that.

Telling lies and half-truths is very easy.

[loramin]

If people agrees to roll, in a some kind of official form of course I will roll rofl.

But dont pretend to change rules of events while they are happening and people is not even agreeing to it, it just not works like that.

Telling lies and half-truths is very easy.

People DID agree to a roll. Everyone, in fact, except you. That's kind of the entire topic of discussion in this thread ...

[Kelzar]

People DID agree to a roll. Everyone, in fact, except you. That's kind of the entire topic of discussion in this thread ...

Thats just not truth.

Kakao, <AG> disagreed openly.
Everyone else, this not disagree but was for HOURS in position of turn in.

So what do you expect from people? Make choices during the events happening? Make them choices while 90% of the people is not even following the supposedly majority?
Make decissions when there is not even clue about the real window of the event?

There is so many variables, which should be debated, but not in game, but not while the mob is supposedly in window.

And I bet thats why EVERY single one person was there with the click ready to go.

Without a clear system there won´t be a clear reaction. Things are pretty simple, but needs to be adressed, in the PROPER way.

[aaezil]

You can't be the one dude disagreeing to the roll and then claim " i would roll if everyone agreed "

You sound like donald trump lmao

[Mikebro]

Kelzaraz the shady goblin scumlord... go to sleep man chardoks almost been out a week. #bankelzaraz #freedaldaen

[Senescant]

[Wed Feb 13 08:03:27 2019] Cartel -> Chunkerz: Kakao is fine with doing it, like me
(talking about rolling)

Anyways, Kelz has /signed it looks like. Any other objections?

[JayDee]

Everyone on the server except you is willing to roll. Only a sociopath could see that and be like "no, what I'm doing is ok".

But as Azeth said, it all comes down to your reputation. I'm telling everyone in EC about you (and hopefully others will too), everyone who reads this thread knows about you, so pretty soon you'll learn that playing by yourself in a MMOG isn't that fun ... but unlike the rest of us you'll have to wait until that is forced on to you, rather than realizing your reputation matters before losing it.

And of course I'm not trying to say the whole server population will magically learn your name. You'll still get some ports and groups and such. But you'll also have lots of people turn you down because of your rep, and for me personally that really doesn't seem like a good trade for getting some stupid ring upgrade a few weeks before you otherwise would if you had just rolled like everyone else.

Did you just threaten to tattle on him

[Farellron]

I'm not going to hammer Kelz for this.

I'm ok with a roll, but I also think the terms need to be established before people just start demanding you accept whatever ad hoc system they've came up with at that particular moment.

Yesterday before most people knew about the variance we rolled and the guy that won had over an hour to do his hand in. People came and went after the roll who would've never had a chance because this shit was determined before they showed up and also well before the mob spawned.

Layout something like;

1.) You needed to be there when the mob spawned. People take a /who when he pops
2.) 30 seconds to roll from mob pop, no exceptions
3.) whatever else is agreed upon.

It's that simple. We've had 2 days in a row of certain people trying to dictate terms to the people who were there before and after them.

This isn't pass the law to find out whats in it.

If you've got a just system...propose it. Stop being mini mob rule asshats.

[Kelzar]

I'm not going to hammer Kelz for this.

I'm ok with a roll, but I also think the terms need to be established before people just start demanding you accept whatever at hoc system they've came up with at that particular moment.

Yesterday before most people knew about the variance we rolled and the guy that won had over an hour to do his hand in. People came and went after the roll who would've never had a chance because this shit was determined before they showed up and also well before the mob spawned.

Layout something like;

1.) You needed to be there when the mob spawned. People take a /who when he pops
2.) 30 seconds to roll from mob pop, no exceptions
3.) whatever else is agreed upon.

It's that simple. We've had 2 days in a row of certain people trying to dictate terms to the people who were there before and after them.

This isn't pass the law to find out whats in it.

If you've got a just system...propose it. Stop being mini mob rule asshats.

Thats what I would have said if had better english.

Also keep in mind, how fast you zone/log in game now, so should even keep in mind to use a lower time than 30 seconds to avoid asshattery related to toon swaps or anything which went against a common sense of a play nice policy.

[Senescant]

It takes 30 seconds to camp though.

[Sadiki]

It takes 30 seconds to camp though.
I could easily /q and log into another account in 30 seconds.

Even 15 seconds is fine because it follows the mentality of "you wouldn't have won the clickfest if you were AFK anyways". It sucks, but it's fair and not a clickfest.

[azeth]

Speaking of which I cant believe how fast my load times are after the patch. I load in from zoning/log in in what seems like 2-3 seconds.

[oqrelord]

Thats what I would have said if had better english.

Also keep in mind, how fast you zone/log in game now, so should even keep in mind to use a lower time than 30 seconds to avoid asshattery related to toon swaps or anything which went against a common sense of a play nice policy.

I enjoy your solo artist videos.

[Senescant]

Ok, so for tomorrow:
Shady Gobo Spawns
15 seconds to roll
Winner turns in.

Sound good with everyone?

[Farellron]

I'm good with that.

But, it's A shady goblin...An angry goblin is the next roadblock.

[Senescant]

Fixed, sorry bout that

[loramin]

I'm ok with a roll, but I also think the terms need to be established before

Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The staff does NOT just throw down rules. They've never done so in the entire decade-plus history of the project unless they absolutely had to (eg. the raid scene was becoming such a nightmare for them to manage so they tried the class C and R thing). If there is any way for the staff to avoid making a rule, they will do so.

This does not mean Rogean likes dealing with petitions! In fact, he's has said on multiple occasions that he doesn't, and that he prefers to for the players to sort things out. But Rogean takes a "hands off"/laissez faire approach, even though he wants order/sanity, because it's what's best for the server (people who run other failed servers have scared players away by having too many or too biased rules, while Rogean has remained neutral here and the server has thrived).

So, what has to happen for a new rule to be introduced to P99 is one of two things:


There must be a CS nightmare for the staff
The players must all agree


Before Scout we only had the first option. But then the whole server (or at least the part that cared about Scout) came together, "made up" rules, and enforced them with zero GM influence whatsoever; they only used peer pressure. Amazingly, it worked! The losers who refused to roll were shamed into stopping their clicks, and THEN the staff stepped in and made it so that if future losers tried to click they'd actually get punished for violating a player agreement.

But look, NO ONE here is saying it's fun to have to brow beat a bunch of players into acting like adults. EVERYONE agrees it'd be way easier for the staff to just establish a rule instead. But that's not how things work on P99. If you don't like that, send Rogean a PM about how he should just establish rules for this ... and don't hold your breath waiting for a reply ;)

If we as the player community want a rule, we have to make it happen, and the only tool we have to do that is communication. Communicating with each other to come up with rules that work for everyone and can't easily be cheated, and communication among the server to let everyone know about the people who refuse to "play nice" and follow to the player agreement (again, until such time as it becomes established and the staff steps in).

TLDR; So in other words, if you say "I won't follow any agreement until it's made official", what you're actually saying is "I will hinder the process of making any agreement official by violating what everyone else has agreed to."

[Farellron]

Where did I say staff has to lay down the rules?

I didn't. So don't try to stand up a strawman to justify showing up after he's been in window for hours and trying to dictate terms to people that have been there from the beginning.

I said we need to propose and vet an idea before we have every Tom, Dick, and Harry trying to come up with something ad hoc while people have already been at the spawn.

That's it.

[Senescant]

Ok, so for tomorrow:
Shady Gobo Spawns
15 seconds to roll
Winner turns in.

Sound good with everyone?

[AwesomeSquared]

Ok, so for tomorrow:
Shady Gobo Spawns
15 seconds to roll
Winner turns in.

Sound good with everyone?

The only clarification I would make is to have everyone huddle on the side of the floor away from the spawn, so its clear if/when someone runs over and turns in.

[Senescant]

The only clarification I would make is to have everyone huddle on the side of the floor away from the spawn, so its clear if/when someone runs over and turns in.

Sounds good to me.

Ok, so for tomorrow:
Everyone assembles away from the spawn
Shady Gobo Spawns
15 seconds to roll
Winner turns in.

Sound good with everyone?

[aaezil]

So if 1 person decides they don't want to roll again its back to clickfest? Where is staff?

[Lewkeng]

Mob with varience, Spawns you got 5sec, keep this shit a competition not lemme hear my triggers go off first

[Brocode]

could roll when window Starts, once pop have 30 secs to turn in then, next high roll if fails to do so.

[aaezil]

The variance is unknown - it's supposed to be a 24 hour flat timer but they changed it for p99 i guess

[Bbeta]

Good luck with the roll / turn in today guys

[Senescant]

Todays update: Would be a roll but Kakao and Siryado pretending to be afk while poopsocking on spawn point. The other nine of us on board with a roll.

[Senescant]

Thanks Bbeta. Bummer you were working through the angry spawn yesterday. GL though saturday.

[Senescant]

Updates!
Kakao confirmed to be actually afk. Apologies to him, too late to edit old post.
Other than Siryado, whos not responsive, maybe afk the other 10 or so of us have agreed to roll.
When shady spawns we'll /rand 1000. We'll have 10 seconds to do so. I'll update later.

[loramin]

Updates!
Kakao confirmed to be actually afk
Other than Siryado, whos not responsive, maybe afk the other 10 or so of us have agreed to roll.
When shady spawns we'll /rand 1000. We'll have 10 seconds to do so. I'll update later.

Looks like a lot more than 10 now (20?) are rolling. So nice to see that everyone (or at least all but one loser) is willing to play fair.

[Bbeta]

Looks like a lot more than 10 now (20?) are rolling. So nice to see that everyone (or at least all but one loser) is willing to play fair.

Are you saying, not agreeing to roll is unfair? Or not rolling in general is unfair?

[Senescant]

Not agreeing to fairness is unfair.

[dennardscott86]

Willfight Agrees

[loramin]

Are you saying, not agreeing to roll is unfair? Or not rolling in general is unfair?

I'm no English major ... er, actually I am, but still I didn't think this was a terribly difficult couple of sentences:
Looks like a lot more than 10 now (20?) are rolling.

Translation: almost everyone is rolling

So nice to see that everyone (or at least all but one loser) is willing to play fair.

Translation: it's nice to see that almost everyone is rolling

[Bbeta]

So what you're saying is, fair game play is a bunch of afk people at a spawn with variance running GINA triggers while at work waiting for chimes to alert them it's time to roll. Alt tab into game then roll with the masses that were actually playing and paying attention?

Loramin, you left us all to our own interpretation of what you consider fair game play.

[loramin]

So what you're saying is, fair game play is a bunch of afk people at a spawn with variance running GINA triggers while at work waiting for chimes to alert them it's time to roll. Alt tab into game then roll with the masses that were actually playing and paying attention?

Loramin, you left us all to our own interpretation of what you consider fair game play.

Really? You're really doing this? You're really going to try and argue that when 20 people all agree to random it's not fair, but making everyone click like a maniac because one loser refuses to roll is fair? Really?

[Senescant]

Originally Posted by Senescant
Ok, so for tomorrow:
Everyone assembles away from the spawn
Shady Gobo Spawns
10 seconds to roll
Winner turns in.

Sound good with everyone?

It was decided to give everyone 10 seconds instead of 15.

Currently 18 people have agreed to roll. Siryado has not responded to a tell about the rules we've agreed upon, we'll see what happens.

[Bbeta]

Ah thanks for the clarification. Lots of questions in there which I already have answered by, rolling, when 12 people agreed to roll.

I'm asking you what do you consider fair game play. You indirectly answered, Yes, you are okay with a bunch of people standing at a spawn point afk with text triggers telling them to roll on a mob that pops once ever 24 hours with variance.

Well for the 3 day spawn with a 14 hour variance, I'm not okay with that

[loramin]

Ah thanks for the clarification. Lots of questions in there which I already have answered by, rolling, when 12 people agreed to roll.

I'm asking you what do you consider fair game play. You indirectly answered, Yes, you are okay with a bunch of people standing at a spawn point afk with text triggers telling them to roll on a mob that pops once ever 24 hours with variance.

Well for the 3 day spawn with a 14 hour variance, I'm not okay with that

Great. Luckily it doesn't come down to what you're ok with ... or what I'm ok with for that matter.

This lovely/terrible system Rogean has given us. where he refuses to step in until we work things out ourselves, forces us all to find the best possible solution for everyone. That's the only way we can get everyone on board, and getting everyone on board is there only way to have sanity/fairness.

It's actually pretty evil genius when you think about it: yes it means you have situations where 20 people all agree and one loser refuses and tries to click, but in the long run it creates this Darwinian setup that forces what's best for the server to become reality.

[Bbeta]

Luckily with angry, there will be only 4 people there during Saturdays window. 2 of which don't agree on rolling (I believe). So it will be a 50 50 split. I guess the only way to settle it fairly would be duels to the death. I'll take the first opposing challenger

[Senescant]

Anyways and update. No spawn as of yet, but Siryado has gotten back from his afk I guess and appears to have joined the rest of us. It appears we have 100% that have agreed to this roll.

At Bbeta, when it pops just run from zone line. The north qeynos zone line.

[Bbeta]

Anyways and update. No spawn as of yet, but Siryado has gotten back from his afk I guess and appears to have joined the rest of us. It appears we have 100% that have agreed to this roll.

At Bbeta, when it pops just run from zone line. The north qeynos zone line.

Buh humbug. I'd lose :(

[Senescant]

It popped, everyone rolled. Grats Valewind with a 997! Cya all tomorrow.

[loramin]

Woot, we can have nice things!

[RedXIII]

I don't like rolling for things that have variance. P99 GM's could remove the variance if rolling for things will be enforced. ;)

[Senescant]

Didn't see you there today Henrique :O

Also, yes, please remove the unclassic variance from shady gobo.

[RedXIII]

Didn't see you there today Henrique :O

Also, yes, please remove the unclassic variance from shady gobo.

Was at work, and my work i actually have to pay attention to things, cannot tab-in once a gina sound alert comes out hehe.

But you will see me soon enough snipe your turn in with my 300 ping click festival variance for 8hr straight! yey! fun times! \o/

[Sadiki]

I thought it was confirmed shady wasn't supposed to have variance. It seems like there's still been no comment from the Gods on anything regarding rules or variance or anything. Players are actually trying to get along and not bash their heads into walls, pls respond ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

[enjchanter]

I don't like rolling for things that have variance. P99 GM's could remove the variance if rolling for things will be enforced. ;)

Yeah I haven't seen any rolls for VT or VD yet
Or tov dragons for that matter

[Para99]

Reading through the Zam comments, all the posts I see point to the variance being added or the quest being temporarily bugged after the June 5, 2002 patch resulting in a lot of "This spawn has been changed and is no longer 24 hours" posts in that month.

If someone working on the quest has the motivation there is probably definitive evidence somewhere out there to get this fixed next patch.

[Oleris]

https://i.imgur.com/z9gqMMw.gif

[Bbeta]

Who won today?

[aaezil]

Who won today?

Window just recently opened (we think)

[Alanus]

Hasnt spawned yet

[ZiggyTheMuss]

Hasnt spawned yet

How many unemployeds we got there in WW?

[Senescant]

https://i.imgur.com/44mmbJQ.png

Todays shady...

[Castigate]

ppl sell their ring 8's though

Wanted to point out that this will get you suspended, if someone other than the person who won the roll ends up with ring 8 you should be petitioning them, and you should always watch the entire thing play out with fraps running.

I'm pretty sure I got mine due to announcing that I was frapsing it.

Shady probably isn't being enforced yet though so it's really not the same situation

[Dillusional]

Didn't they implement variance on the mobs instead ?

[Senescant]

They sell their ring8s via MQing it for the ring9.

[jag2kk]

please update this agreement to mimic ring 8 roll where we all come together at a certain time of day before window opens to roll on turn in.

[Castigate]

They sell their ring8s via MQing it for the ring9.

Yeah I read that wrong

[Senescant]

please update this agreement to mimic ring 8 roll where we all come together at a certain time of day before window opens to roll on turn in.

This is next on the agenda and being discussed now. The assumed window is +/- 3 hours. (we haven't seen any - yet...).

We're proposing that people show up and roll at 11am eastern for tomorrow, which is before the assumed window. As part of the agreement the winner would update the post with the spawn time or ask someone to do it for them if they're incapable of making a forum post (forum bans!), and we just round down to the hour and set that as the roll time.

Thoughts?

[Sadiki]

Top 3 winners should all stay and be ordered so that people who leave/troll/LD/AFK do not destroy the process. People would win 8th ring and wait 6 hours to turnin on purpose because no one else was around to yell at them.

The rule doesn't need to be drastic, but if the guy is AFK over 5 minutes it should go to the next person.

[Senescant]

Top 3 winners should all stay and be ordered so that people who leave/troll/LD/AFK do not destroy the process. People would win 8th ring and wait 6 hours to turnin on purpose because no one else was around to yell at them.

The rule doesn't need to be drastic, but if the guy is AFK over 5 minutes it should go to the next person.

I'm ok with something like this. Maybe the next highest person can stay and turn in if the winner takes too long? If they don't' want to stay, 3rd can and so on.

[Bbeta]

Hmm sounds like a list, I approve

[Senescant]

It's kinda way different from your list. Both in motives and execution.

But thanks for the support.

[Sadiki]

Not permanent list. Just for that roll.

Permanent lists that get bloated over time are dumb and don't work. Glad yours worked out for you, though.

[Bbeta]

Not permanent list. Just for that roll.

Permanent lists that get bloated over time are dumb and don't work. Glad yours worked out for you, though.

The list is only permanent while the majority of players who have the report what to keep it that way. I'm not a dictator. I'm just a thinker

[Senescant]

Glad yours worked out for you, though.

[Senescant]

Grats Henrique on winning todays roll!

https://i.imgur.com/skgv5Ux.png?1



Tomorrow we will gather at 11am eastern and roll. Winner will wait it out and post the turn in time. Next roll will be 3 hours earlier than turn in time, rounded down to the nearest hour.

[jag2kk]

Grats Henrique on winning todays roll!

Tomorrow we will gather at 11am eastern and roll. Winner will wait it out and post the turn in time. Next roll will be 3 hours earlier than turn in time, rounded down to the nearest hour.

I think 3 hours might be overestimating, right now the data suggests a 4 hour variance (+/- 2)

[Senescant]

Assuming its a 24h spawn, there's been 2 spawns greater than 26 hours.

[jag2kk]

Sounds good, Phathom will be there at 11am ET to roll :)

[Senescant]

We'll see how this works out. Can revisit Monday. Post thoughts on what's working or what isn't. I know some people are worried about making it "too easy" or "too casual".

Long time til Luclin anyways...

[Cylock]

Guess you guys never did scout much before it was a roll, or when they were trying to convert it over which took several months.


when a mob has no variance and the spawn time can be figured out from the last turn in, people will literally show up 30 seconds before the mob spawns to click fest... good luck getting them to agree to it. Cant really hold them to "but everyone here agreed" if the agreement was made before they logged in, and they weren't part of the conversation.

kinda like forum agreements ... there are many players who rarely if at all come to these forums.

reminds me of a time @ scout like 20 people wanted to roll, and I said right in say. I had no issue doing that but if player, x,y, or z shows up before this pops the agreement goes out the window because they aren't going to agree...

and sure enough one of them showed up =p



why cant staff get creative here. There are several things on this server that aren't classic due to some reasoning behind it.

why not just flip flop the timers for shady and angry. that way the same amount of rings will be going onto the server as it did on live. While dealing with most of the issues here.

then for icing on the cake, all they need to do on the shady is add a invisible npc with no name that despawns 10? 30 seconds? Before the shady goblin spawns and doesn't go back for say 10 minutes.

this will 100% make is so people cant autofire / afk + autofire / just show up for welfare pixels and make doing the quest earned as it should be.

You’re correct ...

about a year ago I asked Nilbog to randomize the spawn(s) to eliminate this issue. Yes it isn’t classic, but neither is having tons of people with previous knowledge about the quest.

[Sadiki]

about a year ago I asked Nilbog to randomize the spawn(s)
Is this referring to shady/angry?

I just feel like the current state of the quest is.. not fun. If it's gonna be a grind, I'd rather have a log-in-for-30-seconds grind than a sock-6-hours-a-day-potentially-forever grind. Both are dumb, but we're not going to get non-classic changes to speed up the amount of quests completed over time and improve the experience.

I'm hoping tomorrow's roll-in-advance option works out, because all people could decide on after debating was a 5 second roll window during a 6 hour window, which is just so alienating to most people. Makes me feel like we don't want people to experience and have fun with EQ, when we have the option to. All of these people all already put in the work to get Ally in the first place. EQ isn't hard.

Still, everyone would love a quick official chime-in on what constitutes a player agreement so we don't agree to roll in advance and have it degrade into a clickfest because of a random jerk.

[DMN]

The world will go on if you skip this quest. I promise.

[jag2kk]

Is this referring to shady/angry?

I just feel like the current state of the quest is.. not fun. If it's gonna be a grind, I'd rather have a log-in-for-30-seconds grind than a sock-6-hours-a-day-potentially-forever grind. Both are dumb, but we're not going to get non-classic changes to speed up the amount of quests completed over time and improve the experience.

I'm hoping tomorrow's roll-in-advance option works out, because all people could decide on after debating was a 5 second roll window during a 6 hour window, which is just so alienating to most people. Makes me feel like we don't want people to experience and have fun with EQ, when we have the option to. All of these people all already put in the work to get Ally in the first place. EQ isn't hard.

Still, everyone would love a quick official chime-in on what constitutes a player agreement so we don't agree to roll in advance and have it degrade into a clickfest because of a random jerk.

+1, I am rolling on Phathom at the designated time tomorrow because as much as I enjoy staring at walls for 6 hours I also don’t.

[Farellron]

Wait, I thought the justification of a roll over clickfest was that it was unfair and benefitted those lucky enough to have a low ping.

Now its being turned into a preset time because you don't want to waste your time?? This makes it look like the people pushing rolls real concern wasn't the unfairness, but wanting to win with no effort.

If you don't want to waste your time waiting on the mob to spawn for a roll then don't come.

I do not support a preset time roll at all.

[Kelzar]

Dont support here aswell.

Next step following this logic will be non presencial rolls ...

[Wharfrat]

Uhhh no cannot support this for so many reasons LOL...




Darkwharf

[Akashx]

i agree with farellron in all things because he gives me my buffs. i dont think a preset time roll would be honored by a lot of people that showed up before the pop but after the preset roll.

[aaezil]

Roll on pop is the only way most neckbeards will agree sorry lads its roll on pop or clickfest

Also you asked rogean if you could make this quest *worse* ? What the heck man lol

[aaezil]

"To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles... "

[Senescant]

Also you asked rogean if you could make this quest *worse* ? What the heck man lol

ya...

Anyways, there was enough opposition to the pre-roll that we can nix that I suppose. I hastily posted that after yesterdays roll because I had other shit to do.

Been getting some tells and PMs by people that want to just click too. Won't be around this weekend, so people can discuss what they want to do and how things went.

[jag2kk]

ya...

Anyways, there was enough opposition to the pre-roll that we can nix that I suppose. I hastily posted that after yesterdays roll because I had other shit to do.

Been getting some tells and PMs by people that want to just click too. Won't be around this weekend, so people can discuss what they want to do and how things went.

That's really disappointing but I am also not surprised, back to socking I guess .

[aaezil]

hardcore players dictating the game with no help from staff per usual is what i expected really

[Senescant]

Ya, it's hard to have an agreement when not everyone agrees. We'll see how things shake out. Maybe some adjustments can be made to try and appease everyone.

[loramin]

hardcore players dictating the game with no help from staff per usual is what i expected really

Sadly me too. What I don't understand is the staff deliberately making things worse for everyone.

What problem does variance solve? I honestly just don't get it.

[tycohunden]

I'm just glad we're getting along!
I'm so proud!

[Para99]

Intentional not classic variance is unfortunate. People knowing more about it applies to every aspect of such an old game. Plus the quest has plenty of classic bottlenecks. It's not like this is a Scout-like quest that can be done start to finish in 30 mins.

[masakist]

+1 for clickfest

[Sadiki]

Dont support here aswell.

Next step following this logic will be non presencial rolls ...
My mind is having trouble comprehending how this can possibly be used as a counterpoint.

Anyways, I pre-rolled for this 3 years ago and put the results into a time capsule. I'm gonna go dig it up. I can use that as my roll, right?

[Senescant]

Ok, to appease everyone. I'm proposing we try something new for a week. Monday through Friday (US Eastern Time, based on assumed window start of 21h after turn in) will be clicks while Saturday and Sunday can be pre-rolls (casuals are usually busy neckbearding shit like jobs mon-fri). Or maybe switch it, but many people have let me know they're still in favor of clicking and most people that are in favor of rolling would rather preroll.

This allows the neckbeardiest of the neckbeards to 'compete' and allows the most casuals of casuals to pop in and roll.

Thoughts?

[loramin]

Ok, to appease everyone. I'm proposing we try something new for a week. Monday through Friday (US Eastern Time, based on assumed window start of 21h after turn in) will be clicks while Saturday and Sunday can be pre-rolls (casuals are usually busy neckbearding shit like jobs mon-fri). Or maybe switch it, but many people have let me know they're still in favor of clicking and most people that are in favor of rolling would rather preroll.

This allows the neckbeardiest of the neckbeards to 'compete' and allows the most casuals of casuals to pop in and roll.

Thoughts?

With all due respect for your efforts to try and make all the people happy all the time (both with this and with getting the agreement established in the first place), I think that is a terrible idea.

It's like I keep saying: it's hard enough getting everyone to agree to the system we already have. Let's not keep trying to make it fancy, let's stick with what has worked so far (both here and with Scout): a simple roll within seconds of a spawn.

Plus we certainly don't need to carve out exceptions in the agreement for the kind of people who won't respect agreements in the first place. Those people are losing more and more power with every roll, because each successful roll brings us closer to an established player agreement in the eyes of the staff (if that hasn't happened already). The next time someone thinks they can cut in line in front of 20 people and just turn-in (which hasn't even happened yet and may never even happen), that person will likely get banned, and then we'll never have to cater to those idiots ever again.

Everyone with a brain wants a fair system. Clicks are unfair. Rolls suck, everyone agrees, but they are the clear least worst/most fair option (until the staff implements an unclassic solution for this at least, and don't hold your breath waiting for that). We have that least worst option established right now. It got established because it was simple: it's the closest thing to having no rules and being a clickfest, without actually being a clickfest.

Let's not ruin a good thing by trying to complicate it, just to appease a couple anti-social losers who would prefer an unfair system they can exploit (eg. with autofire) to a fair system that gives everyone an equal chance.

Intentional not classic variance is unfortunate. People knowing more about it applies to every aspect of such an old game. Plus the quest has plenty of classic bottlenecks. It's not like this is a Scout-like quest that can be done start to finish in 30 mins.

In another thread Nilbog said he wasn't aware the variance was unclassic, and that he'd fix it if it was. Several people then chimed in with evidence, so there is hope for a fix.

[Senescant]

I would say that more than 30-40% of the people at yesterdays rolled expressed their preference to click to me. And I would say that many people who have supported the roll over clicking would rather pre-roll instead of sit around and roll on pop. Also several people who are on each side have interpreted what Cylock meant when he quoted Diamond to mean many different things. So its a balance of trying to keep people happy and trying to ensure that madness doesn't overtake it. Right now I'd say very few are happy with it.

I'm hoping that with everyone getting the opportunity they want, even if its not every day that people will be content.

I'm not as worried about autofire as much. The quest will be relevant until Luclin is released for p99...so if a few people cheat the system that way they'll be out of the way in a relatively small amount of time.

And yes, a fix for the unclassic variance would be amazing.

We'll see what happens...

[polishanarchy]

Thought the whole point of this thread was to avoid clickfests. Roll has been working so far...

[Bbeta]

Angry is confirmed a huge variance. I ended up rolling on it with people. The list idea fell through pretty hard. Gl winners of shady because Angry is a motherfucker

[Bbeta]

14 hour window hasn't been confirmed, but I can confirm its at least 10 hours.

[Senescant]

Thought the whole point of this thread was to avoid clickfests. Roll has been working so far...

The problem is keeping an agreement when 1/3 of the people don't agree. If someone were to come along make it a rule or something....

[loramin]

The problem is keeping an agreement when 1/3 of the people don't agree. If someone were to come along make it a rule or something....

Every Shady that has ever existed on P99 except the first two have been rolled on successfully. Each time something like twenty people all agreed, and not a single person violated the roll. This has been going on, successfully for several days now. If there was any question of whether a player agreement existed before, it very clearly exists now.

And I just flat out don't buy this 1/3 number. I've been at every roll, and there's been one only person consistently wanting to roll(fixed)click (Siryado). At some rolls there's been maybe one or two (but not always even that) people threatening to join Siryado. Even so, both Siryado and those people have rolled with everyone else, every single time.

It makes absolutely no sense to change a 100% successful and (again, every sane person agrees) fair system just to appeal to Siryado and the handful of people who either want to cheat with Autofire, or are too stupid to realize they will lose to Autofire cheaters. It wouldn't make sense if there was no risk, and there's a HUGE risk that any change will break this very delicate balance we've established.

So please, you and others have worked very hard to get this roll established. Stop trying to make it fancy with special times, special days, or special anything. It needs to be just one step more complicated than a clickfest: that's the only way it's managed to succeed as much as it has.

[Senescant]

I can recall 7 names off the top of my head from yesterdays roll that communicated to me their opposition to the roll. Not all of them monks :P As Cylock pointed out, not everyone is on the forums making their opinion. But also agreeing to roll and agreement that it should be a roll are two different things.

Also I think you meant Click in your 2nd paragraph.

But we'll see what happens. Best case the variance is quickly fixed and we can have a set roll, because I think part of the reason that people aren't happy is to have to poopsock for several hours and give people who aren't paying attention a few seconds to tab back and roll.

[loramin]

I can recall 7 names off the top of my head from yesterdays roll that communicated to me their opposition to the roll. Not all of them monks :P As Cylock pointed out, not everyone is on the forums making their opinion. But also agreeing to roll and agreement that it should be a roll are two different things.

Also I think you meant Click in your 2nd paragraph.

But we'll see what happens. Best case the variance is quickly fixed and we can have a set roll, because I think part of the reason that people aren't happy is to have to poopsock for several hours and give people who aren't paying attention a few seconds to tab back and roll.

I think you're confusing "people casually bitching about not wanting to have to roll with 20 other people" for "people seriously wanting to not roll and instead give Shady to anyone willing to use Autofire". Obviously our experiences are different, but I just have not seen even close to a 1/3rd of people in game or here in the forum seriously wanting a clickfest.

Also, which Cylock quote are you talking about? Looking at Cylock's recent posts (https://www.project1999.com/forums/search.php?searchid=10333439) I don't see anything like that at all. Not the one from this thread I assume?

You’re correct ...

about a year ago I asked Nilbog to randomize the spawn(s) to eliminate this issue. Yes it isn’t classic, but neither is having tons of people with previous knowledge about the quest.

Because that doesn't say anything about the forum, opinions, agreements, or anything else we're talking about. Also, Nilbog sort of undercut that entire quote by saying he intends for Shady to be classic.

It's hard to remember the day I wrote this quest, almost a year and a half ago, much less the details.

Willing to fix it if it's wrong. I'm not sure how to interpret the last 2 posts in this thread if someone wants to translate.

Is it possible you were misattributing this post I made earlier in the thread for Cyclock? It does talk about how we can't just rely on the forum to set things ...

Full disclosure: I'm 100% pro-roll. But if you really want this to happen, history shows that this thread is pointless. No forum poll (what this is, more or less) has every done anything in-game in the entire history of this project (or at least not as long as I've been here).

Scout roll did not happen in the forums. People proposed the idea in the forum, but it wasn't until everyone went from clicking, to some rolls, to lots of rolls, to everyone except a few freaks rolling, before the staff made it a rule.

If Rogean liked inflicting rules on the player base he would have given us rotations years ago, and saved him and the staff countless hours of wasted time. But he didn't: he's stayed neutral, "above it all", and never added rules to the server unless he had to or unless the players created a consensus.

I mean who knows: Rogean is human and he could have a change of heart tomorrow. But if he acts the same way he's acted for the past decade, and I think he will, the only way to make a roll happen is in-game. The only thing posting here can possibly do is push people to roll in-game, but it's that rolling, not the posting, that will get us a rule.

But to be clear, my whole point there was that we needed to do exactly what we did: get the players, in-game, to agree to a roll, consistently for more than just one day.

[Senescant]

Part of what Cylock quoted and imo gave validity to was that many players rarely if at all come to the forums and "Cant really hold them to "but everyone here agreed" if the agreement was made before they logged in, and they weren't part of the conversation." He took Diamondfist's entire post and his first words were "You're correct".

While I want this to be fair, organized and civil. But I don't think you're being fair to everyone by telling a decent minority of people that they cannot play the game they want to play it either when no one has come out and said they cannot do it that way. That's what's driving me to make this fun and fair for everyone, because right now I still believe that it's not. I think finding the right balance and compromise that everyone is happy with should be the end goal, not just making everything "100% fair".

Let us both continue to try and make this enjoyable for everyone. Maybe after a short time everyone who's staunchly in favor of clicking will have moved on. But I don't think strong arming or cyber bullying anyone into playing a game a certain way is what's best, regardless of what side you're on. No changes need to be made today if we all agree. I just want to be fair to a portion of the population that wants to do this quest a different way, not the one standing in their way.

Also thank you for your continued feedback/support Loramin. If we had more people coming forward with their thoughts and ideas (or just one green name laying some authority on the matter) I think we'd have this wrapped up nice and quick.

[loramin]

Part of what Cylock quoted and imo gave validity to was that many players rarely if at all come to the forums and "Cant really hold them to "but everyone here agreed" if the agreement was made before they logged in, and they weren't part of the conversation." He took Diamondfist's entire post and his first words were "You're correct".

Right, so let's look at that Diamondfist post shall we? I'll separate every possible statement Cylock could have been referring to when he said "You're correct" ... but of course he never clarified which one (or more) of those statements he was actually agreeing with:

The bearer of entry is lowered when the timer is exact on mobs like this and scout.
Its lowered even more when it becomes a roll.
having 20-80 people show up on timed intervals to roll dice at a chance of loot doesnt feel classic at all.
As I mentioned in another thread staff could get creative with ways of not only breaking this up, but also punishing those who are breaking the rules by using autofire as a means to secure their turn ins. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2862191&postcount=132)
The other option is to really really fuck with variance and or spawn location (this isnt classic, but we do have unclassic things here already)
If this 24 hour mob had a variance more like 12 hours - 36? 48? hours you would set the bearer of entry back to what it was on live after the initial rush of neckbeards power gaming their way through the shitty windows.
(this would most likely take a few months)
after that you may actually find people logging in to randomly find it up like live...
You would actually have to ask around to find the timers for last spawn and do work...
instead of just showing up at an exact x time, or x time +/- a few hours
Which is a simple repetitive action. Scout rolls which have been established for a long time show how this plays out exactly.

In other words, the entirety of your argument that Cylock supports clickfests boils down to you assuming that he was agreeing with this one piece out of eleven from that post:

having 20-80 people show up on timed intervals to roll dice at a chance of loot doesnt feel classic at all.

And even if that one statement, out of the eleven, was really the one Cylock was agreeing to, that STILL doesn't say we should have clickfests because a couple of losers think they can win faster by cheating with autofire! Again, lost of things on P99 don't "feel" classic, and again rolls suck and definitely don't feel classic ... but they're still the least worst option, and anyone with a brain sees as much (we've had literally hundreds of Scout rolls involving tons of people, where everyone all saw eye to eye on that exact issue)

But given the context of Cylock's post, where he literally talks about getting Nilbog to add variance, it seems far, far more likely he was referring to this bit:

The other option is to really really fuck with variance and or spawn location (this isnt classic, but we do have unclassic things here already)

Look, it really feels like you've been talked into a position of trying to make everyone happy all of the time. That's noble, but it's also impossible. And cherry-picking just one point out of eleven and using it to argue that Cylock supports you doesn't make it any more possible.

Everyone, including you, has worked very hard to make this roll happen. Scout roll took months (years?), and we got everyone to agree on Shady by the third spawn ever on P99, and the agreement has not been broken once. That's awesome, that's incredible, that's worthy of celebration!

By trying to make everyone happy all the time you seriously risk destroying all that. You, of all people, should understand just how hard it is to get everyone to agree to anything. A straight roll within seconds of the spawn is literally the simplest option possible (besides clickfests). It's also the most obvious "least bad option" ... and it was still incredibly hard to make happen!

Any further changes risk ending our beautiful simple agreement. Plus, even if you could make them without breaking the current agreement, they're not worth making: scout doesn't have off days where people autofire their way into a Talisman of Benevolence, and Shady doesn't need them either.

[Para99]

Ok, to appease everyone. I'm proposing we try something new for a week. Monday through Friday (US Eastern Time, based on assumed window start of 21h after turn in) will be clicks while Saturday and Sunday can be pre-rolls (casuals are usually busy neckbearding shit like jobs mon-fri). Or maybe switch it, but many people have let me know they're still in favor of clicking and most people that are in favor of rolling would rather preroll.



I have no intention of doing this quest any time in the near future even if the timer is fixed so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but two different systems will be much harder for both players and GM's to enforce, especially once the timer lands on prime time during the week.Nothing on this server appeases everyone. Just my opinion.


In another thread Nilbog said he wasn't aware the variance was unclassic, and that he'd fix it if it was. Several people then chimed in with evidence, so there is hope for a fix.

I was one of those people :p Posted that before your thread.

[loramin]

I was one of those people :p Posted that before your thread.


Thank you!

[Senescant]

I think a large chunk of the issue the anti roll people have is that they are "competitively poopsocking" a window to have to roll. It's very anticlimactic and imo a waste of lots of people's time. I think if you're going to roll it should go all the way to a pre-window roll until variance is removed. If you're going to roll just roll.

If some people want to click today I will not stand in their way. For something that isn't a set rule I don't think its fair to tell people they have to play one way or the other when things haven't been set in stone. I think some balance can be found. We've altered the agreement based on feedback so far. I don't see why the agreement we've set forth cannot continue to be massaged to a point where more people are happy with it. There's room for everyone under this agreement with the current shady situation.

Cya there Loramin.

[loramin]

For something that isn't a set rule

It IS a set rule: that's the entire thing you and everyone else has been working for this entire time! Or to be more accurate, the rule is that you can't break player agreements, and what we've worked so incredibly hard for up to this point was to establish a player agreement

I don't think its fair to tell people they have to play one way or the other when things haven't been set in stone. I think some balance can be found.

You've done a complete 180 here, and I feel like you're trying to backstab the entire Shady community with this. Before you were actively organizing everyone to set things in stone, and now after several days of 20+ players all agreeing to the same player agreement, you want to pretend there's no agreement?

We've altered the agreement based on feedback so far.

Not really. The only thing that changed was the number of seconds after the spawn before people rolled. Otherwise it is the exact same agreement as Scout, and has been since the beginning; only the number of seconds changed, and that had to change because Shady has variance and Scout doesn't.


I don't see why the agreement we've set forth cannot continue to be massaged to a point where more people are happy with it. There's room for everyone under this agreement with the current shady situation.

No, there is not. You cannot make all the people happy all the time. It's almost like some incredibly famous president said as much.

The anti-social low lifes will NEVER be happy. If you somehow setup certain "click days", they will not be happy with them: they will want to click every day. And I guarantee that if you really push that angle the best you will do is destroy the entire agreement and create a constant clickfest for everyone. THAT is why I am fighting you so incredibly hard on this. A day or two of clicks won't ruin my world, but if you destroy this agreement we are all fucked, and it will be a million times harder to establish a new one. At best it will take months (and during those months Shady will be a pure clickfest). At worst we'll never again get Shady to be a roll.

Here's what I don't understand: after literally being the person who worked the hardest, and saw exactly how impossible it was to get twenty P99ers in-game (plus however many forum goers who just like to weigh in with opinions even though they aren't rolling) to agree on ANYTHING ... how can you possibly delude yourself into thinking that you could even change the roll from /random 1000 to /random 2000, let alone turn roll days into click days, and still get 100% consensus from all twenty people (not the same people every day ... and plus the forum also)? I mean, even if you hadn't seen anything else, just watching Siryado and seeing how hard it was to get one person to agree to what 19 others already agreed to, every day for these past few days, should have taught you something.

Did you not notice what a massive failure it was when someone tried to set a fixed time for the roll, even though everyone would likely agree that's an easier and sane way to do things? If the better (but more complex) agreement failed, what chance does an inferior (but also more complex) agreement that gives in to the cheaters a certain number of days a week have? Anyone who is familiar with Scout will be against it, because Scout has gone on for far longer without any issue, despite never having "click days".

The current player agreement is awesome: it is almost exactly like the very successful simple/existing Scout agreement, but adjusted for Shady, and we the P99 community made it happen far faster. It's almost like we learned a lesson, or some of us did at least, from the Scout experience.

Everyone follows to the current agreement (not 2/3rd, everyone). Everyone has agreed to it for several days now. It was nearly impossible to get set, and as a result it will be even more impossible to change it. If you, or anyone else, tries to change it you will fail, at best, and at worst you will destroy the entire agreement. But you will never, I repeat, never, make everyone happy.

[Senescant]

I'm saying that 100% of people agreeing to roll because that's what WE'VE told them to do is different than people agreeing that shady should be handled by a roll. The people who want to click have made great compromises and concessions for the people that want to roll so that the pro-roll crowd can do shady as they want. Mostly because they were bullied into doing so by some of the people there, including me at one point. I'm ashamed that I used such tactics to try and bring people over to my side of thinking. There's a different between agreeing with someone and just going along with someone.

People, like agreements, should be flexible and should be allowed to change when presented with new/more/different ideas or opinions. We shouldn't be so rigid that seven instances of something that will happen hundreds or thousands of times over the life of the server should set the standard for everyone to follow.

If we who want to roll are not willing to make some of those exact same compromises how can be claim to be any better than they are? If we are to be champions for the people, should we not be champions for ALL of the people? Even when our views differ from theirs?

[loramin]

I'm saying that 100% of people agreeing to roll because that's what WE'VE told them to do is different than people agreeing that shady should be handled by a roll. The people who want to click have made great compromises and concessions for the people that want to roll so that the pro-roll crowd can do shady as they want. Mostly because they were bullied into doing so by some of the people there, including me at one point. I'm ashamed that I used such tactics to try and bring people over to my side of thinking. There's a different between agreeing with someone and just going along with someone.

You're 100% correct: like I said, it's almost as if it's impossible to make all the people happy all the time. It is noble to hear and listen to everyone's opinion, but not all opinions are right. If you truly don't believe that, please write me a one page essay on how the Saudi Arabian Prince's opinion that it was ok to brutally murder that Khasheegi guy was actually correct ;)

Again, there is nothing different between Shady and Scout except variance. For MONTHS now everyone has agreed to roll on Scout (in much larger groups than at the Shady roll). Does that mean that every last person on P99 is happy with the Scout roll? OF COURSE NOT! Virtually every time anyone posts about Scout someone (or multiple someones) in the forums chime in about how the roll sucks.

But that does not mean we should throw out the Scout roll! It doesn't even mean we should alter it. I'll keep repeating it until you get it: this is not just an "everyone is right" situation. Rolls are objectively more fair. If they weren't, you would never have everyone agreeing to them, with Shady or with Scout.

In fact:

I'm saying that 100% of people agreeing to roll because that's what WE'VE told them

I don't think you meant it this way, but there's a level of egotism in that statement. Like all those people at every Scout roll (we're talking about literally hundreds of players) all gave up their conscious thought and chose to do something only because someone told them to? NO! They do it because the community agreed it's the most fair system, and the community agreed to that because it IS the most fair system.

People, like agreements, should be flexible and should be allowed to change when presented with new/more/different ideas or opinions. We shouldn't be so rigid that seven instances of something that will happen hundreds or thousands of times over the life of the server should set the standard for everyone to follow.

Ok, in magical fairy land we can experiment with all sorts of agreements and try and find the magical one that makes everyone happy all the time.

But in the real world (or at least the fantasy fairy land of P99) if enough players stop agreeing to any agreement, that agreement ends. No matter how hard you worked to get rolls established, no matter how much you want rolls 5 days out of the week, if you convince just one player to break the existing agreement you could ruin all rolls, for everyone, forever. And if you convince enough players, you GUARANTEE that that will happen. Why are you refusing to understand this?

You don't just get to try every system out that you want. We all had one shot with Shady, and if the system we established had failed it would have fucked up all future chances of any system. Luckily for the server, you were an entirely different person a week ago, and instead of working to destroy the system, you worked to create it. For the first few days it was incredibly fragile, but now it's been going on long enough that if one lone loser breaks it there's a very good chance the staff will punish them. But again, if you convince enough people to abandon the agreement, everything you and everyone else has worked so hard for goes out the window. Quite possibly forever.

If we who want to roll are not willing to make some of those exact same compromises how can be claim to be any better than they are? If we are to be champions for the people, should we not be champions for ALL of the people? Even when our views differ from theirs?

Very, very easily. You've fallen into the trap of believing everyone's opinion is equally valid. They are not. Again, if every opinion was equally valid Scout would never have gotten off the ground, let alone been wildly successful for months. Again, there have always been people unhappy with the Scout roll ... but that doesn't matter, because not everyone's opinion is right! If you use Autofire and/or have super low latency, you have a million times better chance of winning a Scout/Shady turn-in. In no universe is that fair, but that won't stop Autofire/low latency users from wanting a system that benefits themselves.

Scout is by far the most fair system, for everyone. It doesn't matter if not everyone is happy with it, because no system will ever make everyone happy. By definition people with unfair advantage won't want to play in a fair system; that does not mean it's "unfair" to ignore their opinion! And even if that wasn't true, it would still be impossible to make everyone happy: even if Rogean showed up in-game like Oprah and started handing out Shady rings ("here's a ring for you, and you, and ...") that still would cheese a lot of people off.

But there absolutely is 100% objectively more fair systems and less fair systems. Clicking is less fair, rolling is more. This basic logic has enabled literally hundreds of successful scout rolls without a single click, and just to repeat it once more: everything about Shady is the exact same as Scout, except the variance. If you truly think you've invented a fairer system than the one adopted by the hundreds of people involved in all of those rolls, and you truly feel that your "fairer" system is fairer because it gives a voice to people who want an unfair advantage over everyone else, and if you're willing to destroy the completely and actually fair system that everyone else involved has already agreed to just to get what you want ... fuck.

[Senescant]

You've fallen into the trap of believing everyone's opinion is equally valid. They are not.

We'll have to agree to disagree for now. On many of these topics.

I don't believe that bullying people into a singular option when other options are available is the right path to take. Nor do we have the authority to do that. You and I alone are not "the players". Changes have been made to this agreement so far, by me, with the consult of the people who have made their opinions known both publicly and privately, and changes can continue to be made if people see fit.

[loramin]

P.S. Obviously I feel passionately about this, and obviously I'm fighting you very hard, but to be clear: I do think it's incredibly noble and good that you are not just assuming your opinion is right, and that it should be forced on others. That's an incredibly good place to be coming from, and I don't want my defense to be misunderstood: everyone should always question things the way you are.

I'm just saying, while all of the above is true and good, and while we are subjective humans with subjective opinions ... there are still right and wrong opinions also, and objectively fair and unfair systems also.

[loramin]

We'll have to agree to disagree for now. On many of these topics.

I don't believe that bullying people into a singular option when other options are available is the right path to take. Nor do we have the authority to do that. Changes have been made to this agreement so far, by me, with the consult of the people who have made their opinions known, and changes can continue to be made if people see fit.

All civilized laws are bullying people. Strong people would like to be able to punch weak people whenever they feel like it, because they know the weak people won't fight back. But we "bully" those strong people in to a system that's fair for everyone (ie. no punching people unless they punch you first).

"Bullying" a few anti-community people to play nice with the rest of the community (ie. "bullying" to establish a fair system for everyone) is the measure of civilization: it's not a bad thing, and quite honestly it's strange that you think it is.

[Senescant]

Well, given the opportunity to speak up for themselves, no one wanted to click today. The roll continues for another day.

I was quite surprised given that a few of the people here were staunch advocates for clicking, but either they didn't have the gumption to speak up or they've changed their minds.

[Alanus]

Siryado ninja turned in to Shady Goblin. I hope his neckbeard ass gets blacklisted

[Litharian]

https://youtu.be/Hkk9ycj9ieo

[aaezil]

see ya siryado

[Senescant]

Just because the description is kinda throwing ol' chunkerz under the bus...

https://i.imgur.com/KgCMg5U.jpg?1

[Triangle]

Any GM presence? I see he is logged in now. Not that I expect instant results, but there was a clear player agreement that he violated.

[Senescant]

[Mon Feb 18 15:00:08 2019] Siryado says, 'roll when it pop'
[Mon Feb 18 15:00:13 2019] Siryado says, 'pray u dont get fucked oer'
Mon Feb 18 15:03:30 2019] Siryado says, 'weer fcking rolling'
[Mon Feb 18 15:36:34 2019] Siryado says, 'were rolling if floppin wins we all reroll'
[Mon Feb 18 15:43:51 2019] Siryado says, 'i got two chances to win'
[Mon Feb 18 15:43:55 2019] Siryado says, 'my rol and flopins rol'

[ZiggyTheMuss]

All civilized laws are bullying people. Strong people would like to be able to punch weak people whenever they feel like it, because they know the weak people won't fight back. But we "bully" those strong people in to a system that's fair for everyone (ie. no punching people unless they punch you

You are fucking weird bro

[Swish2]

https://i.imgur.com/dOqnVA3.png

[Senescant]

That's just not dragging the cursor over enough swish. Thanks for contributing. How's red. Empty? Shocked.

[natescraigslist]

wait so whene eryone said clickfest they were lying? cause this is a clickfest... look at the wiki all teh names listed under clickfest?

[Wikipedia]

lol @ probably getting a ban for a 20 hp upgrade.

[ReadOnly]

Daily rolling is dumb. Do a roll once a week, say Sunday, top 7 numbers get Sunday through Saturday. Then you don't have to sit at a mob every day

[kotton05]

lol @ probably getting a ban for a 20 hp upgrade.

Lol at waiting to roll. Siryado is the only man I see in this thread. You all make me sick.

[Alde]

Lol at waiting to roll. Siryado is the only man I see in this thread. You all make me sick.

If you call someone a man who's talking about sucking d%ck$ and stuff for an hour, agreeing to roll and then finally ninja turning in to fuck over 30 other players, yeah he's a real man, just like most of the forum trolls posting here.

[kotton05]

Yea he isn’t some bitch who’s gonna listen to sirfloppin. So yea he’s a man. siryado you doing gods work rustling these incels.

[aaezil]

good thread/idea starting to decay due to trolls both in game and on forums huh... Do moderators/gms exist anymore?

[spanky_kc]

No surprise to see Merkk being a troll. I did not want to roll in the beginning but figure it was best for everyone so it would not turn into an autofire mess. At least he will torture the next set of people at the angry goblin if he's still around. Not shocked to see the most mentally unstable person in p99 break the roll agreement tho.

[kotton05]

No surprise to see Merkk being a troll. I did not want to roll in the beginning but figure it was best for everyone so it would not turn into an autofire mess. At least he will torture the next set of people at the angry goblin if he's still around. Not shocked to see the most mentally unstable person in p99 break the roll agreement tho.

Figured it’s for the best when your name is at the front yea I would too. 2bad I’m killing these mobs as soon as they spawn.

[rebeccablack]

you guys will have more luck with a roll once the autofire people get their quests done and theres no longer any incentive not to handle this like adults

[Triiz]

I like how in the video after several seconds he slowly tried to melt back into the crowd lol.

[loramin]

you guys will have more luck with a roll once the autofire people get their quests done and theres no longer any incentive not to handle this like adults

At this point it's not about luck, it's about the staff. Either they enforce the agreement and punish a player who stole the mob after everyone rolled fairly, providing all the incentive anyone needs to act civicilized ... or they don't, and thus tacitly endorse a clickfest. If the staff wants a clickfest (and I just can't understand why they would, when it seems like way more CS work, but hey it's their server), there's nothing any of us can do about it, so again everything is on them at this point.

[Bbeta]

At this point it's not about luck, it's about the staff. Either they enforce the agreement and punish a player who stole the mob after everyone rolled fairly, providing all the incentive anyone needs to act civicilized ... or they don't, and thus tacitly endorse a clickfest. If the staff wants a clickfest, there's nothing any of us can do about it, so again everything is on them at this point.

Jesus dude. Wait till u actually win. Angry will enlighten you or break you

[loramin]

What you wrote:
Jesus dude. Wait till u actually win. Angry will enlighten you or break you

What I read:
I think I'm so much tougher and cooler than you are because I won a clickfest for Shady before the roll got established!

[Alanus]

I like how in the video after several seconds he slowly tried to melt back into the crowd lol.

Yeah, it was so obvious he did it. He was only one to be at the goblin. Then the text happens. Then he moved back and logged out.

Such a disrespectful piece of crap neckbeard. Everyone should excommunicate him

[Bbeta]

What you wrote:


What I read:

I'm just saying, be ready for angry goblins

[natescraigslist]

Bro u got walmarts banned for training and boxing in hate. How many 30days have u caught for training in hate? So you just come up with a rule that suits you and the whole server is supposed to act like your the boss? Pretty sure most people dislike you, thays why u had to get your name changed to floppin from sirflopin because your reputation is so bad you literaly couldent go anywere without people saying something about how u trained them over an earthstaff again and again.. please find somone else to bother man this is getting old..

[Alanus]

Bro u got walmarts banned for training and boxing in hate. How many 30days have u caught for training in hate? So you just come up with a rule that suits you and the whole server is supposed to act like your the boss? Pretty sure most people dislike you, thays why u had to get your name changed to floppin from sirflopin because your reputation is so bad you literaly couldent go anywere without people saying something about how u trained them over an earthstaff again and again.. please find somone else to bother man this is getting old..

Go fuck off. You just shit on the 30+ people who decided to roll by turning it in while everyone else was back rolling, because you feel your pixels are more important than others. I hope you lose the Warlord fight and have to do this all over again.

[Twochain]

Bro u got walmarts banned for training and boxing in hate. How many 30days have u caught for training in hate? So you just come up with a rule that suits you and the whole server is supposed to act like your the boss? Pretty sure most people dislike you, thays why u had to get your name changed to floppin from sirflopin because your reputation is so bad you literaly couldent go anywere without people saying something about how u trained them over an earthstaff again and again.. please find somone else to bother man this is getting old..

Siryado, why did you even come back to play? I remember dying laughing, because I came across you accusing guilds of conspiring against you for no reason, leaving poor Siryado locked out of raid content ...

ON A RANDOM YOUTUBE VIDEO.

LMFAO

You'll never raid on p99 again. Why come back? I have so many questions
How much PCP do you smoke?
What kind of mental gymnastics do you do before posting retarded shit like this?
Do you realize your monk will still suck ass even after getting a Spirit Wracked Cord?
Is English your second language? That has to be a yes right? What's your first language?
Is it aids?

[aaezil]

Well if staff decides to play the do nothing about enforcing player agreements on this quest it will be quite satisfying to just steal the warlord in front of Siryado. Or if staff do hold him accountable he's banned and wont have to worry about him scumming up angry goblin as well. Win/Win either way, really.

[Dogma]

What Siryado did is similar to someone stealing fungi tunic from their group after not winning the roll for it. Looted and left.

No one here should be defending him.

If you don't like how the group is cooperatively sharing the content, you have a whole server to explore. But you shouldn't steal from the group.

[Senescant]

So we going to start rolling at the 24h mark and winner waits it out?

[White_knight]

What a first world problem "anti-rollers".

Soon we will have anti-vaccers or soemthing.


(P.s. this is a load response, please don't take it seriously)

[zodium]

What a first world problem "anti-rollers".

Soon we will have anti-vaccers or soemthing.


(P.s. this is a load response, please don't take it seriously)

Rolling .. causes autism?

[kotton05]

Bro u got walmarts banned for training and boxing in hate. How many 30days have u caught for training in hate? So you just come up with a rule that suits you and the whole server is supposed to act like your the boss? Pretty sure most people dislike you, thays why u had to get your name changed to floppin from sirflopin because your reputation is so bad you literaly couldent go anywere without people saying something about how u trained them over an earthstaff again and again.. please find somone else to bother man this is getting old..

Yado , sirfloppin is a huge hypocrit and very scummy. Poor guy has most of his validation for living in this game.

So glad you cucked this shitter and I plan on insta killing the rest of the spawns to pay honor to siryado.

[Senescant]

Further discussion has lead to the conclusion that:
Rolling after it spawns sucks.
Solution:
Rolling at the 24h mark.
People were on board with this before, but a few loud QQers were opposed.

Right now it seems to be spawning between 24h and 28h after turn in.
The issue for now until the unclassic variance is fixed is the reporting of the time that its turned in. Ideally whoever wins would report that, either by posting here or can shoot myself, kelz, loramin, someone else that posts here a tell with the time. If it isn't reported we'd just show up at the previous days time.

Thoughts?

[Bbeta]

Merkk, what happened to you?

[Rang]

Poor guy has most of his validation for living in this game.

https://i.imgur.com/4PgfagO.jpg

[Kelzar]

Problems with preroll are:

1) Guy A wins roll, he waits for 00 to 200 minutes for the pop. During that period of time from 0 to X amount of people logs in, ask for the rules and they may like, dislike, agree or disagree.

Yes, thats like now, but in a preroll, that "winner" will be possibly alone, arguing with whoever logs later and wants to fight that "preRoll" agreement, so he will be possibly in minority in the situation of a dispute happened

2) People can abuse the system, by simply rolling at the pre established time and, if losing, coming later with another toon/toons and try to find the situation 1) listed above.

3) The most simplified you offer a quest, the more populated it will become. Doing a preroll will cause that the amount of people rolling goes from X to X2 at very least. And that not only affect this current event, but also the next bottle neck.

The prime example is Scout Charisa. At her current state, Charisa is just an alt-toon park place, where hundreds of people park their toons, to log in for 1 minute every 10 hours, hit /random and camp out.

Thats not the way for quests to be, imho. You want it, you work it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So current system might not be perfect, as I dont even personally like it, but it gives the people in there the security of that there is a "present majority" who actually agrees with the agreement which they talk about.

The only missing thing, at the current state, is that some GM gives a yes vote or a support to how its being done. Players are agreeing, players are "mostly" being respecfull, the only missing part is the support of those who rule this, so that we dont convert that place with 30 guys daily into the hunger games cuz of the lack of support in the agreements, we, players, do.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TLDR: Keep rolling on pop, 5 seconds. GMs halp. GG.

[Senescant]

People can abuse the current system by just turning in kelz. What's the difference. I think given the option none of the people currently there would abuse it, and new people would just be educated on the way it works. They can fight the current roll agreement saying they don't agree with that either. But people don't.

Its great that some people can sleep through the window at their computer with their Gina blairing for a roll or that they don't mind looking at a wall for 0-4 hours a day. But not everyone wants to handle it that way.

The current system is pretty shitty at the moment. If more people agree to preroll than roll on pop we'll make it the agreement, just like we did with rolling. If people break that agreement then they'll be petitioned, just like we previously did. If GMs don't enforce the agreement then it'll just fall apart. If people state they don't agree or don't want to be part of the agreement...we'll see what happens.

I have people already telling me their abandoning the roll. So there's that too.

[loramin]

I'll do it if everyone else agrees ... but I'd give a snowball's chance in hell to it succeeding.

Senescant you seem ... optimistic (to put it mildly) about your ability to convince 20+ people (changing every day) to agree to anything that's not the absolute simplest solution possible. I can only attribute it to a lack of experience on this server, and while I keep trying to impress the point on you, you keep ignoring it and dreaming up new complicated schemes to fail with.

Again, I'm not saying I'm against it, and I will join if everyone else does too ... but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that will never happen.

But on the plus side, at least this idea doesn't threaten to destroy the entire agreement like your last one, so that's good :)

[kotton05]

Merkk, what happened to you?

Nothing yet I got about 30+ toons ready to fuck this whole thing up then I’ll prolly get suspended or something.

[TheSurgeon]

Dueling for slots on a list just sound so much better.

[Kelzar]

I will personally not agree with a preRoll.

It is a very weak option, with not the aim to solve the current problems, but just to make it at least "easier" or "efortless"

The "price" a preRoll would have, would be so big that I can´t even imagine why or which are the reasons for some people, as you, to propose it.

The only current problem, is people who doesnt honour or respect the agreement which other 20-30 people do. But I personally believe, that GMs, once they see the situation, will take cards into it and make a choice or movement.


The worst thing "we" can do, is try to overcomplicate the system by pretending to change the rules drastically every day. It works, let it go. It was mainly you, Senescant, the person who was pushing hardly in forums and in game tells the people to get the roll system. We have it now, just dont try to make it worse.

[Senescant]

The simplest solution is a clickfest. That's where we're currently headed back to. I'm trying to make this less painful for everyone, as many people have stated would rather not poopsock a roll.

A preroll isn't complicated. People show up, they roll, winner wins, winner socks. Many people have stated they'd be ok with that. If that's complicated for you then there may be something wrong with you.

Also don't be fooled by the account's born on date. This is forum account #3...

@Kelz. What "price". What are you talking about. Please be specific. I get you like to poopsock and/or sleep at your computer with your gina trigger, but not everyone else is on board with that.

[Dogma]

This. Scout has been so nice since it transitioned to a roll.
I don't get why you champion for change constantly. You wanted a roll and got it, now you want a clickfest.

[Senescant]

I don't get why you champion for change constantly. You wanted a roll and got it, now you want a clickfest.

You obviously failed to comprehend what I wrote. That is not what I want. I want this to be done as intelligently as the community can.

[azeth]

Pre-roll is the worst imaginable idea and I personally will not participate in it.

The roll will occur within minutes of the spawn or on the spawn, or this is absurd.

You are severely underestimating the value of simplicity.

[Dogma]

Progress is made whenever progress can be kept. Let's not walk in circles.

[Senescant]

Ok, we'll see what people in game think about it.

Simplicity and intelligently are two different things. But why people think rolling at a set time is difficult is beyond me. /shrug.

[loramin]

But why people think rolling at a set time is difficult is beyond me. /shrug.

Because we've played on this server.

I swear, I'm not a cynic, I'm an optimist (there's no way I could have invested so much time in the wiki if I wasn't) ... but I'm a realist first, and more than half a decade here has taught me that player agreements are incredibly hard to make happen, and they only ever succeed when they are dead simple.

[Wonkie]

preroll is bad because it diminishes the feeling you've accomplished something by socking

[azeth]

But why people think rolling at a set time is difficult is beyond me. /shrug.

because this idea is wildly open ended with obvious flaws. The most obvious of them is - Person X isn't an everyday forum user shows up to camp Shady after the designated roll time. How does that conversation transpire when you say, "sorry roll was 5 hours ago" and they respond "I was at work..."

[loramin]

preroll is bad because it diminishes the feeling you've accomplished something by socking

ROFL, and there's that.

Seriously though, if I could wave a magic wand that let me institute a system of my choice (but not change the spawn time; it's a shitty magic wand) I would make pre-roll the standard. My point is not that it's great to sit there for hours waiting and that I like doing it.

My point is, this is P99, and we don't have a magic wand.

[Senescant]

Roll at set time. Winner turns in. Pretty simple.

I would argue as simple as our current roll within 5 seconds. But whatever...

Hope someone Siryado's it again today. Can claim they don't agree with the current agreement.

/shrug

Person X isn't an everyday forum user shows up to camp Shady after the designated roll time. How does that conversation transpire when you say, "sorry roll was 5 hours ago" and they respond "I was at work..."

Explain to them how it works, they show up tomorrow.

[azeth]

Roll at set time. Winner turns in. Pretty simple.

I would argue as simple as our current roll within 5 seconds. But whatever...

So I guess Ill take vacation time from work to pre-roll for something that will spawn after I would have returned home from work...

How do you not see the flaw here? It's like your kitchen's on fire and you're still taking orders

[kotton05]

Pre roll is only good if you’re talking about marijuana ciggerettes

[Wonkie]

ROFL, and there's that.

Seriously though, if I could wave a magic wand that let me institute a system of my choice (but not change the spawn time; it's a shitty magic wand) I would make pre-roll the standard. My point is not that it's great to sit there for hours waiting and that I like doing it.

My point is, this is P99, and we don't have a magic wand.

i agree, good things simply aren't possible.

[azeth]

i agree, good things simply aren't possible.

That's too far as well. Ultimately you just need to sew up the if/thens and the system will work.

When it spawns... roll. What is fucking easier than that? If someone decides to be a dick, how is that reflective of the system? How does pre-rolling prevent someone from clickfesting?

[Dogma]

Would have to keep a running forum post of the updated roll times. It advances forward a couple hours every day.

If rolled at start of window I can see that being fair but it's hard to keep people advised of that changing window. It's not like 8 ring or Scout.

[kotton05]

When it spawns I’m one shotting it then logging it out. Idk bout you but I needed faction.

[loramin]

i agree, good things simply aren't possible.

No, but good complex things that twenty or so rotating humans all have to agree to, when all twenty of those humans have a strong incentive to break the system if it gives them an advantage, aren't possible ... or at the very least are incredibly difficult and unlikely.

This isn't (just) some philosophical claim on the nature of Man (with a capital M) ... this is the reality/legacy of numerous failed player agreements here. Even just on this one case of Shady, in under a month, we've seen a couple of failed attempts to complicate the system. I'm not saying they were bad proposals (well the "let's go back to a clickfest some of the time" idea was bad), but good or bad doesn't enter in to it if you don't first consider what people will/won't agree to.

[Senescant]

We've seen 2-3 people on the forums push things down. I'll try ingame tonight when we have a better grasp of how more people feels about it.

[Senescant]

Also grats Kelz on your SWC! Guess we won't see you at shady today. MQ confirmed working.

[loramin]

We've seen 2-3 people on the forums push things down. I'll try ingame tonight when we have a better grasp of how more people feels about it.

You tried pushing the clickfest idea in-game (hard), and it still failed. You are not Shady Goblin Jesus. You are not the person responsible for trying to make everything Shady Goblin-related perfect.

We established a good, fair, and simple system. You were a big part of it. Congrats.

Now sit back on your laurels and wait for Shady like everyone else. Stop trying to think you can magically convince twenty rotating people to all agree to to whatever latest harebrained scheme you've come up with that you haven't even taken the time to work the flaws out of.

It's like you've completely ignored/forgotten everything that ever happened before. Scout didn't just happen. People spent countless forum posts arguing over how the roll should work. The very idea of it, and exactly how it should work, was "battle-tested" there. Then it was further tested in months of in-game arguments. It was only after all that that everyone finally agreed to the roll.

The only reason Shady went so much smoother was because we had the example of Scout, and because the roll was all but identical to the Scout roll (just with added variance). When you keep trying to push other schemes you're not doing any of that, yet you keep pushing and failing.

[Senescant]

I pushed for the sake of those that had QQ'd to me for days about it, they wouldn't speak up, so I gave it up.

Calling a system where two dozen people sit around for 3 hours good is idiotic, but being that you spend that time boasting about your drug use I guess you make good use of that time.

I've been putting out ideas that others have supported to try and make this better. I don't need to convince everyone, if we have a majority group that wants to pre-roll then that is what we'll do. I don't care if that's not what you want Loramin. I'm willing to see if that's what the majority of people want.

[loramin]

Calling a system where two dozen people sit around for 3 hours good is idiotic

It's a million times better than a clickfest, but you're completely forgetting that and letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I don't need to convince everyone, if we have a majority group that wants to pre-roll then that is what we'll do.

Actually you do. That's how agreements work here: it's not a democracy. If five people want to click and twenty-five want to roll, it doesn't matter: the staff will not punish those people for clicking (and again, all you have to do is look at Scout for proof).

being that you spend that time boasting about your drug use I guess you make good use of that time
...
I don't care if that's not what you want Loramin. I'm willing to see if that's what the majority of people want.

Annnd here come the personal attacks. Look, waiting for a roll is long and boring, so I decided to try acid once. I mentioned I was on acid maybe three times ever in-game, and afterwards I even admitted it was a bad idea (plus my wife got mad at me when I couldn't read anymore because of the acid and I kept making her come read the chat box to see if people had rolled yet). But one bad idea on one day of rolling hardly invalidates the points I'm making.

And don't lie: you don't care about about what people want: if you did you'd be trying to fix the problems in your hare-brained scheme instead of arguing with the people (people who aren't me) who point them out.

Oh, and also, you're a terrible reader. I've said multiple times I'd prefer a system where I don't have to wait. But, as you keep failing to understand, regardless of you, and regardless me, that system will not happen.

EDIT: Honestly dude, go read the scout thread. Right now. I'm serious. If you don't, it's the height of arrogance: you have a template of almost this exact situation, with tons of players chiming in with FAR more opinions than in this thread, and with staff getting involved, and you're completely ignoring it in the belief that you know better about everything.

[Senescant]

The current system isn't good. People put up with it because you sit and shame them into it for 3 hours a day. I don't think the current system is much better than a clickfest at all due to the variance.

[Senescant]

Actually you do. That's how agreements work here: it's not a democracy. If five people want to click and twenty-five want to roll, it doesn't matter: the staff will not punish those people for clicking (and again, all you have to do is look at Scout for proof).

If it's not a democracy then why would the opinions of the 25 outweigh the 5? If 15 people want to pre-roll and 10 people don't, why wouldn't we pre-roll? Because you said so?

Not everyone agree'd that rolling was the way to go, but they rolled because the majority wanted to roll.

Until staff comes out and says "here's the way we want to see it done" changes can be made if people want them.

This isn't the same as scout due to the variance, it doesn't need to be handled in the exact same way if people want to do things differently. If people want to poopsock and roll then sure, but just because 2 people here say "oh its a bad idea because of reasons x/y/z" doesn't mean other people aren't entitled to their opinions on the matter.

[loramin]

If it's not a democracy then why would the opinions of the 25 outweigh the 5? If 15 people want to pre-roll and 10 people don't, why wouldn't we pre-roll? Because you said so?

No, because that's how things work here. God you are full of yourself: don't listen to me, fine, but listen to SOMEONE besides yourself. Go read the damn Scout thread!

The current system isn't good. People put up with it because you sit and shame them into it for 3 hours a day. I don't think the current system is much better than a clickfest at all due to the variance.

Then you're an idiot, and you just admitted it to the forum. Clickfests are completely unfair and give a huge advantage to people with low latency and/or Autofire-like capabilities. You're literally saying you don't see why a fair system is much better than unfair one.

I'm done with you, at least until you go read Scout thread.

[Senescant]

Fair and better aren't the same thing Loramin. Obviously being fair is overall better than being unfair, but just because the roll is fair doesn't mean its head and shoulders better.

Feel free to post what from the scout thread you feel is relevant. As one of the people who helped to make scout a roll, I continue to point out that they are different situations due to the variance.

[loramin]

Fair and better aren't the same thing Loramin. Obviously being fair is overall better than being unfair, but just because the roll is fair doesn't mean its head and shoulders better.

Feel free to post what from the scout thread you feel is relevant. As one of the people who helped to make scout a roll, I continue to point out that they are different situations due to the variance.

I'd respond by pointing out that your claim to being involved with Scout is directly contradicted (or at least made very confusing) by your belief that a majority of players can enforce their will on the rest of the players (despite evidence during the Scout mess that proved exactly that to be false) ... but like I said I'm done with you.

Think of this as me doing the forum thing where I quote "This user's message isn't shown because they are on your ignore list." Because we all know that even the people who actually do that don't really put those people on ignore :)

[Not_Mikeo]

Pre-roll!

[Dogma]

Shouldn't confuse people being open to alternative systems if the majority agree with them suggesting that they're unhappy with the current system. Unnamed supposed masses mind you.

Fact is that there's a healthy showing at this point and all those attending since the adoption of a roll system have agreed to the roll.

[Senescant]

It’s many of the people that are there that have said we should find a way to pre-roll. If most of the people there want to do that then why wouldn’t we?

[Senescant]

I’m suggesting we roll when the assumed window opens, 24h after turn in. Most people aren’t at work at 12:30am tonight...

Those with jobs could roll and go on with their evenings if they’d like. If anything it’s a boon for the casual/working player.

[Senescant]

It’ll be 9:30 for me. Huzzah for time zones. And variance will move the window throughout the day. Sorry your argument against was a poor one.

[Wonkie]

pretty good allegory of the liberal/leftist slapfight in america right now

am i using that word correctly? allegory?

[Duane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqJ5gKZNkuY