Request for a different policy on (game-changing) specific item camps [Archive]

DoucLangur

04-14-2011, 03:37 PM

I'll try to be brief and give a good example: Droga, Locket camp and Circlet of Shadow camp.

Situation: A guild keeps the camp locked down. People in zone can not get in queue even though they could even solo the camp. Instead, the guild group calls in reinforcements and works shifts on the camp.

Suggested resolution: Make it server-policy that (game changing) item camps have to establish a queue system. If someone is in zone that wants in line, the group/person camping the item can not pass the camp on to anyone else first, guild or not guild.

Reason: People without a guild, or guilds not big (or crazy) enough to keep a camp locked will not get a chance on the camp until whoever has it locked grows tired of it. At the same time, people in that guild do not have to invest any single minute in the zone without actually being in the camp.

I find that highly unfair, disrupting the game atmosphere and worthy of implementing a different policy. Such camp behaviour did not occur on classic (not to this extent for sure) because people did not know all drops so well in advance.

So, to our admins/GMs, please take a moment to think about it.

Best Regards,

Slozem

Splooie

04-14-2011, 03:45 PM

Competition makes this game fun imo.

baalzy

04-14-2011, 03:47 PM

It's not a competition with the current ruleset. Person A can claim a camp, Person B shows up and wants to take the camp when Person A is done. However, Person A gets tired and instead of handing the camp to Person B he calls in his friend, Person C, who then takes the camp. Person C was able to do whatever the hell they wanted up until taking over the camp, while Person B just gets shit on.

I seriously think the rules in general should be setup so that hand offs of camps should go to whoever was in line the longest afterwards.

ChairmanMauzer

04-14-2011, 03:52 PM

Interesting idea but I have no idea how you'd enforce it.

Vendar

04-14-2011, 03:57 PM

Massive Marc

04-14-2011, 04:04 PM

Vendar

04-14-2011, 04:05 PM

Joining a guild wouldn't help this situation.

join one of the guilds poopsocking the camp.

better?

maegi

04-14-2011, 04:15 PM

stop crying and join a guild, or wait til they leave/wipe/fall sleep

it takes mucho dedication to lock down a camp 24/7 . sorry that you can just have everything you want exactly when u want it. go cry somewhere else.

part of the reason you join a guild is to get access to mobs/items that you wouldnt be able to access on your own. play better ;)

and also, i doubt anyone is just showing up getting the item and leaving. that would only piss off everyone else thats been putting in time to lock down the camp. your just mad i think

That's a big load of bullshit and it's a stupid statement and calling waiting competition like another poster above you did is just as stupid. It doesn't take skill to wait and it's not fun either. Join a guild? Really? Really dude? My wife and I held the ancient croc for 47 hours a few months back , not to be dicks but to get 2 lousy sets of gatorscale leggings. Point being that we're only 2 people. People waiting in line for the camp were not less skilled and didn't enjoy the competition. It's pointless, like your post was.

Chrushev

04-14-2011, 04:17 PM

If I get to the camp, and there is a queue, im taking the camp when its my turn... a person cant come after me and claim the camp no matter who's friend they are..

eqravenprince

04-14-2011, 04:22 PM

Dfn

04-14-2011, 04:24 PM

Enable PvP, Enable pro-train policy.

Problem solved.

Daldaen

04-14-2011, 04:36 PM

Ravhin

04-14-2011, 04:48 PM

On raid mobs I think they should have a whoever does the most DPS gets the loot, regardless of stupid "who engaged first" bullshit.

Funny, I was just today thinking the exact opposite thing. Since the rule is, in fact, first to engage, then they should simply remove the ">50% damage gets the kill" code and make it "whoever is first on the agro list" gets the exp+loot right, no matter who actually kills it.

Not so much incentive to steal other people's pulls anymore (TT hunter/forager nonsense) and FTE rule for raid mobs is automatically enforced, no need for GM intervention.

maegi

04-14-2011, 05:00 PM

If I get to the camp, and there is a queue, im taking the camp when its my turn... a person cant come after me and claim the camp no matter who's friend they are..

Even though I agree with you, that's not how it works. Or more precisely, "when it's your turn" I suppose is what's being debated here. It's not your turn till whoever has said camp is finished and passes it to you. If they want to keep it they can unless they leave die or zone. Ran into that at ancient cyclops in OOT, we were supposed to be "next in queue" and were actually present in OOT waiting, guy got the spawn, looted his ring and stayed there. When we asked why he wasn't moving he said cuz his friend was taking over. His friend didn't get there for another hour, so I petitioned not knowing the rules. Always assumed you looted what you came for and moved on. Not so.

Vendar

04-14-2011, 05:04 PM

That's a big load of bullshit and it's a stupid statement and calling waiting competition like another poster above you did is just as stupid. It doesn't take skill to wait and it's not fun either. Join a guild? Really? Really dude? My wife and I held the ancient croc for 47 hours a few months back , not to be dicks but to get 2 lousy sets of gatorscale leggings. Point being that we're only 2 people. People waiting in line for the camp were not less skilled and didn't enjoy the competition. It's pointless, like your post was.

cry more. i never said skill, i said dedication. L2Read

Dfn

04-14-2011, 05:04 PM

Down with competition!

moklianne

04-14-2011, 05:07 PM

mwatt

04-14-2011, 05:16 PM

I agree that the current situation is untenable. What these guilds are dong is greedy and mean-spirited, made more so because one of the items that is locked down is not going to be available forever. It's a bad, selfish attitude being shown here. It almost smacks of PVP type behavior within PVE constraints. Some of the justification given by those that support it sounds just like that.

The first thing that should be done is that the reputations of these guilds should be considered tarnished. The last thing that should be done is enacting any rules that require more work or attention on the part of the GMs. Somewhere in between these two extremes lies the best answer. The suggestion of the OP is not bad, but it may end up more work and more headache for GMs.

I think GMS and those that are currently "locked out" are just mostly hoping that the guilds will get tired of this and it will become a non-problem. If they do not cease this well before the COS will be nerfed, then I anticipate confrontations that GMS will get dragged into anyway - then nobody is gonna be happy.

Something does need to change, and it needs to change pretty soon. This is not "classic behavior" in our beloved classic game. What's more it runs contrary to the spirit of cooperative MMORPGs that EQ is supposed to embody.

Kika Maslyaka

04-14-2011, 05:21 PM

On raid mobs I think they should have a whoever does the most DPS gets the loot, regardless of stupid "who engaged first" bullshit.

Remove the right to petition over these matters, GMs ban people who don't follow that rule.

Would solve a lot of bullshit in my opinion. That is more 'fun' competition than anything else.

Guilds locking down a camp is lame from the outside and awesome when its your guild doing it (until you've done several shifts then it gets lame)

Basically, that camp will be there for another 6months, come back another time is the best I can tell you. I've been after a few different camps for awhile and the same people are always camping them, meh :/.

this is so not gonna work =)

Lets take any complex encounter with adds (yeah beyond the classic tank and spank).
So guild A starts the raid, and starts doing it in accordance with a proper strategy, of moving the raid target here, moving adds there etc.
The guild B shows up, while guild A is busy taking care of adds, they storm in, burn down the boss, loot, and gate out, while guild A is STILL working on the adds =)

Official rules on LIVE were btw, that if anyone shows up at your camp you were OBLIGATED to SHARE. Otherwise, Gm would appear and make you share, or kick you out. =)
Of course we don't have nowhere near paid GMs here to enforce this policy

JayDee

04-14-2011, 05:28 PM

mwatt

04-14-2011, 05:35 PM

That's why everquest just doesn't fit into a normal productive persons schedule. Unless you're a haggling trader, you have to invest a lot of time and find the right guild who farms the right spots and sacrifice RL responsibilities at time to attain the shit you want.

That's the general gist of things. Either deal with it or find a casual friendly game like Rift where you can log in at your leisure.

Words of wisdom from your friend, Jaydee.

There are elements of truth in what you say. However, your advice amounts to, "this sucks so just accept it". I don't buy that. Sure we can't change everything we don't like in this world, we can't even change MANY things that exist. However, that does not mean that some changes aren't worth the attempt. Things can be done to ease or ameliorate most problems. This particular issue is worth some attention.

Shiftin

04-14-2011, 05:51 PM

Seaweedpimp

04-14-2011, 05:57 PM

Littlegyno

04-14-2011, 06:00 PM

Solution to problem?

SLAY YOUR ENEMIES.

Kika Maslyaka

04-14-2011, 06:18 PM

best solution to KS was in EQ2 - once you pull something, the encounter would lock on you/your group/raid.
Anyone else who attempts to do damage to mob, will receive - "this target is invulnerable" message

Chrushev

04-14-2011, 06:24 PM

Kika Maslyaka

04-14-2011, 06:34 PM

i hated that about EQ2.

only a KSer/exploiter would hate that feature :p:p:p

beaon

04-14-2011, 06:44 PM

The solution is to ignore the items in question. They aren't worth your time/energy. You can be l33t without them. :)

only a KSer/exploiter would hate that feature :p:p:p

Complete non-sequitur.

mwatt

04-14-2011, 06:47 PM

If you knew what kind of coordination, persistence and intense time dedication it took to secure and hold something like the jade prod camp, there's no chance you could objectively say that anyone should be able to just walk up and get in line.

I must confess, the logic of your statement escapes me. You seem to be saying that if something is difficult to do, it justifies the result? That makes no sense to me.

Dfn

04-14-2011, 06:58 PM

Solution to problem?

SLAY YOUR ENEMIES.

Icaro

04-14-2011, 07:08 PM

Less farming, more action!

Rejuvenation

04-14-2011, 07:34 PM

I must confess, the logic of your statement escapes me. You seem to be saying that if something is difficult to do, it justifies the result? That makes no sense to me.

I think what he is saying is that the people put in effort and are more deserving for the items than you give credit.

Every guild participating in this has had to deal with other guilds doing the same. There isn't a single camp now that hasn't changed hands at least once, and they did what was necessary to reserve the camp next.

This is just one of those advantages of being in a large guild.

baalzy

04-14-2011, 07:44 PM

So people justify acting like dicks because other people may be acting like dicks too?

Lazortag

04-14-2011, 09:21 PM

Okay, a lot of really bad arguments were made in this thread.

People without a guild, or guilds not big (or crazy) enough to keep a camp locked will not get a chance on the camp until whoever has it locked grows tired of it. At the same time, people in that guild do not have to invest any single minute in the zone without actually being in the camp.

I find that highly unfair, ...

This is silly. Any large group of people among whom there's mutual trust can do the same thing, whether they identify as a guild or not. I think that establishing friendly relations with lots of people is something that ought to be encouraged in eq. I see no problem with the fact that the game rewards people who have connections, while punishing people who don't. This is a huge aspect of the game.

I agree that the current situation is untenable. What these guilds are dong is greedy and mean-spirited, made more so because one of the items that is locked down is not going to be available forever. ...

Realize that some people will never get access to a locket of escape, or a guise of the deceiver, or lustrous russet, etc. for a variety of reasons, one being that they may have just joined the server later than everybody else. What kind of warped sense of fairness is it that everyone should have an opportunity to get these items? That's nonsense. Live never had any guarantee like that. If something as small as joining the server earlier can be a legitimate means by which to gain an advantage over others, then how is it illegitimate that the rules privilege those who've worked to be trusted by hundreds of people with the same guild tag, something that's actually noteworthy?

The first thing that should be done is that the reputations of these guilds should be considered tarnished. ...

I think this is completely out of line. You need to actually prove that there's something condemnable about the behaviour of the guilds who hold the camp. You also need to show that it's impossible for someone not affiliated with these "Big Guilds" (tm) to ever get access to these camps. The camp in question has changed hands several times already. I'm pretty sure the guild that currently has it just found it unattended (unless I'm just remembering wrong), and did what anyone else would have done. Are you honestly saying that if you had 40 friends on project 1999 (guilded or otherwise) that you wouldn't prefer to keep such an important camp between them?

How long are locket/CoS going to be in the game anyway? From what I understand all of the people in this thread will have a chance to legitimately camp one before it gets taken out, making this a non-issue. Unless the concern is that you'll have to wait longer than the Big Guilds have to, but that seems kind of petty.

Vidar

04-14-2011, 09:26 PM

If I get to the camp, and there is a queue, im taking the camp when its my turn... a person cant come after me and claim the camp no matter who's friend they are..

^ /agree ^

Randy

04-14-2011, 09:50 PM

The community would have to dictate a policy like this, not the GMs.

Dumesh Uhl'Belk

04-14-2011, 10:02 PM

This is one of the many wonders of non-instanced content that make us blessed few love the game while infuriating the legion of casuals.

Games like EQ and EVE have so much more to the experience of playing them that just the pixels and the mechanics of your avatar. If you only play for the choice of which button to press to kill the monster in front of you, then you will be dissatisfied with EQ. It is a relatively simple game in that regard. WoW, Rift, and others have more buttons to press, prettier graphics for your avatar, and more varied and dynamic boss fights.

It is the competition for limited resources and the harsh penalties for failure that encourage the real "game" of EQ, which is the formation of friendships, guilds, and alliances that are satisfying in their own right, as well as being fantastic ways to increase your ability to compete for the scarce resources and succeed at whatever your in-game goals are.

TL;DR - make more friends, find another game, or revise your list of wanted items

Kika Maslyaka

04-14-2011, 10:19 PM

Realize that some people will never get access to a locket of escape, or a guise of the deceiver, or lustrous russet, etc. for a variety of reasons, one being that they may have just joined the server later than everybody else. What kind of warped sense of fairness is it that everyone should have an opportunity to get these items? That's nonsense. Live never had any guarantee like that. If something as small as joining the server earlier can be a legitimate means by which to gain an advantage over others, then how is it illegitimate that the rules privilege those who've worked to be trusted by hundreds of people with the same guild tag, something that's actually noteworthy?
.

A significant note here: those items were NOT suppose to exist in the first place.
they weren't rare prizes dropped during GM events for example, but they were taken out of the game because they deemed overpowered or unbalanced. And the only reason SOE did not taken them out retroactively (from people who already got them), is because players would kill them if they did that :p But i would ;)

And in a fairness of running a BALANCED server, P99 should not have even put them in to begin with, because on LIVE it took people a lot of time to discover these items even exist and how beneficial they are. But on p99 everyone knew this from the start, hence amount of those "to be removed" items that circulates in the economy is way more than it ever was on LIVE.

shuklak

04-14-2011, 11:23 PM

A significant note here: those items were NOT suppose to exist in the first place.
they weren't rare prizes dropped during GM events for example, but they were taken out of the game because they deemed overpowered or unbalanced. And the only reason SOE did not taken them out retroactively (from people who already got them), is because players would kill them if they did that :p But i would ;)

And in a fairness of running a BALANCED server, P99 should not have even put them in to begin with, because on LIVE it took people a lot of time to discover these items even exist and how beneficial they are. But on p99 everyone knew this from the start, hence amount of those "to be removed" items that circulates in the economy is way more than it ever was on LIVE.
Great point about the unbalancing aspect. It seems like some of this gear is going to be standard protocol for top almost all high level players. That's not classic at all.

tocasia

04-14-2011, 11:47 PM

wehrmacht

04-15-2011, 12:06 AM

Interesting idea but I have no idea how you'd enforce it.

Turn on PvP

Shiftin

04-15-2011, 12:19 AM

I must confess, the logic of your statement escapes me. You seem to be saying that if something is difficult to do, it justifies the result? That makes no sense to me.

No, i'm saying that if someone put in the effort to coordinate something, then they deserve the rewards. I had been awake 26 hours when i got my jade prod and i wasn't even close to the worst situation on that camp. Lots of people sacrificed lots of other great opportunities to watch over the camp to ensure it was secured as a guild because having it benefitted us directly as an entity. I'm quite sure the same applies to lots of other folks at other camps they prioritized.

shuklak

04-15-2011, 01:17 AM

Eventually, either the guilds will grow tired of the same camps, or there will be so many of the items in circulation that the price will fall. Then you'll be able to get the item/s. There's nothing unfair here. If anything, it's great that the camps are farmed so that there will be more of these on the server than there were on live, actually making them easier to acquire.
But for the people who can and want to camp the items themselves would rather do it that way. It appears they simply cannot.

All in all though, you are right to an extent. I think one of the devs talked about the circlet of shadows and said something interesting like there will be more of these on the server than ever will be shadowknights to use them.

gnomishfirework

04-15-2011, 01:52 AM

baalzy

04-15-2011, 01:59 AM

You make a good point, but this is really changing a rule for you.

The guild's members have just as much right to camps as you. They have more friends, so they have an easier time of locking down.

Just go outside and get some sun and tell yourself that they may win at EQ poopsocking but you win at life.

Heres the lapse in the logic.

They have the same right to the camp as you. So their asses can be sitting there at the goddamn camp, in line behind their friends.

Not off doing whatever the hell they want in game or out of game until they get the call to come and take over.

maegi

04-15-2011, 02:14 AM

cry more. i never said skill, i said dedication. L2Read

Is your cunt bleeding Vendar? I was stating how the shit works , if you don't like it find another server turdtickler. Dedication? Sitting at a camp nonstop to get some pixels on a 10 year old game isn't dedication numbnuts, it's a fucking waste of time, just like you are you stupid faghag.

Ronas

04-15-2011, 03:01 AM

gnomishfirework

04-15-2011, 03:12 AM

Doors

04-15-2011, 03:42 AM

GMs (if they have the time) should just check in on popular camps. If a guild has had control of one specific camp for 48 hours straight or longer (which is seriously pathetic) they should boot them out which would give others a chance at it.

I guess people could go anon, or just leave their guild while they switch who has the camp, etc. Ways around it but how else would you do it.

soup

04-15-2011, 03:51 AM

Heres the lapse in the logic.

They have the same right to the camp as you. So their asses can be sitting there at the goddamn camp, in line behind their friends.

Not off doing whatever the hell they want in game or out of game until they get the call to come and take over.

So what, if we're holding down a camp with a nice balanced group, you get to run up on whatever class and demand the next spot, regardless of what we want in the group?

Or is it only if your class would be nice and compatible? Who determines that?
Or is it only if the the camp is too easy for the group? Who determines that?
Or is it only if [insert arbitrary stipulation]? Who determines that?
etc.

Vendar

04-15-2011, 04:22 AM

Is your cunt bleeding Vendar? I was stating how the shit works , if you don't like it find another server turdtickler. Dedication? Sitting at a camp nonstop to get some pixels on a 10 year old game isn't dedication numbnuts, it's a fucking waste of time, just like you are you stupid faghag.

first time ive been called a faghag, your awesome bro. so much yearning for pixels has you raging.
i saw what u were doing and i was stating why you were wrong. why would i find another server when im not the one crying about loots or rules, unlike you i understand that certain people will have to wait longer than others or buy/trade for the item in EC. and yes, whether you like it or not, the people poopsocking for 12 straight hours are in deed showing dedication to what they are doing, regardless if u view it as a waste of time.

oh, and if im a waste of your time feel free to stop replying to my posts at any time

have a wonder day asshole ;)

Shiftin

04-15-2011, 04:30 AM

Not sure what the big deal with one little camp, you have guild blocking the server from a whole zone here. Now that needs to change. I suggest upping the mob so you need a balance group to kill it. Not 2-3 people, a whole group. Or multiple mobs surrounding the specific key mob so they need to constantly kill something.

We weren't blocking anyone, we were consuming an extremely limited resource that we needed. When we ceased to need that resource, we stopped consuming it. Acquiring and the actual consumption took significant time and effort.

You didn't make it a priority to consume that specific resource, so you will have to wait in line behind the people who did make it a priority. Does this bear absolutely no resemblence to real life to you at all?

The inability of people to think beyond "I can't have what I want so there must be injustice here - please change the rules to favor me" is pretty mind blowing.

Dr4z3r

04-15-2011, 12:20 PM

DocLangour, your request is well-said, and mostly well-thought out. There are 2 main issues, though: First, it's necessarily going to be a huge pain to enforce. Imagine the screenshots/logs flooding the GM's about who got where when and said what to whom. Secondly, it's really not in the spirit of the player-made world of classic EQ. This sort of stuff might not have been as pronounced on live, due to the lack of advance knowledge about things, but it definitely happened.

I had another idea the dev's might be interested in, though: imagine that every group that enters a dungeon just gets their own copy of the dungeon! You'd be free to camp, or dungeon crawl all they want, and be free totally free from others' trains and interference! That's all we'd need: one instance of each dungeon per group!

Sephrana

04-15-2011, 12:26 PM

only a KSer/exploiter would hate that feature :p:p:p

or ya know....someone trying to HELP the group if they got in trouble.....

Slave

04-15-2011, 12:28 PM

I had another idea the dev's might be interested in, though: imagine that every group that enters a dungeon just gets their own copy of the instance! You'd be free to camp, or dungeon crawl all they want, and be free totally free from others' trains and interference! That's all we'd need: one instance of each dungeon per group!

This already exists, and it's called "Every Other Game On The Market."

Kika Maslyaka

04-15-2011, 12:30 PM

or ya know....someone trying to HELP the group if they got in trouble.....

for this purpose they have /yell option =)
It will unlock the encounter, and allow people from outside deal dmg to a mob

fischsemmel

04-15-2011, 12:34 PM

Competition makes this game fun imo.

So what are you saying? That a monopoly IS competition, or that you support something like what the OP is suggesting?

fischsemmel

04-15-2011, 12:34 PM

This already exists, and it's called "Every Other Game On The Market."

l2sarcasm?

Kassel

04-15-2011, 12:35 PM

Gotta take the sour with the sweet. Challanges like this is what makes EQ the game we all come back to.

Morlaeth

04-15-2011, 01:08 PM

This isn't WOW. There is no insta-win in this game. Unless you're me. HAR HAR

Badmartigan

04-15-2011, 07:01 PM

This isn't WOW. There is no insta-win in this game. Unless you're me. HAR HAR

Big Morlaeth is the win.. Gotta admit it.

Chucck

04-15-2011, 07:39 PM

I don't get people sometimes. Your playing a game that is based on a game that already existed 11 years ago. The rules were already established, you knew when you signed up that it is trying to recreate as accurately as possible the way it was 11 years ago. IF you don't like the way the server is, don't play this one, or play a different game. Seriously.... its not hard. The rules and way the game was played is the way it was played, that's what you signed up for. This is not a new MMO being developed on the go or progressing. Its a recreation of something that already was the way it was.

mwatt

04-15-2011, 08:36 PM

If a guild or group wants to work a camp for X number of consecutive hours or days in order to get their people what they need that is not a problem for me.

But I don't care how anyone tries to spin it. A guild - or any group for that matter - deliberately monopolizing a camp for the purposes of DENYING others the opportunity to gain the loot from that camp is bullshit and goes against the original theme of the game. End of story.

Rhambuk

04-15-2011, 08:52 PM

Ennoia

04-15-2011, 08:55 PM

Funny, I was just today thinking the exact opposite thing. Since the rule is, in fact, first to engage, then they should simply remove the ">50% damage gets the kill" code and make it "whoever is first on the agro list" gets the exp+loot right, no matter who actually kills it.

Not so much incentive to steal other people's pulls anymore (TT hunter/forager nonsense) and FTE rule for raid mobs is automatically enforced, no need for GM intervention.

That's dumb. Could just kite a mob around until the rest of the raid was ready to engage, preventing anyone else from getting a shot.

If I get to the camp, and there is a queue, im taking the camp when its my turn... a person cant come after me and claim the camp no matter who's friend they are..

This is also dumb. If I'm camping something and my friend wants the camp after me, I just group with him for a bit, then take my leave and he gets the camp, since he was technically in the group with the person originally holding the camp.

Ennoia

04-15-2011, 08:59 PM

Also, for the record, keeping 'lists' for camps is for tools. If someone I know wants a camp when I'm done, I'll give them a time frame of when I'm planning to take off, and then when they get there, do as I said above for a bit, then leave. With the way this server is ran with raid mobs constantly being in competition the entire concept of handing over a camp to someone you don't know is basically giving ammo to the enemy.

Bassracerx

04-16-2011, 02:00 AM

i second the thread starter's solution. this also gets rid of the NEED to lock down mobs. this discurages the guilds to be greedy stuck up assholes and be so clicky they dont allow new members or have to have a stupid aplication process and 2 month waiting list just to join their guild. this change promotes a POSITIVE GAMING ATMOSPHERE

one suggestion is allow whole groups to q together and nobody can join the group later to "cut" in line.

bottom line this is a GAME. this is also a PVE server people are playing to play with other people and be challenged by the environment and NOT the other players.

Bassracerx

04-16-2011, 02:17 AM

epics are right around the corner and if this keeps up very few people will have them despite all the work that indiviuduals/guilds put into getting them. one guild will try to lock out other guilds from getting theirs.

Stibe

04-16-2011, 02:26 AM

If I get to the camp, and there is a queue, im taking the camp when its my turn... a person cant come after me and claim the camp no matter who's friend they are..

Yes, actually, they can.

Hasbinbad

04-16-2011, 03:29 AM

A guild - or any group for that matter - deliberately monopolizing a camp for the purposes of DENYING others the opportunity to gain the loot from that camp is bullshit and goes against the original theme of the game. End of story.
Nobody is trying to deny anyone anything chief. There are a lot of people in guilds, and it takes a while to get items for every person. Also, if a mob camp yields a sellable resource, and a group of people see it as worthwhile to exploit that, then they are going to try and keep it locked to enjoy the fruits of a continuous resource..

Not everything is about you bro.

Even if they were trying to deny other groups something, who are you to say that that goes against the original theme of everquest? Why is that the end of the story? Just because you say so?

Chutzpah & hubris imho.

Hasbinbad

04-16-2011, 03:31 AM

Where were you soapboxers when gothic circle was monopolizing manastone? Rofl.

Vendar

04-16-2011, 06:19 AM

Sharkeye

04-16-2011, 06:27 AM

this sort of thing is why people play on this server

Bassracerx

04-16-2011, 06:33 AM

this sort of thing is why people play on this server

what sort of thing? people being mean and inconsiderately hording internet pixels because they can at the detriment of others? or the forward thinking Lets-make-this-better-for-everybody-can-do-attitude?

Vendar

04-16-2011, 06:38 AM

it has nothing to do with being mean. as a matter of fact it has nothing to do with you at all. get over yourself pal.

its a matter of equipping the guild first, thats it.

yaeger

04-16-2011, 01:06 PM

Move the named to a different location, make people dungeon crawl and explore places all over again to discover the loot.

Just like Classic.

Lazortag

04-16-2011, 02:55 PM

But I don't care how anyone tries to spin it. A guild - or any group for that matter - deliberately monopolizing a camp for the purposes of DENYING others the opportunity to gain the loot from that camp is bullshit and goes against the original theme of the game. End of story.

Fair enough. Maybe not everyone agrees but I also think it's unacceptable to camp something only so that you can delete the loot. As far as I know that's not what's happening here, and you have no evidence to think that it is. Instead of making things up that you have no basis for, why don't you respond in some meaningful way to the people who disagree with you? Lots of reasonable people have posted in this thread and all you've done is ignore them.

Move the named to a different location, make people dungeon crawl and explore places all over again to discover the loot.

Just like Classic.

You're right - changing the game entirely to be different from classic, will make it feel more like classic.

yaeger

04-16-2011, 03:11 PM

You're right - changing the game entirely to be different from classic, will make it feel more like classic.

Sorry, but I fail to see how moving the named spawn to a different location in the same dungeon would be "changing the game entirely".

It'd be a small non-classic change that would have an enormous impact to make the game-play feel more like it was back in 99/00. I'd argue that it would make it more classic.

Re-introduce dungeon crawling, exploring, etc. No more skipping 90% of the content to camp a single room in a dungeon where years of experience has shown a named will spawn 15% of the time and drop your valuable loot item 25% of the time.

OH no! We'd have to search for stuff like people did back in classic!

Kika Maslyaka

04-16-2011, 03:45 PM

Sorry, but I fail to see how moving the named spawn to a different location in the same dungeon would be "changing the game entirely".

It'd be a small non-classic change that would have an enormous impact to make the game-play feel more like it was back in 99/00. I'd argue that it would make it more classic.

Re-introduce dungeon crawling, exploring, etc. No more skipping 90% of the content to camp a single room in a dungeon where years of experience has shown a named will spawn 15% of the time and drop your valuable loot item 25% of the time.

OH no! We'd have to search for stuff like people did back in classic!

I hear what you saying, but the devs probably won't go for this ;)
You see, its "the spirit of classic" on one hand and "the classic content" on the other.

And while the "content" can be replicated to the letter, the "spirit" couldn't.
One or the other have to be sacrificed...

Honestly, I am a person who more cares for the "spirit" rather than the "content", but re-incarnation of eq spirit would be better done in a whole new custom server project, which would look similar to Classic, but different just enough to bring back the novelty, exploration and the unknown ;)

YendorLootmonkey

04-16-2011, 04:13 PM

yaeger

04-16-2011, 04:22 PM

It would take less than 24 hours of a multi-guild concerted effort (i.e. mass dungeonrape) to find that game-changing item camp again, and then you'd be back in the same situation.

Now require that for each and every dungeon & item through Kunark/Classic/Velious and it'll be just like 1999/2000.

Give those big guilds something to do.

On the other hand, would be a nightmare for the devs.

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin

04-17-2011, 12:01 PM

bwe

04-17-2011, 12:03 PM

just take the camp screw their guild

randal.flagg

04-17-2011, 12:18 PM

The fix is in the game itself, named mob which has itemx should spawn in other locations so there isn't really a way to lock him down unless you lock down the entire zone. I always thought Naggy or Vox should spawn in other zones.

the (original... current?) concept behind this server was to emulate the EQ live experience as much as possible. Unfortunately the dilema is that everyone knows which items get nerfed when (making it impossible to re-create a true live clone btw). Either way that would be a fundamental change to this game that many would not be down with.

But I digress...

The major guilds on the server have locked down most every valued item, and DEFINITELY all the items that get nerfed/taken out. Each of those guilds are probably bickering about their own respective queue's, so its hard if not impossible for people to get those items even when they are in the guild that has the camp. But even so, these guilds do fumble. Server down-time is a great chance for you to log in and snag a camp. Or even just literally waiting at the spawn until they go afk or whatever. This is an extremely hardcore bunch, so even if you are in a guild... you need to be dead-fucking serious about getting these items if you want them.

The idea of a nice peaceful line for that fungi staff u want is... not realistic.

I'm afraid your options are limited if you'd like some of those rare items:

Guild up (best chance IMO, do it now if you want a shot)
Absurd dedication (required even w/ guild.. prolly 3x if you aren't)
pony up the plat (these items aint cheap though)

mipstien

04-17-2011, 12:20 PM

problem i see -
in classic we didn't know about these items so they weren't locked down. that also means you didn't know about the items and wouldn't have camped them either. so accept that this is a really buffed classic and everything is just 10x the pain in the ass it use to be.

randal.flagg

04-17-2011, 12:33 PM

mwatt

04-17-2011, 12:43 PM

Nobody is trying to deny anyone anything chief. There are a lot of people in guilds, and it takes a while to get items for every person. Also, if a mob camp yields a sellable resource, and a group of people see it as worthwhile to exploit that, then they are going to try and keep it locked to enjoy the fruits of a continuous resource..

Not everything is about you bro.

Even if they were trying to deny other groups something, who are you to say that that goes against the original theme of everquest? Why is that the end of the story? Just because you say so?

Chutzpah & hubris imho.

RE: There are a lot of people in guilds, and it takes a while to get items for every person. Also, if a mob camp yields a sellable resource, and a group of people see it as worthwhile to exploit that, then they are going to try and keep it locked to enjoy the fruits of a continuous resource..

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You can't claim the lockout is just to get items for every person and at the same time say that people are locking out to exploit it (which is almost certainly the truth of the matter for some items, like the COS for instance).

RE: Not everything is about you bro.

I can't believe that you have the chutzpah to say this. What is going on with these camps is very much a function of selfishness. I'm not the one keeping people out of these camps. Chutzpah indeed.

RE: ...who are you to say that that goes against the original theme of everquest?

Me? I'm a nobody. Just someone that played the original EQ from the second day of launch for 6 solid years. I know nothing about the way the server was. I've been around for a while, but I know nothing about the nature of the board games and muds that this game was derived from.

RE: Why is that the end of the story? Just because you say so?

It's a manner of expression. Give me a break. If you have to try that hard to find exception to what I said, methink thou doth protest too much.

The more I think about this, the more I think the rule of allowing the current controller of the camp to completely dicate how it gets passed on needs ammendment. It seems as if it would be more reasonable to require the next people in line to be present when handing over a camp.

soup

04-17-2011, 12:59 PM

RE: There are a lot of people in guilds, and it takes a while to get items for every person. Also, if a mob camp yields a sellable resource, and a group of people see it as worthwhile to exploit that, then they are going to try and keep it locked to enjoy the fruits of a continuous resource..

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You can't claim the lockout is just to get items for every person and at the same time say that people are locking out to exploit it (which is almost certainly the truth of the matter for some items, like the COS for instance).

RE: Not everything is about you bro.

I can't believe that you have the chutzpah to say this. What is going on with these camps is very much a function of selfishness. I'm not the one keeping people out of these camps. Chutzpah indeed.

RE: ...who are you to say that that goes against the original theme of everquest?

Me? I'm a nobody. Just someone that played the original EQ from the second day of launch for 6 solid years. I know nothing about the way the server was. I've been around for a while, but I know nothing about the nature of the board games and muds that this game was derived from.

RE: Why is that the end of the story? Just because you say so?

It's a manner of expression. Give me a break. If you have to try that hard to find exception to what I said, methink thou doth protest too much.

The more I think about this, the more I think the rule of allowing the current controller of the camp to completely dicate how it gets passed on needs ammendment. It seems as if it would be more reasonable to require the next people in line to be present when handing over a camp.

You guys are completely missing the implications of what you're trying to advocate.

You want some system where people who just show up at a camp must be put in line for it, but what about the idea of group balance? Or does this only apply to easy camps? Who determines what's an easy camp? Do you expect the GMs to sit down and write up some list of what camps being camped by what levels would require people to be allowed in the group just because they showed up? Or do you want to put more strain on GMs and have them constantly having to go to these hot spots and arbitrarily decide if the group is holding easily and if they should force them to let some other guy in?

The bottom line is, if a group is camping an area, at what point does it become "fair" for you to be forced into their group? At what point does it become "fair" to push the group out of their camp? Oh, right, it never becomes fair to do either of those things. Not at the CoS camp, not at the tstaff camp.

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 01:15 PM

Mage friend and I have been in Droga for the past four days. Yesterday we asked if we could get into the camp once they were done.

"I dunno, we have guildies interested in the camp."

Same as yesterday, and the day before.

Got to talking to someone who was camping it, and he said that the entire guild is on a list to get the camp. The entire guild.

Cool guys, great job.

make it a rule, that the ONLY people who can be put on the list are those who physically present at the camp spot AT ALL TIME - if they not here or they left the dungeon - they NOT on the list ;)

Any one who arrives after you - is placed behind you in the wait line

mwatt

04-17-2011, 01:18 PM

You guys are completely missing the implications of what you're trying to advocate.

You want some system where people who just show up at a camp must be put in line for it, but what about the idea of group balance? Or does this only apply to easy camps? Who determines what's an easy camp? Do you expect the GMs to sit down and write up some list of what camps being camped by what levels would require people to be allowed in the group just because they showed up? Or do you want to put more strain on GMs and have them constantly having to go to these hot spots and arbitrarily decide if the group is holding easily and if they should force them to let some other guy in?

The bottom line is, if a group is camping an area, at what point does it become "fair" for you to be forced into their group? At what point does it become "fair" to push the group out of their camp? Oh, right, it never becomes fair to do either of those things. Not at the CoS camp, not at the tstaff camp.

Actually, I am advocating something a bit different from what the OP outlined. I am in favor of requiring a person or persons to be present in order to have the "right" to take the camp - any camp, not just some special camp. This is already what is happening in places like SRo, for the AC camp. If nobody is physically waiting then sure, a camp holder can tell guildies, friends or others that the camp is about to be freed up and they should come and get it.

I'm not talking about making a list or a line. I expect the GMs to do nothing in this reguard. It's ludicrous to think that they should make lists. If multiple persons or groups really want to physically sit there for multiple groups ahead of them to take their turn, then more power to them. I suspect that this won't happen much though.

I am also not talking about the "share" policy that existed on live. I don't think you should have to let anyone join the group that asks to.

The current policy puts the power for saying who goes next into the hands of the current camp holder. This does not guarantee that there will never be disputes that a GM might have to hear. The change I am advocating is very little or no additional burden on the GMs nor is it changing anything about the way a current campholder will play they game.

soup

04-17-2011, 01:19 PM

make it a rule, that the ONLY people who can be put on the list are those who physically present at the camp spot AT ALL TIME - if they not here or they left the dungeon - they NOT at the list ;)

So if our bard leaves, we can't find another bard because a mage is waiting at the camp?

Or does it only apply if one of the same class is sitting there, even though 3 people in the group have had terrible experiences with that bard waiting there who doesn't know how to play?

Or is it only on camps arbitrarily labeled as easy? I'm sure GMs want even more hassle on their plate because you feel entitled to be let into someone else's group.

mwatt

04-17-2011, 01:21 PM

make it a rule, that the ONLY people who can be put on the list are those who physically present at the camp spot AT ALL TIME - if they not here or they left the dungeon - they NOT on the list ;)

Any one who arrives after you - is placed behind you in the wait line

Exactly what I am saying as well.

soup

04-17-2011, 01:23 PM

Actually, I am advocating something a bit different from what the OP outlined. I am in favor of requiring a person or persons to be present in order to have the "right" to take the camp - any camp, not just some special camp. This is already what is happening in places like SRo, for the AC camp. If nobody is physically waiting then sure, a camp holder can tell guildies, friends or others that the camp is about to be freed up and they should come and get it.

I'm not talking about making a list or a line. I expect the GMs to do nothing in this reguard. It's ludicrous to think that they should make lists. If multiple persons or groups really want to physically sit there for multiple groups ahead of them to take their turn, then more power to them. I suspect that this won't happen much though.

I am also not talking about the "share" policy that existed on live. I don't think you should have to let anyone join the group that asks to.

The current policy puts the power for saying who goes next into the hands of the current camp holder. This does not guarantee that there will never be disputes that a GM might have to hear. The change I am advocating is very little or no additional burden on the GMs nor is it changing anything about the way a current campholder will play they game.
It sounds like your confused as to how it works. It's not like someone leaves the CoS camp and tells a guildie to come over and take it, leaving an open but claimed camp. That's not how it works.

Say I'm camping something. Okay, now I'm done camping, hey buddy in my guild, come join my group over here at xxxxx camp. They say okay, and head on over. Once they get here, I leave the camp and they take it.

mwatt

04-17-2011, 01:25 PM

soup

04-17-2011, 01:26 PM

Exactly what I am saying as well.

Right, your advocating for groups to not have total discretion in who joins the group. I can't invite the pro bard in my guild to help me out because a scrubby bard is standing in front of me, or something.

Like I said before, I don't think you guys have thoroughly thought about what it is you're advocating.

soup

04-17-2011, 01:28 PM

No Soup (for djou!),

I think the idea is that if the first group needed to replace someone, let them do it. That group as an entity, is still the group holding the camp. They don't need to have pull from people waiting around. They own the camp, they can do what they want with it while they are playing there. They just can't "will it" to somebody else.

So you want an arbitrary cluster fuck?

So I'm doing CoS camp with 3 guildmates. Someone runs up, but since we're our own group we don't need to let them in, okay. We decide we want a bard, so we invite a pro bard from a guild, he comes in, cool. I decide I'm leaving, so I leave. The remainder of people holding the camp do that for a round or two, then invite another person from the guild, then someone who was there already leaves, etc. until a few hours later none of the original members are in the group anymore. At what point does your proposed rule of "only people waiting can be in line" get invoked? Is it if we cycle members in under a certain time frame? If we cycle too many at once?

mwatt

04-17-2011, 01:40 PM

So you want an arbitrary cluster fuck?

So I'm doing CoS camp with 3 guildmates. Someone runs up, but since we're our own group we don't need to let them in, okay. We decide we want a bard, so we invite a pro bard from a guild, he comes in, cool. I decide I'm leaving, so I leave. The remainder of people holding the camp do that for a round or two, then invite another person from the guild, then someone who was there already leaves, etc. until a few hours later none of the original members are in the group anymore. At what point does your proposed rule of "only people waiting can be in line" get invoked? Is it if we cycle members in under a certain time frame? If we cycle too many at once?

Hmm, no I don't want an "arbitrary cluster fuck". The scenario you describe would be one way for the unscrupulous to work around the problem. I do see your point though and I must admit I did not think it completely through.

I suppose one would also have to introduce the idea that once all original members of a group are gone, it is no longer the same group. This complicates the matter and may indeed mean additional work for a GM. I suppose a screen shot of the members in the original group could be a requirement if one wanted to press such a point, but then you'd have guilds leaving players in a group just afk to circumvent that. Then a GM would have to do more work to arbitrate that issue.

My suggested solution is not the easy fix I thought it was. It might still be better than what we have, but that is debatable.

soup

04-17-2011, 01:48 PM

Hmm, no I don't want an "arbitrary cluster fuck". The scenario you describe would be one way for the unscrupulous to work around the problem. I do see your point though and I must admit I did not think it completely through.

I suppose one would also have to introduce the idea that once all original members of a group are gone, it is no longer the same group. This complicates the matter and may indeed mean additional work for a GM. I suppose a screen shot of the members in the original group could be a requirement if one wanted to press such a point, but then you'd have guilds leaving players in a group just afk to circumvent that. Then a GM would have to do more work to arbitrate that issue.

My suggested solution is not the easy fix I thought it was. It might still be better than what we have, but that is debatable.
Word.

I mean, I don't really like the idea of monopolies on camps either, but the most fair thing and least burdening to the GMs, IMO, is pretty much the current system. Every idea I've heard for a fix is always either something that would lead to even more of a cluster fuck, or require micromanaging from GMs, or be something akin to fixing a broken thumb by chopping off your arm.

Also, just to throw it out there, I have been involved in high end Kunark camps for all of like 2 or 3 hours (just the CoS) since Kunark release, so I'm not saying this as someone who profits from camp monopolies. Just wanna make sure I don't come across the wrong way :)

mwatt

04-17-2011, 01:58 PM

Word.

I mean, I don't really like the idea of monopolies on camps either, but the most fair thing and least burdening to the GMs, IMO, is pretty much the current system. Every idea I've heard for a fix is always either something that would lead to even more of a cluster fuck, or require micromanaging from GMs, or be something akin to fixing a broken thumb by chopping off your arm.

Also, just to throw it out there, I have been involved in high end Kunark camps for all of like 2 or 3 hours (just the CoS) since Kunark release, so I'm not saying this as someone who profits from camp monopolies. Just wanna make sure I don't come across the wrong way :)

Understood.

I suppose in the end, there is always the community reputaion thing. If certain guilds are clearly monopolizing for intent other than equipping their guilds, then that gets around. In fact it already IS around. For insteand, I have heard more then one person say negative things about TMO because of this.

Probably they will rebut yet again and claim that they are only equipping their guild. However, even if that were to be the truth, I personally would still not like being locked out of somewhere I wanted to be for a chance at such important items. I know I am not alone in this.

soup

04-17-2011, 02:07 PM

Understood.

I suppose in the end, there is always the community reputaion thing. If certain guilds are clearly monopolizing for intent other than equipping their guilds, then that gets around. In fact it already IS around. For insteand, I have heard more then one person say negative things about TMO because of this.

Probably they will rebut yet again and claim that they are only equipping their guild. However, even if that were to be the truth, I personally would still not like being locked out of somewhere I wanted to be for a chance at such important items. I know I am not alone in this.

I wouldn't mind seeing them get rid of the "x amount of time after server crash to reclaim a camp" as a way to break up camp monopolies, but I know that would be a nightmare for GMs to deal with. Every time the server goes down you'd have 20 different people representing different groups all trying to claim they killed mob x, y, and z after repop and the other guy saying he killed a, b, and c and someone else saying they killed this and that, etc. per camp, times who knows how many camps, a long with any potential "omg I died to server crash, plz can ras rez?" petitions, I'm sure it would become a massive nightmare for them that they shouldn't have to deal with. Plus the server can stay up for quite long, and if it does go down there's no guarantee that anyone else would be ready to nab the camp, so it still wouldn't do a whole hell of a lot to break up camp monopolies.

Not really any scenario is just full of win :(

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin

04-17-2011, 02:08 PM

The guild that has the CoS camp locked down has apparently been doing this since Kunark was released.

Who's to say that once this guild is "done" that another guild isn't going to step in do exactly the same thing?

Also, the guild doing this is a higher raiding guild, so why would they give a damn what people think of them? It's obvious they don't.

Frustrating time for anyone not in their guild.

soup

04-17-2011, 02:11 PM

CoS camp has traded (cross guild) hands many times, btw

I've even walked in to find the zone 100% empty before.

Killua

04-17-2011, 02:13 PM

CoS camp has traded (cross guild) hands many times, btw

I've even walked in to find the zone 100% empty before.

This. Plus I've heard the CoS doesn't get nerfed until after Velious is released, I doubt there will be a shortage of them, and plenty of time to go get one yourself.

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin

04-17-2011, 02:16 PM

I seriously hope that I'll get the chance to, or any casual players for that matter.

soup

04-17-2011, 02:17 PM

I seriously hope that I'll get the chance to, or any casual players for that matter.

The things are already plummeting in price. By the time it gets nerfed there will probably be more of them in circulation than there are people playing on the server.

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin

04-17-2011, 02:32 PM

CoS is lore I thought? So hopefully sooner

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 02:36 PM

So if our bard leaves, we can't find another bard because a mage is waiting at the camp?

Or does it only apply if one of the same class is sitting there, even though 3 people in the group have had terrible experiences with that bard waiting there who doesn't know how to play?

Or is it only on camps arbitrarily labeled as easy? I'm sure GMs want even more hassle on their plate because you feel entitled to be let into someone else's group.

you can put anyone you like in your group - they just will be in line behind who ever was there before them.
You can have 3 different groups sitting in same camp spot, as long as Waiting List is observed in proper order.

--------------------------------

In alternative (better) approach: count it in KILLS of a named mob

So we have players A and B camping named mob Z - they together form a group 1 - a single entity

Now players C and D show up. Now if they can either join group 1 already there and share equally OR they can form another entity group 2, which case they placed on a wait line.

Then it works like this:
-mob Z spawns, and group 1 has the first kill
-next spawn of Z will now go to group 2
-next spawn of Z goes back to group 1
-next spawn of Z goes back to group 2 again
etc

now players E and F show up at the camp. They can either join any of the existing groups (without breaking the lien order), or they can form group 3, which will be placed into existing rotation after group 2

IMHo - this is VERY straightforward and simple approach

soup

04-17-2011, 02:42 PM

you can put anyone you like in your group - they just will be in line behind who ever was there before them.
You can have 3 different groups sitting in same camp spot, as long as Waiting List is observed in proper order.

So you're advocating a system where groups can't choose who joins their group but rather are forced to take the guy just because he's standing there? That's what it sounds like when you say "you can put anyone you like in your group - they just will be in line behind who ever was there before them."

You're saying that groups should be forced to accept anyone who just walks up to them? What exactly are you saying here?

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 03:02 PM

you obviously is NOT reading...
I said you can make groups of WHATEVER you like - but its players who are tracked on the waiting list, not groups

also- read the 2nd big thing- its even better way

soup

04-17-2011, 03:37 PM

you obviously is NOT reading...
I said you can make groups of WHATEVER you like - but its players who are tracked on the waiting list, not groups

also- read the 2nd big thing- its even better way

you obviously is not english master

I was trying not to be a dick about it, but hey, if you want to act like one, fine. You're doing a horrible job of articulating whatever it is you're trying to say, and what you do manage to say is ridiculous.

It's players that are tracked, not groups? What does that even mean? So if someone in my group leaves, I can replace them with any player I want? So in other words absolutely nothing changes from now?

Do you think the camp passing works with one full group of people leaving and another full group rolling in? lol? And even if it did, whatever the hell it is you're advocating would do nothing to change it.

mbledsoe

04-17-2011, 03:43 PM

Invite a wizard and magician to your group and kill the monster you need. Out gun them. shessh!

mbledsoe

04-17-2011, 03:47 PM

There is an old adage that goes like this: MIGHT VS RIGHT. The mightier will prevail. This is how history is written.

TAKE THE CAMP!!!! Don't ask, just take it. Innoruk would want you to do this.

Vendar

04-17-2011, 04:07 PM

Then it works like this:
-mob Z spawns, and group 1 has the first kill
-next spawn of Z will now go to group 2
-next spawn of Z goes back to group 1
-next spawn of Z goes back to group 2 again
etc

now players E and F show up at the camp. They can either join any of the existing groups (without breaking the lien order), or they can form group 3, which will be placed into existing rotation after group 2

IMHo - this is VERY straightforward and simple approach

this is the most retarded thing i have ever heard of in my life. Guilds that are able to hold down camps deserves those camps. join a better guild or wait til they leave. try to understand not everything is about you, and that u may have to wait for certain things if u decide you dont want to be in a large guild. the exact reason people join those guilds is to get access to zones/gear, why can't you understand that?

cry less plz

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 04:17 PM

you obviously is not english master

I was trying not to be a dick about it, but hey, if you want to act like one, fine. You're doing a horrible job of articulating whatever it is you're trying to say, and what you do manage to say is ridiculous.

It's players that are tracked, not groups? What does that even mean? So if someone in my group leaves, I can replace them with any player I want? So in other words absolutely nothing changes from now?

Do you think the camp passing works with one full group of people leaving and another full group rolling in? lol? And even if it did, whatever the hell it is you're advocating would do nothing to change it.

well you are the one not getting my point =P
mwatt understood it without need for step by step explanation =P
no, not trying to be a dick, but you keep asking again and again with questions which do not stick to what I am trying to say what so ever.

again
way 1:

players a, b and c form a group 1 and camping mob Z
player D shows up and wants in
group can either take him, OR put him 2nd in line
player E who is a guildy to a, b and c shows up and joins their group, BUT since D was there BEFORE him, E doesn't get rights to loot from mob Z, until D gets his

this still a bit confusing, so refer to WAY #2 described above - its much more clear

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 04:23 PM

yaaaflow

04-17-2011, 04:30 PM

So if some group is camping frenzy in lguk I (who could solo frenzy room if broken but prob not break the room myself) I can walk in, sit down on top of them and get every 2nd frenzy with your ruleset?

Yeah I don't see any potential for abuse there.

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 04:34 PM

considering this is Classic server and all - per Official SOE rule- if ANYONE at all walks into your camp - you OBLIGATED to share, otherwise GM will simply kick you out ;)

Vendar

04-17-2011, 04:50 PM

cry? FTW? where did i cry? I am trying to establish a clean chain of rotation, and being or not being in a good guild has nothing to do with it.
If you show up at a camp someone else is holding, and you CANNOT possible kill the mob on your own - then you obviously can't claim any kill rights on it

what I am talking about is anti-monopolization rule and cockblocking

people that arent able to kill what they are camping, i 100% agree with you.

but when it comes to guilds locking down camps like Locket, NoS, CoS, HS key stuff, etc, they have every right in the world to hold the camps as long as they want (and of course are physically able to kill said mobs) THAT alone is the single largest reason to join a top end guild. so again, join a top end guild, or wait until they leave... or try to catch them snoozing and take the camp... OR offer to help hold the camp when numbers get low in exchange for a chance at the item.

go play wow if u want ez mode

the end.

Klyre

04-17-2011, 05:05 PM

players a, b and c form a group 1 and camping mob Z
player D shows up and wants in
group can either take him, OR put him 2nd in line
player E who is a guildy to a, b and c shows up and joins their group, BUT since D was there BEFORE him, E doesn't get rights to loot from mob Z, until D gets his

I am sorry Kika, but without changing the game mechanics there would be no way to do this.

How in your scenario would player D even know what was dropped or what was looted if your not in group. If you don't see it drop you will never know that the uber item you wanted was given to player E. How would you decide which loot to give to who? Some camps have more then one item of value, and how would you work that into your scenario? If you are not in group to help with the kill why should you get anything.

considering this is Classic server and all - per Official SOE rule- if ANYONE at all walks into your camp - you OBLIGATED to share, otherwise GM will simply kick you out

I am sure that you are aware that this is not SOE but P99, although the GM's and Developers have done a wonderful job of trying to recreate a game from yesteryear there are still some differences and one of those is that I have concluded is applying rules that require the least amount of headache/issues for them to deal with.

I appreciate everyone's attempt to find a better solution as its not perfect, but try to remember the Headache/issue rule when trying to come up with a better one.

Kika, your idea is fraught with micromanagement and server programing changes.

Bigcountry23

04-17-2011, 05:15 PM

Enable PvP, Enable pro-train policy.

Problem solved.

Some people just want to watch the world burn...

Lazortag

04-17-2011, 05:43 PM

considering this is Classic server and all - per Official SOE rule- if ANYONE at all walks into your camp - you OBLIGATED to share, otherwise GM will simply kick you out ;)

This wasn't the rule on all servers. I know that such a rule was rarely if ever enforced on Rodcet Nife where I played.

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 06:12 PM

I am sorry Kika, but without changing the game mechanics there would be no way to do this.

How in your scenario would player D even know what was dropped or what was looted if your not in group. If you don't see it drop you will never know that the uber item you wanted was given to player E. How would you decide which loot to give to who? Some camps have more then one item of value, and how would you work that into your scenario? If you are not in group to help with the kill why should you get anything.

Kika, your idea is fraught with micromanagement and server programing changes.

yeah its a bit messy, this is why I offered way #2 which have mob itself go to one side or the other, rather the loot drop

SirAlvarex

04-17-2011, 06:12 PM

I'm surprised (maybe more dissapointed..) there needs to be a set, complicated rule for camp disputes. What happened to the play nice policy? If someone comes by the camp and is willing to sit there until you are done, why not let them have the camp?

I agree the person who owns the camp has the right to decide who gets it next. It just puts a black mark on the community to see topics like these spring up. The broadcasts in game asking for fewer camp dispute petitions also don't help.

Can't we all just get along? :D

Kika Maslyaka

04-17-2011, 06:14 PM

This wasn't the rule on all servers. I know that such a rule was rarely if ever enforced on Rodcet Nife where I played.

it was universal PNP for the game - Play Nice Policy. Whenever certain server gms enforced it or not, is another thing

Ravhin

04-17-2011, 08:27 PM

it was universal PNP for the game - Play Nice Policy. Whenever certain server gms enforced it or not, is another thing

Indeed this was actually the case cerca 1999-2000, here is the relevant part of the Guide CSR manual:

8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested... instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If [a second] complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.

mwatt

04-17-2011, 08:40 PM

this is the most retarded thing i have ever heard of in my life. Guilds that are able to hold down camps deserves those camps. join a better guild or wait til they leave. try to understand not everything is about you, and that u may have to wait for certain things if u decide you dont want to be in a large guild. the exact reason people join those guilds is to get access to zones/gear, why can't you understand that?

cry less plz

I don't think its an issue of not understanding Vendar. She and I, and quite a few others simply completely disagree with you. The game as originally designed and envisioned was about many kinds of play group, solo, guild. As it progressed, SOE began to cater more and more to the same kind of guild mentality that you are expressing here. We all know what happened eventually.

One aspect of play - the guild aspect - should not be able trump the others in every given situation just because a guild wants it to. I can understand some competition at the guild level for raid bosses, but I can't support the effort of guilds banding together to monopolize content that doesn't need a guild or a raid to kill. Droga is primarly group intended content, though skilled soloists of certain classes may also manage it.

EQ was designed to be a cooperative multiplayer game. In my opinion, this "locking down" goes contrary to that spirit. It's selfish and mean. Not "mean" like "cruel" - "mean" like "small and debased".

Oh and by the way, the fact that someone disagrees with your point of view does not mean they are "crying". I shoudn't have to explain that to a mature individual.

Vendar

04-18-2011, 12:27 AM

I don't think its an issue of not understanding Vendar. She and I, and quite a few others simply completely disagree with you. The game as originally designed and envisioned was about many kinds of play group, solo, guild. As it progressed, SOE began to cater more and more to the same kind of guild mentality that you are expressing here. We all know what happened eventually.

One aspect of play - the guild aspect - should not be able trump the others in every given situation just because a guild wants it to. I can understand some competition at the guild level for raid bosses, but I can't support the effort of guilds banding together to monopolize content that doesn't need a guild or a raid to kill. Droga is primarly group intended content, though skilled soloists of certain classes may also manage it.

EQ was designed to be a cooperative multiplayer game. In my opinion, this "locking down" goes contrary to that spirit. It's selfish and mean. Not "mean" like "cruel" - "mean" like "small and debased".

Oh and by the way, the fact that someone disagrees with your point of view does not mean they are "crying". I shoudn't have to explain that to a mature individual.

well i'm sorry you feel that way, but again, its not about YOU or your friend. if you want/expect everything to be available to you at the exact moment that you decide you want said item, then you need to go play an offline game where nobody will ever be camping something you want when you want it.

try to really understand this next part, it may be rough; Guilds are not locking down camps to prevent you from getting pixels! Guilds are locking down camps so that their members can get specific items before moving on. Before Kunark was released, multiple guilds made plans to take certain camps, it was not just one or two or three guilds, but MULTIPLE! and it was NOT done to cockblock you from getting pixels that you feel you should have right now.

at this point im convinced your trolling me because you can not be this retarded.

Kika Maslyaka

04-18-2011, 01:47 AM

at this point im convinced your trolling me because you can not be this retarded.

well let me draw a conclusion too:
You must be trolling, because you can not be this retarded

Not everyone in the world is a greedy elitist like you and your guild

Pudge

04-18-2011, 01:48 AM

solution: red99

Curmudgen

04-18-2011, 02:28 AM

Bassracerx

04-18-2011, 07:43 AM

Dynaguy

04-18-2011, 09:05 AM

solution: red99

God I get tired of reading this bullshit in every thread about pve issues...

If anything, pvp server will make a guild even more of a requirement for holding camps, and make it even harder for a loner to get a shot at high value camps...

Bubbles

04-18-2011, 12:03 PM

I don't think its an issue of not understanding Vendar. She and I, and quite a few others simply completely disagree with you. The game as originally designed and envisioned was about many kinds of play group, solo, guild. As it progressed, SOE began to cater more and more to the same kind of guild mentality that you are expressing here. We all know what happened eventually.

One aspect of play - the guild aspect - should not be able trump the others in every given situation just because a guild wants it to. I can understand some competition at the guild level for raid bosses, but I can't support the effort of guilds banding together to monopolize content that doesn't need a guild or a raid to kill. Droga is primarly group intended content, though skilled soloists of certain classes may also manage it.

EQ was designed to be a cooperative multiplayer game. In my opinion, this "locking down" goes contrary to that spirit. It's selfish and mean. Not "mean" like "cruel" - "mean" like "small and debased".

Oh and by the way, the fact that someone disagrees with your point of view does not mean they are "crying". I shoudn't have to explain that to a mature individual.

99.8% of Droga is completely and utterly uncamped. No one is depriving anyone of the ability to XP and rake in the random drops if they are in the zone.

Of course, if you are completely distraught because the one or two items you are seeking in the clear back of the zone is camped 24/7, then you must have not zoned into Lower Guk in the last 12 months...

The Idol of the Thorned will always be there, and the CoS isnt getting 'nerfed' for months. These items will eventually be 100% available to all, but even without guild interference, the camp will be 'camped' 24-7.

If you wanted to be proactive, just roam around the zone and kill goblins.. I'm sure there's someone in EC or Droga that would be willing to swap you their CoS for an Earring of Essence or Gauntlets of Potence, both of which drop randomly throughout the zone. Since ReasonableHumanBeings(tm) wrestled the original camp from TMO, stuff hit the open market at very reasonable prices. You could easily be getting XP in Karnors or Seb or Chardok or CoM or wherever and grind up enough cash and items to score a CoS in likely the same (or less) time than it would take you to camp the dang thing.

Or you could sit in RnF and see how much closer that gets you to your goal.

Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin

04-18-2011, 01:05 PM

Yesterday my mage friend and I were again spending our day in Droga when we found the CoS camp empty for the first time in weeks. We buffed and made up his pet, cleared the left bodyguard room and just as we were finished I was nuked by an add for the last bit of my health, and he had to gate.

By that time a group of the guild Divinity had arrived and must have seen what had happened. Euron sent me a tell and let me know he'd hold our room for us until we got back. Once my mage friend and I invis'd down and got to our room, Ninik (I apologize if I spelled your name wrong!) gave me a 90% rez and even buffed us AND the mage's pet.

Not only did we split the camp (we had the left room, half of middle and they had everything else including Rokgus) but they were civil, pleasant and extremely cooperative. We were able to spend the entire day sharing the camp.

Each group got one CoS by the time the server restarted for the second time that day and the Divinity group went to join a guild raid.

My mage friend and I both got a CoS by the end of the night, and by the time I left, the group had merged with the only other group in Droga who had asked to be in line for the camp, three people our level who were in a lower level guild.

I am very grateful to Euron, Ninik and the other members of Divinity. They were all exceedingly pleasant, cooperative and hospitable. They let us share the camp, something that we haven't been able to do since we began our adventure in Droga about a week ago.

Not only did they handle this the way I would have hoped a higher end guild in this community would, but they exceeded my expectations. The members of Divinity in Droga really went above and beyond to accommodate us lower levels in this very popular camp!

Vendar

04-18-2011, 02:29 PM

Not everyone in the world is a greedy elitist like you and your guild

dont get angry pal, no need for such harsh language. and just so i understand you, you're saying that anyone that prepares a strategy to obtain items ahead of time instead of assuming things will be open when ever the fuck i feel like strolling into droga is a greedy elitist like me and my guildies? amirite?

get a fucking life kid (or go play WoW as im sure you would cum in your pants for instanced dungeons or any other EZmode feature)

/puke

Vendar

04-18-2011, 02:38 PM

Well after reading this I sure am bummed. I was figureing to get up to high enough level on my iksar necro to get over to the CoS camp and eventually get one before the nerf.

Seems that if its true that multiple guilds have designs to pass off to each other that the only hope is that the drop rate is quick enough for them all to get satisfied before the nerf time comes. Maybe then I could get in.

But.....then comes the "lets sell it" bunch. Between the guilds equipping their own, and stocking up to sell at the eventual inflated prices I just dont see my pickup group self having much of a chance. Bummer.

I will still go over there when level appropriate and hang around looking to join the group though. Who knows maybe 1 out of 100 times they will let me in.

What is level appropriate for that camp anyway? Group of low 30's? Mid thirties? It was never camped when I started playing as it was allready nerfed.

do not be bummed, but do not act like your entitled or owed anything either (not saying u are, just sayin). I'm sure everyone will be able to camp a CoS eventually. as far as guilds passing to each other, thats just simply not true as most of the top guilds are in direct competition with each other. Honestly, if i were you, i woulda wait to randomguild001 only has 4 or 5 players in droga and then simply (and politely) ask if you could have a spot on the list in exchange for helping them hold down the camp. I have heard of 3 guilds (TMO, TR, Divinity) that have all allowed non guildies to join the group and acquire their items IF they are willing to help hold down the camp AND wait in line (obviously this means that people who come after you do not cut u in line). the kids that show up and expect to get the VERY NEXT drop are the ones that cause the problem and ruin it for the fine people like yourself.

dont like inflated prices? dont pay them.

as far as levels, i'd guess around 40+

honestly i wish you the best of luck, its a great item and the wait will only make you love it that much more. you'd be pleasantly surprised how far some kind words will get you.

Vendar

04-18-2011, 02:44 PM

what about a single file line of players most people see the situation and leave people that want the camp should just stay there. maybe even form groups and try to agress the mob before the campholders as by the current server rules?

players can make a single file line screenshot and then post pic on forums that lets the order. if the group camping needs an additional player to kill the mob they have to take SOMEONE from the line (not the last in line) if not they can 1 try to kill the spawn anyways if they wipe they lose the camp?

players should single file line infront of the camps and just let them know "hey im here and i got dibs when your done NOT your friend"

i laughed so fucking hard picturing 12 players standing in a line like a bunch of complete douchebags. heres why your utterly retarded idea fails.. class requirements dumbass. if you play a warrior and we need a healer, then im not inviting you, period. and if your smart ass reply is something along the lines of ''well then invite the next cleric'' i say fawk that. i would much rather pick a cleric that i know and trust over a stranger. what if Chantel was the next cleric in line? i'd feel safer with effing druid heals and would skip over the cleric in a second.

gawd you are fucking retarded too. go back to playing WoW if u want instanced dungeons so bad, this is Everquest, not EZmode!

thank you for your time, you may now go back to accumulating your tears.

Kika Maslyaka

04-18-2011, 03:57 PM

dont get angry pal, no need for such harsh language. and just so i understand you, you're saying that anyone that prepares a strategy to obtain items ahead of time instead of assuming things will be open when ever the fuck i feel like strolling into droga is a greedy elitist like me and my guildies? amirite?

get a fucking life kid (or go play WoW as im sure you would cum in your pants for instanced dungeons or any other EZmode feature)

/puke

no child, you are the fucking scum sucker. Open your mouth so i can shit in it, and you can taste how your brains feels like when they spill out that garbage inside them.

go go play some other retarded game like Lineage or some other garbage, where your fucking attidute comes from.

Swish

04-18-2011, 04:14 PM

(this thread)

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-dog-pictures-my-dog-spits-fire-balls.jpg

DoucLangur

04-18-2011, 05:18 PM

What happened to the play nice policy? If someone comes by the camp and is willing to sit there until you are done, why not let them have the camp?
[..]
Can't we all just get along? :D

This.

EQ was designed to be a cooperative multiplayer game. In my opinion, this "locking down" goes contrary to that spirit. It's selfish and mean. Not "mean" like "cruel" - "mean" like "small and debased".

And this.

It's really as easy as that: If someone comes by, and you are in a camp that you can hold with anyone really, invite them into group, let them in line and camp the item together with them. Stop being selfish (or guild-selfish), it's just poor attitude.

Vendar

04-18-2011, 05:40 PM

no child, you are the fucking scum sucker. Open your mouth so i can shit in it, and you can taste how your brains feels like when they spill out that garbage inside them.

go go play some other retarded game like Lineage or some other garbage, where your fucking attidute comes from.

child? lulz.

so you run out of valid points in an argument and immediately drop down to the level of 3rd grade insults, who's the real child here? one day i hope to be as awesome as you bro!

and btw, before you go off talking shit, learn 2 spell; its spelled Attitude*

Have a wonderful day raging over pixels that you feel are owed to you while i'm clicking away my CoS and thinking about you

<3

Kassel

04-18-2011, 05:43 PM

Kika Maslyaka

04-18-2011, 06:06 PM

child? lulz.

so you run out of valid points in an argument and immediately drop down to the level of 3rd grade insults, who's the real child here? one day i hope to be as awesome as you bro!

and btw, before you go off talking shit, learn 2 spell; its spelled Attitude*

Have a wonderful day raging over pixels that you feel are owed to you while i'm clicking away my CoS and thinking about you

<3

you never had any valid points to begin with.
All I heard from you was "I won't share anything cause its MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE! MINE!" - Pixel whore

"learn 2 spell"? ur rox0r d00d

fucktard troll

Bubbles

04-18-2011, 06:25 PM

I have heard of 3 guilds (TMO, TR, Divinity) that have all allowed non guildies to join the group and acquire their items IF they are willing to help hold down the camp AND wait in line (obviously this means that people who come after you do not cut u in line). the kids that show up and expect to get the VERY NEXT drop are the ones that cause the problem and ruin it for the fine people like yourself.

The weekend Vesica originally held the camp we almost exclusively had a non-guilded entity holding down one of the four "camps", too.

Bolded part is so true lol. In the day i was there i'd see 8-9 hour stretches where there was 0 idols/lockets/Cos's. Its certainly not something i'd ever want to go back and camp again. Place was a nightmare.

Vendar

04-18-2011, 08:09 PM

you never had any valid points to begin with.
All I heard from you was "I won't share anything cause its MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE! MINE!" - Pixel whore

"learn 2 spell"? ur rox0r d00d

fucktard troll

ok this is the last time im going to waste my time with you since you've demonstrated an severe inability to spell, read, and process information.

You need to take a deep breath and calm down, i dont want to be the reason you are no longer able to form your thoughts into complete and coherent sentences. I assumed everyone on here was an adult, and you have shown me that my assumption was incorrect. so do me a favor and get your mommy's or daddy's permission before you continue reading.

every post i've made here talks about people that suffer from ''RIGHT NAOW'' syndrome (ie: YOU). you are no more important than anyone else who plays on this server, and as such you are owed nothing. Guilds that made plans to get certain items for the guild enacted those plans when kunark was released, you had no plan, or, you were unable (ie: failed) to set your plans into motion.

furthermore, i dunno where you get off calling me selfish, or a pixel whore, because if you did actually have the ability to read and process information in that tiny little brain of yours, you would have read and processed that the camp has been taken (not Given) over by at least 4 guilds now. so it's not one guild locking down the camp. And lastly, if you weren't learning impaired you would have also read that at least 3 of those 4 guild DID INVITE NON-GUILDIES to help hold down the camp in exchange for a spot on the list.

YOUR problem is that you expect everything you want exactly how you want it, and again, to that i say you would feel right at home playing WoW with instanced dungeons, or maybe an offline game since that way you won't ever have to deal with other players that are possibly already doing whateverthefuck it was you wanted to do.

<3

TL;DR - Kika still crying, Vendar still dropping bombs of education on said noob.

Kika Maslyaka

04-18-2011, 08:27 PM

ok this is the last time im going to waste my time with you since you've demonstrated an severe inability to spell, read, and process information.

You need to take a deep breath and calm down, i dont want to be the reason you are no longer able to form your thoughts into complete and coherent sentences. I assumed everyone on here was an adult, and you have shown me that my assumption was incorrect. so do me a favor and get your mommy's or daddy's permission before you continue reading.

every post i've made here talks about people that suffer from ''RIGHT NAOW'' syndrome (ie: YOU). you are no more important than anyone else who plays on this server, and as such you are owed nothing. Guilds that made plans to get certain items for the guild enacted those plans when kunark was released, you had no plan, or, you were unable (ie: failed) to set your plans into motion.

furthermore, i dunno where you get off calling me selfish, or a pixel whore, because if you did actually have the ability to read and process information in that tiny little brain of yours, you would have read and processed that the camp has been taken (not Given) over by at least 4 guilds now. so it's not one guild locking down the camp. And lastly, if you weren't learning impaired you would have also read that at least 3 of those 4 guild DID INVITE NON-GUILDIES to help hold down the camp in exchange for a spot on the list.

YOUR problem is that you expect everything you want exactly how you want it, and again, to that i say you would feel right at home playing WoW with instanced dungeons, or maybe an offline game since that way you won't ever have to deal with other players that are possibly already doing whateverthefuck it was you wanted to do.

<3

TL;DR - Kika still crying, Vendar still dropping bombs of education on said noob.

TL;DR - Vendar (still mentally impaired) says "ME and MY guild owes all the loot on the server, and us and only us decides who gets any, when we feel like it"

Me to Vendar: go play WoW greedy dumb ass, so you can have entire instance just for yourself, and never have to deal with other players

Mcbard

04-19-2011, 03:09 PM

I sure wish vendars guild had all the loot on the server.. That would rock!

Yinaltin

04-19-2011, 04:30 PM

Your playing a game that is based on a game that already existed 11 years ago. The rules were already established, you knew when you signed up that it is trying to recreate as accurately as possible the way it was 11 years ago. IF you don't like the way the server is, don't play this one, or play a different game

this !

Nagash

04-19-2011, 05:33 PM

If you knew what kind of coordination, persistence and intense time dedication it took to secure and hold something like the jade prod camp, there's no chance you could objectively say that anyone should be able to just walk up and get in line.

If you knew what kind of coordination, persistence and intense time dedication it took the Nazi regime to try to exterminate millions of people... You see where I'm getting at, your statement holds no ground whatsoever.

Nagash/Petitpas

Cars

04-19-2011, 05:58 PM

If you knew what kind of coordination, persistence and intense time dedication it took the Nazi regime to try to exterminate millions of people... You see where I'm getting at, your statement holds no ground whatsoever.

Nagash/Petitpas

your comparing holding an item camp... to gear up guildies and friends... to nazi germany???

Nagash

04-19-2011, 06:01 PM

your comparing holding an item camp... to gear up guildies and friends... to nazi germany???

Nope, I'm just showing how flawed the logic he used to justify guild camping is.

Nagash/Petitpas

Arclyte

04-19-2011, 06:14 PM

Godwin's Law: When you just can't come up with a legitimate rebuttal™

Nagash

04-19-2011, 06:29 PM

Quirk's Exception

soup

04-19-2011, 07:04 PM

Nope, I'm just showing how flawed the logic he used to justify guild camping is.

Nagash/Petitpas

Yeah but you did no such thing. FFS, you ended your statement with "you see what I'm getting at"

Well, no, we don't, because it makes no sense. He said if you knew the time and dedication it takes to hold the camp then you wouldn't say anyone who just walks up should get in line. Then you said "If you knew x, y, and z about Nazi Germany then... you see what I'm getting at."

You can't just try and start making a point and then take it nowhere and then say "See what I mean? I proved my point perfectly." You never finished demonstrating the parallel in the example.

YendorLootmonkey

04-19-2011, 07:18 PM

We all have the same choices to make... whether it be to join guild X to raid zone Y to get loot Z, to organize a group of friends to camp out in a strategic location for when the server goes down to beat guild A to holding camp B in zone C, to deciding how much personal time we want to put into this game tied to our computer chair, batphone, pager, smoke signals, wtfever.

If you choose differently then another, you have to accept those consequences. There are opportunity costs for every decision you make. You can sit there unguilded and cry about never having a chance at planar loot, or you can go app to a guild, be a team player, raid, and get the things you want. You can sit there and cry about not having a chance at a camp, or you can gather up your own guild, friends, whoever, and wait for them to AFK out and lose the camp.

Same opportunity. Same choices. Do with the game what you want. But don't cry about other people's choices cockblocking you, when in reality it is the choices YOU made that are cockblocking yourself.

Kika Maslyaka

04-19-2011, 07:26 PM

what Nagash is saying is that, just because you put time, effort, and dedication into something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair.

Hence the Nazi example.

Shiftin

04-19-2011, 07:35 PM

Well said yendor. Lol at some of the leaps in logic in this thread.

Humerox

04-19-2011, 07:37 PM

no one is monopolizing camps to deny content.

the camps WILL be passed off.

try coordinating with whatever guild is holding whatever camp, to get an idea of the timeline. i know of several camps that were given up due to raids, unavailability of guild members to hold a particular camp, etc.

try communicating a bit. if you don't get a definitive answer one day, try the next.

Klyre

04-19-2011, 10:05 PM

what Nagash is saying is that, just because you put time, effort, and dedication into something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair.

Hence the Nazi example.

I am not one to usually be questioning, or trollish. But I must say that everyone in this thread is now dumber for what you just said. I mean if this is the totality of your argument....Huh? :confused:

"just because you put time, effort, and dedication into something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair."

Really? This is the basis of all life to work for what you get. The only thing in there that you might argue is "fair". Ummmm but that's subjective...

I think I really am dumber from reading this...

YendorLootmonkey

04-19-2011, 10:36 PM

what Nagash is saying is that, just because you put time, effort, and dedication into something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair.

And just because you're standing next in line for something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair. Otherwise I could get laid a lot more by forming lines...

Kika Maslyaka

04-19-2011, 11:30 PM

I am not one to usually be questioning, or trollish. But I must say that everyone in this thread is now dumber for what you just said. I mean if this is the totality of your argument....Huh? :confused:

"just because you put time, effort, and dedication into something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair."

Really? This is the basis of all life to work for what you get. The only thing in there that you might argue is "fair". Ummmm but that's subjective...

I think I really am dumber from reading this...

you need understand a difference between putting a blind effort into something, and fruitfully working towards a goal.

What Nagash is saying, in simple terms - just because you have been moving 500 pound rock from location A to location B for duration of 6 months, doesn't mean that apple trees will suddenly grow in between them, or a God will smile on you and say - "that was some cool rock moving, i think i will make you a president of this country!"

In other words - blind effort doesn't lead to anything.

Kika Maslyaka

04-19-2011, 11:33 PM

And just because you're standing next in line for something - doesn't mean you are in fact entitled to it, or its right or fair. Otherwise I could get laid a lot more by forming lines...

..So tales goes like this. There was this gold mine which was a communal property. And every miner could go into the mine, work for an hour, and carry out whatever amount of gold he managed to obtain.
Then some group of miners decided that they will block the entrance to the mine, so they and only they can get any gold, and rest can just go to hell...

Humerox

04-20-2011, 01:29 AM

.Then some group of miners decided that they will block the entrance to the mine, so they and only they can get any gold, and rest can just go to hell...

or...some groups of miners decided to work together and get their gold first.

no one is getting denied. people are QQing because they didn't prepare/plan on getting whateveritis first. or they don't want to communicate with others about when they can get some whateveritis too.

Nagash

04-20-2011, 06:01 AM

I'm not going to hold people's hand if they can't understand a basic example and draw some obvious conclusions from it, I do that for kids and will have the courtesy of considering you all as adults.

But back to the OP's point as I haven't said anything about this yet.

I would like to draw your attention to this post: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2653. This ruleset only refers to "player or group", nowhere is it mentionned guild.
Therefore, bringing the argument of saying "Yes but our group is a permanent (understand "over a ridiculous period of time" as we're not talking hours here) rotation of guildmates" is just trying to exploit this with no care for the other players/guilds on the server.

This doesn't mean either that a camp should be handed straight as soon as someone comes and asks for it but there is a huge gap between these 2 lasts examples. From my point of view, these two positions are equally ridiculous (but I haven't seen anyone taking the later one) and I believe the balance is somewhere in the middle.

no one is getting denied.

This is where I believe a lot of people disagree with you.

Nagash/Petitpas

Humerox

04-20-2011, 06:09 AM

This is where I believe a lot of people disagree with you.

They may be being denied when they want the camps...but everyone else has had to wait also.

The camps will be passed off. Everyone will eventually get a shot. No one is destroying pieces to deny content.

I also most certainly believe that guilds - people working together to achieve common goals - are greater than the individual in this game. For example...if guild B wants a shot at a camp guild A has...it's not hard to coordinate and work toward getting that camp. If you're not guilded...well, sorry...but the game rewards you last.

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 08:30 AM

..So tales goes like this. There was this gold mine which was a communal property. And every miner could go into the mine, work for an hour, and carry out whatever amount of gold he managed to obtain.
Then some group of miners decided that they will block the entrance to the mine, so they and only they can get any gold, and rest can just go to hell...

Sorry, didn't realize everything in EQ was 'communal property'.

I'm here for my Cloak of Flames handout, please!

Nagash

04-20-2011, 09:00 AM

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 10:42 AM

For the moment, I can't add more than what I said as I seriously doubt this post is going anywhere. Everyone seems to firmly sit on one side of the fence trying to push it as much as they can to get the biggest possible share of the field and refusing to acknowledge other's point of view, even less understand it.
So on this note, Yendor can I ask you what's the name of the charming brunette in your signature? Got me drooling everytime you post. I sure wouldn't be interested in confirming the part of your sig quote about rangers but can't say the same about the part involving her :P

Nagash/Petitpas

That's Gina Ryder.

But back on topic, the gap between the two viewpoints is because the two sides are playing completely different games. The casual gamers are playing by a 'everyone should get a fair shot at everything' ruleset and the power gamers are playing by a 'rewards should be directly related to time/effort invested' ruleset.

This has always been the difference in mindsets ever since the beginning of MMORPGs designed in this fashion.

Kika Maslyaka

04-20-2011, 11:27 AM

Sorry, didn't realize everything in EQ was 'communal property'.

I'm here for my Cloak of Flames handout, please!

put a little more thought into it, before you draw such conclusions...
The LOOT is a private property. The CAMPS are communal property.
A right to a camp doesn't equal free handouts.
You still have to camp - put in your own effort into it to get it, but this doesn't mean you can sit here for days, getting 2nd drop, 3rd drop, 76th drop, until you, your friends, your guild, all their alts, and your dog got 3 each, and then another dozen to sell for cash.

An argument- "I will get my loot FIRST, and they will get their EVENTUALLY, WHEN I AM DONE" - is what I call GREED.

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 11:51 AM

put a little more thought into it, before you draw such conclusions...
The LOOT is a private property. The CAMPS are communal property.
A right to a camp doesn't equal free handouts.
You still have to camp - put in your own effort into it to get it, but this doesn't mean you can sit here for days, getting 2nd drop, 3rd drop, 76th drop, until you, your friends, your guild, all their alts, and your dog got 3 each, and then another dozen to sell for cash.

An argument- "I will get my loot FIRST, and they will get their EVENTUALLY, WHEN I AM DONE" - is what I call GREED.

No more greedy than showing up and saying 'okay GTFO, my turn to have these loots!!!!"

We all had the same opportunity to obtain and hold the camp. We all made different choices about how to pursue those opportunities on Kunark launch night. If your ass was not heading directly for whatever camp you're talking about wanting now the second Kunark launched, with whatever friends you needed to hold the camp as long as it took to make sure they all got hooked up, then you had other priorities that night and you need to accept the opportunity costs of the choices you made, just like the rest of us have to.

Mcbard

04-20-2011, 11:58 AM

This thread was started by a communist and is full of pinkos.

Reported all of you sympathizers to the F.B.I. goodluck!

Kika Maslyaka

04-20-2011, 12:31 PM

No more greedy than showing up and saying 'okay GTFO, my turn to have these loots!!!!"

We all had the same opportunity to obtain and hold the camp. We all made different choices about how to pursue those opportunities on Kunark launch night. If your ass was not heading directly for whatever camp you're talking about wanting now the second Kunark launched, with whatever friends you needed to hold the camp as long as it took to make sure they all got hooked up, then you had other priorities that night and you need to accept the opportunity costs of the choices you made, just like the rest of us have to.

yeah guided by information you not suppose to even have, since in 99 no one knew what was going to drop, much less where.
You should consider playing on a PvP99 when it comes out- that's where "the might is right" argument goes without questioning.

This thread was started by a communist and is full of pinkos.

Reported all of you sympathizers to the F.B.I. goodluck!

someone needs to take a Political Science 101... otherwise I can just easily call you a fascist :p

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 12:51 PM

yeah guided by information you not suppose to even have, since in 99 no one knew what was going to drop, much less where.

Irrelevant. Again, we all had equal opportunity to research the 11-year-old info, and equal opportunity to plan and execute accordingly on launch night. That is where the equality ended, and the actual 'ability to implement the plan' came into play.

There's nothing about might-makes-right about it. If you want the camp you could go sit there and wait for whoever is there to F up and leave the camp unattended. You choose not to. You could camp out your character at the camp with some friends when you hear the server is going down to attempt to beat others to claiming the camp upon logging in. You choose not to. Hell, you could app to one of the guilds holding down the camp, help them out, and be the recipient of the loot when it drops, and then promptly gate and de-guild. Again, you choose not to.

Instead, in lieu of actually putting in the aforementioned effort to get the things you want, you'd rather just stroll up and decide it's your turn to have it. Now who's seemingly greedy?

It's all dependent on your own perspective I suppose.

Rais

04-20-2011, 01:31 PM

If anything I would he happy with the 20 mins to reclaim camp rule gone. Servers coming down or anything like that was just like eq live. There was never any rule set to reclaim a camp.

I didn't even know about this rule till kunark. I despise holding a camp that isn't for exp.da idol? Hated it. Thex mallet quest? Hated it. Cos/locket? Hated it.

It gods/dragons are fair game after a server patch or crash,so should camps. If you can't log in faster than the other guy running for whateve camp,though shit. I've had camps lost because of this,and no knowing this 20min rule. If I'm gone from camp it should be treated as a open door mob and who ever gets ,wins.

mwatt

04-20-2011, 02:51 PM

Irrelevant. Again, we all had equal opportunity to research the 11-year-old info, and equal opportunity to plan and execute accordingly on launch night. That is where the equality ended, and the actual 'ability to implement the plan' came into play.

There's nothing about might-makes-right about it. If you want the camp you could go sit there and wait for whoever is there to F up and leave the camp unattended. You choose not to. You could camp out your character at the camp with some friends when you hear the server is going down to attempt to beat others to claiming the camp upon logging in. You choose not to. Hell, you could app to one of the guilds holding down the camp, help them out, and be the recipient of the loot when it drops, and then promptly gate and de-guild. Again, you choose not to.

Instead, in lieu of actually putting in the aforementioned effort to get the things you want, you'd rather just stroll up and decide it's your turn to have it. Now who's seemingly greedy?

It's all dependent on your own perspective I suppose.

Just because one can do somethng, doesn't mean one should.

There is indeed an element of might makes right here. When a group of people band together into a force strong enough and sustained enough to effectively deny other individuals or groups the opportunity to access a resource, I'd call it might makes right.

You give several examples of how "denied" individuals might work around the restrictions imposed by the "mighty". These are good ideas, but they don't have bearing on the argument of whether or not the "lock down" behaviors we are discussing are reasonable.

Shiftin

04-20-2011, 04:16 PM

You guys should really stop glossing over the distinction between intentionally denying people something and that being a biproduct of an extremely limited resource being consumed for a very direct benefit.

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 04:18 PM

Just because one can do somethng, doesn't mean one should.

There is indeed an element of might makes right here. When a group of people band together into a force strong enough and sustained enough to effectively deny other individuals or groups the opportunity to access a resource, I'd call it might makes right.

You give several examples of how "denied" individuals might work around the restrictions imposed by the "mighty". These are good ideas, but they don't have bearing on the argument of whether or not the "lock down" behaviors we are discussing are reasonable.

As I said before, two completely different games are being played here. The casual gamers don't have the drive or time that the power gamers do, so they cannot compete on the same level. All they can do is try to twist the rules in their favor. The power gamers believe that loot is distributed according to drive/time, so they play towards that end, competing with other like-minded players, meanwhile the casuals are caught in the crossfire.

One style of play is not more right than the other.

All it takes is one or two people to catch a guild with their pants down, leaving a camp unattended. That has nothing to do with might, and everything to do with persistence.

Dr4z3r

04-20-2011, 04:39 PM

Serin

04-20-2011, 05:31 PM

I've seen this from both perspectives.. Personally, I believe the whole thing could be solved by just a little consideration for other people.. The fact is I've passed off camps to other people and I've passed on camps to guildies/friends.

If you want a more realistic perspective think of it this way. You're in line at a concert to try to get tickets and there's a limit of 2 per person. You walk up and see 2 people in front of you and realize there's a supply of about 10 front row tickets.. So, you measure your odds and say "Okay, this is a pretty good situation.. I still have a shot at front row tickets, and the line should be fairly short" An hour later the guy at the front of the line sees a friend and says "HAI MAN How's It Goin?!" the other guy says "Oh, Hey.. Yeah.. I just woke up. Guess I wasn't the first person here.. you mind if i just stand behind you?" and the other guy says "Oh, hell yeah.. That's fine dude.." In another hour the same thing happens, and again, and again, and again..

How would you react, would you happily chew on the crap sandwich? or would you speak out and say something?

That's the situation that the people who started this post are frustrated with. It's not the fact that your guild want's <Insert contested item name here>, cause most people could give a crap. It's that when they walk up there's 4 people at a camp and every time one person gets their item, they leave and 1-2 more people show up and jump right in front of the people who have been sitting there waiting patiently for 3 hours for the 2 people they originally saw to get their fill.

Now for the solution.. Like I said, a little consideration would help a lot. If you see someone sitting there waiting and it's a guild camp.. You might say

"Hey, I'm going to be here for another 3-4 hours and I've already promised the camp to a few guildies after that and I've got no idea how long they'll be on but they're usually online pretty late.. So, if you want to wait I'll warn you.. It'll be at least 8 hours."

Or!

You could do what I do.. And if someone's actually sitting with me waiting for the camp and they're there, at keyboard, and ready to jump.. They get it when I'm done.. Why? you ask. Because the person who's not sitting there at the camp isn't showing any dedication and is pretty much just flat out asking for a camp/loot handed to them on a silver platter just because they have a tag under their name that matches yours. If I'm taking 6 hours out of my life to camp some ridiculously rare spawn and instead of helping me they decide that they have better things to do and want to exp instead of sitting with me and helping, and then ask "Hey, can you just tell me when you're about to leave?"

As I said, a little consideration goes a long way.. Just take this as my whole contribution to this siituation..

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 06:01 PM

You could do what I do.. And if someone's actually sitting with me waiting for the camp and they're there, at keyboard, and ready to jump.. They get it when I'm done.. Why? you ask. Because the person who's not sitting there at the camp isn't showing any dedication and is pretty much just flat out asking for a camp/loot handed to them on a silver platter just because they have a tag under their name that matches yours.

But that doesn't get your guild geared up for X zone or Y encounter. And that's the difference between a power gamer mindset "gotta get the guild keyed for Howling Stones!" and a casual gamer mindset "screw my guildmates, they ain't here... this guy is. I don't care if my guild gets into Howling Stones more quickly."

To tweak your analogy a bit:

There is a line at a concert to try to get tickets. There is no limit. The more of your group of friends gets in, the better concerts you can all get into later on down the line.

You orchestrate with your friends some ingenious plan to coordinate a bunch of people and schedules to make sure you are there first.

You get there first and eventually there are people waiting behind you. These people cannot help you get into better concerts later on down the line. Some of your group of friends show up, you let them in line in front of you so they can get tickets, too, because that benefits your entire group of friends.

The guys waiting behind you can get their tickets later. If they wanted tickets now, they should have came up with their own plan to get there first.

Shiftin

04-20-2011, 06:12 PM

If you want a more realistic perspective think of it this way. You're in line at a concert to try to get tickets and there's a limit of 2 per person. You walk up and see 2 people in front of you and realize there's a supply of about 10 front row tickets.. So, you measure your odds and say "Okay, this is a pretty good situation.. I still have a shot at front row tickets, and the line should be fairly short" An hour later the guy at the front of the line sees a friend and says "HAI MAN How's It Goin?!" the other guy says "Oh, Hey.. Yeah.. I just woke up. Guess I wasn't the first person here.. you mind if i just stand behind you?" and the other guy says "Oh, hell yeah.. That's fine dude.." In another hour the same thing happens, and again, and again, and again..

How would you react, would you happily chew on the crap sandwich? or would you speak out and say something?

That's the situation that the people who started this post are frustrated with. It's not the fact that your guild want's <Insert contested item name here>, cause most people could give a crap. It's that when they walk up there's 4 people at a camp and every time one person gets their item, they leave and 1-2 more people show up and jump right in front of the people who have been sitting there waiting patiently for 3 hours for the 2 people they originally saw to get their fill.

Now for the solution.. Like I said, a little consideration would help a lot. If you see someone sitting there waiting and it's a guild camp.. You might say

"Hey, I'm going to be here for another 3-4 hours and I've already promised the camp to a few guildies after that and I've got no idea how long they'll be on but they're usually online pretty late.. So, if you want to wait I'll warn you.. It'll be at least 8 hours."
Or!

I want to take this in 2 parts. It's a good post but slightly misguided because what happenned to secure one of the most contested camps in kunark wasn't made public before Kunark opened (for obvious reasons).

Leading up to kunark, we did more than a few walkthroughs of how to get to specific zones and camps within those zones on other EMU servers to drill it into people. We tested the fastest routes, built backup plans and sent a team with built in redundancies to both xalgoz and chancellor. So you understand the margins we were working with, we missed chancellor by 2 seconds to a Fusion bard and "easily" got xalgoz (by about 45 seconds). Teams were sent to other camps in similar fashion. All told, we had probably 30 people with specific instructions and redundancies to attempt to capture high priority targets. Without fail, these were pretty much the first 30 people with howling stones keys on the server.

It wasn't just us - some of the highest value camps went to Fusion, TMO and divinity in a similar manner because we all, as guilds (playing together with shared goals and values) decided these things were more important to us than the GM event loot, exploring, etc.

We had a minimum of 3 people in kaesora until we all had our xalgoz fangs and people rotated in to take their (sometimes extremely long) turns sacrificing experience to ensure we could key not just our individual toons, but our friends and guildmates so that we would actually be able to form groups to crawl the dungeon. When we got all our xalgoz fangs... we left.

We also had people watching the chancellor camp and as soon as fusion messed up and lost the camp, we were able to do the same thing at chancellor. This meant 2-3 people at a time sitting for 8-12 hours (or longer before the patch to fix the drop rate) in a room not getting exp, staring at a chair ready to answer AFK checks. Understand that if we don't pass it off to our guildmates, we have useless keys. The analogy of guildies "waking up late and cutting in line" is not particularly apt because to get a spot in line for a key, you had to show up at the appointed time, often times rolling out of another guild assignment or waking up in the middle of the night to take your minimum 8 hour shift (done again to ensure redundancy).

As to the second bolded part, that's exactly what happenned. I had plenty of people wander up and ask to get the next prod. I politely explained the length of time I had been there, how many people we had to key, and could list the next 24 hours worth of people who would be there. I let them know roughly how long it would take us to get keyed and that they should try back after that point.

The other option, as I explained, is not viable in this instance as it negates our ability to efficiently make groups (one of the ways the list for keys was prioritized), but is perfectly understandable in many situations.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation. Our interactions with folks over these camps were significantly more pleasant and reasoned than the people actually showing up late to the party now demanding to be let in.

Serin

04-20-2011, 06:32 PM

Guess I'm a liar. <.< but just so you understand my mindset.. It doesn't matter to me how ingenious your plan is, or how orchestrated and complex it is. To be perfectly honest it wouldn't matter to them if you set off a smoke bomb behind the crowd, had a gigantic tv screen playing porn to catch their interest and then they descended from an orbiting satellite and then parachuted on top of a sky scraper and were lowered down by pulleys manned by the strongest "little people" in the world. Just to let them get in line before everyone. (that pulls into an entirely different issue though because you refer to them "standing in front of you" when in reality they're standing in front of all the people behind you while you get yours and tip your cap and leave.. sounds a bit worse in that context eh?)

It all boils down to a concept that's been happening for years and years ... In the words of every grade schooler at some point "You're Cutting! QQ"

What's happening is exactly as I've described it. Now, Please note I am not referring to mobs that give access to other areas.. IE: Xalgoz and the Sarnak dude.. I understand that key mobs are special cases.. Those items are naturally limited to one per person in the guild <.< (I get item, i turn in, i have no desire to get any more) I guess I could have explained that better =/ my apologies.

The items that I believe are in question are vanity/limited use items that are pretty much for fun/cash. That guilds are applying this sense of "Guild privilege" to in order to make their individual member's platinum coffers swell while casual players are told to take a number, and have a crap sandwich. (Or at least i'm referring to them)

Btw, before anyone says "Zomg you said you weren't saying anymore" <.< Sorry, I'm easily baited into response =)

Nagash

04-20-2011, 06:33 PM

Leading up to kunark, we did more than a few walkthroughs of how to get to specific zones and camps within those zones on other EMU servers to drill it into people. We tested the fastest routes, built backup plans and sent a team with built in redundancies to both xalgoz and chancellor. So you understand the margins we were working with, we missed chancellor by 2 seconds to a Fusion bard and "easily" got xalgoz (by about 45 seconds). Teams were sent to other camps in similar fashion. All told, we had probably 30 people with specific instructions and redundancies to attempt to capture high priority targets. Without fail, these were pretty much the first 30 people with howling stones keys on the server.

To bring that back to the concert analogy (quite a good one), you simply planned ahead to avoid traffick and park your car in the parking lot before everybody so you could be first in the queue. Doesn't mean your friends who are arriving later can jump the queue.

There is a line at a concert to try to get tickets. There is no limit. The more of your group of friends gets in, the better concerts you can all get into later on down the line.

You are mislead here: the analogy refers to front seats, not just seats, and that is very different (if you re-read it, you will see that it is actually fundamental for the analogy). There is no concert with unlimited front seats.

Man, I'm drooling again...

Nagash/Petitpas

Shiftin

04-20-2011, 06:45 PM

To bring that back to the concert analogy (quite a good one), you simply planned ahead to avoid traffick and park your car in the parking lot before everybody so you could be first in the queue. Doesn't mean your friends who are arriving later can jump the queue.

They didn't arrive later. Some of them went to be the first in line to buy drinks, some went to buy hot dogs, some went to rent chairs and some went to see about getting some backstage passes for us all. We all took turns getting these things for each other so we could all have all have a sweet time at the concert together. I'm pretty sure it was dave matthews.

Kassel

04-20-2011, 07:12 PM

7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off

Equality for all! the early bird gets the worm. This aint no affermative action server and nor should it be. This is everquest. Get some friends or get leftbehind.

mwatt

04-20-2011, 07:33 PM

As I said before, two completely different games are being played here. The casual gamers don't have the drive or time that the power gamers do, so they cannot compete on the same level. All they can do is try to twist the rules in their favor. The power gamers believe that loot is distributed according to drive/time, so they play towards that end, competing with other like-minded players, meanwhile the casuals are caught in the crossfire.

One style of play is not more right than the other.

All it takes is one or two people to catch a guild with their pants down, leaving a camp unattended. That has nothing to do with might, and everything to do with persistence.

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

To respond to your response, I'd like to first start off by saying that we aren't playing two different games here - it is one game, approached with two different mindsets by two different groups of people. In reality there are multiple mindsets out there of course, but for the purposes of our discussion, I think we can indeed break it into two groups: Those who would put guild needs and desires ahead of the needs and desires of players outside of their guild and those who would say that the needs and desires of each individual should be of equal value.

You contend that each mindset is equally valid. I think that is debatable. I could write an entire essay on this subject alone, but I won't. Let's just let your assertion stand for now.

However, I'm not even talking about that. You may recall in one of my earlier posts that I have no problem with a guid establishing themselves and getting what they need for their players before letting it go. What I have a problem with is egregious excess beyond this, i.e., when multiple items are being obtained for individuals (or for guild coffers) beyond what are needed to equip the guild, and/or when a camp is being held down just so the pricing on the loot from it can be maintained at artifically high levels.

Much of the consternation of the objecting community is due to the belief that some of what has been going on falls into that excessive definition. If so, this is what is not fair and not in keeping with the spirit if the game. The term "need before greed" may sould familiar to some.

As I asserted at the top of my reply, we are all playing the same game. That is why there have been a minimal set of rules devised by the devs/gms that host this game for us. The current rules allow the very behaviors that some of us are objecting to, and are the reason why the OP suggested a rules change. That is what this thread was about in the first place and I at first agreed.

Though I did not agree with exactly the rules changed advocated by the OP (nor anyone else yet for that matter) I advanced my own idea for a rule change. A clearer thinker than I pointed out the error in my scheme. I reconsidered therefore - and to date I can think of no scheme that does impose siginificantly more work upon the devs/gms. Therefore, I see no practical way at this time to make a better rule, but I wouldn't mind a better one turning up. I have fallen back on trying to convince people to do (what I think) is right. How naive of me. :)

Nagash

04-20-2011, 07:34 PM

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

Can't agree more with you.

They didn't arrive later. Some of them went to be the first in line to buy drinks, some went to buy hot dogs, some went to rent chairs and some went to see about getting some backstage passes for us all. We all took turns getting these things for each other so we could all have all have a sweet time at the concert together. I'm pretty sure it was dave matthews.

I disagree with you but even I did agree, they went to some other errands and are therefore not entitled to jump the queue in order to get the remaining front seats. Doing that in the concerts I go to would at least result in a heated argument between the jumpers and the jumped ones (the kind we currently have here :)), and maybe a fight.

Nagash/Petitpas

mwatt

04-20-2011, 07:41 PM

Equality for all! the early bird gets the worm. This aint no affermative action server and nor should it be. This is everquest. Get some friends or get leftbehind.

Sure, the early bird should get the worm. And maybe the next. And maybe the next. And the next. And the... But at some point, the other birds are going to be chirping angrily because they are friggin hungry. Especially when there is only one worm hole.

Bubbles

04-20-2011, 10:16 PM

I bet you were one of those kids on the playground who sat behind someone on the swings and counted their swings till 20.

Man that was the worst rule ever.

No one could possibly enjoy their time on a swing with someone behind them as a constant reminder that the clock was ticking.

YendorLootmonkey

04-20-2011, 10:24 PM

Before I say anything else YendorLootmonkey, I want to say that I appreciate that in your response, you are expressing a point of view and discussing it without unnecessary emotional overtones. We don't agree, but at least we are disagreeing civilly.

And to be honest, I actually identify myself as more of a casual gamer/mindset (which is why I chose the guild that I did, because there is a place for my kind there, while still allowing us to experience raid content), with the understanding that there are those who play this game with a different mindset. It's far less frustrating to accept that and move on, than to butt heads with everyone over it when I know that I cannot change the way they derive enjoyment from the game.

The only thing I can control is how it impacts MY enjoyment of the game. That is what I am ultimately responsible for.

For that is the way of.... The Shoveler.

mwatt

04-21-2011, 11:27 AM

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 11:50 AM

I wasn't. But I bet you were one of those kids that inspired some kids to do that.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif;)

dusk883

04-21-2011, 11:52 AM

SOME zones, IMO, just need to be pvp enabled. Issue resolved!

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 11:56 AM

yeah and i wonder who will get in the most kills- oh yeah, the same power guilds who are camping them now :D

Turtles

04-21-2011, 12:04 PM

Honestly, there's no policy that's going to fix this. There's no set of rules that would make it better -- just different.

The bottom line is that people will either be dicks, or they won't. Any rule can be twisted and abused, which is why lawyers are so well paid. If you're holding a camp with your guildies for the better part of a week, you're a dick. It's a game; you're not being paid to camp Necklaces of Superiority, Jade Prods, or Circlets of Shadow. Let other people play. You don't need to let them be next in line, but don't make them wait for every alt in your guild to get the item before moving on. If you and your guild have had a camp for 24 hours, and the same person has been coming around every couple hours trying to get in on it, let them have it next, rather than call for guildy reinforcements. Or don't. You don't have to. But if you don't, you're a dick.

YendorLootmonkey

04-21-2011, 01:46 PM

But if you don't, you're a dick.

For not playing the game the way you think it should be played? They are gearing up. It's a competition for them. We can't (or choose not to) comprehend this because we don't play the game like that. But I don't think it's fair to expect them to cater to us.

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 01:59 PM

Polixenes

04-21-2011, 02:15 PM

For not playing the game the way you think it should be played? They are gearing up. It's a competition for them. We can't (or choose not to) comprehend this because we don't play the game like that. But I don't think it's fair to expect them to cater to us.

Just as large guilds are free to monopolise game content and keep other players from experiencing certain parts of the game, then the rest of us are free to call them selfish.

It's about all we can do, call them names, and either they will realise their selfishness, and feel guilty about it, and stop, or they won't. Likely the latter.

Shiftin

04-21-2011, 02:40 PM

I've run out of ways to explain we left the jade prod camp when most of our active members had keys and that what we did to get the camp was the exact same thing any individual, guild or group could have tried while we were camping it, or could be trying now (probably successfully i might add since there are people from like 5 guilds with access to HS).

I suppose we should leave trakanon up this week so other folks have a shot at starting their VP keys.

Stumpes

04-21-2011, 02:43 PM

This is how old EQ was. Stop complaining because you want it to be like WoW where every person can have any item. Those items are rare for a reason, and seldom hit the open market.

soup

04-21-2011, 02:48 PM

yeah and i wonder who will get in the most kills- oh yeah, the same power guilds who are camping them now :D

Yeah man, you're right, wouldn't it be so much more fair if anyone could just walk up to a camp and get in, regardless of effort or dedication?

Hey, all these people gave up all these opportunities to do other shit because they felt this is more important, but it's only fair if I just nonchalantly trot up and get right in on the action!.

The bottom line is you can get in on all these camps if you actually have some dedication and try to get in on the shit. Just because you have some sense of entitlement where you think you should be able to walk up to any camp no matter what and start getting loot from it doesn't mean that's how shit should work, because it shouldn't. If you want something bad enough, dedicate your effort to getting it. Don't expect to just be able to get it at any random ass time you choose.

Bubbles

04-21-2011, 02:58 PM

I wasn't. But I bet you were one of those kids that inspired some kids to do that.

Of course you weren't.. You just morphed into the 'fun police' 20 years later. Right..

Grats on being the fat chick at the bar who's goal that night is not only to remind anyone within earshot of how bad a time your having, but to also ensure that no one else you came with goes home with anyone that night.

Try as we might, even our combined efforts isn't going to make your wildest dreams come true, so get ready for plan B.

Here's the shocker: most people arguing against your QQ don't have HS keys or NOSs or lockets or whatever, either. We just sucked it up and went ahead and got levels and loots elsewhere, like the sane 99% of the server.

Would i like those items? sure. but its not gonna make or break my gaming experience either way. You could have sit outside Frenzied in Guk for weeks back in classic and never gotten the camp, either. You could have lived in Dag's Cauldron and never even seen Bilge. And lets not even Start on AC or Hadden. It's not like camp-hogging is some wild new fad that just showed up with the launch of Kunark.

In a way i'm sad, because there's simply nothing we're going to be able to do for you in this thread to bring you happiness, outside of that fleeting moment of joy you embrace when your buddy Kika high-fives you. Best of luck to ya.

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 02:58 PM

Random you say? More like NEVER
I can respect a race to a camp to be FIRST, but this doesn't entitled you to be THE ONLY, regardless of how much "effort" you think you put in into it.

Bubbles

04-21-2011, 03:00 PM

This is how old EQ was. Stop complaining because you want it to be like WoW where every person can have any item. Those items are rare for a reason, and seldom hit the open market.

How this conversation got this far before this point was made is simply astounding. I keep forgetting i'm probably not even talking to EQ players here.

Bubbles

04-21-2011, 03:01 PM

Random you say? More like NEVER
I can respect a race to a camp to be FIRST, but this doesn't entitled you to be THE ONLY, regardless of how much "effort" you think you put in into it.

It does. Otherwise this thread doesn't exist. You are now arguing against facts. congrats!

Mcbard

04-21-2011, 03:04 PM

This thread needs more analogies.

Maybe then everyone will be able to understand the other individuals point of view.

Surely that will work.

soup

04-21-2011, 03:08 PM

Random you say? More like NEVER
I can respect a race to a camp to be FIRST, but this doesn't entitled you to be THE ONLY, regardless of how much "effort" you think you put in into it.

Except all the camps can and do change hands (to random people.)

What's going on here is you run up to a camp, see it's camped, then come back the next day and see it's still camped and assume the same people have been cmaping it nonstop. You act as if there's a concerted effort to stop you from getting loot. There isn't.

If YOU want loot then YOU can put in the time and dedication to get it. If you think you should be able to log in at 5pm on a Thursday and run straight to the CoS camp and start getting a chance at loot then you're a douchebag with a horrid sense of entitlement.

"hay guys, we've been here for 20 hours with no CoS or Idol, but Kika here just ran up and has been here for 5 minutes, the only fair thing to do is let him in the group and have a shot at loot!"

Give me a break. Get your sense of entitlement out of here.

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 03:40 PM

I am not looking for entitlement - I am looking for fairness.

soup

04-21-2011, 03:51 PM

I am not looking for entitlement - I am looking for fairness.

And the current system is plenty fair. People who get loot from camps do so because they are dedicated to their goal of doing so. You are not dedicated, so you have less chance of getting loot. YOU are stopping yourself from getting the camps, not other people.

You can sit at the camp and wait. You can log out there and play an alt and check back in occasionally. You can check the camp at offpeak hours constantly. You can always ask the people if they will accept help. You can join a guild or make friends and go hold down your own camp. You have TONS of options for getting the loot you want if you actually dedicate yourself to doing so.

If you want to just stroll in to any camp and start getting exp and loot just for showing up, well, this might not be the game for you. Unlike modern MMOs, you don't get what you want here just because you want it.

Kika Maslyaka

04-21-2011, 03:56 PM

you missing a point that have already been made.
I don't mind sitting in line waiting for 1 hour, 2,3, 4 - if I would have any certainty that my turn will actually come.
Whats been argued here, is that the group currently holding the camp has no intention of passing it to the people on wait line - they keep bringing in more friends and family and guildies, to hold the camp 24/7 and NOT pass it on to anyone else outside their closed circle.

When fabled event went live in EQ - the line in Lower Guk for fabled FBSS was 47 people long, and 17 for fabled SSOY. I joined the waiting list, and patiently awaited my turn for SSOY for 4 hours, and finally get it.
I gave up on the #47 in line for FBSS and went to sleep.
But this was FAIR.
It wasn't that 1 guild has locked down the camp and and kept bringing in more of their own people with disregard to guys who were there before them

soup

04-21-2011, 03:59 PM

you missing a point that have already been made.
I don't mind sitting in line waiting for 1 hour, 2,3, 4 - if I would have any certainty that my turn will actually come.
Whats been argued here, is that the group currently holding the camp has no intention of passing it to the people on wait line - they keep bringing in more friends and family and guildies, to hold the camp 24/7 and NOT pass it on to anyone else outside their closed circle.

I understand the straw man argument. No camp gets held 24/7. The CoS camp for example is one of the most popular camps atm and I've walked in to it empty on more than one occasion.

Maybe if you actually went out and tried to get the stuff you want and actually check the camps more than once a week rather than whining on the forums then you could actually get some stuff you want.

Dr4z3r

04-21-2011, 04:21 PM

However, I'm not even talking about that. You may recall in one of my earlier posts that I have no problem with a guid establishing themselves and getting what they need for their players before letting it go. What I have a problem with is egregious excess beyond this, i.e., when multiple items are being obtained for individuals (or for guild coffers) beyond what are needed to equip the guild, and/or when a camp is being held down just so the pricing on the loot from it can be maintained at artifically high levels.

I'm going to say this once, and put it in large, bolded words, to try and make it clear:
THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED ON P99's KUNARK.

If you think this has been happening, you are wrong (I promise :) ), and your view of what high-end guilds like to do is severely warped.

Dr4z3r

04-21-2011, 04:22 PM

How this conversation got this far before this point was made is simply astounding. I keep forgetting i'm probably not even talking to EQ players here.

Ahem:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=265972&postcount=53

YendorLootmonkey

04-21-2011, 05:23 PM

they not just playing the game the way the like it - they also kicking other people of the play ground, like it belongs to them

They are competing against other guilds. You just happen to be collateral damage.

But soup is 100% correct. Go put some effort into getting the camp. Said effort may mean more than waiting in line, however.

Swordsly

04-21-2011, 07:02 PM

ITT: BAWWWWWW

mwatt

04-21-2011, 08:07 PM

Of course you weren't.. You just morphed into the 'fun police' 20 years later. Right..

Grats on being the fat chick at the bar who's goal that night is not only to remind anyone within earshot of how bad a time your having, but to also ensure that no one else you came with goes home with anyone that night.

Try as we might, even our combined efforts isn't going to make your wildest dreams come true, so get ready for plan B.

Here's the shocker: most people arguing against your QQ don't have HS keys or NOSs or lockets or whatever, either. We just sucked it up and went ahead and got levels and loots elsewhere, like the sane 99% of the server.

Would i like those items? sure. but its not gonna make or break my gaming experience either way. You could have sit outside Frenzied in Guk for weeks back in classic and never gotten the camp, either. You could have lived in Dag's Cauldron and never even seen Bilge. And lets not even Start on AC or Hadden. It's not like camp-hogging is some wild new fad that just showed up with the launch of Kunark.

In a way i'm sad, because there's simply nothing we're going to be able to do for you in this thread to bring you happiness, outside of that fleeting moment of joy you embrace when your buddy Kika high-fives you. Best of luck to ya.

You are adept at talking smack, but so what. Usage of insult and incendiary commentary on the scale that you are now beginning to employ often indicate that either a poster is out of logical arguments, is extremely immature, or both. You do make some sort of attempt at a logical argument amidst all the crap and name calling, but I am not even going to try and address that until you can discourse like an adult.

mwatt

04-21-2011, 08:11 PM

accidental duplicate post removed

mwatt

04-21-2011, 08:17 PM

I'm going to say this once, and put it in large, bolded words, to try and make it clear:
THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED ON P99's KUNARK.

If you think this has been happening, you are wrong (I promise :) ), and your view of what high-end guilds like to do is severely warped.

Well, I would hope that that were true. However, I doubt it, and I can't see how you can possibly know with such confidence that it is true.

mwatt

04-21-2011, 08:24 PM

I'm pretty much through posting on this thread. I've made my points as best I can and it is beginning to belong in R&F the way it's going.

There is another reason. One poster recently stated that we should go and check the camp ourselves. I too had this idea and twice in the past 2 days I have checked it. It was camped yeah, but not by some guild that was locking it down. Once it was a group of of mixed people (no two people with the same guild tag and some with none) and once it was held solo.

It appears that the situation is beginning to resolve itself - either guilds have gotten what they needed, or they've grown tired of doing it, or they've decided to let up a bit and allow natural first come / first served to hold sway.

kenzar

04-21-2011, 08:32 PM

Well, I would hope that that were true. However, I doubt it, and I can't see how you can possibly know with such confidence that it is true.

I can with confidence say this is true. I've been in a raiding guild on this server for a long time, and i can say:

THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED ON P99'S KUNARK.

Your tinfoil hat is quite out of fashion.

Bubbles

04-21-2011, 09:39 PM

You are adept at talking smack, but so what. Usage of insult and incendiary commentary on the scale that you are now beginning to employ often indicate that either a poster is out of logical arguments, is extremely immature, or both. You do make some sort of attempt at a logical argument amidst all the crap and name calling, but I am not even going to try and address that until you can discourse like an adult.

nah, none of that. I just pointed out about 5 things you couldn't refute, and you didnt. Then you exited the thread, actually went to Droga, and found out the idol/locket/cos wasn't even currently camped. Well done.

Gnar

04-21-2011, 09:53 PM

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 06:26 AM

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 06:30 AM

Dr4z3r

04-22-2011, 10:33 AM

Well, I would hope that that were true. However, I doubt it, and I can't see how you can possibly know with such confidence that it is true.

I know because I've done that sort of camp before. Everyone, without exception, would rather GTFO, but hangs on because they know that having already done it will be a major boon for themselves and their guild.

I can confirm it, because not only did every camp change hands within a week or so, there's also been zero attempts at large scale exploitation of the resources. TMO sold, what, one CoS and one NoS? Hardly rolling in them. Did TR set up shop charing for HS keys? Hardly: they went to HS.

If you can point to one example of a key or piece of loot that a guild has both managed to monopolize and exploit said monopolization of, I will be very surprised.

mwatt

04-22-2011, 10:45 AM

nah, none of that. I just pointed out about 5 things you couldn't refute, and you didnt. Then you exited the thread, actually went to Droga, and found out the idol/locket/cos wasn't even currently camped. Well done.

Luckily I said "pretty much done with this thread", so I can allow myself at least this hopefully last post. I'm sick of dealing with people like Bubbles and now Kenzar who think that attempting to belittle or insult an opponent is a winning strategy in a logical argument.

Let me reply to post from a few threads. First of all, in your last post Bubbles, you claimed "nah none of that" as a supposed refutation of one of my previous replies to you. Then, with unmitigated gall, you proceeded to tell me how I "couldn't" refute your own previous post because I didn't. If the incongruity of that is not clear to you I'll just point out that "nah none of that" is not a reasonable nor successful attempt at refutation. According to your own way of thinking, because you didn't refute what I said, you couldn't.

You specifically said there were five things in your post I couldn't refute. Heh, there is precious little in your post that argues against my previous stance. However, since you said I coudn't do it, here we go:

* I am not a fat chick at a bar. I'm not fat, I'm not a chick and I'm not at a bar.

* Stating an opinion is not crying i.e. not "QQ" as you so annoyinly leeted it.

* You cannot substantiate the claim that most people arguing against my stance don't have HS keys or NOSs or lockets or whatever. What did you do, take a poll? Crack into the database and run a query?

* In any event the above claim is irrelevent. You claim that most of the people arguing against my stance "just sucked it up and played elsewhere" instead of QQing. My god. I can't have an opinion on the OPs post about suggesting a rule change because groups of a few people are not playing nice? I guess not - not if it goes against your own.

* You claim to be "sad" because there is nothing you and others not supporting my stance can do for me, that my only a "fleeting moment of joy" is when my "buddy Kika" high fives me. Well, first this is innaccurate, because you could make me happy by changing the way you post or by not posting at all. Beyond that, plenty makes me happy. This game makes me happy. I am not going to quit because Droga was locked down for quite some time. Let me give you a clue about the way adults do things. If there is a rule that seems inequitable to them, they go through proper channels to encourage discussion and possibly get it ammeded. It's ok to do this. It is not crying and it is not being a fat chick. Really. *rolls his eyes*

Here is the real reason you have suddenly tried to go rabid on me: Kika, made a positive comment about a post I made where I defended myself and turned the tables on you. You didn't like that. At all. It's very telling that you include this idea of "my buddy Kida" high-fiving me. Guess that got under your skin. Incidentally, Kika is not my buddy - never met this person/char never talked to them. So there's another refutation of one of your so-called facts.

Now, on to Kenzar, who believes that calling my stance "wearing a tin foil hat", is a powerful refutation of the ideas I have expressed. What's up with some of you people? Can't you just discuss things? MUST you insult as well? It lessens you. In any event, the other thing that you said Kenzar is that you echoe'd someone else's (I forget the name, it was some leet speak combination of letters and numbers) statement that guilds locking down a target in order to camp for loot just to sell has never happened on this server. As support for your confidence in this matter, you state that you are in a raiding guild and have been for a long time. Well, there are other guilds, so again, how can you be so confident. In any event, I simply don't believe it. Not that I really care that much on the whole. Droga is an exceptional case due to one of the drops there being short term.

Finally in reply to Bubbles and YendorLootmonkey's assertion that maybe Droga was never really locked down or that it is no longer locked down, invalidates all that others that I and others have said on this thread: No, it doesn't. It really was locked down for a significant period of time. This was not only a known fact, it was ANNOUNCED by TMO that it was so. Guilds locking out a camp for an extended period of time was and is worth some discussion. You guys who are jumping on me for what I said have to realize that I'm not the only person in the game that detest this idea. Lots of us are not concerned about your guild adancement, which as far as we are concerned can wait, just a you expect individuals to have to wait for their own advancement when a camp is locked down for an extended period (talking weeks here).

You all seem to think it is an admission of defeat that I checked the actual status of Droga recently. Why not. I should keep up with what is actually hapening at this time. I want in there, of course I am going to check. Oddly, you yourselves suggested that people do this, and when they do you think it wipes away the fact that the lockout occurred and could potentially occur again? Anyway, who knows, maybe this thread had an effect on guilds who were performing lockouts?

All that I and others ever really wanted was that "first come first served", means that you physically need to be there. Though camping rules don't state it this way, it is the ad hoc way things typically work. We seem to have reached that stage now that "lockouts" are apparently over. So again, I'm pretty much (hopefully totally) done with this thread.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 10:58 AM

mwatt - http://www.project1999.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif ;)

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 11:36 AM

We seem to have reached that stage now that "lockouts" are apparently over. So again, I'm pretty much (hopefully totally) done with this thread.

Nope... see you back here when epics come out!

Turtles

04-22-2011, 11:48 AM

FWIW, I agree with mwatt, and I have more than enough resources to buy a CoS, NoS, locket of escape, Idol of the Thorned, and Gauntlets of Potence at the EC market price. It's not about the items or the plat, it's about the principle.

It's a game. If you want to sit on Trak and batphone 40 grown men at 4AM to kill him, fine -- good for you. You're more dedicated than the people not getting Trak could or would want to be. But that's not the issue here. This thread isn't concerned with people wasting away their RL lives sitting at a camp. This thread pretty much concedes that if you want to sit at a camp for 12 hours, more power to you.

This thread is concerned with the people that can log in and immediately get a stake in an uber-rare camp by leap-frogging anyone that had been waiting -- all due to a guild tag. This thread is unhappy with the fact that a guild of 60+ every-day players is capable of rotating in and out of a camp repeatedly, forever, if they so choose.

Personally, I don't think a rule change would fix anything. There's always a way around. But I agree that it's a shitty situation and people shouldn't be dicks. Share. Reward someone who has been waiting for 10 hours rather than hooking up your guildie that logged in 15 minutes ago.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 12:17 PM

Turtles - http://www.project1999.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif ;)

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 12:22 PM

Personally, I don't think a rule change would fix anything. There's always a way around. But I agree that it's a shitty situation and people shouldn't be dicks. Share. Reward someone who has been waiting for 10 hours rather than hooking up your guildie that logged in 15 minutes ago.

The guildie is gonna be there when it comes time to help camp stuff for your epics. Random player waiting there for ten hours is most likely not. So who do you hook up with the camp?

Two different opposing mindsets.

But again, its already been pointed out that this no longer happens at the camp in question. Meanwhile, are solo casters still storing multiple FBSS's on corpses at frenzy camp? :P

Turtles

04-22-2011, 06:05 PM

The guildie is gonna be there when it comes time to help camp stuff for your epics. Random player waiting there for ten hours is most likely not. So who do you hook up with the camp?

Exactly.

Which is why I say "don't be a dick." It's greed. Getting the item(s) isn't enough. Now you're worrying about leveraging the camp into future aid. The 10% -- or worse -- chance that this particular guildie helps you in the future based solely upon your providing them with the camp in question is worth more to you than doing a solid for the guy that's been patiently waiting in line for 10 hours.

And the 'you' is a generalized you, I'm not referring to you specifically Yend. Just saying.

The ideal solution, from a non-dick that nonetheless wants to help his guild progress, would be to let someone hop into line, but not allow them to take over the camp. In other words, there are 5 members of ABC guild at the camp. A 6th guy shows up, not in ABC guild. That guy can sit around, and after the 5 ABC guys get their items, the 6th guy gets the next. But he doesn't get to choose who to hand the camp to afterward. It goes back to ABC. That way, everyone with the patience to wait their turn wins. Only lazy guildies that try to piggy back off of their friends without even waiting in an artificially short line lose.

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 06:35 PM

Exactly.

Which is why I say "don't be a dick." It's greed. Getting the item(s) isn't enough. Now you're worrying about leveraging the camp into future aid. The 10% -- or worse -- chance that this particular guildie helps you in the future based solely upon your providing them with the camp in question is worth more to you than doing a solid for the guy that's been patiently waiting in line for 10 hours.

Or, that guildmate has helped you on a camp or on a raid in the past, and you are compelled to hook him up first, before the Guy You Have Never Seen Before (tm).

That is why people form guilds. To achieve what they can't on their own. And to create a strong bond within the guild, the expectation is that you help each other achieve goals... whether that be levels, equipping your character, downing a high-value mob, whatever.

It is a completely different mindset than "oh, that guy I've never seen before and I have no obligation to help wants the camp over someone that I have obligation to help... F my guildmate, he's on his own. Here you go, random dude!"

It's something the rest of us learned the first time around in Live, and I think some people forgot after playing WoW for too long.

Again, it's not about being a dick or screwing someone over. That just happens to be a side effect to the "for the guild" mentality.

Turtles

04-22-2011, 06:44 PM

I've literally never played any MMORPG other than EverQuest, so I don't know a thing about the WoW comparisons. But back on live, guilds wouldn't waste this kind of time on trivial shit, partly because the game wasn't explored well enough for a guild to determine what trivial shit was/wasn't worth the time until it was too late. It also just wasn't good form.

And if you want to hook someone up that has helped you out in the past, then let him hop right into the camp. All he has to do is wait behind the guy that has been waiting there for the entire guild queue to empty first. If he's too much of a prick to wait one extra drop for a camp he didn't have to go through the trouble of earning, he doesn't deserve it. And if you owe him so drastically that you want to get it for him even despite his impatience, just give him your spot. And you can hop in line behind the guy that's been waiting for 10 hours. That way, you're *actually* doing your guildie a favor, instead of just dicking over a non-guildie for his sake, as if that's some sacrifice on your part.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 06:47 PM

yeah exactly, this goes right back to the "ticket line" example given before.
Just because you standing in front of me, doesn't mean you can keep bringing in your family and friends, when it was clearly said that's its one ticket per person.

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 07:12 PM

These are guilds competing against other guilds. It is a competition for them. You are collateral damage in their competition. They don't intend to deny you the camp or the items on purpose. They are focused on one thing only... gearing up and becoming more capable than their competing guilds.

It has nothing to do with being a dick or whatever you want to call it, although I completely understand how you can feel that way, because you do not have the same mindset that they do.

They are not obligated to the casual player. You're talking about guilds that train and leapfrog each other in the spirit of "competition". This is how it has been since the start of Everquest and when the first uberguild formed on your Live server. There should be no surprises in how things work 11 years later.

Is it greedy? To the casual player, yes. To them, it's just part of the game. Put in time/effort, result in shiny trinket, go to next camp/raid, repeat.

You and them are not playing the same game. It might be called Everquest to both of you, but it's like you're playing flag football against a team that's tackling. You're the person telling the other player in Street Fighter to stop locking you down with Ryu's constant stream of fireballs, when all they want to do is win, while you're trying to set up some arbitrary rules for yourself to even the playing field.

Douchebaggery or not, it's how they chose to play the game. Not one single one of us has the right to tell another how one should play the game, or how one should derive enjoyment out of the game. It just doesn't work that way, and it never has. So you can choose to accept it and wait for a guild locking down a camp to slip up, join a guild yourself that can lock down the camp, spend the time farming stuff so you can buy it (you know, like every melee ever had to buy FBSS from solo casters locking down Frenzy), or sit here and butt heads and get all frustrated over trying to change an entire mindset of like 50% of the server.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 07:26 PM

ah, but that's what RULES are for.
If there would be no rules at all, then training and KS would be raging all over, since there would be no fear of any punishment.
The argument about guilds and collateral damage is just like argument about Gangs: the Westside Gang is at war with Eastside Gang, and they shot each other whenever they encounter each other. And yes, average citizens do become collateral damage as result of this shootouts, regardless the fact that neither Gang was targeting them specifically - you just happened to be in the line of fire.

But this is also why CIVILIZED societies have formed such institutions as LAW and Law Enforcement, that keeps the Gangs in check.

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

So where, guilds don't give a crap about casual players, we, casual players, don't give a crap about guild's competition - take it elsewhere :P You can compete all you want, as long as it doesn't hurt people around you.

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 07:33 PM

To translate to EQ terms- these is what we have rules for that enforced by the GMs.

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want a rule change so that you can "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets because the current rules don't allow you to do that. Greedy who?

See? It's all a matter of perspective...

Nug

04-22-2011, 07:33 PM

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 07:37 PM

Exactly. I agree with you. Play by the rules.

This is the current rule:

"7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off. "

You want the rules changed because they aren't convenient for you. You want to circumvent the time/effort that someone else spent waiting for and securing/holding that camp for their friends. You, in effect, want to "cut in line" to get your shiny trinkets based on the current rules.

It's all a matter of perspective...

when Law is unjust - you fight to change it.
The way I (and few others) offer to change the law will establish equality and equal opportunity for ALL players. Current rule #7 heavily benefits closed players circles, and gives them unlimited opportunity to perma-lock mobs/camps/items/whatever. I cannot possible recognize this as ethical

baalzy

04-22-2011, 07:39 PM

I'd really hate to read through all these posts to see if anyone's brought this up, but...

Why not just bring your own group and park where they are sitting if they don't want to share and see who's can do better? Is THAT against the rules?

Yes, actually it is.

As long as they're capable of handling the camp on their own, don't leave the area, and don't go noticeably afk; they can, according to the rules, cycle in whoever they want and exclude the other group indefinitely.

Tsuken

04-22-2011, 07:47 PM

The problem is that this server is following the everquest classic timeline, or at least tries to. The difference with the real classic experience is that nobody knew which items would be nerfed, nor when. But on this server "everybody" knows which items will be removed and around what time it will happen. This puts each of those items very high on many guild's wanted-list, even while it's still dropping.

Following the classic timeline, can't recreate the classic experience completely, because on this server people will have fore-knowledge of what will happen in the future.

There could have been added other (non-classic) solutions to give each player a chance at these rare items, without them being over-camped. For example, each of the to-be-nerfed items could have been made LORE NO DROP. Making them unable to ruin the future-economy and therefore much less attractive to get, except for personal use.

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 07:47 PM

will establish equality and equal opportunity for ALL players.

You all had equal opportunity to secure whatever camps you desired most on Kunark launch night, and to hand them off as you saw fit. Others executed their plans more quickly and efficiently than you. Now, because you missed out, you want to change it all up to benefit yourself and your style of play. What makes your style of play "more right"?

You have equal opportunity to join one of the guilds that have the manpower and drive to wait for another guild to slip up so they can take over the camp. You can waltz right in as a member of that guild, get into the camp, and be part of the loot rotation.

But that equal opportunity isn't good enough for you. You want special consideration because you are not willing to devote the time/effort that other players do. You want the same loot without devoting the same time/effort into getting it. Tell me how that is equal, since you're so interested in equality? :P

Loly Taa

04-22-2011, 07:52 PM

The problem I think the QQers have is something like this...

The QQers (WoW players?) think that this is like going to the grocery store... You walk in, grab your groceries, wait in line, pay and leave. Since it's a business establishment that is just out to make money there is no special treatment given like allowing people to cut in line or to buy up all of a specific item that's on sale (limitations on amount of items that can be bought for the sale price) etc.

The reality is, it's nothing like a grocery store, mall, or other normal business. The setting is more akin to that of a park or campground. In another example;

The guilds camping these "coveted", "game changing" spawns- are much like people who show up early in the morning to grab the best spot at the beach. There is no requirement for them to have a line for other people to take the spot they've already gotten. It's expected that other people who show up at the beach late are going to piss off and find a different location to hang out in if someone is in a spot they would like to or usually normally hang out at. At the beach there is nothing preventing me from showing up as soon as the park opens and getting the most prime spot on the beach- and also nothing preventing me from passing my spot on the beach off to my friends who show up later to hang out with me. At the beach I'm under no obligation to talk to other beach goers or even acknowledge them sans respecting their personal rights. I'm at the beach to relax, perhaps hang out with friends who may show up and leave at different times of the day. I'm not required to socialize with the general public if I choose not to.

The complainers are trying to think of the server like a grocery store or book store. The problem is- there is no money being made here. It's an open resource freely available to everyone... If anything the server and it's camps are more like parks or beaches which everyone is available to use freely- but everyone has the expectation of being able to have their own private space, available on a first come, first served basis- until they decide to leave; regardless of when their friends decide to show up and leave.

I could go to a campground right now and rent out a space pretty much for the rest of the summer- even perhaps the best space at the campground. Is that unfair? No- it's life. You're not paying anything, you aren't owed anything.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 08:11 PM

You all had equal opportunity to secure whatever camps you desired most on Kunark launch night, and to hand them off as you saw fit. Others executed their plans more quickly and efficiently than you. Now, because you missed out, you want to change it all up to benefit yourself and your style of play. What makes your style of play "more right"?

You have equal opportunity to join one of the guilds that have the manpower and drive to wait for another guild to slip up so they can take over the camp. You can waltz right in as a member of that guild, get into the camp, and be part of the loot rotation.

But that equal opportunity isn't good enough for you. You want special consideration because you are not willing to devote the time/effort that other players do. You want the same loot without devoting the same time/effort into getting it. Tell me how that is equal, since you're so interested in equality? :P

We going in circles here - you advocating monopolization on a principle - who ever was first is ETERNAL KEEPER.
Being FIRST only gives you a right to be first and nothing more.
You get your loot, now move, and let me get mine. I have been siting here for 5 hours to. Its your GUILD-MATE who has been sleeping all day and JUST LOGGED IN, and already has a camp spot and place in line reserved for him, who wants special consideration.
I have served my time in line - I EARNED IT - he didn't.

To: Loly Taa (our neighborhood Lineage hardass):
go to your PUBLIC PARK, at 5am when no one there, and they try to explain all the new coming visitors, that all 500 benches in the park have already been claimed by you for your friends and family, who will arrive later.
Its a communal property. You get 1 spot, and that's it. Now MOVE!

YendorLootmonkey

04-22-2011, 08:18 PM

To: Loly Taa (our neighborhood Lineage hardass):
go to your PUBLIC PARK, at 5am when no one there, and they try to explain all the new coming visitors, that all 500 benches in the park have already been claimed by you for your friends and family, who will arrive later.
Its a communal property. You get 1 spot, and that's it. Now MOVE!

There's no 500 benches being claimed. There's one bench being claimed... call it "Necklace of Superiority" bench. Or "Circlet of Shadow" bench. They were at the bench first, they control who gets it next. If more family or friends come, they get invited to use the bench for feeding pigeons or whatnot. There is no "line for the bench under the tree next to the water fountain" or wtfever the perfect park bench is. Other people who want that bench go choose another area of the park until that bench is free.

Loly Taa

04-22-2011, 08:19 PM

No Kika, you just aren't understanding how it works.

I'm not claiming 500 benches at a beach. I'm claiming a small area of the beach. Laying out my towels and setting up my cooler and chairs. It's not like any guild has claimed an "entire zone" only small parts of different zones. In this game spots are defined as groups of mobs. It's always been like this, since classic Everquest.

My spot on the beach might just happen to have a lot more clams than any other spot on the beach- and you might be hungry and want some clams. I might also be hungry too, and also want clams. That doesn't mean you can just come over, sit right next to me, and start digging for clams. This isn't about being orderly, this is about respecting other people's personal spaces. Where did they grow you?

Pescador

04-22-2011, 08:29 PM

Man, now I want to go to the beach.

...After I destroy a few circlets of shadow.

Kika Maslyaka

04-22-2011, 08:29 PM

Loly Taa

04-22-2011, 08:37 PM

The benches are not camp spots- they are the future item drops/numbers in wait line
I grow up in a place, where people don't try to claim more space that they can place their ass on.
They certainly don't claim the space for 20 hours AHEAD for 20 more people who MAY YET COME.

Place their ass on? It seems to be you think of a space in multiples. Like, every 20 minutes there is a new spot at the beach exactly like the one you wanted that I took. No- it's not like that. There's only one spot on the beach like the one I have. Me and my brahs are hanging out there drinking heavily around a bonfire, knocking out bitches that walk through our area for phat lewts. The space does not multiply itself. In fact, I can continue drinking there forever if I want (assuming the park is open 24/7) and even if I leave my friends can stay there and invite their friends to come as well. You think of mobs as spaces, they aren't! Spaces are spaces, mobs spawn in these spaces, just like food washes ashore from the ocean. I choose a space to inhabit and in the real world people generally respect that space unless they are drunk too. Maybe I just like my spot? Maybe I just want to hang out and not leave it? Who are you to say when I am done spending time somewhere I was already at? or to decide when my friends have to leave the space I initially claimed? People in this thread talk of logic but that has nothing to do with this. It's all about common courtesy- which some of you here have warped with your World of Warcraft like ways to believe that you're owed something just because you exist. I'm sorry, your parents raised you wrong. People that want things work for them. Sometimes it's hard, if you can't deal with that I can probably sell you a nice bridge somewhere near Kerra Isle.