AoE spells should only hit limited targets until September 1999 patch era

[Dolalin]

------------------------------
September 13, 1999
------------------------------

Bug Fixes:

...

- A bug in some of the AoE code has been fixed. AoE spells will now
effect more monsters.

Seems to me as if AOE spells were bugged until this patch era, and e.g. bard swarm kiting should not be possible at Green release.

If I had to pick a number out of the air I'd cap it at four (on the basis of quad kiting spells).

[Izmael]

Bump for a goog bug report.

It would be good if people leveled the old fashioned way, instead of having the server full of bards swarming wisps etc.

[Dolalin]

As evidence of the 4 target limit I present Exhibit A, this post from the EQBards mailing list from June 1999, stating that point blank bard AOEs had a 4 mob limit at that time.

https://groups.yahoo.com/api/v1/groups/eqbards/messages/1648?guccounter=1


The chant series does 14 per tick with a drum, for three ticks, as well as
lowering the MR, CR, or FR of the target by 25 points. There is no change
to the resistance debuff without an instrument, but damage drops to 8 per
tick. And, the very nature of the songs makes them very hard to resist in
the first place, much like Tashan or Malosi.

Best use I can think of, is using Chant of Fire on monsters in Solusek that
have natural high fire resistance, so that druids and mages in your group
can be more effective. And Curtailing Chant is useful all around, helping
out your wizard, enchanter, and necro friends where ever you are.

As far as direct damage goes, DDD is pretty weak at that level. Most
casters have a 44th level Direct Damage spell that does anywhere from 500 to
600 damage for 200 to 300 hundred mana, and a 39th level AoE or Column spell
that does anywhere from 100 to 200 damage per pulse, to up to four targets,
for three pulses.

What DDD has going for it is the speed to cast it, two and a half seconds,
and the fact that it delivers all of it's damage at once, rather than
requiring the target mob stay in the rain area for all three pulses most AOE
requires. It's also point blank, working just like any AoE bard song, the
four closest mobs will be in the effect radius.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sean Kennedy <orang@...>
To: <eqbards@onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 10:54 AM
Subject: [eqbards] Patch changes


>From: "Sean Kennedy" <orang@...>
>
>
>These are the bard specific changes in the last patch (except for /follow,
>which
>is just a huge benefit to a party with bards playing Selo's or 19)
>
>Bug fixes and newly implemented features
>
>- 'Procing' (items that cast spells) weapons no longer break Bard's singing
>- We have implemented an Auto-follow command. To auto-follow another
>player, target the character, then type "/follow". You must be grouped
with
>the character in order to successfully carry out the command.
>
>
>Spell Changes
>
>- The Bard spell "Denon's Desperate Dirge" will now require the use of
Mana.
>- No spell or effect that accelerates the process of mana regeneration will
>work on a Bard.
>- Tuyen's Songs now have range.
>
>So, now that 38,43 and 46 are apparently working, any of you high level
>bards have
>the straight poop on them?
>
>In particular what's your take on Dirge? How does the damage it does
>compare
>with the best damage song we have before then? Looks like they made sure
>it would be used only once in a long while, is it powerful enough to even
>have memorized?
>
>I've heard 400+ dmg, how does that compare to other casters DD/AOE spells
at
>that
>level?
>
>Now that the two Tuyen's have a range, does anyone have numbers on them?
>
>
>
>Tindayen the Curious bard of Povar <g>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Have you entered ONElist's "Grow to Give" program?
>http://www.onelist.com
>Deadline is June 19. Join now to win $5000 for your charity of choice.

[Dolalin]

(Just to be clear, it was a total wild guess on my part that it should be 4, but it seems my instincts were correct)

[Rogean]

https://i.imgur.com/aaT9fCr.png

[mcoy]

Well I did some quick searching and it looks as though I ran a bard around WFP singing chords of dissonance and the max number of hits I see is 4. The problem is that only happened once - most are 2 or 3 targets at once. I also only did it for a few minutes so it's a very limited sample size.

The devs already have these logs - they're from the character "makesevin". Good luck!

-Mcoy

[Jibartik]

If god appeared on earth in any form, it was in the form of a programmer that put this bug into the code before launch, for he saw what rogean and nilbog would build one day and knew the power of the bard long before brad and co.

FWIW I found this in the patch notes a few days ago (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2963406&postcount=31)and was going to put together a really robust patch history (rogean I really wondered if you knew of one that someone had already made? Or have you guys got one? I managed to find patch notes from as early as 6 months after release I think, maybe 4? on the casters realm site.)

Here is the patch that fixed AoE kiting http://web.archive.org/web/20020223135659/http://eq.castersrealm.com/archives.asp?Action=View&Day=13&ID=286&Month=9&Year=1999

September 13, 1999 makes it 6 months

6 months no bard kiting?

:casts spell: toxicity removed!

If this discovery could play a hand in the elimination of swarm kiting on green and I played a part in that I would say that is the best loot I could have ever be rewarded! (sorry bards!)

[Wallicker]

Doesn’t seem right, might I ask what is the point of the entire line of PBaoe spells for multiple classes if it’s no different than a quad spell?

But if this guys post from back then is actually accurate, it also seems that bards chant of flame, chant of frost and fufils should be like lures and have a negative resist mod added in.

[Jibartik]

I would just assume that it was a spell that players just didnt use, like charm, things often totally sucked back then lol as a bard im sure 4 would seem natural, as you were mostly meleeing with other characters cus you thought you were a tank back then we were all so dumb lol Id figure PBaoe spells could be memed next to my necromancrs grim aura spell


It looks like loramin just beat me to it and compiled all these patch notes onto our wiki so there is the start of what will be the most comprehensive patch history about classic everquest? (that is if you dont already have one rogean?? :) ) : https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334317

[Rogean]

The 25 Mob AE Limit will be in place, but we will evaluate this and change as necessary.

We have received evidence (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334283) that ALL spells and songs were limited to a max of 4 mobs per cast/pulse until September 1999. This will be in place for Launch.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Rogean View Post
The 25 Mob AE Limit will be in place, but we will evaluate this and change as necessary.

We have received evidence that ALL spells and songs were limited to a max of 4 mobs per cast/pulse until September 1999. This will be in place for Launch.

:eek: (idk how to get your strikeout in there)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBrLHMCTDAA

[Wallicker]

The chant series does 14 per tick with a drum, for three ticks, as well as
lowering the MR, CR, or FR of the target by 25 points. There is no change
to the resistance debuff without an instrument, but damage drops to 8 per
tick. And, the very nature of the songs makes them very hard to resist in
the first place, much like Tashan or Malosi.

Does this mean chants get a -resist mod like lures as well?

[Brocode]

I will counter your evidence of 4 mobs

KITING GROUPS OF MOBS FOR EXP AND CASH! - Bergil Moonsong, Prexus
When you reach level 18 and get Denon's Disruptive Discord, find a place where the mobs can not run as fast as you using Selo's without a drum.
For me, this was East Karana, where I would gather around 6 mobs (Gnoll or Undead Reavers, Griffawns, Gorge Hounds etc) and then kite them using a twist of Denon's and Selo's. With a Brass Horn equipped, and using external camera it's easy to make sweeping circuits and in around 15 minutes you have a nice pile of dead mobs, lots of exp and lots of loot (rawhide, bronze weapons, runes and words). If you take damage, just twist in Hymn between Selo's and your next Denon's.

It's so easy, levels 18 to 22 pass very painlessly using this method.


Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000

http://web.archive.org/web/20020428200157/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=1421

[Dolalin]

Strategy Submitted on: Wednesday, March 01, 2000

[Brocode]

:eek: its after patch damn, your good!

[Dolalin]

You don't get to change the world without an eye for detail, son. :D

By the way, if you check the JSON api output, the author of that post I use in my evidence is John Capozzi, one of the original EQ game devs. He knew what he was talking about.

https://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,67552/

These old mailing lists are an underrated research resource...

[Chortles Snort|eS]

huge
nice find

[Dolalin]

I found another one from Kendrick (aka John Capozzi) which is even more explicit.

https://groups.yahoo.com/api/v1/groups/eqbards/messages/671?guccounter=1


----- Original Message -----
From: John Kim <kim@...>
To: <eqbards@onelist.com>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [eqbards] Which song for soloing?


>From: John Kim <kim@...>
>
>On Thu, 13 May 1999, J.M. Capozzi wrote:
>>
>> >Melee:
>> >I would take preferance to singing Anthem, and switch to healing (and
step
>> >back from the fight to avoid the shit list effect) with my mandolin.
>>
>> Once again, when we're getting hit in excess of 60 points per swing, even
>> with my 11 per tick with a lute, it's not worth the loss of my blades.
Dead
>> mobs give you plenty of time to heal. Live ones don't.
>
>If you're in a good group, everyone should be taking damage.
>If everyone is wounded, and if the song heals just 5 points
>per tick with your weapons equipped, for a six person party
>that's 30 points of healing per tick, which can substantially
>offset even 60 points damage per swing.
>

Well, when you get hit as an individual twice in 2.5 second round, 4 times
in a tick, in the 60 point range, Hymn has negligble effect. I do 6 per
tick standing without an instrument, plus the natural 1 point regen. That's
7 damage healed per tick. A tick is 5 seconds. 84 hitpoints per minute.

Most of our fights last 45 seconds or less, so if I sang Hymn full time
that's 54 points damage healed per member. One hit from the monsters we
fight. Not singing Hymn in lieu of another song, such as Melodic Binding,
is much more effective. With Melodic binding, I probably stop that mob from
making half a dozen swings. Proactive damage avoidance.

We have a good group, and we try to spread damage as much as possible, but
it's just better if I don't sing Hymn in combat now. It was great when we
were bashing gnolls and orcs and goblins in the single digit levels, less
great in the teens, and a pretty obsolete tactic after 20th.

>I don't think there's any right answer to which songs to use.
>It all depends on the circumstances. Figuring it out is the
>fun of playing a bard. :-)
>
>> Switched to an old standby instead..Lucid Lullaby. I'd rather the caster
>> not cast, than take my chances resisting the spell. Lullaby does an
>> excellent job interupting the casters.
>
>Another use I found for Lullaby is saving your party when a
>hopelessly red train gets dumped on it. The song *really*
>pisses off the monsters, so you fire it up until you have
>their attention, then hit accelerando and lead them away from
>your party.
>

Good tactic, but not something that can be done indoors, nor even in most
outdoor dungeons. For getaways now, I use the 26th level song, Appalling
Screech. Area fear song, clears a room in a hurry.

>I heard the maximum number of mobs affected by it was limited
>to 4 for playbalance reasons. I have no problem with that,
>but it seems to me that even when the song is already working
>on 4 mobs, it still gets other mobs nearby (who are not being
>affected by the song and are normally non-aggressive) mad at
>me. It's hard to keep calm when 4 mobs are beating on you and
>3 more join the fray, so I can't say I'm certain about this.
>But that's the impression I'm getting of how it works.
>

That's correct, all bard AoE (and most AoE spells in general) have a maximum
of four targets now.
>--
>John H. Kim
>kim@...
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>How many communities do you think join ONElist each day?
>http://www.onelist.com
>More than 1,000!

[Jibartik]

This guy's looking into the matrix!

[Dolalin]

Nahhhhh I just wrote some quick Powershell to scrape all the messages from the API into json files and I do a grep for interesting terms :D


PS C:\> $count = 0; for ( ;$count -le 10000; ) { curl.exe -s "https://groups.yahoo.com/api/v1/groups/eqbards/
messages/$count" | Out-File "$count.json"; $count++; }


Powershell is a little better than Bash for this because you can also use it to do post-processing with the ConvertFrom-Json commandlet, and it parses the json into a full fledged object. That's how I clean up the emails.

[Sahazar]

This and spellbook med?? Yessss!!

[dbouya]

I quite clearly remember being impressed by a bard AoE'ing all/most of kerra isle in 1998/early1999. It caused me to travel to blackburrow, die under the waterfall, and just give up on playing that character ever again, I was still bound in toxxila. I gave up on the character, because I needed GM assistance to travel on boats, because my computer was too shitty to zone fast enough to stay on the boat when zoning. I will also say, I believe in my non-evidence based anecdote the bard was debuffing 10+ mobs but may not have been able to effect them with pbaoe damage spells (in the anecdote the particle effect I remember was the shiny clear/silver/blue one of debuffs). As a result I'm sure pbaoe debuff spells were working, for sure. It's possible the bug only effected the damage spells not the debuff spells. There's absolutely no evidence in the quoted post about debuff pbaoe, it only mentions damage songs. In fact my GUESS would be that my memory was specifically of the song http://wiki.project1999.com/Largo%27s_Melodic_Binding

Even if the bug was fixed in September, it may have been introduced later than launch.
By September 1999 the boats were also fixed, so my non-evidence based anecdote couldn't've happened then.

This said, 'most' of kerra isle is closer to maybe 10-15 mobs than 25 or 50. I'm not sure how the number 4 was reached. It almost can't be 4, since pbaoe spells were specifically the only type of spell that could effect more than 4 targets. I don't see any evidence to set the number to 4, even if it should be less than 25. In 1999 most bards wouldn't've wanted to swarm 25+ anyways because of lag and bad computers making groups that large more dangerous.

Not to mention the "evidence" in question is just blatantly incorrect, the bard who wrote that seemed to think a rain spell could trigger 12 times (4x3), when rain spells can only trigger 4 times (3x1 2x2 or 1x4). If you read the section of his post where he mentions the number 4 he seems to specifically think casters are using rain spells as AoE spells. If the "proof" from 1999 is a quote where a bard confuses the numbers 4 and 12. I'm not sure why the number 4 is the one that's seen as correct. The bard specifically seems to be confusing the situation in which a rain spell is used on a single target and triggers 3 times in 3 "pulses" with a similarity with the fact that bard song pbaoedot also is balanced around 3 "pulses". He's just incorrect though.

His mistake is quoted by me below for reference:

"What DDD has going for it is the speed to cast it, two and a half seconds,
and the fact that it delivers all of it's damage at once, rather than
requiring the target mob stay in the rain area for all three pulses most AOE
requires. It's also point blank, working just like any AoE bard song, the
four closest mobs will be in the effect radius."


I'm also not entirely sure why classic bards need a nerf (although I am a big fan of the nerf on pbaoe from 50-25 because in 1999-2001 on dialup and with single digit megabytes of VRAM no one would've been insane enough to pbaoe 50 enemies). During kunark era I'm 100% sure bards could charm swarm kited. Which is even more effective than pbaoe swarm kiting this tactic already won't be possible at any point in p99's timeline due to social aggro changes that apparently can't be fixed. Or at least I assume that's why social aggro works this way on p99.

I don't play a bard on p99, I don't pbaoe kite, I don't think it's a fun way to play the game, and in 1999-2001 era GM's basically outlawed typical bard swarm kiting if anyone but the bard was in the zone and wanted to play. It was done as part of the play nice policy about zone disruption. I understand p99 doesn't have as large of a gm staff, and a nerf to this type of play totally makes sense. The number 4 though just makes no sense it doesn't seem like it can be classic. If the bard we're quoting from 1999 confused the numbers 4 and 12, I'd say 12 would be a better compromise. In the quoted "evidence" the bard is describing what would be the number 12, despite him actually saying the number 4. Or if you're deadset on making it 4. At least leave pbaoe debuff effects alone in this change and leave them at 25. (Pbaoe effects is a fringe case no one cares about, but IMO it would be a more classic choice of numbers, that is much more well supported by the available evidence). Basically, since this sort of thing was frowned upon by sony staff in 1999-2001 era, I'm totally fine with p99 staff ruining it. It's just that the so called evidence isn't as specific as I'd like for the purposed change.

[Dolalin]

dbouya, I'll invite you to read post #18 in this thread.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2964877&postcount=18

This isn't just "some bard", it's Kendrick, a game dev.

There was nothing stopping any bard from pulling tons of mobs and singing AoEs on the group of them, but before September 1999 they would be hitting only 4 mobs at once in the swarm. If they were stacked up you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference just by looking, you'd need to be close enough to see how many were being hit in the combat window.

[dbouya]

Ahh, I see! I guess I'd only found the bard quote on page 1 of the thread, who was the one I was quoting as wrong. The guy on page 2 makes a lot more sense.

That said.

"
That's correct, all bard AoE (and most AoE spells in general) have a maximum
of four targets now.
"

NOW.

That leads me to believe sometime between march1999 and april1999 bard AoE effected more than 4 targets. Since a dev wrote the word NOW in may 1999.
I started playing in december 1998 (I was in closed beta). So I'm 100% willing to admit it is possible that bard AoE was nerfed on the day the game was released. I could've seen a bard hitting more than 4 targets in beta. Release was actually a lot more buggy than beta, which made it a lot harder to play and form memories about it.

To my reading, that's 4 months without pbaoe, not 6. Of course I'm not in charge. Also you're entirely right about the whole not being able to tell how many targets were effected when I wasn't actually the one playing the bard. Although the bard had done it "on purpose". Of course they were singing an attack speed debuff song (presumably, it could've been some sort of mez or calm I suppose too based on the colors). This wasn't at all a pbaoe kiting swarm tactic. Bard's were a lot less informed about their abilities in 1999. Basically what the bard was doing was something no one on p99 would do, because it wasn't correct, they were debuffing and melee'ing a group of lower level enemies, heck, since I wasn't them, and they actually just caused me to leave, they may have just been trying to gain skillups in defense or dodge or some such.

Come to think of it release was actually so buggy I couldn't even login for a week or two. Despite playing in beta beforehand just fine even when gfay regularly had 250+ people in it. So, it's possible the devs nerfed all aoe's in march 1999 in order to help address server strain. Server strain definitely almost killed the game. Day 1 of release is a time between day 1 and may1999. The dev would've had a prospective even more pronounced than mine (of not really seeing everquest 1 as having started in march1999, for me it started in december 1998, and for him it started in 1997 or some such).

It's probably impossible to find out when pbaoe was nerfed between march1999 and may1999. Which means I totally understand going with the limit of 4. Although, one thing the dev does mention in his example post.... is something about aggro'ing 7 enemies despite only effecting 4. This could explain what the bard I saw was doing. They may have even thought their song was working on more than 4 targets, even if it in fact was not. Since the discussion seems to be about the fact that in may 1999 pbaoe spells would aggro ALL enemies in their range, despite only effecting 4. It would be really cool though if someone did find proof of when pbaoe was nerfed. Personally I still believe that at very least before release of the game the nerf down to 4 had not been implemented yet. It would be pretty silly though for p99 to leave in the game something the devs deemed to be a horrible problem and patched out as soon as possible. So even if someone did find proof that it worked for the first 2-6 weeks or some such, it might make sense to not act on it.

On p99 I think enemies are only aggro'd by pbaoe if they're effected by it. Right? However it probably makes sense to leave it that way, since it was likely unintended that the songs would aggro more targets than they would effect?

[Dolalin]

It must have been the case that the AoE would "tag" all mobs around but the effect would only process on the closest four. That's how I am interpreting the comments of the person he's replying to.

It was a buggy game at release, as you say.

I would guess "now" meant at release versus during beta.

[Jibartik]

FWIW here is a discussion about how bards absolutly SUCK in 2000, and not once is it mentioned that they can solo using AoE out of almost 100 complaints about how bards suck, and counterarguments about how awesome bards are.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010124125400/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum15/HTML/000262.html

the down side is it sounds like mez resist should resist at least 50% of the time on extremely green mobs, and that charm should break often. But dont put those fixes in lol we are just about to get bards that group on green99 lol

[Dolalin]

Bards had big problems. Their aoe mez had a 2x resist check I think which is why it sucked so badly for such a long time.

Bards in groups in vanilla mostly just played mana song, at least in their 30s.

[DMN]

Ahh, I see! I guess I'd only found the bard quote on page 1 of the thread, who was the one I was quoting as wrong. The guy on page 2 makes a lot more sense.

That said.

"
That's correct, all bard AoE (and most AoE spells in general) have a maximum
of four targets now.
"

NOW.

That leads me to believe sometime between march1999 and april1999 bard AoE effected more than 4 targets. Since a dev wrote the word NOW in may 1999.
I started playing in december 1998 (I was in closed beta). So I'm 100% willing to admit it is possible that bard AoE was nerfed on the day the game was released. I could've seen a bard hitting more than 4 targets in beta. Release was actually a lot more buggy than beta, which made it a lot harder to play and form memories about it.

To my reading, that's 4 months without pbaoe, not 6. Of course I'm not in charge. Also you're entirely right about the whole not being able to tell how many targets were effected when I wasn't actually the one playing the bard. Although the bard had done it "on purpose". Of course they were singing an attack speed debuff song (presumably, it could've been some sort of mez or calm I suppose too based on the colors). This wasn't at all a pbaoe kiting swarm tactic. Bard's were a lot less informed about their abilities in 1999. Basically what the bard was doing was something no one on p99 would do, because it wasn't correct, they were debuffing and melee'ing a group of lower level enemies, heck, since I wasn't them, and they actually just caused me to leave, they may have just been trying to gain skillups in defense or dodge or some such.

Come to think of it release was actually so buggy I couldn't even login for a week or two. Despite playing in beta beforehand just fine even when gfay regularly had 250+ people in it. So, it's possible the devs nerfed all aoe's in march 1999 in order to help address server strain. Server strain definitely almost killed the game. Day 1 of release is a time between day 1 and may1999. The dev would've had a prospective even more pronounced than mine (of not really seeing everquest 1 as having started in march1999, for me it started in december 1998, and for him it started in 1997 or some such).

It's probably impossible to find out when pbaoe was nerfed between march1999 and may1999. Which means I totally understand going with the limit of 4. Although, one thing the dev does mention in his example post.... is something about aggro'ing 7 enemies despite only effecting 4. This could explain what the bard I saw was doing. They may have even thought their song was working on more than 4 targets, even if it in fact was not. Since the discussion seems to be about the fact that in may 1999 pbaoe spells would aggro ALL enemies in their range, despite only effecting 4. It would be really cool though if someone did find proof of when pbaoe was nerfed. Personally I still believe that at very least before release of the game the nerf down to 4 had not been implemented yet. It would be pretty silly though for p99 to leave in the game something the devs deemed to be a horrible problem and patched out as soon as possible. So even if someone did find proof that it worked for the first 2-6 weeks or some such, it might make sense to not act on it.

On p99 I think enemies are only aggro'd by pbaoe if they're effected by it. Right? However it probably makes sense to leave it that way, since it was likely unintended that the songs would aggro more targets than they would effect?


When the AoE spells/songs were introduced in beta they all had infinite numbers of targets. As an interesting side note, believe it or not, from my recollections they were actually more concerned with server instability than anything related to balance.

[Vyal]

https://i.imgur.com/8J09Tll.png

That isn't right at all here's the proofs.

http://www.wtfman.com/mcd/mayjunejuly.htm

:cool:

[DMN]

Maybe they were exaggerating for effect? I doubt there are even 45+ tadpole spawns in the swamp, doubly so with the troll/ogre newbies running around killing them. 3 pulses of damage would be 12 dead tadpoles per cast, probably spectacular enough to boast a bit for a newb. He also says "spells", plural, when he only got one at 24. Also, "at one time" is a phrase one can take some liberties with, and it even makes more sense why he would choose to use "spells", since it could mean he cast multiple.


Edit:
For those who don't want to read through, it's some old blog/diary of an EQ player, he/she writes:

5/18/99

. . . After hitting 24th I promptly purchased my new spells, and gathered together every froglok tadpole in the land into one nice big group, laughed as they tried to nibble me as they did oh so not long ago, and basked in the light of self satisfaction watching all 46 of them die at one time to the new improved area effect spells.

[Dolalin]

Shaman's 24th aoe is a rain spell. It would never hit more than 3 targets per rain pulse, in any era that I'm aware of.

[Vyal]

Maybe they were exaggerating for effect? I doubt there are even 45+ tadpole spawns in the swamp, doubly so with the troll/ogre newbies running around killing them. 3 pulses of damage would be 12 dead tadpoles per cast, probably spectacular enough to boast a bit for a newb. He also says "spells", plural, when he only got one at 24. Also, "at one time" is a phrase one can take some liberties with, and it even makes more sense why he would choose to use "spells", since it could mean he cast multiple.


Edit:
For those who don't want to read through, it's some old blog/diary of an EQ player, he/she writes:

5/18/99

. . . After hitting 24th I promptly purchased my new spells, and gathered together every froglok tadpole in the land into one nice big group, laughed as they tried to nibble me as they did oh so not long ago, and basked in the light of self satisfaction watching all 46 of them die at one time to the new improved area effect spells.

froglok tads are level 1 so obviously that isn't what the guy was talking about. If you read his review you can tell how he is. And 46 is a very specific number. 50, 40, 30, dozens, those are numbers you use when you exaggerate.

If you read his review and get past the way he is you'll see it's informative and the guy knew his stuff.

Not only can you see it there but you can ask ANYBODY who remembers playing Everquest when it released and we'll all tell you AoE spells had no limits.

Also this Kendrick guys comment the one dude keeps linking back to was fired and clearly had no idea how to play EQ if you take the time to read anything he posted not only that but he wasn't even part of the original crew. So basing everything on the words of someone who wasn't even part of the developer team at the time and didn't know how to play at all is just... :confused:

5/18/99 A guy named Ron uses AoE on many mobs.

2001 AoE groups in Seb and mentions of previous Chardok groups, highly possible people were doing these much more than anybody previously thought.
https://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?6048/page
"Lucky? If done right you can pull chef/bar and everything in between to D2, all this with 3 wizards/1 chanter/1 cleric/1 SK. The only real limiting factor is the newbness of the people you are working with, not the classes you have!"

Jun 20, 1999
http://twilight.uh-oh.jp/eq/tips/b_song.html
"It is a dissonant music that damages a certain range around you. I can't imagine how to use it clearly. The price is not so high, but I don't think you need to buy it. The only way to say how to use it is to attract a monster to yourself or to take a Yokozuna sumo to help someone who has trained in BB or other places."

[Vyal]

Shaman's 24th aoe is a rain spell. It would never hit more than 3 targets per rain pulse, in any era that I'm aware of.

Wrong.

Classic AoE on video even. This guild only existed from 1999 - 2002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUHDRz1Iv_U

You keep trying to justify mob limits and changing how AoE works because you're afraid of bards or seeing everyone get zoomed but none of this is how the game actually worked.

[DMN]

Kendrick and Kalaran were largely consider the most knowledgeable players for their classes back in the day and (some might even say the game in general). Other than azmodeus those two were the only players virtually everyone knew/heard of back in the day. You really couldn't pick a worse person to dismiss as some ignoramus.

And your video about AoEing on povar... did you see where they are? We are talking about early classic, usually called "vanilla". hence not including kunark and beyond.

And the one dude clearly says improved spellS, despite only having one at 24. That gives the impression he may have cast multiple.

[Dolalin]

I'm done humoring Vyal, it's time to just dismiss him as a troll with an agenda. Because that's what he is.

[Vyal]

Kendrick and Kalaran were largely consider the most knowledgeable players for their classes back in the day and (some might even say the game in general). Other than azmodeus those two were the only players virtually everyone knew/heard of back in the day. You really couldn't pick a worse person to dismiss as some ignoramus.

And your video about AoEing on povar... did you see where they are? We are talking about early classic, usually called "vanilla". hence not including kunark.

And the one dude clearly says improved spellS, despite only having one at 24. That gives the impression he may have cast multiple.

This Kendrick person doesn't seem to know anything and everything linking back to him I have seen is wrong. Plus he wasn't part of the EQ team then either and got fired after he did become part of it.

There is nothing to mass AoE like that pre Kunark anyhow it's just to difficult to get any good pulls in the original dungeons trust me I have tried to pull everything.

When the game first came out there was no limit to AoE spells this much I am absolutely sure of and I have shown evidence dating back to a month after release confirming this.

And it reads from the bottom up.

"And what of those changes. I have taken a look at some of the big name EQ sites lately, the best one one being the site at www.gameznet.com/eq/ If any of you now big time EQ players have not taken a look at the site, I encourage you to do so. However, as informative that the site is, they fail to really get a lot of the details on things that actually mean something, and seem to rely on information sent to them by others. I am planning on doing something somewhat like they do, but based more upon my experiences and what I have encountered or accomplished first hand, and do so in a way that only I can muster. Entertaining yet informative. That's my goal."

waybackmachine for www.gameznet.com/eq/

Poison Storm
This is an area effect poison attack.
https://web.archive.org/web/19991111165643/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/shaman.html

https://web.archive.org/web/19991111164058/http://gameznet.com/eq/spells/bard.html

Fire Flux
Fire flux is an area effect spell based on the caster. That means that this spell will damage all monsters in the immediate area of the caster.
https://web.archive.org/web/19990508204421/http://www.gameznet.com:80/eq/spells/magician.html

https://i.imgur.com/6VPRRJk.jpg

You can't keep ignoring the fact that everyone including some of the biggest EQ websites of the time all say exactly how AoE worked. They do not say there is a limit to the number of mobs a spell can hit and they don't say that because there was never any limit to AoE.

[DMN]

1. Pre-kunark I never saw a bard kiting more than 3-4 mobs.
2. Pre-kunark I never saw a single bard talking about swarm kiting for than 3-4 mobs either
3. I kept close track of the first level 50s on most servers and don't ever recall a bard being first. (was virtually always a necro or a druid, or something like a "guild cleric" being played 24-7 by 3-4 different people.)
4. The more knowledgeable bards did use a much more complicated way to get exp fast on a bard, which involved kiting 3-4 mobs and mixing up charming and having them beat each other, similar to how necro/enchanters charm-kill stuff. Why would they resort to this much more complicated scheme if they could simply swarm kite?

[Vyal]

1. Pre-kunark I never saw a bard kiting more than 3-4 mobs.
2. Pre-kunark I never saw a single bard talking about swarm kiting for than 3-4 mobs either
3. I kept close track of the first level 50s on most servers and don't ever recall a bard being first. (was virtually always a necro or a druid, or something like a "guild cleric" being played 24-7 by 3-4 different people.)
4. The more knowledgeable bards did use a much more complicated way to get exp fast on a bard, which involved kiting 3-4 mobs and mixing up charming and having them beat each other, similar to how necro/enchanters charm-kill stuff. Why would they resort to this much more complicated scheme if they could simply swarm kite?

What server were you on and what was your character name then?

There wasn't many bards on Sol Ro I hardly remember any at all in the early days.

Also pre-Kunark bards hit a huge wall once they hit 25 or so not only do they fall off hard because there isn't many mobs to kite but it's ruff to get a group.

Bards can only really start kiting huge groups of mobs and keep leveling fast once Kunark comes out.

Can you find any pictures of a bard only kiting 4 mobs because I can't and for that matter I can't find any pictures of a bard kiting anything.

[Dolalin]

Don't feed the troll. He has nothing useful to add.

[Jibartik]

I think it is up to Vyal to find a dated screenshot of an AOE hitting more than 4 creatures. At this point the evidence greatly outweighs the contrary evidence.

He has discredited newsgroups and patch notes, and supplied an edgelord blog as "proof!"

I usually support all EQ fans but vyal is off his rocker. I would love to know the truth, but vyal I do not stand behind your arguments at all. Maybe if you reduced your post count by 90% and spent that time researching and finding a NEW link to defend your arguments, I might start thinking you're contributing.

But what you're doing now is the opposite of contributing.

[Jibartik]

Wrong.

Classic AoE on video even. This guild only existed from 1999 - 2002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUHDRz1Iv_U

You keep trying to justify mob limits and changing how AoE works because you're afraid of bards or seeing everyone get zoomed but none of this is how the game actually worked.

Vyal this isnt a video of poison storm LOL

I suggest you collate all your data, make a succinct post and argument,

show the counter points, then show your PROOF that the counter point is wrong.

But this mass posting about what you're feeling and repeating yourself and addressing every post you can all at once without giving time to really fine tune your arguments, is only resulting in you losing your battle even harder.

I want to know the truth. Just like most players here.

You have not once made me think that you had a good argument with the evidence you share. Nor do I think your evidence ever supports your arguments.

[DMN]

Played on fennin, rallos and the test server.

And there are plenty of places that you would have for sure seen bards swarm kiting if it was a thing. Crocs/orcs in oasis? Spiders/aviaks/gnolls/wisps/random furry shit in the karanas? Maybe mammoths all over everfrost? I'm sure the bard experts on p99 could point out more in vanilla EQ. And I'm not sure what hitting a wall at 25 has to do with anything? The reality is bards would have still be seen swarm kiting and it would have been a well known "thing" if it was happening. People would have seen them skyrocketing through levels on new servers, too, and saying "hey, wtf is up with this guy leveling so fast" even if in certain level ranges they may slow down. You'd probably also see posts of people pissed ff about bards stealing all the mobs to kite them, just like on p99.


And bards had an incredibly easy time getting groups. Enchanters/bards were rare but every group wanted mana faster. Even if you were a complete anti-social moron and terrible at the game you'd find a group that would happily let you drool in the corner playing the mana song.

People rarely kited just 3-4 mobs even well after release because the the internet was shit, peoples computers were shit, the servers were shit, and most people didn't know shit. So it's not surprising you have a hard time finding contemporary information about it.

[Sunderfury]

I found a post from Brad McQuaid I mentioned here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334656
+ Enhanced AoE Spells to let Wizard effect more creatures
+ Enhanced AoE Spells to let Magicians effect more creatures

These changes are not mentioned for bards / clerics / enchanters. Not that the list isn't missing some things, and not that Dolain's original post isn't compelling.

[Vyal]

I think it is up to Vyal to find a dated screenshot of an AOE hitting more than 4 creatures. At this point the evidence greatly outweighs the contrary evidence.

He has discredited newsgroups and patch notes, and supplied an edgelord blog as "proof!"

I usually support all EQ fans but vyal is off his rocker. I would love to know the truth, but vyal I do not stand behind your arguments at all. Maybe if you reduced your post count by 90% and spent that time researching and finding a NEW link to defend your arguments, I might start thinking you're contributing.

But what you're doing now is the opposite of contributing.

I'm half tempted to download EQ login to my old account show you the play time, the title "Burning Champion" which was given out less then a month after the game came out.

I played back then I know what i'm talking about, that Ron guy knows what he's talking about, all the spell data sites that say "The AoE spell hits ALL the mobs around the caster" knows what they are talking about.

Imagine for a moment it is a month after the game comes out and you post how a level 4 AoE spell works and 20 years later not one person has corrected you and all the major sites still say "This spell hits ALL the monsters around the caster".

Just stop trying to screw up the way classic was because you think some AoE caster is going to steal everything from you. That's all i'm asking alright.

If you played tell me the server and character name you had if you didn't play who are you to argue with someone that did?

[Jibartik]

I will tell you this much vyal, I will never take your word for anything. But If you can prove it, I'd be your ally.

[Vyal]

I found a post from Brad McQuaid I mentioned here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334656


These changes are not mentioned for bards / clerics / enchanters. Not that the list isn't missing some things, and not that Dolain's original post isn't compelling.

"+ Enhanced AoE Spells to let Magicians effect more creatures"
But you don't know exactly what that means.
It could mean that some creatures didn't take damage from the spell not that the spell didn't actually damage many mobs at once.
You also don't know what spells exactly were effected.
Was it rain spells possibly only hitting one mob?
Rain spells were buggy as hell back then they didn't work as intended half the time.
It could just mean they fixed rain spells so that they worked correctly.
You can see a comment at the bottom
"If you don't believe it .. explain to me why the 'rain enhancement'
wasn't listed."
I don't have any idea what that means.

There isn't enough evidence there to determine anything for certainty unless of course you just go by what people who played then actually say.

[Vyal]

Played on fennin, rallos and the test server.

And there are plenty of places that you would have for sure seen bards swarm kiting if it was a thing. Crocs/orcs in oasis? Spiders/aviaks/gnolls/wisps/random furry shit in the karanas? Maybe mammoths all over everfrost? I'm sure the bard experts on p99 could point out more in vanilla EQ. And I'm not sure what hitting a wall at 25 has to do with anything? The reality is bards would have still be seen swarm kiting and it would have been a well known "thing" if it was happening. People would have seen them skyrocketing through levels on new servers, too, and saying "hey, wtf is up with this guy leveling so fast" even if in certain level ranges they may slow down. You'd probably also see posts of people pissed ff about bards stealing all the mobs to kite them, just like on p99.


And bards had an incredibly easy time getting groups. Enchanters/bards were rare but every group wanted mana faster. Even if you were a complete anti-social moron and terrible at the game you'd find a group that would happily let you drool in the corner playing the mana song.

People rarely kited just 3-4 mobs even well after release because the the internet was shit, peoples computers were shit, the servers were shit, and most people didn't know shit. So it's not surprising you have a hard time finding contemporary information about it.

You'll see bards won't be the first to 50 on green either. Once they hit 25 everyone will catch up and be miles ahead because there won't be anything for them to kite.

[DMN]

You'll see bards won't be the first to 50 on green either. Once they hit 25 everyone will catch up and be miles ahead because there won't be anything for them to kite.

Go to south karana. Problem solved. You only need 27 for charm.

[Glasken]

I'm half tempted to download EQ login to my old account show you the play time, the title "Burning Champion" which was given out less then a month after the game came out.

I played back then I know what i'm talking about, that Ron guy knows what he's talking about, all the spell data sites that say "The AoE spell hits ALL the mobs around the caster" knows what they are talking about.

Imagine for a moment it is a month after the game comes out and you post how a level 4 AoE spell works and 20 years later not one person has corrected you and all the major sites still say "This spell hits ALL the monsters around the caster".

Just stop trying to screw up the way classic was because you think some AoE caster is going to steal everything from you. That's all i'm asking alright.

If you played tell me the server and character name you had if you didn't play who are you to argue with someone that did?


While I can find plenty of entertainment and pleasure in a well formed anecdote, it isnt data.

Find and post -evidence-, and see everyone sway to your side. Keep posting fond memories demanding people accept them as fact, and watch potential allies flee from you like rats from a ship.

[Vyal]

While I can find plenty of entertainment and pleasure in a well formed anecdote, it isnt data.

Find and post -evidence-, and see everyone sway to your side. Keep posting fond memories demanding people accept them as fact, and watch potential allies flee from you like rats from a ship.

I posted 3 pieces of evidence about AoE's.
Since it's the same few people who continue to say after I post it to post it. I'm fairly certain you guys are the type of people who think you're always right and no matter what you just can't accept the truth. In today's world it's a sickness, people can only accept the truths comfortable to them.

But I know AoE spells had no limits and it's such a stupid thing to even argue about. I know for certain the only time an AoE didn't hit many targets was because the game itself had many flaws when it came to casting them. You can chalk that up to bad client server code, connections, whatever, but when the spells worked correctly there was no limits.

Even if p99 devs refuses to make AoE classic because they think you lot of people are going to cry about bards or something stupid it's fine. When green drops I promise i'll probably be one of the first to 50 with manastone nothing is going to slow me down.

Not having AoE work correctly sucks for sure and it really is going to take much enjoyment out of the game for me. But there's some people who still play I know and have asked me to play on Green and before I even knew about all the changes to AoE I invited 20+ to come join. Not that there is even much to AoE or kite before Kunark anyways...

But you guys really need to stop this war you have on AoE casters.

You saw the video didn't you?
This one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUHDRz1Iv_U
You can see right here is an example of AoE group, there is more then 25 mobs there but on p99 you can't pull 25 mobs. Do you not understand how you wanting to keep changing how the game works screws up the way the game was?

[Sunderfury]

I didn't take the time to count each faction hit, but that didn't seem like 25 mobs to me. If it was more it isn't by leaps and bounds.

Regardless, take a breath and just accept it for now. View it this way, even if not mechanically classic, you have to admit people didn't know these strats from day 1 and use them en masse. So just view it as an "in the spirit of classic" change if that helps.

Hell, pretty sure there was huge server issues first few weeks where people were getting kicked consistently. I remember constant LDs where we would yell, "get to the path! Get to the path! " so we would know where our corpse was when we got back in.

[Vyal]

I didn't take the time to count each faction hit, but that didn't seem like 25 mobs to me. If it was more it isn't by leaps and bounds.

Regardless, take a breath and just accept it for now. View it this way, even if not mechanically classic, you have to admit people didn't know these strats from day 1 and use them en masse. So just view it as an "in the spirit of classic" change if that helps.

Hell, pretty sure there was huge server issues first few weeks where people were getting kicked consistently. I remember constant LDs where we would yell, "get to the path! Get to the path! " so we would know where our corpse was when we got back in.

You're right and ya that pull on video looked a wee bit light ;) And now that you said that I remember running to paths now. But still those things which you can't do on Blue you could do in classic. I get the idea of the change from Rogeans or nilbogs perspective but not from the players I don't comprehend why anyone would and continues to support limits to their own player especially not being original.
Rogean and nilbog are top shelf, I can't think of anyone with more knowledge of client server things then Rogean aside from maybe that guy called Image the Gimp and for all I know maybe that was Rogean. So don't think i'm talking shit about these 2 people because i'm not.

You know my stance on AoE. I would simply make the game mechanics classic. No mob limits, and no PB AoE damage limits. First there isn't enough mobs for anyone including bards to really monopolize zones like there is during the Kunark era. You ain't going to see low level AoE groups in Blackburrow or Guk or wherever because these zones are pretty hard to make that type of pull. You would have to get all the way in then run all the way out get healed and it just doesn't work.
Bards would have many mobs to kite up till 25 then that's it after that they won't be getting any 25+ mob pulls until Kunark.
Make the game how it was originally and then if things become a huge problem the code is ready to go and implement the 25 mob limit again. But don't screw with AoE targets the only reason they didn't work right was because it was 1999 and nothing worked right. Leave them go and work as they were intended to work don't try to simulate a bad connection by placing limits on things.

[DMN]

I can't help but think there is a failure to communicate here.

You keep saying "classic", and in P99 vernacular "classic" is everything between and inclusive of vanilla and velious. It's a shitload of changes and patches to fundamental aspects of the game, which does indeed include increasing the AoE target amounts. Also, sadly, some of changes never made it into the patch notes.

[Vyal]

I can't help but think there is a failure to communicate here.

You keep saying "classic", and in P99 vernacular "classic" is everything between and inclusive of vanilla and velious. It's a shitload of changes and patches to fundamental aspects of the game, which does indeed include increasing the AoE target amounts. Also, sadly, some of changes never made it into the patch notes.

classic as in original, as in the very start of the game

And you say it includes increasing the target AoE amounts but that isn't exactly what the patch notes say.

It only says certain AoE spells were fixed to effect more mobs.
That could mean different things.

It could mean that certain spells were bugged thanks to server/client, and connectivity issues which made them not work as they were intended to work and as time went on the issue got fixed to make sure it worked correctly.
Possibly it was only targeted AoE rain spells that was being mentioned. I will tell you these spells hardly ever worked correctly when the game was brand new, sometimes they did but most of the time they didn't and only hit one or two mobs (but that wasn't by design).

This is a comment was a reply to the list.
"That was a great list showing everything people already knew about (great
propagande). The problem is they only announce the 'enhancements' and not
the nerfs (unless the nerf is 'for the good of the game'.
If you don't believe it .. explain to me why the 'rain enhancement'
wasn't listed.

Antheus"

Do you understand? These AoE spells were intended to hit everything, they did in beta according to those who played beta (I did not) and it wasn't until you had 2 to 3 thousand players on released servers that they started to get wonky and not work correctly. But PB AE spells always hit everything, rain was hit or miss.

These spells and songs were created to work a certain way. There is ample proof of how all these spells worked.

May, 8th 1999 - EQ Lizer Mage Spell List
https://web.archive.org/web/19990508204421/http://www.gameznet.com:80/eq/spells/magician.html

You can't justify any changes to the way these spells were intended to work and be used because you want to simulate terrible 1999 server and connection problems. It is damn near impossible to replicate the problems that caused the spells to not work correctly now and even if you could do such a thing why would anybody support it? No it isn't original, and it wasn't how the spells were supposed to work.

It would be like adding in a new system to p99 saying all players will have a random chance at disconnecting every 15 minutes because that's the spirit of the game.
To me it's absolutely absurd anyone supports dumb stuff like this.

[DMN]

The "wave" spells weren't messed up, people just didn't understand how they were supposed to work very well.

there were no enemies that were "immune" to AoE spells that weren't also immune to other spells. So the patch notes wouldn't specific AoE spell targets, but spells in general, if that's what the patch was trying to say.

"beta" much like "classic" is just a time frame of many changes to the game. AoE spells initially had no limit on targets. This was nerfed by release not for "balance" reasons, but for concerns of server/client stability.

[Vyal]

The "wave" spells weren't messed up, people just didn't understand how they were supposed to work very well.

there were no enemies that were "immune" to AoE spells that weren't also immune to other spells. So the patch notes wouldn't specific AoE spell targets, but spells in general, if that's what the patch was trying to say.

"beta" much like "classic" is a time frame of many changes to the game. AoE spells initially had no limit on targets. This was nerfed by release not for "balance" reasons, but for concerns of server/client stability.

No PB AE worked correctly most targeted AE did not.
That doesn't change the way the spells were supposed to work.

The spells were never supposed to be limited, it's extremely possible and highly probably that these change logs from back then are referring to fixes put in to correct problems from having thousands of people online and they are not saying that prior to the fix AoE spells were intended to work differently.

I'm going to leave this thread now take away from it what you will.

[Daldaen]

Wrong.

Classic AoE on video even. This guild only existed from 1999 - 2002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUHDRz1Iv_U

You keep trying to justify mob limits and changing how AoE works because you're afraid of bards or seeing everyone get zoomed but none of this is how the game actually worked.

This video makes me miss HP bars slowly creeping up after getting healed rather than the instant jump the Titanium client shows.

But I think everyone knows PBAE limits by Kunark/Velious were not a thing, it seems that there were some short lived ones in classic per the evidence in this thread. However while there may not have been PBAE limits I believe there were aggro limits to the number of mobs you could kite around, these weren’t hard aggro limits but you’d run into issues with mobs ghosting, and eventually leashing due to lagging behind.

I can only speak to my experience on the Mac server which isn’t exactly Velious era but it was the oldest client we had available in the past decade, and you could pull 30+ mobs and they’d lag a bit but nothing unmanageable. Once you reached the 50-80+ range you were dealing with a huge amount of ghosting mobs, warping and desynching of zones.

I think if we are aiming for a more classic experience it’s not PBAE limits to target (except for the classic period as mentioned above which seems to be a timeline fix), but instead a cap on the number of mobs you can keep on aggro before they start ghosting behind you and losing aggro. Cap players on being able to kite or hold aggro on like 40-50~ mobs and that would be a nice balance between classic mechanics and classic experience.

[Nirgon]

.

Coach cast shoulda never come close

[Vyal]

This video makes me miss HP bars slowly creeping up after getting healed rather than the instant jump the Titanium client shows.

But I think everyone knows PBAE limits by Kunark/Velious were not a thing, it seems that there were some short lived ones in classic per the evidence in this thread. However while there may not have been PBAE limits I believe there were aggro limits to the number of mobs you could kite around, these weren’t hard aggro limits but you’d run into issues with mobs ghosting, and eventually leashing due to lagging behind.

I can only speak to my experience on the Mac server which isn’t exactly Velious era but it was the oldest client we had available in the past decade, and you could pull 30+ mobs and they’d lag a bit but nothing unmanageable. Once you reached the 50-80+ range you were dealing with a huge amount of ghosting mobs, warping and desynching of zones.

I think if we are aiming for a more classic experience it’s not PBAE limits to target (except for the classic period as mentioned above which seems to be a timeline fix), but instead a cap on the number of mobs you can keep on aggro before they start ghosting behind you and losing aggro. Cap players on being able to kite or hold aggro on like 40-50~ mobs and that would be a nice balance between classic mechanics and classic experience.

The biggest problem is that back then people didn't understand they could. Also before Kunark there really wasn't anywhere to kite around 50+ mobs as a bard. For many reasons.
There was thousands of players meaning there wasn't many mob to be kited for starters.
Up till around level 25 you could find areas to kite many mobs but again you would run into the first problem (too many players not enough mobs) and unless you had some twinked out bard you would get dead anyhow.
AoE groups really wouldn't work either because first of all nobody really knew how to do them. They really had no way to learn how to do them either because again there was always too many people in a zone to go screwing around trying out new techniques but even if someone could try to pull off an AoE I know how hard it would be to do.

Big AoE and bard kites never were a real thing until after Kunark came out and it wasn't because the game prevented it. Well I guess in a way it did but a really smart person who really wanted to do it could have found a way but again you would run into all the people and train the ever living hell out of everyone just to try and probably fail.

I should also note I don't think the original client has a forward auto strafe like when you hit W + D + RMB at the same time to lock it in. It had to all be done by hand pretty much.

This is prior to the patch that people are saying bards could only hit 4 mobs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>9/11/99<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Extreme Kiting: Killing 6 Reds at once.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/aoe|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/US9YhzsjC0Q/DrsSx8vPsE8J

Here is something I did last night. Will I do it again? ehhh probably
not.
I just reached level 18 with my Bard. I got the dischord song. What it
does for those of you who dont know is about 30 pts of damage of 10
seconds or something like that to everything around the bard.
Has to be played with an instrument.

I had kited some things before but found it rather boring and didnt
care buch for it. I had used bellow before. 10 pts to one target.
Even with the dischord song it took about 10-15 mins to kite something
to death. Not really worth it even if it was a red con.

So I figured if it takes 10-15 mins to kite something why not kite
multiple things at once? So I ran up and down the beach of oasis
bellowing anything that was blue or higher. By the time I was done I
had about 4 Deepwater crocs on me, and 2 deepwater caimens. The 4 DWC
were reds and the 2 caimens were yellows.

So I had 6 mobs following me around the zone. I found a relativeley
safe place and began kiting with the dischord song. Now in order for
this song to hit, you bards all know, you have to be REALLY close to
your opponent. IN this case 6 of them. Now DWCrocs hit HARD. LIke for
40 pts vs my bard. If you even let them nip at your heels ONCE you are
prety much done for.

So i started kiting. A few mins in I got caught by the entire group of
them. I took about 275 pts of damage in the span of about 1 second.
LUCKILY I wasnt stunned and could keep running. If I had been stunned I
would have died for sure.
A GM was watching me the entire time as well. He never said anything.
Some other characters had seen what I was doing and were watching. I
had them all to more than half damage so wasnt worried about kill
stealing by that time.
Some people were commenting that I was being greedy.

When it was all said and done I had taken down 6 crocs, 4 of which
conned red and 2 that had conned yellow. I think I gained more than a
bubble of xp in about 15 mins.

Now I dont know if I would pull another stunt like this again. I was
LUCKY not to have died, but this is just an example of what kiting can
do in an extreme case. If you were VERY good you could have had 10-12
mobs on you at once ALL RED, and killed them all, IF you didnt mess up.
Believe me, this form of kiting with the dischord song, is soooo
dangerous. I re-iterate you have to be RIGHT near the mob for it to
take effect. One virtual foot to far and nada, one too close and 6 mobs
rip you to bits.

I assume the upcoming nerf will take care of this tactic as well.
Not that I would use it anymore. Frankly kiting is boring but I must
say when you have 6 on you its a little more exciting knowing you could
be dead at any time if you slip up. And I do many times.
As to the risk vs xp reward, I think I was in an EXTREME amount of risk
doing this. Hell I tried it once and almost died. BUT I dont think its
reasonable to be able to take down 6 reds at once no matter what the
risk.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>September 13th, 9:00am<<<<<<<<<<<<<
New Patch Message
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/aoe|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/7AxIAP0gu5A/wYXzrc1eohEJ

- A bug in some of the AoE code has been fixed - AoE spells will now effect
more monsters.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>9/14/99<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Wow! The bitching is almost universal now.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/aoe|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/m1H_I-gg3qI/hyiS2lA-DBcJ

Just about the only class not affected are the Bards

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The game is very old and people have learned many things. You can't MiB flashy thing people so that they get amnesia but it would be cool if you could. There's so much I want to forget just so I can relive it totally fresh like tv anime =/

[Jibartik]

This thread is like, some serious shit man.

*80's cop movie music intensifies

Heh you know what I want to know, why does that guy have this website in his sig https://web.archive.org/web/19991111052608/http://www.deja.com/ what a weird website to have in a fantasy game sig. :o

[DMN]

If there is a cap of 4 targets, and you pull 8 mobs. While you double your "kite time" you will still functionally be kiting 8 mobs. The max number of Aoe targets doesn't change the number of mobs you can theoretically kite.

[Dolalin]

Vyal's last link is about the DoT kiting damage nerf. It's not relevant to pbae target limits.

His link about the bard kiting story is legit though. The bard says all his targets were below half so that sounds like it was hitting all six targets at once.

So as late as May we have Kendrick and one other bard saying that bard pbae was limited, like "almost all" AoE, to four targets. We have a restatement of that in June to no objections.

Then in September just before the AoE patch we have a bard kiting six mobs at once in what seemed like a novel tactic.

That would place the removal of pbae target limits sometime between June and September.

I think what might have happened is that the limit was removed before the official patch message was released, probably with a server side patch in scheduled downtime. Verant did that sometimes.

The pbae limits are still firmly evidenced for launch and the first few months of Green though, unless you can find earlier stories, Vyal.

[Jibartik]

hehe saw Vyal practicing for green today. https://i.imgur.com/1U4515P.mp4 :o

[Vyal]

hehe saw Vyal practicing for green today. https://i.imgur.com/1U4515P.mp4 :o

I wouldn't run like that :cool:
Truth is I don't play Blue I guess it's been around 5 years since I have. But I did check into some of my accounts recently to make sure they were alright and to make sure I had the login info right, i'm still reading over 5 years worth of changes.
Sadly I still didn't find my mule :(

If AoE limits remain just know these are not original, also know that especially on Blue server they shouldn't be in.
There's nothing like finding an empty zone and killing all the mobs in it. GM can frown upon that and i'm sure some did on SoE EQ as well but it is supposed to be allowed in the game.
Either way i'll be playing Green however the AoE works, does it work properly or does it get castrated right off the bat. I probably won't be playing a bard either it's just too much of a gamble of how far they are willing to nerf the class. 25 mobs or 4 mobs neither is how it worked so how far they will go is anyones guess.

[DMN]

His link about the bard kiting story is legit though. The bard says all his targets were below half so that sounds like it was hitting all six targets at once.

But it's not, really. You'd have to scroll around on your ui back then to even determine you hit more than 4 enemies. You'd just see damage spam fill up your Ui and think you must be hitting everything. if you have a group of 8 balled up and they all are exactly the same speed you will end up spreading the damage around to all of them generally equally. Notice how he one of the other guys in those comments says "he usually does 4"? That's because beyond 4 you are going to start to have more mobs living longer after some started to die off earlier due to RNG. Those guys then think that beyond 4 is a problem because the enemies are not being "balled up correctly". All they are seeing is that their actual AoE cap was only 4 mobs and trying to make "logical" sense of it their poorer kite time/mob hit point differences.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Dolalin View Post
His link about the bard kiting story is legit though. The bard says all his targets were below half so that sounds like it was hitting all six targets at once.

I agree with this but I also totally concur that a cocky ass everquest player would assume all the mobs were half life when only 4 were haha

46 froglock tads! Everquest is amazing!

;)

Edit: But Vyal it is great research and is damning but I am still standing on the fence, because there is also good evidence still for the other side of it.

[Dolalin]

It must be the case that pbae, at least bard pbae, was bugged (or gimped on purpose to help with server stability) and then fixed sometime between June and September.

The alternative is that Kendrick and the eqbards list were having a mass hallucination, I just don't believe it.

[Sunderfury]

Moving to resolved as patch rule has been implemented.

[dropletz]

Hello, Just read the posts and such, I do remember when I first started to play EQ, I chose warrior then after 2 weeks I changed to a bard because I saw a bard killing and running around with a lot of things chasing him. I started to play 2 weeks after launch, but I don't remember if there was a 'cap' limit, but I do remember him killing all of the monsters roughly the same time. It did take him about 5-10 minutes. When I was playing a bard I didn't try to aoe kite until i was lvl 16 ish, but when I did kite I do not remember pbaoe's having a limit. I would kill roughly 10-12 mobs. which would of been around the 2nd or 3rd month from release. not sure if that helps any, probably not because I don't have any evidence.