Melee Damage (Long)

[Treats]

Most of the data is obtained from here which was originally posted on September 8, 2000:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1541

First Graph and explanation of main hand damage from 2000:

http://users.erols.com/aburner/eq/1hbgraph.gif

This is the Damage Profile of my Journeyman's Walking Stick (9/24) as wielded mostly in my Primary hand. I got this graph by logging all of my combats so far in 46th level, then going in with a text editor and removing everything but the "You crush" or "You try to crush" messages. Since my offhand weapon is a Kunzar Ku'Juch (1HSlash), this left me with a logfile of nothing but my hits with the Journeyman's Walking Stick.

You will notice that there are a few hits for Damage values from 1 to 7. These come from a few battles where I (for tactical reasons) switched hands and put the JWS in my offhand. Since the offhand doesn't get the Level Damage Bonus, my minimum damage for the JWS in the offhand is 1. There was no easy or consistent way to weed these battles out of the graph, so I just left them in. So pretend that they're not there.

The first thing to note are the two prominent peaks on the graph. The biggest peak falls at what we call the "Magic Number." The Magic Number is a Damage value that, at 28th or higher (and possibly at 20th or higher) can be calculated with the formula:

[(2 * DMG) + (Level Damage Bonus)]

The Journeyman's Walking Stick has a DMG of 9. According to this formula, my Magic Number will be [(2 * 9) + (7)] == (18 + 7) == 25.

And sure enough, the biggest peak falls on 25.

(It's called the "Magic Number" because it's the amount of damage you will hit for the most. Around 20% of your total hits will be for the Magic Number.)

The second peak falls at the Minimum Damage (aka MIN). From 28th level onward (and possibly 20th level onward), MIN can also be precisely calculated as follows:

1 + (Level Damage Bonus)

According to this, my MIN should be 1 + 7, or 8. And sure enough, the second peak on my Damage Profile is at 8.

You will notice that the majority of hits fall between these two peaks in a roughly (VERY roughly) even distribution. I say "even" because the lesser peaks between MIN and the Magic Number are almost always compensated by "valleys". In other words, there is a small peak at 12. But there's a "valley" at 9, which tends to even out the peak at 12.

Above the Magic Number, we have two types of hits. The first type are normal hits up to Max Damage (MAX).

According to the most accurate formula we have currently, your MAX can be calculated thus:

[((Weapon Skill + Strength)/100) * (DMG)) + (Level Damage Bonus)]

According to this, with my 110 STR, my max damage for the primary hand wielding a JWS should be:

[((200 + 110)/100) * (9)] + 7 == (3.1 * 9) + 7 == 27.9 + 7 == 34.9

------------------------------------------------------------------

From Project 1999:

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5037/pierce.png

Level 50 Warrior
210 Offense
185 Strength
8 Damage Bonus

This is the Damage Profile of Warrior with a Beetle Stinger (9/23) wielded in Primary hand on Project 1999 (sample is a lot smaller). On Project 1999 Offense is used instead of Weapon skill in damage calculations. Everything falls in line with the post from 2000 except for the range of damage.

Minimum hit -- Weapon Damage + 1 (8 + 1 = 9)

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage + Damage Bonus
(210 + 185) / 100 * 8 + 8 = 39.6 (Higher Values on the graph are Crits)

The problem seems to be with the range from Minimum to Maximum.

Magic Number -- Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus (8 * 2) + 8 = 24

There is no magic number. If there is it seems to be maximum damage instead. The Minimum looks fine but there should be a greater concentration of hits between 9 and 24 with the most occuring at 24. After 24 it should be gradually dropping off as you get closer to Maximum damage. Estimating the total number of hits on the graph from 2000 - 3750 total. He states about 20% of them should be for the magic number. The magic number probably went higher than 460 and all the way off the graph. 460 for magic number (12.666%), 390 for minimum (10.4%). This is just an estimate.

The incorrect RNG seems to be the problem for melee damage on P99. Huge percentage of hits for max damage, next highest at minimum, and a low percentage in between. I have parsed two hand damage and flying kick for a Monk and those damage tables look almost identical to the Warriors. Have not tested any of the other skills, assuming those graphs would look similar.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bash/Slam damage seems off here on P99 as well.

From 2000:

http://users.erols.com/aburner/eq/bashgraph1.gif

This is a damage profile for my Bash skill. I always dual-wield, and I always ghetto-bash. So I was able to edit my log with a text editor and remove everything but the bashes.

There is a big peak at 12 and a smaller peak at 1. Since Bash is done with the offhand, it doesn't get the Level Damage Bonus. So the Magic Number should be (2 * DMG). Since (2 * DMG) appears to equal 12 in this case, I surmise that Bash is a DMG 6 "weapon." Plugging this DMG value in to the MAX formula seems to confirm this, because if Bash is a DMG 6 "weapon," my MAX Bash damage at 110 STR should be 18, which fits the graph. The hits for 20, 22, and 30 are critical hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------

From Project 1999:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4839/basha.png

Level 50 Warrior
210 Offense
185 Strength

According to this post Bash/Slam should be a 6 damage weapon used in the offhand. No damage bonus.

Minimum hit -- 1

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage
(210 + 185) / 100 * 6 = 23.7

Magic number -- Weapon Damage * 2
6 * 2 = 12

No hits for 1 and nothing higher than 4.

[Treats]

One hand damage looks pretty close to what the numbers look like in the above post now. Excellent job on this Kanras or whoever made this happen. Here's recent parses:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5037/pierce.png

Level 51 Warrior
215 Offense
193 Strength
8 Damage Bonus

Damage Profile of Warrior with a Blood Point (10/21) wielded in Primary hand. Not sure if offense is still used in the formula instead of Weapon skill in damage calculations.

Minimum hit -- Weapon Damage + 1 (10 + 1 = 11)

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage + Damage Bonus
(215 + 193) / 100 * 10 + 8 = 48.8

Magic Number -- Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus (10 * 2) + 8 = 28

Looks like the final calculation is being rounded up instead of down (48.8 to 49 instead of 48)? Not sure on this. Other than that this looks REALLY close. Maybe a larger percentage of hits from Min to magic number, less from magic to Max.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Offhand Damage (Bloodfire 11/24)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8782/slashoh.png

Minimum hit -- 1

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage
(215 + 193) / 100 * 11 = 44.88

Magic Number -- Weapon Damage * 2 (11 * 2) = 22

Same as described above, only one point off. Maybe a larger percentage between min and magic number.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Bash damage (Using Slam with two One handers)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9562/bashy.png

Base Bash damage = 6

Minimum hit -- 1

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage
(215 + 193) / 100 * 6 = 24.48

Magic number -- Weapon Damage * 2
6 * 2 = 12

I parsed a little bit bashing with my Paladin and a Fiery Avenger and I think I remember my max bash being 24. Two hand damage seems a little off as well, still need to do a parse with that. Seems as there are too many hits for Min damage. Will do that next and post the numbers. Again excellent job with this, looks great.

[Versus]

WTB attention to this thread. Looks like more work was done here than I could ever hope to do for P99.

[kanras]

- Looks like all damages got offset by one when I was fixing how the minimum damage modifier got applied. Will fix.
- Minimum damage for primary is Damage Bonus + 1, not Weapon Damage + 1.
- Slam is a 0 base damage weapon, where Bash is a 2 base damage weapon. So assuming you have max bash skill, that is why your FA bash is acting like a 4 damage attack instead of a 6 damage attack.
- You would probably get a little bit heavier distribution between min and magic number if you had less STR/ATK.

Thanks for the quick post, Treats.

[ryandward]

Why can't more people make threads like this?

[ryandward]

This is definitely something I noticed, but I was never able to put my finger on it. I am sure you used some PERL data manipulation to extract all this info? Good job.

[Treats]

Sorry, had the right numbers in for Minimum damage before, dunno why I wrote Weapon damage for it instead of Damage Bonus. Heres a recent parse for a Two hander.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3359/palslash.png

Level 51 Paladin
203 Offense
127 Strength
14 Damage bonus

Paladin with Fiery Avenger (33/44).

Minimum hit -- Damage Bonus + 1 (14 + 1 = 15)

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage + Damage Bonus
(203 + 127) / 100 * 33 + 14 = 122.9

Magic Number -- Weapon Damage * 2 + Damage Bonus (33 * 2) + 14 = 80

Looks fantastic too.

Bash graph:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3571/palbash.png

Level 51 Paladin
203 Offense
127 Strength

Minimum hit -- 1

Maximum hit -- (Offense + Strenth) / 100 * Weapon Damage
(203 + 127) / 100 * 6 = 19.8

Magic Number -- Weapon Damage * 2
6 * 2 = 12

Just one point off it looks like same as the others. From the numbers here I'm getting 6 as a base damage on these calculations for Bash and 4 as a base for Slam. I may not be understanding what you're explaining with bash/slam. This looks great though as is.

[Zereh]

Why can't more people make threads like this?

Because melee = hard and fast numbers

Spells = a million little intangibles

[Torven]

I have some Velious era parses on the unkillable mist panther in wakening lands at various levels of attack and armor class with and without item haste if they would be at all useful.

[Ripp]

Thanks for taking the time to research this. It seems to me that 2H is off damage wise so I hope answers can be found soon.

[kanras]

Most of the mobs above 50 were using default AC values that were too high. These have been reduced somewhat, pending update.

[Tulvinous]

Is there a projected date for the next patch, for these pending updates?

Thanks.

[Aadill]

Reposting for correct location!

Kanras, was that patch in reference to this patch from live?

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000419.html

TWO HANDED WEAPONS UPGRADED, APRIL 19, 2000

As part of the emergency update completed last night, a change was implemented that increases the amount of damage done by someone wielding a 2 handed weapon.

This change was made due to a statistical imbalance in the way that damage is calculated at the mid-to-upper levels. A person wielding a one-handed weapon of a given ratio was able to do more damage than when wielding a two-handed weapon of the same ratio.

We would like to stress that no change has been made to the amount of damage done by people wielding one-handed weapons. The net result of this change is that people choosing to wield two-handed weapons will now do more damage than they did before.

[kanras]

Sep. 2000:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010721115457/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=123&t=000082&p=

It used to not be this way. It used to be that all weapons got the (Level - 25)/3 bonus, even the two-handers. Which made fast 1-handers unquestionably superior in all respects to any 2-handed weapon in the game at high levels. It was only after lots of posts to the official Everquest message boards that we finally managed to get it through Verant's head that their combat engine was a little h0rked. After that, they changed the bonus for 2-handers and they started making 2-handed weapons with DMG/DLY ratios that kept them competitive with 1-handers.

I'm pretty sure that April 2000 patch made it so that the damage bonuses weren't identical for 1h/2h

[Aadill]

Cool, so that was the patch you implemented :)

On my ranger I've noticed reasonable 2hand damage on non 50+ mobs so maybe the AC change you implemented on 50+ mobs will help 2hand weapon users feel like they are doing more overall damage.

[Torven]

Wait, wasn't Kunark released AFTER that patch?

[Zeelot]

Here's a brief description of how PC damage works for those interested. There's a ton of in depth parses and other resources at evilgamer.net regarding both PC damage and NPC damage, which pretty accurately describe the formulas behind it.

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5736

PC base damage is calculated about the same way as NPC, but our DB isn't static, it's a variable. a simple, unmodified PC damage formula is thus:
(weapon damage/10*(1-20)*(1.0-3.55)) + DB = how much you hit for. the 1-3.55 is is apparently the PC equivalent of DB, and then our DI is modified by weapon damage.

the 3.55 varies with level and class

[kanras]

Round two of hit distribution is done, pending update. The distribution of hits that are not min/max/magic will more closely follow the general curvature seen in any large parse.

[Poeskas]

So will 2HS still suck after the patch? I'm slow.