ST Post Kerafym Changes

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

I am going to shameless plug Croco's notes from the Essence Lens post.

This seems to imply mobs should not flurry, or see sneak hide or invis, primal drop chance off prog/motg/arbiter should be even among wep types.

Awesome, thanks Nilbog!

I'm curious if you noticed this post in the wayback that Dolalin posted earlier in this thread. It's a few posts after the guy who completed the first essence lens and he mentions that ST is "a plush, cushy place to go" and that the Ancient Sentries no longer flurry.

https://i.imgur.com/owR8XQn.png

A few posts further down another person posts the following:



Suggesting that at the very least 1 hand primals should be the same drop rate as their 2 hand counterparts. Currently it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Fitten goes on to state in a follow up post:



All these forum posts are circa September 2001. Seems like pretty solid evidence to update ST on Blue.

re: wayback link for reference
https://web.archive.org/web/20011030034205/http://www.drow.org/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

[Croco]

bump for visibility

[Croco]

bump for dev response

[Detoxx]

This is confirmed multiple times on that thread as well. Several people say the same thing.

[Brocode]

Not only confirms how they changed sleepers, but also confirms scales dropped BEFORE the quest was available

[Croco]

bump for dev response

[Croco]

nilbog, telin wru?

[Croco]

bump

[nilbog]

No need to bump bug threads unless you have more information, or a substantial amount of time has passed.

This could definitely use more research.

[Croco]

No need to bump bug threads unless you have more information, or a substantial amount of time has passed.

This could definitely use more research.

Have you reviewed all the posts in the thread from the archive I linked? It seems pretty clear that at the very least the trash in ST shouldn't be flurrying anymore.

[Dolalin]

I just finished crawling the Vault Network boards and there is a thread on ST as it was around November 2001.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040506104730/http://vnboards.ign.com/Terris-Thule/b5254/19085802/p9/

http://web.archive.org/web/20040620021900/http://vnboards.ign.com/Terris-Thule/b5254/19085802/p10


Date Posted: 11/20/01 8:10am

For the short bus rider that mentioned CTV being in Sleeper's yesterday, read the posts from The-King and substitute your name.

But for the rest of those curious, we were there to see for ourselves how the zone changed. With all the contradictory posts on various boards regarding what does drop, what doesn't, how the mobs are changed, etc, we wanted to see for ourselves so we could at least talk from experience about the issue. And you will probably see us back there again to see if what we saw the first time was a fluke, or the norm.

That said, we cleared all the Sentries from the zone-in to the area around the MToG and the Prog, including all the spawns inside the Prog room (basically everything from zone-in to the doors leading to the Library). We then COH'd down and took out the FA. For the effort:

MToG = 1 Primal Warsword
Prog = 1 Primal Brawlstick
FA = 1 Primal Hammer

I think there was also 1 Priceless drop from a sentry, but wasn't uncommon before the release.

As for the fights, from what I saw, the Golems are unchanged. MToG was still MR, and the FA fight seemed to take about as long is it did before. He *might* have had a few less HP, but overall I would say the encounter is basically the same.

Draxt:

You used an aweful lot of words to completely miss the point of why people would consider it a selfish act. Its not always about loot, yet you keep focusing on that aspect. Thats not the reason a lot of people are disappointed.

The real issue is that you have deprived other guilds and players a chance to experience an exciting aspect of the game, and you didn't have to.

No one on our server, outside of some of your members, and some of ours, will ever get to shout to the zone and cheer over their guildsay as they kill the first 3 warders for the first. They won't have that sense of excitment and accomplishment. And don't come back with how easy you think the encounters are now unless not a single person in your guild expressed any excitement when the first warder fell for the first time for you. I don't care how easy we think it is, it was still something other guilds on the server were looking forward to doing on their own some day.

Whats ironic is that Kiny hits the nail on the head talking about Infinity Watch's excitement over killing Woushi for the first time, being happy for them and remembering the first time Valon killed her and what a fun time that was. Here you have a member expressing joy at seeing friends reach a goal they have been working for. That kind of sentiment is in direct contradiction to the arguments made by Valon members as to why they should release the sleeper not more than 2 posts later. Valon has removed that "step" from the ladder for any other guild on the server. And again, you didn't have to.

You still could have gotten the notch on your bedpost by killing Venti and knowing that you *could* have released the Sleeper, but not done it. And thats the question you keep dancing around, but can't answer. Why would Valon take it upon themselves to make this server wide decision, knowing that that action removed an aspect of the game without replacing an equal experience? Are you saying that the satisfaction of taking down a very difficult target wasn't enough?

And please, comments about how it would have cheapened the experience by not releasing the Sleeper is a very thin veil. You sure you want to hide behind that? Was it any less exciting killing Cazic Thule, or Yelinak, or Vyemm for the first time knowing that it respawn the next week? I hope not.

And no, CTV had no intention of releasing the Sleeper. There was a lot of talk about attempting the 4th Warder, but only on the condition that another Warder was up.

[Dolalin]

Contextual search on my indexer is starting to pay off.

Here's an Everlore message boards thread from Jan 2002 about how ST changes after Sleeper is awoken.

(Warning: turn off site javascript for web.archive.org to avoid the Everlore redirect)


posted 1/22/2002 10:37:49 PM

It's hardly an unfortunate decision...at least not for the killing guild. Problem is other guild's that are just working on ST keys or prospective ST key guilds that don't get to open the treasure chests that the 4 warders were (no more SoDs, primal is way more rare, etc etc).
Got bad news for you, Kwivr - sleeper was awoken on rodcet a month or so ago.

The whole argument whether to kill the 4th warder is a result of poor planning by Verant. People are punished by killing Ventani. No more warders (nothing to ward, heh) = lots of items no longer drop or drop much more rarely (sods come to mind...yummy droppable 1hb).

The "good" thing about the 4th warder being killed is that ST becomes easier to raid - no mobs see invis, the 3 named golems drop primal (although you can still go through motg, prog, and final arb and get 0 drops)...and that's it.

Who the hell wants to go through and kill the golems/named and come away with a priceless lance or a primal bow? More and more guilds have become keen on killing zlandicar (sont, lend, klandicar, too - hell, even some yelinak), meaning more ST keys, and more guilds wanting to raid a zone with a 48 hour repop for getting what may be 0 decent drops.

And those prismatic scales are a joke.

If you're too lazy to read that, I'll sum it up:

Verant: Congrats guys on killing Ventani. No more lewt for joo!

-edit- and nowadays, since luclin's release, Sleepers is a rather easy zone to raid. You can go through the named with 2 good groups (as few as 7 I've heard). No ae, just lots of melee - and they're slowable...

Message edited by: ektar (1/22/2002 10:37:49 PM)



posted 1/23/2002 9:12:21 PM

ST summary:
Before the sleeper is set free, there are regular golems which can drop priceless, 3 named golems which can drop priceless (I'm pretty sure that's right), and 4 warders which drop primal (among other items).

The warders will respawn until all 4 are dead at the same time, at which point the sleeper is set free. Once he's free, there's no reason for anyone to guard him, and therefore the warders never respawn.

However, those 3 named golems (master of the guard, the proginator (or whatever), and the final arbitor) have a rare chance of dropping primal. The regular golems continue to drop priceless.

The regular golems are doable with one group (provided you have a warrior, cleric, and shaman), while the 3 named are doable with two groups.

With the exception of Ventani, ST does not require a large raid force. Vindicator is much harder than the 3 named, and he's a relatively low level velious raid encounter.



posted 1/24/2002 7:19:39 AM

There are, or were, 4 Warders protecting the Sleeper. You could kill any 3 of the Warders and they would respawn 7 days later, or with the next patch, whichever was first. If all 4 were ever dead at the same time, The Sleeper spawns and the Warders are gone forever.

The Golems can drop Primal without the Sleeper awakened. Its not very common, but we got a few Primal 2H handers and few 1H handers from Proj and FA before Sleeper was freed. The only change to the named Golems after the Sleeper is that they can no longer See Invis, their spawn time is decreased from several days to 2 days, and Prismatic Dragonscales are added to the drop tables.

Priceless weapons are on the drop tables of the normal Sentries and Gargs, pre and post Sleeper.

Hsraga (Yelinak's mate) was killed by the Giants, not the Sleeper. King Tormax's throne is made from her skull, and one of his more common drops is a dagger made from one of her Horns. Its also the reason the Giantbane spell is named Hsraga.

Its also been speculated that the Sleeper is the child of Yelinak and Hsraga, which makes a lot of sense in terms of lore in the game.

And the first 3 Warders were considerably easier than 4 of the 5 dragons you could kill for keys to even get to them. We had 18 the first time we killed those 3. We could kill Zlandicar with 18, but there is no way we could kill Klandicar, Sontalak, Lendi or Yelinak with only 18.... well, maybe Lendi now with NToV and AA Skills.. might have to try that.



http://web.archive.org/web/20050315075939/http://www.everlore.com:80/MB_SHOW.asp?FID=68&FN=Ranger&SID=7&SN=EverQuest&TID=1321309&TN=The+mother+of+all+Rawrs%21&CAT=Classes&SURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eeverlore%2Ecom&PL=3

[Croco]

bump for dev response

[Croco]

please make ST more classic

[Croco]

bump for dev response, please put ST in the correct state

[nilbog]

No need to bump bug threads unless you have more information, or a substantial amount of time has passed.

[Croco]

Both of those things is the case here. The 18th was almost 2 weeks ago and more research was posted to go along with the already clear research regarding the unclassic state of the trash mobs in ST and the much lower drop rate of 1h primals compared to their 2h counterparts.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3230693&postcount=11

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3230693&postcount=12

[Dolalin]

Indexer has gotten further, about 33% done the EQ Archives.

I found the following thread about Post-Sleeper ST from the EQCleric forums:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040928132741/eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10915.html

On rarity:


Haxx
11-12-2001, 09:40 PM

Primal off the 3 golems only. We've gotten I think 1 scale, cleared 10+ times, from eh.. a named

Each primal seems to be about the same in rarity with the exception of spears, those still are rare as hell for us. Rest bout the same.

Reg golems - spells and priceless only.


Also on rarity, but what might this 'HUGE change' be? Lack of see invis I'm guessing?


Alendora
11-13-2001, 07:57 AM

Actually there is one HUGE change from the prior Sleepers Tomb, but I don't want to ruin all the fun for everyone by saying what that is. =) (change to golems and named golems)

Three clearings of the new ST:

Axe Spear Spear
Axe Axe Lance
Axe Lance


As an aside, here's Afterlife's page with the first screenshots of the Sleeper awakening:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030618225949/http://www.afterlifeguild.org/template.cgi?page=kerafyrm

[Croco]

There's more than enough evidence here to change ST.

Make ST (more) classic please!

[Chapelle]

i've seen 3 earth staves drop since the last primal velium spear. also several primal velium warswords and countless 2h primal weapons. is it really just incredibly bad RNG or can the devs verify that the 1hp (and 1h drop rate in general) is correct?

[ricquire]

^

[Croco]

there is more than enough evidence to fix ST trash and primal drop rates, please update ST, it's been long enough

[Chapelle]

But seriously, does the Primal Velium Spear actually drop? There have been countless 1h weapons, earth staves, since the last 1hp drop in October 2020. Is this bugged?

[Croco]

please fix st trash and primal weapon drop rates, ST is not classic

[Nirgon]

The beta testing continues, kudos to blue

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

bump

[Croco]

fix ST

[Yinein]

Keep ST drops rare, don't change ST. Thanks

[Croco]

Keep ST drops rare, don't change ST. Thanks

Please try and contain your trolling to R&F. Everything presented in this thread is classic and we're advocating for ST to be in it's correct post sleeper form.

[Croco]

bump, please make ST classic

[Ripqozko]

its fine

[Croco]

its fine

Our version is not timeline accurate. There are major differences that need to be fixed. You wouldn't know because you didn't raid ST on live, only the bastardized version on this ancient elf sim.

[Ripqozko]

It's good

[Croco]

It's good

Still not accurate or classic. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

It's fine

[Croco]

It's fine

Your opinion is irrelevant.

[branamil]

Hopefully they will fix this by 2025 to be more classic. But meanwhile rooted dragons

[Ripqozko]

It's good

[Croco]

It's good

good does not = classic, hope this helps

[Croco]

No need to bump bug threads unless you have more information, or a substantial amount of time has passed.

This could definitely use more research.

Please stop ducking this obvious classic change with documented in era evidence. Please fix ST on blue.

[Croco]

Please fix ST.

https://i.imgur.com/4wexHSq.png

https://i.imgur.com/HE9VMxp.png

https://i.imgur.com/iPZoUlJ.png

taken from:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020505124226/http://www.drow.org:80/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

[Hideousclaw]

Please fix ST.

https://i.imgur.com/4wexHSq.png

https://i.imgur.com/HE9VMxp.png

https://i.imgur.com/iPZoUlJ.png

taken from:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020505124226/http://www.drow.org:80/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

Seeeeems pretty solid evidence in here to warrant a looking at and touching up

[Tunabros]

spamming nilbog isn't gonna make ST classic

[Croco]

Please fix ST.

https://i.imgur.com/4wexHSq.png

https://i.imgur.com/HE9VMxp.png

https://i.imgur.com/iPZoUlJ.png

taken from:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020505124226/http://www.drow.org:80/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

[Ripqozko]

Please dont keep bumping unless you have new information to provide thank you

[Croco]

Please dont keep bumping unless you have new information to provide thank you

I appreciate the advice, thanks.

[Bellringer]

Bumping for visibility. Melee deserve some love!

[galach]

Please keep new posts to additional research and please don't bump it without meaningful discussion. Thank you.

[illuminary3]

the trivial evidence required to change some things, then the mountain of evidence brushed aside for others.....there is 0 rhyme or reason to what the devs decide is classic and what isn't somedays

[Croco]

the trivial evidence required to change some things, then the mountain of evidence brushed aside for others.....there is 0 rhyme or reason to what the devs decide is classic and what isn't somedays

Exactly. Please fix ST.

[Croco]

https://i.imgur.com/pmLLCMP.png

These are all the primal drops in the history of Riot minus a small number of additional 2hs/p that have either rotted or been given away to other guilds because no one wanted them. I understand that 187 drops is not a massive sample size but it is enough to clearly see that something is wrong. These drop rates are NOT classic. Every weapon should have an equal chance to drop and that is very obviously not the case at the moment. Please fix these unclassic drop rates and make the other classic changes that the evidence in this thread clearly shows.

Thanks.

[Sarodare]

Kind of sad how little evidence was posted about quillmane or charming vendors and they got changed... but all the evidence you've posted here is "not enough" lol. Servers only as classic as they want it to be.

[Croco]

Kind of sad how little evidence was posted about quillmane or charming vendors and they got changed... but all the evidence you've posted here is "not enough" lol. Servers only as classic as they want it to be.

If it is somehow a nerf to players they will get it done last tuesday. If it helps players in some way they'll add it to a list of things to look at occasionally and never actually do anything about even if it's classic. Nilbog is loathe to actually do anything that benefits the playerbase.

[nilbog]

If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.

[Croco]

If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.

A very small acknowledgment or indication it was on said short list would've gone a long way. This thread went over a year trying to get that from you and would've taken you about 1 minute to fire off a message.

Thanks for the update.

[Skarne]

A very small acknowledgment or indication it was on said short list would've gone a long way. This thread went over a year trying to get that from you and would've taken you about 1 minute to fire off a message.

Thanks for the update.

you should take a step back from this.

[Hideousclaw]

you should take a step back from this.

[Ripqozko]

you should take a step back from this.

[karadin]

If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.

Croco is a forum turd and has trouble communicating without being petulant. I only mention this because I don't want his inability to communicate to impact other people who are interesting in seeing changes as well. Vanquish is also happy to provide drop rate information if it helps in any way. It would be nice to make Sleeper's golems more appealing like they were in classic era.

[karadin]

For Vanquish:

https://i.imgur.com/NmYiYrg.png

39% of golems had some sort of primal on them out of our 238 kills. I can't personally find any in-era evidence that the drop rate is less than 100%, but I'm sure somebody has if that is what P99 has been rolling with for so long. I'm trying to get in touch with some Velious era guilds to see if they might have information on that stored somewhere.

[Dolalin]

I've been going through the Enlightened Dark guild news page and cataloging all their drops.

I'm only up to May 2001 in parsing the drops so this will take some time but their page is very comprehensive and they almost always listed every drop.

Examples:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602175906fw_/http://www.enlighteneddark.org/News.html?month=2

Once there are some hard numbers then objective decisions can be made.

[Gorbok]

I've been going through the Enlightened Dark guild news page and cataloging all their drops.

I'm only up to May 2001 in parsing the drops so this will take some time but their page is very comprehensive and they almost always listed every drop.

Examples:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602175906fw_/http://www.enlighteneddark.org/News.html?month=2

Once there are some hard numbers then objective decisions can be made.

Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.

[Croco]

Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.

If you read through the forum posts that are linked earlier in this thread though there's a guild saying they saw far more 1 hand primals than they ever did from the golems when the sleeper was still sleeping.

[eisley]

Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.

I was in Enlightened Dark and indeed, we stopped doing ST entirely after waking the sleeper. It was relegated to off-hours pickup raids. I remember trying to tank MotG on Themy. It did not go well.

That said, I did clear ST quite a bit after the changes, and it was indeed very easy. I had no issue tanking the trash on a ranger. We'd have like 6-12 people typically. I never noticed a disparity in 1h vs 2h to be honest, but I didn't pay very close attention.

(Also, I loaned Nazlug like a million plat worth of stuff on p99 a few years ago and he disappeared one day :[ )

[azxten]

If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.

With all due respect sire, it is.. most unpleasant.. to be told not to bump a thread unless more information is available or a significant time has passed and then multiple years pass with no additional response.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395711

As I've mentioned creating a new staff member position like "Lorekeeper" who filters bug reports and updates a visible status would be exceptionally helpful for those who want to contribute research and more on this forum.

This group of people can be responsible for filtering out garbage, bringing you the bug reports that are worth review, and then updating their status based on your feedback.

Potential status:

1. Open, no one has reviewed it.
2. Lorekeeper has reviewed it, garbage, not a bug, duplicate, previously discussed, etc.
2. Lorekeeper has reviewed it, needs more research.
3. Nilbog has reviewed it, needs more research.
4. Nilbog has accepted the bug as legitimate and it is part of the backlog to fix.
5. Fixed.

There seems to be a lot of effort here being wasted when people keep researching things that are on the "short list" already or get disgruntled when they can't get any response about their efforts so they just stop contributing.

I would reverse engineer the client to figure out the classic Charm code but I feel it's wasted effort until channeling gets fixed because it seems likely that such an effort might never materialize into any changes. Also what if you already have the classic Charm code figured out on your short list and I don't know? That would be a lot of wasted effort on my part.

Without adequate communication on posts and visibility into this "short list" of confirmed issues and the work needing to be done on them we have a very disjointed volunteer contribution process that leaves a lot of people feeling rejected. The indication provided here by staff is that volunteer efforts are encouraged and desired but you have to balance this with the reality of the experience of trying to contribute which gives the opposite impression that the staff would rather we didn't bother them or that we can "try" to contribute and the staff "may" bother to look at something. This disconnect is the source of a lot of those feelings.

It would be better if the messaging was more clear up front that you can't expect any kind of response or follow up but if you want to post go ahead OR if the staff would implement better management of the issues so that each contributor felt their efforts were being acknowledged.

I would again encourage you to read this sticky, "Please read before posting" on the bug forum.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

While a lot of you have been contributing a lot of bugs recently, which is awesome, we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site is the most helpful thing you can do, other than pointing our attention to the bug itself. It helps us make the change with confidence that we're doing the right thing.

With the new round of beta testing, this is highly relevant.

Please make sure to include all the information you can about an issue.

I'm wasting a lot of time reading posts with no research or links.

What is the bar of evidence approximately and when has it been met? We don't know and almost never do you hear that it has been met. Things go from "needs more research" to "shut up I'm working on it" or "fixed in next patch" which creates a tension and negativity when you're told to dig up more research when you already have a ton of research only to later find out that some amount of research in between there wasn't needed. This is the "congressional hearing" outcome Uthgaard refers to where people just argue endlessly in bug threads about that bar and if it has been met or not. Also note the trolling in this thread of the people actually contributing research and then over the course of years you do come back and post about negative rhetoric. Threads devolve into this because of the way the forum operates. Someone who contributes research, gets told to do more research with no bar, gets told not to bump unless "significant time has passed" only to see things idle for years, gets trolled the whole time during this, is naturally going to end up in a pretty frustrated and negative place.

If you're still wasting time reading posts with inadequate research or links, and this thread must be another example since you commented it needs more research, then consider the Lorekeeper idea I mentioned above. Volunteers like Dolalin or others could filter these bug reports so you don't waste your time and can spend your time responding and reviewing the things that probably should get a review/response because people put in the effort to contribute something worthwhile. It would likely be a lot easier for you and better for volunteers if there was a go between who brought you a list of a dozen threads that were solid and you could ignore the rest and those people who made those dozen threads actually get a response and follow up in a timely matter about if they should keep researching or can consider the matter tracked and "done" on their part.

One final note on this particular change is you mention it is more difficult than others to implement. Is it possible the work could be broken down into sub tasks and into two groups where one is possible to do with the EQEmu code and the other requires access to P99 source? This would allow you to say, "Ok this is an acknowledged bug, the research is good, we (staff) have some changes we need to make but in the mean time someone should be able to adjust X, Y, and Z using EQEmu open source code please contribute those changes here if you want this to get done sooner." This would also require the staff inform people though if they decide to do X, Y, and Z themselves to avoid that duplicated effort. That could also be a matter of doing all the private source work first and then dropping a note, "We completed our changes and are working on X, Y, and Z ourselves now."

[azxten]

Oh and a separate note about the trolling.

Trolling in the bug report forum should probably warrant an immediate suspension/ban. Like I said, it upsets contributors, who in turn get frustrated and post things that upset the staff, and so on. Strict rules about posts here would probably also help things. For example, maybe no one here should even be questioning if proof is sufficient or not except staff.

All posts and comments here should require research or they should be deleted. I doubt there is any value in the "please fix this!" or "Yes, this would be awesome!" or "I don't remember it being like that on live" and so on comments. Every single comment here should have research either confirming or denying a specific bug.

If the staff needs feedback on which bugs players want fixed the most there would be more effective means to get that information than random people commenting about how much a certain bug bothers them or they wish it would be fixed.

I do all of these things I'm complaining about by the way because it's the way things are here. I post things I think were bugs with zero research and let others tell me I'm wrong and so on. It's like why not? That's the easiest way to vet a bug initially, start a discussion and see what others contribute. That kind of thing is probably better suited to the general forums though if people want to just gather feedback, memories, and so on. It's still a valuable function though just not so useful cluttering up these forums.

Lorekeeper staff member with forum mod permissions over the bug forums and an established process for updating status and communicating between volunteers/staff seems like a huge win in my opinion.

[karadin]

If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.

Nilbog, any chance you'd be willing to humor us and give some insight on what makes something like this complicated? I figured it may have something to do with wanting to dynamically change the loot tables based on an event (sleeper awakening) rather than patching it in manually when that event occurs.

Thank you for continuing to maintain this project.

[nilbog]

Nilbog, any chance you'd be willing to humor us and give some insight on what makes something like this complicated? I figured it may have something to do with wanting to dynamically change the loot tables based on an event (sleeper awakening) rather than patching it in manually when that event occurs.


Because there are multiple states of the zone, these changes will require duplicate copies of the npcs created just to satisfy the change requirements. After the copies are made, then they need the proposed adjustments, then they need to have duplicated spawngroups, spawnentries, rules, lootdrops, lootdrop entries, loottables, loottable entries etc associated with them. Then that needs to be tested.

Looked into this a bit to get a scope of changes. Will start with the easiest* tasks first before getting into difficulty changes of npcs and loot table % adjustments.

ancient sentries no longer flurryThis seems easy enough.

No mob in ST sees invis now. Before, they all saw invis.If this should be the case, it means pre sleeper awakening npcs will be harder in the future. Currently, the following npcs do not see invis:

a newly created sentry
an aged caretaker
a tireless servitor

If I understand this correctly, those ^ should see invis prior to sleeper awakening. After sleeper wakes, nothing in the zone should see invis?

PrimalsResearch posts in this thread indicate named golems *can* drop primals prior to sleeper waking, but it was not guaranteed. And they shouldn't be guaranteed after sleeper wakes, either. Quite a nerf.

Also, I noticed newly created sentries, and tireless servitors have no loottable. Is this correct?

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

I think the tl;dr is (1) post awakening Sleeper's Tomb mobs should be easier (less flurry, no see invis and sneak/hide); (2)Prog/MOTG/FA should drop Primal weapons more often than current; and (3)primal drop rate should be more even across weapon types.

Some citations from prior posts /external sources -

https://web.archive.org/web/20011030034205/http://www.drow.org/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

September 22, 2001 07:38 PM
For example:

- Ancient sentries no longer flurry. They are trivial to kill.
- MotG is now easily slowable/cripple/etc. Before it was quite an accomplishment for 10 to 11 people to kill the MotG, now it can be killed with as few as 4 or 5 people.
- Prog is similar to MotG as far as the spell resistances. It used to require effort, now it is trivial.
- No mob in ST sees invis now. Before, they all saw invis.

September 24, 2001 09:45 AM
Easier or not, i havent looted anything but 1 prmial 1hs, 2 primal axe and 1 primal 2hand piercing in 4 month of ST. In 1 months since Kerafrym awaken and ST been fixed, we looted more Primal 1hb and 1h piercing than we ever loot of warder. nuff said.

September 24, 2001 01:15 PM

Regardless, every mob in ST is only a shadow of what they were before Kerafrym was released. The fact that they don't see invis now makes CR trivial which wasn't in the past. The drop rates are like 4X what they once were. Killing everything down to the Warders once netted about 1 primal weapon and 2 priceless. Now that can be gotten just from killing the sentries and MotG. We cleaned ST out (before Kerafyrm release) except for the Warders a few times and got nothing at all. Basically ST is about 1/3 the difficulty as before (if not less) and drops at least 3X the rate as before (sans Warders, of course). (MUCH) Less risk and more reward.

A few posts from Croco/others regarding current drop % showing huge disparity and lack of 1hs/1hb/1hp in that order I believe

A number of quality posts from Dolalin as always.

[nilbog]

(2)Prog/MOTG/FA should drop Primal weapons more often than current;

I am confused about this. Right now, on p99, the named golems have a 100% chance of dropping a primal weapon, each time, pre sleeper waking. They have a 50% chance post sleeper waking.

According to the research posted in this thread, they should not drop primal at 100%, pre or post sleeper.

This suggests 20%.
But to Fitten, just because the zone is easier doesn't mean we, as the guild just starting to enter it, want it that way. Sure, its easier to get primal from motg/prog now..but I for one would way rather have it back the way it was before. No warders will cut down primal a ton, since golems seem to drop primal bout 1/5 kills.
https://web.archive.org/web/20011030034205/http://www.drow.org/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292
This suggests 100%.
That said, we cleared all the Sentries from the zone-in to the area around the MToG and the Prog, including all the spawns inside the Prog room (basically everything from zone-in to the doors leading to the Library). We then COH'd down and took out the FA. For the effort:

MToG = 1 Primal Warsword
Prog = 1 Primal Brawlstick
FA = 1 Primal HammerNo numbers, but possible 0% per raid, so <100%.
The "good" thing about the 4th warder being killed is that ST becomes easier to raid - no mobs see invis, the 3 named golems drop primal (although you can still go through motg, prog, and final arb and get 0 drops)...and that's it.Rare chance? <100%
However, those 3 named golems (master of the guard, the proginator (or whatever), and the final arbitor) have a rare chance of dropping primal. The regular golems continue to drop priceless.Not very common. <100%.
The Golems can drop Primal without the Sleeper awakened. Its not very common, but we got a few Primal 2H handers and few 1H handers from Proj and FA before Sleeper was freed. The only change to the named Golems after the Sleeper is that they can no longer See Invis, their spawn time is decreased from several days to 2 days, and Prismatic Dragonscales are added to the drop tables.Primal weapon %s of lootdrop:
(3)primal drop rate should be more even across weapon types.

Some citations from prior posts /external sources -

https://web.archive.org/web/20011030034205/http://www.drow.org/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000292

A few posts from Croco/others regarding current drop % showing huge disparity and lack of 1hs/1hb/1hp in that order I believe

A number of quality posts from Dolalin as always.

Adjusting the % of primal drops on the lootdrop itself is a next step. The weapons likely need to have equal chances of dropping post-Sleeper.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

I am confused about this. Right now, on p99, the named golems have a 100% chance of dropping a primal weapon, each time, pre sleeper waking. They have a 50% chance post sleeper waking.

Knowing the actual percent from this statement changes my belief (when comparing to the historical posts) that the drop rate would need adjusting. Based on personal experience post sleeper I would of guessed 20-30% at most. RNG is RNG.

I appreciate your review and dialog with us concerning this.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

They have a 50% chance post sleeper waking.

Does this mean there is a flat 50% chance to have an item, then it determines what item based of weight? or are you saying it might be along these lines below..

50% nothing
8% 2hp
8% 2hs sword
8% 2hs axe
8% 2hb
5% 1hs
5% 1hp
5% 1hb
3% bow

I ask this because a number of Chardok 2.0 named were/are in a state of "bugged" where they were weighted to have a guaranteed drop 100% of the time, but due to modification of items were left in a state where the possible drop pool only added up to 90%, resulting in 10% of the time the mob having 0 items.

[nilbog]

Does this mean there is a flat 50% chance to have an item, then it determines what item based of weight?

A 50% chance roll is made. If successful, a primal is dropped from a lootdrop entry in which the individual chances add up to 100%.

I ask this because a number of Chardok 2.0 named were/are in a state of "bugged" where they were weighted to have a guaranteed drop 100% of the time, but due to modification of items were left in a state where the possible drop pool only added up to 90%, resulting in 10% of the time the mob having 0 items.Is there a bug report about this?

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

PM sent regarding Cdok

[Croco]

Does this mean there is a flat 50% chance to have an item, then it determines what item based of weight? or are you saying it might be along these lines below..

50% nothing
8% 2hp
8% 2hs sword
8% 2hs axe
8% 2hb
5% 1hs
5% 1hp
5% 1hb
3% bow

I ask this because a number of Chardok 2.0 named were/are in a state of "bugged" where they were weighted to have a guaranteed drop 100% of the time, but due to modification of items were left in a state where the possible drop pool only added up to 90%, resulting in 10% of the time the mob having 0 items.

2h primals should not have a higher chance to drop. All primals, 1h and 2h should have the exact same chance.

[catalystguild]

2h primals should not have a higher chance to drop. All primals, 1h and 2h should have the exact same chance.

I agree, maybe not exact same, but certainly not the way it is currently based on the archive posts. I was asking for clarification on the current behavior.

[Dolalin]

I compiled most of the Primal drops of Enlightened Dark into this sheet, they're all from warders though.

https://1drv.ms/x/s!Av68XbooqaptkheuhcdMuLV749_t

You should be able to get a good view on how common each individual primal weapon was in the pre-awakening Sleepers at least. More drops from more guilds would be ideal but I just don't have time anymore to do this stuff, too much going on at work...

[nilbog]

Will work on loot after the other issues are addressed.

ancient sentries no longer flurry Done.

After sleeper wakes, ancient sentries will no longer flurry or see invis.

Next up:
No mob in ST sees invis now. Before, they all saw invis.If this should be the case, it means pre sleeper awakening npcs will be harder in the future. Currently, the following npcs do not see invis:

a newly created sentry
an aged caretaker
a tireless servitor

If I understand this correctly, those ^ should see invis prior to sleeper awakening. After sleeper wakes, nothing in the zone should see invis?

[nilbog]

Next up:
If this should be the case, it means pre sleeper awakening npcs will be harder in the future. Currently, the following npcs do not see invis:

a newly created sentry
an aged caretaker
a tireless servitor

If I understand this correctly, those ^ should see invis prior to sleeper awakening. After sleeper wakes, nothing in the zone should see invis?

Fixed, pending update

All npcs see invis prior to sleeper awakening. After sleeper wakes, none see invis

[nilbog]

Pending update:

-Before sleeper wakes, decreased the chance of named golems dropping primal
-After sleeper wakes, primal drops have an equal chance on the lootdrop table