Riot kites then kills KT. Surprised no free Vulak after wiping on free attempt.

[NotCaros]

15060

No it was way different when your KT tagger literally ran from 4way back to throne room.

That was plausibly deniable. No reason to pause engage. Or even concede after the fact.

But some tov mobs come into camp with your own fraps showing assist on your own players…

And you still get a free uncontested shot at Vulak (sorry for your loss)

Dishearten and feeling sad? Obviously someone else’s fault.

[Hotel]

nerd

the assist on runyan's fraps go out after a new aggro shout message to be fair but we have no evidence to say that it was on klaz

seems like it would be a really simple thing to prove

are they like waiting on a gotcha? does no one have fraps of klaz like standing up and having the train come towards him?

regardless, they got an unrushed attempt in - tried some goofy ass shit - and wiped and died horribly

don't act like that train had any impact on your strategy and attempt to kill vulak

[Arvan]

nerd

the assist on runyan's fraps go out after a new aggro shout message to be fair but we have no evidence to say that it was on klaz

seems like it would be a really simple thing to prove

are they like waiting on a gotcha? does no one have fraps of klaz like standing up and having the train come towards him?

regardless, they got an unrushed attempt in - tried some goofy ass shit - and wiped and died horribly

don't act like that train had any impact on your strategy and attempt to kill vulak

Last time i read the rules training other guilds was against the raid rules wether or not it prevents an engage or not, am i right?

[Hotel]

Last time i read the rules training other guilds was against the raid rules wether or not it prevents an engage or not, am i right?

rules are unclear, gms rule on a whim, no one really knows anything

rooted dragons is a shit show and no one cares

sucks

[NotCaros]

Last time i read the rules training other guilds was against the raid rules wether or not it prevents an engage or not, am i right?

Wrong.

Every time y’all train someone: “your fault for being on the tracks!”

[myrddraal]

Wrong.

Every time y’all train someone: “your fault for being on the tracks!”

In doubles far away from their engage is hardly on the tracks. 4 way was also unagroed until Klaz stood up while still having agro on vulak guards, who then socialed and killed people sitting when he stood up, then he tried to gate and was murdered, then piercing roars went out for new agro messages on Vulak guards.

[Hotel]

In doubles far away from their engage is hardly on the tracks. 4 way was also unagroed until Klaz stood up while still having agro on vulak guards, who then socialed and killed people sitting when he stood up, then he tried to gate and was murdered, then piercing roars went out for new agro messages on Vulak guards.

im sorry that this train made it so your strategy sucked and you wiped on your free attempt

you were never killing vulak +6

sorry to break it to you

[Hotel]

Will go to petitions it's super obvious what happened. Wonder how much this is going to cost to have swept under the rug

what are you petitioning?

that you didnt get a free mob because your camp was trained during a period of time you weren't engaged on anything?

do you deny that you got an attempt?

do you think your strategy would have worked?

could that force have killed vulak +6, in your tells with runyan, you didn't seem to think so

but of course, all of that is irrelevant because we live in kabuki theatre land

gms refuse to give us rules or moderate

so it's just "lol petition" and hope the gms wake up on the right side of the bed

so stupid

[myrddraal]

im sorry that this train made it so your strategy sucked and you wiped on your free attempt

you were never killing vulak +6

sorry to break it to you

Sorry your player will probably be banned.

[Dman2701]

So you think it's ok to get trained as long as your not engaged on anything? Good to know

[Hotel]

Sorry your player will probably be banned.

your guild is dyeing bro

be careful with how you want to come off

[myrddraal]

your guild is dyeing bro

be careful with how you want to come off

I'd rather not raid at all than raid with Vanquish.

[xdrcfrx]

"lone actor"

[Hotel]

So you think it's ok to get trained as long as your not engaged on anything? Good to know

i think the other guild should let you get an engage or something like that

free mob for just existing? nah.

[Hotel]

I'd rather not raid at all than raid with Vanquish.

that will be the case soon, don't worry

well i guess there will always be sky slots for you

[myrddraal]

that will be the case soon, don't worry

well i guess there will always be sky slots for you

How long will your campaign against arthion last when all of your members realize that furoar is doing exactly what they accuse him of by taking all the best loot and that their DKP system is structured to pyramid it all to him lol

[Hotel]

How long will your campaign against arthion last when all of your members realize that furoar is doing exactly what they accuse him of by taking all the best loot and that their DKP system is structured to pyramid it all to him lol

unrooted dragons fixes this

look bro it is what it is, leadership don't like eachother, i think it's lame when the zerglings talk about it

we play the game because it's fun to us and it's better than other mmos we would be playing instead

no one is contesting my claim that you guys - under any circumstance - were killing that vulak?

[Arvan]

Wrong.

Every time y’all train someone: “your fault for being on the tracks!”

The guild im in (kittens) hasn't trained anyone. Maybe you are confused?

[Arvan]

I will agree the rules are unclear though. I don't think anyone actually knows including the gms lol.

[myrddraal]

unrooted dragons fixes this

look bro it is what it is, leadership don't like eachother, i think it's lame when the zerglings talk about it

we play the game because it's fun to us and it's better than other mmos we would be playing instead

no one is contesting my claim that you guys - under any circumstance - were killing that vulak?

Unrooted dragons wouldnt fix it. Kael mobs arent rooted and look at their pathing. Maybe we should root statue, KT and Dain too. Realistically they should all have a citywide alarm that brings all the guards to them too. But you would just find a way to delink them like you did with Tunare.

[Hotel]

I will agree the rules are unclear though. I don't think anyone actually knows including the gms lol.

now we just need to agree that we need the gms to give us rules and we are getting somewhere

[myrddraal]

now we just need to agree that we need the gms to give us rules and we are getting somewhere

training is against the rules, we know that one for sure. Why didn't Klaz just /q? Literally would have been a non issue and its pretty standard for FD classes with lingering agro.

[Hotel]

training is against the rules, we know that one for sure. Why didn't Klaz just /q? Literally would have been a non issue and its pretty standard for FD classes with lingering agro.

why did he run up twins lol, unfortunately we can't get inside his brain

you weren't engaged on anything and got a free attempt, what do you think should have happened instead when you were trained?

[myrddraal]

why did he run up twins lol, unfortunately we can't get inside his brain

you weren't engaged on anything and got a free attempt, what do you think should have happened instead when you were trained?

Another good question. Sure does make it seem intentional. If Vanquish doesn't spank him I'm sure the GMs will. Being engaged on anything should have zero impact on a train that wipes out 2/3 your people, it wastes everyone's time and we could have engaged and potentially gotten a 2nd engage chance if we wiped like we did. One or two things going differently and it would have worked, but c'est la vie. Another good question is if it does cost you 2x vulaks (which is silly with bag limits, the punishments should be 3 or 4 imo to give it real teeth and no concede 2 get the third for free for purposefully doing wrong) is will Vanquish punish said player and run them off the server like what happened to Lavitz?

[Hotel]

Another good question. Sure does make it seem intentional. If Vanquish doesn't spank him I'm sure the GMs will. Being engaged on anything should have zero impact on a train that wipes out 2/3 your people, it wastes everyone's time and we could have engaged and potentially gotten a 2nd engage chance if we wiped like we did. One or two things going differently and it would have worked, but c'est la vie. Another good question is if it does cost you 2x vulaks (which is silly with bag limits, the punishments should be 3 or 4 imo to give it real teeth and no concede 2 get the third for free for purposefully doing wrong) is will Vanquish punish said player and run them off the server like what happened to Lavitz?

this must be written by someone who practices fteing statue, brags abour their run times, and then races on a warrior on live :confused:

you're just stupid and fail to grapple with reasonable issues

[myrddraal]

this must be written by someone who practices fteing statue, brags abour their run times, and then races on a warrior on live :confused:

you're just stupid and fail to grapple with reasonable issues

Pretty big room. Druids dont have bind sight for pretarget either but you lose to Laughingoor any time he wants to race lol

[Hideousclaw]

Will go to petitions it's super obvious what happened. Wonder how much this is going to cost to have swept under the rug

Are you implying RMT for petition resolutions?

L
O
L

[Dman2701]

I love how you keep trying to justify training people. The mental gymnastics you people do is astonishing.

[myrddraal]

I love how you keep trying to justify training people. The mental gymnastics you people do is astonishing.

my favorite one was the christmas aary hallway train. There are just so many to pick from though.

[Hotel]

I love how you keep trying to justify training people. The mental gymnastics you people do is astonishing.


you weren't engaged on anything and got a free attempt, what do you think should have happened instead when you were trained?

[Samoht]

In doubles far away from their engage is hardly on the tracks. 4 way was also unagroed until Klaz stood up while still having agro on vulak guards, who then socialed and killed people sitting when he stood up, then he tried to gate and was murdered, then piercing roars went out for new agro messages on Vulak guards.

I've watched the wipe from all three angles provided in the UN and none of them seem to support this claim.

Does anybody actually have any fraps that even includes Klaz, much less Klaz training anybody?

[Hideousclaw]

I've watched the wipe from all three angles provided in the UN and none of them seem to support this claim.

Does anybody actually have any fraps that even includes Klaz, much less Klaz training anybody?

Likely not. They're just gonna throw in a petition so that we get double banned and then they can finally fulfill their promise to kittens that they will get loot.

[karadin]

I love how you keep trying to justify training people. The mental gymnastics you people do is astonishing.

Kickenit I really don’t see anyone justifying a train. If Klaz trained you then that sucks. The right thing to do since we did not wipe an active engage is to give you an unfettered attempt at the mob, which is exactly what happened. All situations of this nature should be handled like that and we would all be better off. We were trained by Riot on Eashan last week and we played on. We made our attempt and failed miserably, Riot came in and had a textbook kill.

[karadin]

Forgot to add to the above: the unfettered attempt was out of an abundance of caution while we reviewed the issue.

[Posiden]

You keep saying, "you got a free attempt" while ignoring the obvious. There would have been a free attempt regardless. You wiped. Once you wiped a free attempt was guaranteed. You pretending that you did some favor, or made some concession is pretty disingenuous at best. That'd be kind of like stealing $5 from someone, getting caught, then you giving the $5 back and claiming that was your punishment.

[karadin]

You keep saying, "you got a free attempt" while ignoring the obvious. There would have been a free attempt regardless. You wiped. Once you wiped a free attempt was guaranteed. You pretending that you did some favor, or made some concession is pretty disingenuous at best. That'd be kind of like stealing $5 from someone, getting caught, then you giving the $5 back and claiming that was your punishment.

The point made here is that Vanquish did not use Kriot’s setback as an excuse to leapfrog you with another attempt of our own. The situation played out exactly as it should have. V wiped, R wiped, V killed. The raid concern brought up did not change the course of the evening.

[Hotel]

You keep saying, "you got a free attempt" while ignoring the obvious. There would have been a free attempt regardless. You wiped. Once you wiped a free attempt was guaranteed. You pretending that you did some favor, or made some concession is pretty disingenuous at best. That'd be kind of like stealing $5 from someone, getting caught, then you giving the $5 back and claiming that was your punishment.

vanquish get a rush attempt in, wipe

riot/kittens get an unharrassed attempt, wipe

vanquish kill the mob

seems fair?

[tacomagradd]

Q3 As Vanq reads it:

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on deny guilt, and if your competitors engage before you, claim you gave them a "free" attempt that absolves you of all guilt.

Not a bad strategy. It may work, but the petition is coming. Maybe just a PNP violation for Klaz. Who knows?

Grats on the Hobarts!

[Hotel]

Q3 As Vanq reads it:

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on deny guilt, and if your competitors engage before you, claim you gave them a "free" attempt that absolves you of all guilt.

Not a bad strategy. It may work, but the petition is coming. Maybe just a PNP violation for Klaz. Who knows?

Grats on the Hobarts!

threatening with a petition

fucking losers can't even kill the mob

hope gms tell you to get bent

[Chakfor]

threatening with a petition

fucking losers can't even kill the mob

hope gms tell you to get bent

Adorable. Really helping drive home the horrible guild reputation there. Gonna threaten to kick peoples teeth in next? Maybe accuse somebody of being an internet tough guy? Or you gonna pull a Furoar and log into another guilds alt to train them?

[Hotel]

Adorable. Really helping drive home the horrible guild reputation there. Gonna threaten to kick peoples teeth in next? Maybe accuse somebody of being an internet tough guy? Or you gonna pull a Furoar and log into another guilds alt to train them?

complaining about being mean on a rants and flame forum

yes, i think you are that stupid

[Ennewi]

Who needs a raid recruitment thread with a spokesperson like Hotel?

[Ennewi]

*guild...raid...same difference at this point.

[Hotel]

Who needs a raid recruitment thread with a spokesperson like Hotel?

lol everyone knows me, i don't hide who i am

where do you think kittens members will go once these draft week pixels start to become a bit more appealing

are they jumping at the heels to join riot?

i guess we will have to see

[Samoht]

Q3 As Vanq reads it:

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on deny guilt, and if your competitors engage before you, claim you gave them a "free" attempt that absolves you of all guilt.

Not a bad strategy. It may work, but the petition is coming. Maybe just a PNP violation for Klaz. Who knows?

Grats on the Hobarts!

What do you call the strategy when <Riot> kites KT back to the throne room, refuses to drop it, and kills it anyway? Where's the concession?

[tacomagradd]

What do you call the strategy when <Riot> kites KT back to the throne room, refuses to drop it, and kills it anyway? Where's the concession?

I call this...

....

.....

......

.......

........

.........

Deflection?

[Hotel]

Q3 As Vanq reads it:

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on deny guilt, and if your competitors engage before you, claim you gave them a "free" attempt that absolves you of all guilt.

Not a bad strategy. It may work, but the petition is coming. Maybe just a PNP violation for Klaz. Who knows?

Grats on the Hobarts!

what rule is this exactly?

[Chakfor]

lol everyone knows me, i don't hide who i am

where do you think kittens members will go once these draft week pixels start to become a bit more appealing

are they jumping at the heels to join riot?

i guess we will have to see

I think they should go wherever they're happiest. If that means staying in Kittens, fine. If it means going to Riot, fantastic. If it means going to Vanquish after getting kicked out of Kittens, then good for them too.

[Hotel]

I think they should go wherever they're happiest. If that means staying in Kittens, fine. If it means going to Riot, fantastic. If it means going to Vanquish after getting kicked out of Kittens, then good for them too.

let the resentment flow through you

[Wokka]

I call this...

....

.....

......

.......

........

.........

Deflection?

Arcler citing irrelevant incidents from years ago and including them in recent raid petitions comes to mind

[titanshub]

Damn, you know you screwed up when you train someone so blatantly that the first thing you do is run to RNF to make a post about it.

[Hotel]

Damn, you know you screwed up when you train someone so blatantly that the first thing you do is run to RNF to make a post about it.

oh please dude

this shit has been so in your head all day that you made some pathetic post in the un saying that the guy *intentionally* trained your raid

do you guys deny that you had a free shot at vulak?

do you think the outcome would have been different if this train ever happened, if yes, how so?

this mellow dramatic bull shit is so emblematic of how dumb the raid scene is

if you actually care you would be asking gms for coherent rules in this horrible era of tov

[Gatordash]

Love to see the Kittens GL getting in the mud on RnF and in the UN. Thought it was just that jutebox guy from kittens slinging it.

[Chakfor]

let the resentment flow through you

Pretty sure that's your thing. Ya'll are the sith of the server, after all.

[SantagarBrax]

I don't understand why some of you feel the need to be so nasty towards each other. Sure, we all lose our shit from time to time, yet things have gotten out of hand. This server has the population of a small town high school and you guys seem to want to spew vitriol at any opportunity.

I don't have a problem with talking shit in the spirit of the competitive nature of the game, but a lot of you have taken it to another level and just see red at any and every juncture.

The amount of assumptions and pure speculation in the UN by Spacepope is absurd. The deterioration in relations these past few months has increased due to the lack of any GM's addressing petitions in a timely manner. This has only fueled further distrust, paranoia, and the imaginations of some seem to be running quite wild.

How about we all take a step back and try to be a little more empathetic, quit jumping to conclusions, and most of all stop letting our emotions dictate our accusations and choice of words.

I'm not saying it's Kumbaya Time, but come on and give just a little more effort towards not jumping the gun and blasting each other on impulse.

Unchained

[2eazy4]

Kittens had a free shot at Vulak next week.....oh wait...nevermind

[2eazy4]

Kittens had a free shot at Vulak next week.....oh wait...nevermind

Last week**

[Gatordash]

Damn, you know you screwed up when you train someone so blatantly that the first thing you do is run to RNF to make a post about it.

Back in my day <KWSM> would laugh at this sort of thing because P99 is just a casual game to have fun playing. Now you're writing 3 paragraph rants about a blatant intentional train and circling that a spell was cast on the fraps to back it up.

[titanshub]

oh please dude

this shit has been so in your head all day that you made some pathetic post in the un saying that the guy *intentionally* trained your raid

do you guys deny that you had a free shot at vulak?

do you think the outcome would have been different if this train ever happened, if yes, how so?

this mellow dramatic bull shit is so emblematic of how dumb the raid scene is

if you actually care you would be asking gms for coherent rules in this horrible era of tov

I think what is wrong with the raid scene is exemplified perfectly in this RNF post. There has been so little accountability for bad behavior that the first thing you do is come here to gloat and laugh about it because you believe that you can get away with it.

All the other details are irrelevant. Watch the video. Its clear what happened and why.

I can't help the fact that wiping under Vulak takes more time to recover from than wiping at doubles and you lost the race to the next engage even though you trained us and almost all our officers and leaders were distracted trying to identify what happened, negotiate with Vanquish, and upload their fraps instead of running a raid.

Nobody from Vanq offered a free attempt at Vulak this is a lie as best as I can tell. It was never brought up and everyone at the raid was under the impression we were racing for the second engage. It is hilarious that Valick waited until we rushed into our engage and wiped before casually mentioning that you were resuming. It's very on the nose.

Maybe a few more jokes about us wiping to Vulak will make you feel better about it?It's hard to say.

[titanshub]

Back in my day <KWSM> would laugh at this sort of thing because P99 is just a casual game to have fun playing. Now you're writing 3 paragraph rants about a blatant intentional train and circling that a spell was cast on the fraps to back it up.

It is a game. We have the right to compete fairly on an even playing field. I'm sorry I wrote too much.

[Gatordash]

It is a game. We have the right to compete fairly on an even playing field. I'm sorry I wrote too much.

Its not that you wrote too much its your guild's hypocrisy dipshit.

[Samoht]

Watch the video. Its clear what happened and why.

Maybe if you're trying to see what Arcler is telling you to see, but I've watched all three angles, and I fail to see any evidence of who the mobs were on besides Hoyi or an enchanter in <Riot>.

Yeah, Klaz is casting in the video, but as far as I'm aware, it's not against the rules for Klaz to cast spells in ToV.

They're not the target on assist; they're not the first to die.

I'd love to see any actual evidence before you start accusing people of wrong doing, but like I said, it's not against the rules for Klaz to cast spells in ToV. As far as I can tell, members of your raid pulled the drakes over the lip of the ramp, and they started killing people, including Klaz.

[titanshub]

Its not that you wrote too much its your guild's hypocrisy dipshit.

:eek:

[Nexii]

Lol a contested engage after training us is not a free attempt. Funny though

[Nexii]

now we just need to agree that we need the gms to give us rules and we are getting somewhere

I agree on this. When dragons were rooted, it was supposed to come with ruleset followups but that never happened. The meta has evolved to become train everything around which is far more ridiculous than unrooted dragons ever were. Now you have entire raids getting wiped out in the middle of ToV instead of the more safe entrance or exit areas.

Bag limits isn't a real fix. I think that like PoG, the rule should be that you have to kill any engaged guards/trash before the raid target. Maybe it'd result in standoffs but whatever. Something will give.

[Viscere]

I'm on a break, but seems that Vanquish still is the best guild to be part of

[Hotel]

I think what is wrong with the raid scene is exemplified perfectly in this RNF post. There has been so little accountability for bad behavior that the first thing you do is come here to gloat and laugh about it because you believe that you can get away with it.

All the other details are irrelevant. Watch the video. Its clear what happened and why.

I can't help the fact that wiping under Vulak takes more time to recover from than wiping at doubles and you lost the race to the next engage even though you trained us and almost all our officers and leaders were distracted trying to identify what happened, negotiate with Vanquish, and upload their fraps instead of running a raid.

Nobody from Vanq offered a free attempt at Vulak this is a lie as best as I can tell. It was never brought up and everyone at the raid was under the impression we were racing for the second engage. It is hilarious that Valick waited until we rushed into our engage and wiped before casually mentioning that you were resuming. It's very on the nose.

Maybe a few more jokes about us wiping to Vulak will make you feel better about it?It's hard to say.

actually the first thing i did was correct op's narrative to make it more in line with reality

the narrative is all in your head dude

you live in the drama of your own perception of people you have no understanding of

[Loke]

This has almost the exact same amount of evidence as that time Muadeb trained AG/F on an active Dozekar, and Riot claimed there wasn't enough evidence. Riot claimed to not see the same train that AG/F did, and that AG/F were making assumptions they did not agree with; just like now except with the roles reversed.

Anyone in Riot who honestly think their guild wouldn't be making the same arguments Vanquish is making now if the roles were reversed either hasn't been paying attention for the past year, or is a complete idiot. The fraps provided don't definitively implicate klaz, just like the evidence provided didn't definitively implicate Muadeb.

Also, who in the Riot brain trust came up with the idea of AEing Vulak's guards? Would really like to hear how they sold that idea to anyone remotely familiar with that encounter.

[Samoht]

Anyone in Riot who honestly think their guild wouldn't be making the same arguments Vanquish is making now if the roles were reversed either hasn't been paying attention for the past year, or is a complete idiot.

https://i.imgur.com/6rZ8g8R.jpeg

[Twochain]

So, somebody didn't cycle camp? or what happened? that was pretty far agro no ?

[sydbarrett25]

Gg

[zati]

Seems like a lot of angry nerds. Training a guild after wiping with sufficient evidence; denying said train with fraps then crying on forums after killing mob. Looks good to me.

No one really wins Everquest holds true every time. It's like the only game where you can win something(or nothing at all) and still have regrets or drama days later.

[sydbarrett25]

So, somebody didn't cycle camp? or what happened? that was pretty far agro no ?

Yea how did those vulak guards get in there? That was weird

[zati]

So, somebody didn't cycle camp? or what happened? that was pretty far agro no ?

If you watch the first video posted on the UN. You can clearly see Klaz (No visible name-plate but lines up with corpse screenshot) A feigned death dark elf wearing a robe at Xx:31 seconds. Gotta freeze frame it a cpl times to see it.

Logs shows him casting shortly afterwards which implies he stood up. Recasted FD as a green drake made it over the ramp and it had a new aggro message.

There was no new aggro messages on the flurries, glimmers, or drakes because the drake's AoE broke Klaz's new FD. Hence all the Vulak Flurries went straight for him(and low hp aggro) and everything else went for sitting players. Towards the end of the video you can actually see a dark elf die at around 1 minute in (Klaz) then new aggro messages being sent out.

[remen]

Seems like a lot of angry nerds. Training a guild after wiping with sufficient evidence; denying said train with fraps then crying on forums after killing mob. Looks good to me.


What sufficient evidence? All the videos you guys posted show a train coming in and killing a bunch of your members first, an assist on the train being on a member of your raid, and a person in your voice chat saying that you guys should have cycled camp and that some people didn't.

If anything, you guys should concede the next Vulak for crying wolf. It's disingenuous and manipulative to message another guild that you have evidence of being trained by them when you don't.


No one really wins Everquest holds true every time. It's like the only game where you can win something(or nothing at all) and still have regrets or drama days later.

I'd say we won at Everquest today, we killed Vulak and Tunare and had fun doing it. No regerts here. Maybe for you it feels like no one really wins EQ because you guys win so rarely. I'm guessing it's not as fun constantly being on the losing side? I wouldn't know.

[titanshub]

I encourage everyone to go look at the videos for themselves. All 3 have a piece of the puzzle hidden in them. . Goes forward 1 frame and , goes back. Don't believe anyone else. Go look for yourself.

Pro tip: sync the audio to correlate what happens in one video to the events of the other. FD takes 1.5 seconds to cast!

[remen]

Also gonna post this for posterity and lols...from runyan's fraps around the 1:20 mark shortly after we wiped:

"Kickenit tells Runyan: A gift from the gods
Runyan tells Kickenit: and were going to blow it"

Gotta love the confidence! =D

[remen]

In voice:

Jutebox: "Cycle camp since those mobs got so close up here...I would hate to see them come up here"

As train comes in:
"We should have cycled!"
"Apparently not everybody did"

[sydbarrett25]

In voice:

Jutebox: "Cycle camp since those mobs got so close up here...I would hate to see them come up here"

As train comes in:
"We should have cycled!"
"Apparently not everybody did"

Klaz wasnt in our coms, at least dont think he was. He should have cycled

[remen]

Klaz wasnt in our coms, at least dont think he was. He should have cycled

How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?

Clearly the point is that members of your raid were aware that your raid was in social range of the mobs and should have cycled camp, but didn't.

[Nexii]

So, somebody didn't cycle camp? or what happened? that was pretty far agro no ?

Your dude trained us lol. And did it blatantly. There is no reason to run up to doubles on a wipe and FD/stand

[Loke]

Even if Klaz was at fault, which I've seen no conclusive evidence of, what did the train actually change? In an alternate universe where no train occurs, Riot still wipes trying to AE Vulak's guards (again, kudos to the Riot brain trust on that brilliant strategy), and Vanquish still kills Vulak. You guys had all the time in the world to recover, so I'm assuming you engaged at full strength, and if you didn't, that's kind of on you for rushing when you had no reason to.

This is just another instance of Riot (and their B-Team, Kittens) trying to rule lawyer free mobs that they know they can rarely get competitively. AFAIK, Riot has still never killed a Vulak without either clearing 4 way or killing a guard or two. They just can't compete in the current early engage meta that requires a 6 guard kite and 4 way train away. When they do get Vulak it is either because Vanq has low numbers and Riot can clear without worrying about Vanq doing their normal engage, or because 4 way was clear already from killing a blocker.

Again, if the shoe was on the other foot, Riot would be making the same arguments Vanq is making. We've seen them make the exact same arguments before. The Doze example I gave earlier is a similar "train" scenario, and there are a number of situations where Riot has felt that allowing the other guild a fair shot at the mob should suffice (I remember a Dagarn ledge train specifically). This is a prime example of the double standard that both guilds are admittedly guilty of at times. If we want to set the precedent that allowing the other entity a shot at engage is sufficient (which imo we absolutely should as it would reduce petition quest), here is a great opportunity to set it.

But we all know that isn't what Riot's leadership actually wants. Some people (Arcler, JB, Jute, Space) clearly love this elf lawyer BS and getting up on their soap box in the UN, so they'll continue to play the victim until the shoe is on the other foot, and then pretend Vanquish submitting similar petitions is causing toxicity.

[Nexii]

The thread title is an admission that Vanquish decided not to concede Vulak not because of the facts of what obviously happened, but because KT went to petition. Lol.

[Yinein]

I don't care who's fault it is, kittens swarming rnf is sad. Hope that helps.

[Samoht]

Logs shows him casting shortly afterwards which implies he stood up. Recasted FD as a green drake made it over the ramp and it had a new aggro message.

None of the videos show any of this. The only thing they even show is Klaz casting spells, which is not against the rules.

[k9quaint]

Even if Klaz was at fault, which I've seen no conclusive evidence of, what did the train actually change? In an alternate universe where no train occurs, Riot still wipes trying to AE Vulak's guards (again, kudos to the Riot brain trust on that brilliant strategy), and Vanquish still kills Vulak. You guys had all the time in the world to recover, so I'm assuming you engaged at full strength, and if you didn't, that's kind of on you for rushing when you had no reason to.

This is just another instance of Riot (and their B-Team, Kittens) trying to rule lawyer free mobs that they know they can rarely get competitively. AFAIK, Riot has still never killed a Vulak without either clearing 4 way or killing a guard or two. They just can't compete in the current early engage meta that requires a 6 guard kite and 4 way train away. When they do get Vulak it is either because Vanq has low numbers and Riot can clear without worrying about Vanq doing their normal engage, or because 4 way was clear already from killing a blocker.

Again, if the shoe was on the other foot, Riot would be making the same arguments Vanq is making. We've seen them make the exact same arguments before. The Doze example I gave earlier is a similar "train" scenario, and there are a number of situations where Riot has felt that allowing the other guild a fair shot at the mob should suffice (I remember a Dagarn ledge train specifically). This is a prime example of the double standard that both guilds are admittedly guilty of at times. If we want to set the precedent that allowing the other entity a shot at engage is sufficient (which imo we absolutely should as it would reduce petition quest), here is a great opportunity to set it.

But we all know that isn't what Riot's leadership actually wants. Some people (Arcler, JB, Jute, Space) clearly love this elf lawyer BS and getting up on their soap box in the UN, so they'll continue to play the victim until the shoe is on the other foot, and then pretend Vanquish submitting similar petitions is causing toxicity.

If you had conceded, we would have taken the free Vulak and tried the science next week. In any case, Vanquish will implode eventually. The same group always have in the past, and probably always will. We just have to be patient while you are in your pupal stage :)

[remen]

The thread title is an admission that Vanquish decided not to concede Vulak not because of the facts of what obviously happened, but because KT went to petition. Lol.

The thread title was created by one member of the guild. To extrapolate that into the decision making and mindset of Vanquish as a whole demonstrates a lack of intelligence.

Vanquish decided not to concede Vulak because we didn't train you.

[Arvan]

Even if Klaz was at fault, which I've seen no conclusive evidence of, what did the train actually change? In an alternate universe where no train occurs, Riot still wipes trying to AE Vulak's guards (again, kudos to the Riot brain trust on that brilliant strategy), and Vanquish still kills Vulak. You guys had all the time in the world to recover, so I'm assuming you engaged at full strength, and if you didn't, that's kind of on you for rushing when you had no reason to.

This is just another instance of Riot (and their B-Team, Kittens) trying to rule lawyer free mobs that they know they can rarely get competitively. AFAIK, Riot has still never killed a Vulak without either clearing 4 way or killing a guard or two. They just can't compete in the current early engage meta that requires a 6 guard kite and 4 way train away. When they do get Vulak it is either because Vanq has low numbers and Riot can clear without worrying about Vanq doing their normal engage, or because 4 way was clear already from killing a blocker.

Again, if the shoe was on the other foot, Riot would be making the same arguments Vanq is making. We've seen them make the exact same arguments before. The Doze example I gave earlier is a similar "train" scenario, and there are a number of situations where Riot has felt that allowing the other guild a fair shot at the mob should suffice (I remember a Dagarn ledge train specifically). This is a prime example of the double standard that both guilds are admittedly guilty of at times. If we want to set the precedent that allowing the other entity a shot at engage is sufficient (which imo we absolutely should as it would reduce petition quest), here is a great opportunity to set it.

But we all know that isn't what Riot's leadership actually wants. Some people (Arcler, JB, Jute, Space) clearly love this elf lawyer BS and getting up on their soap box in the UN, so they'll continue to play the victim until the shoe is on the other foot, and then pretend Vanquish submitting similar petitions is causing toxicity.

Trains are ok if they don't change anything? What?

[Loke]

Trains are ok if they don't change anything? What?

I must have missed the part where I said that.

What I did say was that in the past, Riot has been fine with the notion that allowing the aggrieved party the chance to recover and get a shot at the mob is adequate compensation for a train if the contested mob is still in play. However, they only seem to bring this up when they are the one who caused the train. When they think they've been trained, that seems to go out the window and they demand concessions.

That said, still no convincing proof Klaz actually caused the train.

[Hotel]

If you had conceded, we would have taken the free Vulak and tried the science next week. In any case, Vanquish will implode eventually. The same group always have in the past, and probably always will. We just have to be patient while you are in your pupal stage :)

every guild ever has risen and fallen on this server, so yes, vanquish will die at some point

however, your guild is DYING, and i source your population numbers that respond to vulak bat phones as evidence of this

that is very different

[Ennewi]

I don't care who's fault it is, kittens swarming rnf is sad. Hope that helps.

Mimes Who Say Nothing's silence on this issue hurts.

[2eazy4]

If kittens was invited last week ya could’ve tried that strat on a uncontested vulak 😂😂


If you had conceded, we would have taken the free Vulak and tried the science next week. In any case, Vanquish will implode eventually. The same group always have in the past, and probably always will. We just have to be patient while you are in your pupal stage :)

[Ennewi]

however, your guild is DYING, and i source your population numbers that respond to vulak bat phones as evidence of this

A pandemic has subsided and the weather has warmed... Confirmation bias strikes again.

[Hotel]

A pandemic has subsided and the weather has warmed... Confirmation bias strikes again.

how is looking at a data point over time confirmation bias?

am i wrong that riot vulak responders has gone down over time?

[Arvan]

I must have missed the part where I said that.

What I did say was that in the past, Riot has been fine with the notion that allowing the aggrieved party the chance to recover and get a shot at the mob is adequate compensation for a train if the contested mob is still in play. However, they only seem to bring this up when they are the one who caused the train. When they think they've been trained, that seems to go out the window and they demand concessions.

That said, still no convincing proof Klaz actually caused the train.

Well i was there watching and none of our members brought a huge train of drakes and glimmers into our camp, but i did see klaz do that rofl. Too bad you weren't there to see.

[Ennewi]

how is looking at a data point over time confirmation bias?

am i wrong that riot vulak responders has gone down over time?

Any number of factors could be contributing, such as time of day/night. Perhaps go full stalker mode and check guild numbers more consistently?

[Kaitainz]

How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?

Clearly the point is that members of your raid were aware that your raid was in social range of the mobs and should have cycled camp, but didn't.

How can you be such a complete and utter FUCKTARD? Go watch the videos again, shit for brains. All mobs were reset and no agro... it was also called out in Coms, but you gaslighing bitches love to pick and choose and argue half truths... we didn't have any agro on them.

Then, watch my video, you will see, if you go frame by frame that your necro boy stands up, brings mobs in, FD's as it comes over the hill, and those mobs then go for sitting players now at the top of the agro table thanks to your necro. Then, when AE breaks his FD, they all go dogpile his ass.. then, they let out new messages, since their primary target with primary agro, is now dead. But hey.. keep living in fantasy land and go fuck yourself.

I thought the #1 raiding guild would understand game mechanics. Too bad I picked up your necro casting in my fraps, got him also standing up, and got him dying .... maybe you should look again, before you lie more... nm, that's your normal MO.. lie cheat and steal.. I guess you learned that from your guild leader. Fucking pathetic garbage human beings

[Samoht]

Then, watch my video, you will see, if you go frame by frame that your necro boy stands up, brings mobs in, FD's as it comes over the hill, and those mobs then go for sitting players now at the top of the agro table thanks to your necro. Then, when AE breaks his FD, they all go dogpile his ass.. then, they let out new messages, since their primary target with primary agro, is now dead. But hey.. keep living in fantasy land and go fuck yourself.

Link to video, please? I'd love to see some evidence that supports your claim because the ones in UN don't.

[Hotel]

Any number of factors could be contributing, such as time of day/night. Perhaps go full stalker mode and check guild numbers more consistently?

aftermath was literally laughed out of the room with the "bbq" meme, i have no sympathy for your points

you are making correlations, i am just stating something which is true

riot get less people to log in for vulak batphones than they ever have

[zszudy]

It is a game. We have the right to compete fairly on an even playing field. I'm sorry I wrote too much.

thats Rich coming from allies of Riot- the Lull pulling spirit of scale guild.

[Ennewi]

you are making correlations, i am just stating something which is true

Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

[Maralius]

aftermath was literally laughed out of the room with the "bbq" meme, i have no sympathy for your points

you are making correlations, i am just stating something which is true

riot get less people to log in for vulak batphones than they ever have

Are you referencing this week in particular? If so I wouldn't read too much into it. Father's Day weekend and people have lives.

[wrighter00]

What do you call the strategy when <Riot> kites KT back to the throne room, refuses to drop it, and kills it anyway? Where's the concession?

I would call it the same thing as Furor "racing" for a "win" on Sev only to drag it to the opposite side of the zone from any kind of kill spot and then dog legging it all the way along the zone wall down to TT. Particularly after calling that it was going to the Wiz portal first.

So we've established that there is no good faith, any attempt at a rule set, and that we'll be endlessly arguing to make it seem like folly play is normal. Gone are the days of true concessions? OFC, it's a free for all because no one expects the other guild to stop. From some perspective, Furor showed he isn't a great puller. Does he still get bragging rights? Does Klaz? Do we think this might be why a PVE server has been designed to be Mario kart instead?

DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO OFF TANK VULAK'S GUARDS OR EVEN MANAGE THEIR TRAINS!!?? :p

[Maschenny]

You are all missing how great P99 rivalries are. This server is amazing entertainment.

[wrighter00]

Furor's Sense Heading confirmed - 0

[Nutsax]

how is looking at a data point over time confirmation bias?

am i wrong that riot vulak responders has gone down over time?

Imbeciles in Freedom made the same argument, how are Freedom numbers?

[reznor_]

I do have to hand it to K/R, I think trying to aoe the Vulak guards was ballsy, so I salute that. I don't think it's feasible though.

[wrighter00]

To add - Does everyone in Vanquish understand that without a rule set or FTEs or any good faith, I could have pulled Sev right off him and taken it directly to my guild at a port in? This isn't a threat. It's an understanding that TSS or other small guilds that no longer exist or another better prepared guild could have stood a chance to get targets. Instead y'all have to try to cheese 100s of people in close enough to a target. Then people just join you for gear instead of gitting gud. That's why training is such a problem for ya. That's what server rules are for

I'm sure people will be salty with me, but whatever.

[Hotel]

To add - Does everyone in Vanquish understand that without a rule set or FTEs or any good faith, I could have pulled Sev right off him and taken it directly to my guild at a port in? This isn't a threat. It's an understanding that TSS or other small guilds that no longer exist or another better prepared guild could have stood a chance to get targets. Instead y'all have to try to cheese 100s of people in close enough to a target. Then people just join you for gear instead of gitting gud. That's why training is such a problem for ya. That's what server rules are for

I'm sure people will be salty with me, but whatever.

do you want to try to make a point again :confused:

we are bad because of...reasons?

[zati]

Link to video, please? I'd love to see some evidence that supports your claim because the ones in UN don't.

Videos in Un clearly show it. Maybe if you spent time learning how pulls actually work you would know the mechanics. Necros can Feign death. It is a spell that eliminates aggro. But if it somehow broken(Aoe) or they stand up whilst a mob isn't resetted then they will stay on aggro table.

A Necro from vanq had aggro into vulak guards, Ran to doubles behind a Raid force, Flopped then stood up until a green drake got to the top of the dbls ramp and feign death again. But, apparently that is not a train by definition in this thread.

[Croco]

I don't understand why some of you feel the need to be so nasty towards each other. Sure, we all lose our shit from time to time, yet things have gotten out of hand. This server has the population of a small town high school and you guys seem to want to spew vitriol at any opportunity.

I don't have a problem with talking shit in the spirit of the competitive nature of the game, but a lot of you have taken it to another level and just see red at any and every juncture.

The amount of assumptions and pure speculation in the UN by Spacepope is absurd. The deterioration in relations these past few months has increased due to the lack of any GM's addressing petitions in a timely manner. This has only fueled further distrust, paranoia, and the imaginations of some seem to be running quite wild.

How about we all take a step back and try to be a little more empathetic, quit jumping to conclusions, and most of all stop letting our emotions dictate our accusations and choice of words.

I'm not saying it's Kumbaya Time, but come on and give just a little more effort towards not jumping the gun and blasting each other on impulse.

Unchained

Yeah I know it's really weird right. Like one day someone will be saying a slur in guildchat and you ask them nicely not to and they double down and keep doing it in a very aggressive manner then they get guild removed because they can't show simple understanding and kindness to their own guildmates. Crazy how shit like that happens.

[Fazlazen]

Nerds

[zati]

What sufficient evidence? All the videos you guys posted show a train coming in and killing a bunch of your members first, an assist on the train being on a member of your raid, and a person in your voice chat saying that you guys should have cycled camp and that some people didn't.

If anything, you guys should concede the next Vulak for crying wolf. It's disingenuous and manipulative to message another guild that you have evidence of being trained by them when you don't.



I'd say we won at Everquest today, we killed Vulak and Tunare and had fun doing it. No regerts here. Maybe for you it feels like no one really wins EQ because you guys win so rarely. I'm guessing it's not as fun constantly being on the losing side? I wouldn't know.

I don't know about all that, but EQ always wins. You're still wanting to somehow lawyer quest a cry-wolf on here on a RNF after killing the mob and seeking validation of said kills; yet you cannot grasp how trains work in EQ.

Perhaps you can you find more words in this thread to twist them into your favor...or someone else's? It might get you 10 more Flippy Darkpaws. Or atleast make you feel like you won. Doesn't matter to me.

[reznor_]

To add - Does everyone in Vanquish understand that without a rule set or FTEs or any good faith, I could have pulled Sev right off him and taken it directly to my guild at a port in? This isn't a threat. It's an understanding that TSS or other small guilds that no longer exist or another better prepared guild could have stood a chance to get targets. Instead y'all have to try to cheese 100s of people in close enough to a target. Then people just join you for gear instead of gitting gud. That's why training is such a problem for ya. That's what server rules are for

I'm sure people will be salty with me, but whatever.

Please, just shut up. Smaller guilds ceased to be any sort of effective post root, and post clicky nerf. You're just embarrassing yourself. "Y'all" -- you say that like Riot never "cheese 100s of people" in close enough to a target.

[reznor_]

Smaller guilds ceased to be any sort of effective post root, and post clicky nerf.

Why, you ask? Because the rooting just "happened", and there were never any good attempts from server-side at creating a ruleset equipped for this meta. Hope that helps.

[Loke]

Pretty sure the puller on Sev got feared off course and killed, hence why there was a new FTE and the pull took a few minutes. If any other guild had wanted compete and was actually paying attention, Sev was unaggroed and free for them to pick up AFAIK. Riot could have done it, but you guys FTE'd Iki after losing the initial Sev FTE, and apparently no one else went after it.

[Aadill]

Shut the fuck up all of you lolol

[reznor_]

Shut the fuck up all of you lolol

Haven’t you retired yet?

[Aadill]

Haven’t you retired yet?

Nope

[reznor_]

Nope

As long as you’re still making good food. I’ve made sure to cut off the jagged edges of my homemade pasta ;)

[supercalif]

Just asking for a friend, do we get DKP for reading 13 pages in one sitting?

[tacomagradd]

Honestly our cycle camp was out of an abundance of caution and it worked, cause if you look at the videos you can see everything is reset... until a certain FD necro stands up and trains it all back cause he didn't /q.

The effort going in to obfuscate what happened is intense. Ya'll should start a (fake)news network!

I hope ya'll call your dads today, even though its clear he didn't spend much time teaching you how to human being.

[titanshub]

https://i.imgur.com/5MXKNAo.gif

[Grumph]

Honestly our cycle camp was out of an abundance of caution and it worked, cause if you look at the videos you can see everything is reset... until a certain FD necro stands up and trains it all back cause he didn't /q.

The effort going in to obfuscate what happened is intense. Ya'll should start a (fake)news network!

I hope ya'll call your dads today, even though its clear he didn't spend much time teaching you how to human being.


While I can respect your total lack of shame.

Frankly, trying to score points on people on Fathers Day with a comment like this is about as anti social as it gets.

30 year old game? What’s our average age then, 45? How many dudes here you think have lost their Dad?

And while we’re on the topic of thinking things through. Here’s a quick history lesson.

You see, I’m old enough to remember a few short months ago when “A Piercing Roar” was presented as evidence of a Riot train at Doze.

The response then? After a week of silence: Not enough evidence. No concession.

Literally the same evidence is presented now against Vanq at Vulak. In addition to hysterics about how they should’ve conceded on the spot instead of killing the mob!

…because due process and assumption of innocence is only valid for one side huh?



So if Jutebox doesn’t like you, you must be guilty of something and for sure your Dad was a deadbeat.

Wow.

[tacomagradd]

You see, I’m old enough to remember a few short months ago when “A Piercing Roar” was presented as evidence of a Riot train at Doze.


Right here folks. Confirmation of the evidence we presented and what it means: that Klaz trained us. But facts, evidence, and the truth just don't matter when you are still big mad about what happened a few short months ago.

[Boptop]

play nice nerds

[Loke]

Right here folks. Confirmation of the evidence we presented and what it means: that Klaz trained us. But facts, evidence, and the truth just don't matter when you are still big mad about what happened a few short months ago.

Except the GMs ruled in Riot's favor in that instance... so apparently the facts as the GMs see them don't support your position.

[NotCaros]

Right here folks. Confirmation of the evidence we presented and what it means: that Klaz trained us. But facts, evidence, and the truth just don't matter when you are still big mad about what happened a few short months ago.


... Same Energy:


15065

[NotCaros]

Exhibit A presented against Riot: A Piercing Roar!

Result: Not enough evidence. Presumption of innocence.

Exhibit B presented against Vanq: A Piercing Roar!

...Jutebox?

"The evidence is undeniable! And they're questioning of my accusations is a de facto admission of guilt! Also: F all your Dads (on Father's Day no less)."

Lord have mercy!

[tacomagradd]

I'll give you guys a choice, so that you can have a coherent, if not correct argument:

You can decide that despite your petition, Riot didn't actually train you at Doze a few months ago, or you can concede that the new agro messages that go out after Klaz dies demonstrate that he trained us.

I am just using your own logic, from your own petitions, to communicate game mechanics that you know about, but will ignore when it suits you. GM's could've decided on any number of factors in a past petition. Unless you have text that they ruled on that specific argument, you're drawing conclusions that don't exist.

[Samoht]

The effort going in to obfuscate what happened is intense. Ya'll should start a (fake)news network!

Nobody wants to obfuscate anything. We want clear evidence that supports your claim.

We're still waiting.

[myrddraal]

https://i.imgur.com/5MXKNAo.gif

ohhh thats a good one.

[Kaitainz]

https://i.imgur.com/5MXKNAo.gif

Amazing footage that was in the fraps posted in the UN that somehow all of Vanquish didn't see and continued to gaslight everyone that it didn't happen. What we have here is... failure to communicate!

I wonder what happens when you sync 2 videos up in the UN with the chat... I bet you can find all kinds of gems in them together....

[Samoht]

Can anybody provide a link to the video this gif clip came from or are you going to continue to be obstinate and difficult to work with?

[Pulgasari]

Can anybody provide a link to the video this gif clip came from or are you going to continue to be obstinate and difficult to work with?

Probably could. But im not gonna because you're a grumpy elf lawyer in need of a beating. :p

[Samoht]

No need. You won't link it because it doesn't actually show what you want it to show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTFbTn4SY8

The assist at 1:40 puts the train on Hoyi. Gif is a convenient edit that starts after at least half a dozen Kittens/Riot are already killed by the train. If the aggro bounces to Klaz, it could easily mean that his FD was broken and he was the most recent to log in.

[titanshub]

Amazing footage that was in the fraps posted in the UN that somehow all of Vanquish didn't see and continued to gaslight everyone that it didn't happen. What we have here is... failure to communicate!

I wonder what happens when you sync 2 videos up in the UN with the chat... I bet you can find all kinds of gems in them together....

Yeah I'm dumb and deleted the wrong thing. This is the new one.

https://i.imgur.com/9jijo81.gif

[tacomagradd]

Klaz was behind the entire raid and yet they still bee lined to him. Sure they killed people sitting along the way. If Klaz didn't have agro, they would've killed standing raiders well before him. But no, the merbs straight up ignore all standing raiders, and fly over our raid to kill Klaz.

If we'd trained ourselves, Klaz wouldn't have agro. The mobs would have no reason to go straight for him.

If you have a counter scenario that explains this, I am all ears.

But for now... case closed.

[Wokka]

The hypocrisy and bias among the hyper nerds is incredible. It doesn't really matter what happens, now or in the past or future. People will believe what they want to believe, reason and logic have no place in their narrative, and as long as they think they have "won" the argument, they will continue to think of themselves as morally superior. Pathetic. Go outside for a few days, turn off your computer and wake up to yourselves.

[Foxplay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTFbTn4SY8 (Runyun POV)

start of video 0-10 sec Klaz can be clearly seen running past Riot/Kittens
1:40-142: Vulak guards after social aggroing trash drakes at bottom of ramps come up the ramp, Fresh aggro messages on the social aggro'd mobs go out just as they reach the top of the ramp, prior to killing anyone this is indicative of dropped aggro, the rest of the train then social assists off of these new aggros and will prove this in the next video PoV
1:48 - 151 : Klaz stands up immediately pulling aggro from Vulak guards + blue drake
Fresh aggro messages go out upon Klaz death

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNcHkMbrGbc (Arrakkis PoV)

0:38-44: Trash drakes at bottom of ramp aggro somebody running by who dies, These trash drakes stop moving (clean), Vulak guards can then be seen comming down from tripples and social aggro these nearby drakes heading up to doubles (Klaz position)
0:48: As the train is comming up the ramp >> Klazdaxthun begins casting a spell (have to be standing to cast), exactly 1.5 seconds later (feign death cast time) Fresh aggro messages go out (Just like in Runyun's video)
0:59 Klaz begins casting a spell (standing) Immediatly pulls aggro from Vulak guards and those that assist him, again despite other players being in closer proximity and sitting

If riot/kittens was dirty there would have been no new aggro messages until whatever dirty player had died, but the new aggro messages came out exactly 1.5 seconds after Klaz is seen casting in Arrakkis video (cast time of feign death) which matches up with Runyun's perspective

TLDR; He was dirty the whole time, ran behind an opposing raid force while dirty, feigned, then later stood up while Vulak guards where up at tripples. Stayed standing long enough for them to come down ramp social aggro nearby drakes, and then feign death as they reach the top of the ramp. He then stands in an attempt to gate, but immediately peels aggro from everyone due to his previous aggro and dies

[Samoht]

Klaz was behind the entire raid and yet they still bee lined to him. Sure they killed people sitting along the way.

These two statements immediately contradict each other. Did they bee line to Klaz or did they kill other raiders first? It's not both.

If we'd trained ourselves, Klaz wouldn't have agro. The mobs would have no reason to go straight for him.

When you log in to a zone, you are assigned a new GUID when added to the table of players in the zone. NPCs will aggro the player with the highest GUID when no players have threat and there are multiple players in range.

[Kaitainz]

No need. You won't link it because it doesn't actually show what you want it to show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTFbTn4SY8

The assist at 1:40 puts the train on Hoyi. Gif is a convenient edit that starts after at least half a dozen Kittens/Riot are already killed by the train. If the aggro bounces to Klaz, it could easily mean that his FD was broken and he was the most recent to log in.

Since you obviously dont raid, when a necro FD's, and mobs are near ANYONE, and they are KoS, they will go after anyone. Maybe take a look and notice that once said necro FD's, they then go after a new player... btw, this could all be cleared up with said necro's Fraps... I mean.... Lets have Furoar interview him like he interviewed that great puller in Kael that made a video a week earlier of how to pull in kael, then said that was his first time ever pulling in Kael as his defense.. that was a fucking gem now...

[Samoht]

1:40-142: Vulak guards after social aggroing trash drakes at bottom of ramps come up the ramp, Fresh aggro messages on the social aggro'd mobs go out just as they reach the top of the ramp, prior to killing anyone this is indicative of dropped aggro, the rest of the train then social assists off of these new aggros and will prove this in the next video PoV

The assist is on Hoyi.

[Kaitainz]

The assist is on Hoyi.

Let me break this down for you barney style you absolute imbecile, or are you playing like a full retard, you never go full retard. The assist was after the new agro message, after the necro FD'ed. Maybe you should go watch the fucking video, slow it down real slow for your dumb ass and then try and understand, instead of playing mental gymnastics with yourself. Know what happens when a monk or SK or necro FD's successfuly, with pissed off mobs coming at him and now in range of other people? They go to kill the new people that they just found. its FUCKING amazing. Now, when dumbshit necro stands to get the hell out of dodge, for being a fucking wanker, guess what EVERY FUCKING mob around there does.. they go to murder his dumb ass. Know what this means shit for brains? It means he had the HIGHEST agro.

Now why was a necro FD in the back of an opposing raid force, btw, which was NO WHERE NEAR his own fucking raid.. so why was he even here in the first place... but lets ask that question in the next paragraph.

Why did he run up the ramp, to an opposing raids area.. with another kiter who had agro.. and brought said mobs up towards the t op of the ramp, and this necro, just happen to run behind this opposing raid force, all the while agro. Why did this necro not just /q like EVERY FUCKING FD class knows you MUST do to clear agro on any mobs that have agro on you that are not stationary position mobs. Lets now get to the meat and potatoes boys and girls. Why did he run there in the first place all the while having agro on Vulaks guards, and subsequently, everything else they come across. Why not /q at at triples all by yourself in the safe space you CoTH into... 0 reason to run up the ramp with a fellow kiter into an opposing forces area, no where near your own, unless, just maybe, your either a moron, or you planned on bringing mobs to slow/stop the opposing force from being able to engage. while you wiped. To argue anything before this, is absolutely moronic. Stop moving the goal posts and answer the basic questions, then we can move onto the harder ones. Enjoy!

[Foxplay]

The assist is on Hoyi.

That assist happens after the new aggro messages go out in the video. I know it can be a little confusing because it happens nearly at the same time but let me break it down for you...

1:40 (Runyun Video) , go frame by frame

Fresh aggro messages go out - he is still typing /ass , he has not hit enter yet. This assist happens after Klaz got feign death off as new aggro messages happened and Hoyi just happened to be what Klaz's trains went to aggro first

[tacomagradd]

When you log in to a zone, you are assigned a new GUID when added to the table of players in the zone. NPCs will aggro the player with the highest GUID when no players have threat and there are multiple players in range.

He didn't get a new GUID number.

He never left the zone.

He never claimed he left, and he's caught on the fraps running up, feigning, getting up, casting FD again, and then dying.

Classic train. 100% textbook training technique.

It is not a coincidence that he's in our camp.

It is not a coincidence that we got trained immediately after their Vulak wipe.

Even if he somehow magically /q'd and got a new GUID number (which he didn't), the chances that he's the highest GUID instead of ~100 kittens/riot that actually did just cycle camp is highly improbable.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the truth - and I think that is the case here. He ran up dirty, stood up and re-agro'd and trained the raid.

[Bardp1999]

now we just need to agree that we need the gms to give us rules and we are getting somewhere

You're a fucking retard if 3 pages of Raid rules is not enough to solve your confusion.

These rules are in addition to the rules found here – http://www.project1999.com/raid.php
And here – https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=325349

Please remember that Guild Leaders and/or officers may be held accountable (with personal account suspensions on any/all of their characters) for any actions of their guild members, in addition to any other actions that may be taken by the Staff. It is therefore the responsibility of the Guild Leadership to ensure that all guild members abide by these (and all server) rules.

Last Updated: July 16, 2018

Q1: What is considered a "raid" on Project 1999?
A: A raid is any group of players looking to engage a raid target OR any force consisting of more than one group united in a common goal. This means that three people can be considered a raid if they intend to kill a raid target, or 20 people clearing fear trash. Most epic NPC's are not considered "raid" mobs. The exception to this is Ragefire, which is considered a 'high tier' mob along with mobs like Lodizal and Vindi. For all other intents and purposes, these mobs are treated as a 'high tier' NPC (ie: camp/poopsock rules do not apply). Please keep in mind that because of the need to clear to a raid target, trains enacted on players while on the way to these mobs can be considered raid violations and action could be taken against your guild as a whole, regardless of whether the victims are part of a raid. It is in your best interest to be very careful when racing for a target, especially when it involves training away mobs.

Q2: What exactly is Raid Disruption or Raid Interference?
A: Q3 and Q4 deal with what to do when this happens, but "Raid disruption" and "raid interference" are broad terms that cover a long list of things (near simultaneous FTE, training, kill-stealing, setting of AEs on other people, any violation of the posted raid rules, etc).

Q3: If we feel our own guild/party has violated a rule, what actions should we take?
A: If you screw up, then you should concede the mob you screwed up on.

Q4: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: It is probably in your best interest to work raid disputes out among yourselves. The other option is the petition forum.

Q5: What about in cases where the mob dies before anyone is sure whom is at fault?
A: See Q4.
Note on Conceding / Forfeiting – You should concede a mob whenever your actions negatively impact another guild’s attempt at a mob, regardless of which zone the mob or the infraction take place in. Also, as far as what to concede / forfeit, if you still have a shot at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit that mob, if you do not still have a chance at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit the next two (it’s silly to try and concede a mob after you no longer have a real chance to kill that mob.

Note on Crying Wolf – if you request that another guild concede a mob, you better be 100% certain that they made an error, otherwise you may be punished harshly.


Note on Lockouts – if you concede a mob, or are suspended from a mob, those mobs will not be the mobs you are locked out from, they will be in addition to the mobs you are locked out from.

Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear. Anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions will not be rewarded. There will be no “technically this could be that”, or “well it doesn’t exactly say this word for word”. From this point forward we will be actively enforcing the spirit of these rules more so than the exact letter of the law. Don't expect to skirt passed a raid suspension on a loop hole or technicality.

Q6: If we must bring a dispute to the GM's, how do we go about doing this?
A: If a guild breaks a rule, and refuses to remedy the situation as described above, then have one officer or leader with the authority to negotiate disputes for your guild petition in the petition/exploit forum. Please use clear formatting, cohesive sentences, and paragraphs. A full and detailed description of the event must be submitted (if the video is more than a couple minutes then you should include timestamps of importance). Include fraps, screenshots, and logs where applicable. We also request you provide a brief summary of the negotiations that took place (and likely failed) prior to the dispute being escalated to the CSR staff.

--

Q7: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player. Once a mob has lost aggro on all players on its hate list, it will begin to path back towards its last location prior to being engaged. The mob is considered 'un-engaged' as soon as it is pathing back to where it belongs. You may engage the target as soon as you are able to obtain a new FTE message. You do not have to wait for it to path all the way back to its spawn spot. The intentional manipulation of FD, Charm, DA, and other similar mechanics used to engage/disengage a raid target multiple times in an attempt to prevent other guilds/parties from engaging, or to try and get another guild/party wiped, will be viewed as raid disruption.

Q8: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: No, all raid targets are first to engage. Note* If another guild/party wipes on a raid mob, you may engage that raid mob, as soon as its aggro/hate list is clear. You do not have to wait for it to path back to its spawn spot, nor do you have to wait for it to regen back to full health.

Q9: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns? Either by turn in or the killing of another mob?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Avatar of War), the guild/party that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild/party on a first to engage basis once the first guild/party either no longer has a presence, or the first guild/party has wiped, or has not been engaged within the 20 minute time limit. To clarify, one engage is defined as the mob getting aggro on one or more players from the raid, and then ending after losing aggro/resetting when those players have been killed or forced to abandon the fight. Once a triggered spawn no longer has aggro on anyone, it can be killed by anyone.

Q10: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited, stalled, or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, stall, or otherwise keep occupied a raid mob without intention of killing it. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stalling of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild/party, is against the rules. Ignorance is not an excuse to break this rule. If you are pulling raid targets, we expect you to know what you’re doing.

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies or zones, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone. This means actually communicate so that both parties have a fair amount of time to work out a safe place, or a safe time to drop the train. Please try not to run your trains within aggro range of another guild or raid party.

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done. But the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength, while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

Q13: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: Yes. Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild/party in Hate and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing something else. Basically, don't be a douche bag. If you insist on being in the same plane at the same time as another guild/party, you may not set up camp on top of where another guild/party has already set up camp. To clarify, there is no limit to the number of guilds/people allowed in the planes at one time.

Q14: Do we have "No-CSR" zones on Project 1999?
A: At the moment, no.

Q15: Are either of my two trackers allowed to get FTE?
A: Absolutely not. If one of your trackers gains FTE, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Furthermore, if a guild gets FTE, any other guilds that are tracking the mob and end up with tracker FTE as a result of the first guild are not DQd from the mob.

Q16: Are we allowed to bind at raid mobs? And/or camp out toons at raid mobs?
A: Absolutely not.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

Q18: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: As always, your tears and crying of favoritism are important to us; for without you we couldn't possibly run things around here.

Q19: What if I think a Staff member made a mistake?
A: If you feel that a Staff member may have made a mistake, we encourage you to politely and respectfully explain the situation in the Petition/Exploit section of our forums.

Q20: What if I have a legitimate complaint against a Staff member?
A: Any complaints against a Staff member should be sent to Llandris via a private message on the Project 1999 forums. Any complaints against Llandris should be directed to Rogean via a private message on the Project 1999 forums. Any complaints against Rogean should be directed to Nilbog via a private message on the Project 1999 forums.

Q21: How much time do I have to file a petition?
A: In order to request the review of a dispute, there must be a petition in the petition/exploit forum about the incident no more than one week (seven days) from the time of the dispute in question. The seventh day is the last day a dispute may be escalated to the server GMs. When filing a dispute, please use the "Other" prefix, with the title of the thread relevant to the incident. You must list at least one primary contact from your guild who has the authority to communicate with the staff and the opposing guild, as well as make decisions regarding the incident. Improperly filed petitions will be ignored. While we do accept Fraps that has been edited to point out specific things, you must also include the original unedited version (meaning all video and audio) or it may be ignored.

Q22: Are we allowed to use Rezz or Rezz bot tactics to acquire FTE?
A: In short, no. do not park corpses at raid mobs with the intent of rezzing them in for FTE, do not etc.

Q23: What exactly is off limits during a Raid Suspension?
A: Anything that has an FTE message and/or is considered more than one group content is a no (except Guardian Kozzalym, Master Yael, Verina Tomb, Vessel Drozlin, Lodizal, and Ragefire), no planes, no VP, no ToV, no ST, no Ringwar.

Q24: How many raid targets can a guild be killing, engaged on, or have FTE on at a single time?
A: A guild may only be killing, engaged on, or have FTE on one raid target at a time.

Q25: If my guild FTE's or engages a raid target, how long must we wait before FTE'ing or engaging another raid target?
A: If a guild/party FTEs or engages a raid target, they may not FTE or engage a second raid target until the first one is dead or until 30 minutes has passed (this doesn't apply to triggered spawn targets that your guild triggered/spawned). Example: If your guild is in EJ and you have Sev incoming to your raid, but then Vulak pops, you are no longer allowed to just drop the Sev pull to go for Vulak. You must either kill Sev, or wait 30 minutes before FTEing a new target. The only thing this rule does is further force guilds to prioritize which targets they go after. It does not change any other aspect of raiding on the server.

Q26: What exactly does the staff consider a Raid mob?
A: Aary, Avatar of War, Cazic_Thule, Cekenar, Dagarn, Dain, Dozekar, Druushk, Eashen, Faydedar, Final_Arbiter, Gorenaire, Gozzrem, Hoshkar, Ikatiar, Innoruuk, Jorlleag, Kelorek_Dar, King_Tormax, Klandicar, Lady_Mirenilla, Lady_Nev, Lady_Vox, Lendiniara, Lord_Feshlak, Lord_Koi`Doken, Lord_Kreizenn, Lord_Nagafen, Lord_Vyemm, Master_of_the_Guard, Nexona, Phara_Dar, Progenitor, Sevalak, Severilous, Silverwing, Sontalak, Statue_of_Rallos_Zek, Talendor, Telk, Trakanon, Tunare, Velketor, Venril_Sathir, Vulak, Wuoshi, Xygoz, Yelinak, Zlandicar, Zlexak, as well as Fright, Dread, Terror, and Draco in Plane of Fear, all named mobs in Plane of Growth, all of Plane of Sky (this does not apply to island 1.5 in Sky (Noble/Gwan)), along with Maestro and mini bosses in Plane of Hate (if a guild is actively clearing hate when a mini boss spawns, they will not be DQ'd from that mini boss).

Q27: What happens if there's a simulated re-pop while we are currently in a raid zone?
A: As long as the person or persons that were in the zone leave that zone and come back before doing anything with the desired raid target, you will not be DQ'd from that target (camping/logging out of game does not count). We do not want people socking re-pops, but we also do not want to punish players by preventing them from doing other things (like HoT, Juggs, Vindi, etc) for fear of getting their guild DQ'd. This should accomplish both of those things, but will be updated if/as needed.

Q28: Where are starting lines for FTE racers?
A: Dain Frostreaver IV: Behind the archway just past the zone line.
Faydedar: On the island with the Ogre camp (#1 on wiki map).
Gorenaire: At the druid rings.
Kael Drakkal: Behind the ice/snow line at the Wakening Lands zone line.
Kelorek`Dar: At the zone in rings or Siren's Grotto zone line.
Lady Vox: Before the ladder at the zone in.
Lord Nagafen: In the entrance tunnel from Lavastorm.
Lord Yelinak: At the fountain to Cobalt Scar or Wakening Lands zone line.
Severilous: At the Field of Bone or Trakanon's Teeth zone lines.
Sleeper's Tomb: Behind the entrance door.
Talendor: At the Burning Woods or Overthere zone lines.
Temple of Veeshan: Behind the bottom step just past the entrance door.
Trakanon: At the zone in.
Veeshan's Peak: On the blue entrance pad.
Venril Sathir: The hallway between the entrance zonelines.
Zlandicar: Behind the zone in portal.
---
Plane of Fear: At the PoF portal in Feerrott.
Plane of Hate: Anywhere not in Hate unless actively clearing with a raid force.

Q29: Can we use Illusions or Crown of rile on races?
Crown of Rile spam + Jumping is not allowed on any races.

AON or Skeleton Illusion is not allowed on any races.

Q30: What can a tracker do?
A tracker can't be on the encounter log. Trackers are for tracking, not kiting, pulling, DPSing or healing.

Example: A mage tracker can COTH + lay down rods, but can't nuke or send his pet in.
A cleric tracker can rez dead bodies, but can't heal any players that are part of the encounter.

Q31: What is a concession? Are there any specific rules around concessions?
The server staff views a concession as an agreement between two Guilds when one of them recognizes that they broke an agreement and/or violated a raid rule. It is a first-line option that should be taken prior to and (hopefully) as an alternative to submitting a petition for a rule being violated. It is generally a better option for all involved, as a Guild who habitually refuses concessions that are deemed appropriate by server staff could eventually be held accountable for crying wolf.

The terms of those concessions are something that would need to be agreed upon by both Guilds as acceptable recompense for the situation. While there is pretty strong past precedence in terms of concessions, the server staff does not mandate specific concessions in specific scenarios.

Once a concession is offered and accepted, it's binding for BOTH Guilds. One of the Guilds agrees to bypass a number of kills of a certain mob or mobs, while the other agrees not to petition for the situation that drove the concession. If an extreme scenario arises where either Guild feels warranted backing out from this agreement, I would strongly recommend discussing it with the other Guild and reaching out to CSR prior to doing so. We could see this as a form of defrauding another player or Guild. In addition to the potential raid violation, it could be considered a PNP infraction.


A lot of you have questions as to crime & punishment; I hope to address that here:
If a petition comes to the staff, the offending guild/party will have the loots removed (if they got the kill), and will be suspended from all raid targets for 7 days if found in violation (to be more in line with PNP violations). If a guild wastes the staffs time with false, trumped up, dishonest, or insincere petitions against other guilds, then the petitioning guild will receive the suspension. In addition to this, if the petitioning guild is found to be at fault, the loot will be destroyed and not awarded to anyone. In addition to that, individual blanket suspensions will also be applied (ie: suspended for training if caught training, etc). Habitual offenders of these rules will have their raid suspension time doubled each time they are suspended (counters will reset after 3 months without a suspension).


Any Raid petitions made after the date and time of this post will subject to the guidelines stated in this post.


I hope this provides some clarification on a number of rules we have had in the past, as well as cementing some new rules that were recently added.

[Nutsax]

The hypocrisy and bias among the hyper nerds is incredible. It doesn't really matter what happens, now or in the past or future. People will believe what they want to believe, reason and logic have no place in their narrative, and as long as they think they have "won" the argument, they will continue to think of themselves as morally superior. Pathetic. Go outside for a few days, turn off your computer and wake up to yourselves.

There is objective truth; the videos plainly shows a fd class training a raid. Only a imbecile would claim otherwise.
He had no reason to be there, no reason to stand and bring in mobs to wipe out people sitting before mobs attack and kill him, no reason to not /q while fd, no reason to run past a competing guild, and his silence on this thread explaining his actions is deafening.
Textbook training. QED
He should be banned.

[tombombadilo21]

mega immersed hotel

Go outside.

[remen]

Your dude trained us lol. And did it blatantly. There is no reason to run up to doubles on a wipe and FD/stand

He didn't train you guys. He ran up there as our cameraman to fraps your raid and make sure you weren't trying to slow down vulak guards or trash by kiting them through the lava. We all know mobs swim more slowly than they run.

[remen]

How can you be such a complete and utter FUCKTARD? Go watch the videos again, shit for brains. All mobs were reset and no agro... it was also called out in Coms, but you gaslighing bitches love to pick and choose and argue half truths... we didn't have any agro on them.

Then, watch my video, you will see, if you go frame by frame that your necro boy stands up, brings mobs in, FD's as it comes over the hill, and those mobs then go for sitting players now at the top of the agro table thanks to your necro. Then, when AE breaks his FD, they all go dogpile his ass.. then, they let out new messages, since their primary target with primary agro, is now dead. But hey.. keep living in fantasy land and go fuck yourself.

I thought the #1 raiding guild would understand game mechanics. Too bad I picked up your necro casting in my fraps, got him also standing up, and got him dying .... maybe you should look again, before you lie more... nm, that's your normal MO.. lie cheat and steal.. I guess you learned that from your guild leader. Fucking pathetic garbage human beings

Well that escalated quickly, take a deep breath and calm down. Note that you are the one cursing and using personal attacks rather than have a rational debate about what happened. Oh, and nice job sneaking in gaslighting again, look how well you are doing!

[Nutsax]

He didn't train you guys. He ran up there as our cameraman to fraps your raid and make sure you weren't trying to slow down vulak guards or trash by kiting them through the lava. We all know mobs swim more slowly than they run.

He did train.
"Mobs swim more slowly than they run".....isn't this how you delinked Tunare for 6 months?

[remen]

Just finished reading some of the convoluted and ridiculously outlandish conjecture of what you think happened, by breaking things down frame by frame and asserting your opinions of cause and effect as facts.

I'll try to simplify the explanation, in the order of events as they happened, to clear up the confusion. As I mentioned in my previous post, Klax ran up there as our cameraman to fraps your raid to make sure you weren't trying to slow down vulak guards or trash by kiting them through the lava, or pull some other type of shenanigans to de-sync the vulak guards and mess with his call mechanic.

Members of your raid were dirty (had agro on the train) and didn't cycle camp. This was stated in voice in the fraps you provided. When we dropped the vulak guards, they ran to the players that were still dirty, and social agroed all of the mobs along the way, including the ones you see reset in the three way. The train goes straight for players in your camp, and the fraps you provided show an assist on a member of your raid. Multiple members of your raid are killed, and not just the ones sitting down closest to where the train came in. As your dirty players are being taken out by the train, the mobs cast AoE spells which breaks the FD of klax, who has been FD up there without any agro. After his FD is broken by the mobs that you trained to that area, he is also killed by the train.

I hope you all enjoyed your father's day barbecues, and maybe by next vulak your leadership will try and execute a better plan, rather than fish for concessions and make excuses for losing.

[remen]

He did train.
"Mobs swim more slowly than they run".....isn't this how you delinked Tunare for 6 months?

I see the sarcasm went right over your head. Silly people in leadership positions of your guild pushed this narrative for months with no proof. Mobs don't move more slowly in water, I was being sarcastic.

[sydbarrett25]

Let me break this down for you barney style you absolute imbecile, or are you playing like a full retard, you never go full retard. The assist was after the new agro message, after the necro FD'ed. Maybe you should go watch the fucking video, slow it down real slow for your dumb ass and then try and understand, instead of playing mental gymnastics with yourself. Know what happens when a monk or SK or necro FD's successfuly, with pissed off mobs coming at him and now in range of other people? They go to kill the new people that they just found. its FUCKING amazing. Now, when dumbshit necro stands to get the hell out of dodge, for being a fucking wanker, guess what EVERY FUCKING mob around there does.. they go to murder his dumb ass. Know what this means shit for brains? It means he had the HIGHEST agro.

Now why was a necro FD in the back of an opposing raid force, btw, which was NO WHERE NEAR his own fucking raid.. so why was he even here in the first place... but lets ask that question in the next paragraph.

Why did he run up the ramp, to an opposing raids area.. with another kiter who had agro.. and brought said mobs up towards the t op of the ramp, and this necro, just happen to run behind this opposing raid force, all the while agro. Why did this necro not just /q like EVERY FUCKING FD class knows you MUST do to clear agro on any mobs that have agro on you that are not stationary position mobs. Lets now get to the meat and potatoes boys and girls. Why did he run there in the first place all the while having agro on Vulaks guards, and subsequently, everything else they come across. Why not /q at at triples all by yourself in the safe space you CoTH into... 0 reason to run up the ramp with a fellow kiter into an opposing forces area, no where near your own, unless, just maybe, your either a moron, or you planned on bringing mobs to slow/stop the opposing force from being able to engage. while you wiped. To argue anything before this, is absolutely moronic. Stop moving the goal posts and answer the basic questions, then we can move onto the harder ones. Enjoy!

[Nutsax]

I see the sarcasm went right over your head. Silly people in leadership positions of your guild pushed this narrative for months with no proof. Mobs don't move more slowly in water, I was being sarcastic.

It's hard to know when an imbecile is being sarcastic.

[ArbiterBlixen]

It's hard to know when an imbecile is being sarcastic.

Just take the L, Nutsax. It happens.

[Hotel]

literally all of this drama could have been avoided if *one* person in your raid could provide fraps of your claims

does no one have a video of klaz standing up?

from my understanding you dont.

and so because you dont have this hard evidence, and you just have circumstantial evidence you are trying to make your case by reeeeeing on un and forums

You're a fucking retard if 3 pages of Raid rules is not enough to solve your confusion.


be careful with these gamer words kittens

and so instead of linking me to a rule you linked me to the rules page - presumably because the rule we broke is so evident that it should be obvious for me to find in there?

[Awweshux]

What evidence do you have of his intention to train you? You state in the UN "We have provided evidence that one of your players (Klazdaxthun) intentionally wiped our raid ..."

It's tiresome hearing Riot claim intention over and over.

[Nutsax]

What evidence do you have of his intention to train you? You state in the UN "We have provided evidence that one of your players (Klazdaxthun) intentionally wiped our raid ..."

It's tiresome hearing Riot claim intention over and over.

Stop gaslighting, it isn't working.

[Hotel]

Stop gaslighting, it isn't working.

show me a video of your evidence without having to preface it with an essay explaining what you think actually happened that isnt being shown in the video you provided

just show me klaz standing up

[Samoht]

The assist was after the new agro message, after the necro FD'ed.

Then your video is absolutely useless. Just like the rest of your post.

[Nutsax]

The gaslighting is too funny lol.

[xdrcfrx]

the real shit gonna be when everyone is suspended for not playing nice because vanquish intentionally trains and refuses to admit it or own up to it.

Roselynas was guild removed for training wyverns at dagarn a few weeks back. how long before (former kittens officer) klaz is thrown under the bus?

[Nexii]

We'll take Klaz I think it was far too obvious a train to be intentional

[Nutsax]

the real shit gonna be when everyone is suspended for not playing nice because vanquish intentionally trains and refuses to admit it or own up to it.


Truth.

[Oldschoolplayer]

This thread is garbage. Everyone get over it and move on. The generalizations and accusations are laughable. The unwillingness to think of alternative explanations for any raid dispute is also laughable.

There is only toxicity if you let there be. Flame away though

[Skarne]

This thread is garbage. Everyone get over it and move on. The generalizations and accusations are laughable. The unwillingness to think of alternative explanations for any raid dispute is also laughable.

There is only toxicity if you let there be. Flame away though

I agree with this fellow.

[Bardp1999]

Its all very simple

1) You have 2 raid entities.
2) Both have players spending full time job hours on tracking and screen sharing (40+ hours per week).
3) 1 guild wins 1 guild loses.
4) Losing guild does mental gymnastics to convince themselves the 40 hours they just spent tracking was worth it somehow.

[tacomagradd]

He didn't train you guys. He ran up there as our cameraman to fraps your raid and make sure you weren't trying to slow down vulak guards or trash by kiting them through the lava. We all know mobs swim more slowly than they run.

Get a bind sight class for this. Otherwise I guess we now need to have a person watching the person watching. Then your our will need to be watched by another one of your watchers. By the year 2025, the entire planet will be playing p99 and we just don't have the bandwidth for that. We'll all just delink.

There's a solid Better Off Ted episode about this.

https://youtu.be/lMy5YpJysy4?t=182

[remen]

Roselynas was guild removed for training wyverns at dagarn a few weeks back. how long before (former kittens officer) klaz is thrown under the bus?

This is completely incorrect. Whoever was your source of this information either was misinformed themself or just flat out lied to you. Take anything they tell you in the future with a giant grain of salt.

Get a bind sight class for this. Otherwise I guess we now need to have a person watching the person watching. Then your our will need to be watched by another one of your watchers. By the year 2025, the entire planet will be playing p99 and we just don't have the bandwidth for that. We'll all just delink.

There's a solid Better Off Ted episode about this.

https://youtu.be/lMy5YpJysy4?t=182

You guys don't send bind sight cameramen to our growth raids. You really can't capture all the views and angles looking through someone else's point of view. We strive for a high standard in the production quality of our fraps. Get some close ups, wide angle shots, panoramic views, etc...

[Twochain]

I skipped a few pages in this thread, and keep in mind i'm watching this video again today with my referee jersey on.

1. Of all the times that i've split mobs exactly where Riot/Kittens camp is, i've NEVER agro'd mobs that far. On top of that, I feel like that huge ramp breaks line of sight for the most part. For instance, an eyeball, (From my Anecdotal, non "i've tested these mechanics and i'm certain of it" opinion) at the top of that ramp will not agro mobs near the ramp to trips unless you go down the ramp. At the top, it never agros.

2. All the mobs run to the BACK of your raid, where I can all but Guarantee that if a train was flopped where it was, it wouldn't agro those players first.

3. I do not see a "Hitch" in agro. It looks like the train is dropped around Trips ramp. And IMMEDIATELY runs towards the BACK of your raid. Actually. Looking at this further, It looks like there are 3-4 mobs that drop agro, at around the 40-43 second mark. Then the entire train comes down from trips, agros the mobs that are dropped, and they all come towards your raid. Those mobs from trips Almost absolutely look like they were agro'd on someone in the back of your raid.

4. I don't believe that it would be possible for someone to flop that train at the bottom of the ramp and for the train to behave the way it did without prior agro. What class is Darmai? Looks like they were the first person attacked in that train. (51-52, Darmai gets double back stabbed for 2300 damage+ oof)

[Horza]

Get a bind sight class for this. Otherwise I guess we now need to have a person watching the person watching. Then your our will need to be watched by another one of your watchers. By the year 2025, the entire planet will be playing p99 and we just don't have the bandwidth for that. We'll all just delink.

There's a solid Better Off Ted episode about this.

https://youtu.be/lMy5YpJysy4?t=182

This is derivative of the PKD novel A Scanner Darkly.

[Twochain]

Also............

Why are we not racing for vulak with lockouts? LMAO. I can't believe people would rather deal with shit like this every single time there is a competitive Vulak... because Hurrrrr MaRiO KaRt???

Yeah racing wasn't classic. Neither was having two forces with 100 members each squaring off for a rooted Vulak every week. How many man hours have been spent on this petition by all three guilds + the forums looking at this shit... when it could have been settled in a 3 minute race?

[xdrcfrx]

4. I don't believe that it would be possible for someone to flop that train at the bottom of the ramp and for the train to behave the way it did without prior agro. What class is Darmai? Looks like they were the first person attacked in that train. (51-52, Darmai gets double back stabbed for 2300 damage+ oof)



This the easiest to answer - darmai is an enchanter, and he did cycle camp after mobs were brought partially up the ramp, which led to call for cycle camp.

From my vantage nearby, i didn't think the mobs got up the ramp far enough to aggro any of our raid at the top. none of our raid was down the ramp at any time, we gave the vanq trainaway and kite plenty of room.

if you all skate on this one because the OBS isn't clear enough, that's just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. I hope at least internally you all recognize that either klaz intentionally trained us, or made a serious error that resulted in the same, and that in either case regardless of the public fronting that's wrong. Not holding my breath, though.

[Awweshux]

Seems clear that what happened is:

1) Klaz runs up ramp and FD; probably was "oh shit" seeing R camped there but FD land so ok

2) Riot ppl are at edge of ramp

3) As clearly stated in the fraps, R ppl did not cycle camp

4) Fraps shows R ppl too close to edge of ramp so in danger of aggro FD'd train

5) Once R ppl get aggro, merbs AoE and break Klaz FD; he tries to FD again but dies w/ R


That is all.

Eschew Obfuscation, 60 Dru

[Twochain]

This the easiest to answer - darmai is an enchanter, and he did cycle camp after mobs were brought partially up the ramp, which led to call for cycle camp.

From my vantage nearby, i didn't think the mobs got up the ramp far enough to aggro any of our raid at the top. none of our raid was down the ramp at any time, we gave the vanq trainaway and kite plenty of room.

if you all skate on this one because the OBS isn't clear enough, that's just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. I hope at least internally you all recognize that either klaz intentionally trained us, or made a serious error that resulted in the same, and that in either case regardless of the public fronting that's wrong. Not holding my breath, though.

Okay so from what I now understand, you guys claim that Klaz was at the back of your camp. How far from the camp would he be? Also I don't see in the fraps where he runs up the ramp to join your camp? Do ya'll have that part?

If he was in your camp, i'd expect the train to kill him pretty quickly. As he WOULD have more agro into the kite than your whole raid. In my opinion, as soon as Aoe's went out (which a shit load would go out right away) He would likely be one of the first 5 people who died.

Now on to the enchanter who died first. If he cycled camp, did he cast Rune 5 on people? If he casted Rune on somebody who did not cycle, that would absolutely explain why the train b lines it to the back and kills him first. VoG/C2 probably wouldn't put him that high on the agro table comparatively speaking, to say a cleric casting aego, etc. These are important things to consider. If he camped, logged back in, and sat there afk not casting a single thing on a single player, that's important to know.

[Samoht]

Okay so from what I now understand, you guys claim that Klaz was at the back of your camp. How far from the camp would he be? Also I don't see in the fraps where he runs up the ramp to join your camp? Do ya'll have that part?

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTFbTn4SY8

I asked them to link it last night, but they refused because they'd rather be obstinate jerks than actually provide evidence. Whatever.

Video shows Klaz run up the ramp. A loonnggg time later, train comes up. Assist is on someone named Hoyi, though, not Klaz.

Now on to the enchanter who died first. If he cycled camp, did he cast Rune 5 on people? If he casted Rune on somebody who did not cycle, that would absolutely explain why the train b lines it to the back and kills him first. VoG/C2 probably wouldn't put him that high on the agro table comparatively speaking, to say a cleric casting aego, etc. These are important things to consider. If he camped, logged back in, and sat there afk not casting a single thing on a single player, that's important to know.

The answer to why it attacked Darmai is in their previous post:

This the easiest to answer - darmai is an enchanter, and he did cycle camp after mobs were brought partially up the ramp, which led to call for cycle camp.

If this is true, then he had the highest GUID on the players in zone table. I thought maybe Klaz had previously /q out and that would explain why it would attack him as early as it did. Here's the explanation:

When you log in to a zone, you are assigned a new GUID when added to the table of players in the zone. NPCs will aggro the player with the highest GUID when no players have threat and there are multiple players in range.

If Darmai cycled camp, this is why it went for him first.

[Samoht]

Question: What class is Hoyi? And if they're not an FD class, what order did they die in?

[tacomagradd]

At 1:51 of that video you can see at least 4 flurries attack 4 different people. Those four people didn't all pull agro after it all reset. They had the train dropped on them from Klaz, who stood up and feigned it back on top of them. If it was just Hoyi, or just Darmai, or a GUID number issue, then I don't see the mobs having 4 different targets.

I don't have any confidence that you are convincible, yet here I am.

[zati]

Question: What class is Hoyi? And if they're not an FD class, what order did they die in?

He's a wizard. 3-Way was fully reset at some point and social'd with Vulak guards. Meaning someone had to have put Direct aggro into them. Psure he died immediately after Darmai when Klaz flopped among other players that were sitting and freshly cycled.

[titanshub]

Provide an alternate explanation that fits with known game mechanics and the evidence or just admit it and let's move on.

Darmai is a 60 chanter who just cycled.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Provide an alternate explanation that fits with known game mechanics and the evidence or just admit it and let's move on.


That's not how the Salem witch trials happens.

[Ennewi]

That's not how the Salem witch trials happens.

"That fits the known game mechanics." Witchcraft wasn't, and still isn't, a known mechanic of reality as we perceive it.

[Twochain]

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTFbTn4SY8

I asked them to link it last night, but they refused because they'd rather be obstinate jerks than actually provide evidence. Whatever.

Video shows Klaz run up the ramp. A loonnggg time later, train comes up. Assist is on someone named Hoyi, though, not Klaz.



The answer to why it attacked Darmai is in their previous post:



If this is true, then he had the highest GUID on the players in zone table. I thought maybe Klaz had previously /q out and that would explain why it would attack him as early as it did. Here's the explanation:



If Darmai cycled camp, this is why it went for him first.

Interesting, I didn't know about the GUID mechanic. So if multiple level 60s are sitting down in a pack it will attack the person with the highest GUID first? In an agro order that is.

whythefuckamifrapsing1999content lmfao please make vulak into a race


If Klaz had agro onto the whole entire train, and stands up long enough for them to run from trips to twins, why were there mobs dropped before the big kite came in? The other fraps shows it better, but at the 1:33 mark on Runyan's fraps you can see mobs that are clearly unagro'd before the train runs down trips ramp.

[Samoht]

If Klaz had agro onto the whole entire train, and stands up long enough for them to run from trips to twins, why were there mobs dropped before the big kite came in? The other fraps shows it better, but at the 1:33 mark on Runyan's fraps you can see mobs that are clearly unagro'd before the train runs down trips ramp.

My guess is that Klaz was FD but his aggro didn't clear. When the KRIOT player(s) with aggro brought the train up, it broke Klaz's FD and then they went for him after the KRIOT player(s) died.

Runyan's assist clearly targets someone that isn't Klaz. Twice. My guess is that that's who had the aggro, and once they boxed or died or whatever the mobs went for Darmai who had the highest GUID and then Klaz after killing the rest of the KRIOT who either already had aggro or were targeted before FD broke.

[Gustoo]

Sad stories guys. Sorry to hear about all the sad things happening. Wishing things were better for you all.

[tacomagradd]

My guess is that Klaz was FD but his aggro didn't clear.

You are so close to the answer. Keep searching. It is out there... somewhere... Perhaps right in front of you... Where you've been looking this whole time... Looking, but not seeing...

[Samoht]

You are so close to the answer. Keep searching. It is out there... somewhere... Perhaps right in front of you... Where you've been looking this whole time... Looking, but not seeing...

Oh, god, juicebox thinks he's talking over me! What am I going to do?!

This attitude is exactly why you get shit on in the UN. People try to explain to you how the game works but you're too goddamned stupid to listen. I don't even understand why anybody would let you speak for them. Makes me wonder how incompetent they could be if you're the best representative they've got.

[Bache]

I'd rather not raid at all than raid with Vanquish.

+1

I will never be in a guild led by a guy who got banned for logging on an adverse guild's toon in the sole purpose of training that guild.

Retarded mentality at its best.
You guys can be #1 but your leadership is still a bunch of friggin hairy sweaty smelly sore assholes.

[Gatordash]

You are so close to the answer. Keep searching. It is out there... somewhere... Perhaps right in front of you... Where you've been looking this whole time... Looking, but not seeing...

So you are 100% sure its a "blatant intentional train" from Klaz by standing up, even though no one saw him stand up, the assists are all on Riot members, and he is FD on the fraps until after an AE goes on when he stands up to try and gate.

[tacomagradd]

Eh, it is really hard to prove "intention." Even the best video couldn't prove a person's intent, unless it had audio of them confessing it was intentional. Pretty suspect though, even if it wasn't intentional. Space thinks it was on purpose, I don't care as much if he meant to do it or not - he obviously had agro, stood up, trained & fd'd again. The whole video mashup will be in the petition for GMs to decide.

I would like folks to sit down and /assist a flurry mob when it comes into camp at Aary and see what happens. Does it go to the puller, or the person sitting? The /assist can sometimes prove who is pulling a train, but it is just one factor of many to consider. If a person trains you and feigns, they're not going to be on the /assist, unless you type it before they feign. If you press "enter" after they feign, you can /assist as many times as you want, you're not going to get the guilty party.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

-Upton Sinclair

[Samoht]

You do realize that getting hit by an AE while you're FD makes you stand up, right?

Right?!

[titanshub]

My guess is that Klaz was FD but his aggro didn't clear. When the KRIOT player(s) with aggro brought the train up, it broke Klaz's FD and then they went for him after the KRIOT player(s) died.

Runyan's assist clearly targets someone that isn't Klaz. Twice. My guess is that that's who had the aggro, and once they boxed or died or whatever the mobs went for Darmai who had the highest GUID and then Klaz after killing the rest of the KRIOT who either already had aggro or were targeted before FD broke.

Its amazing that you are still in here talking about something you have not bothered to actually look at. For the last time, the train was clearly and provably dropped prior to the assist going off.

https://i.imgur.com/t56qcWI.png

You can also show that Klaz was casting FD exactly 1.5 seconds prior to those two drakes charging the raid. Later when Klaz stands up all the drakes start moving towards him on the first frame of his stand animation proving he is higher than anyone else on the aggro table. Explain why your guild member was casting FD exactly as the train aggro'ed on the raid. Explain why your guild member was the highest person on the aggro table when he stands up from that FD. Explain why all the new drakes coming into camp give off new piercing roar/charges when he dies.

I get that people may not have looked as in depth as I have or read extensively and understood the evidence brought forward in this thread. However, ignoring all the evidence brought up here and continuing with conjecture about how we probably just trained ourselves is dishonest. Personally, when I started to go through this stuff I would have loved to be able to clear Klaz's name but the facts show very clearly what happened here.

[Samoht]

You can also show that Klaz was casting FD exactly 1.5 seconds prior to those two drakes charging the raid.

No, no you can't. There's no evidence of this. It's purely.. what do you call it.. conjecture!

You're assuming what he cast, and you know what happens when you assume, right?

[zati]

People try to explain to you how the game works but you're too goddamned stupid to listen.

[titanshub]

No, no you can't. There's no evidence of this. It's purely.. what do you call it.. conjecture!

You're assuming what he cast, and you know what happens when you assume, right?

Do you even read the stuff we have written or do you just not bother because it doesn't align with your narrative? There is an explanation of how this can be done buried in this thread but if you don't want to bother you can wait for the petition.

Also you are incorrect about AOE making you stand up from an FD.

[Samoht]

Do you even read the stuff we have written or do you just not bother because it doesn't align with your narrative? There is an explanation of how this can be done buried in this thread but if you don't want to bother you can wait for the petition.

There you ago again making claims without anything to back it up.

When you have evidence that supports your claim, provide it. Nobody gives a shit if you allude to something that doesn't exist.

[titanshub]

There you ago again making claims without anything to back it up.

When you have evidence that supports your claim, provide it. Nobody gives a shit if you allude to something that doesn't exist.

I told you where it can be found. Go back and try to read and understand the arguments this time. Stop trying to make counter claims and deflect from the fact that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Samoht]

Nobody is deflecting here but you. You claim there's evidence, provide it. Otherwise, you don't have evidence.

[Grumph]

Friends.

The defining element of confirmation bias.

Is.

You can’t know when your falling for it yourself.


Keep that in mind - not to dissuade you of your conclusions - but a reason to stay humble about what you know is right.

And also have compassion.

That other person who thinks they’re right? They can’t see their own blindness.

A little grace goes a long way fam!

[titanshub]

Nobody is deflecting here but you. You claim there's evidence, provide it. Otherwise, you don't have evidence.

I'm not going to do the work for you. Go do it yourself or wait for the petition before you call me a liar.

[Hideousclaw]

You guys can be #1 but your leadership is still a bunch of friggin hairy sweaty smelly sore assholes.

It cuts deep

[Samoht]

I'm not going to do the work for you. Go do it yourself or wait for the petition before you call me a liar.

ROFL

I fail to see why it's my responsibility to provide the evidence to support your claim.

I guess I understand why juicebox is your representative after all.

[zati]

People try to explain to you how the game works but you're too goddamned stupid to listen.

Some good irony here. Probably should put Denial next to your sig too.

[Hotel]

It cuts deep

lmao i saw this post and was like sadge, true

[sydbarrett25]

Oh, god, juicebox thinks he's talking over me! What am I going to do?!

This attitude is exactly why you get shit on in the UN. People try to explain to you how the game works but you're too goddamned stupid to listen. I don't even understand why anybody would let you speak for them. Makes me wonder how incompetent they could be if you're the best representative they've got.

You sir have earned yourself a block. There is no way you dont understand game mechanics. Maybe you dont play very much. Anyways good luck on whatever it is that you do

[starkind]

Tbh. I didn't bother reading anything in this thread.

But..


Was this thread necessary?
Would it matter if either side was just straight up deleted? (Let me answer this one, the server probably would be better)
What kind of Orc are you? Or want to be?

[Ennewi]

Samoht Gnitbuod

[condap99]

I'm not going to watch and rewatch fraps over a train that didn't prevent an attempt. Riot/Kittens had an attempt, and they shit the bed. R/K could have won Vulak right then and there. They were in control of their own destiny. And they wiped faster than any vulak I can recall.

Also............

Why are we not racing for vulak with lockouts? LMAO. I can't believe people would rather deal with shit like this every single time there is a competitive Vulak... because Hurrrrr MaRiO KaRt???

Yeah racing wasn't classic. Neither was having two forces with 100 members each squaring off for a rooted Vulak every week. How many man hours have been spent on this petition by all three guilds + the forums looking at this shit... when it could have been settled in a 3 minute race?

This. Why you people want to compete after cothing up 100 people, stand on each others nuts, then play this fraps dissection lawyerquesting game is beyond me. Race, lock out, and move on.

[Tilien]

Tbh. I didn't bother reading anything in this thread.
What kind of Orc are you? Or want to be?
[/LIST]

I'd be a dervish cutthroat orc. The dervish cutthroats always seemed to diverse and welcoming of all walks of life.

[wrighter00]

Same thing. Shut up Rainwarden blah blah blah. If this were a pay to play server, rules would be followed or it would be a **** all of bans. You can't have paying players leave a server... and to the points made about smaller guilds, yes, they left multiple times. People were once told that small guilds couldn't do stuff a long time ago, and it wasn't true then. Bottom line is, you're wasting people's time.

Vanquish (not just them) doesn't need someone watching Riot (other guilds). They need someone who knows FD mechanics or who knows better than to put other players in danger. It's not a hard concept. Winning in this climate is equal to lining up on a football line, pulling out a gun, shooting the opposing line men, and sacking the QB. That's why rules exist.

If they don't, people log on bots to train each other and cause direct death. Which is fine... on WoW PvP battlefields where they have online PvP tournaments, people actually pay to play it, and they purposely kill each other.

[Boptop]

its been a hard year tho

[Nexii]

I'm not going to watch and rewatch fraps over a train that didn't prevent an attempt. Riot/Kittens had an attempt, and they shit the bed. R/K could have won Vulak right then and there. They were in control of their own destiny. And they wiped faster than any vulak I can recall.



This. Why you people want to compete after cothing up 100 people, stand on each others nuts, then play this fraps dissection lawyerquesting game is beyond me. Race, lock out, and move on.

The server rule is that if you train a guild you concede. You don't contest until they rush an engage.

[wrighter00]

its been a hard year tho

My year's been great! I didn't even die to that train. Furor and I used to hide from ToV trains out of LoS in the same spots in Riot. At some point I missed whatever made him butt hurt enough to eventually log in bots and train people out of spite. Probably because I come and go. I'd honestly have hoped he'd call out a bunk necro in a bad spot, but maybe he's losing his touch. He should take a break, too.

[Loke]

The server rule is that if you train a guild you concede. You don't contest until they rush an engage.

Riot has in a number of instances argued that allowing the other guild to recover and get a shot at the mob is adequate compensation... Although you guys only seen to make that argument when you're the one who caused the train. In this instance, we didn't, and still don't have conclusive evidence Klaz caused the train, so we did not concede. Riot was able to recover and engage Vulak, and if you rushedthat is on you because we didn't even engage it until like 30 mins after your wipe. The train, regardless of who caused it, did not effect the outcome of who killed Vulak. You guys are just using it as an excuse to try to get free Vulaks because you can't win them competitively. Sad.

[NotCaros]

My year's been great! I didn't even die to that train. Furor and I used to hide from ToV trains out of LoS in the same spots in Riot. At some point I missed whatever made him butt hurt enough to eventually log in bots and train people out of spite. Probably because I come and go. I'd honestly have hoped he'd call out a bunk necro in a bad spot, but maybe he's losing his touch. He should take a break, too.

Lostalker was a reaction to having a live engage on Koi (by Vanq) get trained (by Riot).

Which, if proven to be the case, would clearly be worthy of concession.


As opposed to the recent Vulak where sufficient proof for a train hasn’t been provided, and the agro in question didn’t even occur during a live engage.

Again. No live attempt was ruined by y’all training yourselves and trying to blame Klaz.

What’s next? Assume in his heart that he agreed to delete his character too?

“Herp derp time to honor your bet Klaz!”

[wrighter00]

Riot has in a number of instances argued that allowing the other guild to recover and get a shot at the mob is adequate compensation... Although you guys only seen to make that argument when you're the one who caused the train. In this instance, we didn't, and still don't have conclusive evidence Klaz caused the train, so we did not concede. Riot was able to recover and engage Vulak, and if you rushedthat is on you because we didn't even engage it until like 30 mins after your wipe. The train, regardless of who caused it, did not effect the outcome of who killed Vulak. You guys are just using it as an excuse to try to get free Vulaks because you can't win them competitively. Sad.

Blah blah blah... You guys couldn't win competitive Dozekars because of one measly ToV trash add that you couldn't off tank. Even with our server hero Detoxx at the helm, leader of champions. Sad

I'm ready to take bets on when this will end. We should just wager targets at this point. Class wars for best players, tiered. More completed tasks via that class are the amount you can wager. :p

[Nexii]

Riot has in a number of instances argued that allowing the other guild to recover and get a shot at the mob is adequate compensation... Although you guys only seen to make that argument when you're the one who caused the train. In this instance, we didn't, and still don't have conclusive evidence Klaz caused the train, so we did not concede. Riot was able to recover and engage Vulak, and if you rushedthat is on you because we didn't even engage it until like 30 mins after your wipe. The train, regardless of who caused it, did not effect the outcome of who killed Vulak. You guys are just using it as an excuse to try to get free Vulaks because you can't win them competitively. Sad.

Except Riot wasn't afforded a free shot. We just happened to recover faster.

Though I agree, the whole 'free shot' thing being a thing is stupid. It's not a concession per the rules

[ArbiterBlixen]

So there's no conclusive evidence of a train? Sounds more like a crying wolf situation.

[tacomagradd]

So there's no conclusive evidence of a train? Sounds more like a crying wolf situation.

Vanq making new accounts to deny this one. Next level self delusion. lol.

Watch the video, or read the post history.

The truth is out there.

*Alien Music Plays*

[aztec42321]

I love how they are all pretending like they have no idea what sit aggro is. Why do you think raids order everyone to STAND when bringing something like Vindi or a flurry into camp? Because those mobs will jump sitting players BEFORE those that are highest on their aggro list. Players like those that are sitting attempting to camp out (again) when their raid comms are telling everyone that a certain necro has dragged a train into camp.

But please, keep talking down to us acting like we don't understand game mechanics...

[remen]

Do you even read the stuff we have written or do you just not bother because it doesn't align with your narrative? There is an explanation of how this can be done buried in this thread but if you don't want to bother you can wait for the petition.

Also you are incorrect about AOE making you stand up from an FD.

The bolded statement alone demonstrates that you don't have even a basic understand of feign death mechanics. If you are hit by an AoE while FD, it will break your FD 100% of the time.

That being said, I've read your "explanation" of how this could have happened in a way that fits your narrative of being trained. An explanation of a possibility is far from a fact. There are other (more likely) explanations of how you all trained yourselves.

At 1:51 of that video you can see at least 4 flurries attack 4 different people. Those four people didn't all pull agro after it all reset. They had the train dropped on them from Klaz, who stood up and feigned it back on top of them. If it was just Hoyi, or just Darmai, or a GUID number issue, then I don't see the mobs having 4 different targets.

I don't have any confidence that you are convincible, yet here I am.

In this post, your are either lying intentionally or just oblivious. Show me any fraps in which he stands up prior to the train coming in. Every angle I've seen shows him run up and FD well before the train comes in. The 3 way mobs reset, and he doesn't stand until after the train comes in and breaks his FD.

he obviously had agro, stood up, trained & fd'd again. The whole video mashup will be in the petition for GMs to decide.

I would like folks to sit down and /assist a flurry mob when it comes into camp at Aary and see what happens. Does it go to the puller, or the person sitting?

Again, not obvious that he had agro, stood up, and trained. It's actually obvious that he didn't because you don't see that anywhere in any of the videos.

It goes to the puller.

Vanq making new accounts to deny this one. Next level self delusion. lol.

Watch the video, or read the post history.

The truth is out there.


The truth is right here, you just don't want to see it. You would rather play the victim and make excuses. Instead of learning from your raid's failure and improving, you choose to blame others. This is why you guys never get better, and get beat week after week.

[remen]

I love how they are all pretending like they have no idea what sit aggro is. Why do you think raids order everyone to STAND when bringing something like Vindi or a flurry into camp? Because those mobs will jump sitting players BEFORE those that are highest on their aggro list. Players like those that are sitting attempting to camp out (again) when their raid comms are telling everyone that a certain necro has dragged a train into camp.

But please, keep talking down to us acting like we don't understand game mechanics...

People saying stuff like:

"Also you are incorrect about AOE making you stand up from an FD."

Are why we are explaining game mechanics in our posts. Some of your raid members don't have a basic understanding. A lot do, but for those that do not, simple explanations are apparently required.

[Nutsax]

People saying stuff like:

"Also you are incorrect about AOE making you stand up from an FD."

Are why we are explaining game mechanics in our posts. Some of your raid members don't have a basic understanding. A lot do, but for those that do not, simple explanations are apparently required.

Oh good, you give simple explanations, please give a simple explanation to each of the following:
1.Why did Klaz run past a competing guild and fd?
2.Why didn't Klaz /q when he realized he ran past an entire raid force and flopped?
3.Why was Klaz attacked immediately after all the sitting people?
4.Why were new piercing roars sent immediately after Klaz dies?

Thank you in advance for your response to these 4 questions.

[remen]

Provide an alternate explanation that fits with known game mechanics and the evidence or just admit it and let's move on.

Darmai is a 60 chanter who just cycled.

A member of your raid was at some point within social range of the train / vulak guards. He ran back into your camp and never cycled. After our kiters died, he was the only one left on the agro table so they came for him.

I don't know if this is what happened, but it is certainly a plausible and simpler explanation, and fits what is seen on the videos much better than your guys convoluted theory, that you are pushing as fact.

Can you show where Darmai is seen cycling? I don't see it in any of the many fraps posted.

For the last time, the train was clearly and provably dropped prior to the assist going off.

You can also show that Klaz was casting FD exactly 1.5 seconds prior to those two drakes charging the raid. Later when Klaz stands up all the drakes start moving towards him on the first frame of his stand animation proving he is higher than anyone else on the aggro table. Explain why your guild member was casting FD exactly as the train aggro'ed on the raid. Explain why your guild member was the highest person on the aggro table when he stands up from that FD. Explain why all the new drakes coming into camp give off new piercing roar/charges when he dies.


No, it's not clear or provable that your interpretation of what happened is correct. It requires going along with a lot of assumptions

Everything in bold is your interpretation of the videos posted. You can't and don't show that klax is casting FD exactly 1.5 seconds before the drakes charged the raid. In all of the videos and fraps that you guys took, not one person has a shot of him standing up and FDing again. I find that pretty suspect.

Next, you say that when klax stands up the drakes instantly go for him. First, it's not a fact that he stands up, his FD could have been broken by an AoE. Also, it doesn't matter that the mobs then charge him. He could have been the next highest on the aggro table, but even if he was, that is irrelevant because the mobs would have never come into camp if you didn't train yourselves. He also may have been low health after getting hit by the AoE, jumping him to the top of the aggro tables.

Explain why you don't have any video of him standing up and flopping again, as you allege he did. Explain why you haven't proven that no members of your raid had social aggro on the train. Explain why the train skipped over the people sitting nearest to the ramp, and go around the corner to kill specific players there. Explain why the /assist on the train was a member of your raid. Explain why none of the videos posted show the few minutes before the train came in. My suspicion is that would show that players of your raid were within social range of the train, and that many members of your raid did not cycle camp.

[remen]

Oh good, you give simple explanations, please give a simple explanation to each of
the following:

1.Why did Klaz run past a competing guild and fd?

To find a safe place to FD out of range of any AoE, to avoid dying. Or to keep an eye on the status of your raid so he can help us figure out how quickly we need to try and recover. Or to be able to let us know when you are all moving up to engage, so we could possibly try to engage first if we are ready enough.


2.Why didn't Klaz /q when he realized he ran past an entire raid force and flopped?

To be able to give us status updates on your raid.

3.Why was Klaz attacked immediately after all the sitting people?

He was the highest on the agro table prior to feigning death, so once his FD was broken by the AoE of the train you guys brought in, the mobs went for him.

Or he had low health agro, so once his FD was broken by the mobs AoE, he immediately jumped to the top of the agro tables.

4.Why were new piercing roars sent immediately after Klaz dies?

The mobs first killed the dirty members of your raid that caused the train. You can note that the train skipped the closest people who were sitting, and went around the corner and killed four or five people specific people there, before going to Klax. The AoE broke the FD of klax who is still on the agro tables. After they kill him, there are no players left on the agro tables so new messages go out.

Thank you in advance for your response to these 4 questions.

No prob, happy to explain.

[Dugface]

23 pages of absolute fucking bollocks. Keep it going.

[remen]

We needed some raid related drama, this place had gotten so boring and stale!

[Nutsax]

Oh good, you give simple explanations, please give a simple explanation to each of
the following:

1.Why did Klaz run past a competing guild and fd?

To find a safe place to FD out of range of any AoE, to avoid dying. Or to keep an eye on the status of your raid so he can help us figure out how quickly we need to try and recover. Or to be able to let us know when you are all moving up to engage, so we could possibly try to engage first if we are ready enough.


2.Why didn't Klaz /q when he realized he ran past an entire raid force and flopped?

To be able to give us status updates on your raid.

3.Why was Klaz attacked immediately after all the sitting people?

He was the highest on the agro table prior to feigning death, so once his FD was broken by the AoE of the train you guys brought in, the mobs went for him.

Or he had low health agro, so once his FD was broken by the mobs AoE, he immediately jumped to the top of the agro tables.

4.Why were new piercing roars sent immediately after Klaz dies?

The mobs first killed the dirty members of your raid that caused the train. You can note that the train skipped the closest people who were sitting, and went around the corner and killed four or five people specific people there, before going to Klax. The AoE broke the FD of klax who is still on the agro tables. After they kill him, there are no players left on the agro tables so new messages go out.

Thank you in advance for your response to these 4 questions.

No prob, happy to explain.

LOL just LOL.

[sydbarrett25]

The bolded statement alone demonstrates that you don't have even a basic understand of feign death mechanics. If you are hit by an AoE while FD, it will break your FD 100% of the time.

That being said, I've read your "explanation" of how this could have happened in a way that fits your narrative of being trained. An explanation of a possibility is far from a fact. There are other (more likely) explanations of how you all trained yourselves.



In this post, your are either lying intentionally or just oblivious. Show me any fraps in which he stands up prior to the train coming in. Every angle I've seen shows him run up and FD well before the train comes in. The 3 way mobs reset, and he doesn't stand until after the train comes in and breaks his FD.
It doesnt make you stand, it will break your flop though lmao. His comment stands correct


Again, not obvious that he had agro, stood up, and trained. It's actually obvious that he didn't because you don't see that anywhere in any of the videos.

It goes to the puller.



The truth is right here, you just don't want to see it. You would rather play the victim and make excuses. Instead of learning from your raid's failure and improving, you choose to blame others. This is why you guys never get better, and get beat week after week.

[sydbarrett25]

Oops quote didnt work, it doesnt make you stand but it breaks your flop lmao. His comment stands correct

[Samoht]

Are KRIOT players in this thread seriously insisting that AEs don't break monk FD?

Is there really such a disparaging skill gap between KRIOT and Vanquish?

[Allishia]

Are KRIOT players in this thread seriously insisting that AEs don't break monk FD?

Is there really such a disparaging skill gap between KRIOT and Vanquish?

I think he just meant that it doesn't make you actually stand up, but it does break the FD...so then you have to stand up to re FD.../nod

[Samoht]

Okay, so then they're arguing semantics because they have no actual argument against the facts. Got it.

[Nutsax]

Okay, so then they're arguing semantics because they have no actual argument against the facts. Got it.

Not semantics, obviously you don't know how FD works.

[Hideousclaw]

Oops quote didnt work, it doesnt make you stand but it breaks your flop lmao. His comment stands correct

There has been countless times where I have been flopped, been casted on/hit, and I pop up and do that moonwalk walk in place stand while still being “FD”

[Allishia]

There has been countless times where I have been flopped, been casted on/hit, and I pop up and do that moonwalk walk in place stand while still being “FD”

Ya but you still have to stand before you can recast FD

[Samoht]

Yall are still arguing details of the semantics, jesus christ.

AEs break FD.

Klaz gets hit by AE trained on him by KRIOT members, he stands up to try casting again, mobs kill him.

That's not evidence that Klaz trained you. Seems more like KRIOT trained Klaz.

I demand both guilds concede the next Vulak as reparations for training Vanquish on their engage.

[xdrcfrx]

vanquish: trains competition
vanquish: "no u"
vanquish: why don't people like us?

keep up the good work, chums!

[Nexii]

Lol the mere optics of bringing a FD class all the way up to our camp at doubles during a wipe are really bad. Maybe the GMs will look deeper but I don't think this one will go Vanquish's way.

[Gatordash]

This shit has been going on for years. Get proof of the train. If the shoe was on the other foot Riot wouldn't be conceding either. Runyan has 2 assist macro's and its on Riot, kellyanne, rliael, and makfist are FD at the ledge, none of them got an assist on Klaz?

You can't have your "proof" showing the guild debating on whether to cycle camp, then the train comes which has assists on riot, the train wipes out half of riot, then hits Klaz as he stands up to try and gate... because that looks a lot like Riot could have trained themselves.

[Allishia]

I dunno, watching that video, soon as klaz FD breaks everything runs toward him instantly, either he had agro or maybe low HP agro from aoes for them to skip everyone else and run straight at klaz :p

[Samoht]

I dunno, watching that video, soon as klaz FD breaks everything runs toward him instantly, either he had agro or maybe low HP agro from aoes for them to skip everyone else and run straight at klaz :p

So from your point of view, the KRIOT train did break his FD.

KRIOT trained Vanquish on their engage.

You must concede.

[Gatordash]

I dunno, watching that video, soon as klaz FD breaks everything runs toward him instantly, either he had agro or maybe low HP agro from aoes for them to skip everyone else and run straight at klaz :p

How do you know he caused the train though?

[Allishia]

How do you know he caused the train though?

Cause you can clearly see him casting FD as the train runs up and agro's people, then his FD gets broke by aoe and he died /nod

[Samoht]

Cause you can clearly see him casting FD as the train runs up and agro's people, then his FD gets broke by aoe and he died /nod

If he was FD, the train wasn't on him when it came up the ramp. The assist was on KRIOT raiders, and KRIOT raiders died before Klaz.

KRIOT trained Klaz during a Vanquish engage. You must concede the next Vulak.

[Gatordash]

Cause you can clearly see him casting FD as the train runs up
:confused:

[Graahle]

https://i.imgur.com/ZV0SGqs.png

[Nutsax]

If he was FD, the train wasn't on him when it came up the ramp. The assist was on KRIOT raiders, and KRIOT raiders died before Klaz.

KRIOT trained Klaz during a Vanquish engage. You must concede the next Vulak.

I see you still don't understand FD mechanics.