Archery Diagnosed!!!

[Awsten_Tx]

I have other post discussing primary damage bonus being factored into archery damage, thats not the point being made here.

I am fairly certain I have gotten to the bottom of archery damage being "throttled" on P99.

For history sake, I distinctly remember Ranger Bow DPS coming online and becoming viable in Live during velious era.

However that is just not the case here on P99. Despite having BIS Bows, with double damage bonus a ranger will struggle to maintain DPS in the 40's.

So having said all that I set out to ascertain the problem with archery.

My first theory was that bows were pulling not just the primary damage bonus, but also the primary damage, but that just wasnt the case. The numbers did not line up and the parses did not indicate this.

Then I discovered archery had a higher miss rate in addition to its throttle damage.

Then it dawn on me to take off all weapons except a bow and as simple as it sounds, it hit me in the face.

Archery damage is not using a skill check on each round on archery. So despite having 240 archery skill, my attack, with only a bow, is a mere 948. When I put a 2 hand slasher on in primary it jumps to 1435.

See screenshots below, first is no weapon;
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kjzh3iuHRpwkBqrXG2SdVGEnk_Aj0HDi/view?usp=sharing
And now second is with my 2 hand slasher on;
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KoALCjZvKs2SbLeY6w7V0TctpqUeB9bd/view?usp=sharing

This explains why a ranger with a War bow of Rallos Zek with 8 damage arrows (51 damage total) will hit a standard shot of around 130 damage max (no bonus), but when equipping a 45 damage 2 hand slasher such as primal axe or claidmore. Will hit for around 280 damage.

I suspect the bug has something to do with the game not recognizing the ranger slot as a weapon. I am not familiar with the code or how its written but this is consistent with other players seeing a melee weapon firing arrows in lieu of a bow.

[Jimjam]

Its calculating displayed attack off hand to hand skill when just fist/non weapon primary.

Your screen shots are missing.

[Awsten_Tx]

Damn thanks for heads up... Wonder why they didn't pull in.

Also thats kind of my point, with the bow equipped and being used, the paper doll should be indicating my attack with archery skill. But it does not.

All evidence points to my conclusion stated above.

[Jimjam]

Why do you think the paperdoll should calculate your displayed attack off archery?

[Awsten_Tx]

Because a bow is equipped in my hand. Archery is a skill I have...

[Jimjam]

That would make sense, but assumes the original client devs weren’t silly billies and programmed the UI to display based on what is held visually instead of what is in the primary slot.

Just because it displays your hand to hand attack doesn’t mean that is what is being used for archery (but is a worthy line of investigation, especially as primary hand damage bonus is being misused for archery!)

[Awsten_Tx]

So what I am getting ready to do is test the damage difference between BFG in primary slot, and BFG in range slot. I am willing to bed there is going to be a noticable difference in the damage range between the two.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Does anyone have any parses for Windstriker they can share? Including highest crit?

Because these guys are talking about doing 902 dmg with Windstriker, double damage non-rooted, with Trueshot /disc (well, against a player), and the guy isn't even level 60 or maxed archery yet, in era. Interested to know if that compares to archery damage here:

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#m98660925722555

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#m98756911373540

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#m9917976572967

[YendorLootmonkey]

So what I am getting ready to do is test the damage difference between BFG in primary slot, and BFG in range slot. I am willing to bed there is going to be a noticable difference in the damage range between the two.


Grab like a 2/40 Orc Pawn Pick and a 25/40 Wurmslayer, and test each in your primary. ATK should be about the same (Wurmslayer has +5 STR so it'll be slightly higher), and see if you notice a difference in the damage distribution. If not, that rules out primary hand weapon damage at least, right?

[Awsten_Tx]

Not sure what that would accomplish. My theory is that the bug causijg primary hand damage bonus, is also causing the algorithm that checks weapon skill to miss archery skill, thus throttling the damage from the range slot.

The reason i want to test BFG in primy, versus secondary, is its the 1 weapon that can be used in both.

[Encroaching Death]

I've heard that Bow damage is also determined by STR, and not by DEX.

Isn't it supposed to be DEX?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Not sure what that would accomplish. My theory is that the bug causijg primary hand damage bonus, is also causing the algorithm that checks weapon skill to miss archery skill, thus throttling the damage from the range slot.

The reason i want to test BFG in primy, versus secondary, is its the 1 weapon that can be used in both.

Because if there is a big difference, both are 1HS weapons so your weapon skill would be the same and you can rule out weapon skill as the determining factor.

It's just a process of narrowing down the source of the archery damage one thing at a time.

I am trying to get the mob we all used on Live to parse archery damage because he was perma-rooted with high regen to also be perma-rooted here. Currently he is not. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414909

[Awsten_Tx]

I dont think you are following.

When you put a bow in your range slot, with no weapons equiped your attack is really low.

What I suspect is that there is some sort of bug where archery skill itself isnt factored whent he range slot is utilized.

So what I am going to do tomorrow on the Paineel guards (high HP low level mobs) is do a parse test with BFG in primary, and then in Ranged.

If my theory is true, the bfg will perform better when used from primary, than from ranged.

[Botten]

I would highly suggest reading through this thread to its entirety.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=374659

And no it isn't all about PvP archery it applies to blue too. But not much because the low damage still isn't worth it.

In essence, it is the delay on the main hand weapon.

and Weighted Ax on Troll or Ogre or Barbarian - warrior will give you the exaggerated damage change you are experiencing.

The best you can try for is the Earthshaker as a ranger.

Luclin release date was December 4, 2001
And the indication from the posts is archery damage output on live, even before Luclin - was still not worth it...... BUT was a lot more than currently on P99.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#comments

P99 devs are aware of the issue and will probably fix it all servers for the red community. But you can bet the numbers seen in those posts on Allakazam won't be seen on P99... and I can't blame the Devs for not dwelling this.

Why work on something that was never really applicable until Luclin.

[Awsten_Tx]

We are aware of the primary hand damage bonus, thats been posted in other forums and not the topic of this discussion.

[Botten]

We are aware of the primary hand damage bonus, thats been posted in other forums and not the topic of this discussion.

Ok if testing Archery misses. Use an Ice Burrower. I once saw 11 misses in a row while bow kiting it.

[Awsten_Tx]

OK tested Damage this morning and it proved my theory wrong, Damage between BFG in primary versus ranged was identical.

Therefore that it is not the issue in terms of explaining why archery damage is so abysmal.

It is however apparent that it is throttled.

As an example the Min, Average and Max hit for 23 damage (BFG + Summoned Arrows) on a green con paineel guard was 2, 31.14, and 52 respectively.

This does not include the 42 damage bonus from delay.

So essentially, not only is Archery damage "nerfed" on P99 since double damage, NOR trueshot affect our bonus (which technically doesnt exist unless we bug it with a slow primary 2 hander), but the base archery damage itself is severly throttled for reasons, I cannot seem to diagnose.

As the state of the server stands right now. IF I had someone anchor (non rooted, tanked) that same greeen con paineel guard, using the War Bow of Rallos Zek, I would of done 19,834 damage with 140 shots over the course of 319 seconds, for around 62.2 DPS. That is rather embarassing for a BIS bow, average raid geared ranger. And I am fairly certain the performance on live was far superior.

Rangers, literally face a worst case scenario right now in terms of DPS on P99. We face a slew of artificially rooted raid encounters, in addition to throttled archery base damage, AND bugged bonus damage which is not factored into double damage or trueshot.

While we should be able to decently compete in a non trueshot fashion with bow DPS, we should also be a viable "delete" option with trueshot that just isnt happening.

[feniin]

Trueshot is basically only good for being lazy on CT or meme Vindi DPS. I haven't found a compelling reason to use archery over ToV 1h'ers or 2h'ers. If archery was hitting the way it was on those live logs, you'd see a whole lot more rangers with their bows out. I'm ready to replace my bow with a CT brain since I never use it.

[Botten]

Trueshot is basically only good for being lazy on CT or meme Vindi DPS. I haven't found a compelling reason to use archery over ToV 1h'ers or 2h'ers. If archery was hitting the way it was on those live logs, you'd see a whole lot more rangers with their bows out. I'm ready to replace my bow with a CT brain since I never use it.

As a fellow ranger I feel exactly like you.

But lets be honest this is how it was in Live too until Luclin (even if archery received a slight boost.)

Mages, knights and rangers have their niche but aren't raid core classes.

The classic experience!

[Awsten_Tx]

As a fellow ranger I feel exactly like you.

But lets be honest this is how it was in Live too until Luclin (even if archery received a slight boost.)

Mages, knights and rangers have their niche but aren't raid core classes.

The classic experience!

This isnt really accurate. Even in velious era in 2001 the Windstriker was commonly regarded as best bow in game despite priceless, primals and warbow. This was because those bows werent really around till Luclin because those mobs, oftentimes, werent killed till after SoL came out.

Having said that, it wasnt nearly as bad as it is here. I remember SoL making it so archery wasnt just an "eh" but rather a "holy shit"...

[YendorLootmonkey]

Did the Wayback Machine/Web Archive get any dumps of Sunmoon's original Ranger's Glade site where we posted all the archery parsing results from this era back in the day?

[Awsten_Tx]

I have searched far and wide for any kind of parse documentation, and i cant find squat.

[feniin]

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/tAy9EPnbCNk/m/1lOJ_UmONRAJ

Celt just set a new record -- a single hit of 1025, against Yelinak

I don't think there's any combination of bow+arrow that would get me 1025 against Yeli.

7 Aug 2001
High-damage bows can produce some very impressive critical hits under
Trueshot, with the current record being a shot in the high 900's from an
Efreeti War Bow (wielded by Celt of the Xeb server, IIRC).

High 900s from a 40 damage bow.

[Snaggles]

Big crits dont mean big dps.

The best bow in the game burning good arrows is the Dagarn with a 2h. Problem is it burns arrows quicker than most fights last.

Even an exquisite though is better than AoW bow. With solid arrows and a 2h that 32/36 scales better. That setup on disc is far better than most decent melee weapon setups and you can dodge some nasty aoe's like Zlexak.

Archery dps isnt great, but its situationally handy. Rangers before AA's weren't snipe gods. Sorry I remember smoking them with my rogue a lot.

I'd love to see you find a way to bump up bow dps...sure, why not!? I just dont think it's a bug, or broken, or pointless.

[Awsten_Tx]

Big crits dont mean big dps.

The best bow in the game burning good arrows is the Dagarn with a 2h. Problem is it burns arrows quicker than most fights last.

Even an exquisite though is better than AoW bow. With solid arrows and a 2h that 32/36 scales better. That setup on disc is far better than most decent melee weapon setups and you can dodge some nasty aoe's like Zlexak.

Archery dps isnt great, but its situationally handy. Rangers before AA's weren't snipe gods. Sorry I remember smoking them with my rogue a lot.

I'd love to see you find a way to bump up bow dps...sure, why not!? I just dont think it's a bug, or broken, or pointless.
I do not believe you have read any of the thread...

[baakss]

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/tAy9EPnbCNk/m/1lOJ_UmONRAJ



I don't think there's any combination of bow+arrow that would get me 1025 against Yeli.



High 900s from a 40 damage bow.

Tbh this is more interesting as a bug that archery should be doing double damage shots to rooted dragons.

[Awsten_Tx]

Tbh this is more interesting as a bug that archery should be doing double damage shots to rooted dragons.

I have brought this up, its not necessarily a bug, as much as its an unintended nerf ro rangers.

The devs dont like zone line pull metas so they perma rooted many major encounters.

I have no problem with this but it does result in a major nerf to ranger performance.

[Snaggles]

I do not believe you have read any of the thread...


OK tested Damage this morning and it proved my theory wrong, Damage between BFG in primary versus ranged was identical.

Kudos

Therefore that it is not the issue in terms of explaining why archery damage is so abysmal.

It is however apparent that it is throttled.

As an example the Min, Average and Max hit for 23 damage (BFG + Summoned Arrows) on a green con paineel guard was 2, 31.14, and 52 respectively.

This does not include the 42 damage bonus from delay.

But the damage bonus for a melee swing is 11 at 60. It's only 42 if you have a 49 delay 2h equipped and use it as a bow.

So essentially, not only is Archery damage "nerfed" on P99 since double damage, NOR trueshot affect our bonus (which technically doesnt exist unless we bug it with a slow primary 2 hander), but the base archery damage itself is severly throttled for reasons, I cannot seem to diagnose.

As the state of the server stands right now. IF I had someone anchor (non rooted, tanked) that same greeen con paineel guard, using the War Bow of Rallos Zek, I would of done 19,834 damage with 140 shots over the course of 319 seconds, for around 62.2 DPS. That is rather embarassing for a BIS bow, average raid geared ranger. And I am fairly certain the performance on live was far superior.

AOW bow is not BiS. It isnt the best dps, has an aggro proc, and isnt even 200 range

Rangers, literally face a worst case scenario right now in terms of DPS on P99. We face a slew of artificially rooted raid encounters, in addition to throttled archery base damage, AND bugged bonus damage which is not factored into double damage or trueshot.

Assuming you have a good bow kit or BFG, not everyone does. I do...and agree, unroot dragons.

While we should be able to decently compete in a non trueshot fashion with bow DPS, we should also be a viable "delete" option with trueshot that just isnt happening.

Non disc dps wasnt a thing until AA's. I remember it from live. No rangers were plunking lol. I do on p99 now on certain fights like Zlexak. It's easier, about the same dps, and I can hit one button over and over instead of running in/out every 8 seconds.




On short fights on p99 with the BFG it keeps up with nearly BiS monk and rogue weapons. BoW dps is really good too.

As mentioned, great if you can get this thing changed. I dont think it's broken. BOW dps was crap during velious. If it was even a bit better (off disc) than melee we would have seen more people plunking.

I wish I could go back in time and confirm my recollections. Plus tell my former self all sorts of stuff to gamble on to completely change the future.

[feniin]

On short fights on p99 with the BFG it keeps up with nearly BiS monk and rogue weapons. BoW dps is really good too.

As mentioned, great if you can get this thing changed. I dont think it's broken. BOW dps was crap during velious. If it was even a bit better (off disc) than melee we would have seen more people plunking.

I wish I could go back in time and confirm my recollections. Plus tell my former self all sorts of stuff to gamble on to completely change the future.

If rangers in 2001 were getting 1000+ damage crits on Yelinak (a rooted dragon), that means there is an issue with bow damage on rooted dragons on p99 at the very least.

[Snaggles]

If rangers in 2001 were getting 1000+ damage crits on Yelinak (a rooted dragon), that means there is an issue with bow damage on rooted dragons on p99 at the very least.

Sure, if that is true. People were lying on the internet back in 2001 :)

It's entirely possible the rooted dynamic didnt play on live like it did here. I'm definitely not against a bit more research. I'm not a ranger hater, I have one with all the toys.

I dont remember many rangers on live raiding during this era and the one that did were meleeing. It's also possible they just were dumb but usually people figure this stuff out if there is a clear imbalance. Not just one person.

[Awsten_Tx]

I do not think Yelinak was rooted on live, not sure any raid encounters were.

People have posted some numbers that are clearly better than P99.

As I stated above in the thread, many of the best bows didnt really exist in this era on live. Primals and War bows were primarily picked up and utilized in SoL era.

And yes if the mechanics were functioning correctly, IE bow delay dictates bonus, then War Bow is BiS. However because of the broken/bugged mechanics of P99, its not.

[Awsten_Tx]

AOW bow is not BiS. It isnt the best dps, has an aggro proc, and isnt even 200 range

It 100% is, this was the bow to get prior to SoL bows on Live.

[Gustoo]

Archery wasn’t very good till AAs

Here with the messed damage calc it’s probably more powerful than it was on live except on live the range worked correctly and I never missed. With long range bows and arrows I could shoot from past the clip plane. I fletched all my arrows and bow kited up to level 50 and dps was laughably bad but I was a coward and liked to stay full HP for pvp when it occurred so I did a lot of bow kiting.

So I remember the lack of missed and the functional long range but never noted the damage output because it sucked. Obviously level 60 with disc and better bows is better but no where near a real weapon.

[feniin]

I do not think Yelinak was rooted on live, not sure any raid encounters were.

People have posted some numbers that are clearly better than P99.

As I stated above in the thread, many of the best bows didnt really exist in this era on live. Primals and War bows were primarily picked up and utilized in SoL era.

And yes if the mechanics were functioning correctly, IE bow delay dictates bonus, then War Bow is BiS. However because of the broken/bugged mechanics of P99, its not.

Yeli was rooted on live, in-era and currently.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5597&p=3#m99517912150296 mentions it

[Awsten_Tx]

Yeli was rooted on live, in-era and currently.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5597&p=3#m99517912150296 mentions it

Well if thats true, then my case is open and shut. That means that natural shot was around 500.

Rangers arent hitting for 500 on P99 on rooted target with the current mechanics.

[Awsten_Tx]

I am kind of curious if my original theory, that P99 camage calculation, isnt pulling archery skill. And we just have no way to test it.

[Snaggles]

Rangers arent hitting for 500 on P99 on rooted target with the current mechanics.

Oh it’s possible. Just not practical.

I’ll bow out. Hope you do get the damage table tweaked for us.

[Awsten_Tx]

Oh it’s possible. Just not practical.

I’ll bow out. Hope you do get the damage table tweaked for us.

Its not possible. I have fired probably a million arrows. The only time i have broken 500 was on a double damage crit. There is no way a ranger is hitting 500 on a natty damage crit. It just isnt happening.

To hit 1000 Damage on rooted yeli with trueshot meant the natural shot was around 250 and a crit, that then modified by the trueshot up to 1000.

[7thGate]

I believe I have seen a 900+ Trueshot crit with Windstriker, but not 1000+. Also, that needs the double damage bonus from a non-rooted target, which I don't think we get here, so wouldn't apply to Yelinak.

Archery is good for certain fights. It compares better if most of your force is not BIS geared since an Exquisite Vellium bow is like 93% of BIS ranged damage but a cheap melee pairing is not 93% of BIS melee damage. If there are fight mechanics that disrupt DPS that can be avoided by range, and the fight is short enough that Trueshot covers it, it can be top tier DPS.

https://wiki.project1999.com/File:Ranger_bazzt_zzzt.png for example is a Queen Bee parse where the tank died. Melee DPS got disrupted hard by her stupid hitbox and flying around killing people, Ranger DPS was basically unaffected.

Can also be good on Gorenaire, where its a little worse than Wizards but still about as good as a Druid or Zlexak. Not bad on other non-rooted dragons just dodging fear, but not as noticeable as the slow AOE ones. I would assume probably good on Hoshkar and other VP dragons but have no VP experience.

[Jimjam]

Archery is mainly good cos u can do it while bandaging.

[Snaggles]

Its not possible. I have fired probably a million arrows. The only time i have broken 500 was on a double damage crit. There is no way a ranger is hitting 500 on a natty damage crit. It just isnt happening.

To hit 1000 Damage on rooted yeli with trueshot meant the natural shot was around 250 and a crit, that then modified by the trueshot up to 1000.

I'm not trolling, there is a way. You seem to like puzzles and I'm just a guy who doesnt read threads, allegedly.

[Awsten_Tx]

I'm not trolling, there is a way. You seem to like puzzles and I'm just a guy who doesnt read threads, allegedly.

No there isnt, until you can post some objective data to refute it. I will disregard...

[PabloEdvardo]

Then it dawn on me to take off all weapons except a bow and as simple as it sounds, it hit me in the face.


When I put a 2 hand slasher on in primary it jumps to 1435.

It works like this on official TLP, as well. Your ATK rating (and thus base hit rate) is based on the skill of your primary equipped weapon, not on your archery skill.


I suspect the bug has something to do with the game not recognizing the ranger slot as a weapon.

Since it works this way on official TLPs, it's likely not a bug, but by design.

[Awsten_Tx]

It works like this on official TLP, as well. Your ATK rating (and thus base hit rate) is based on the skill of your primary equipped weapon, not on your archery skill.



Since it works this way on official TLPs, it's likely not a bug, but by design.

All of this was already debunked. I tested bfg in mainhand and range slot. Damage was identical. Thats not the issue but there is still something wrong with archery.

[Jimjam]

I'm confused, please clarify:

How is it debunked that the displayed attack is derived from the item (or absence of item) in your primary slot?

[Awsten_Tx]

I'm confused, please clarify:

How is it debunked that the displayed attack is derived from the item (or absence of item) in your primary slot?

My theory that, it was the cause of archery performance on P99, its not the case. Hence why i tested BFG in mainhand versus ranged.

It some other problem.

[Awsten_Tx]

Essentially archery damage is nerfed on P99, whether intentional, or bugged, we dont know. But Rangers were hitting much harder on velious classic live, than they do on P99.

We know that SOME of it is explained by the primary damage bonus bug, but not all of it.