Warriors are useless in 90% of the games content

[ya.dingus]

Don't bother @ me it's true.

Nobody wants them outside of raids unless they're a charity case or desperation case pick for the group.

Every other class combo is better when grouping for a majority of the game.

Warriors live in the timespace of weekly raids, anywhere else, dont bother.

[Ripqozko]

As a tank I agree, with a non shit tier 2h they are decent dps in a group tho.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As a tank I agree, with a non shit tier 2h they are decent dps in a group tho.

Agreed. Warriors can output good DPS, especially if they are berserking.

[Lampolo]

This type of statement from op is only ever made by dps class or dog shit pally/sk or maybe just the naive. Wars are #1 xp tank. Learn how to play you scrubby loser

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This type of statement from op is only ever made by dps class or dog shit pally/sk or maybe just the naive. Wars are #1 xp tank. Learn how to play you scrubby loser

SK's and Paladins are the better XP group tanks.

This is because SK's and Paladins don't have to rely on procs for hate generation, and XP groups don't need Warrior Disc's.

I know you have this strange hypothesis about Warrior pulling, but Warriors factually don't have any secret method of pulling. SK's and Paladins can pull in the same way as your Warrior, if you prefer that method of pulling.

The only time Warriors had a unique pulling method was years ago, when you could sneak pull with halfling Warriors. Sadly sneak pulling was fixed years ago, so this is no longer possible.

[PatChapp]

My warrior does fine in xp groups. I run dps weapons and get one of the casters to root
Is very simple,works fine.

[ya.dingus]

My warrior does fine in xp groups. I run dps weapons and get one of the casters to root
Is very simple,works fine.

Doing fine is not excelling.

Needing meme setups or relying on chance to perform only 70% of the utility others get at their disposal, at will, and thinking you're on par is the highest dosage of copium they legally allow.

[PatChapp]

I do a lot more damage than knight tanks,it makes up for the minor inconvenience.

[Ennewi]

Root
Cleric - Level 9
Paladin - Level 22
Shaman - Level 14
Necromancer - Level 34
Wizard - Level 4
Enchanter - Level 8

Grasping Roots
Ranger - Level 15
Druid - Level 5

Herbalist's Spade
Effect: Paralyzing Earth (Combat, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 49

We're however many years into Velious now. Even monks have root with FoN.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Root
Cleric - Level 9
Paladin - Level 22
Shaman - Level 14
Necromancer - Level 34
Wizard - Level 4
Enchanter - Level 8

Grasping Roots
Ranger - Level 15
Druid - Level 5

Herbalist's Spade
Effect: Paralyzing Earth (Combat, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 49

We're however many years into Velious now. Even monks have root with FoN.

Of course. Warriors can tank in XP groups. I don't think anybody has said they can't. OP is pointing out they aren't as good in this role, which is true. If you could pick any tank in an XP group that doesn't need Warrior discs, you would pick a Paladin or SK over a Warrior.

You can root mobs when you have a Paladin or SK tanking as well. However, Paladin's and SK's can provide snap agro when needed. Warriors cannot.

EDIT: I am not trying to suggest people shouldn't play Warriors in XP groups, or that XP groups shouldn't take Warriors. Warriors simply have weaknesses outside of raiding.

[Ennewi]

Of course. Warriors can tank in XP groups. I don't think anybody has said they can't. OP is pointing out they aren't as good in this role, which is true. If you could pick any tank in an XP group that doesn't need Warrior discs, you would pick a Paladin or SK over a Warrior.

You can root mobs when you have a Paladin or SK tanking as well. However, Paladin's and SK's can provide snap agro when needed. Warriors cannot.

It's just such a cheap and easy fix is all. Long list of classes, most of them more popular than knights, and each can compensate for what the warrior lacks in group content, and from very early levels. Whereas no amount of buffs can really make up for either knight's lack of that all-important disc.

[Lampolo]

Aggro is only a factor if you suck

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's just such a cheap and easy fix is all. Long list of classes, most of them more popular than knights, and each can compensate for what the warrior lacks in group content, and from very early levels. Whereas no amount of buffs can really make up for either knight's lack of that all-important disc.

Agreed. But root breaks happen, and bad pulls occur. That is when a Warrior is at it's weakest, because they cannot do much about it. Paladins and SK's can do much more in these situations.

In the grand scheme of things, leveling a Warrior is generally more productive over an SK or Paladin if you plan on raiding. You are correct on that point. But not everybody builds their characters for raid tanking.

Unless you are leveling in a static group, people aren't going to prefer a Warrior in an XP group because they have better raid potential. They will prefer an SK or Paladin. Again, not saying people should avoid Warriors as XP group tanks. I don't like stigmatizing classes, and they can tank.

[loramin]

Of course. Warriors can tank in XP groups. I don't think anybody has said they can't. OP is pointing out they aren't as good in this role, which is true. If you could pick any tank in an XP group that doesn't need Warrior discs, you would pick a Paladin or SK over a Warrior.

You can root mobs when you have a Paladin or SK tanking as well. However, Paladin's and SK's can provide snap agro when needed. Warriors cannot.

EDIT: I am not trying to suggest people shouldn't play Warriors in XP groups, or that XP groups shouldn't take Warriors. Warriors simply have weaknesses outside of raiding.

You seem to have completely ignored:

I do a lot more damage than knight tanks,it makes up for the minor inconvenience.

Now, I personally don't know how much better your average warrior's DPS is compared to your average Paladins or Shadow Knights. It may be an insignificant amount.

But, I'm at least curious to see some data on it, because if Warriors offer significantly more DPS, that means faster killing, which means faster XP ... which would mean they're superior in many groups (ie. any group where "root agro" is sufficient).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You seem to have completely ignored:



Now, I personally don't know how much better your average warrior's DPS is compared to your average Paladins or Shadow Knights. It may be an insignificant amount.

But, I'm at least curious to see some data on it, because if Warriors offer significantly more DPS, that means faster killing, which means faster XP ... which would mean they're superior in many groups (ie. any group where "root agro" is sufficient).

I didn't ignore it. My first post in this thread stated that Warriors do good DPS.

However, people generally over-estimate DPS in terms of it's ability to net more kills per hour. DPS has diminishing returns on P99, so the effectiveness of DPS depends on the camp, and how much DPS your group already has.

From levels 1-50 or so, the game wasn't balanced around the concept that people would all have 21% worn haste items and Velious era weapon ratios.

Many groups on P99 are already out DPSing the content by a large margin simply due to their over-gearing.

When you have a Warrior in the group filling the tank role, their primary concern is tanking the mob. Extra DPS is nice, but there are situations where you need to stop attacking the primary mob and try to get a mob off another player. You lose DPS when this happens. The group is already expecting the tank to have lower DPS, because they are not filling one of the DPS roles in the group.

[Ripqozko]

You seem to have completely ignored:



Now, I personally don't know how much better your average warrior's DPS is compared to your average Paladins or Shadow Knights. It may be an insignificant amount.

But, I'm at least curious to see some data on it, because if Warriors offer significantly more DPS, that means faster killing, which means faster XP ... which would mean they're superior in many groups (ie. any group where "root agro" is sufficient).

It's really not that much different if weapons are good on knight.

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

Riphealer is my pally with gozz shovel, monk, mink, rogue, war below me.

[Ennewi]

In the grand scheme of things, leveling a Warrior is generally more productive over an SK or Paladin if you plan on raiding. You are correct on that point. But not everybody builds their characters for raid tanking.

And of course knights get put to use as MAs versus Kunark targets, including VP. It all kind of evens out, even if roles are lopsided and situational.

[Snaggles]

Grind level content is easy. Crappy players just earn the spotlight when a tank can’t chain cast level 9 aggro spells.

[enjchanter]

This type of statement from op is only ever made by dps class or dog shit pally/sk or maybe just the naive. Wars are #1 xp tank. Learn how to play you scrubby loser

Oh yeah buddy I'm sure we're all in awe of your skill in auto attacking and rotating a mob 180 degrees

[Crede]

Pal/sk are on same damage table as war. Add in sk pet, prob out dps war sub 60.

With that being said, war is good if you’re gonna form super groups to snipe mobs that require disc to kill.

Otherwise, ogre sk for groups.

[Lampolo]

Oh yeah buddy I'm sure we're all in awe of your skill in auto attacking and rotating a mob 180 degrees

Thank you for highlighting how wars are under rated and how your a simpleton

[Lampolo]

In trios, groups and raids warriors are s-teir. Buncha kids repeating the old snap aggro nonsense

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In trios and groups, warriors are s-teir. Buncha kids repeating the old snap aggro nonsense

Can you explain your position, instead of simply insulting people who disagree with you?

I am honestly not sure why you keep making these claims without any evidence across multiple threads.

I am asking about trios and groups specifically. We all know Warriors are fantastic in raids.

[Lampolo]

Dsm I wasn't going to respond to you on these forums cause your nuts but I'm giving in. Clear evidence doesn't matter to you. You have proven this in every thread you participate in. If there were a judge that would perma ban you if I could provide clear evidence I would do so. Trying to argue on forums is useless. That's why people make statements and act rude without providing evidence. If there could be a winner you would lose in every thread I've seen u argue in

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dsm I wasn't going to respond to you on these forums cause your nuts but I'm giving in. Clear evidence doesn't matter to you. You have proven this in every thread you participate in. If there were a judge that would perma ban you if I could provide clear evidence I would do so. Trying to argue on forums is useless. That's why people make statements and act rude without providing evidence. If there could be a winner you would lose in every thread I've seen u argue in

Lots of nonsense and excuses. No evidence. Please stop posting this kind of nonsense if you can't back it up. You are just telling people false information about myself and the Warrior class.

I am not sure why you think insulting people on forums makes you look confident, or correct in your position. You just look silly.

[ya.dingus]

warrior nerds seething at the fact they're a liability and a straight loss in optimization.

Your minor increase of damage (lol, Ranger tier) doesn't make up for the fact monks make better group tanks at this point than warrior.

Disc? What, so you can nerf your own damage for group content? What kind of silly nonsense is that.

Nah, swerve warrior nerds. Sorry your raid gear is only ever going to be used on raids.

The only thing you're good at is sitting and taking CH chains for a couple hours, then logging off at the raid boss until next spawn.

Thems the breaks, deal.

[Ennewi]

Even if the title of the thread was true, on blue that 90% of game content has become 10% and the 10% that was raiding now amounts to 90%. A level 15 warrior won the last ring 10 roll. PUGs are few and far between. Alt armies don't need traditional groups to get to 60. Endgame is taking over the rest of the game, which was the reason for 46+ epic restrictions and paladin-only soulfires.

[ya.dingus]

Even if the title of the thread was true, on blue that 90% of game content has become 10% and the 10% that was raiding now amounts to 90%. A level 15 warrior won the last ring 10 roll. PUGs are few and far between. Alt armies don't need traditional groups to get to 60. Endgame is taking over the rest of the game, which was the reason for 46+ epic restrictions and paladin-only soulfires.

Hi folks, discount monk Warrior here, just want to remind you that we're useful and that the game is actually tailored for us end game!

Take a look at our exploited beta bucks Blue server which has been around for over 14 years now!

The full game is now just raiding and camping out at raid bosses. This soul crushing once a week playtime is all yours for the low cost of staring at your combat log endlessly to get to end game.

We're not only pidgeonholed viable, we're the "best tanks!"

With gameplay so good, it's a wonder why blue server averages less than 350 players a day! Insane right!?

[Jimjam]

Imo warrior is best tank as soon as it gets evasive, especially if puller is working in sync with disc timer to ensure the trouble some pulls come into camp while evasive runs.

At this point the deficits of the warrior don’t matter as they have easy access to fine weapons and other classes are fully developed.

The closer the warrior gets to 60 the truer this becomes as eventually it is spending around 50% of the time evasive and can happily tank a silly number of mobs at a time in those circumstances (useful in small groups or dense areas where the warrior may be puller).

[Ennewi]

Hi folks, discount monk Warrior here, just want to remind you that we're useful and that the game is actually tailored for us end game!

There's an overabundance of monks and for good reason. They're kind of OP, esp once all is said and done, but good luck getting to say and do all that with a long line in front of you. Mend is better than Lay Hands, coupled with BW to 70%. Block on top of the other defensive skills, sure why not. Plus stonestance. And some of the best gear options.

But form a monk-only guild and see how much it can accomplish. Won't get far. Every class in the trilogy is "bad" compared to live versions, bad meaning interdependent. Getting the most out of what are considered the worst classes can be fun, in what is otherwise known as doing more with less. Monks just happen to have a lot going for them, being more independent than other melee classes. It's an MMO though. Interdependence/synergy are front and center if you want to see everything the game has to offer.

The full game is now just raiding and camping out at raid bosses.

90% ≠ full game. The remaining 10% can be found in solo artist challenges, twinking alts, farming, etc.

With gameplay so good, it's a wonder why blue server averages less than 350 players a day! Insane right!?

Right now at this odd hour the count is roughly 430, so that's some ogre math you've got there. The population occasionally dipped even lower during the summer months long before green existed. Naturally, it fluctuates. Especially when new games come out. What never seems to change though is that there are ppl who continue to make homer simpson predictions about the end being nigh.

[Toxigen]

Good players don't need snap aggro in their groups, making War vastly superior for non-shitters.

And they just get better and better the further into lategame you get.

This isn't even a discussion outside of SSF / ALS stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Good players don't need snap aggro in their groups, making War vastly superior for non-shitters.

And they just get better and better the further into lategame you get.

Good players don't need a lot of things. Having snap agro is still better than not having it.

I am not sure why this is an issue. Nobody is saying Warriors are bad tanks in XP groups. They just don't fill the role as well as Paladins/SK's, which is factually true. Warriors simply don't have as many tools in their toolkit for XP groups. You aren't using Warrior discs.

What advantage does a group have with a Warrior over a Paladin or SK in an XP group?

As I said before, it is generally better to level a Warrior as a tank, because they can tank hard content better with Discs at 60. But while you are leveling, they aren't doing that kind of tanking. If you are in a static group aiming for level 60, then Warrior is probably going to be better. Not because they are going to be the better tank while leveling, but because your group is planning on getting to 60. They want the benefit of having Warrior Discs at 60.

Normal XP groups such as pickup groups or guild groups don't have this static group expectation, so there is no reason to prefer a Warrior over an SK/Paladin.

[unleashedd]

Shaman is best exp group tank, by a longshot

[Jimjam]

Good players don't need a lot of things. Having snap agro is still better than not having it.

I am not sure why this is an issue. Nobody is saying Warriors are bad tanks in XP groups. They just don't fill the role as well as Paladins/SK's, which is factually true. Warriors simply don't have as many tools in their toolkit for XP groups. You aren't using Warrior discs.

What advantage does a group have with a Warrior over a Paladin or SK in an XP group?

The great thing about groups is they aren’t about individual classes tool kits, but about the combination of tool kits of all characters.

To look at classes individually is way too basic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The great thing about groups is they aren’t about individual classes tool kits, but about the combination of tool kits of all characters.

To look at classes individually is way too basic.

If your group wants to pull with Feign Death, you need a Feign Death class.

You need to look at classes when forming a group, because different classes have different abilities.

I don't stigmatize classes. I am happy to bring a Warrior in to my XP group. That doesn't mean Warriors are the best XP group tanks. Warriors aren't using their Discs in XP groups, and Paladins/SK's have more tools.

What are people arguing about here? I don't think anybody disagrees that Warriors have less tools in their toolkit when they are not using Discs. Paladins and SK's can simply do more in XP groups when you don't need Warrior Discs.

[Toxigen]

"normal xp" groups dont need any specific puller you just run into full rooms at a time and bring them back to be CC'd

If I'm building a trio its gonna be war or monk, not paladin / SK.

Zerk dps is nutty.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"normal xp" groups dont need any specific puller you just run into full rooms at a time and bring them back to be CC'd

If I'm building a trio its gonna be war or monk, not paladin / SK.

Zerk dps is nutty.

I think you are missing the title of the thread. "90% of the games content" is XP group content. That is the vast majority of content in the game.

A Paladin or SK can also face pull rooms for CC, while also having other abilities. Warriors have no special ability that allows them to face pull rooms better, so I am not sure why you think Warriors have any advantage here.

With a Paladin or SK, you have the option to pull with FD, lull, root, etc. if your group thinks it's necessary. You also have snap agro when mistakes happen. Assuming your group will never make a mistake is silly.

Having more options is better than having less options.

If you are building a static group, that is not the same as a pickup group or XP group. I am not sure why you keep bringing that up. I agree with you that static groups can do whatever they want, because every player in the group has already agreed upon the goal of said static group.

I agree zerking DPS is great. But if you are tanking, you are not zerking, since you are getting healed.

[Jimjam]

I find in xp groups I rarely use FD on sk or monk these days. They are insatiable xp devourers. That was the context of the discussion when I made my posts, I appreciate in broader contexts FD is useful.

[Snaggles]

You all are devoting a lot of time trying to educate a troll.

Btw, every physical hit a dps takes is their fault, assuming the tank is doing all they can. Don’t waste heals, rez them and let them ponder the circumstances that lead them to looting their corpse.

[enjchanter]

There is legitimately no reason a warrior is ever considered good

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You all are devoting a lot of time trying to educate a troll.

Who is the troll?

There is legitimately no reason a warrior is ever considered good

Warriors are the best tanks in the game for anything that needs Warrior discs. This is raid content and hard single group content, like Xenovorash.

[Jimjam]

Who is the troll?



Warriors are the best tanks in the game for anything that needs Warrior discs. This is raid content and hard single group content, like Xenovorash.

The power of discs go beyond that. Evasive makes you basically invulnerable to low blues for 3 minutes like you can tank basically all the velks spiders high 50s with it running. Towards the levels you’ll be running this on/off for 3:4 minutes. Its insane. It also takes the brunt off minor names. I’d go so far to say it makes warrior best tank 51-60 (ranger is 1-40 with monk filling the interim period of 40-51).

[Lampolo]

Btw, every physical hit a dps takes is their fault, assuming the tank is doing all they can. Don’t waste heals, rez them and let them ponder the circumstances that lead them to looting their corpse.

This is good

[Bardp1999]

Warriors are fine and never have to meditate, with slow trivializing all group content im not sure why everyone doesnt just roll Monk - oh wait they do nevermind

[Landroval]

Who cares about XP, at level 60, you Mong? Are there AA to "grind" for? Level to 60 and "XP" is irrelevant.

[Ennewi]

Who is the troll?

The OP. It's interesting trying to engage in debates regardless.

[Lampolo]

Op just mad wars are the hero in raids while his shaman is a buff bot

[Naethyn]

Warriors do way more damage than knights in exp groups leveling up. Dual wield.

[Seducio]

Consider a monk each and every time you would ever think of using a warrior in a group.

Thank me later.

[Ripqozko]

Warriors do way more damage than knights in exp groups leveling up. Dual wield.

Nah depends on weapons, i promise my tuna sword gonna out dps some pug war in Kc.

[Naethyn]

Nah depends on weapons, i promise my tuna sword gonna out dps some pug war in Kc.

100% but that certainly isn't the average knight leveling up. My super twink paladin regularly would out dps rogues too.

On average though, in a normal exp group situation with players who don't have access to tov/endgame loot the warrior with dual wield will out dps any knight of equivalent gear and the group will have gained more exp from the warrior over the knight.

[Naethyn]

Consider a monk each and every time you would ever think of using a warrior in a group.

Thank me later.

The problem with monks is they are huge loot whores/greed comes first especially if its a first character.

[Ripqozko]

100% but that certainly isn't the average knight leveling up. My super twink paladin regularly would out dps rogues too.

On average though, in a normal exp group situation with players who don't have access to tov/endgame loot the warrior with dual wield will out dps any knight of equivalent gear and the group will have gained more exp from the warrior over the knight.

Prob , but they should be dps instead of tanking anyways like said in my first post. War is good dps and have some cheap raid twink items like kt axe and vyemm sword. Let knights tank and war dps.

[Seducio]

The problem with monks is they are huge loot whores/greed comes first especially if its a first character.

Monks being capitalist doesn't take away their (many) advantages as a group member compared to a warrior.

[ya.dingus]

It always amazed me that warriors thought their class was good because they had the capability to suck loot and stare at their combatlog while CH's were dumped into them.

Literally their only claim to fame is the defensive disc, otherwise they are outshined in every way (by a lot) by every other class.

Tired of giving these mouth breathers more credit than the doorstop they serve as in raids.

[Gloomlord]

It always amazed me that warriors thought their class was good because they had the capability to suck loot and stare at their combatlog while CH's were dumped into them.

Literally their only claim to fame is the defensive disc, otherwise they are outshined in every way (by a lot) by every other class.

Tired of giving these mouth breathers more credit than the doorstop they serve as in raids.

https://media.tenor.com/JkxBCBDXg3gAAAAd/out-of-line-anthony-mackie.gif

[enjchanter]

Anyone else love waiting for a warrior to proc

[Snaggles]

Warriors and knights with similar weapons are pretty close leveling up outside offensive discs. Similar dps weapons while warriors use aggro weapons (outside the herbalist spade or ToV stuff) which are pretty marginal in terms of putting out damage.

If you're comparing a ToV ___ to an EC ___ then sure, it's not fair. But why are you showing up to random PUG's in The Hole or KC anyways? To brag about your alt's raid loot? Go solo somewhere, hit 60, and park that nerd in a random raid zone.

Really, I've played all the tanks to know I'd be happy with any of them. I'm just not patient enough to go that extra mile and spend all the plat and dkp gearing each one up since they tend to be redundant outside hyper-specific instances. As for if a warrior farming scepters is less or more annoying than a pally questing a soulfire for the 30th time? That's TBD...

[Cen]

I think comparing warriors to sks and paladins in group content for the purposes of *tanking* is a waste of time, because tanking isn't really needed where CC functions. Tanks are needed in raids since you can't CC.

If you want to compare the tanks in groups, probably only worth talking about the damage really, but really even with that, who cares. Just bring cool people, and focus on your group being fashionable because only fashion matters :p

[ya.dingus]

I think comparing warriors to sks and paladins in group content for the purposes of *tanking* is a waste of time, because tanking isn't really needed where CC functions. Tanks are needed in raids since you can't CC.

If you want to compare the tanks in groups, probably only worth talking about the damage really, but really even with that, who cares. Just bring cool people, and focus on your group being fashionable because only fashion matters :p

Raiding in everquest is fundamentally garbage. I'll say it. It's bad.

Targets are zerged, classes have narrow functions and either are incredibly important, or not important at all. The fights are boring.

The only reason people love rushing to raid targets is because the core gameplay of everquest raiding is bad to begin with in the first place.

It's all they have to say they're having "fun", this mockery of what they call "competition".

[Lampolo]

Sorry your shaman is "not important at all"

[Crede]

Debates like these are silly. Group content is so trivial. An enc/cleric can basically kill anything. No warriors/knights etc needed.

Knights are way more fun to level. Warriors are cool if you’re going to Raid and form super groups. Not sure why this is a debate. Knights suck in raids and wars are OK in pugs if you have decent weps. If you just gonna do small man group stuff knights are better.

Best use I found for my warrior was pulling velks trains to zone in with disc.

[enjchanter]

I have 2 warriors which makes me the upmost authority on the class and I can confirm it sux

[Ripqozko]

Debates like these are silly. Group content is so trivial. An enc/cleric can basically kill anything. No warriors/knights etc needed.

Knights are way more fun to level. Warriors are cool if you’re going to Raid and form super groups. Not sure why this is a debate. Knights suck in raids and wars are OK in pugs if you have decent weps. If you just gonna do small man group stuff knights are better.

Best use I found for my warrior was pulling velks trains to zone in with disc.

knights are pretty fun in raids these days tbh, they get to tank all the trash, all of kunark. with the clearing needed for inner ring they get lots of chance to.

[JohnT88]

I'm offended over this criticism of warriors. I would say they are needy in the constant requests for buffs and ports, but all powerful in any group/raid setting once a mob is in camp for the dps and taunt. Multiple mobs in camp? Just taunt and aggro them all and pop evasive.

[Snaggles]

I don’t think I’d get too offended. Warriors have the most hps and often the most AC in the game with defensive discs. Nothing to fend off “harsh critique” but it’s not like people rag on them like druids and rangers. That said, some of the most thin skinned players in EQ are ogre warriors.

Warriors are pretty limited when things hit the fan but so is anything single-purpose. The “just taunt everything” assumes a lot of things. Unless you somehow found a way to put AA’s in ae taunt that is.

[enjchanter]

50/50 chance taunt will work
Pog

[Seducio]

I'm offended over this criticism of warriors. I would say they are needy in the constant requests for buffs and ports, but all powerful in any group/raid setting once a mob is in camp for the dps and taunt. Multiple mobs in camp? Just taunt and aggro them all and pop evasive.

I get what your saying but if Seedy fought Loathsome and you got to watch your two characters go at it with all their might who'd win?

I think that's all everyone is getting at.

[ya.dingus]

Imagine saying your class is good because you can pull 10 light blue mobs and tank them with evasion. As if any efficient exp group or item farm group is going to rely on that ability like their success depended on it.

Ive said it before with things like FSI, or discs, or any other stupid hyper situational focus people like to bring up to justify their class, race combo as being good:

Smart players base their decisions on abilities that are useful in 90% of their general gameplay activities. You dont optimize for the situations that youll encounter 20% of the time or less. Creating characters in a vaccuum is what inexperienced clowns do before being hard checked by the game by either being pidgeon holed into one thing only, or being out competed by a more generally useful class combo. That relegates you to the last option category, and unless youre completely honest with yourself, and the juice is worth the squeeze for the class fantasy youre trading your general playability for, you shouldnt go that route.

period.

[Jimjam]

Idk a lot of 50+ levelling is pulling 25 spiders and having a bard / cleric / wizard kite them down… that said maybe SK is better at that…

[ya.dingus]

Idk a lot of 50+ levelling is pulling 25 spiders and having a bard / cleric / wizard kite them down… that said maybe SK is better at that…

Is there a reason youre using a tank at all in that situation when the bard is supposed to be aoe snarring to hold agro while the wizard aoes?

[Snaggles]

Ive said it before with things like FSI, or discs, or any other stupid hyper situational focus people like to bring up to justify their class, race combo as being good

I discounted a lot of this assuming you were trolling but do you actually think FSI and racial advantages are in the same ballpark as discs or class mechanics? Have you been on the healing or tanking side of a warrior and a knight? It’s a notable difference.

While I appreciate the notion a flexible group doesn’t need a warrior it’s pretty common sense in 2023. Most the exp content people grind could be druid tanked. I also wouldn’t shun a warrior (unless the person was awful). Generally filling groups based on what is available is the path with a concurrent player base of 400-800 people.

Is there a reason youre using a tank at all in that situation when the bard is supposed to be aoe snarring to hold agro while the wizard aoes?

Bards don’t have aggro songs anymore. Sorry to break it to you.

[ya.dingus]

I discounted a lot of this assuming you were trolling but do you actually think FSI and racial advantages are in the same ballpark as discs or class mechanics? Have you been on the healing or tanking side of a warrior and a knight? It’s a notable difference.

While I appreciate the notion a flexible group doesn’t need a warrior it’s pretty common sense in 2023. Most the exp content people grind could be druid tanked. I also wouldn’t shun a warrior (unless the person was awful). Generally filling groups based on what is available is the path with a concurrent player base of 400-800 people.



Bards don’t have aggro songs anymore. Sorry to break it to you.

First of all yeah, I used to raid on a dwarf cleric, and group. In groups there is no difference, and Knights are vastly superior to warriors for the sheer fact I dont like breaking my chs just to celestial elixir a nob dps that has no self restraint. I also dont like rebuffing same dps nob when he dies.

Also why micromanage a warrior in zerk when I can get a monk in group thats just as durable and puts out more damage without the need to float his hp? Oh yeah, he can pull reliably too with easier access to cheesing spawns to snipe rares.


FSI talks go in the FSI thread. Math is there.

Only reason you say I was a troll is because you didnt like neither the content of what I said, nor the truth of it. Thats a you problem clownboy.

Youre saying snare/slow doesnt build massive amounts of agro? Link the change in the notes.

[Crede]

Idk a lot of 50+ levelling is pulling 25 spiders and having a bard / cleric / wizard kite them down… that said maybe SK is better at that…

Pally would prob be better at 59 casting hot on themselves and pulling. But warrior disc is pretty good as well I pulled a lot of velks trains that way. With that being said shouldnt be a primary reason to roll a warrior. It was fun though.

[Ripqozko]

First of all yeah, I used to raid on a dwarf cleric, and group. In groups there is no difference, and Knights are vastly superior to warriors for the sheer fact I dont like breaking my chs just to celestial elixir a nob dps that has no self restraint. I also dont like rebuffing same dps nob when he dies.

Also why micromanage a warrior in zerk when I can get a monk in group thats just as durable and puts out more damage without the need to float his hp? Oh yeah, he can pull reliably too with easier access to cheesing spawns to snipe rares.


FSI talks go in the FSI thread. Math is there.

Only reason you say I was a troll is because you didnt like neither the content of what I said, nor the truth of it. Thats a you problem clownboy.

Youre saying snare/slow doesnt build massive amounts of agro? Link the change in the notes.

Not on bards no, they nerfed songs to 140 max threat last patch . Feel free to read yourself . Bard aggro is bad now .

[Crede]

Is there a reason youre using a tank at all in that situation when the bard is supposed to be aoe snarring to hold agro while the wizard aoes?

Its a lot easier on the bard to have someone else pull. Wiz can pull it with epic rune but warrior mitigation with disc way better than an 800 pt wiz rune.

[Snaggles]

You could root the mob and yell at dps to stand back. Or have someone else root the mob. Better yet, don’t heal the dps. It’s group-level content; if they can’t live with a fungi tunic they probably should learn how to play the game better. I can’t remember the last time any of my non-tanks got a cleric heal besides right after a rez.

Really, do whatever you want. If you can pick and choose your tank, carpe diem.

Pally would prob be better at 59 casting hot on themselves and pulling. But warrior disc is pretty good as well I pulled a lot of velks trains that way. With that being said shouldnt be a primary reason to roll a warrior. It was fun though.

Can also DA at the start or channel a DA pretty easy while the train is growing. Literally every crit lull fail DA is my next click. It’s not a defensive disc but 18min CD is functional to mix in on occasion. Plus LoH on the run.

[Lune]

Yikes. Lots of people who have no clue what they are talking about...

Warriors bring significantly more dps than a knight given similar gear, and no, DPS does not have diminishing returns within the scope of this topic unless the content is completely trivial for what you've brought, in which case any additional member is useless. Some pretty basic logic there.

Most DPS in this game worth bringing have some pretty robust agro management tools such that, given equal gear and skill, warrior agro is not going to be a big issue unless you're a pants-on-head newb.

Is the warrior's extra dps and tankiness worth losing knight snap agro and utility? Depends on your comp and camp. But with some really basic agro management warrior is almost certainly going to produce higher xp/hour, especially considering that outside of end-stage eternal Velious, for the vast majority of the timeline, knights have a dirty, stinking 40% XP penalty (into the 60's if you're a fatty or iksar). Additionally, warriors are infinitely better than knights for applications such as duos and trios, specifically duoing with ubiquitous shamans.

And I say that as a longtime knight aficionado, really the only role I love to play outside rangers.

[Crede]

Yikes. Lots of people who have no clue what they are talking about...

Warriors bring significantly more dps than a knight given similar gear, and no, DPS does not have diminishing returns within the scope of this topic unless the content is completely trivial for what you've brought, in which case any additional member is useless. Some pretty basic logic there.

Most DPS in this game worth bringing have some pretty robust agro management tools such that, given equal gear and skill, warrior agro is not going to be a big issue unless you're a pants-on-head newb.

Is the warrior's extra dps and tankiness worth losing knight snap agro and utility? Depends on your comp and camp. But with some really basic agro management warrior is almost certainly going to produce higher xp/hour, especially considering that outside of end-stage eternal Velious, for the vast majority of the timeline, knights have a dirty, stinking 40% XP penalty (into the 60's if you're a fatty or iksar). Additionally, warriors are infinitely better than knights for applications such as duos and trios, specifically duoing with ubiquitous shamans.

And I say that as a longtime knight aficionado, really the only role I love to play outside rangers.

I'm genuinely curious if there's data to support warrior DPS just being significantly more than knight DPS, especially for groups. Knights are on the same damage table as warriors and also benefit from the 2h bonus now. This isn't vanilla where knights truly did suck. SKs final 52/58 pets can also quad for 39/46. I recently leveled a warrior to 60, was using KT axe. I know it's not great, but never once felt I was blowing my knights away in DPS.

[Lune]

I'm genuinely curious if there's data to support warrior DPS just being significantly more than knight DPS, especially for groups. Knights are on the same damage table as warriors and also benefit from the 2h bonus now. This isn't vanilla where knights truly did suck. SKs final 52/58 pets can also quad for 39/46. I recently leveled a warrior to 60, was using KT axe. I know it's not great, but never once felt I was blowing my knights away in DPS.

Knights are on the same backend damage table as warriors but their skills are not, and again, that is only mid to late Velious (over-represented in the life of the server but really a small slice of the actual timeline of progression). Paltry 225 offense/weapon skill cap for knights, 250 for warriors, which you really feel on high level mobs. But you're right, they are certainly closer during this point in the timeline. During classic, Kunark, and the first part of Velious warriors are in a different league altogether.

This is from years of me parsing my ranger's groups trying to prove a point.

[Landroval]

The cool down on the evasive disc is such that, in the aforementioned scenario all of the spiders in the front half of velks are cleared before repop, with a cool down timer commensurate for repeatedly accomplishing this goal. There are not unlimited mobs to continue pulling without encroaching on others' "camp", so the difference between the knight pulling 3 or 4 at a time, and a warrior pulling 30 or 40 is rewarded with additional AFK time between repops

[Toxigen]

Knights are on the same backend damage table as warriors but their skills are not, and again, that is only mid to late Velious (over-represented in the life of the server but really a small slice of the actual timeline of progression). Paltry 225 offense/weapon skill cap for knights, 250 for warriors, which you really feel on high level mobs. But you're right, they are certainly closer during this point in the timeline. During classic, Kunark, and the first part of Velious warriors are in a different league altogether.

This is from years of me parsing my ranger's groups trying to prove a point.

Let's not forget zerk damage.

My war had an eashen sword at level 46. The damage was insane.

[Snaggles]

No, dps is closer than one might think these days, I parse all the time. Assuming weapons are similar. The issue is while a warriors has better offensive traits (even off disc) most warriors aren’t tanking off serious dps with 2h’s. Or if they can, nobody ever does.

Even a pleb warrior with a 1/1 ratio 2h at 60 does great dps. Disc burning warriors with a solid 2h and avatar are usually near the top of the chart. Post knight melee table change and scaling damage bonus knights with 2h’s do VERY well on blue cons. While raiding, if a warrior or even monk picks a crap DW combo they will get smoked by 2h knights.

Ultimately, all this is puffery. Even rogues in grind groups play second fiddle to charmed pets and it’s not even a close race. The last 15dps difference between a grind tank knight or warrior is a shaman pet. Go with who’s available. If you have to pick go with the person you trust doesn’t suck (or won’t annoy you).

[Ripqozko]

No, dps is closer than one might think these days, I parse all the time. Assuming weapons are similar. The issue is while a warriors has better offensive traits (even off disc) most warriors aren’t tanking off serious dps with 2h’s. Or if they can, nobody ever does.

Even a pleb warrior with a 1/1 ratio 2h at 60 does great dps. Disc burning warriors with a solid 2h and avatar are usually near the top of the chart. Post knight melee table change and scaling damage bonus knights with 2h’s do VERY well on blue cons. While raiding, if a warrior or even monk picks a crap DW combo they will get smoked by 2h knights.

Ultimately, all this is puffery. Even rogues in grind groups play second fiddle to charmed pets and it’s not even a close race. The last 15dps difference between a grind tank knight or warrior is a shaman pet. Go with who’s available. If you have to pick go with the person you trust doesn’t suck (or won’t annoy you).

Yep pretty much, and knight weapons are pretty much free in raid guilds. Easy to out dps most wars.

[radda]

i dont know why any warrior would put up with you all.

[enjchanter]

i dont know why any warrior would put up with you all.

they wouldnt be able to read the group chat from zone in anyway

[ya.dingus]

they wouldnt be able to read the group chat from zone in anyway

Lol

[mycoolrausch]

Today in 2023 there are no pugs so composition doesn't matter.

5 years ago when there were pugs people just picked up whoever as long as they weren't a wizard, so composition didn't matter.

Nothing about this thread matters.

[Troxx]

Yep pretty much, and knight weapons are pretty much free in raid guilds. Easy to out dps most wars.

My 60 warrior with Dain Axe (42/43) puts out a fuckton more dps than my 60 paladin with a 1.15 ratio spear (53/46) at the same attack and str values.

Higher skill caps and triple attack at 60 makes warrior with 2handers extremely capable at DPS. Nice thing about the Dain axe is it doubles as a very strong aggro/tank setup.

Dain axe is easier and is (or was when I picked it up) just as dkp cheap as knight weapons.

Now a knight with a solid 2hander vs a warrior with a dual wield kit - it’s going to be a lot closer and favor the knight unless those dual wield ratio weapons are way up there.

The 2h dmg bonus patch really shifted the balance in lots of ways.

[Ripqozko]

My 60 warrior with Dain Axe (42/43) puts out a fuckton more dps than my 60 paladin with a 1.15 ratio spear (53/46) at the same attack and str values.

Higher skill caps and triple attack at 60 makes warrior with 2handers extremely capable at DPS. Nice thing about the Dain axe is it doubles as a very strong aggro/tank setup.

Dain axe is easier and is (or was when I picked it up) just as dkp cheap as knight weapons.

Now a knight with a solid 2hander vs a warrior with a dual wield kit - it’s going to be a lot closer and favor the knight unless those dual wield ratio weapons are way up there.

The 2h dmg bonus patch really shifted the balance in lots of ways.

I mean I have parses out dpsing wars , can they go bananas with disc and such sure. But knights ain’t crazy below and their weapons are basically free in tov .

[Troxx]

My paladin has parses of out-dpsing rogues at times in groups - I get it. Velious high end raid pal/sk 2handers are nuts. Knight dps actually becomes GOOD.

My guess is the warriors you beat out in parses didn’t get the memo and we’re trying to dps with dual wield. Even if offensive skills between the tank classes were equal, one of the 3 gets triple attack on main hand swings passively at 60.

The skill/triple attack advantage on my 60 warrior has him doing considerably more damage with a 42/43 than my 60 paladin with a 53/46.

I can scrounge around for the parses maybe, but the warrior with the inferior weapon tends to put out 15-25% more damage with equivalent buffs on group content. I admittedly do not have comparative raid parse data - mostly because I could never assist DPS from behind with Dain axe without a high risk of eventually ripping aggro at some point in the fight - even with epic/trident warriors tanking. I tried it a few times and it resulted in getting fussed at, dying, inducing crippling embarrassment… or some combination of all of the above lol.

I do wish I had a NToV dps 2hander on my warrior to play with. Unfortunately it never happened before I had to step away from a play schedule that permitted raiding in any capacity.

[Ripqozko]

My paladin has parses of out-dpsing rogues at times in groups - I get it. Velious high end raid pal/sk 2handers are nuts. Knight dps actually becomes GOOD.

My guess is the warriors you beat out in parses didn’t get the memo and we’re trying to dps with dual wield. Even if offensive skills between the tank classes were equal, one of the 3 gets triple attack on main hand swings passively at 60.

The skill/triple attack advantage on my 60 warrior has him doing considerably more damage with a 42/43 than my 60 paladin with a 53/46.

I can scrounge around for the parses maybe, but the warrior with the inferior weapon tends to put out 15-25% more damage with equivalent buffs on group content. I admittedly do not have comparative raid parse data - mostly because I could never assist DPS from behind with Dain axe without a high risk of eventually ripping aggro at some point in the fight - even with epic/trident warriors tanking. I tried it a few times and it resulted in getting fussed at, dying, inducing crippling embarrassment… or some combination of all of the above lol.

I do wish I had a NToV dps 2hander on my warrior to play with. Unfortunately it never happened before I had to step away from a play schedule that permitted raiding in any capacity.

Yea If war use 2h they are pretty good dps, that vyemm 2h underrated . Just most don’t.

[Troxx]

It’s unfortunate for sure. I had my Frostreaver before the 2h dmg bonus patch. It was “good enough” aggro to main tank with and did pretty solid damage. After the patch the threat output shot up significantly. It put every other weapon in my toolkit in the dustbin both from a dps and threat generation standpoint.

Monks saw the same phenomenon with TStaff in that patch. TStaff becomes botb dps until you have access to high end velious gear. Prior to the patch there were good “middle of the road” dps alternatives including epic fists, sky fists, scepter of mastery etc. At 29/30 it is still competitive with some raid 2handers with a >1.1 ratio. 30 delay is about the sweetest sweet spot you can find for maximizing dmg bonus.

[Toxigen]

Frostreaver is probably the best bang-for-your-buck war weapon. Shits insane for how cheap it goes.

[enjchanter]

I wish I looted all my tov weapons on the correct warrior
Now I suffer

[Lune]

Yea looking back I think I was wrong in my statements about knight DPS, that's my relative lack of Velious experience showing

[jebbasha]

It seems like you're discussing the role of a Warrior in a specific context related to a game or gaming environment. Based on the information you provided, it appears that you believe a Warrior character in this game becomes an effective tank once it obtains an ability called "evasive." This ability allows the Warrior to excel in tanking, especially when coordinated with a puller who manages enemy aggro and the timer for using the evasive skill.

You also mention that as the Warrior progresses towards level 60, this role becomes even more effective because they can spend a significant portion of their time in an evasive state, allowing them to handle a large number of enemies simultaneously. This is particularly useful in situations where the Warrior is also acting as the puller.

[Naethyn]

My biggest regret 52+ is "saving" my discs and only using them in really hard fights. Turns out you just want to evasive every time its up that you are taking damage.

[Toxigen]

Evasive underrated AF.

[Jimjam]

My biggest regret 52+ is "saving" my discs and only using them in really hard fights. Turns out you just want to evasive every time its up that you are taking damage.

The trick is to time the hard pulls to align with evasive, not the other way around.

[Naethyn]

Just use evasive every time it’s up that you are taking damage trust me.

[Naethyn]

At 60 it’s 3 minutes evasive with a 7 min refresh timer. You should be evasive as much as you can while taking damage.

[Malk]

Naethyn, you may be arguing with bing/chatgpt here (or any other LLM)

[Jimjam]

Naethyn, you may be arguing with bing/chatgpt here (or any other LLM)

Yeah, but forum posting is not just a dialogue between 2 but a performative action intended to communicate to other readers. Natman is right. Spam that E!

[Foxplay]

and the best pixels in the game come from 10% of the games content....goodluck doing it without warriors

[wittles]

Server content is small enough you are very unlucky to ever run in to a group that will turn down a warrior in favor of an sk or paly.

[Toxigen]

between evasive and crippling blows its not even close unless you're doing some weird paladin + enc duo or something

[enjchanter]

Warrior sucks
Give me paladin any day

[Snaggles]

between evasive and crippling blows its not even close unless you're doing some weird paladin + enc duo or something

Better natural mitigation, disc mitigation, plus half the time the mob is hitting other people so warriors are extra durable.

Server content is small enough you are very unlucky to ever run in to a group that will turn down a warrior in favor of an sk or paly.

100% this. Outside raid needs its classic p99 theory craft. Pick someone with weapons, designate as “tank”, CC as needed, slow stuff, and heal the person.

[zelld52]

Better natural mitigation, disc mitigation, plus half the time the mob is hitting other people so warriors are extra durable.



100% this. Outside raid needs its classic p99 theory craft. Pick someone with weapons, designate as “tank”, CC as needed, slow stuff, and heal the person.

Ranger, Monk, Warrior, Paladin, SK. All good options for groups tank.

[Nitestroke]

This is absurd post. Warriors are just as if not better in xp groups. They have more ac, take damage better, and keep clerics mana higher than any other tank. End of discussion. The person creating this post needs to get some sunlight. Or take a shower. Or atleast show us where u got touched by a warr. Also if pally or sk chain pulling they will run out of mana and need med break. Warrior don't need mana. The post was made by an inferior hybrid that's salty cause they made the wrong choice and lie to themselves that they are optimal

[Ripqozko]

This is absurd post. Warriors are just as if not better in xp groups. They have more ac, take damage better, and keep clerics mana higher than any other tank. End of discussion. The person creating this post needs to get some sunlight. Or take a shower. Or atleast show us where u got touched by a warr. Also if pally or sk chain pulling they will run out of mana and need med break. Warrior don't need mana. The post was made by an inferior hybrid that's salty cause they made the wrong choice and lie to themselves that they are optimal

Speaking of salty

[enjchanter]

They're the worst at the main thing the tank needs to do most: keep aggro

[Nitestroke]

Speaking of salty

Wow very insightful reply. You must be special, with a capital R

Btw I don't have a warrior sk or pally so u can show me how or where I'm salty.

[Toxigen]

laughs in sorry you dont got hope this helps

[Ripqozko]

Wow very insightful reply. You must be special, with a capital R

Btw I don't have a warrior sk or pally so u can show me how or where I'm salty.

Salt intake on max

[magnetaress]

Minmaxing is dumb. Play and RP what you want how you want.

[Gloomlord]

This is absurd post. Warriors are just as if not better in xp groups. They have more ac, take damage better, and keep clerics mana higher than any other tank. End of discussion. The person creating this post needs to get some sunlight. Or take a shower. Or atleast show us where u got touched by a warr. Also if pally or sk chain pulling they will run out of mana and need med break. Warrior don't need mana. The post was made by an inferior hybrid that's salty cause they made the wrong choice and lie to themselves that they are optimal

It is highly unlikely that the knights will run out of mana if they have a Bard, Enchanter or Necromancer and if they sit between pulls. That's not even mentioning the clickies and access to FT items.

Warriors are crap for dungeon groups by comparison, if gear is equal. On demand snap aggro for a tank class is invaluable, not to mention the utility they bring. They still have very high health and AC, which is definitely sufficient for 95% of 6-man group encounters.

Warriors only real useful purpose is to tank raid bosses with their defensive discipline. They are most definitely not optimal compared to a Monk or a Knight for small group content. Nobody is lying to themselves when they say that early EQ Warrior is a hallmark of bad game design.

[Snaggles]

Since tanks generally don’t pull they can sit while someone else brings stuff to the camp. Even if they can’t sit I would say 5 casts of Flash of Light is excessive for any 30 second kill. It’s 12 mana x 5 = 60 mana. Meanwhile C2 alone is 11/tick, 1 natural mana/tick while standing plus FT2 if you have a Narandi helm. No point is, you will be fine if only casting for aggro.

In most situations a knight will have so much extra mana they will occasionally cast spells they don’t need to just to avoid falling asleep (or stuns to shut down casters).

There is nothing wrong with a warrior. I find some are exceptionally salty with a chip on their shoulder. Best tank in the game with aggro problems or ok tank without aggro problems, pick your path. I would agree with previous posters you rarely get to “pick your tank”. If you can these days my vote is two instead of one. Even knights do solid DPS and are extremely durable. Some of my toughest low-man kills were set up this way.

[silo32]

Geared warrior > hybrid all day

Raiding or grouping

Get better gear

/Thread

[Toxigen]

imagine not having mobs to kill in camp constantly

laughing pretty hard at how bad / slow people are at this game

if your tank is sitting you're doing it wrong

[Snaggles]

It takes a lot of work to run a hybrid out of mana if casting level 9 taunt spells though. Well, maybe SK’s until DC is fixed.

If a cleric is running out of mana in grind situations the rest of the group need to find the god of their choice.

Group xp isn’t difficult. Doesn’t matter what class the tank is.

[magnetaress]

Imagine not grouping with a class that can root. Lol.

Wars truly best.

[Gloomlord]

In 95% of groups I join with a warrior tanking, nobody roots to help the Warrior tank. So, it seems like the overwhelming majority of people in this game are "baddies". I suppose it gets exhausting in a game to constantly root for your tank when you could be doing other things with your mana.

I mean, sure, you could argue if there aren't mobs in camp constantly, then you're doing it wrong. The thing is: that still makes knights better, since they don't need to wait for a lucky proc or a group member rooting. A single Flash from a Paladin, and your Rogue doesn't need to hold back. That increases the kill speed, does it not? Depending on the camp and the DPS, the knights may be able to clear before they deplete their entire mana bar.

You can argue this and that all day about how Warriors are awesome, but they need some serious hand holding in groups and a boatload of platinum. All other classes are self-contained compared to this poorly designed class.

[Ennewi]

In 95% of groups I join with a warrior tanking, nobody roots to help the Warrior tank. So, it seems like the overwhelming majority of people in this game are "baddies". I suppose it gets exhausting in a game to constantly root for your tank when you could be doing other things with your mana.

I mean, sure, you could argue if there aren't mobs in camp constantly, then you're doing it wrong. The thing is: that still makes knights better, since they don't need to wait for a lucky proc or a group member rooting. A single Flash from a Paladin, and your Rogue doesn't need to hold back. That increases the kill speed, does it not? Depending on the camp and the DPS, the knights may be able to clear before they deplete their entire mana bar.

Arguably this is what gives paladin and ranger the edge, as both have root; even if a better geared, higher level tank joins group, they can transition from tank to puller and use root to keep the target on the warrior if need be, while also providing light cc. Warrior still has role versatility, since it can hover around low health to put out respectable damage with the risk of drawing blood aggro.

[silo32]

If you don't have a bard, ranger, monk etc non stop pulling... with a phat geared war or w/e or having 3-5 classes in your party with root and c2 etc doing work

Lol

Warrior best tank in game

Raid and group

Get better gear, sorry ur war is in banded and not full skyshrine at lvl 40 with will sapper, wave crasher epiz git gud, games old and so are you, it's solved, stop all the bs theory crafting

/Thread repeat add nasume

[Gloomlord]

Well, if you put it that way, why wouldn't I just get a Monk if I didn't care about snap aggro? Excellent DPS and excellent AC. And if the group had C2, that's even more of a reason to get a Paladin or Shadowknight. I can whip out a Narandi's (or better) and go to town with snap aggro. We're still talking about two classes that can take a serious wallop, and have access to gear and utility that can help that tanking in a non-raid situation.

Going to Seb with some horrific casters and runners? Why the damn hell wouldn't I take another stun class just to make absolutely certain it doesn't get a gate off? Why wouldn't I want a class with an on demand snare so it doesn't start running and waste time and start a wipe? You think I'd give a crap about Warrior's extra damage and extra survivability?

[Jimjam]

Don’t need snare if you always keep multiple mobs in camp.

[Troxx]

Several people here apparently haven't grouped with competent, well equipped warriors.

[silo32]

As a healer, I was always topped up on mana with a ogre or troll warrior in a group. Always felt too easy. Staying ahead of Spawns and repops.

With a hybrid in group as main tank. They always drained my mana, had to wait sometimes for them to "med for a min".

This is XP 52-60 ymmv

This coming from someone with a 60 sk, cool snap aggro abilities etc...

Warrior is bis if done right. Sorry you played with shitty warriors in chitty gear.

[silo32]

Going to Seb with some horrific casters and runner?

Sounds like most of you play with just mediocre or bad players.

If your in Seb and your chanter isn't using lvl 4 mez to spam interrupt Gates, heals, any bad casts. Looks like skill issues.

Considering your in a xp crawl group if you don't have another class with utility, snare, root, cc lol just lol.

I use to duo all the abc named with a chanter and a mage in shit gear. Let alone a full party that could keep the entire spawn and trash clear with down time.

Games been solved. Lots of baddies out there. With that being said p99 will thrive till people git gud, hard kek

[Gloomlord]

Don’t need snare if you always keep multiple mobs in camp.

Hold on a moment. A lot of mobs still run at low health, regardless of who is locking incomings down.

[Gloomlord]

Sounds like most of you play with just mediocre or bad players.

If your in Seb and your chanter isn't using lvl 4 mez to spam interrupt Gates, heals, any bad casts. Looks like skill issues.

Considering your in a xp crawl group if you don't have another class with utility, snare, root, cc lol just lol.

I use to duo all the abc named with a chanter and a mage in shit gear. Let alone a full party that could keep the entire spawn and trash clear with down time.

Games been solved. Lots of baddies out there. With that being said p99 will thrive till people git gud, hard kek

But what if I don't have an Enchanter, or the mob level is sufficiently high enough that a resist could go off? There's a reason why multiple people throw in a stun and a bash if they can.

Not everyone is going to have the perfect composition, so why look down upon an SK for having snare?

But if we all really think knights are so unnecessary, then I can just grab a Monk to tank for me. Excellent DPS, AC and evasion, and throw in mend too. Can also FD for those camps where pacify can't be used.

Ya.dingus is right. Why are we still having a discussion about this?

You guys are right about one thing, though: most people are extremely lazy in this game. And that's an additional reason why I'd want a knight in my group: they're idiot-proof.

[Soothsayer]

Old EQ is chock full of Incredibly boneheaded game design, and warriors are a prime example. I'd rather have a solid monk than a warrior any day of the week outside of a raid setting, and I say that as a warrior main. Monks are just objectively better in most cases - they're about as tanky, their DPS is absolutely insane and they can hold aggro just fine with a decent weapon setup, they have enormous group utility thanks to FD... warriors get literally nothing except for a bit more health and a lame taunt that doesn't work half the time. You could literally do better with a monk tank than a warrior tank in most XP settings.

I think SOE finally gave warriors a legit aggro ability (Provoke) in one of the 2003 expansions after realizing that shield bash / slam wasn't generating aggro like it was originally intended to. If I remember correctly, the devs were confused by warriors constantly dual wielding and using 2 handers instead of traditional "sword and board" setups we see for tanks in most other MMORPGs. Hilarious stuff =P

[Gloomlord]

I made a topic on Green asking for Provoke. "No changes" be damned -- I just want to group with a functioning class. In before people proclaiming "just root", though.

Also, I have an extremely hard time comprehending how the developers were confused about why warriors weren't using a shield to tank by the time of Kunark at least. For whatever reason they decided to, they're lying.

[Snaggles]

Warriors have the best Hp pool in the game and the most mitigation, on and off disc. For trade they have aggro issues.

I don’t think the original devs did everything right. They knew how to introduce a challenge and not pander to their audience. They really didn’t care about knights and figured no serious people would play them. Most of our gripes are a learned elevation of their merits and an impatience of any warrior flaws.

[Guesty07]

Warriors are great. Great dps, great HP and AC. Put a warrior in any of my exp groups over a knight any day of the week

[Toxigen]

Old EQ is chock full of Incredibly boneheaded game design, and warriors are a prime example. I'd rather have a solid monk than a warrior any day of the week outside of a raid setting, and I say that as a warrior main. Monks are just objectively better in most cases - they're about as tanky, their DPS is absolutely insane and they can hold aggro just fine with a decent weapon setup, they have enormous group utility thanks to FD... warriors get literally nothing except for a bit more health and a lame taunt that doesn't work half the time. You could literally do better with a monk tank than a warrior tank in most XP settings.

I think SOE finally gave warriors a legit aggro ability (Provoke) in one of the 2003 expansions after realizing that shield bash / slam wasn't generating aggro like it was originally intended to. If I remember correctly, the devs were confused by warriors constantly dual wielding and using 2 handers instead of traditional "sword and board" setups we see for tanks in most other MMORPGs. Hilarious stuff =P

If the tank is also pulling, sure...take that monk over a war.

But if you're chewing through mobs for hours the war will always be the better choice. Evasive 4tw

[Snaggles]

Well taunt is pretty stupid but does occasionally work and is instant. Monks peeling with melee aggro is not the same and totem clicks are limited. Assuming a warrior can’t peel at all isn’t fair.

Most grind groups are not difficult. Split up the roles. Who pulls, who takes hits, who heals, who CC’s (if needed, usually root will suffice). Whether you have a ranger with 2.2k unbuffed or a warrior with 4500 if someone is wiping in The Hole it’s probably the drool on the keyboard over the class composition.

If left to pick I like solid aggro locks over dps taking splash damage, unless you have a bard or something. Quicker slows. The elitism of getting your pick is ridiculous though unless your buddy has a knight AND a warrior with the ambivalence to play either class.

[Toxigen]

If your group has a rogue or two then you're better off with a knight for sure.

[Trelaboon]

Warriors are a raid tank, nothing else. There’s almost no scenario where a Warrior would be better than a knight tank, despite having higher DPS. Their function is to make things like AoW killable. If you don’t plan to raid at least some, it’s a class wasted on you.

[Naethyn]

Warriors do more dps and if you need hybrid abilities you’re probably not playing well enough.

[Gloomlord]

Warriors are a raid tank, nothing else. There’s almost no scenario where a Warrior would be better than a knight tank, despite having higher DPS. Their function is to make things like AoW killable. If you don’t plan to raid at least some, it’s a class wasted on you.

I mean, yeah, you don't "need" snap aggro. It's just really nice for your group to have.

You don't "need" your tank to have FD, but it opens up potential camps. You don't "need" stuns on your tank, but having stun, taunt, and being incredibly tanky is godsend for a potential charming Enchanter. That's not mentioning the other utility that increases quality of life for you and your group.

Having that is better for a 6-man group than a bit of extra tankiness and DPS. I don't care if you can babysit the Warrior's crappy aggro -- the knights just bring more to the table in a small group scenario.

[Snaggles]

Warriors do more dps and if you need hybrid abilities you’re probably not playing well enough.

At 60 with a ToV 2h in a dps role the gap widens a lot. A warrior levelling up with EC tunnel aggro 1h’s though vs a knight with a Reaver?

No tank is there for DPS. In a group the Ench pet will do multiples times more. Just do your one job well.

[Crede]

I mean, yeah, you don't "need" snap aggro. It's just really nice for your group to have.

You don't "need" your tank to have FD, but it opens up potential camps. You don't "need" stuns on your tank, but having stun, taunt, and being incredibly tanky is godsend for a potential charming Enchanter. That's not mentioning the other utility that increases quality of life for you and your group.

Having that is better for a 6-man group than a bit of extra tankiness and DPS. I don't care if you can babysit the Warrior's crappy aggro -- the knights just bring more to the table in a small group scenario.

This is why sks are the best group tank imo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean, yeah, you don't "need" snap aggro. It's just really nice for your group to have.

You don't "need" your tank to have FD, but it opens up potential camps. You don't "need" stuns on your tank, but having stun, taunt, and being incredibly tanky is godsend for a potential charming Enchanter. That's not mentioning the other utility that increases quality of life for you and your group.

Having that is better for a 6-man group than a bit of extra tankiness and DPS. I don't care if you can babysit the Warrior's crappy aggro -- the knights just bring more to the table in a small group scenario.

This is why sks are the best group tank imo.

Agreed.

[Snaggles]

I feel like more stuff on live fled at low health than on p99. Having snare was almost necessary. Also less charm pets in groups so that last 20% took a longer chase.

Nothing wrong with a SK or any other tank. Just an observation I made with my ranger too.

[Keebz]

As an SK I will say Paladin is a better group tank for most groups.

[Ripqozko]

As an SK I will say Paladin is a better group tank for most groups.

As both my pally worked better, toolkit is nice and mana is cheaper than sk, I prob had more fun on sk tho.

[Trelaboon]

This is why sks are the best group tank imo.

Not anymore. Pre-disease cloud nerf? Maybe. Feels way worse now though.

[wuanahto]

5% of the server causes 95% of the problems
so what does that make warriors? make defensive stance cause -50% agro and 90% of server problems go away

[Snaggles]

5% of the server causes 95% of the problems
so what does that make warriors? make defensive stance cause -50% agro and 90% of server problems go away

If you don’t raid you are unaware of all the “server problems”. Just don’t raid. Most people shouldn’t anyways.

[bobjonesp99]

5% of the server causes 95% of the problems
so what does that make warriors? make defensive stance cause -50% agro and 90% of server problems go away

what are you even going on about. defensive already does reduce threat btw.

[Troxx]

what are you even going on about. defensive already does reduce threat btw.

I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Melee threat per swing is a function of weapon ratio, haste, dmg bonus only. Any negative modifier on damage doesn’t apply to hate generation.

If I’m wrong, someone in “the know” please educate me.

[greatdane]

I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Melee threat per swing is a function of weapon ratio, haste, dmg bonus only. Any negative modifier on damage doesn’t apply to hate generation.

If I’m wrong, someone in “the know” please educate me.

That's correct. When you swing a weapon, you generate an amount of aggro equal to weapon_dmg_stat + char_dmg_bonus. Doesn't matter how hard you hit, or even if you hit at all. A discipline that makes you do less damage (or more) per swing, or hit less (or more) often, does not affect how much aggro you generate. A swing is a swing, no matter if you miss, hit for low damage, hit for max damage, or crit. The only exception is crippling blows since they also stun, which generates additional aggro.

[bobjonesp99]

you are correct that misses still generate threat, but in my experience evasive and defensive still have a negative impact on threat generation.

[Snaggles]

If defensive discs reduced threat by 35% rogues would be the first to notice after being sent to their bind locations.

I’ve always known it to be what Troxx said. Basically every swing gives the aggro of its potential damage. Ratio, damage bonus, and haste plus good procs for the spell part of the puzzle.

[bobjonesp99]

If defensive discs reduced threat by 35% rogues would be the first to notice after being sent to their bind locations.

I’ve always known it to be what Troxx said. Basically every swing gives the aggro of its potential damage. Ratio, damage bonus, and haste plus good procs for the spell part of the puzzle.

rogues who go in immediately do often pull threat and get sent to their bind locations. usually all raid fights are started with defensive or evasive running already so its not something they would suddenly notice after it gets clicked. frequently tanks built threat on raid mobs using clickies like scepter or totem prior to engaging.


yes the formula for threat per swing that everyone quotes and assumes to be correct (including myself) looks good on paper and seems to be accurate, but nobody can seem to confirm via code that is how its implemented. just like the rumor that the damage bonus also applies to your offhand for threat calculations (which would mean nevs horn is the best offhand in the game for warrior threat). furthermore, nobody has ever shown me via code exactly how those disciplines effects are implemented, i.e. is the damage reduction applied to your weapons damage stat? or maybe the damage stat + weapon bonus? or maybe the damage calculated after a successful hit. even the wiki documentation of the effects of various disciplines have ?'s associated with the quantity of the effect.


so unless you have tested it using identical setups on 60 warriors to a high hp mob its just as much "gut" feeling as me telling you in my experience tanking it does seem to have an impact on threat generation. it is entirely possible it is not the case, but i have seen to many "unexplainable" flips of mobs on things that we "KNOW" shouldnt matter... like ive seen a melee using 2h primal pull agro from a tank using 2 high white damage threat ratio weapons (with agro procs) immediately after the melee procd avatar (which is assumed to be virtually no threat generation at all).

[Troxx]

you are correct that misses still generate threat, but in my experience evasive and defensive still have a negative impact on threat generation.

Evasive and defensive do not decrease threat production. It is how it has worked on live since 1999 and how it has worked on p99 since its inception.

[Vivitron]

I'm a little curious how different warriors feel in groups on the recentish aggro patch. Is it easier for warriors to hold aggro over slows at lower levels now?

but i have seen to many "unexplainable" flips of mobs on things that we "KNOW" shouldnt matter... like ive seen a melee using 2h primal pull agro from a tank using 2 high white damage threat ratio weapons (with agro procs) immediately after the melee procd avatar (which is assumed to be virtually no threat generation at all).

When there's a pet on the mob, a caster passing the tank's aggro from range without passing the pet's aggro can cause the mob to flip to other melees in range. It's not a common situation in raids -- maybe most plausible on Statue -- but I have definitely been in groups where my enchanter's slow aggro got a monk or rogue hit, and it looks like a tank vs dps aggro issue to anyone not watching for this bug.

[Snaggles]

Â…so unless you have tested it using identical setups on 60 warriors to a high hp mob its just as much "gut" feeling as me telling you in my experience tanking it does seem to have an impact on threat generation. it is entirely possible it is not the case, but i have seen to many "unexplainable" flips of mobs on things that we "KNOW" shouldnt matter... like ive seen a melee using 2h primal pull agro from a tank using 2 high white damage threat ratio weapons (with agro procs) immediately after the melee procd avatar (which is assumed to be virtually no threat generation at all).

Generally the person with the challenging theory has to prove it over the established belief. That’s how science works.

For sake of argument though 35% is a lot of threat to drop and not notice. People use discs all the time when grinding, I did with my warrior. If you have jboots fade that’s also 35% and it’s quite noticeable. Or just unequip your offhand to see about much a 35% drop in threat is.

Also full tilt rogues are creating as much threat as a warrior before backstab. Procs and evade are barely keeping them alive. Procs and evades are consistent. Disc fades on a tank towards the end and the mob can still flip easily. With more aggro I’m not sure why at that point it would happen.

Really, I don’t care. You don’t have to convince me. I just don’t buy it.

[Penish]

since aggro changes white damage is king, get your mosscovered twigs if you want to be a real tank, gg

[Troxx]

I still maintain that Frostreaver is one of THE BEST threat setups for warriors in the game. At 42/43 and with triple attack on main hand it has superior white damage threat along with a stun + dd proc. Benefits of superior 2h damage output also apply.

I still think that red epic + nev horn is in the lead over time.

It is a shame there wasn’t a single warrior useable ToV 2hander with a stun proc.

[Toxigen]

I still maintain that Frostreaver is one of THE BEST threat setups for warriors in the game. At 42/43 and with triple attack on main hand it has superior white damage threat along with a stun + dd proc. Benefits of superior 2h damage output also apply.

I still think that red epic + nev horn is in the lead over time.

It is a shame there wasn’t a single warrior useable ToV 2hander with a stun proc.

Dain axe is easily the best bang-for-your-dkp weapon in the game.

Its probably gone up in average price now but when I got it dirt cheap I had a one-way ticket to Valuetown.

[Zuranthium]

I'm genuinely curious if there's data to support warrior DPS being significantly more than knight DPS, especially for groups. Knights are on the same damage table as warriors and also benefit from the 2h bonus now.

Reminder to everyone:

Top Warrior DPS = Using a 2-hander and swapping to an offhand weapon inbetween those attack swings to get extra attacks.

Optimally played Warrior is far more DPS. Dual wield, higher skillcaps, critical hits (enhanced by berserk mode), and also triple attack at 60.

[Toxigen]

nobody is weapon swapping for more dps on a war lol

[Troxx]

nobody is weapon swapping for more dps on a war lol

Yeah … I’d rather gouge out my eyes with a spork.

[Toxigen]

i could see doing it on a monk in a tight spot where respawns are coming and you need the area cleared asap or something

but thats about it

[Troxx]

I’m not sure I could manage the swap with all the clicking involved to not miss mainhand swings. Even if I could manage the clicks with duxaui … shoot me in the face that would be annoying.

Or is there some legal/legit way to set up one button weapon swaps on p99 Im not aware of?

On monk it’s just as easy as unequipping and equipping your mainhand to get that extra round of offhand attacks with epic.

[Toxigen]

I’m not sure I could manage the swap with all the clicking involved to not miss mainhand swings. Even if I could manage the clicks with duxaui … shoot me in the face that would be annoying.

Or is there some legal/legit way to set up one button weapon swaps on p99 Im not aware of?

On monk it’s just as easy as unequipping and equipping your mainhand to get that extra round of offhand attacks with epic.

yeah, monks the only one it makes sense on and even then to do it regularly is silly

[Jimjam]

Sometimes it is useful to fish for crips with the offhand (fist) but the clicks required to unequip primary, equip secondary and revert seems too risky to miss a big primary round / riposte for the payoff of an extra hand offhand round with weapon. Maybe if you unequiped the 2hander by blocking primary making attacks with a firebeetle eye or similar… maybe ??? But you’r still miss ripostes.

[Gloomlord]

Weapon swapping only seems viable if you're swapping to a shield in offhand to bash a spell cast, or if you're a Bard modifying your songs with instruments. You could possibly argue swapping a higher damage dagger for bigger backstabs as Rogue, but you better be on the money to not mess up an attack round.

[Troxx]

Yeah weapon swapping for anything but proccing an important effect (snare/slow/etc) on a warrior is never something I would consider.

[Zuranthium]

yeah, monks the only one it makes sense on and even then to do it regularly is silly

It's not silly whatsoever, it's a big DPS increase and not hard at all on monk. Everquest melee combat involves almost nothing, clicking the weapon on and off is barely anything compared to other games.

the clicks required to unequip primary, equip secondary and revert seems too risky to miss a big primary round

Use a high delay two-hander and get good.

[Guesty07]

Anything other than a monk isn't feasible

[bobjonesp99]

it doesnt work on anything but a monk because the offhand attack happens as soon as you take the 2h out of your hand.... in other words, you cant swap from a 2h to an offhand before the offhand swings. monks are the only ones who have a decent offhand ratio when using epic.

[Zuranthium]

it doesnt work on anything but a monk because the offhand attack happens as soon as you take the 2h out of your hand.... in other words, you cant swap from a 2h to an offhand before the offhand swings. monks are the only ones who have a decent offhand ratio when using epic.

Wrong in all regards. You turn auto attack off to do it.

The monk epic decreases the amount of damage a Monk does when clicking their two-hander on and off, since the raw attack damage of fists is higher without epic equipped.

[Troxx]

I'm having a hard time telling if you're being serious ...

[Guesty07]

I legit couldn't turn attack off, take 2h out, swap in inventory with offhand, equip that, then swap back without missing a 2h attack

[Guesty07]

Where as a monk can simply take 2h off, then re click it back on

[Duik]

I thort this game has been worked out 10 years ago?
So far ive seen people say weapon swaps (leave auto attack ON) for extra dps is da ducks nuts.
Weapon swaps (but click auto attack OFF between swapping) for extra dps is da ducks nuts.
Doesnt work for anyone but monks.
Works for all melee.
Now epic REDUCES fist damage, but only when clicking 2hander off.

I think ill roll up a wizard and just use h2h. Equiping str and minus mana armors.

[Naethyn]

This doesn't work for me.

[Toxigen]

This doesn't work for me.

One of the best warriors on the server here, folks.

Case closed. Aint nobody got time for weapon swapping except for the turbo-nerd monks.

[skulldudes]

option 1) actively weapon swap for ? more dps; nobody notices or even gives a shit regardless lol

option 2) take it ez, eat some snacks, rip ur bong, pet ur puppies and/or kitties while you perform the exact same in-game function :o

[Zuranthium]

I legit couldn't turn attack off, take 2h out, swap in inventory with offhand, equip that, then swap back without missing a 2h attack

Keep bag open next to weapon slots on hotkey panel. Immediately after primary attack, click off auto and that weapon, replace with the offhand weapon sitting right next to it, press the offhand attack key, then immediately reswap to the primary weapon and turn auto attack on.

Even when max hasted there's over 2 seconds to do it. You could practice with a higher delay 2H or maybe less haste to start with.

Not using auto attack at all is also possible. Can manually hit the main hand attack button until it happens, then do the swap. That could help in giving a better feel for the swap timing, instead of waiting for the auto attack to timer to pop on the primary attack swing and needing to turn auto attack on/off.

nobody notices or even gives a shit regardless lol

Any DPS log notices, and I absolutely noticed in 1999 when the best Warriors were doing this. It's certainly easier to do without max haste, but still completely possible even then, and WILL significantly change what a given character is able to accomplish. People have complained about Warriors not being able to get aggro well enough. Guess what, if you are doing significantly more DPS, you're going to be building aggro better.

Now epic REDUCES fist damage, but only when clicking 2hander off.

Epic reduces base fist damage in any case, setting it to 9 instead of 14 (for a Level 60 monk). The epic greatly increases the attack speed of fists, but that's irrelevant for the "2-hander dual wield" method. Hence, having epic equipped reduces a Monk's maximum possible DPS, at least when they are already buffed with the Ranger +ATK buff, which doesn't stack with the epic +ATK buff.

[enjchanter]

All I've learned so far is that even the sweetiest most complex rotation in p99 is basically just pressing 2 buttons and clicking ur mouse

[Gloomlord]

This really isn't a game where milliseconds count for something, apart from Bard doing an AoE kite.

[Troxx]

Zuranthium, you are just wrong.

My 2hs is 43 delay - works out to a swing every 2.15 seconds properly hasted.

2 seconds is not a long time.

There is no way anyone can reliably turn off attack, weapon swap from an open bag … hit … swap back and get that next swing in any given round. Much less do it over and over and over and over and over while fighting. Every missed mainhand swing opportunity is a lost 42/43 swing that can triple attack and has that sweet ass 2h damage bonus. Never mind missed chances to proc a dd stun.

You’re wrong.

Period.

You’d be better off pulling the monk trick for an offhand punch for negligible damage. At least then you wouldn’t miss out on mainhand swings


Edit: even if it were possible it ain’t worth the 99.99999% constant clicking to make the marginal gains even close to worthwhile.

Now if we had, say, a 120/120 2 hander … that would be more realistic. Even then fuck all that clicking just to get an extra offhand attack in between rounds. Offhand dps is ass.

[Crede]

Yea I think zuran is just trolling us. Tried the OH thing on my monk in the 30s. Was dumb. If you wipe on a raid because every melee wasn’t swapping out 2h for < 1 dps, you prob deserved to wipe anyway.

[Gloomlord]

Zuranthium, you are just wrong.

My 2hs is 43 delay - works out to a swing every 2.15 seconds properly hasted.

2 seconds is not a long time.

There is no way anyone can reliably turn off attack, weapon swap from an open bag … hit … swap back and get that next swing in any given round. Much less do it over and over and over and over and over while fighting. Every missed mainhand swing opportunity is a lost 42/43 swing that can triple attack and has that sweet ass 2h damage bonus. Never mind missed chances to proc a dd stun.

You’re wrong.

Period.

You’d be better off pulling the monk trick for an offhand punch for negligible damage. At least then you wouldn’t miss out on mainhand swings


Edit: even if it were possible it ain’t worth the 99.99999% constant clicking to make the marginal gains even close to worthwhile.

Now if we had, say, a 120/120 2 hander … that would be more realistic. Even then fuck all that clicking just to get an extra offhand attack in between rounds. Offhand dps is ass.

And if you have high ping, like me, this is even more of a bad idea.

[Infectious]

One of the best warriors on the server here, folks.

Case closed. Aint nobody got time for weapon swapping except for the turbo-nerd monks.

I got an extra 200 damage in though. My guild leader loves me.

[Zuranthium]

My 2hs is 43 delay - works out to a swing every 2.15 seconds properly hasted.

2 seconds is not a long time.

There is no way anyone can reliably turn off attack, weapon swap from an open bag … hit … swap back and get that next swing in any given round. Much less do it over and over and over and over and over while fighting.

Plenty of people are capable. Competitive gamers constantly do more complex inputs than this.

If you're not able to do 5 mouse clicks while barely needing to move the mouse each time in 2+ seconds, that is your own lacking ability.

Doing it constantly without messing up is the harder part, for sure. Like I was talking about, not using auto attack at all is going to be easier for a lot of people. You'll essentially slow down your primary attack very slightly that way, but that's worthwhile if it means performing the sequence correctly, because getting the offhand attacks in is more DPS total. You could also just weapon swap every other attack round, to give yourself the mental/physical space to execute it. That would still be a net benefit.

If you wipe on a raid because every melee wasn’t swapping out 2h for < 1 dps, you prob deserved to wipe anyway.

Offhand damage is far more than 1 dps and it's especially relevant for maximizing DPS at the levels where there's less mainhand damage boost. That's why it was especially noticeable in 1999 when the best Warriors were swapping off their Executioner's Axe and doing offhand attacks inbetween.

[7thGate]

I'm counting 2 button presses and 6 mouse clicks, which is around 240 APM. That's doable, but at StarCraft professional levels to sustain. More people can burst that high, but I'm not one of them; I cap out at 150 or so and can only sustain around 100 max.

[Naethyn]

With max haste I think this is impossible. I swap weapons and gear constantly. I'm not able to do this maneuver successfully without missing 2h damage.

[Guesty07]

Same Naethyn. Not happening

[Vexenu]

Even if it was possible to eke out slightly higher DPS with this method (I'm skeptical), no one is realistically doing this for more than a minute or two at a time for shits and giggles (i.e. for the challenge of maxing their parse). Nobody wants to sustain 240 APM for such a miniscule - and frankly unnoticeable and entirely unneeded - increase in damage.

[Toxigen]

Even if it was possible to eke out slightly higher DPS with this method (I'm skeptical), no one is realistically doing this for more than a minute or two at a time for shits and giggles (i.e. for the challenge of maxing their parse). Nobody wants to sustain 240 APM for such a miniscule - and frankly unnoticeable and entirely unneeded - increase in damage.

amen

[Troxx]

Consensus has been reached. Let’s close down this line of conversation.

[Jimjam]

I can out damage a magician in group using this sustained 5dps strategy.

[enjchanter]

ive been playing my warrior at the DS camp lately and everytime i play him i remember why warriors are an absolutely horrible class

[Toxigen]

ive been playing my warrior at the DS camp lately and everytime i play him i remember why warriors are an absolutely horrible class

Yes, for DS lol.

[Troxx]

I can out damage a magician in group using this sustained 5dps strategy.

Sadly my level 60 warrior ok to mediumly raid geared cannot out dps my 60 group geared mage and pet.

What tricks do you suggest?

:p

[Jimjam]

Sadly my level 60 warrior ok to mediumly raid geared cannot out dps my 60 group geared mage and pet.

What tricks do you suggest?

:p

Group with eueomum mages in KC that don’t send pet in til 70%.

[enjchanter]

Yes, for DS lol.

Doing meh damage while not being able to get a proc to pull aggro

Useless

[Zuranthium]

I'm counting 2 button presses and 6 mouse clicks, which is around 240 APM. That's doable, but at StarCraft professional levels to sustain.

Starcraft players are constantly moving their mouse long distances across the screen. This weapon swapping just requires clicking in the same tiny triangle over and over. Tedious, but mechanically much easier.

Someone should look into programming a macro. Shouldn't be hard to create one for this function. AutoHotkey, etc.

[Snaggles]

Someone should look into programming a macro. Shouldn't be hard to create one for this function. AutoHotkey, etc.

I dont think this is possible using the macro system integrated by the original devs. Anything using external software, whether linked to an auxiliary device (keyboard/mouse) or not, is a bannable offense.

Lots of bards got permabanned years back for this same crap. Unfortunately some of the most "elite raiders" have allegedly scripted and cheated for years but apparently they are smarter than the average basic bard (even if barely).

My opinion is that this via manual control is just it's not a sustainable method even if done properly (which is difficult). Any error and you are missing MH swings and losing massive dps. It's just better to level up a bane wizard or re-roll a rogue.

[Jimjam]

I found my client has pretty bad click detection, especially when executed in quick succession. I wouldn't trust it for this task. I'd trust automation even less!

Maybe if someone had hacked /band back in...

[7thGate]

Starcraft players are constantly moving their mouse long distances across the screen. This weapon swapping just requires clicking in the same tiny triangle over and over. Tedious, but mechanically much easier.

Someone should look into programming a macro. Shouldn't be hard to create one for this function. AutoHotkey, etc.

You still have to accurately click points on screen. Starcraft players also have a higher number of keypresses and there are plenty of mouse clicks that are close together while microing fights.

240 APM is possible, but extremely aggressive. Very few people are going to be able to do this successfully.

I do suspect that if you can do this very well the impact is moderate, not trivial. From what I remember, Jayya's offhand is about 25 dps, and as long as you can get a high delay offhander with good ratio (Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn maybe?) you can probably add ~20 dps if you never screw up. I just don't think most people can do this.

[Toxigen]

Nobody is trying to play EQ like a SC2 pro lmao.

[bobjonesp99]

ive been playing my warrior at the DS camp lately and everytime i play him i remember why warriors are an absolutely horrible class

i cant really disagree more with this. if you have a 60 warrior with all the bells and whistles, it is insane what they can do. i did the solo artist grandmaster challenge without using a single wort pot click or reaper charge... that included killing solo killing a cliff golem, a black reaver, king tranix, magi rokyl, warlord skarlan, mortiferous protector.

i was able to deal with the pathing mob you have to keep down to hold the DS camp mostly no problem with only self buffs. trunch of doom + primal + sword of rile + fungi + 41 haste + eyepatch haste + evasive on cooldown is nasty.

can you do what a solo enchanter, shaman, or necro can do? maybe not, but you can do a lot they cant do, and unless you are by yourself, you can make the survivability of any group go up massively. it is comparably casual too, instead of dealing with pet breaks and crit resists.

[Jimjam]

Just trunch, runedblade,evasive,30% haste was crazy on my green war. Can’t imagine what the full kit including DS would be like. Did you upload any vids?

[enjchanter]

i cant really disagree more with this. if you have a 60 warrior with all the bells and whistles, it is insane what they can do. i did the solo artist grandmaster challenge without using a single wort pot click or reaper charge... that included killing solo killing a cliff golem, a black reaver, king tranix, magi rokyl, warlord skarlan, mortiferous protector.

i was able to deal with the pathing mob you have to keep down to hold the DS camp mostly no problem with only self buffs. trunch of doom + primal + sword of rile + fungi + 41 haste + eyepatch haste + evasive on cooldown is nasty.

can you do what a solo enchanter, shaman, or necro can do? maybe not, but you can do a lot they cant do, and unless you are by yourself, you can make the survivability of any group go up massively. it is comparably casual too, instead of dealing with pet breaks and crit resists.

Bro I almost can't think of 1 singular thing my enchanter can't do that a warrior could. My enchanter would unironically be a better group tank even

There is nothing nasty about the warrior you described
You're basically flexing being able to kill 1 slowed blue mob and all you need is like 9 specific pieces of gear and popping evasive (read: immunity to blue mobs)

[enjchanter]

Just trunch, runedblade,evasive,30% haste was crazy on my green war. Can’t imagine what the full kit including DS would be like. Did you upload any vids?

Do you unironically want to watch a video of him auto attacking a mob

[Jimjam]

Do you unironically want to watch a video of him auto attacking a mob

I mean the only difference to playing my own warrior is i’m pressing the play button instead of the auto attack button x

[Toxigen]

i cant really disagree more with this. if you have a 60 warrior with all the bells and whistles, it is insane what they can do. i did the solo artist grandmaster challenge without using a single wort pot click or reaper charge... that included killing solo killing a cliff golem, a black reaver, king tranix, magi rokyl, warlord skarlan, mortiferous protector.

i was able to deal with the pathing mob you have to keep down to hold the DS camp mostly no problem with only self buffs. trunch of doom + primal + sword of rile + fungi + 41 haste + eyepatch haste + evasive on cooldown is nasty.

can you do what a solo enchanter, shaman, or necro can do? maybe not, but you can do a lot they cant do, and unless you are by yourself, you can make the survivability of any group go up massively. it is comparably casual too, instead of dealing with pet breaks and crit resists.

lol ok bub

[bobjonesp99]

lol ok bub

i mean i have a decked out 60 enchanter and its great. def the best at solo/group content in the game (short of shaman or necro for some specific encounters). that said, youre just one crit resist and one charm break away from getting owned and having a problematic CR. thats just what its like when you play the high risk high reward playstyle of an enchanter.

take the DS camp for instance. as an enchanter you can solo it. that said, most people trying have a good chance of getting a crit resist and dying. even with a 60 cleric, there is a non-zero chance of a bad crit resist when you paci the room and you end up getting owned. by comparison a 60 warrior with a 60 shaman can likely agro that whole room and just root, slow, kill it without much problem.

hell even as a decked out enchanter you need to preslow a green mob just to hammer without it killing you. meanwhile a 60 warrior can ot hammer off juggs without breaking a sweat.

im not pretending a warrior is better at soloing than an enchanter. saying they are "an absolutely horrible class" is such a bad take its laughable. when i camped DS for a month i only used my enchanter when we didnt have a monk/necro to pull. otherwise it was a way easier/more chill camp to do with a warrior and literally anyone else.

[enjchanter]

So warrior being enabled by a good class makes it good
Fair enough

[bobjonesp99]

how about this. in almost every scenario in which i am camping with another individual, id almost prefer to use my warrior. it means it will probably be easier for all involved. is it MORE capable than what a solo enchanter can do? no, but its WAY more certain, and way more relaxed.

[Crede]

Yea bud you can’t say warriors kickass solo then say you’d take them with a sham over a solo enchanter lol.

If we’re talking like playing pure duo still don’t see the warrior value. Better off with sk/monk. Or better yet, just go enc/cleric.

[Infectious]

how about this. in almost every scenario in which i am camping with another individual, id almost prefer to use my warrior. it means it will probably be easier for all involved. is it MORE capable than what a solo enchanter can do? no, but its WAY more certain, and way more relaxed.

Actually a crit resist, your just going to direct ae mez the whole train coming. Then root, mez and everything down. You can target and lull from all the way around the hall.

You bragging about clearing the hallway roamer? lol
A monk can keep the whole camp down solo.

[Zuranthium]

I dont think this is possible using the macro system integrated by the original devs. Anything using external software, whether linked to an auxiliary device (keyboard/mouse) or not, is a bannable offense.

Lots of bards got permabanned years back for this same crap. Unfortunately some of the most "elite raiders" have allegedly scripted and cheated for years but apparently they are smarter than the average basic bard (even if barely).

Not sure what the Bard thing was but it sounds like more of a noticeable automated thing. I highly doubt melee weapon swapping assist would be punished.

I do suspect that if you can do this very well the impact is moderate, not trivial. From what I remember, Jayya's offhand is about 25 dps, and as long as you can get [a high damage offhand with correct delay timer] (Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn) you can probably add ~20 dps if you never screw up.

Yes, exactly.

[enjchanter]

The long and short of it is that warriors are basically just not good at soloing, grouping, have no utility and are gear dependant amongst the worst of them.

When I play a warrior I feel like I'm losing in every conceivable way and rogue is the only class I feel compares to how tragic it is

I made an epic warrior and thought I just didn't like the race choice I made. Rerolled as dark elf , got another set of epics and it wasn't even worth the journey to 60

[Infectious]

The long and short of it is that warriors are basically just not good at soloing, grouping, have no utility and are gear dependant amongst the worst of them.

When I play a warrior I feel like I'm losing in every conceivable way and rogue is the only class I feel compares to how tragic it is

I made an epic warrior and thought I just didn't like the race choice I made. Rerolled as dark elf , got another set of epics and it wasn't even worth the journey to 60

Warriors under certain circumstances are over powered. Just many people dont want to sit in zero mode and do anything risky. A warrior in zero mode duel wielding does insane damage. This is again only a circumstance that a warrior can shine.

[enjchanter]

Hol up im about to go zero mode

[Vexenu]

I made an epic warrior and thought I just didn't like the race choice I made. Rerolled as dark elf , got another set of epics and it wasn't even worth the journey to 60
This is like punching yourself in the balls to predictable effect, then doing it again with the other hand while hoping for a different outcome.

[Botten]

Same thing still matters to all group tanks. If your group members can't manage their aggro then they are just as bad as the mage everyone complains about who can't position or pull back their pet. + where is the chanter and/or bard?

HP > STA (to cap) > Weapon Ratio > STR (to cap) > Aura of Battle > AC > MR > DR > PR > CHA > DEX > Rest

There is one class that excels in the most important stats with ease.

Oh Sh!t moments happen in group.

The guy with the most HP and mitigating the damage the most - wins for the duration of time it takes to cast a successful CH or Evac

No other tank gives this confidence in group as a meat shield.

Can ranger, monk, knights tank? Sure.

Whine how easy content is and the tools of the other classes make it more fun or better aggro holders.

Rangers does serious damage, best aggro tools and has best snare. They can always find if the named is up. Content is so easy lets make them tank for days. Only no one does because their HP and mitigation sucks.

Get a warrior meat shield that also takes the least damage. Especially when you don't need or want to worry about whether CH lands in an exp group.

All this thread is doing is making Furor from Fires of Heaven have a chubby from the grave. Next we will see a thread saying monks are better raid tanks.

[Naethyn]

dont forget haste

[bobjonesp99]

Actually a crit resist, your just going to direct ae mez the whole train coming. Then root, mez and everything down. You can target and lull from all the way around the hall.

You bragging about clearing the hallway roamer? lol
A monk can keep the whole camp down solo.

im saying you can hold the camp on a warrior solo without an issue, where as single harm touch gonna eat 1/2 your hp on your solo enchanter on the hallway roamer. you also have to find something to charm. so if you log into the camp you need to paci the roamer, then paci 6 golems, then charm one, then slow/kill break pet all just for a single mob. the entire time and pet break or crit resist could likely end in your death. and ya if you get a crit resist you can just ae mezz the whole pack and hope that one of those 6 lvl 50-54 golems dont get a single resist because if they do, you probably are gonna die.

in comparison you can just log on the warrior with no buffs and kill it no problem.

the discussion wasnt about "what is the best solo class" or "what would be the best duo for this camp". it was the statement that warriors are "an absolutely horrible class"... which is patently false. if you have a geared warrior (which if you are camping DS you probably do) then they are insanely useful for raid and group content.

[sammoHung]

All this thread is doing is making Furor from Fires of Heaven have a chubby from the grave. Next we will see a thread saying monks are better raid tanks.

Block is a broken skill - it routinely blocks upwards of 15% of incoming damage (compared to parry which is around 7-10%) -- so monk will take less damage than warrior with similar level gear, in a group / exp setting. (Outside of evasive, defensive disc).

[enjchanter]

Same thing still matters to all group tanks. If your group members can't manage their aggro then they are just as bad as the mage everyone complains about who can't position or pull back their pet. + where is the chanter and/or bard?

HP > STA (to cap) > Weapon Ratio > STR (to cap) > Aura of Battle > AC > MR > DR > PR > CHA > DEX > Rest

There is one class that excels in the most important stats with ease.

Oh Sh!t moments happen in group.

The guy with the most HP and mitigating the damage the most - wins for the duration of time it takes to cast a successful CH or Evac

No other tank gives this confidence in group as a meat shield.

Can ranger, monk, knights tank? Sure.

Whine how easy content is and the tools of the other classes make it more fun or better aggro holders.

Rangers does serious damage, best aggro tools and has best snare. They can always find if the named is up. Content is so easy lets make them tank for days. Only no one does because their HP and mitigation sucks.

Get a warrior meat shield that also takes the least damage. Especially when you don't need or want to worry about whether CH lands in an exp group.

All this thread is doing is making Furor from Fires of Heaven have a chubby from the grave. Next we will see a thread saying monks are better raid tanks.

Warrior is the only tank that has to even worry about managing their aggro because they are so horrible at it.

Paladins and sks even get to wear a shield so they're arguably more tanky than a warrior. Warriors get evasive so yes that wins but monks pretty much have evasive full time anyway.

A warrior tank gives me the opposite of confidence. A warrior tank makes me think "okay great so I really need to be careful or I'm guaranteed to be dead because our tank couldn't hold aggro if he wanted to"

Also I don't even know what your statement about stats even means. Warriors don't get exclusive buffs or gear that other tanks could get. In fact paladins bring their 200pt hp buff ! Warriors bring nothing

[Guesty07]

Your hate against warriors is weird. They're a great group and raid class. Great.

[Crede]

Warrior is the only tank that has to even worry about managing their aggro because they are so horrible at it.

Paladins and sks even get to wear a shield so they're arguably more tanky than a warrior. Warriors get evasive so yes that wins but monks pretty much have evasive full time anyway.

A warrior tank gives me the opposite of confidence. A warrior tank makes me think "okay great so I really need to be careful or I'm guaranteed to be dead because our tank couldn't hold aggro if he wanted to"

Also I don't even know what your statement about stats even means. Warriors don't get exclusive buffs or gear that other tanks could get. In fact paladins bring their 200pt hp buff ! Warriors bring nothing

Pretty much this. Majority of wipes I’ve seen are because the tank couldn’t hold aggro not because of lacking dps or mitigation. Shame we don’t have more sods floating around to help wars with that. I’d take a sk for 99% of group content. War would only be good if you’re planning to low man stuff that actually requires disc but you’re giving up a lot for those few mobs that are group able and require it.

[Ripqozko]

Pretty much this. Majority of wipes I’ve seen are because the tank couldn’t hold aggro not because of lacking dps or mitigation. Shame we don’t have more sods floating around to help wars with that. I’d take a sk for 99% of group content. War would only be good if you’re planning to low man stuff that actually requires disc but you’re giving up a lot for those few mobs that are group able and require it.

Sorry ya don't got warder loot

[Botten]

Your hate against warriors is weird. They're a great group and raid class. Great.

He needs to hate and make up grievances for the warrior class that has maximums in most stats suited for tanking.

-Calling out that utility and aggro is managed better by other tanks while then whining warrior hp, AC and pinch discs don't matter because an exp group isn't serious. Well then if it isn't serious then it doesn't matter if you have a ranger tank. Remember it is just an exping group -----> it is ridiculously easy.

We have seen this before. Hell, Furor threatened Sony over it and left for WoW.
(Like it wasn't going to happen anyway.)

Think about it a player who has experience, hell, he has played TWO warriors and has gotten the best gear on both.

-He knows his posts are stumbling over are half truths.

Not because he lacks experience.

But because he knows he is the worst type of player.

-A player after two warriors who has trouble tanking and is angered over it.

-A player that feels cheated after the changes to aggro.

-A player that is jealous of the knights who still are looked down on by even monks.

-A player who wants his status back. He feels betrayed and wronged. After all he worked up both warriors. Saying it was just out of stupidity ... no he had pride in his class.

-A player screaming that a Tanking position matters in an Exping group but group Exping is easy.

As others have already noted this thread isn't serious and is just plain wrong. Warriors are great for tanking in exp groups and raids.

[Zuranthium]

Warrior is the only tank that has to even worry about managing their aggro because they are so horrible at it.

A warrior tank gives me the opposite of confidence. A warrior tank makes me think "okay great so I really need to be careful or I'm guaranteed to be dead because our tank couldn't hold aggro if he wanted to"

Warriors don't get exclusive buffs or gear that other tanks could get. In fact paladins bring their 200pt hp buff ! Warriors bring nothing

Managing aggro is not difficult at all, the casters just need to root the MOBs and also blind if needed for summoning level MOBs.

Warriors are capable of doing far more damage than Paladins, making them superior for a group that already has the necessary pulling/survival tools. The Paladin HP buff isn't very relevant, Warriors already have more HP and disciplines. For some weird group compositions a Paladin can be better than a Warrior, but the majority of time I'm going to want a Warrior's superior DPS.

[bobjonesp99]

Warrior is the only tank that has to even worry about managing their aggro because they are so horrible at it.

Paladins and sks even get to wear a shield so they're arguably more tanky than a warrior. Warriors get evasive so yes that wins but monks pretty much have evasive full time anyway.

A warrior tank gives me the opposite of confidence. A warrior tank makes me think "okay great so I really need to be careful or I'm guaranteed to be dead because our tank couldn't hold aggro if he wanted to"

Also I don't even know what your statement about stats even means. Warriors don't get exclusive buffs or gear that other tanks could get. In fact paladins bring their 200pt hp buff ! Warriors bring nothing

this is such a based take.

any warrior worth his salt has no agro issues; a bag full of forlorn totems means this is a non issue.

warriors have loads of weapons that can tash, snare, root, slow, rune, avatar, generate serious threat, and do solid DPS.

they have clickies that can allow them to sow and invis themselves and others, levitate, provide damage shields, provide attack buffs, see invis, etc, etc, etc.

they have an insanely overpowered disciplines that allows them to increase their hp pool by ~30% for 3 minutes every 7 minutes.

are they better than every other tank in every scenario? no. but on the whole its not even close. this guy just doesnt know how to play a warrior.

[enjchanter]

Lmao

So once again warrior is a great class as long as it has everyone else bend over backwards to support it and ensuring you farm consumables to perform the baseline role you're expected to fill

There's nothing to know about playing warrior because all you can do is farm your stupid clickies that do thing knights can do on their own and auto attack a mob and hope you proc.

[Naethyn]

Evasive is 3 mins on with only 4 mins off. Warriors should be using this every time they take damage.

[Botten]

Lmao

So once again warrior is a great class as long as it has everyone else bend over backwards to support it and ensuring you farm consumables to perform the baseline role you're expected to fill

There's nothing to know about playing warrior because all you can do is farm your stupid clickies that do thing knights can do on their own and auto attack a mob and hope you proc.

So admittedly you have these items. You got the epics and the gear.

So you are better than knights.

'nerf warriors with good gear out shining knight in easy Exp groups. :rolleyes:

*look I did the same non-sense you did.

Now go start a third warrior.

[Naethyn]

Warrior is a lot like a mage blade in other games. We have access to more unique weapons and clicks than any other class. At the start a warrior can do very little. By the end a warrior can do just about everything.

[Jimjam]

Lmao

So once again warrior is a great class as long as it has everyone else bend over backwards to support it and ensuring you farm consumables to perform the baseline role you're expected to fill

There's nothing to know about playing warrior because all you can do is farm your stupid clickies that do thing knights can do on their own and auto attack a mob and hope you proc.

“Warriors are bad in group cos their group mates provide synergy.”

[Snaggles]

Absolutely no way a knight with a shield takes hits as well as a warrior even off disc. The issue is, the npc’s outside raiding where it’s an issue (ie can do vs can’t do) are few and far between.

I’ve said it before, the warrior is a 1-ton dually pickup and the knight is a half ton pickup. Either will do light jobs or even get you to work with a shiny trailer hitch. Only a few situations the bigger truck is “needed” and in general use it can be a bit more cumbersome. Just play (or drive) what you want. Having to constantly justify your decision is obnoxious. Try caring less about what EQ nerds think?

[Philistine]

I feel like warriors with spells or other simple ways to hold agro would just be too OP. They get to do virtually all raid boss main tanking in Velious. This is worth the sacrifice of other utility/ease of use IMHO.

[Zuranthium]

Lmao

So once again warrior is a great class as long as it has everyone else bend over backwards to support it and ensuring you farm consumables to perform the baseline role you're expected to fill

You don't need consumables and simply casting root is in no way "bending over backwards".

[enjchanter]

A paladin could just cast root for himself


/shrug

[Zuranthium]

A paladin could just cast root for himself

That doesn't accomplish anything better.

Root is cheap, casters in the party should have no problem doing it. A Warrior's superior DPS in comparison to a Paladin is easily worth the mana spent to cast roots.

[enjchanter]

Atleast paladins can get good use out of aob unlike warriors

[plzrelax]

I found the monk offhand punching to be a lot more effective before I got my epic. Those 15 damage fists or whatever really drop bombs. But the 9 damage fist feels pretty underwhelming.

I enjoy tanking with my paladin and I always insist the warrior in the group stays berserk

[PatChapp]

Join a group with a mage, they use the earth pet you keep aggro
Two classes with their own problems that wind up working well.
I dunno I never had problems with agro in groups on my warrior, sometimes the rogue took a few hits now and then who cares.
Didn't get his epics til 60,but I don't think they would have made much difference in xp groups.

[Gloomlord]

"Warrior does more DPS than a knight! That totally makes up for their lack of on demand snap aggro and other utility!"

Yeah, no. Why would I bring a Warrior for DPS? I'd get a Rogue, Monk, Magician, Necromancer or Enchanter for the DPS. Also, I'd like to point out that it's only until 60 that Warriors get triple attack. Before that time, there is pretty much no reason to bring a warrior unless that discipline means tackling a mob you couldn't otherwise, which is not the overwhelming majority of single group encounters.