Everquest's Internal dice mechanic - anyone know?

[TheRusty]

So for a long time I've been working on a project; I want to homebrew up a TTRPG version of EverQuest for my friends. While I know of the D20 TTRPG from 2001, I really feel it's Everquest in name only (and even then only barely)

While I think I can get most of the design done, I have one hurdle; I want the dice system to be as close to "authentic" as possible, but I have no idea how that would actually work.

First hurdle is just, what kind of dice system would it even use? My first thought is simply a percentage / D100 based system, since that has the advantage of being easy and seems to tie in with the /roll command in-game (I would guess that command uses a number string "randomizer" running in the background for all actions in the game, but, idk for certain)

But this is kinda tripped up by the stats themselves; How do you figure 255 Strength, 250 Blacksmithing into a percentile-based system, for example? Does it operate on thresholds, where every three points (or whatever) adds +1 to the potential outcome? It seems a little odd to have numbers like this if that's how it works.

So I guess the question is, does anyone have insights or understanding on how 1999 Era Everquest works "behind the scenes," how it determines outcomes of actions?

[Duik]

Looking at eqemu source code in the various places (fairly well commented) will give insights. Depends how keen you are at scouring c++ source code (or even if you can).

Chances of success in various tradeskills are quite well understood here i believe so maybe check out the tradeskill area here.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics offers some ideas of how shit works.
Others here may have better answers for you.

[Ciderpress]

I don't know anything about coding but there's kind of a common superstition that rng on p99 is "streaky". How you would ever determine that's true VS just really bad or good luck is above my pay grade.

Anecdotally when foraging for the druid epic I did hit a run of like 50+ "roots" in a row, when there are several other items foraging should produce beside the epic piece you're looking for.

[loramin]

I think you're on a doomed quest.

Human beings can only roll so many dice, and those dice can only go up to d20 (or maybe d100, but it's a bit impractical). But computers can roll much larger "dice", ... like say a 255-sided die ... and if necessary they can do so many times just for a single "round" of combat. That's what EQ does.

In other words, trying to copy a computer-based "dice" system for a human RPG system is a fool's errand. Instead, you should either design around weird dice (eg. divide everything by ten, round off, and use a 25-sided die (https://www.diceemporium.com/product-category/25-sided-dice/)) ... or just adjust for the d20, like every other RPG does.

[Ekco]

https://i0.wp.com/waynesbooks.games/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Everquest-RPG-a-PHB-cover-image.jpg?resize=816%2C612&ssl=1

just steal whatever system they used if it doesn't suck, and i assume it's okay because there's like 30 different EQ ttrpg books. someone was buying it, every indie ttrpg dev is always trying to reinvent the wheel, it's d20 or star wars d6 system

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Dc7fc5qfwq8l8dHOOZwwM_fPqPpBTYIDZug1Tyb57tyoj01glg phB9hY5tRAu3dHL-ND7R82Q-fB5QdDd7zY3maWh_LcSEgl-qDaZvy85ykJqQK4kJ2kWMBNN7Ntra9XZbs63kTm

nobody has come up with anything better in 45 years.

[Reiwa]

I think you're on a doomed quest.

Human beings can only roll so many dice, and those dice can only go up to d20 (or maybe d100, but it's a bit impractical). But computers can roll much larger "dice", ... like say a 255-sided die ... and if necessary they can do so many times just for a single "round" of combat. That's what EQ does.

In other words, trying to copy a computer-based "dice" system for a human RPG system is a fool's errand. Instead, you should either design around weird dice (eg. divide everything by ten, round off, and use a 25-sided die (https://www.diceemporium.com/product-category/25-sided-dice/)) ... or just adjust for the d20, like every other RPG does.

Aren't there only 20 possible "hits" for a particular weapon's damage?

Not disagreeing.

[shovelquest]

AFAIK when you design your character you put stats into it like, what zone you want to start in, what race, what your stats are... and how much luck you'll have.

If you made the luck stat too low, then when you do /random while your avatar is playing "everquest", you get lower scores than someone who dumped a bunch of luck stats in their avatars soul build in heaven before being born.

[Tann]

But this is kinda tripped up by the stats themselves; How do you figure 255 Strength, 250 Blacksmithing into a percentile-based system, for example? Does it operate on thresholds, where every three points (or whatever) adds +1 to the potential outcome? It seems a little odd to have numbers like this if that's how it works.

have never looked at the source code but it could be as simple as a roll + bonuses to see if it was a success. like how D&D works for chance to hit on an attack (I think), you roll vs the targets AC, then add in any bonuses from your class/gear.. if the result is higher than the targets AC, you hit em!

crafting could be similar, there might be a target number you need to hit in order for the craft to be successful. strength improves success change right? maybe its str over 10, so your target success is 95, roll a D100 + that 255str/10, you could roll as low as 70 on the dice and still succeed with that strength bonus saving you.

again, no idea how they coded EQ but that's how i've been doing it in my silly projects.


I don't know anything about coding but there's kind of a common superstition that rng on p99 is "streaky". How you would ever determine that's true VS just really bad or good luck is above my pay grade.

that's how randomness works, streaks and patterns. can flip a coin 100 times and can get streaks of 10, 15, or 20 heads in a row.. or it could be swapping back and forth the hole time.

[Ciderpress]

that's how randomness works, streaks and patterns. can flip a coin 100 times and can get streaks of 10, 15, or 20 heads in a row.. or it could be swapping back and forth the hole time.

Right but there's some consensus that digital rng can never really be truly random. I don't know much more about it than that, I've heard people say it a lot.

It seems like it wouldn't really be that hard to devise a system that appears random and actually isn't. Even if it's 99% random and 1% determined, it would still appear pretty random. So a streak emerging isn't necessarily to be trusted as just being an organic outlier.

[loramin]

Right but there's some consensus that digital rng can never really be truly random. I don't know much more about it than that, I've heard people say it a lot.

It seems like it wouldn't really be that hard to devise a system that appears random and actually isn't. Even if it's 99% random and 1% determined, it would still appear pretty random. So a streak emerging isn't necessarily to be trusted as just being an organic outlier.

Computers can't create a number that is truly random because they can't "roll dice": they have to rely on math and a "seed" number that's non-random (eg. the current time in milliseconds). In theory, if you know the algorithm and the seed you could generate the exact same number a computer generates, which has repercussions for things like cyber security.

However, when it comes to computer games (or just about any other practical application of randomness), computer-generated random numbers are plenty random.

[Ciderpress]

Computers can't create a number that is truly random because they can't "roll dice": they have to rely on math and a "seed" number that's non-random (eg. the current time in milliseconds). In theory, if you know the algorithm and the seed you could generate the exact same number a computer generates, which has repercussions for things like cyber security.

However, when it comes to computer games (or just about any other practical application of randomness), computer-generated random numbers are plenty random.

Yeah that makes perfect sense, but I still get pretty paranoid when pained soul takes me 70 hours and the next guy gets it in one spawn!

That paranoia is part of the fabric of the game though haha

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Lol take how you guys wonder about RNG in a game like Everquest

Then multiply it by about tenfold, and you have how bad it was when I was competitive in the ranked mode of the digital card game, hearthstone

It didn’t help that there had been some leak about a patent that supposedly was a way to tweak the outcomes of certain events and that patent was held by blizzard’s parent company or something

There was every day when I was playing like 2-3 new threads about how the game was purposefully not letting people draw legendary (the rarest and usually the most powerful) cards from packs due to not spending enough money. How people who just spent money would notice streaks of pulling good cards and claim rigged system

That and then during matches believing that the streaks of bad cards was blizzard trying to keep them at or below a certain rating. But the funny thing was they would never say streaks of good cards was blizzard. That was all their skill

[shovelquest]

Yeah that makes perfect sense, but I still get pretty paranoid when pained soul takes me 70 hours and the next guy gets it in one spawn!

That paranoia is part of the fabric of the game though haha

shoulda put more points into luck in the game of life character creator :o

[Ciderpress]

shoulda put more points into luck in the game of life character creator :o

I wish I could re-roll as a slightly taller guy. People think there's a stigma against "short guys" but it's more like you aren't allowed to be even remotely close to the same height as the chick.

A 5'11 hot chick wants a 7'5 fairytale giant as a boyfriend. Sorry, 6'1 dudes who thought you're "tall".

[Oakwynd]

Ah sure now, which stats do ya reckon are pullin’ the strings when it comes to bumpin' up your skill in a tradeskill, eh?

And, for makin' a proper item, what kind of statistics be standin’ behind ya givin’ you a fighting chance?

But tell me this, which tradeskill would you say is the absolute devil to level up, the one that’d have ya pulling your hair out?

[Ciderpress]

I kinda fantasize about a UO-EQ hybrid emu server where it's everquest, but there are no prefab classes and you just make a build based on what you choose to put points into up to a certain max number of points. The metas that could come out of that...

May have\probably has been done but I'm not aware of it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Aren't there only 20 possible "hits" for a particular weapon's damage?

Not disagreeing.

For NPCs yes, there are only 20 unique damage values they can roll. Players are different. My 60 SK with 255 STR has up to 200 unique damage values with Epic (40 weapon damage). This will change based on your STR, Weapon Damage, and at least one other factor I am not 100% sure about. I think it's level and/or skill level.

[Reiwa]

For NPCs yes, there are only 20 unique damage values they can roll. Players are different. My 60 SK with 255 STR has up to 200 unique damage values with Epic (40 weapon damage). This will change based on your STR, Weapon Damage, and at least one other factor I am not 100% sure about. I think it's level and/or skill level.

Glad I didn't just make that up. 50% chance.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Duik]

Ah sure now, which stats do ya reckon are pullin’ the strings when it comes to bumpin' up your skill in a tradeskill, eh?

And, for makin' a proper item, what kind of statistics be standin’ behind ya givin’ you a fighting chance?

But tell me this, which tradeskill would you say is the absolute devil to level up, the one that’d have ya pulling your hair out?

Its widely known what stats help with tradeskills.

Smithing when you still needed blue diamonds to make cultural armor.

Hair plug companies payed EQ devs for that one.

[Ciderpress]

It always bugs me how arbitrary it is which items stack and which don't. The tedium of tradeskills and particular recipes is made so much worse by not knowing how many stupid free slots you need to just hold the materials. Not to mention there's no weight limit to bags, but there is a size limit, but there's also an arbitrary count limit of 20 per slot if the item is stackable, oh and also you can't put containers inside other containers for no clear reason. Total hodgepodge of units and how they interface.

[TheRusty]

After reading up on some stuff, it appears to be...

• Ability Scores don't actually have any effect on determining the outcome of an action (a tradeskill click, an attack, etc) Instead they affect some base mechanics (damage range, base AC / HP / MANA, skillup chance)

• Skills Are where everything "actionable" is. Basically the game sets a "difficulty" based on the gap between your skill rating, and the target number (A tradeskill item's skill level, an enemy's armor class or spell resist, etc) and then "Rolls Dice" against that difficulty. The higher you get against the difficulty in combat, the better your outcome (Closer to damage cap for spells and attacks, or crits for Warriors / Wizards).

• There is an "critical failure" system in there as well, where if your roll is low enough, you fizzle your spell, miss a swing, or fail a tradeskill combine even on a trivial opponent or item. This seems to have various modifiers and limitations; School Specialization reduces fizzle chance, and if your skill rating outclasses the Difficulty Number enough, you'll just always succeed (it seems to be that if the difference is 200 or more). There does not appear to be a "critical success" chance, beyond obviously criticals on warrior attacks and wizard spells. Essentially, for most "actions" you have a maximum of 99% success chance, unless you supremely outclass the target number.

In terms of actual "dice," who the heck knows, I would guess that EQ uses a 0 - 999 roll, basically a percentile check x10, given the likely preference for a "round" number, and the fact that the possible gap between skill and target number is at least 255. it may be a smaller range, but I don't think exact numbers matter, we can shrug and say "basically Percentile"

For playing the MMO, basically this means that +Skill items are absolute gold, with +Base Stats items (Mana, HP, etc) being next-best, and +Ability items being least important. Basically you want to max ability scores just to maximize your innate base stats, then you want to add more base stats on top of that, and you will always want +Skill items if you can get them (I may be wrong, I don't think there's any in P99? I'm actually unfamiliar with high endgame content sooo) But I think we all already knew that stuff, it's kind of intuitive.

But as for my project of turning this into a TTRPG (and pointedly, avoiding the D20 "Sword and Sorcery" cludge) it seems my best option will be adapting a percentile, skill-based system such as Halogen, MERP, or even CoC. This will be mildly annoying as I have no experience with any of those, but never hurts to learn.

Thanks everyone for the input!