Double Damage on Rooted Mobs: Ranger archery in ToV

[TytosOfEight]

I’d like to open a discussion about the double damage archery mechanic on rooted mobs, particularly in relation to ToV dragons. As far as I’m aware, rooted raid mobs were rare in classic EQ, perhaps with the exception of Yeli? And even then, I’m not aware of it ever impacting ranger bow DPS.

The current implementation feels like an unintended nerf to rangers, especially since rooted raid mobs were not common in classic. While I understand the need to root certain ToV dragons, the double damage penalty seems disproportionately unfair for rangers.

If adjusting the mechanic from a coding perspective is tricky, perhaps the double damage could be tied to the ranger’s movement instead? This would equate to: no double damage if the ranger is moving and firing, but double damage if the ranger is stationary and firing.

This might make bow rotting slightly more effective for leveling, but it wouldn’t be game-breaking.

[CrazyPro]

I’d like to open a discussion about the double damage archery mechanic on rooted mobs, particularly in relation to ToV dragons. As far as I’m aware, rooted raid mobs were rare in classic EQ, perhaps with the exception of Yeli? And even then, I’m not aware of it ever impacting ranger bow DPS.

The current implementation feels like an unintended nerf to rangers, especially since rooted raid mobs were not common in classic. While I understand the need to root certain ToV dragons, the double damage penalty seems disproportionately unfair for rangers.

If adjusting the mechanic from a coding perspective is tricky, perhaps the double damage could be tied to the ranger’s movement instead? This would equate to: no double damage if the ranger is moving and firing, but double damage if the ranger is stationary and firing.

This might make bow rotting slightly more effective for leveling, but it wouldn’t be game-breaking.

There are old screenshots of Yeli outside of his lair, so he was unrooted at one point. Not sure when in the timeline he was rooted, or if he was even rooted during velious.
Vulak wasn't rooted until the Vulak ring event in Luclin.

I don't think they'd consider custom changes to archery mechanics to solve this issue.
I think it's nigh time these unclassically rooted mobs get unrooted again, people employ the same tricks that they used to use in unrooted ToV in literally every other raid zone. How it was done in classic is not how it's going to be done here, unless you root every single mob/leash them to their lair.

[Awsten_Tx]

There are old screenshots of Yeli outside of his lair, so he was unrooted at one point. Not sure when in the timeline he was rooted, or if he was even rooted during velious.
Vulak wasn't rooted until the Vulak ring event in Luclin.

I don't think they'd consider custom changes to archery mechanics to solve this issue.
I think it's nigh time these unclassically rooted mobs get unrooted again, people employ the same tricks that they used to use in unrooted ToV in literally every other raid zone. How it was done in classic is not how it's going to be done here, unless you root every single mob/leash them to their lair.

Think yeli outside his lair is precisely why the BFG was nerfed lol

[CrazyPro]

Think yeli outside his lair is precisely why the BFG was nerfed lol

So he was always rooted but people just spammed knockback on him to move him out of his lair? That would imply that "permarooted" mobs literally just had zero runspeed and probably didn't count as rooted for the purpose of double damage bow shots.

Let us BFG rooted mobs out of their lairs!

[Belambic]

Let us be able to quest for the BFG again. Fix the respawn on logging in issue, and lets get this live again.

[Jimjam]

So he was always rooted but people just spammed knockback on him to move him out of his lair? That would imply that "permarooted" mobs literally just had zero runspeed and probably didn't count as rooted for the purpose of double damage bow shots.

Let us BFG rooted mobs out of their lairs!

IIRC knockback shouldn't move rooted stuff. Don't quote me on that!

[Awsten_Tx]

So he was always rooted but people just spammed knockback on him to move him out of his lair? That would imply that "permarooted" mobs literally just had zero runspeed and probably didn't count as rooted for the purpose of double damage bow shots.

Let us BFG rooted mobs out of their lairs!

Yeli wasnt "rooted" his speed was just set to 0. This is how alot of the classic "rooted" mobs were.

Players figured out how to reposition them with knockbacks like BFG, and SOE said no dice and took BFG out the game.

[baakss]

I’d like to open a discussion about the double damage archery mechanic on rooted mobs, particularly in relation to ToV dragons. As far as I’m aware, rooted raid mobs were rare in classic EQ, perhaps with the exception of Yeli? And even then, I’m not aware of it ever impacting ranger bow DPS.

The current implementation feels like an unintended nerf to rangers, especially since rooted raid mobs were not common in classic. While I understand the need to root certain ToV dragons, the double damage penalty seems disproportionately unfair for rangers.

If adjusting the mechanic from a coding perspective is tricky, perhaps the double damage could be tied to the ranger’s movement instead? This would equate to: no double damage if the ranger is moving and firing, but double damage if the ranger is stationary and firing.

This might make bow rotting slightly more effective for leveling, but it wouldn’t be game-breaking.


I'm fairly certain 0 runspeed mobs should be double damage anyway, and archery not doing double to them is a bug?


https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/tAy9EPnbCNk/m/1lOJ_UmONRAJ


Here is evidence someone hit a 1025 bowshot against Yelinak in late Velious. This would've been prior to Archery Mastery being available. I do not believe this is possible in Velious without unrooted double damage.



Dennis Francis Heffernan
unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 6:13:28 PM
to
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:55:13 -0700, "Sean Kennedy" <kse...@qwest.net> wrote:
|Now I'm really curious, just how much damage are we talking
|about?

Celt just set a new record -- a single hit of 1025, against Yelinak.

[baakss]

There are old screenshots of Yeli outside of his lair, so he was unrooted at one point. Not sure when in the timeline he was rooted, or if he was even rooted during velious.
Vulak wasn't rooted until the Vulak ring event in Luclin.

I don't think they'd consider custom changes to archery mechanics to solve this issue.
I think it's nigh time these unclassically rooted mobs get unrooted again, people employ the same tricks that they used to use in unrooted ToV in literally every other raid zone. How it was done in classic is not how it's going to be done here, unless you root every single mob/leash them to their lair.

Probably not a custom change anyway. See my above post -- 1025 crit on Yelinak in era with a bow.

[Samoht]

Permarooted mobs are not rooted. It is a different mechanic. You'll notice because rooted mobs have differing behavior based on who stands closest.

Is there any evidence presented here that shows permarooted mobs are taking less archery damaged compared to non-rooted mobs?

[CrazyPro]

Permarooted mobs are not rooted. It is a different mechanic. You'll notice because rooted mobs have differing behavior based on who stands closest.

Is there any evidence presented here that shows permarooted mobs are taking less archery damaged compared to non-rooted mobs?

You get a message saying your archery hit did double damage that goes along with the normal hit message on non-rooted non-moving mobs on a 50+ ranger. You do not get this message on permarooted mobs and the damage is noticeably not doubled.

[feniin]

Permarooted mobs are not rooted. It is a different mechanic. You'll notice because rooted mobs have differing behavior based on who stands closest.

Is there any evidence presented here that shows permarooted mobs are taking less archery damaged compared to non-rooted mobs?

Rangers do double damage (identified by an in-game message) to unrooted stationary targets. The rooted dragons are currently not taking double damage. This GREATLY impacts our damage output. Bows are currently not viable at all against Yelinak and stationary ToV dragons.

[Botten]

I'm fairly certain 0 runspeed mobs should be double damage anyway, and archery not doing double to them is a bug?


https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/tAy9EPnbCNk/m/1lOJ_UmONRAJ


Here is evidence someone hit a 1025 bowshot against Yelinak in late Velious. This would've been prior to Archery Mastery being available. I do not believe this is possible in Velious without unrooted double damage.

This kind of damage could be done on live during Velious and there are other posts backing that up here: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#comments

But you would be lucky to see anything over 800 damage on P99.

Maybe after the patch the damage will be corrected.

[baakss]

This kind of damage could be done on live during Velious and there are other posts backing that up here: https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=5522&p=2#comments

But you would be lucky to see anything over 800 damage on P99.

Maybe after the patch the damage will be corrected.

I believe Nilbog did some work on the damage ranges in the other thread. My post was more specifically targeting "rooted" dragons and double bow damage. On P99, bowshots do regular damage to targets like Yelinak and ToV dragons. But on live, I believe the post I linked supports that bowshots were double damage against Yelinak, as a 1025 crit would not have been possible without it in Aug 2001.

[Samoht]

So the issue here is that the double damage message is missing, not that you're not doing double damage?

[Awsten_Tx]

So the issue here is that the double damage message is missing, not that you're not doing double damage?

No, the double damage message is NOT missing. You cannot do double damage on Rooted mobs.

When the staff rooted the dragons they used some sort of perma root. This caused an inadvertant nerf to rangers.

On live, the mobs were set to 0 move speed, or perhaps a 100% SNARE which is different from a root. This is what allowed the big Yelinak hits.

I suspect rangers archery is going to see a slight improvement with the archery bonus correction. So if staff adjust the current "rooted" dragons to instead "move speed 0" dragons it would correct ranger archery damage further.

[Awsten_Tx]

as a follow up, because on live, dragons were not rooted, but instead set to 0 move speed, this allowed them to be moved around and repositioned to trivialize encounters. This is the reason for the BFG nerf.

[Samoht]

No, the double damage message is NOT missing

So then you are getting the message?

You cannot do double damage on Rooted mobs.

As previously noted, permaroot is an entirely different mechanic than root. The dragons are not rooted. You can notice how aggro behaves differently on a rooted mob compared to a permarooted mob.

I understand that there is a likelihood that permaroot is not implemented correctly on P99, but the arguments on this thread do not really explain how or why.

What is the expected interaction between rangers and a permarooted mob and how does that differ from the observed interactions? Bringing up root in general seems like a red herring to me.

[CrazyPro]

So then you are getting the message?



As previously noted, permaroot is an entirely different mechanic than root. The dragons are not rooted. You can notice how aggro behaves differently on a rooted mob compared to a permarooted mob.

I understand that there is a likelihood that permaroot is not implemented correctly on P99, but the arguments on this thread do not really explain how or why.

What is the expected interaction between rangers and a permarooted mob and how does that differ from the observed interactions? Bringing up root in general seems like a red herring to me.

Permarooted mobs didn't count as rooted for the purposes of ranger archery double damage back in ye olde days, but they do on P99. When you shoot a permarooted mob on p99 it doesn't give the double damage message and the damage isn't doubled, therefore the mob counts as rooted for the purposes of ranger archery but without the proximity based aggro of normal root due to the way it's implemented on p99.