Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Misto]

Oh no, trash newbie telling me to play better or thinks I'm not familiar with item loot!

Many people are against item loot because they've seen the effects item loot has on pvp emu servers. Sure, r99 will likely have a large population initially no matter what, but that doesn't mean it will maintain that.

pussy

[Salty]

pussy

You are unable to call others a pussy when you have proven yourself as a gigantic pussy.

[Yukahwa]

Nice..Good discussion here.

With a lower level limit (like 4) and a decent GM staff (like Rogean and friends) item loot would not pull the server apart.

[beentheredonethat]

with item loot you'll have a rallos zek effect. first 40+ levels will be painful, constant ganks by groups of casters. There simply won't be enough newbies who want to stick it out.

but today it's not the same world as when Sony had a monopoly. there are alternatives. people will simply quit and go to another server. I've done Rallos Zek, with item loot I personally won't even bother playing today even on live.

[Yukahwa]

Well item loot is gone from live since the server merge and basically since augments. so NP there.

If people want PVP they will have NP sticking it out on item loot server. Again..what does this hypothetical noob have to lose? Some banded..maybe a savants cap they got form a nice higher level in unrest? They will be ganked by casters regardless of item loot..and these noobs will be ganked by twinks regardless of item loot. So all it means is there is no chance of stealing the casters robes.

[Hipnotizer]

Coin loot - Yes! I like clarity and personal HG's. Ty.
Item loot - Hell no! If you would so kindly read what my pal Buhbuh wrote:

Kael, PoG, SS armor. Bracers of Benevolence on all classes, bar pure casters and priests. Yelinak, Sontalak, Tunare, Zlandicar, Klandicar, Wuoshi, Vindi, Statue, Tormax, Dain, PoM, NToV, Dozekar, WToV, Sleeper's Tomb, Strength of the Elements, Tantor's Tusk, Sceptre of Destruction, Zlandicar's heart, pre-primal weapons, Eyepatch of Plunder, Dain quest rings, VP, epics, early plane armor and weapons, haste items that very few are stupid enough to wear in dangerous situations.

That leaves? Eventual obsolescence and no one taking risks at all. As we've experienced, it leaves a population fearful of putting on even halfway decent gear, because it's the hugest time sink ever trying to get it. Were you there in the beginning of RZ? Or do you just remember fondly what it used to be like there when you did start?

Blind will be landing here much more that live, I imagine. That presents another problem all together with item loot.

Exp gain - Yes! The exp grind is going to be nuts, it would be sweet if I could get pvp exp also. Seem's like this would be a very good incentive for people to seek out others depending on how much exp we are talking? Idk.

Exp loss - I would only be ok with this if : I happen to find myself in a noob-status situation where I would get bind camped that either a) I would not suffer more than the initial exp loss or b) I just type /exit and call it a day for a silly mcphilly billybob rule.

[Yukahwa]

Yeah! Those no drop velious items mean the high level game is totally different. At low levels it means that twink player killers actually risk their ikky bp or fungi when they go out to kill noobs. Its better in every aspect. High levels get top notch no drops and can do REAL pvp seriously in their real gear. Guys geared up to PK newbs have to take an actual risk.

Non twink "newbies" that will get burnt out don't have to worry because their gear should be worthless anyways. Only people that benefit from no item loot are twinked lowbie PKs. Once you are moderately geared in your 40's you should be in a group anyways. Its just more dangerous..more fun. getting to high levels is even more rewarding because you can finally get all the good no drop gear.

[dusk883]

Yeah! Those no drop velious items mean the high level game is totally different. At low levels it means that twink player killers actually risk their ikky bp or fungi when they go out to kill noobs. Its better in every aspect. High levels get top notch no drops and can do REAL pvp seriously in their real gear. Guys geared up to PK newbs have to take an actual risk.

I agree with this for sure, item loot was always great IMO. Twinks were accountable and targets to hunt with your friends, I remember hunting and zone camping all over the Karanas early on Live when we saw our first guy wearing a Flowing Black Robe... "that guy has BLING!! Let's blind and kill him!"

[Yukahwa]

Yup. It makes the game actually fun. 2 buds can level up to their chosen lowbie level and try to hunt twinks. Its a blast. Killing someone for street cred is not rewarding at those levels..with item loot there are more options for fun. People wanting to get into the real game will get to level 50 and get good no drop gear.

[juicedsixfo]

...with item loot there are more options for fun.

You keep resorting to this same failed logic time and time again, and it's explained to you hand over fist that item loot creates much more negative results than it does "fun" results. Seriously, figure it out.

[Yukahwa]

Seriously, I've played the game. I don't need to perform a thought experiment to find out how things pan out.

What negative experiences have you had?

[juicedsixfo]

Seriously, I've played the game. I don't need to perform a thought experiment to get these results. I once had a level 2 high elf wizard and with my elite melee and really great spells I killed a level 1 enchanter and took his robe. Thats fun.

That's a horrible analogy.

[Yukahwa]

I edited my post for that reason. Your quick tho. I was then killed by a level 4 mage who just got his new pets.

[juicedsixfo]

What negative experiences have you had?

Just in general, having to think about bagging while you're fighting sucks. You're not concentrating on what you should be and it takes the fun away. Some classes have to do more than /pet attack /click spell slot

[dusk883]

Blind classes had a blast during item loot days. Gave me lots of "oh shit" moments too.

[dusk883]

now that I've had some time to think about it, as much as I missed item loot when they removed it, it didn't take away from the fun in the end. If item loot minimalizes the population, then I hope we don't implement it. Anything for a bigger population ... more friends and more enemies, more to hunt and to be hunted by.

[Humerox]

What negative experiences have you had?

First off, I FAVOR item loot. That said, fighting naked casters all day, and /looting nothing because of leet bagging skills was most of my experience with item loot when it was available.

Next, bi-curious blubies won't play, a lot of PvP vets that DON'T like item loot won't play, and so on.

I want as many targets as possible...not into limiting those targets right out of the gate.

[dusk883]

Agree with above, this isn't 2001 anymore and we need to weigh "too much punishment" against who will accept the risk (population).

Too much punishment and we'll all be standing around with our dicks in our hands talking about the good ol' days (still).

The smart thing, IMO, is to not do any item loot. Bring the people in is much more important.

[Yukahwa]

Its hard for me to understand how everyone feels just from this forum. So few posters considering how many players we expect.

Item loot made it more fun for me. I wonder how many RZ guys wished there was no item loot though?

I think most posters are VZ/TZ/SZ guys that never played item loot and want it their old way.

Why would people that dont want to fight come to pvp? I just liked more risk/more reward. Fighting naked casters all day is just the same as fighting geared casters if you cant loot the geared ones and you can loot the naked ones..except the naked ones are easier to kill.

Its alright guys.

[dusk883]

We had item loot on TZ/VZ.... for a long time. RZ population increased when TZ/VZ removed it.

[dusk883]

Why would people that dont want to fight come to pvp? I just liked more risk/more reward. Fighting naked casters all day is just the same as fighting geared casters if you cant loot the geared ones and you can loot the naked ones..except the naked ones are easier to kill.

Its alright guys.


There are tons of P99 players, IMO, that would come play at least part time on Red99 if there was no item loot. It's the straw that breaks their will to "come pvp". Remove item loot and the Red99 population picks up, IMO. Many won't even try beyond level 10 if there's item loot, or even a rumor of item loot. UO'ers back in the day said "what?? I get ONE item? Why cant i have ALL of their stuff??" It's all relative

[SearyxTZ]

Only way item loot works is if they comb the loot tables and add more NODROP tags.

Otherwise it's way way too imbalanced and fucks melees in the ass (when they're already screwed because of how classic is).


If players could feasibly gear MOST (not all) of their slots with decent no drop items, it would work. The problem is when some melee class is wearing all of his shit (because he has to, to stand a chance), and then his Breastplate of Awesome which he spent 8 hours farming for is taken by a naked caster.

[SearyxTZ]

I'm down to play item loot though -- I'll even roll a monk.


come at me bros

*breaks a beer bottle on the bar*

[Doors]

Item loot is stupid because casters can run around naked raping anyone. If Werhmacts stupid ass was still around he would be saying the same thing. While he was an idiot no doubt he was right about this aspect of item loot and how it favors casters way too much in an already dominant caster era of the game.

[Misto]

Item loot is stupid because casters can run around naked raping anyone. If Werhmacts stupid ass was still around he would be saying the same thing. While he was an idiot no doubt he was right about this aspect of item loot and how it favors casters way too much in an already dominant caster era of the game.

If you're not stacking resist gear then you're doing it wrong.

[raptorak]

Is this server going to be the same as Blue 99? Because the melee hit/miss rate is just awful there, as is the exp rate (yeh so maybe I shouldn't be a troll SK). Are they keeping all that?

UO was cool because you could kill someone and take all their stuff (back when I played). Granted, usually it meant I was killed and people took all my stuff, but it was damn easy to get some really good, competitive gear in that game and you mainly worried about getting reagents for your spells (Corp Por! black pearl and nightshade still remember looting that shiznit!).

Basically UO was nothing like EQ so it could get away with no rules (at first) - 100 hp max and you could be a capable combo of warrior/archer/wizard if you wanted to. The best an item could do was about 50% more damage than the average, and then maybe have a few spell charges on it. The bows that I could carve with my newbie axe (which I spawned with) and the arrows made from leftover bark and feathers from a few killed birds meant I would be back in the game pretty quick. Kill a mage take his reagents, then blow away a fighter and you get his sword. Then get ganked and lose all your stuff again and have your decapitated head and various limbs strewn around for good measure.

And thieving was awesome in that game too (still don't know how those bastards did it! :P )

I digress. Anyway, in EQ, things work very differently and as people have said it is/was very caster based. What they did on T/VZ after many melee complained (and I agreed as a troll sk) was allow item loot but not of anything in a weapon slot. They also added that anything in a bag could not be taken. This meant that PVP battles usually began with me stripping off and shoving my armour into a backpack whilst waving my troll ass at whatever damn lighties had rooted me, then shadow stepping (more often than not into the welcoming arms of a sand giant). Poor warriors were more like chippendales than brave fighters. And of course, every single caster was naked with a staff, and in the end we all followed suit. Naked Trolls and Ogres stormed Gfay and gnomes streaked across the Oasis whilst halflings were pedobeared by tom bombadil. It was quite ludicrous.

After more (justified) whining the root spell was nerfed and warriors were given (deservedly) better magic resist - god warriors were awful even with that. At that time casters had to look at their spellbook to med, and as we all know sitting down usually results in a full damage hit to said caster. So there were more funny scenes as my troll brothers and I would swim through oasis and come up on the big pillar behind mezzing high elves - full power double attack bash in the face harm touch FTW :P Later my poor brother rolled a warrior and his first purchase was the argent defender just for that purpose :)

Good times anyway, had a blast zerging Cazic Thule with the Minions of Zek, as a lieutenant helping to organize mass (suicide) raids into Gfaydark where most were slaughtered by guards and wandering npcs (no one was very high level it seemed). I remember the corpse runs vividly. And if anyone remembers a troll SK called Khwaj, you have a better memory than me!

[Kope]

I'm down to play item loot though -- I'll even roll a monk.

In classic, monk was by far the least gear dependent melee class. :(. Roll a warrior and i'll give you the props :D

[Humerox]

PVP battles usually began with me stripping off and shoving my armour into a backpack whilst waving my troll ass at whatever damn lighties had rooted me, then shadow stepping (more often than not into the welcoming arms of a sand giant). Poor warriors were more like chippendales than brave fighters. And of course, every single caster was naked with a staff, and in the end we all followed suit. Naked Trolls and Ogres stormed Gfay and gnomes streaked across the Oasis whilst halflings were pedobeared by tom bombadil. It was quite ludicrous.

laughed my a@@ off at that. good post tho, bro.

[raptorak]

If resists aren't fucked, a geared melee can drop a naked wiz/caster no problem.

One on one, yes - but naked casters tend to come in groups of 30.

[dusk883]

One on one, yes - but naked casters tend to come in groups of 30.

lmao

[Yukahwa]

I'd love to see a group of 30 naked casters.

Still, it remains true that the only lowbies with good items will be twinks, others have nothing to lose. It means twinks have nothing to worry about when they stomp on weak competition. Lame.

[Buhbuh]

Monks and Rogues actually had it the hardest on the boxes with item loot in classic.

If we ignore the fact that the melee system was completely separate from what it was on live on all previous boxes, Warriors actually had it best. There's a lot (and I do mean a lot) of very easily accessible MR gear for Warriors in classic. My MR as a monk couldn't even compare to a lot of them, and I was fucking stacked. My tits were huuuuuuge. Rakusha cloaks n' shit. Them shits were ballllllller.

We all did the full JC stuff too, but SSB (Tranix later on as well), Runed Bone Fork, Mithril arms and legs, etc. went to Warriors.

Most of the time people were stacking DS potions with normal DS's though, so 1hand classes were getting railed for 39 dmg a hit.

Monks and Rogues don't really come into their own until Kunark. If you're diligent and smart with decent gear (10+ dmg piercers and decent haste), they can be pretty viable in classic. But for the most part, you're at a disadvantage. Warriors were seriously retarded good on older boxes. Rogues and Monks did output some serious DPS in PvE though.

[raptorak]

TBQH I left Tallon Zek (and everquest) after a year or so, but I came back a few years later when Luclin was out and everything had calmed down (and gone to shit I assume), and PvPing had definitely gone out the window. I remember watching my younger brother play while he attacked what looked like an elven druid, the druid just kept asking him what he was doing, whilst healing himself. Finally he got tired of my bro's stubbornness and just gated to PoP. LOL EQ pvp went super pussy at some point. You would attack someone and they would be like - Excuse me sir, what are you doing? Is there some kind of problem? Did I offend you in some way? Hey, why not join our group? We are off to High Keep if you would like to join us - there will be cookies!

[Fists]

Coin AND Item loot ~ Rallos Zek was one of the most successful servers in EQ's early goings. Get yourself some no drop gear, and sack up.

Exp gain and loss, exploitable, and horrible.

[Tamiah2011]

I'd love to see a group of 30 naked casters.

Still, it remains true that the only lowbies with good items will be twinks, others have nothing to lose. It means twinks have nothing to worry about when they stomp on weak competition. Lame.

You most of not played pvp RZ.Cause I ganked twinks all the time with only a weapon in my hand and leather gear.Guess what happen when you go LD...Opps thank you twink for nice gear..

[Tamiah2011]

Coin loot - Yes! I like clarity and personal HG's. Ty.
Item loot - Hell no! If you would so kindly read what my pal Buhbuh wrote:



Exp gain - Yes! The exp grind is going to be nuts, it would be sweet if I could get pvp exp also. Seem's like this would be a very good incentive for people to seek out others depending on how much exp we are talking? Idk.

Exp loss - I would only be ok with this if : I happen to find myself in a noob-status situation where I would get bind camped that either a) I would not suffer more than the initial exp loss or b) I just type /exit and call it a day for a silly mcphilly billybob rule.



Your Pal is a complete oxy moron and need to stay on Blue server so he dosnt loss his newbie gear and cry...Most them items are almost inpossiable to obtain and some not even classic based.

[Buhbuh]

Your Pal is a complete oxy moron and need to stay on Blue server so he dosnt loss his newbie gear and cry...Most them items are almost inpossiable to obtain and some not even classic based.

I usually don't take people seriously who habitually can't spell words right, but if you want to get into a pissing contest about what I intend to do or am in, or know about EQ, then please, explain your currently baseless, bullshit speculation.

I totally "doesn't loss my newbie gear and cry." I'm pretty sure all of that was classic that I mentioned, so...anyway, gonna go eat some garlic bread!

[beentheredonethat]

One on one, yes - but naked casters tend to come in groups of 30.

"We're Going streaking up through the quad and into the gymnasium! Come on everybody"

[beentheredonethat]

Monks and Rogues actually had it the hardest on the boxes with item loot in classic.

That was my first main toon. All my fights (if I wasn't blinded first) involved me bagging my leather or whatever random crap I had at that time and just standing there rooted waiting for the pain to end.

[Tamiah2011]

I usually don't take people seriously who habitually can't spell words right, but if you want to get into a pissing contest about what I intend to do or am in, or know about EQ, then please, explain your currently baseless, bullshit speculation.

I totally "doesn't loss my newbie gear and cry." I'm pretty sure all of that was classic that I mentioned, so...anyway, gonna go eat some garlic bread!



Please let us know what name your planning on using so I can make sure you have plenty of garlic bread.

[Yukahwa]

You most of not played pvp RZ.Cause I ganked twinks all the time with only a weapon in my hand and leather gear.Guess what happen when you go LD...Opps thank you twink for nice gear..

Thats what I'm saying. No item loot means those twinks have nothing to fear..and poor newbs have nothing to gain by ganging up and taking them out. I re-read my post and it was extremely unclear.

The point I was trying to make is that when Item loot is Disabled..lowbie twinks get to troll through newb zones completely fearless. When item loot is engaged, no matter how strong you make your level 10 rogue, you COULD get ganked, or go LD and you could lose your ikky bp. Without item loot that level 10 never has to worry about -anything-

[beentheredonethat]

Thats what I'm saying. No item loot means those twinks have nothing to fear..and poor newbs have nothing to gain by ganging up and taking them out. I re-read my post and it was extremely unclear.

The point I was trying to make is that when Item loot is Disabled..lowbie twinks get to troll through newb zones completely fearless. When item loot is engaged, no matter how strong you make your level 10 rogue, you COULD get ganked, or go LD and you could lose your ikky bp. Without item loot that level 10 never has to worry about -anything-

on RZ twinks ran around in all no drop gear, they weren't dumb.

[Doors]

"We're Going streaking up through the quad and into the gymnasium! Come on everybody"

[Rushmore]

Who the fuck has a twink? This project will be extremly succesful with 90-150 people online. This aint disneyland

Yes maybe 200-300 people start but it wont last. Most americans dont have the skin for it.

This is why everquest bluebie has never been recreated. No money in it

[vinx]

iirc
P99 had 150-200 the first couple months and there were people everywhere in those zones of level.
then around december, there was like 300ish and there was alot of 40-50s on server and still the server seemed quite healthy.
R99 should be fun with these amounts

[Rushmore]

Like someone said the past pvp servers that were a success minus boxes were probably a 100 people. So without boxing im gonna say 150-200 would be MONEY

[Fists]

on RZ twinks ran around in all no drop gear, they weren't dumb.

You never played on Rallos Zek, and if you did, you are an ignorant unobservant moron. From someone who played on Rallos for YEARS; I've ganked a white dragon helm, aon, dathors hammer, fungi, botgt, heavy dragon bp, bcg. I've also lost a fungi, tons of mithril, SCHW's. NO ONE ran around in No drop gear excluding SOME caster shit, it was trash.

[Arshis]

Item Loot – Why not have it in for the first 7months or however long it was in for during Classic if you’re going to go for a classic feel leave it in for a short period. I remember being level 40 cleric with nothing but leather and tidbits of bronze on. It defiantly made for interesting gameplay dynamics when your main tanks wear garbage. Also note people didn’t bind rush like crazy until they removed the one item loot.

Coin – Leave it in.

XP Deaths - Leave it in, even when XP deaths were removed it just caused people to find clever ways to exp other players. Which in turn I think caused people to whine more when they took an exp death because they were rooted or jumped on while in the middle of an encounter.

I'm surprised there are so many sissies in this thread.

[Tamiah2011]

Item Loot – Why not have it in for the first 7months or however long it was in for during Classic if you’re going to go for a classic feel leave it in for a short period. I remember being level 40 cleric with nothing but leather and tidbits of bronze on. It defiantly made for interesting gameplay dynamics when your main tanks wear garbage. Also note people didn’t bind rush like crazy until they removed the one item loot.

Coin – Leave it in.

XP Deaths - Leave it in, even when XP deaths were removed it just caused people to find clever ways to exp other players. Which in turn I think caused people to whine more when they took an exp death because they were rooted or jumped on while in the middle of an encounter.

I'm surprised there are so many sissies in this thread.




This Poster is right on!!! LIke it

[Tamiah2011]

Thats what I'm saying. No item loot means those twinks have nothing to fear..and poor newbs have nothing to gain by ganging up and taking them out. I re-read my post and it was extremely unclear.

The point I was trying to make is that when Item loot is Disabled..lowbie twinks get to troll through newb zones completely fearless. When item loot is engaged, no matter how strong you make your level 10 rogue, you COULD get ganked, or go LD and you could lose your ikky bp. Without item loot that level 10 never has to worry about -anything-

Ok sorry misunderstood you...Your right on the money this time.I played RZ from begining till end and I know what works and dont work.I would like to see loot items left in the game,But this time keep it in.At higher levels the planer gear and few other pcs of no drop gear really will not help that much more.Especially against a caster class.

[Tamiah2011]

on RZ twinks ran around in all no drop gear, they weren't dumb.

Really level 40 and below? Please tell me theses no drop items because I only remimber a few.I never saw anyone below 40 that ran around with alll no drop gear 40 and below,Not while loot rule was ineffect anyways.

[Bardalicious]

Item Loot – Why not have it in for the first 7months or however long it was in for during Classic if you’re going to go for a classic feel leave it in for a short period.

What server are you referring to? Because Rallos Zek had item loot all the way til sometime after LDoN, and was only taken out because of augments being able to make everything no drop.

I really believe people are over-exaggerating how negatively item loot will affect the server. It added quite a bit of fun to PVP when you could spend time working towards the goal of having a set of nodrop quest / obscure gear. Aside from the fact that you could bag your important pieces when you knew you would die, you could also pull off any +HP items to kill yourself as well.

You just had to learn the system and adapt to it, as is the case with any set of rules.

[mitic]

Really level 40 and below? Please tell me theses no drop items because I only remimber a few.I never saw anyone below 40 that ran around with alll no drop gear 40 and below,Not while loot rule was ineffect anyways.

ihad those plate no drop greaves and gauntlets as paladin at lvl 18 on rz back the day from zl dead side from groups clearin in

[Tamiah2011]

ihad those plate no drop greaves and gauntlets as paladin at lvl 18 on rz back the day from zl dead side from groups clearin in

That sweet,But not a game changer.Even if your the biggest twink on server someone will alway get you.What normally happen is someone pvp someone then someone in hiding jumps you right after you kill me ...At that point your probabley half hps and going get pk'ed and loss one of them precious pieces.So I am again all for (1) item loot rules.

[Arshis]

On the topic of Twinks
I'm from Tallon Zek. Aside from low levels running around with Fungi tunics during the Kunark era I never really saw to much 'twinking' but tons of OOR healers/buffers. I found classic EQ to be rather difficult in the manner of obtaining gear most people didn't seem to have an excess amount of gear to throw around on twinks. I recall leveling in MM classic from level 19-30 two times and I never once entered the Castle-MM with a group. I was a lightie we were highly unorganized when it came to dungeons, unlike the darkies (I guess).

The first major twink I remember was during SoL when a PDM SK had sold his account and the new owner had de-leveled him all the way down to like 18. (He had the Seru BP 'shudders') After that a whole ordeal a chain of de-levels came into play. A few months later Sony had implemented the recommended level 'thing' on most items in the game. I can foresee some possible problems with twinks, from full planar level 50's de-leveling. But twinks are just one of those obstacles you have to hurdle over, once your past their level you don't have to deal with them anymore. I don't see why people are so worried about twinks.

On the topic of Leader-boards
By the time Leader-board came out clerics were shit out of luck as far as being able to land any nukes so, I didn't pay much attention to it. I recall most the top people on the Kill/Deaths ratio being like lvl 18 twinks. It was always like some level 18 twink with 300kills and 14 deaths who cares...

My personal belief is that if someone was a highly skilled killer a leader-board wasn't going to tell you that. Though experience you learn to spam /who and watch out for these names...... Kendrick, Amuk, Mythd, Glen, Chestar, Alfrid, Wynch and so on. I think building a reputation is worth more than some silly kill/death ratio on a leader-board. Therefore, I don't believe leader-board is all that important. Just recently I played on p69 for a little bit, many of the people with many kills are low levels with OOR healers/buffers. Leader-boards just encourage more cheesy tactics. Like rogues who sit there and watch you finish soloing a mob then jump you when your at 11% hp. Having a lot of free kills doesn't indicate a good pvper but yet it gives the illusion that you are.

PS: I hope bringing up some of those names brought many of you old school Tallons some fond memories.

[vinx]

What server are you referring to? Because Rallos Zek had item loot all the way til sometime after LDoN, and was only taken out because of augments being able to make everything no drop.

Vallon and Tallon

[Buhbuh]

It was funny back then that no one ever had a fully geared NToV toon deleveled. That recommended shit didn't come until later on. Imagine that 2hs from Vulak on someone at 20 or 30, even 40? Jesus.

[Harrison]

It was funny back then that no one ever had a fully geared NToV toon deleveled. That recommended shit didn't come until later on. Imagine that 2hs from Vulak on someone at 20 or 30, even 40? Jesus.

That's why they fixed that exploit.

Your stats got dropped when you deleveled too.

[Macken]

they didn't fix the "exploit"

They just stopped repeating the ideas that weren't very good.

In other words, they had the intelligence to learn what works and what doesn't


The more you know....

[Bardalicious]

That's why they fixed that exploit.

Your stats got dropped when you deleveled too.

The only thing I believe they had nerfed was your skills. They put in a hard cap to prevent a level 20 rogue, for example, having 250 points in backstab after deleveling.

As far as stats from items, they remained the same as long as they didnt have rec/req levels, though having capped skills reduced defense and attack and such.

[Harrison]

The only thing I believe they had nerfed was your skills. They put in a hard cap to prevent a level 20 rogue, for example, having 250 points in backstab after deleveling.

As far as stats from items, they remained the same as long as they didnt have rec/req levels, though having capped skills reduced defense and attack and such.

That's what I meant. Stats from items remained the same until their rec/req system.

[Envious]

De-leveling was fun before they nerfed the skill levels being retained.

[Tajin]

KEEEEP ITEM LOOOOOOT!!!

[mimixownzall]

Coin Loot: Yes
Item Loot: No
Exp loss/gain: No. If you're not going to allow item loot, why allow exp loss? Both discourage PVP. With item loot, you have people running away bagging their items before they possibly turn around and fight; exp loss you have people running.... running.... running....

[Tajin]

Coin Loot: Yes
Item Loot: No
Exp loss/gain: No. If you're not going to allow item loot, why allow exp loss? Both discourage PVP. With item loot, you have people running away bagging their items before they possibly turn around and fight; exp loss you have people running.... running.... running....

People turn around running regardless if its item loot or not. Exp loss on pvp death should be enabled imo, it would help against bind rushing imo.

KEEP ITEM LOOT

[pasi]

Exp loss on death (assuming its a sizable amount, even 40% of a real death) is going to be a bigger deterrent of PvP than item loot would from 1-49.

[vinx]

BUT.. it does have its upsides

* training will be down on those that do it consistantly (minus the level 1 DA clerics)
eg, you train, you die from train, you get corpse, you die (unless you wait till they leave = less training)
* forces you to group and/or xp every so often once your level cap (and max level will be an accomplishment)

2 things that griefers and PKs hate to do
Casuals will hate it but not as much (cuz they dont pk as much)
im guessin they will realize its a slow grind when they dont expect to win every battle
and will keep on casually grinding /shrug

but i agree, if its put in it will be brutal
xp group deaths + pvp death daily = some days you lose more then you gain
idc either way, Deterent? prolly
but i do have an evil grin just thinkin about it being in LOL

[pasi]

Dying while training is such a 2000s thing. Rez box training, DAing on top of people, using mobs natural back-pathing to train, etc.

But yeah, until you have anything valuable, I'm sure most would rather lose their lockjaw-hide vest or savant's cap rather than eat a sizable exp death. Not sure how many of you leveled on P99, but it's pretty slow.

[mimixownzall]

KEEP ITEM LOOT

No.

There is a reason eqlive went away from this and made servers that didn't have item loot:

It was more popular.

If it were teams I would be more prone to allow item loot, but it's too easy to fuck people over who aren't in big guilds and join groups.

/gu Look! He's got a (insert cool item here)! I have been camping one of them forever and can't get one to drop, lets disband him and rip it from his still-warm corpse.

[raptorak]

If there is item loot do not allow looting of weapons - that is just cruel and unfair.

[Yukahwa]

Yeah I like item loot without weapon loot. It just disables Melees too much.

1 item loot, no weapons or range slot items.

[Muaar]

item loot is tempting but given the state of previous emu pvp servers and the challenges that arise from item loot i would almost rather take the safe route and see just coin/exp loss and gain.

Is there a way to restrict it to looting 1 item only?

[Tajin]

item loot is tempting but given the state of previous emu pvp servers and the challenges that arise from item loot i would almost rather take the safe route and see just coin/exp loss and gain.

Is there a way to restrict it to looting 1 item only?

It wouldnt be full item loot, it would be 1 item, not main/off hand or range, unless disarmed and it fell to an empty slot, not in a bag. It would not include bags, and only be items that u have on, or not in a bag in ur inventory. So basically if u know u are going to die, to a dot or whatever. You can try to bag ur valuable items.
I know it will suck if u lose a valuable piece of armor, but u can easily gank someones shit as well. U guys just need to play better and stop being pussies!!!!!! LETS DO IT

[Nirgon]

4 lvls item loot mebs, 8 lvls... Probs not the best idea.

[Muaar]

Something like within 4 or 8 levels item loot and then ffa with coin-loot would be interesting. Probably easily exploitable by people bringing along lowbie friends to offload items to.

[Yukahwa]

I think 4 levels at low levels with item loot is best. Allows lowbies to gang up and take out twinks.

8 levels means the twinks utterly squash lowbie opposition.. no item loot means they do that without even having to worry about the off chance of death.

The fix proposed by the big bosses that allow anyone out of range that heals a player become PVPable by those that are already pvping that player is a good fix and allows the level range to be tightened up without such drastic consequences.

[Wonton]

Still, it remains true that the only lowbies with good items will be twinks, others have nothing to lose. It means twinks have nothing to worry about when they stomp on weak competition. Lame.

My fondest memories here

[JayDee]

if there is exp loss from pvp deaths, expect most people to be griefed off the server within first 2 months

[georgie]

if there is exp loss from pvp deaths, expect most people to be griefed off the server within first 2 months

if there's gonna be xp loss on pvp deaths, the exp shouldn't be as harsh as classic. or maybe make the xp loss at a certain level.

[Pudge]

i think exp loss on death would have to be minimal. but that it should be greater at 50 and 60 than other levels.

[Mrcurtloco]

pvp exp loss bad for corpse camping
pvp coin loot doesnt matter either way is fine
pvp item loot doesnt work, and for everyone that doesnt understand why the people from vztz are telling you this is because its been tested, more then once,... doesnt work pop cut in half or less eveytime.

YT is fine does nothing really bad for the server
Leaderboards promote exploiting and griefing, fine if you want it in im ok with that. Is it good for the server....no

server wide ooc this is really a moot point
it takes about 2.5 seconds for a gm to make a "serverwide ooc channel"
and have it defaulted on* when you start. if you dont like it turn it off and just use normal zone ooc, if you do keep it on.


oh yeah sup peoples!

[Rushmore]

pvp exp loss bad for corpse camping
pvp coin loot doesnt matter either way is fine
pvp item loot doesnt work, and for everyone that doesnt understand why the people from vztz are telling you this is because its been tested, more then once,... doesnt work pop cut in half or less eveytime.

YT is fine does nothing really bad for the server
Leaderboards promote exploiting and griefing, fine if you want it in im ok with that. Is it good for the server....no

server wide ooc this is really a moot point
it takes about 2.5 seconds for a gm to make a "serverwide ooc channel"
and have it defaulted on* when you start. if you dont like it turn it off and just use normal zone ooc, if you do keep it on.


oh yeah sup peoples!

forgot to mention training....

Make it illegal because just like Item loot it will cut the server pop by half or more

[Mrcurtloco]

forgot to mention training....

Make it illegal because just like Item loot it will cut the server pop by half or more

yup little gnome sks always trainin poor swedes after they were guilded with em.

hershe squrtz!

[juicedsixfo]

I'd just like to vote "no" on PvP exp loss, especially if exp rate is set to classic.

If the exp rate had a boost, maybe.

[Cfullard]

YT is a failing idea. It's stupid, does nothing but give people an excuse to E-peen stroke and you will never know the circumstances for the kill. Anyone can run up, smash a player with 2% life and get yellow text after they got done with a hard PvE fight.

Damn son, you boss!

Rallos Zek/ Vallon Zek / Tallon Zek did great without yellow text. I challenge you to show me on Rallos Zek any time someone got yellow text. That's because it wasn't implemented. Don't confuse your 8.0 box rehash with rallos zek because it's not. Your 8.0 boxxes that reset everytime someone got better gear then you so you spammed the forums for a server reset.

[Cfullard]

Furthermore, teams is a brilliant idea because as was said below, FFA SERVERS DO NOT PROMOTE COMMUNITY PLAY. It promotes distrusting absolutely every player around you and treating them as hostile until you saw your guilds tag above their head.

I feel if players want a FFA server there are multitudes of other servers giving FFA for them to go to. Make this server different, put in PvP but make it PvP Teams in some way.

The majority of the fanboys who played those fail boxxes that reset 5+ times want this FFA, and they won't stick around for it. You see how long their attention stayed on the servers that reset constantly and you want to make THIS a PvP server? Come on man, don't revive a dead horse just so we can beat it again.

[Yukahwa]

PVP teams in FFA are divided between mean people and nice people its easy to make friends and geta group and stick with them. Guild tags help. It really forces a true community rather than haphazardly designated teams.

[Cfullard]

Rallos Zek had no community except for PvP right up to the point where Sony instituted Item loot on the server (which effectively turned it into a carebear server). Do I want Item loot? No, I think it caused too much griefing.

Don't confuse griefing with PVP. Griefing isn't true PvP, it's lame tactics by lame players trying to work the game to get kills.

Also, I don't know how you can say the teams were haphazard.

You knew what team you were joining depending on your race / class on Vallon Zek, there were even places you could read about that. If you don't want to be on a certain team, go to another. Re-roll, not too hard a choice with that.

[RandySlopeJr]

Rallos Zek had no community except for PvP right up to the point where Sony instituted Item loot on the server (which effectively turned it into a carebear server). Do I want Item loot? No, I think it caused too much griefing.

Don't confuse griefing with PVP. Griefing isn't true PvP, it's lame tactics by lame players trying to work the game to get kills.

Also, I don't know how you can say the teams were haphazard.

You knew what team you were joining depending on your race / class on Vallon Zek, there were even places you could read about that. If you don't want to be on a certain team, go to another. Re-roll, not too hard a choice with that.



What the hell you talking about???You would get more griefing with leader board and exp death bonuses..Let me go greif this guy with leather on..STFU dumbass lol

[Nirgon]

The phrase "prevent griefing" is still funny to me

[Nirgon]

Teams? It is called guilds. No forced "teams".

[Tajin]

Do I want Item loot? No, I think it caused too much griefing.
.

Cause ur a pussy, and would get Carl Winslooooowned and ragequit over ur Dwarven ringmail tunic the 1st day

[mitic]

iam all for minor/normal/greater insignias just for the show but also for rewards like essence emeralds and the like.

we dont need a team/deity based ruleset to implement this!

[Nirgon]

And no one would exploit that

[mitic]

And no one would exploit that

and rogean wouldnt be smart enough to code something like, kill a person a second time within 6 hours and receive nothing

[Albel420]

We are leaning towards a server with no item or coin loot, however there will be an XP Loss on PvP Deaths. We are open to discussion on this.

rogean, I use to play on rallos zek, and one of my most favorite things about the pvp server was being able to loot 1 items from their slots aslong as it wasnt weapon/shield/range/nodrop, imo it was the best part about the server,and made it alot more challenging ;P

[Nirgon]

I'm all for item loot but most people aren't is the issue.

Also rage quitting will be an all time high for most if this in place. I'd be happy to see it in but I know what will happen.

[Yukahwa]

I dont think there will be that much rage quitting. People know what they are getting into.

I think a lot of people are in favor of item loot, but the most vocal in this section of the p99 forums are people that have never experienced a successful item loot server so they speak their mind.

I do think that along with item loot, the PVP engagement range should be tightened up to 4 levels. at 8 levels the lower level character really has no chance for victory.

Perhaps at high levels the pvp engagement range can be expanded as the classes taper off...but even then I think a tighter limit is better.

[Nirgon]

I'd rather there be item loot as well with 4 levels. I'd rather have a higher pop server in exchange.

[Yukahwa]

Server population will be a result of a stable server with a good GM/Guide staff and a strict enforcement of rules. 8 level PVP range is the thing that will have the harshest effect on server pop because it just means maximum death for anyone trying to level up.

Item loot just means you live in fear. You live in fear anyways on PVP, item loot means twinks have to live in an enhanced state of fear.

The playerbase we are counting on are people that are coming from P99 that have never or barely ever played PVP that will give it a shot to see what all the fuss is about and to escape the stale non PVP lifestyle of P99. They will expect most of all stability. The details of PVP rules are things that these new players will easily grow into.

It is liberating to not really even want high end gear on your low end toon. I soloed to level 48 on my ranger in classic wearing full banded. Its not that bad.

[Nirgon]

Population retention involves stable server with good GMs (and good rule enforcement).

People rolling on the server depends on the rules, but for the serious PvPers.. not such a big deal. They will play regardless.

[Titanuk]

full item loot and if u die you go back to lvl 1

[Titanuk]

red99 out yet?

[tufflax]

I vote for coin loot and exp loss. No item loot.

[Danien]

I dont think there will be that much rage quitting. People know what they are getting into.

I think a lot of people are in favor of item loot, but the most vocal in this section of the p99 forums are people that have never experienced a successful item loot server so they speak their mind.

I do think that along with item loot, the PVP engagement range should be tightened up to 4 levels. at 8 levels the lower level character really has no chance for victory.

Perhaps at high levels the pvp engagement range can be expanded as the classes taper off...but even then I think a tighter limit is better.

No one have experienced a successful item loot server because there have not been any. It's a terrible idea, anyone who isn't a part of a bigger group is essentially forced into playing a caster or to forever suck. It also makes people afraid to engage in even combat and promotes gank-style PvP. The top would not really care too much about dying, even if they lose something valuable it will quickly be replaced (Probably by bounty collected in earlier fights or in a worst case scenario they'll just camp it again).

The only "good" point that I could see with it is that it may cause the majority to become anti-pk's and thus allowing avg-joe a chance to do something online. With a healthy mix of PK's it could be okay, but it just feels like a weaker version of teams.

[Mrcurtloco]

and rogean wouldnt be smart enough to code something like, kill a person a second time within 6 hours and receive nothing

ban, clearly shitting on staff!

[Nirgon]

After really thinking about it, I'm totally down with the xp loss on death.

[raptorak]

So do we gain exp if we kill people?

[Nirgon]

Definitely would not do that :P

[juicedsixfo]

I still think exp loss is an extra dynamic that will cause more negativity than anything else. Just PvP.

[Nirgon]

It prevents bind rushing though.. it would need a timer or something? I don't know exactly.

[juicedsixfo]

Bind rushing won't be an issue until months in to the server when there's for real raids going on. And it's possible that bind rushing will fall under the "play nice" rule set and will be dealt with by GMs. And there's a big difference between "regrouping, medding, and rebuffing" and just straight bind rushing.

What will be more prevalent is gank squads. There will be hundreds of times during each character's "life" where unpreventable, indefensible PvP death is going to happen. We all deal with it. You can't do jack shit about it (unless you're a gate class/plugger), and now have to figure out how to get your corpse out of some deep dungeon as a Warrior – and losing exp for it as well? Kinda lame.

With PvP exp loss I think more people will contemplate porting/running/camping because of how precious it is at the classic rate, but if it were out they would actually stand their ground. Again I think it's an extra dynamic that will weigh on peoples' minds when it come down to flee or fight.

[Xareth]

Coin loot is the default. It'd be a sad, pathetic thing to kill someone and see all that coin sitting in their inventory.

Maybe not the right thread but: xp loss for pvp deaths would be more beneficial than not as long as it was less xp lost than a pve death. Even if half the normal xp was lost it would be enough. Xp will be so precious in a classic grind that it won't be worth the hour(s) of hammering out mobs to rush in naked and maybe die again.

Xp gain for a pvp kill has to be more seriously thought out. But, as long as there are working timers preventing gaining / losing large amounts of xp through bind camping I think nearly any variation of this could work.

[Lasher]

If it was 5% or what ever would hybrids lose more exp in pvp since a lvl 50 hybrid had more exp than say a lvl 50 halfling warrior?

[Yukahwa]

Hybrids would lose the same amt of EXP but its slower for them to get it back. Doyyy

[Tajin]

keep item loot

[Vondra]

My preference would be:

Single item loot:

Prevents low level twinks from becoming a serious problem, ruining pvp in the area. There's at least the risk to them of people teaming up and killing them then taking something valuable. They can still do it but it'll keep it in check. All the various no drop gear can be collected for longer term serious characters, so it won't be that big a deal.

No exp loss:

Encourages more pvp in general I would think. Less focus on "not dying", more focus on "lets fight!"

No coin loot:

One item loot, but no coin loot. Just so people can be out there playing and not feel they need to be hitting the bank constantly, which is just tedious. Good for new players arriving to the server that'll surely get ganked plenty, they can at least get some money together.

[Yukahwa]

I don't care about coin loot at all. I think it should be there..but item loot is way more important to me. Really really needs to be there. Low level PVP is just boring without it. Only RL losers pvp at low levels for "pride" or PK recognition so for people who arent losers IRL there is no reason to pvp at low levels at all without item loot. No reason to band together to take out twinks because they will be back and ready to kill you again in a few minutes.

So if everyone decided to be a soft on coin loot, thats fine as long as item loot is there. I totally agree with you about why item loot is better than without..

Thats why I believe in playnice rules and Loot and Scoot because otherwise if lowbies do ever kill a twink they are going to have to corpse camp him until he logs off unless they want to find more interruptions to their leveling up.

I think a lot of people are trying to solve their high end game issues from servers where it took a week for a casual player to hit 50, while ignoring all of the issues that 8 level pvp range and no item loot would leave them with. On this server you are going to spend a lot more time below level 50..a lot of people wont ever hit 50. The whole below 50 game sucks without item loot and sucks worse than you are fighting people you cant kill (8 levels above you)

[beentheredonethat]

I don't care about coin loot at all. I think it should be there..but item loot is way more important to me. Really really needs to be there. Low level PVP is just boring without it. Only RL losers pvp at low levels for "pride" or PK recognition so for people who arent losers IRL there is no reason to pvp at low levels at all without item loot. No reason to band together to take out twinks because they will be back and ready to kill you again in a few minutes.


Get off your high horse there buddy. But it's very kind of you to call most people who play this game losers, really drives that point home with "Only RL losers pvp at low levels....".

[Yukahwa]

Only RL losers pvp at low levels for "pride" or PK recognition

Don't use messed up quotes to attack me and my argument without offering any defense for your standpoint.

My point is that there is no reason to go kill players that are EXPing in unrest except to get their item loot. If killing 50 percent HP players focusing on death beetles makes you feel good..you have a problem. Its just not fun unless there is some actual risk.

I use a short norman horse that is easier to get on when fully armored.

[gloinz]

Don't use messed up quotes to attack me and my argument without offering any defense for your standpoint.

My point is that there is no reason to go kill players that are EXPing in unrest except to get their item loot. If killing 50 percent HP players focusing on death beetles makes you feel good..you have a problem. Its just not fun unless there is some actual risk.

I use a short norman horse that is easier to get on when fully armored.

well a mr sigmund freud us pvp champs only kill ppl who are 50% focusing on death beetles wut u gonna do bout that

[Pudge]

make it exp loss only if you get killed by a player +/- 1 level of you.

that way ppl wont be losing much exp, until everyone hits max level already. this will deter end-game bind rushing and make a penalty for death, but take out a lot of the grief potential and fear of pvp

[Xareth]

I don't care about coin loot at all. I think it should be there..but item loot is way more important to me. Really really needs to be there. Low level PVP is just boring without it. Only RL losers pvp at low levels for "pride" or PK recognition so for people who arent losers IRL there is no reason to pvp at low levels at all without item loot.

That's certainly a blue way of looking at it. Ok, so back to the PVP server we're talking about, what reason do I need to kill??


Thats why I believe in playnice rules and Loot and Scoot because otherwise if lowbies do ever kill a twink they are going to have to corpse camp him until he logs off unless they want to find more interruptions to their leveling up.

LnS is a request. If you're talking about a non-leveling twink who sits in newb areas, I would deny that request and probably keep an eye on the zone...

[Xareth]

My point is that there is no reason to go kill players that are EXPing in unrest except to get their item loot. If killing 50 percent HP players focusing on death beetles makes you feel good..you have a problem. Its just not fun unless there is some actual risk.

You, sir, are a bluebie. Why not just duel? Or make it interesting - duel in the arena!!

[Daemrius]

I'm pretty much a novice to PvP, I only played for a few months at the start of kunark on RZ but I'll be damned if the item loot (if i remember correctly) wasn't a perk.

I understand the incredible suck of getting precious items ganked, but on the other end of the thing that's where the pure awesome comes in at. I think this adds to the allure of it all. Finding no drop gear, bagging your shit before dying, it makes things more interesting.

Only thing I'm not really for, since I've always played melee class is the loss of primary weapons. That totally destroys any melee character. It's like lifting a caster's best researched nuke from their spell book. Since i see casters getting an advantage, to some degree. there needs to be a balance to this matter (If i'm missing this, point it out to me, I'm novice /intermediate with pvp EQ )

[Crenshinabon]

Devs, please try out item loot on beta. Maybe try to have a poll or something in game to see if it is kept?

Would probably make more people want to "try" the beta test.

[mitic]

item loot, so i can grief meles 24/7 as a caster NAKID!

[Yukahwa]

Xareth I'm not a bluebie I'm just a rallos zek player that quit when they added augments and there was no incentive for me to try to kill players.

Don't be weak sauce and call people bluebies whenever you don't agree with them.

For me, killing players trying to get EXP isn't very satisfying. At least it doesn't prove im a really great player or anything. Its still sort of fun. Its a lot more fun when there is an actual reward in it for me..and even more fun when every time I attack someone I am placing a bet (my own gear) on myself winning that fight.

When I'm not wagering my own gear against the gear I might win, there is no excitement.

[Clyve]

Alright, so this thread has finally spurred me into creating a forum account.

I have been waiting for a classic PVP server for ages, used to play on VZ/TZ and while fun (and at times, hilariously racist), just wasn't quite right.

Before I get into the item loot topic, I would like to touch on the EXP with PVP. I think it's best to leave EXP out of PVP combat entirely. It's just going to lead to griefing or exploiting one way or the other.

Onto the real matter at hand in my opinion, and that is item loot. I am 100% for item loot on the new red server. It made Rallos Zek the most unique gaming experience I've ever had, and really added to the whole atmosphere of the game, probably making it 2nd on my list of all time atmospheric MMOs (with Neocron winning that title, but that's neither here nor there).

THIS BEING SAID: I love me some melee classes, and if the server is to go one item loot, items in bags and items in weapon slots should be off limits. If you allow players to loot a melee class' weapon, it is far too crippling to recover from. This is non-negotiable. It's the way it was on Rallos Zek, and it worked and worked well. Granted, the level +/- on RZ was only four, so we can expect to lose more of our shit on this server, but that's alright because it brings a whole new meaning to having backup (friends) and guilds in general.

Having item loot on PVP gives all the no drop gear that much more purpose as well. Shin gauntlets and greaves anyone?

It seems like there are a fair amount of arguments on both sides concerning item loot, but none of the arguments I've seen against item loot have had anything but baseless claims saying that it will decrease population, but without anything to back it up (I may have missed something as I skipped to the last page of the thread after 16).

I think even those people worried about item loot will find that it's really not that harmful as dying does no come instantly in EQ and you usually have more than enough time to start bagging your important shit if need be. If you're quick about it, you can usually bag all your stuff if you know you're done for (I got real good at bagging my equipment, all it took was 'Nakedmancer begins to cast a spell.').

I realize my post doesn't hold much water as a long time lurker with one post is the equivalent of a noob, but I think R99 will be much more fun with item loot, and those scared of it would be pleasantly surprised at the elements of fun and suspense it adds.

[mitic]

ok then, facts:

.) population on vztz increased by 100% the moment item loot was taken out
.) meles in classic are useless without gear vs. casters who can run around nakid and still do full dmg
.) once lvl 46+ is reached u wont care about itemloot anymore
.) good items need to be camped for hours to get a drop while u can lose them pretty fast in just one short lagspike

[Muaar]

PVP in oldworld EQ could be improved if caster classes couldnt cast spells without a magic item or something. But then the low levels would be ridiculous...

Naked mages are op but there's no easy way to make it so casters cant cast spells naked.

[Xareth]

Xareth I'm not a bluebie I'm just a rallos zek player that quit when they added augments and there was no incentive for me to try to kill players.

Don't be weak sauce and call people bluebies whenever you don't agree with them.

For me, killing players trying to get EXP isn't very satisfying. At least it doesn't prove im a really great player or anything. Its still sort of fun. Its a lot more fun when there is an actual reward in it for me..and even more fun when every time I attack someone I am placing a bet (my own gear) on myself winning that fight.

When I'm not wagering my own gear against the gear I might win, there is no excitement.

Please don't make me point out how contradictory this post is to your previous one.

That being said, there is no reward needed to pvp more than whines and cries, winning, and killing.

That is all. That's what you don't get. Item loot is just the cherry on top for true non-blues.

[Kelsar]

wait wait! I got it bros.
No boxing, No Lore, 1-Item Loot, No Primary & Secondary character loots (spare the melee clause of 1999), No banks, No Cheating, PLAY BALL!

[Disciple90]

after reading these replies, i can understand both arguments. My opinion would be to allow coin loot and no xp remove on death, unless its limited or reduced to almost nothing when killed by the same player again and again in a short time frame. Coin loot would encourage players to make frequent visits to the bank :P

[Crenshinabon]

limited or reduced to almost nothing when killed by the same player again and again in a short time frame.

This sounds like a good solution.

[juicedsixfo]

ok then, facts:

.) population on vztz increased by 100% the moment item loot was taken out
.) meles in classic are useless without gear vs. casters who can run around nakid and still do full dmg
.) once lvl 46+ is reached u wont care about itemloot anymore
.) good items need to be camped for hours to get a drop while u can lose them pretty fast in just one short lagspike

I don't care much about the first fact, but 2 and 4 are why item loot is unbalanced. I agree. Until spells are drops that can be looted and taken from your arsenal, it's just crooked as fuck.

[juicedsixfo]

Could you imagine finally getting your new main DD after days of camping a rare spawn, only to have it jacked? I have a very good feeling that anyone that's advocating for item loot intends on playing a caster.

[Crenshinabon]

pro item loot paladin right here baby

[Silikten]

Item loot is a very bad idea. It should only be coin loot.

[Muaar]

pod should turn people item loot active on this server

then those who wish to item loot can have fun raging each other without harming the poor carebears

[Yukahwa]

Any root or snare will land on a naked caster..then you can kill him. If he is wearing his smr its gunna be a little tougher but you might steal his robe. it works both ways. Casters are generally more powerful but a vigilant melee isn't going t to lose his important gear. You gotta be careful that's all there is to it.

When your risking your neck you wear banded. With trusted group in empty zone..do what you want. Its not a big deal.

[Clyve]

Could you imagine finally getting your new main DD after days of camping a rare spawn, only to have it jacked? I have a very good feeling that anyone that's advocating for item loot intends on playing a caster.

I am very pro item loot and I actually planned on playing a paladin. It's what I did on Rallos, it's what I'll do here.

The most expensive item I ever lost on Rallos was a Blackened Iron Crown and that was when I was triple shot by a nasty mage nuke and two bitch ass SK harm touches (I hated those two).

You learn early on when you lose that banded chest piece when and how to bag your shit properly. And you rarely if ever use your lay hands when fighting PvE.

[Kelsar]

When item loot is in the game, only newbies won't use the /who in their zone and every zone connected. The constant situation awareness, due to the potential loss of gear, is what drives immersion.

[Spike Spiegel]

WTF Who plays a video game to want to be aware of people surrounding them? I just want to sit down and relax and then feel badass when I kill lowbies. Last thing I want to do is get any cool item taken from me when I go AFK or something. Its just better when u dont have to worry about anything and its more like a blue server.

so NO ITEM LOOT

[Foxx]

honestly exp on this box is down right fucking gross..

i got too much shit to do than to grind 24 hours trait to get lvl 9

[Harrison]

^crybaby bitch can't handle real EQ pvp.

[Smedy]

Last thing I want to do is get any cool item taken from me when I go AFK or something.

Ok i don't support item loot, but not for this retarded reason, if you go afk, you're [A] [F]REE [K]ILL.

Don't go afk on pvp servers, log the fuck out or get your ass handed to you.

Bluebie scum

Also exp not that bad on p99, got 35 in a few weeks of playing.

[Yukahwa]

I don't think there is any real arguement for no item loot. The only people that really benefit are twink pks and folks too lazy to switch out gear. With item loot newbies actually have a chance and something worth doing.

[Xareth]

I don't think there is any real arguement for no item loot. The only people that really benefit are twink pks and folks too lazy to switch out gear. With item loot newbies actually have a chance and something worth doing.

The only argument is server population. Most people feel this is just a theory...they are dead wrong.

I am for item loot, but the majority isn't, and I'd rather have no item loot and 500+ average population than item loot and < 100.

[Billbike]

Monk staff was 29/41 that procced colorflux a pbae stun maybe .5 second duration.

Shaman staff was 1 second cast canni2.

Mage item had a 250hp clicky rune range slot.

Enchanter item summoned a 100lb gnome into the inventory of the opponent you clicked and would QQ about random things was based off a real player quandary who also played a dwarf cleric named drew i think and he had a mage, ended up getting banned for MQ or something.

Warrior Item was like 30/40 i think with a greater heal proc.

Bards got a 15/25 1hs with a haste proc?

Rogues got a sweet dagger that had a lifesteal proc i believe 12dmg/25 delay i think?

Rangers got a sweet bow with a nice fire proc I think.

wizards got a clicky debuff staff instant cast better than the temperate flux staff.

cant remember what clerics got at all

druids got a sleeve item with a 1 second cast snare effect i think.

I think this would be fun:

Have only 1 of each of these items on the server.
Make them all/all, no lvl req
Make them too big to fit in a bag
Make them player lootable upon pvp death, announce it serverwide in yellow text
Make the holder of the item distinguishable by having a title, or illusion

[Xareth]

I think this would be fun:

Have only 1 of each of these items on the server.
Make them all/all, no lvl req
Make them too big to fit in a bag
Make them player lootable upon pvp death, announce it serverwide in yellow text
Make the holder of the item distinguishable by having a title, or illusion

And you can't camp while the item is in your possession.

[Damaja]

One thing to remember, this isn't LIVE, this is Free Shard EQ so you make it too rough people have no reason to stay. I have played on nothing but PvP servers in every game I have ever played in so I have been around. Item loot was a BLAST but in the end most people ended up hating it. XP loss will end up promoting hard core griefing which will also runn people off, just make it coin loot. The corpse run plus coin loot will be enough to make it worth it.

If the server is more guild vs guild, that in itself will maintain the population strickly from the unity of guilds fighting other guilds. There needs to be a honor system among the players, allow corpse runs as long as there announced in ooc or whatever, enforce loot and scoot aka LnS and make it there needs to be an hour before the person can return to the zone. It may sound funny or even dumb to some but having a code of honor among the players themselves that is ENFORCED by the players will go a long way in maintaining the stability of the server.

[Silikten]

but having a code of honor among the players themselves that is ENFORCED by the players will go a long way in maintaining the stability of the server.

this ^^

[greatdane]

If you want the server to maintain an actual gameplay environment alongside its PvP scene, itemloot is pretty much out of the question. That hasn't really worked since way back in the day where people hadn't yet figured out that it's so contrary to the core gameplay of Everquest. If dying in PvP means losing your best item, there's no incentive to do what the entire game was designed for, and it would turn the server into a meaningless PvP arena. In order for the PvP to flourish and sustain itself, it needs a purpose, and that purpose is to win the rights to a camp/zone/raid or to build up your "PvP career" through accomplishments. Itemloot will just encourage griefing and create an uncontrollably hostile atmosphere while deterring most players from participating in what forms the foundation of the abovementioned purposes.

XP loss can work, but I would suggest limiting it to something like once or twice an hour so that fucktards won't jizz their pants from bind-camping some hapless newbie from level 30 to 20. Coin loot is fine. Most of the incentive for PvP should be in the fame and accomplishment of success, and the privilege to "own" a part of the game world for as long as you can conquer and defend it. Nothing that ruins characters, that was for games like UO where your character wasn't the result of months of hard work.

[Galacticus]

We are leaning towards a server with no item or coin loot, however there will be an XP Loss on PvP Deaths. We are open to discussion on this.

I think we have leant enough.

[Yukahwa]

Greatdane your argument doesn't hold up against the reality of item loot servers like Rallos Zek.

I don't like the fact that without item loot, it will be a race to level 50, a race to get the best items, and then make a twink at whatever level you want to dominate and you never have to think twice about that twink again, he is maxed out and almost impossible to kill. It doesn't require skill to do this, it just requires miserably surpassing those lowbie levels once and then camping all the junk you want. It means level 1-50 for first timers that hit the game a month after server release will be a miserable time simply avoiding these nonpunishable twinks and their whole goal will be to get to level 50 so they can start having a fighting chance too.

Not good. If anything is bad for server population, it is that. For those players, PVP without item loot is basically PVE except you also get killed by a twink in unrest sometimes. Whats the point? You dont get HUGE exp for killing a hugely hard to kill twink, and he'll be right back anyways.. so its just a nuisance. When you have a possibility to steal that rubicite BP its actually worth fighting back.

[Foxx]

item loot without pvp is actually the same as PVE except u get to compete and fight each other for camps, mobs, raids etc etc.... not just whatever group of losers have sat there for the last 100 hours.

perfect example was on kunark release on p99, when some guild (i forget which) just sat in the crypt in sebilis for over a week, just rotating players in the group not allowing anyone else to go there.. with pvp, you get to go kill them (or try to) and whoever is better gets the camp.

[Haul]

No coin loot is not rational.

[Yukahwa]

Foxx - You are totally right.

However, thats the only advantage of Non loot pvp. At level 50 (or 60 depending on the era) contested camps can be settled in a rational violent PVP manner. Its a great thing.

The problem is for folks getting into the server a month down the line trying to get to level 50. Its just not any fun getting killed for sport by a twink when there is really no incentive for you to figure out a way to overcome him.

With item loot, lowbies have strong incentive to gang together and basically make a haphazard raid on that twink for the chance of looting a piece of his sweet gear.

[trix]

I vote for exp gain on PvP kills, combined with permanent death for dying, full loot rights to ALL items and coins on the corpse including no drop, double exp rate, double drop rate for all non-common items, FFA PvP rules with no +/- level rules (anyone can kill anyone at any time anywhere), and double faction gain/lose rates.

Imagine that level 20 warrior who nobly sacrifices himself for the group. Instead of a simple "thanks dude" his sacrifice suddenly becomes much more meaningful. Worthy of remembering. Even worthy of befriending his "child" (next character he created) for life. Perhaps even looting the warrior and saving the gear for the child.

Imagine how much worthier you'd feel taking out that con yellow, knowing that failure means starting from scratch? Knowing that people even attempting to kill yellows is extremely rare.

Imagine someone kills your good friend or your roommate/brother/girlfriend/etc. Now you have real incentive to hunt them down and make certain they die for what they did. Or to pay someone to hunt them. Lives would finally have REAL WORTH!

I realize the chances of this happening are pretty much a big hell no, and that my preference is likely unpopular, but this would be my personal dream MMO. Unfortunately, there hasn't been one single MMO with the balls to run with this idea, though there have been a few half-assed attempts.

Ah well. Put me down for no xp-loss or gain and yes item and coin loot. Without permadeath xp loss is useless and xp gain is too exploitable.

[Yukahwa]

I loved the permanent death server on Live. What was it called again?

Anyone know the man behind Apostle? Or his ranger brother?

I think you can me are on the same page Trix, but I also agree that a permadeath server isn't one that could attract enough players on EMU.

[Foxx]

u should gain exp equal to about 35 red con mobs for each pvp kill

[greatdane]

Greatdane your argument doesn't hold up against the reality of item loot servers like Rallos Zek.

I don't like the fact that without item loot, it will be a race to level 50, a race to get the best items, and then make a twink at whatever level you want to dominate and you never have to think twice about that twink again, he is maxed out and almost impossible to kill. It doesn't require skill to do this, it just requires miserably surpassing those lowbie levels once and then camping all the junk you want. It means level 1-50 for first timers that hit the game a month after server release will be a miserable time simply avoiding these nonpunishable twinks and their whole goal will be to get to level 50 so they can start having a fighting chance too.

Not good. If anything is bad for server population, it is that. For those players, PVP without item loot is basically PVE except you also get killed by a twink in unrest sometimes. Whats the point? You dont get HUGE exp for killing a hugely hard to kill twink, and he'll be right back anyways.. so its just a nuisance. When you have a possibility to steal that rubicite BP its actually worth fighting back.

No. If anything is bad for a server population, it is the high likelihood of losing your best items on a regular basis. It hasn't worked since the early days of RZ where the concept was already on its last legs and little more than an homage to Ultima Online. The difference is that Ultima Online was designed for itemloot to function because the entire itemization and character development system was so fundamentally different from Everquest's. You'll also notice that much of RZ's population refrained from engaging in PvP, unlike the other PvP servers. It got to the point where PvPers were a frowned-upon minority, and I have to assume that this isn't a desirable goal for a PvP server.

As for twinks, you're not going to prevent them one way or the other. If someone decks a level 20 rogue out in the best possible gear, ten newbies in crushbone aren't going to beat him. The much more likely scenario is that ten newbies in Crushbone will lose their best items. In a game that's all about itemization and working for weeks and months to achieve some goal (usually in the form of items), the possibility of losing said items will deter many who would otherwise play the game. It's the choice between catering to a small group of people who think itemloot is necessary, or a much larger population who wouldn't have played on an itemloot server. The latter will lead to much more PvP, and much less dispute and incentive to cheat.

Without itemloot, people are able to play the game at their own pace. With itemloot, it'll be a mad dash to no-drop planar gear, and since it's a PvP server, you can bet one guild will claim the raid content and prevent anyone else from participating. With a small population, that is fully possible and has been seen repeatedly throughout the history of VZ/TZ. It's bad enough (and sort of inevitable) to have two demographics within the playerbase where one has all the raid gear and the other just has whatever can be acquired through group content or the market. It'd be quite a lot worse to have one population that can PvP freely without worrying about their own gear while routinely cashing in on weaker opponents. It amplifies the lopsided PvP environment that is already guaranteed on an Everquest PvP server, and it is painfully likely to lead to its own atrophy as eventually the latest incarnation of Heresy rules everything and takes everybody's lunch money to the point where nobody else can even enjoy the game.

Itemloot could work on a custom server where the gear is much more accessible and dying doesn't mean the loss of hours, days and weeks of work. In classic Everquest, it hasn't worked since the beginning where people didn't really know better. You'll notice that itemloot was removed from RZ and hasn't been attempted in any noteworthy MMORPG ever since, and that ought to be enough validation of its problems if the above arguments don't suffice.

I for one want a PvP server where I can PvP freely and whenever I want without having to worry about losing the only thing that distinguishes my character from others and the sole factor that determines how my character performs in combat, which is the only thing this game is about. Everquest's gameplay design is so profoundly counter-intuitive to the ideal of itemloot that it really should be obvious to anyone why it won't work. It hasn't worked since it was first attempted, and it could easily be argued that it didn't even work then. If you want your PvP environment to be one where beating your opponent isn't enough of for you, you'll also have to accept that the population of such an environment will be a tiny fraction of what it would otherwise have been, likely not enough to sustain Everquest's core gameplay.

A healthy, popular PvP server hinges on the incentive to fight as often as possible, and a disincentive to grief, cheat, and repeatedly kill people for reasons unrelated to the actual skill of winning in PvP. At the end of the day, it's a question of what the goal of the server is. If that goal is a small arena-like PvP game where the actual Everquest game is largely pointless, itemloot and weird custom rules are fine as long as you accept that it'll be nothing like Everquest. If you want p99's success and vast population (as close as you'll get with PvP, anyway - it's guaranteed to be less popular than p99) where the main purpose of PvP is competitive fun and a way for players to deal with problems like poopsocking, douchebaggery and inaccessible content, then a ruleset similar to Tallon or Vallon is the only real way to go. Character development has to be more or less secure if you want more than the small, destructive core of VZTZ griefers on the server. Do you want 50 or 300 players? That's ultimately the defining question.

[Foxx]

greatdane is clearly a fuckign bluebie with these novels he posts..

tldr

[greatdane]

Clearly.

[runlvlzero]

Item and Coin loot, yes
XP loss or gain no thanks, maybe loss, if balanced fairly

[Xareth]

No. If anything is bad for a server population, it is the high likelihood of losing your best items on a regular basis. It hasn't worked since the early days of RZ where the concept was already on its last legs and little more than an homage to Ultima Online. The difference is that Ultima Online was designed for itemloot to function because the entire itemization and character development system was so fundamentally different from Everquest's. You'll also notice that much of RZ's population refrained from engaging in PvP, unlike the other PvP servers. It got to the point where PvPers were a frowned-upon minority, and I have to assume that this isn't a desirable goal for a PvP server.

As for twinks, you're not going to prevent them one way or the other. If someone decks a level 20 rogue out in the best possible gear, ten newbies in crushbone aren't going to beat him. The much more likely scenario is that ten newbies in Crushbone will lose their best items. In a game that's all about itemization and working for weeks and months to achieve some goal (usually in the form of items), the possibility of losing said items will deter many who would otherwise play the game. It's the choice between catering to a small group of people who think itemloot is necessary, or a much larger population who wouldn't have played on an itemloot server. The latter will lead to much more PvP, and much less dispute and incentive to cheat.

Without itemloot, people are able to play the game at their own pace. With itemloot, it'll be a mad dash to no-drop planar gear, and since it's a PvP server, you can bet one guild will claim the raid content and prevent anyone else from participating. With a small population, that is fully possible and has been seen repeatedly throughout the history of VZ/TZ. It's bad enough (and sort of inevitable) to have two demographics within the playerbase where one has all the raid gear and the other just has whatever can be acquired through group content or the market. It'd be quite a lot worse to have one population that can PvP freely without worrying about their own gear while routinely cashing in on weaker opponents. It amplifies the lopsided PvP environment that is already guaranteed on an Everquest PvP server, and it is painfully likely to lead to its own atrophy as eventually the latest incarnation of Heresy rules everything and takes everybody's lunch money to the point where nobody else can even enjoy the game.

Itemloot could work on a custom server where the gear is much more accessible and dying doesn't mean the loss of hours, days and weeks of work. In classic Everquest, it hasn't worked since the beginning where people didn't really know better. You'll notice that itemloot was removed from RZ and hasn't been attempted in any noteworthy MMORPG ever since, and that ought to be enough validation of its problems if the above arguments don't suffice.

I for one want a PvP server where I can PvP freely and whenever I want without having to worry about losing the only thing that distinguishes my character from others and the sole factor that determines how my character performs in combat, which is the only thing this game is about. Everquest's gameplay design is so profoundly counter-intuitive to the ideal of itemloot that it really should be obvious to anyone why it won't work. It hasn't worked since it was first attempted, and it could easily be argued that it didn't even work then. If you want your PvP environment to be one where beating your opponent isn't enough of for you, you'll also have to accept that the population of such an environment will be a tiny fraction of what it would otherwise have been, likely not enough to sustain Everquest's core gameplay.

A healthy, popular PvP server hinges on the incentive to fight as often as possible, and a disincentive to grief, cheat, and repeatedly kill people for reasons unrelated to the actual skill of winning in PvP. At the end of the day, it's a question of what the goal of the server is. If that goal is a small arena-like PvP game where the actual Everquest game is largely pointless, itemloot and weird custom rules are fine as long as you accept that it'll be nothing like Everquest. If you want p99's success and vast population (as close as you'll get with PvP, anyway - it's guaranteed to be less popular than p99) where the main purpose of PvP is competitive fun and a way for players to deal with problems like poopsocking, douchebaggery and inaccessible content, then a ruleset similar to Tallon or Vallon is the only real way to go. Character development has to be more or less secure if you want more than the small, destructive core of VZTZ griefers on the server. Do you want 50 or 300 players? That's ultimately the defining question.

Can you read between the lines? No, because there's too fucking many of them

[Nirgon]

It's good for a classic experience and making no drop gear more valuable (the shittier planar pieces).

It's bad because it probably scares too many away.

[nilbog]

It's good for a classic experience and making no drop gear more valuable (the shittier planar pieces).

It's bad because it [item loot] probably scares too many away.

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

[Nirgon]

Not everyone is going to post their thoughts here that is going to hear about it and play it. You won't really truly ever know the real answer to that question.

What I do know is most people posting here are going to play it regardless :P. I think when the server shows up on the release screen, if you put up a poll on the main page before you really go ahead and open it.. that would be the best way to settle it by vote.

Over time, people will definitely qq and quit over losing an item :P. How many? I don't know. But how many people will continue playing longer because that is an incentive?

It also trims down the advantage the raiders have (read: droppable dragon haste) have over the average players.

Risking your diamond/blue diamond for an advantage is fun too, having a full suit where no one can ever get a piece off... I never liked that.

[lethdar]

The entire server's population doesn't browse these forums, and on top of that there i doubt many people would want to look lame by posting that.

A lot of the data comes from vztz's population, which went from low, sub 100 with item loot, up to a max of 350ish without item loot, down to a low of sub 100 on 3.0 until item loot was removed at which point it had a rebound upwards again.

While people point out "vztz =/= p99", the crowd they draw from are really probably more or less the same when it comes to what they're willing to tolerate in their eq gameplay. With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished, beyond the point of being willing to play on vztz for a significant portion of them. If anything this problem is likely to be worse on red99 due to the greatly increased time required to farm any item that would be lost when x2 wizards pop in and 1 shot some unsuspecting person.

I played, Guildwars, VZTZ,other emulated servers etc, and I'll be playing either way, however what I would like is a larger server with more people to encounter and fight and everything I've experienced on these various servers indicates that item loot scares and griefs away more players than coin loot.

I don't see why this trend wouldn't continue here.

[Envious]

I dont think anyone will admit to not playing with item loot, but its just too hard on the melees. And esp tanks. They need the items to be able to pvp, and the gearing up time is just too rough to risk it.

On P99 I have seen people spend 20hr straight at frenzy, with no sash. You really think people will not /ragequit when they spend a week+ farming frenzy with guild etc, just to have it ganked when they go grab a drink?

And before you "Should long when you get a drink, or should have bagged it" yeah, I know. But its gonna happen, and most of the people posting here from VZ/TZ have no fucking clue about the drop %s on P99.

Personally, I dont care either way. But I see it being better for population with no item loot. And messing with the loot tables always means taking more than 1 shot to figure it out, so better to leave as it is, and no item loot imo.

But I would still play.

[Nirgon]

If VZTZ was blue it woulda had the same / less pop probably, argue that one.

You can also argue the people that left VZ/TZ didn't feel like they should have to risk any of the advantage they had there which was a lot of it.

This also addresses level range specific twinks having no risk.

I dont think we're looking at a top heavy, MQ'ing population here. Nor are we looking at an entirely like minded player base.

[Envious]

De-leveling and twinking was part of the fun.

Teuful (Previously lvl 55 DE warrior, de-leveled to 20, with full planar + fungi + FoZ + Jade Mace + Zerker Cloak + Full Resist gear)

[Nirgon]

Yeah if you wanna do that and risk your fungi in the world I remember, have fun with that man :P.

Again, the classic xp.

[Yukahwa]

With item loot people who are new to playing or new to eq pvp are severely punished...

This is an argument that I strongly disagree with. The very first time I played rallos zek, it was a blast. I was brand new, got killed mercilessly dozens of times, but it was a lot of fun. Greater faydark was larger and darker then and around every corner could be a guy just waiting to take me out. I was utterly poor in the game, but it was the most fun I've ever had.

The goal of course was for me to one day go and kill those players and attain the items that made them so powerful. I fought with them constantly and tried to catch them when they were weak since that was the only time I had a chance. This is all below level 10.

Without item loot, all I am doing is fighting someone who vastly overpowers me who will respawn in a few seconds and come kill me again. There is simply no reason to fight these players, it really makes every level besides the highest level suck.

Yes, with item loot an individual can bag...but for a weakling like I was in those early days, that itself was a victory. I got to shout in the zone about it, and with each valuable item bagged, that strong PK became less powerful and easier to kill.

Really it is non item loot that hurts new players by making the entire new dynamic (PVP) rewardless. Many players will go to a zone to level up..great. Some guy will come to try to kill them..bummer. With item loot there are 2 options.

1. PK is geared poorly because he doesn't want to lose his good gear..Result = PK is easy to kill and force out of the zone.

2. PK is geared well and has good items...Result = me and my grinding group will try to take him out or if there is a group..we will try to take ONE of them out and get something for our pains. We might have to leave but we also might regroup after first being wiped and try to kill 1 of those well geared guys. If they all start bagging then they get easier to kill.

Without item loot there is only 1 option. The PK will be twinked as well as he can afford, he will be hard to kill solo or in a team, and he will overpower you unless you are also a twink grinding up an alt.

Please dont tell me that casters don't need gear. The only players that can't kill a naked caster easily (SOLO) are rogues, monks, and warriors. Everyone else can either root or snare or blind the naked caster and kill them in under a minute when wielding a minotaur battle axe or better. Whoever attacks first in this case is likely to be the winner.

Yes. A solo warrior will lose to a solo mage. Warrior's are not a solo class and these low levels are going to be tough. That is an irrefutable fact regardless of item loot on/off. Even maxed out in old world your resists are going to be very poor, so PLEASE don't say that a melee needs item loot off. Melees have their own advantages and any melee trying to level up should be in a group anyways. A melee + any caster can easily take out a magician. Bronze provides enough AC throughout the old world to get you to level 50 without real problems as a tank. If you want to wear your fancy stuff its a risk. If a mage wears his oracle robe its a risk for him too. Without the oracle robe he has very little mana to kill you when you have any friend with you.

It really works o.k. considering the fact that the game was not really meant for well rounded PVP. Its not as balanced as a rock paper scissors match..but its not as boring either.



CONCLUSION - for anyone who doesn't like to read.

1. PVP without item loot for the poor and weak means PVP is just a nuisance. It gets in the way of attaining the levels and gear you want. The only goal is to get to level 50, get good gear, and then when you get bored make a twink PK of your own.

2. PVP with item loot means PVE and PVP engagements can both be rewarding. PVE is rewarding because it gets you the levels that bring you closer to better gear and a more even footing with PK's. PVP is rewarding because it can also earn you a piece of gear that makes you more powerful, or just richer.

[Nirgon]

Not everyone is going to attack every person they see. I also don't think the goal here is to create incentive to PvP like previous emu servers/projects. Many people think that is the case. This is a server with the option of pvp, not an arena death match.

I'd even debate the 8 level range versus a 4 level range with item loot, but I know the "nay"s would be all over that and I'd risk being labeled a bluebie.

[Yukahwa]

I won't call you a bluebie. Your opinions are valid and you have valid points and valid concerns about the drawbacks of item loot.

There needs to be an incentive for people who dont want to PVP to fight off those that do want to PVP. The server doesn't have a PVP option. It is forced. All of Norrath is the arena.

If there is no incentive to PVP for grinding players trying to get to level 50, it is just a hassle. Rest assured, wherever you go to level, you will be hunted by someone. Even if you don't want to PVP it will happen to you. If there is no possible positive outcome to fighting a PK..why do it?

[Cfullard]

I played on Vallon Zek when they switched to item loot, and let me explain how this was good and bad. It was amazing fun because I got to actually use the gear I worked hard to obtain anywhere but in a PvE situation. It was bad because it promoted low level twinks running around in fungal tunics as melee and ruining the experience for low levels.

Teams pushed teamwork, and it worked amazing. It worked so well there were raids where one side would invade another region, again lots of fun to be hard there. Teams also pushed cross-teaming but back then the Vallon Zek and Tallon Zek code wasn't like Sullon Zek. Had TZ and VZ (not that abortion free server that keeps popping up like a strange plague) actually had this coding I believed the server would have been so amazing.

A lot of people complained (read whine) that if they can't group with their friends then the server sucks. Well I would suggest you coordinate with your friends so you all end up on the same side. (But what if they don't want to) then kill them, pretty simple isn't it?

Teams PvP promotes community and promotes teamwork, FFA pvp promotes guilds, nothing more. Teams PvP promotes area domination and also promotes fighting for land, you can't have that on FFA.

All I know is, if red 99 ends up being another FFA PvP server with no item loot / coin loot and what have you, I won't be playing there. I am looking forward to a teams based PvP server, something that hasn't been done as of yet. If I want the same old hat VZTZ, im sure another server will pop up in a week.

4 Teams PvP
Item Loot
Coin Loot
No Xp Loss / No Xp Gain
Just like it was on live. It worked EXTREMELY well there, and thus I think it will work extremely well here.

[Billbike]

Item loot fails because of bagging and the risk of ganking.

Gank squads will be at every druid ring and wiz spire.

Everyone will end up playing casters, who can kill naked. Why risk pvp when it's more of a risk for your class?(melee/hybrid)

Most fights are predetermined. The one who initiates the pvp wins prolly 75% of the time. If said initiater is better geared, higher level, or just the right class, it jumps to near 100%.

So why would that player who is being attacked not immediately run/gate and or start bagging their valuables?

[Cfullard]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the majority of FFA PvP on the past red servers? 94% of the population was some caster class or a hybrid (bard)

[Nirgon]

And melee assist trains decided wins for raid content. Hate to be the bearer of the truth.

[Billbike]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the majority of FFA PvP on the past red servers? 94% of the population was some caster class or a hybrid (bard)

So encouraging that environment will make the server more fun?

I never played p1999, but I'm confident that it's high population isn't due to 75% of the server being naked/cloth casters.

I thought everyone wanted a p1999 server with pvp turned on?

And Teams pvp just means oor healers, because in the end everyone will group with everyone.

[lethdar]

Holy shit Cfullard is a troll or the most retarded person to post on these forums yet.

ITEM LOOT TO PROMOTE MELEES IN PVP.

[Nirgon]

It is more of an issue do you want the top players to have to risk things like their cobalt bp or cloak of flames in fights.

I can see the argument on either side. What I can't see is the future and what needs to be held is a poll of in favor or not.

Of course, during a beta if you come up and do the on the spot interview with the person who lost an item "what do you think of item loot!?".. you know what their answer will be.

If you go with classic xp, not having item loot is fine. Having item loot certainly makes how you treat others a more serious matter and furthers the pk/anti-pk mentality. Anti-pks certainly go to war, and by PK I mean attack anyone at random versus enjoying the luxury of beating down someone who is generally a pos.

I'd strongly disagree with 8 level item loot. I'd agree with 4 levels and item loot.

The way I see things going and to keep ragequitting down and interesting at the same time, go with 8 levels and coin. My vote is still for item :P. 4 levels and item is the way the brilliant creators went with RZ and it is no mystery why the all range or 8 level servers didn't have item loot.

[Tajin]

Item loot fails because of bagging and the risk of ganking.

Gank squads will be at every druid ring and wiz spire.

Everyone will end up playing casters, who can kill naked. Why risk pvp when it's more of a risk for your class?(melee/hybrid)

Most fights are predetermined. The one who initiates the pvp wins prolly 75% of the time. If said initiater is better geared, higher level, or just the right class, it jumps to near 100%.

So why would that player who is being attacked not immediately run/gate and or start bagging their valuables?

Have u ever played on a pvp server, are you really saying there won't be gank squads if item loot was turned off??? You must have serious case of the downs. People who bag have a bigger chance of dying due to decline in stats. If you are good at EQ, u can avoid death at all costs. It all comes down to u needing to play better.
Stop worrying about population declining because item loot is on.... the server will be epic regardless... This is like beating a dead horse. You p99 bluebies will get griefed off the server with or w/o item loot so dont ruin the real pvpers fun.

[Tajin]

No one wants to get Yellow Texted, so i would say about 90% of people even with item loot off will run/gate if they arent ready for pvp.

[Pudge]

supposedly there will be no YT... :(

no YT, no OOC.. sad panda.

YT was really a good thing. it told the entire server if someone was being a dick (random PKing newbs, or bind camping) and also if something exciting was going on, like big pvp over plane of air, etc. ..................

sad days with no YT :( i dont know of any ppl YT ever made quit. YT + OOC might do that, but YT by itself is all goodness

[Yukahwa]

It is definitely a fact that if item loot is ON than the pvp level limit will need to be tightened up to somewhere near 4 levels.

It is definitely a fact that gank quads will be on PVP server regardless of item loot on/off. In one case they will be max twinked in another case they might give some pieces of gear second thoughts.

[Billbike]

Yea it's true, iv never played on a pvp server and I have downs.

But in reality, i played on TZ, vztz 2.0 and 3.0

I can tell you from personal experience, item loot will inevitably lower the population of a emu pvp server.

It is fact

Players do not need item loot as motivation to pvp.

Reputation, guilds jockeying for raid zones, fighting over exp and named camps, or revenge IS enough motivation.

No need to add a dynamic that can negatively effect the very balance and distribution of the classes that make up the server. (people make casters as opposed to what people really wanted to play)

[erada464]

Thanks a lot

[Yukahwa]

Billbike there are more levels to everquest than 50 and 60. At level 15 in unrest on your first character you have nothing and if someone beat you to making a twink he can own that zone 24/7 and there is nothing you can do to him and nothing to drive you to overcome him.

Its stupid. It makes PVP a mostly a nuissance for lvl 1-40. People will still choose a caster if they want to win 1 vs 1 fights what the heck are you talking about? A melee decked out in non planar gear will have basically zero resists, give me a break. That argument just doesn't make sense. If people want to WIN at pvp they wont be a warrior. If they want to group and kick butt and have a good time, they will be. Item loot or not a mage will dominate a warrior.

[Xareth]

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

I honestly think that pro item looters are the minority, though maybe by just a bit - say 45 / 55 or 40 / 60. Others have pointed out that the sample you are getting from the message boards isn't a good reflection of the population as a whole.

I am 100% for item loot, and will probably play a rogue classic..., but I think what it will do to the population is not worth it. I think we're talking 5-600 instead of 2-300 off the bat. But who knows, it'll probably depend on the ruleset.

And as you said, it'll be a no drop quest fest.


+1 to Lethdar's entire post.

I dont think anyone will admit to not playing with item loot, but its just too hard on the melees. And esp tanks. They need the items to be able to pvp, and the gearing up time is just too rough to risk it.

This is the truth. Casters rule till planar, and most non-casters don't have the cahones to see through a real grind to 46 with item loot.


This is an argument that I strongly disagree with. The very first time I played rallos zek, it was a blast. I was brand new, got killed mercilessly dozens of times, but it was a lot of fun. Greater faydark was larger and darker then and around every corner could be a guy just waiting to take me out. I was utterly poor in the game, but it was the most fun I've ever had.

You are the anomaly. Bluebies fucking hate being killed mercilessly once, let alone multiple times. Look at the server list for EQ live...why so many PvE servers bro? Because most people that play EQ are blue to the max.

[JayDee]

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

you really have your finger on the pulse of the community

do you denote sarcasm

[Goobles]

exp for pvp kills too, imo.

[Billbike]

Billbike there are more levels to everquest than 50 and 60. At level 15 in unrest on your first character you have nothing and if someone beat you to making a twink he can own that zone 24/7 and there is nothing you can do to him and nothing to drive you to overcome him.

Its stupid. It makes PVP a mostly a nuissance for lvl 1-40. People will still choose a caster if they want to win 1 vs 1 fights what the heck are you talking about? A melee decked out in non planar gear will have basically zero resists, give me a break. That argument just doesn't make sense. If people want to WIN at pvp they wont be a warrior. If they want to group and kick butt and have a good time, they will be. Item loot or not a mage will dominate a warrior.

Let's just stick to the vote. When I played on live, 3 of the 4 pvp servers were no item loot, I wonder why?

So if I (downs pvp virgin) want to play basketball (pvp) in the NBA (r99) and win, I need to be of African decent (caster in this example) because of my genetics (class play mechanics in an environment that makes it easier for certain classes to exploit the rules of the server)?

[Nirgon]

They were no item loot because of 8 or no level range. I bet Tzvz sucked with item loot given the wide spread MQ usage.

[trafik3535]

Thanks a lot...

[Billbike]

Ok, basic math escapes me I guess.

Limiting the level range to 4 levels (for item loot) would raise the amount of pvp on a server with 300 people?

[Yukahwa]

Xareth - The fact that I could get killed many times and still enjoyed playing PVP really doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is item loot on the server. I didn't have anything worth looting at all..this is lvl 1 I'm talking about. I was still killed just for the fun of killing me.

Bluebies that can't handle dying this way will certainly not play on R99. For everyone else, I think they are more likely to stick around if they dont get dominated by people 8 levels more powerful then them..and the twinks that do dominate them actually represent an opportunity for a nice piece of droppable gear instead of an unstoppable unpunishable force.

[istealbicycles]

wow I think xp death is no good. We need at least coin loot though because if you are not smart enough to bank or destory your coin then its mine!!!!!

[Nirgon]

I'm saying 8 levels and coin is smart for the server. Adding xp loss in raid zones is maybe a good idea. You'd have to consider solb, seb being primary leveling areas with legit raid targets. Continue to think about this and you run into zones like EJ which are high traffic areas with a raid mob.

I think you're best off allowing player enforced loot and scoot, 8 levels and coin. A high population is the most important part and it is true that item loot will hurt the population overall.

Training should only be considered in blatant cases, aka: a single person comes hauling it in with 20 mobs on him. The grey areas of mobs that become involved during pvp in zones is going to happen, be insane to enforce and in enforced cases create "GM favoritism/server ruined" situations despite best efforts.

Intentional xp loss on Rallos was enforced by GMs and that'd smack you down something good for doing it upon investigation.

I do not remember the exact rules that covered trains in raid zones but I do know for a fact there was a suspension issued for someone dispelling the Statue of Rallos Zek and causing a wipe. Do I agree with that decision? I dunno :P.

[Knuckle]

I agree. I think item loot gives a reason to do non-popular quests which yield no drop pieces.

I have yet to see someone say they would personally be scared away, but they fear for others being scared away.

Is there anyone that wouldn't play item loot pvp, for fear of losing/gaining a non-primary/non-secondary droppable item?

I wouldn't mind item loot but it's been proven over the course of many VZTZ boxxes that players demand it be removed/stop playing when it's in for more than a few months. I think item loot will yield far greater griefing than serverwide yellow text ever could.

[Nirgon]

What it does add is having to risk valuable resist gear or dragon haste for an advantage. That said, it will turn into quits/crying. If you're a more experienced pvper, you should be fine with item loot enabled.

[greatdane]

Just having a rule against training will significantly reduce occurrences. Not every case will be investigated, but if it's actually allowed, I can guarantee that it will become a hugely common tactic. It has to be disallowed or you can fully expect everyone to use training as their primary means of content-dispute PvP. Enemy guild raiding? Train them. Want that camp? Train them. Someone talked shit? Train his group. It was so retardedly widespread on SZ that it was impossible to play the game at times, because all it took was one or two dedicated trainers to basically prevent you from raiding or XPing at all. There should be a rule against training, and the administrators should only be expected to inestigate cases where someone can provide visible evidence that proves clearly that someone deliberately trained. For anything else, the simple fact that there's a rule against it will largely prevent it from becoming the norm. Just because you can't make a phenomenon disappear completely by disallowing it does not mean that disallowing it serves no purpose. Crime takes place all the time in real life, but if there were no laws or they didn't sometimes get enforced, it would be completely out of control. The rules will be enough to keep it on a manageable level, and then they can investigate cases that are actually important and documented enough to warrant it. Training is so effortless and almost impossible to combat, and I certainly don't feel like playing a game where getting trained regularly is just an accepted reality.

[Nirgon]

Being that guy who trains people or random pking has a certain stigma attached to it. Reputation is going to matter just a little bit more here than previous pvp boxes given a higher population.

[greatdane]

Yeah, but training is a lot more destructive and you can single-handedly wipe out entire raids that way, with XP deaths for everyone. With PKing, you at least have to actually win.

[Yukahwa]

Training should never be officially allowed. Retards that do it regularly will wind up banned with the whole community laughing at them. It will happen intentionally without consequences sometimes and maybe even too often, but every once in a while the hammer needs to come down at snuff the bad behavior out.

That just me.

I think item loot should be tried for at least 4 months..if at 4 months the only people complaining about item loot are high level panzy men then it should stick around. I really have a heart for the low level game because that is where I had the most fun in the past, and it aint fun being the dealer of ultimate death with an unkillable super twink (no challenge) and it aint fun being on the receiving end when theres no chance of one day getting to loot that guy (no hope).

[Nirgon]

Yeah obvious and intentional training should get a smack in the mouth but you can't say any mob aggro'd as a result of pvp or people making a mistake is training. It has to be blatant and obvious, otherwise, well it happens.

This is going to be a major point for managing the server and something official has to be stated and consistently enforced. This is whether or not people like it, they do have to be consistent.

[Wonton]

Coin loot: YES! Right clicking a corpse and hearing those uber sound effects ROCK!
Item loot: NO WAI MON! Here's a good reason why:

People will check it out, yes. However after losing every piece of armor they have they're not going to stick around. Hardcore players might not mind losing a GEB, mith arms, mith legs, fbss, etc, but a casual may just nerdrage right off the server once they see themselves losing items that they've invested dozens of hours farming.

Item loot is the worst thing you could have to keep people playing on the server, particularly when its a single box only environment. Good luck with life as a solo melee / hybrid without caster backup for god knows how long with red99's xp lvl.

XP Loss: your server broski rogean

[Cfullard]

Let's just stick to the vote. When I played on live, 3 of the 4 pvp servers were no item loot, I wonder why?

Originally ALL the PvP servers (Minus Sullon Zek which came out with no item loot from the start) were item loot and coin loot as well as coin loot. There was a large population of players there as well, and the PvP was a fun even if you did lose items. You had no casters, yes, but all in all the server was still a lot of fun and people still fought in gear even if they were casters.

The answer to why the servers were changed to no-item loot was because carebears got tired of farming items when they were ganked so they whined, and whined, and whine some more. Sony listened to the whiners because "Everquest is first and foremost a PvE game" So the loot system to no item loot / coin only and guess what happened? High end PvP mostly stopped and there were a LOT, a LOT more PvP twinks running around from the level ranges of 8-16 (because level 8 is when you could start PvPing players.)

I encourage item loot because yes, you can get ganked but it also forces players to be more situationally aware and observe their surroundings. It also makes players be more cautious with their play and actually think about their odds of survival when they engage. Yes, there was a LOT less warriors, but I honestly can say it didn't kill them off.

And to the trolls. If you can't give a good arguement to support your claim? Shut the hell up.

[greatdane]

Originally ALL the PvP servers (Minus Sullon Zek which came out with no item loot from the start) were item loot and coin loot as well as coin loot. There was a large population of players there as well, and the PvP was a fun even if you did lose items. You had no casters, yes, but all in all the server was still a lot of fun and people still fought in gear even if they were casters.

The answer to why the servers were changed to no-item loot was because carebears got tired of farming items when they were ganked so they whined, and whined, and whine some more. Sony listened to the whiners because "Everquest is first and foremost a PvE game" So the loot system to no item loot / coin only and guess what happened? High end PvP mostly stopped and there were a LOT, a LOT more PvP twinks running around from the level ranges of 8-16 (because level 8 is when you could start PvPing players.)

I encourage item loot because yes, you can get ganked but it also forces players to be more situationally aware and observe their surroundings. It also makes players be more cautious with their play and actually think about their odds of survival when they engage. Yes, there was a LOT less warriors, but I honestly can say it didn't kill them off.

And to the trolls. If you can't give a good arguement to support your claim? Shut the hell up.

Or, as it is known in English, the majority were against it and Sony wisely catered to the majority. It shouldn't be too difficult to understand, nor is it a huge mystery why all three itemloot servers got rid of itemloot. PvPing for gear is fun for a little while, but even winning a piece loses its novelty after a while as people figure out that the whole gear aspect of the game - by far the most prominent part of Everquest - is rendered largely pointless when you can and will lose your items on a regular basis. Having to fight without gear on isn't fun, nor is the insane imbalance that occurs when you compare what each class can do without gear. If you choose to wear your gear, you face a number of realities that just kill the game for most: lose link? Lose your best item. Get raped by a ganksquad? Lose your best item. Get one-shot by some overpowered crap? Lose your best item. Your child is about to drink oven cleaner and you have to run and stop him? Lose your best item. We're not in high school anymore, and the prospect of losing what might have taken days or weeks to acquire is just not an appealing feature anymore. Everquest's already sketchy PvP becomes even worse when you can't rely on itemization to do its part to even out what wasn't designed very well. It seems pretty clear that most people are starkly against itemloot, so until a poll proves otherwise, it's hard to take anyone seriously when they claim that itemloot is an important part of EQ PvP. To me, it completely ruins it. The incentive to grief and cheat becomes too big, the inherent imbalances become hugely amplified, and the actual EQ gameplay becomes meaningless. Itemloot would only have a place if this was some insular arena game based wholly on the act of fighting evenly matched fights against other players. Since that's not the case, itemloot can stay the hell away.

[Xareth]

Let's just stick to the vote. When I played on live, 3 of the 4 pvp servers were no item loot, I wonder why?

So if I (downs pvp virgin) want to play basketball (pvp) in the NBA (r99) and win, I need to be of African decent (caster in this example) because of my genetics (class play mechanics in an environment that makes it easier for certain classes to exploit the rules of the server)?

Hahahaha I love it

Xareth - The fact that I could get killed many times and still enjoyed playing PVP really doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is item loot on the server. I didn't have anything worth looting at all..this is lvl 1 I'm talking about. I was still killed just for the fun of killing me.

Bluebies that can't handle dying this way will certainly not play on R99. For everyone else, I think they are more likely to stick around if they dont get dominated by people 8 levels more powerful then them..and the twinks that do dominate them actually represent an opportunity for a nice piece of droppable gear instead of an unstoppable unpunishable force.

1. Dying sucks. If you have marginalized the importance of winning, then kudos to you.

2. You won't be able to pvp until 6+ I'm assuming, and it's not like it will take an hour to get there.

3. If it's item loot then the +/- 8 (most favorable) range could be reassessed - reason being the same reason why item loot will shrink the population.

[Silikten]

I think item loot should be +/- 4 levels for battles to actually be somewhat fair. An 8 level gap is just futile for the -8 character ><

[gloinz]

I think item loot should be +/- 4 levels for battles to actually be somewhat fair. An 8 level gap is just futile for the -8 character ><

this is clearly bluebie talk

[Nirgon]

So, the PvE centric game... with a *separate* pvp server... needed pve catered to that separate server? I think giving into the cry babies is what has made games suck more and more as the genre moves "forward". Grab your flat brimmed hat, techno music and dust up your lips with cheetos cuz your pixels are now safe in the modern game. Death means nothing, player interaction has no real value, just acting like idiots crying over pixels. The best pvp you get is two people trying to tag a mob first and then fight with each other and CSR over it.

Ok, go on.. I'd say something but I think Gloin covered it. Someone has had some nasty pvp run-ins in the past :(.

I you want the server to be more blue, there's one that's already like that and you don't even have to reroll to play it.

This just needs to be settled with a poll and resolved for good.

[pickled_heretic]

no xp loss, most people will be afraid to pvp at all 30+ with exp loss as it is. it also forces more time be spent pveing to level if you die, which is pretty counterintuitive for a pvp server. I would actually be in support of XP loss if you got XP for killing someone, e.g. you kill someone, you get their lost exp. I just don't want to have the rules support a negative sum game where everyone loses in the long term. But i'm sure something like this won't be implemented.

as far as loot: full coin loot, 1 item that is not held in addition. that way, you can pvp, and get gear and lewt for pvping.

[greatdane]

You're welcome to make a poll. People have already spoken, though, and you can simply look back through this thread and see page after page of people saying no to itemloot with the occasional person every other page saying yes. That's strike one against itemloot: the majority is against it.

Next, let's look at the purpose of red99. I think it's safe to say that its main function is to provide classic Everquest without p99's biggest problem: the inability for players to settle disputes among themselves. Hopefully it'll provide an entertaining and dynamic PvP environment as well, especially considering the increasing interest (from people most of whom don't want itemloot - how about that). It's not to provide a griefing-centric PvP arena with as contentious and unruly community, which is what itemloot promotes. The more it hurts to die and the more you gain from cheating, griefing and being a complete douchebag, the worse the community will be. That's strike two against itemloot: it conflicts with what the server tries to provide.

Besides that, let's ponder what itemloot actually does to the PvP environment: it essentially discourages PvP for anyone who gives a shit about their gear, and while there are some who don't, it's obvious that most do. It also completely wrecks the actual fights as people will either fight naked or will stop fighting back as soon as they're at a disadvantage so they can instead frantically cram their gear into bags. There's no need to go into great detail about how unspeakably unbalanced EQ PvP is without gear - fully half of the classes cannot function without it while several other classes are barely affected by going naked - the classes that already have the advantage even against geared opponents. There is some minor merit to the fact that itemloot makes the actual outcome of a PvP fight more exciting because of the potential for loss/gain of equipment, but it would be naïve to argue that this doesn't come at the total expense of the quality of those fights. Strike three against itemloot: it makes for shitty PvP.

Finally, let's let common sense do the talking: you miss the itemloot feature that existed in the game's infancy over a decade ago. You were probably in high school then, the game was new, you could put in eight hours a day, and itemloot was perceived as part of PvP simply because it was a continuation of the Ultima Online tradition. Once it became evident that Everquest's gameplay was profoundly different and didn't mesh at all with itemloot, the problems became immediately obvious. Most people stopped wanting to PvP, itemloot was removed from all three servers, and no MMORPG has ever bothered with it since. If you're one of the apparent minority who cannot enjoy PvP that doesn't include the possibility of taking other players' items, you may just have to accept that a PvP server that caters to the majority and aims to provide actual Everquest with a PvP theme, instead of Grieftown 2011, might simply not seek to satisfy to you. Trying to argue against the majority and common sense seems a little futile.

But go ahead and make a poll if you want it in numbers. Democracy is a wonderful thing.

[Yukahwa]

People that wear items on item loot servers are more powerful and more likely to win PVP conflicts. People that "give a shit about their gear" and never wear it simply get dominated time and time again. Yeah, A warrior should swap his crafted out for bronze when its utter lack of resists aren't doing him any good vs. a caster..but that is just common sense.

Again if you want a blue server lets just stick with P99 as it is.

No item loot allows twinks free reign. It sucks.

[Billbike]

Twinking is fun.

[Nirgon]

What you risk with the poll is the bluebies troll voting for item loot :).

Again, I agree that the server will last longer without it. What I will miss is people having to risk their resist gear to have an advantage. I will miss no drop pieces being more valuable or people running and frantically bagging gear. I've been on both sides of it, gaining and losing items. What it will boil down is how prevalent nerd rage is within the community... the force is strong with this one.

Most of these threads are just continuing the same argument in circles, I think the points have been made. The people posting here will play it either way, unless maybe there's hard coded teams.

[greatdane]

If anyone who doesn't agree with you is a bluebie whose opinion doesn't matter, I can see that discussion is pointless with you. I'm confident that the developers will make what they perceive to be the right choice, and that their choice doesn't blindly ignore the majority or the numerous arguments that have been made repeatedly in this thread.

[Nirgon]

Maybe the majority doesn't know what's best for them in the long run?

[greatdane]

Oh, come on.

[Nirgon]

Rather than let the masses (trolls) decide, let big Nilbog mull things over and make it happen.

[Xareth]

I think item loot should be +/- 4 levels for battles to actually be somewhat fair. An 8 level gap is just futile for the -8 character ><

While gloinz is right, +/- 4 is just too comfortable for a pvp environment. There won't be nearly enough chars that can hit you, ezquest...

[Xareth]

Next, let's look at the purpose of red99. I think it's safe to say that its main function is to provide classic Everquest without p99's biggest problem: the inability for players to settle disputes among themselves. Hopefully it'll provide an entertaining and dynamic PvP environment as well, especially considering the increasing interest (from people most of whom don't want itemloot - how about that).

The main function is to provide classic EQ without pussy coding preventing the killing of other players.

It's not to provide a griefing-centric PvP arena with as contentious and unruly community, which is what itemloot promotes. The more it hurts to die and the more you gain from cheating, griefing and being a complete douchebag, the worse the community will be. That's strike two against itemloot: it conflicts with what the server tries to provide.

Do you even like pvp? Do you want WoW Battlegrounds / Arena??

And as for the rest of it, you are probably right that item loot is not the most popular option, but consider this: the best part of pvp is the crying that ensues after a kill, and nothing promotes whining and nerdraging like itemloot.

[greatdane]

The main function is to provide classic EQ without pussy coding preventing the killing of other players.

That's exactly what I said in the bit you quoted. The purpose is to provice classic EQ with PvP so that players can deal with other players themselves.

Do you even like pvp? Do you want WoW Battlegrounds / Arena??

How does my saying that the purpose of the server isn't to provide a PvP arena indicate that I want an arena? Do you actually read or just randomly quote stuff? There needs to be space for the actual Everquest game, otherwise the PvP becomes kinda meaningless. Itemloot hinders gameplay.

the best part of pvp is the crying that ensues after a kill, and nothing promotes whining and nerdraging like itemloot.

I disagree. The best part of PvP is the quality and frequency of fights. Itemloot compromises both. It might make the result of a fight somewhat more interesting because of the potential exchange of an item, but the fight itself is often shit as people can't comfortably adhere to the designed itemization, nor are they likely to try to overcome a disadvantage during the fight because bagging all gear suddenly becomes infinitely more important than fighting back when it looks like you might lose.

You can argue that itemloot makes for a more exciting PvP environment, because that's an opinion. I don't think it's really possible to argue that it doesn't make the quality of that PvP worse and real fights less frequent, though. There's plenty of incentive to PvP both for the sake of winning and making a name for yourself, and to regulate the gameplay when necessary. Itemloot doesn't play a part in that, it just discourages the kind of fights that are entertaining and memorable.

[Xareth]

That's exactly what I said in the bit you quoted. The purpose is to provice classic EQ with PvP so that players can deal with other players themselves.

Exactly, I didn't say you were wrong. It's just the way you look at it. I read your posts, you see pvp as an option added onto EQ. For me EQ is pvp; it wouldn't be fun without it. Evercamp, grinding, slaying dragons, gods, etc. are only worth it if you can do more with your items than put them on a magelo profile. Hence why I overemphasized.


How does my saying that the purpose of the server isn't to provide a PvP arena indicate that I want an arena? Do you actually read or just randomly quote stuff? There needs to be space for the actual Everquest game, otherwise the PvP becomes kinda meaningless. Itemloot hinders gameplay.

Well what you said right here

It's not to provide a griefing-centric PvP arena with as contentious and unruly community, which is what itemloot promotes. The more it hurts to die and the more you gain from cheating, griefing and being a complete douchebag, the worse the community will be. That's strike two against itemloot: it conflicts with what the server tries to provide.

and here

If you're one of the apparent minority who cannot enjoy PvP that doesn't include the possibility of taking other players' items, you may just have to accept that a PvP server that caters to the majority and aims to provide actual Everquest with a PvP theme, instead of Grieftown 2011, might simply not seek to satisfy to you.

make it seem that you're 1. a bluebie, 2. played item loot and lost, or 3. generally HATE on people that like / want item loot. Why the animosity??

Item loot does not hinder gameplay if implemented effectively. That part of EQ doesn't have to be classic, as classic item loot failed. There are other ways it could be done.

+/- 8 range coin, +/-4 range item (that way you might not even know if they can loot an item or not) is a possibility.

Also, what if you received a random item off the corpse? It could work.

[Xareth]

I started out on a blue server back in the day, and after a year or so I went to PvP. Played on TZ and later SZ, and I couldn't imagine playing on a bluebie server where there were no risks and nothing bad could happen. It seemed weak and pointless. I then slowly came to realize how utterly pitiful EQ's design is for PvP, it's so monstrously bad that I can't imagine why I ever spent a minute on it. There are merits to the harshness and consequences of EQ's PvP (because it's what makes the PvE rewarding as well), but the class balance and combat mechanics are just hopeless for the purpose of establishing a meaningful PvP environment. The game was never meant for PvP, and it was added as an afterthought and never worked properly. Not only is it so hugely imbalanced that meaningful competitiveness is impossible, but the fact that you can cause so much damage to others and waste so much of their time by griefing attracts the absolute rectal leakage of humanity because anyone who actually cares about the sport and challenge of quality PvP has moved on to more modern games that can provide it with the tools and knowledge that didn't exist when EQ was created. This aforementioned demographic of unsuccesful abortions is also known as the VZ/TZ community, and is the same community you'd find on red99. People play on Project 1999 to experience what Everquest was actually designed for: a challenging and punishing but therefore rewarding game where you depended on other people and had to cooperate as a community in order to thrive. If that appeals to you, you'll enjoy it here. If you want good PvP, play League of Legends or something. If you want to inflict disheartened feelings on other human beings in order to briefly forget out your own cripplingly low self esteem, try one of the hamfisted efforts at recreating EQ PvP, I think I heard someone was opening VZ/TZ again.

You hate pvp, is that why you hate item loot?

Ok, we got your vote.

[Nirgon]

Quality of fights, lol. Oh, you'll get some quality alright.

[Yukahwa]

Haha Nirgon.

[Billbike]

If item loot could be coded to be only solo pvp kills, it would cut down the rate of basketball. Atleast where the looter must do 75% during a kill?

[Kimm Barely]

YES - Coin & item loot

meh dunno - XP Loss

FUCK NO - XP Gain

[Prahadigm24]

Coin loot? YES!

Exp loss? MAYBE... if implemented, it should be smaller than regular exp loss from PvE. Devs could also limit PvP exp loss, e.g. you cannot lose more than 1/2 level on a single day.

Item loot? Regarding all equipped items: NO WAY! But you could add a few items to the coin loot, e.g. all gems, words, runes, random mob loot could be taken from a player as well. Picking one item from the victim's bags would work for me, too. But all regular equipment slots should remain untouched (two reasons: 1. population 2. don't make it attractive to gank single players in groups excessively).

Just my 2 copper pieces.

[Kraz]

Nilbog thats goblin spelled backwards! Anyway Nilbog your right, risk is what its all about. there is no reason what was mentioned earlier would not work. Alter-gate loot from bags and only bags. so if you only want to carry one bag that your prerogative. So what I am saying is empty inventory slots are NOT lootable. So people can use there ultra rare utility items there. and I can promise you guys this, EQ vets will not carry one bag its just too damn annoying and there is no way any real men would put themselves through that. With that in mind its a great way to invoke more pvp, and no one will take anyone's gear off the char while still having incentive other then the best pvp ever! I'm not sure who said it before but caster and melee can only wear there class specific items duhhh I know. But whoever said people just wont carry gear? lol how do you think people get gear...sitting on the toilet? No in dungeons and raids and at camps. your going to get sweet gears/spells that are not useable by classes somewhat often if you pvp a lot. If you want to play like a little loot whore and every time you loot some PoS item you gate/run back to the bank good for you. I can tell you I sure as hell will not lol. its a perfect compromise for loot, blues, hard core, Fun, and population. I think this will actually help population because loot will go to someone who needs it more often, and also really keep pvp healthy.
Another thought, maybe even just the 2 bottom Inventory slots are safe.... that makes more sense so people will have to choose... and choose wisely for Kraz will seek them out and HT them for their gear

[Lazortag]

I'm sure whatever ruleset nilbog chooses will work out fine, but if there's exp loss on pvp deaths, the population will definitely suffer.

[gloinz]

I'm sure whatever ruleset nilbog chooses will work out fine, but if there's exp loss on pvp deaths, the population will definitely suffer.

lol another the population will suffer clause cant tell if troll

[Kraz]

also there is nothing wrong with exp gain on pvp kill with max kill 3 over 24 hours... its just a fun thing. Just make sure there is yellow so that we can laugh at the fags that farm one another like prostitutes, oh and an ooc so we can laugh together.

[greatdane]

It would be pointless to code it in for that little benefit. Maybe something like XP from every PvP kill, but only once from each target every 24 hours. That'd reward active PvPing without making it very tempting to farm alts or some bullshit - who's gonna go through that trouble and potentially get caught cheating just for a handful of kills they could have just got off of mobs? 10 legit kills an hour isn't too far-fetched, though, and that'd at least get vaguely close to what you'd get from soloing XP slowly.

I don't think the devs will put XP gains in at all, but it'd be possible to make it both rewarding and not really worth abusing.

[Lazortag]

lol another the population will suffer clause cant tell if troll

I said it would suffer, not that it would die completely or that the server wouldn't be a success. I don't see what's so extreme about this position, it will frustrate the shit out of players to lose exp on pvp deaths and allows massive griefing.

also there is nothing wrong with exp gain on pvp kill with max kill 3 over 24 hours... its just a fun thing. Just make sure there is yellow so that we can laugh at the fags that farm one another like prostitutes, oh and an ooc so we can laugh together.

Rogean already said there wouldn't be global ooc or yellow text, when will you guys shut up about it?

[greatdane]

We had XP deaths on Sullon Zek and it wasn't so terrible, even despite the fact that SZ was the griefing capital. Once in a while you heard about someone who fell asleep at their bind spot and got deleveled to 30 or something, but that was so rare those people became mini-legends and anyway I think GMs sometimes restored their XP (not that the GMs here would necessarily do the same). SZ didn't open until like late Velious though, I didn't move there until Luclin came out and it was much easier to level then, plus the server had significantly reduced the XP loss from (any) death and you only lost like a blue or something. The point is that XP loss isn't as terrible as it sounds if it's coded so that you don't lose the 10% of a level or whatever you lose from a PvE death, and it has a few benefits such as discouraging bind-rushing or routinely training people naked, and making it less appealing for griefers to try and get you XP-killed by mobs. I'm not necessarily saying there should be XP loss on red99, but I'd say itemloot is far more bitter than XP loss and it doesn't have to be as bad as it sounds.

[Wonton]

i am so afraid of gloinz.. i mean.. look at that sig, it's SO OLD SCHOOL. he must be a basement dweller. i don't want some cheesy smelling dwarf chasing me and ransacking my nuts. red99 pls hurry

[Kraz]

goochie goochie Louie Louie wtf ? discuss

NO YELLOW !?!@#>!>@#>!@># god mother fuck. im going to fucking kill myself thats how i know myself mother fuckers and all the fuckers with em.

[Palemoon]

Having played on Rallos from beta4 till Luclin, and then moving onto Sullon Zek, I think coin loot is enough.

Players would just collect a set of inferior no drop items to wear and spend their time bagging their dropable items instead of fighting back when jumped. Lootable gear heavily favors casters anyways, and they don't need any favors.

Zone and spawn control is the real prize in classic EQ pvp anyways, not looting noobs patchwork leather.

[Xareth]

Zone and spawn control is the real prize in classic EQ pvp anyways, not looting noobs patchwork leather.

Good point. What if item loot didn't start until lvl 20 / 30 / something? Coin loot at whatever level pvp would start until then.

If full blown item loot will drop the population there are a lot of alternatives. Like I said in another post, item loot could be random, or could use a point system or both.

Or (whatever form of) item loot only in high end zones, pretty much the same zones that would have no lvl range for pvp.

Lots and lots of options.

[SaveTheSack]

Coin loot: Yes, manageable but sucks enough to be a good penalty.
Item: No, too crazy.
Exp Loss: Definitely not.
Exp Gain: Exploitable

[Tajin]

KEEP ITEM LOOT

[Tajin]

No item loot will lessen the population dramatically

[Haul]

At least coin loot, or that'll be super weak.