Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[Smedy]

You never played Rallos then. Youre thinking this with a blue frame of mind. This isnt about poopsocking disputes. I played a year and a half on Rallos and quit when i was 44, never actually made it to raiding. It went so slow on Rallos because everybody was having fun pvping at the low levels.

This is not fun to me ---> "Oh, just hang in there, grind like blue for 6 months and then you can have fun pvping"

Hey bra, don't know what to tell ya, it does get hardcore, but then again the more you invest the more fun it becomes, i do agree it's slow in the beginning but i honestly can't complain, this is by far the best pvp box you'll ever see on eqemu to emulate the classic experience.

Just try harder dog, get some pals, do big things, don't get owned in pvp.

To claim that the 2% exp loss on pvp is keeping you from leveling you need to play better, you must be dying alot.

[Softcore PK]

All you've done since you got here is complain, Oldfish. It's a drag and you're harshing my buzz. Can't you try to enjoy it? :/

[Bazooka]

Somebody would get tired of dying sooner or later.


Sick of dying with no penalty?

I think you are GREATLY underestimating the trolling/griefing that players here are capable of pal.

[oldfish]

Hey bra, don't know what to tell ya, it does get hardcore, but then again the more you invest the more fun it becomes, i do agree it's slow in the beginning but i honestly can't complain, this is by far the best pvp box you'll ever see on eqemu to emulate the classic experience.

Just try harder dog, get some pals, do big things, don't get owned in pvp.

To claim that the 2% exp loss on pvp is keeping you from leveling you need to play better, you must be dying alot.

its just that i dont see people pvping much, the only time it happens to me is say, last night when i was running to my group in Befallen and got jumped by 6 people.

Or that time when people in Innothule got tired of Holocaust zerging guk and we ran in there with 12 people and had an epic 2 hour pvp fight for Guk. Oh wait they all camped and we got trained by a red cleric.

[Smedy]

Yeah many don't do solo pvp on the lower levels cause classes really don't come into their true form until 20+

My guess is that you want to get to an area where there are many int casters, they usually like to solo pvp on the earlier lvls due to the huge advantages they have.

You have to remember that many are stressed doing the thex dagger and other things before its to late, not many has had real time to enjoy the game yet, everyone is racing to get some levels first. Just stick around i know the grind can get really retarded though but then again fast experience has been tested and it doesn't really fix anything, if else it just encourages cheaters to cheat more as the penalty for cheating and getting your character removed really isn't a big deal if you can just re level within a few days.

[oldfish]

To me the xp rate is fine, as long as i get to mix it with pvp sessions. Im just gonna go out tonite, have some fun and try to kill some peeps all nite long. If i end up being 10 at the end of my pvp session, so be it.

[Bazooka]

To me the xp rate is fine, as long as i get to mix it with pvp sessions. Im just gonna go out tonite, have some fun and try to kill some peeps all nite long. If i end up being 10 at the end of my pvp session, so be it.

Oldfish now starting to sound like a solid community member.

[boozehammer]

Leave it how it is. It's fine.

[xblade724]

What if you get xp for a pvp kill if you did 50%+ dmg?

[nilbog]

bump.

This is where item loot discussion should be happening.


from another thread:
I am also CONFOUNDED why the one thing from Rallos Zek that was possibly revolutionary - item loot - was also not considered.

[mostly opinions about item loot]

It was considered. I like item loot and I have posted many times about it. My vote on this topic was some type of modified item loot to see if it worked. If it didn't, it could be removed. It seems to be an entire element to the game missing for me, but that's just an opinion. The first question usually asked of me of a new person is, does the pvp server have item loot? No? Well that's boring what's the point other than zone control/im gonna play pve. I have no answer for them.

Argument #1: Item loot would decrease population. Since it hasn't been tried on r99, even in beta, I have no faith in this argument. Trying it a couple of times, within the past 10 years on different eqemulator servers doesn't count for me as empirical data.

It also makes people think twice about taking a geared-out twink to attack noobs with. A gang of noobs might take an expensive item.

The most prevalent argument against it is.. casters can fight naked. While that is true, so can melee if they have their weapons. So something like.. not allowing the looting of primary/secondary/range OR no drop items would go far in this department.

Counterargument is.. melee can't fight casters without resist gear. Well, resist gear, from what I've seen, isn't obtained early on. So, that's irrelevant to the argument.

Next argument is.. people will bag their gear before they die. One idea I thought was interesting was any droppable item that wasn't equipped, could be available for loot. This means players wouldn't choose to bag their items, because those are the items players could loot. I've also seen suggestions like, any non-magical bagged item, such as gems or random armor.

The other biggest argument I've seen was, "I don't want to camp an fbss for 10 hours to lose it in a fight". Aside from the custom item loot rulesets which may protect against this, no one is making anyone camp an fbss for 10 hours.

I'd like to think there is some type of item loot ruleset which people could agree with. More features = win.

[/mostly opinions about item loot]

[Softcore PK]

Let's remove no drop tags like FV, and then try it out imo. Otherwise it gives the raiding guilds even more of an advantage over the casuals, which they don't need at all.

[gloinz]

bump.

This is where item loot discussion should be happening.


from another thread:


[mostly opinions about item loot]

It was considered. I like item loot and I have posted many times about it. My vote on this topic was some type of modified item loot to see if it worked. If it didn't, it could be removed. It seems to be an entire element to the game missing for me, but that's just an opinion. The first question usually asked of me of a new person is, does the pvp server have item loot? No? Well that's boring what's the point other than zone control/im gonna play pve. I have no answer for them.

Argument #1: Item loot would decrease population. Since it hasn't been tried on r99, even in beta, I have no faith in this argument. Trying it a couple of times, within the past 10 years on different eqemulator servers doesn't count for me as empirical data.

It also makes people think twice about taking a geared-out twink to attack noobs with. A gang of noobs might take an expensive item.

The most prevalent argument against it is.. casters can fight naked. While that is true, so can melee if they have their weapons. So something like.. not allowing the looting of primary/secondary/range OR no drop items would go far in this department.

Counterargument is.. melee can't fight casters without resist gear. Well, resist gear, from what I've seen, isn't obtained early on. So, that's irrelevant to the argument.

Next argument is.. people will bag their gear before they die. One idea I thought was interesting was any droppable item that wasn't equipped, could be available for loot. This means players wouldn't choose to bag their items, because those are the items players could loot. I've also seen suggestions like, any non-magical bagged item, such as gems or random armor.

The other biggest argument I've seen was, "I don't want to camp an fbss for 10 hours to lose it in a fight". Aside from the custom item loot rulesets which may protect against this, no one is making anyone camp an fbss for 10 hours.

I'd like to think there is some type of item loot ruleset which people could agree with. More features = win.

[/mostly opinions about item loot]

can't go wrong with the item loot from bag thing you were suggesting

[Dfn]

Nillbog for president.

I like the FV style removal of the no-drop tag! Looting from bags is good too!

[omnigol]

bump.

This is where item loot discussion should be happening.


from another thread:


[mostly opinions about item loot]

It was considered. I like item loot and I have posted many times about it. My vote on this topic was some type of modified item loot to see if it worked. If it didn't, it could be removed. It seems to be an entire element to the game missing for me, but that's just an opinion. The first question usually asked of me of a new person is, does the pvp server have item loot? No? Well that's boring what's the point other than zone control/im gonna play pve. I have no answer for them.

Argument #1: Item loot would decrease population. Since it hasn't been tried on r99, even in beta, I have no faith in this argument. Trying it a couple of times, within the past 10 years on different eqemulator servers doesn't count for me as empirical data.

It also makes people think twice about taking a geared-out twink to attack noobs with. A gang of noobs might take an expensive item.

The most prevalent argument against it is.. casters can fight naked. While that is true, so can melee if they have their weapons. So something like.. not allowing the looting of primary/secondary/range OR no drop items would go far in this department.

Counterargument is.. melee can't fight casters without resist gear. Well, resist gear, from what I've seen, isn't obtained early on. So, that's irrelevant to the argument.

Next argument is.. people will bag their gear before they die. One idea I thought was interesting was any droppable item that wasn't equipped, could be available for loot. This means players wouldn't choose to bag their items, because those are the items players could loot. I've also seen suggestions like, any non-magical bagged item, such as gems or random armor.

The other biggest argument I've seen was, "I don't want to camp an fbss for 10 hours to lose it in a fight". Aside from the custom item loot rulesets which may protect against this, no one is making anyone camp an fbss for 10 hours.

I'd like to think there is some type of item loot ruleset which people could agree with. More features = win.

[/mostly opinions about item loot]

sounds good to me

[kprobe]

The most prevalent argument against it is.. casters can fight naked. While that is true, so can melee if they have their weapons. So something like.. not allowing the looting of primary/secondary/range OR no drop items would go far in this department.

One thing to mention, bards need their instruments, if you implemented a safe-rule for primary/2ndary you'd have to take into account a bard may have switched their weapons out and other typically raid/rare instruments can be outside/bagged at time of death.

If no safe-rule is implemented to counter this, bard's rare instruments will never be used.

Of course basic instruments are cheap, and they could use them only, but that would be a side-effect nerf and still doesn't solve bard melee weapons switched out at time of death.

[Rust1d?]

Item loot will kill the server. Why is this even up for discussion? Haven't you learned from previous boxes? Maybe start with yellow text and global ooc.

[HippoNipple]

I don't see anything wrong with not being able to loot whatever is inside bags. Yeah people will bag things if the fight is taking too long but so what. If someone is able to bag every piece of gear before they are killed the kill took too long.

Item loot doesn't have to be complicated - 1 item, no primary, secondary or range slot loot, no backpack items looted. Done. As for instruments I have no experience with this but would it be bad to have them to be turned into no drop items?

[HippoNipple]

Item loot will kill the server. Why is this even up for discussion? Haven't you learned from previous boxes? Maybe start with yellow text and global ooc.

This is a emulator pvp server on a 12 year old game. The people that play here enjoy everquest pvp and can't get it anywhere else. The people I know that have come to this server were very upset when they heard there was no item loot, but they remain for the time being. They have been playing less and less and have most likely been burnt out already after seeing what the pvp scene is on this server as of now. Basically the pvp is pointless and just leads to more tough grinding that most people don't have time for. The only people who get a big kick out of PvP right now are the people that enjoy taking screen shots and posting them on forums which amounts to about 10 - 15 people.

My pvp experience so far is been really weak as well. I have probably killed around 15 people, but no one has even attacked me yet. I am not saying no one has killed me, I'm saying no one has even attacked me. There really isn't any point right now, you just risk losing exp and there are no teams so it just seems like a dick move really. Every time I kill someone I just shrug and go hmmm that was pointless, and then move on.

[Rust1d?]

once upon a time there was a pvp server that had good rewards and Devs who had daily updates and listened to players....everyone left that server. So it goes to show that no matter what you do, you cannot please everyone.

I for one will leave if they put in item loot.

[Darwoth]

only way item loot will work is with the removal of no drop tags, and to avoid the server pop cutting itself in half over it equipped shit should probably not be lootable.

[mourning]

Why are we still discussing this, its already what its going to be and it works fine.

Please stop inundating the devs with a bunch of bullshit.

Nilbog has a good idea along the lines of non magical item in bags dropping -- A gem or armor or a fine steel or whatever.

[Slave]

Nilbog has a good idea along the lines of non magical item in bags dropping -- A gem or armor or a fine steel or whatever.

It should probably be the opposite of this... only magical items should have a chance to drop. Else, everyone will roll around with 1 loaf of bread on each slot. Not your best idea. Or maybe it was.

[mourning]

It should probably be the opposite of this... only magical items should have a chance to drop. Else, everyone will roll around with 1 loaf of bread on each slot. Not your best idea. Or maybe it was.

ITEM LOOT IS STUPID.


U ARE A CRETIN.

[skitter]

i like the idea of bag loot/...i think it would work well , most people would bank anything worth while , plus it would be worth while for others looking for random things .. like a hq bear skin! yay ..

[HippoNipple]

ITEM LOOT IS STUPID.


U ARE A CRETIN.

pussy

[veto]

Cant wait to loot people's manastones when they implement item loot and take out manastones! whewt

[xblade724]

Item loot will kill the server. Why is this even up for discussion? Haven't you learned from previous boxes? Maybe start with yellow text and global ooc.

lawl how would item loot kill the server? Considering we are not 13 years old anymore and most non-neckbeards here have full-time jobs and lives, it's terrible losing an hour of gameplay when you have an exp death when we have more limited time than we did in the classic days.

That said, why would item loot drive people away, especially if we can wear no drop armor, cant loot weapons, cant loot bags, cant loot items in bags, and can always bag your few droppable goodies?

Current system drives people away by losing real gameplay hours leveling when it's already slow as hell to level. It's demoralizing. You can always get coin back at a fast pace if you have any brain, just not exp

[bamzal]

Coin loot - Yes
Item loot - Yes
Exp gain - Yes
Exp loss - No

Wut?

[Mexer]

Coin loot - Yes
Item loot - Yes
Exp gain - No
Exp loss - Yes



fixed

[Labanen]

Changing the ruleset gotta be to bring in more people, and I dont think ill play with itemloot... But if it brings in a crowd to revive the server for lower levels, then go ahead and try it out.

Personally i think everyone who wants to play red is there already. Making it "more red" by inventing further reason to gank each other i think we ll loose more than we ll gain, certainly wont bring in more blue peeps, at least i dont see why it would.

[Mexer]

item loot = classic.

[Labanen]

item loot = classic.true, but thats pretty much been confirmed not to win all debates anyway.

Gotta bring in some arguments in favor or against the idea for something that big.

[Mexer]

Is this called the: debate Server, or is this called classic. There is no need to bring up some argument's. I just prefer it that way.

I grew up with an MMO called Meridian59 - full body loot. (1996)

Man, u would need an army to take care of the Crybabes these days. Sorry, some people just like the Challenge, nothing else.

[Labanen]

Is this called the: debate Server, or is this called classic.
plenty of non classic stuff in, some because it would require too much work to change and other things because it ruined the server to leave it how it was.

Goal gotta be to maintain to have as many players on the server as you can while making it as classic as possible. No fun if peak hour population drops much lower than what it is, eq - and red in particular - sucks as a singleplayer game.

My point is not that its classic the way it is, but that its the best way it is. And i see absolutely no reason why more people would start playing if it was changed to item loot. Couple of ganks which costs something that took days or weeks to aquire will push people off the server, not bring in the masses. Just my personal opinion of course... cant prove it til we try, but trying it might well kill the server.

[Mexer]

plenty of non classic stuff in.

Right. And in fact that everyone has to deal with the same non-classic Features, i dont rly care. As i said. I would prefer to play a hardcore game. If that means i end up with 100 Peeps playing. Hey. Ok for me.

dont care if the Server Pop is 500 or 100 as long i can enjoy the hardcore Modus with still barely enough peeps around to battle with.

We have a complete diff. view on the Game and Server. What u think is healthy for the Server is scoring a mainstream goal. I had enuff of that the last 10 Years...

[Slave]

Plain and simple:

More people who consider themselves PvPers would support Item Loot than wouldn't.

ULTIMA ONLINE
SHADOWBANE
DARKFALL

If you have not experienced them, I can see why you wouldn't be as excited for item loot. To you, item loot would be the bogeyman, taunting you with the assurance of experience and evilness.

I assure you folks, it is manageable, it makes every PvP interaction super exciting, and it beats the everloving shit out of money loot. Item Loot + Teams would revive this server BIGTIME.

[nilbog]

[item loot] makes every PvP interaction super exciting, and it beats the everloving shit out of money loot. Item Loot + Teams would revive this server BIGTIME.

I believe some type of item loot system is possible. Discussions should continue.

One suggestion I haven't heard was droppable items by type. That circumvents the weapon/armor problem and points specifically cash loot. For those who do eqemu stuff, something like items.itemtype 14,15,17,21,38 and != nodrop. So that's droppable food, drink, gems, potions, pages, runes, etc. Just something extra?

I also wondered how many players would choose 1 droppable non-worn item loot if it enabled yellow text kills and leaderboard for them. :D

[Jirr]

I believe some type of item loot system is possible. Discussions should continue.

One suggestion I haven't heard was droppable items by type. That circumvents the weapon/armor problem and points specifically cash loot. For those who do eqemu stuff, something like items.itemtype 14,15,17,21,38 and != nodrop. So that's droppable food, drink, gems, potions, pages, runes, etc. Just something extra?

I also wondered how many players would choose 1 droppable non-worn item loot if it enabled yellow text kills and leaderboard for them. :D

Could you flag pumice, golem wands, gate potions, and such to be looted along with coin automatically?

[Zallar]

Normally I don't support item loot but I do support item loot when you limit it to consumables like that.

[Dfn]

I believe some type of item loot system is possible. Discussions should continue.

One suggestion I haven't heard was droppable items by type. That circumvents the weapon/armor problem and points specifically cash loot. For those who do eqemu stuff, something like items.itemtype 14,15,17,21,38 and != nodrop. So that's droppable food, drink, gems, potions, pages, runes, etc. Just something extra?

I also wondered how many players would choose 1 droppable non-worn item loot if it enabled yellow text kills and leaderboard for them. :D

What about all non-worn items? This would make alternate gear sets, tradeable clickies, gems, etc lootable. I think it would add a much needed dynamic while still retaining players who would normally not play item loot or quit after getting their split paw tunic looted.

Also, leaderboard is good but it can potentially drive casual players away. On VZ/TZ the top of the leaderboard was always people who invested a lot of timr into farming the new players just barely in range. I think some formula would need to be implemented where players have a "value" based on kill:death ratio, level, total points, and even guild.

Edit, more on leaderboard. A flat point system simply doesn't work - it encourages farming of people that you can dispose of quickly and leads to abuse. Why fight people my level when I can kill the group at ass/sup, log out for 20, and repeat. I think a zero-system where the winner takes points from thr loser based on the above variables is all around best.

[Dfn]

Leaderboard example...

My math sucks but something like:

The winner gets 10% of victims total +/- 1% based on level differential +level/2.

Bob 200 points. level 45.
Jim 1000 points. Level 50.

If bob kills jim, bob would gain (.15*1000)+(50/2)= 175 points and the new point totals would be bob 375 and jim 825.

If instead? Jim killed bob, jim would gain (.05*200)+(45/2)= 33 points and the totals would be bob 167 and jim 1033.


The formula could be tweaked but i think its a start in creating a leaderboard that encourages pvp, rewards victory, punishes death, prevents exploitation, and recognizes level differential.

[Softcore PK]

No leaderboard please, we don't need to give the fratboys more pointless numbers to mindlessly obsess over. It's still football season, right?

I also don't like gear being looted from bags. If alt gear, clicky gear and such are going to be lootable, it will just result in everyone only using the gear they have on. It would limit our characters.. clerics choosing either to use stat gear or Donal's items, never both.

imo either make it RZ loot rules with no no drop items, or make it only cash things like gems, pumice, potions and wands that can be looted.

[Dfn]

No leaderboard please, we don't need to give the fratboys more pointless numbers to mindlessly obsess over. It's still football season, right?

I also don't like gear being looted from bags. If alt gear, clicky gear and such are going to be lootable, it will just result in everyone only using the gear they have on. It would limit our characters.. clerics choosing either to use stat gear or Donal's items, never both.

imo either make it RZ loot rules with no no drop items, or make it only cash things like gems, pumice, potions and wands that can be looted.

So you would rather risk having your worn items looted than your bagged ones? In one case bagged gear is safe and in the other worn gear is safe. And you are trying to argue that looting bagged items is too rough?

Think before you type.

[Kastro]

I believe some type of item loot system is possible. Discussions should continue.

One suggestion I haven't heard was droppable items by type. That circumvents the weapon/armor problem and points specifically cash loot. For those who do eqemu stuff, something like items.itemtype 14,15,17,21,38 and != nodrop. So that's droppable food, drink, gems, potions, pages, runes, etc. Just something extra?

I also wondered how many players would choose 1 droppable non-worn item loot if it enabled yellow text kills and leaderboard for them. :D

Maybe make planar dropable, and enable looting of bagged droppable stuff from inventory, not random drop, but pick and choose 1 item, if its gems, 1 off the stack... Players using a manastone ect would be fine using inventory as long as they didn't bag it. So if something is very important to you, keep it in the bank, use from inventory or wear it, just don't bag it as the item would be lootable.

Making planar and later velious quest armor components droppable would greatly increase the server economy as well as greatly decrease the time and effort required by casual players to start competing with more established players pvp/pve wise. With 1 bagged item lootable there would be a huge incentive for poorly geared or casual players to gank players in uberguilds as there is a good chance of getting to loot a piece of armor, spell, or gem they can use and the player killed is not using. This would also greatly increase the importance of cities and city faction as there will be a huge incentive to bank early and often...

[Kastro]

Also suggest first implementing this in planar zones only.

[Softcore PK]

So you would rather risk having your worn items looted than your bagged ones? In one case bagged gear is safe and in the other worn gear is safe. And you are trying to argue that looting bagged items is too rough?

Think before you type.

I'm really not sure what you're trying t say :/

Under my suggestions, the players are put on something of an even playing field. Either you're always risking gear (removal of no drop tag, RZ loot rules) or you're just always risking whatever minor cash items you have on you.

If you allow people to loot gear that isn't worn, I feel you're giving an advantage to casters over melee characters. Making melee characters choose between utility or normal stat gear, while casters always have tons of utility and can still wear their stat gear. It would also mean using fun items less, like illusion masks for rogues and bards.

Really though, the RZ ruleset loot would not work here, it would just kill the population more. The only real way to include item loot, as I see it, is to make it so items like gems and potions are lootable.

[Haul]

I believe some type of item loot system is possible. Discussions should continue.

One suggestion I haven't heard was droppable items by type. That circumvents the weapon/armor problem and points specifically cash loot. For those who do eqemu stuff, something like items.itemtype 14,15,17,21,38 and != nodrop. So that's droppable food, drink, gems, potions, pages, runes, etc. Just something extra?

I also wondered how many players would choose 1 droppable non-worn item loot if it enabled yellow text kills and leaderboard for them. :D

I played RZ so I'm used to item loot, but vztz got me used to coin loot as well. Hope if ya'll decide to do item loot it would be the way it was on RZ cause its proven to work and be solid. Otherwise I'd just leave things the way they are.

[mitic]

Argument #1: Item loot would decrease population. Since it hasn't been tried on r99, even in beta, I have no faith in this argument. Trying it a couple of times, within the past 10 years on different eqemulator servers doesn't count for

it does count dawg

i think it's proof enuf that vztz (server been out for 2years) pop doubled the moment item loot was taken out