Raiding on P1999

[anthony210]

I know its been discussed before but I thought maybe we can have a rational discussion on a solution to the raid drama we have on P99.

I personally support a rotation being set up, I know not all live servers had it but the one I was on did and it worked well. Not to mention that even live progression servers both have rotations set up, if they can do it on a live server with double our population and more raid capable guilds than I don't see why we cant find a reasonable way to set one up here.

Having said that, I don't deny that their might be other solutions. Post you're idea and/or thoughts on the subject here.

[Motec]

raiding is fine.

breaking rules is not. put in the hours, get the spoils.

[anthony210]

Raiding is only fine if you are in one of the two guilds here that get kills normally. If you are in one of the other guilds that cant be on 24/7 then you are limited to 1 or 2 kills every few months if you are lucky.

[deneauth]

I like the idea of a rotation setup just so everyone doesn't have to invest as much time with raid targets. I don't raid much these days but I am an avid forum reader, and I remember reading some people post a while back they didn't enjoy tracking raid mobs as much as they do, it's just a necessity. Why not set up a rotation and remove an inconvenient step to raiding?

[Hasbinbad]

Rotation is fine on p99 until it's Divinity's turn to get in on it.

More at eleven.

[Lazortag]

Jinsho, it was probably a bad idea to post this; case in point, Hasbinbad has already started replying.

Also since this has been beaten to death (and for the record I support some kind of weighted rotation), I'll just derail this a little and comment on something that could help make the raid scene more bearable: consistent patch day repops. If a content related patch occurs and the server has to be brought down, I think that all raid mobs should spawn at once and all timers should be reset. This seems to happen for about 1/2 of all such patches, but I think it should be for all of them, just to be consistent with classic. I'm also against having the slight variance on mobs once the server comes back up but if you at least make patch day repops consistent then no guild is going to waste their time waiting for a mob to spawn that never does.

Not to complain - the hole just opened and the devs are doing an excellent job, I'm just suggesting something.

[Shaken]

Rotation is fine on p99 until it's Divinity's turn to get in on it.

More at eleven.

Fyi, Divinity is by far the best guild on p99. A guild that doesn't cheat, no drama, and solid players.. Unlike tmo/TR which are a bunch of whining kids, and cry over loot LOL, it's a game children, maybe if you got paid to play it'd be a different story, but you don't... So suck it up and accept divinity owns you all..

Cry more over loot noobs

[Foxx]

solution: red box

til then, it will be whatever band of basement kids stare at the wall longer

[anthony210]

First, my opinion does not represent all of Divinity nor is this thread about Divinity.

Second, it says something about our community if 2 live progression servers can come to a raid agreement between their raiding guilds. But this server, one that is half the size in population and has fewer guilds cannot come to an agreement.

Also, I was not saying that a rotation is the only solution. If someone has a better idea that promotes fairness please let it be heard.

[Nivar Quartz]

Rotation is fine on p99 until it's Divinity's turn to get in on it.

More at eleven.

Your trolling Giegue skill has went down, he would have replied anyways without the Divinity shot.

[yaaaflow]

Haha wasn't a shot at divinity (I think), the joke is that there actually was a rotation on p99 for a short time and it ended the exact day divinity was to be given their first shot at CT.

[Ennoia]

I know its been discussed before but I thought maybe we can have a rational discussion on a solution to the raid drama we have on P99.

I personally support a rotation being set up, I know not all live servers had it but the one I was on did and it worked well. Not to mention that even live progression servers both have rotations set up, if they can do it on a live server with double our population and more raid capable guilds than I don't see why we cant find a reasonable way to set one up here.

Having said that, I don't deny that their might be other solutions. Post you're idea and/or thoughts on the subject here.

The high end guild leaders are too immature to try a rotation...they're greedy an want all the loot from a 12 year old game for themselves. I swear to God there's some behind the scenes RMT going on with them.

[Bruman]

Second, it says something about our community if 2 live progression servers can come to a raid agreement between their raiding guilds. But this server, one that is half the size in population and has fewer guilds cannot come to an agreement.

I can't help but assume that a lot of that comes from the fact that this server is free - therefore, a lot of unemployed people who don't give a shit.

I still don't know why variance isn't removed, and spawn rate increased. The fact is, there's many, many more people on P99 who are raid level and raid-capable than "back in the day", content comes out much slower here, combined with the "no cost to play" - it's just a much much different environment. The real solution is more frequent spawning.

[Xanthias]

Here's an idea... that gives the race feel etc....

Basically once a mob spawns guilds have a two hour window to engage, if after that time, mob is free game.

Example 1:
Trak spawns at 0:00 - Guild 1 is on the clock.
at 1:00 they kill Trak
Guild 2 is now on the clock for next spawn.

Example 2:
VS spawns at 0:00 - Guild 2 is on the clock
at 2:00 they haven't killed, Guild 1 can come in and claim it (under current ROE).
Guild 3 is on the clock.

[mitic]

just make rotation mandatory on blue. if you dont like it, go red and sort it out in a different way

win win for everyone!

[Bruman]

Here's an idea... that gives the race feel etc....

Basically once a mob spawns guilds have a two hour window to engage, if after that time, mob is free game.

Example 1:
Trak spawns at 0:00 - Guild 1 is on the clock.
at 1:00 they kill Trak
Guild 2 is now on the clock for next spawn.

Example 2:
VS spawns at 0:00 - Guild 2 is on the clock
at 2:00 they haven't killed, Guild 1 can come in and claim it (under current ROE).
Guild 3 is on the clock.

I don't see how that's any different than a rotation. Most mobs here don't last longer than like 30 minutes, if that. It might slow down on the poopsocking a little bit, but unlikely.

[Xanthias]

I don't see how that's any different than a rotation. Most mobs here don't last longer than like 30 minutes, if that. It might slow down on the poopsocking a little bit, but unlikely.

Exactly, I was more trying to get rid of the bitching and moaning about how they trained us, we had aggro and they stole it, blah blah.

[anthony210]

Well, a rotation fixes all the problems. The only downside is we lose the "competition" which is only really important to 1 maybe 2 guilds on the server.

[Bruman]

Well, a rotation fixes all the problems. The only downside is we lose the "competition" which is only really important to 1 maybe 2 guilds on the server.

I still lawl at the concept of "competition" on this server. The only true challenge is with yourself and your guild, on being able to kill the mob. Other guilds have no place in real competition. Hence why instancing was born - although you do lose so much other good stuff with instancing.

[Bruman]

Exactly, I was more trying to get rid of the bitching and moaning about how they trained us, we had aggro and they stole it, blah blah.

Ah gotcha - most rotations have some sort of clause as well, like, you get an hour or whatever to down your mob, or it's FFA.

[Orruar]

The only competition I've seen on this server is the competition to see which guild can collect as many losers as possible. All your skills consist of are getting 60 people online at 5am to kill a dragon, and convincing scores of people with no life to spend their days sitting in Trak lair.

[Bubbles]

The only competition I've seen on this server is the competition to see which guild can collect as many losers as possible. All your skills consist of are getting 60 people online at 5am to kill a dragon, and convincing scores of people with no life to spend their days sitting in Trak lair.

And we can pretty much /thread and lock it here.

[Titanuk]

i think we should set a rotation of pvping for mobs.

[Spud]

I think yaaaflow is right, Hasbinbad wasn't taking a shot at us, he was just referring to the one time in server history when a rotation actually existed. Although the comment was pretty confusing (I'm now the 6th reply discussing it?)

As for actually puting in a rotation, wasn't every raid guild interested in it at one point except for TR? I thought I heard TMO was interested in a rotation but I could be mistaken. Obviously TR/TMO have the most to loose if a rotation is put in place, however they will gain more FREE TIME to do stuff IRL, and still be able to take down a good amount of raid bosses. Assuming the rotation would be weighted so TMO/TR would get the majority of bosses. We could even arrange it so TR gets all the odd hour bosses since they have a big European membership. The server would be a peaceful PvE utopia.

So how about it? wouldn't you guys like to have some more free? less drama and BS?

[Bruman]

however they will gain more FREE TIME to do stuff IRL,

Lol, they do NOT care about that. Anything which results in less raid loot for them in unacceptable. There will never, ever, be a rotation on this server for targets the top guild or two are interested, period - unless it was GM mandated or something. Hell, variance was put in place in the first place to suit the top raid guild or two, neverminding how it hurt tier 2 guilds. Variance suits the poopsock guilds, not the others. That's why live servers were more likely to go to a rotation - because everyone knows the spawn times (or roughly when), and it was a needed compromise.

So yeah - server rules were changed to suit the tier 1 guilds. Not the other way around. Even broke their "WE ONLY DO CLASSIC" ruleset for them. Tier 2 guilds are not cared about in that regard.

[Nedala]

Just cause there was a rotation on your server doesnt mean its classic, on my server there was no rotation, at least not when i played and a lot of other server didn't have a rotation. I dont see the point in uncontested raiding, expecially since the most eq mobs aren't even hard if you dont have competition. I'd prefere EQ2 raiding over EQ1 raiding with rotations, the only reason i want to raid eq1 is every boss is contested. A rotation removes that. Server rules were not changed to suit the top guilds, they were changed (i assume you talking about the variance?) to avoid huge clusterfucks, which didnt happen on live for other reasons.

[Mcbard]

Oh wow, this thread again.

Don't want to invest time camped out? Think it wastes too much of your time? Want to kill dragons on project 1999?

Suggest rotations.

[Tarq]

expecially since the most eq mobs aren't even hard if you dont have competition

so it all boils down to " whoever poppsocks more is better than the others"

i actually dont give a damn atm bout the raiding scene, but you guys seem to enjoy blocking others from content more than u actually enjoy playing the game at all.
Not sure , but every mob has been killed 12y ago already, most people here play for nostalgie and fun, yet you guys think it shows how superior you are if u are able to have Trak or whatever on lock down.

If ur rly wanna have a contest about mobs u should consider the pvp server when he pops up, there u can have contested mobs and actually show skills to get shit done instead of just fucking others over because u have the time to poppsock and do so.


sincerly , former Rallos Zek Player

[Kaedain]

now that is /thread ^^

[Bruman]

Just cause there was a rotation on your server doesnt mean its classic, on my server there was no rotation, at least not when i played and a lot of other server didn't have a rotation. I dont see the point in uncontested raiding, expecially since the most eq mobs aren't even hard if you dont have competition. I'd prefere EQ2 raiding over EQ1 raiding with rotations, the only reason i want to raid eq1 is every boss is contested. A rotation removes that. Server rules were not changed to suit the top guilds, they were changed (i assume you talking about the variance?) to avoid huge clusterfucks, which didnt happen on live for other reasons.

FWIW - I wasn't playing the "ON MY SERVER!" card. I just don't see what there is to contest hehe.

And yar, I was talking about variance put in. It seems to me like the clusterfucks still happen, so not sure it's working. Maybe it's better than it was originally, but I only have tales to go on.

[Maze513]

Move this to RnF and lets start all over again =p

[Humerox]

The funniest thing about variance is that it was put in to help promote competition. No one back then thought people would be insane enough to sit around for days on end waiting for a boss spawn. It actually worked for a little while, but no need to rehash what happened afterward...we all saw the results, and what strategy won the day.

Re Hasbinabad, he's always had a measure of respect for Divinity. The comment was an inside joke, for those who've been around long enough to remember.

It looks like Nilbog and Rogean are mandating a change, by withholding content. So unless everyone gets together and starts talking about solutions...

Rotation is more classic than ten billion server rules and huge guild summits. It's also a rather easy solution...and the only problem would be hashing out who deserves a shot in the rotation queue.

[Ulivar]

Not that i'm considered to be a raider but i'm going to throw my 2 cents in since theres a billion threads about this crap

heres the point

"- Veeshan's Peak will remain closed. We do not feel the behavior of the top raiding guilds over the last several months merits new content for them."

The actions and attitudes of those who are raiding, are harming their own interests.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with the raid scene right? right? lol

I'm from RZ, even on RZ we came to a raiding arrangement between the top guilds so that people could get shit done and improve their characters/get equip yada yada. However when the tides turned, there was massive waring and pvp and no one got anything done.

Its really funny that it can't or that people won't do it here. Even now, your holding back your own progression because people refuse to get along. Like its really that bad? Yall are more interested in burning people out than prolonging interest and this is overall bad for the server. Argue as much as you want to, if it doesn't get to a resolution then its completely pointless. As a newish player here i've expressed multiple times that I would be interested in a raid scene, but the state of it here completely turns me off to that idea. But again, raid scene is fine here...right?

Any sort of a rotation would be worthwhile with any time restraint, that leaves it up to the guilds to make sure they can kill the mobs, thats what everyone wants to do right, kill mobs? Argue about how long people will have to kill it.

OR yall can just keep doing what your doing, and keep hurting yourselves and wasting your time

Thanks, today's lesson has been about sharing, what should tomorrows lesson be?

[Mcbard]

Good post except the issue the devs brought to light and that you posted is already being worked on.

The issue and resolution everyone else in the thread seems set on enacting is rotating mobs between not the "top guilds" but "anybody capable of killing a mob" so that the 500 level 60s on the server all get a chance at raid mobs because they don't want to log their characters out prepared and track. They wish to have their cake and eat it too.. which I don't recall being classic.

That comes off kind of dickish, but seriously this is what it seems to boil down to from everything I've been reading on this subject in the last couple of weeks. "Man we really want to kill dragons, but on this server you have to track them during their windows and have your force buffed, logged out, and prepared to do so in order to kill anything, and we don't want to do that since it's not what we did in classic!"

I don't get it. =\

Edit: And it should be known that I personally, as well as most everyone I'm sure is all for a solution that makes everything as classic as possible, however we need to keep a few things in mind, imo:
1. Variances were put in for a reason
2. The solution should affect all people equally
3. It should be easier for the GM's not more difficult
4. At the end of the day there are going to be 500 people standing around a pie and wanting a slice, but there just isn't enough to go around.

[Nizzarr]

We're enjoying the current raid environment as it is. Mob variance is good, everyone in both raiding guilds has to commit lots of time in tracking and mobilizing. Whoever said that you just need scores of poeple to raid on this server is ignorant. Theres a lot more to it than that and if you dont want to spend time in this game you dont deserve the spoils. We work hard in TMO to get those kills and TR works hard too.

Work harder and youll get raid mobs too. or you can try and whine about a rotation on forums, that sure is less time intensive.

As far as Veeshan's peak goes, I'm sure both guilds and the management will come to a decent agreement.

[Lazortag]

The issue and resolution everyone else in the thread seems set on enacting is rotating mobs between not the "top guilds" but "anybody capable of killing a mob" so that the 500 level 60s on the server all get a chance at raid mobs because they don't want to log their characters out prepared and track. They wish to have their cake and eat it too.. which I don't recall being classic.


Wait, so what about tracking mobs for 4 day windows is classic?


That comes off kind of dickish, but seriously this is what it seems to boil down to from everything I've been reading on this subject in the last couple of weeks. "Man we really want to kill dragons, but on this server you have to track them during their windows and have your force buffed, logged out, and prepared to do so in order to kill anything, and we don't want to do that since it's not what we did in classic!"

It's the fact that you have to track them for insane amounts of time (more than what was required in classic), and even if you do that, usually one of the top two guilds has either 30+ people logged on in the zone at the time, or 30+ people camped out next to the boss. Assuming they don't, you have a pretty good chance that the mob is going to spawn when your guild isn't even awake. In other words, the variance requires an unreasonable time investment. It's not that we're all not skilled or hardcore enough to compete on your level; it's that we just can't invest that much time into a game. If you love competition so much, you would either (a) want to lower the entry cost for aspiring guilds participating in the raid scene, or (b) stop doing things that are antithetical to competition (like poopsocking, or camping your guild near the boss, which is basically the same thing). And maybe if you're nice enough they'll open VP for you.



Work harder and youll get raid mobs too. or you can try and whine about a rotation on forums, that sure is less time intensive.

Wow. Do you really think it's due to "hard work" that you have relative success on this server?

[Quizy]

Wait, so what about tracking mobs for 4 day windows is classic?



It's the fact that you have to track them for insane amounts of time (more than what was required in classic), and even if you do that, usually one of the top two guilds has either 30+ people logged on in the zone at the time, or 30+ people camped out next to the boss. Assuming they don't, you have a pretty good chance that the mob is going to spawn when your guild isn't even awake. In other words, the variance requires an unreasonable time investment. It's not that we're all not skilled or hardcore enough to compete on your level; it's that we just can't invest that much time into a game. If you love competition so much, you would either (a) want to lower the entry cost for aspiring guilds participating in the raid scene, or (b) stop doing things that are antithetical to competition (like poopsocking, or camping your guild near the boss, which is basically the same thing). And maybe if you're nice enough they'll open VP for you.



Wow. Do you really think it's due to "hard work" that you have relative success on this server?

You want things handed to you while guilds like TMO and TR go out and GET what they want instead of waiting for it to be handed to them..

If you want the high end raiding loot for your guild then require higher attendance of your members or stop whining on forums about it..

The "oh this wasnt classic" argument is retarded because this server is not exactly classic anyway.. using that argument proves nothing and doesnt change the fact that you need dedicated players to get these targets.

[Lazortag]

You want things handed to you while guilds like TMO and TR go out and GET what they want instead of waiting for it to be handed to them..

If you want the high end raiding loot for your guild then require higher attendance of your members or stop whining on forums about it..

The "oh this wasnt classic" argument is retarded because this server is not exactly classic anyway.. using that argument proves nothing and doesnt change the fact that you need dedicated players to get these targets.

Woah, relax. Your post is full of assumptions. I never said I wanted things handed to me. In classic mobs weren't just handed to guilds - the guilds had to actually kill them, for one. Secondly, I just want things to be classic. The fact that there are other non-classic things on this server is irrelevant - it's still a pareto improvement for the server to have one more non-classic issue fixed even if it means that not everything else can be fixed. Thirdly, this has nothing to do with my guild (I'm a free agent and I'm allowed to speak for myself), nor does it have to do with requiring higher attendance. You've participated very little in the raid scene if you think that's all it boils down to. The crux of the problem is that the majority of raid-capable guilds on this server simply don't have the time to poopsock or track mobs through outrageously long windows, for reasons I already explained. And again, like I already said, it's not some indication that the top guilds are just too "uber" that they get very little competition - it's that the current ruleset actively discourages competition and limits entry into the raid scene to the people who have no lives outside of eq. So, calm down, and actually read what people say before responding to them.

[Tycko]

If you want to raid on p99, expect to spend ungodly amounts of time playing everquest. If you are a normal 9 to 5 citizen, look forward to patch days for full repops so you can take a few shots at raid mobs while the people with no lives fight for the high priority targets.

[Zenlina]

As it stands with variances, lets say all agreed on a rotation. I mean if a boss spawns at weird hours for guild besides the two everyone else seem to want to blame, how long would it take you guys to get ready for it? 1-2-3 hours to organise, have the right classes log on, etc?

Sorry but most seem to think the two top guilds have no life but its quite the opposite, we dont have time to wait around for hours on end for the other guilds to muster enough to kill it, we pretty much go in, kill it and go back to real life/work/sleep/alts/whatever.

[Quizy]

Woah, relax. Your post is full of assumptions. I never said I wanted things handed to me. In classic mobs weren't just handed to guilds - the guilds had to actually kill them, for one. Secondly, I just want things to be classic. The fact that there are other non-classic things on this server is irrelevant - it's still a pareto improvement for the server to have one more non-classic issue fixed even if it means that not everything else can be fixed. Thirdly, this has nothing to do with my guild (I'm a free agent and I'm allowed to speak for myself), nor does it have to do with requiring higher attendance. You've participated very little in the raid scene if you think that's all it boils down to. The crux of the problem is that the majority of raid-capable guilds on this server simply don't have the time to poopsock or track mobs through outrageously long windows, for reasons I already explained. And again, like I already said, it's not some indication that the top guilds are just too "uber" that they get very little competition - it's that the current ruleset actively discourages competition and limits entry into the raid scene to the people who have no lives outside of eq. So, calm down, and actually read what people say before responding to them.

Your post is full of assumptions if you think that TMO/TR members sit online ALL DAY everyday poopsocking spawns.... most of the time both guilds camp out buffed at the major target (trak, or vs w/e) and then when a tracker sees that the mob pops a tweet goes out and both guilds mobilize for the target..

To just say.. oh we cant sit online for days at a time poopsocking is just an excuse.. if you want these mobs you will do what it takes to get them... things arent going to change just to serve the middle of the road guilds that have 1-2 grps of people that will actually login or track for a mob right when it spawns or is in window.

It just so happens that the people that want to camp out and mobilize are in the top 2 guilds because they actually care about getting to the content first.... naturally they want to play with other people that are just as dedicated.

[Quizy]

If you want to raid on p99, expect to spend ungodly amounts of time playing everquest. If you are a normal 9 to 5 citizen, look forward to patch days for full repops so you can take a few shots at raid mobs while the people with no lives fight for the high priority targets.

This is BS and a cop out...sorry or the double post but there are alot of uninformed people here that just want to use the excuse that "tmo/da/ib/tr" members have no life etc etc....

Just because others are more focused and refined at everquest doesn't mean they have no life.. I work 50 hours a week at a gaming company, have a family, snowboard and various other sports and still had more than enough time to raid with DA...

Its all about proper time management and using tr tie you have effectively.. If your whining and saying you HAVE to have no life to raid p1999 then your a delusional noob who needs to step their damn game up..

[Humerox]

And thus the thread devolves.

The fact is, content is being withheld by the developers because people can't work out solutions. Stop defending what hasn't worked and start working on what will.

[Nivar Quartz]

We're enjoying the current raid environment as it is. Mob variance is good, everyone in both raiding guilds has to commit lots of time in tracking and mobilizing. Whoever said that you just need scores of poeple to raid on this server is ignorant. Theres a lot more to it than that and if you dont want to spend time in this game you dont deserve the spoils. We work hard in TMO to get those kills and TR works hard too.

Work harder and youll get raid mobs too. or you can try and whine about a rotation on forums, that sure is less time intensive.

As far as Veeshan's peak goes, I'm sure both guilds and the management will come to a decent agreement.

This pretty much sums it all up, nice job for once nizzar, once.

Oh except the part about TMO and TR and management working out a rotation for VP, or agreement, funny how you start compromising once Vp gets locked for the asshattery that's been going on.

Honestly who can't use twitter/batphones and camp out raidbuffed, ur no more committed than any of the other raid guilds, you'll just go to farther lengths ie training, rule lawyering, your drama is the reason you have one competitor.

These two top guild are going to negotiate with each other, the rest of you are just wasting time.

[Webwolf]

We're enjoying the current raid environment as it is. Mob variance is good, everyone in both raiding guilds has to commit lots of time in tracking and mobilizing. Whoever said that you just need scores of poeple to raid on this server is ignorant. Theres a lot more to it than that and if you dont want to spend time in this game you dont deserve the spoils. We work hard in TMO to get those kills and TR works hard too.

Work harder and youll get raid mobs too. or you can try and whine about a rotation on forums, that sure is less time intensive.

[Humerox]

These two top guild are going to negotiate with each other, the rest of you are just wasting time.

Except that other capable guilds aren't going to feel obligated to honor a rotation that excludes them. You know what that would lead to, lol. It has happened before. Yes?

[Zenlina]

Oh except the part about TMO and TR and management working out a rotation for VP, or agreement, funny how you start compromising once Vp gets locked for the asshattery that's been going on.

Honestly who can't use twitter/batphones and camp out raidbuffed, ur no more committed than any of the other raid guilds, you'll just go to farther lengths ie training, rule lawyering, your drama is the reason you have one competitor.

These two top guild are going to negotiate with each other, the rest of you are just wasting time.

O i want to bash on div so bad right now but its against my guild policy so will try keep it civil. Div has been on the server pretty much the longest, yet you guys are not at the top of the heap. Being around quite a while would mean you have more experience with the raid scene and better solutions to get the bosses yet havent. This to me would mean either your guild management is bad or the leadership is bad. Plus please stop speculating about tmo/tr since we never deal with you guys in over 5 months.

"ie training, rule lawyering, your drama is the reason you have one competitor" - You get this info 2nd/3rd hand from forums?? This is what i mean speculation, unless you deal with either guilds direct (On the raid scene) try to not throw it out there like that.

[Lazortag]

O i want to bash on div so bad right now but its against my guild policy so will try keep it civil. Div has been on the server pretty much the longest, yet you guys are not at the top of the heap. Being around quite a while would mean you have more experience with the raid scene and better solutions to get the bosses yet havent. This to me would mean either your guild management is bad or the leadership is bad. Plus please stop speculating about tmo/tr since we never deal with you guys in over 5 months.

"ie training, rule lawyering, your drama is the reason you have one competitor" - You get this info 2nd/3rd hand from forums?? This is what i mean speculation, unless you deal with either guilds direct (On the raid scene) try to not throw it out there like that.

One person from our guild said something you didn't like, and so you bash our whole guild? How would you feel if this standard were applied to you?

edit: I edited most of my post out because it wasn't very civil. Let's all try to be civil, please

[Quizy]

One person from our guild said something you didn't like, and so you bash our whole guild? How would you feel if this standard were applied to you?

edit: I edited most of my post out because it wasn't very civil. Let's all try to be civil, please

i agree people should be civil but the crap you guys base your assesment of TR/TMO is straight up forum troll asshatery.. its annoying to keep hearing.. oh TMO and TR people have no life thats y they get teh loots..

its just old and its obvious that people that want to play a certain way play that way and theres nothing wrong with that.. if your a casual raiding guild your not going to get HARDCORE raid targets.. sans a server wipe.

[Fists]

I wanted to state the trend in these threads. Players that bitch about poopsocking and spending countless hours online waiting on a mob, are players that are not in TMO or TR. Players in TMO and TR, do not bitch about poopsocking. Let me explain why to all you clueless kids who cannot seem to grasp the strategy that we use.

A. Get 60, get gear, get resist pieces, essentially play your toon until you have nothing else to do excluding farming plat, or getting raid gear.
B. Camp out at trakanon buffed, for his window. Note the word camp, you are not online staring at a spawn. Also note A. we don't have anything else to do, so therefor we enjoy outside things while we wait.
C. Yes, one person does track, but he does not sit there for 12 straight hours. Our tracking is generally done by a wide range of players in small 1-2 hour shifts.

- Guilds that would like raid mobs, do some research on spawn windows, get your 60's prepped and ready, and come compete. Quit bitching that in reality, TMO and TR gets EVERY raid mob with only needing to play for about 30 minutes a week.

Mythoxxus - TMO.

*** To the guy who said normal 9-5 people can't raid. I take 5 classes at UCLA and work a 20 hour a week job. I've also shown up for every mob this last week. It's not as bad as you guys make it out to be!

[anthony210]

O i want to bash on div so bad right now but its against my guild policy so will try keep it civil. Div has been on the server pretty much the longest, yet you guys are not at the top of the heap. Being around quite a while would mean you have more experience with the raid scene and better solutions to get the bosses yet havent. This to me would mean either your guild management is bad or the leadership is bad. Plus please stop speculating about tmo/tr since we never deal with you guys in over 5 months.

"ie training, rule lawyering, your drama is the reason you have one competitor" - You get this info 2nd/3rd hand from forums?? This is what i mean speculation, unless you deal with either guilds direct (On the raid scene) try to not throw it out there like that.

Guys, this thread is not about any particular guild. If a rotation is out of the question then so be it, there are other ways we can work together.

One of them being to remove variance and camping rules. Make it 100% FTE with no variance. This is how it was in classic.

Variance right now rewards the guild that can have a tracker up 24/7 for 4 days in a row. I never said the top guilds poopsocked, even though at some points in server history they did. What they do is have trackers on at all hours, not every guild can do that or wants to do that and is no where near how classic was.

And once again these are just idea's there is no need to go flaming each other, or talk shit about each others guilds. If you have an idea post it, if you want to comment fine but leave the flaming out. This is not rants and flames.

[tekniq]

Jinsho, I have a solution for you.

TR/TMO will not set up a rotation, i'm sorry - that's just not happening. as much as they are stubborn to share mobs your guild is just as stubborn by being a loner.

Why don't you guys merge with a tier 2 guild. i know of one guild that shares the same values as you guys do, but both sides are stubborn. Talk to your leaders and their leaders and just consider it, that is if you really want to get some targets.

GL

Honestly, if i was in TR/TMO, why would I want to share mobs with you guys and any other guild? TR/TMO puts in the work to get these mobs, a communistic society will not prevail in p99 why because it's not fair for someone who puts in 1/4 the time as you to get the same things as you do. Think about a merge really, if you can't beat them then create a force to challenge them. You don't necessarily have to zerg, but strategise around mobs and use your numbers to your advantage. you guys have around 10-20 people on most of the time, your guild is pretty small, but i'm sure it is just as capable and potent as any other guild. Combine forces with another guild..i'm serious.

[Nizzarr]

Veeshan's peak is unpracticable by multiple guild at the same time.

There's too few safe spots and it would be a nightmare for GMs and both guilds. I'm sure both guild's leadership will come to an agreement that only includes VP.

rotation for anything other than VP? not happening in the next 100 years.

so please stop using VP as your benchmark for rotation on this server.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

I'll thank all Divinity members ahead of time for making all future replies to this topic... topical.

This thread is for suggestions on improving the raid scene (if you feel changes are needed at all). This thread is not for slinging mud or labeling other guilds.

Anyone with a search button can find my views on this subject.

[Mcbard]

One of them being to remove variance and camping rules. Make it 100% FTE with no variance. This is how it was in classic.

I don't really like variance because it's not classic. However, as I said in my previous post the variance is most likely beyond our control, and was instituted for a reason.

If we were to remove it, and raid mobs were 100% FTE I think it would be even less fun for everybody, because as previously pointed out, there are about 4 or 5 guilds at most targets with auto attack on, sitting at a mobs spawn point spamming cycle nearest npc, 200 people would zerg the mob, and a petition would have to go in for every mob over who got FTE. Not exactly ideal/classic either unfortunately.

It's the playerbase that is most unclassic about this server.

[Mcbard]

Wait, so what about tracking mobs for 4 day windows is classic?

Nothing. Variance is obviously not a classic mechanic.

It's the fact that you have to track them for insane amounts of time (more than what was required in classic), and even if you do that, usually one of the top two guilds has either 30+ people logged on in the zone at the time, or 30+ people camped out next to the boss. Assuming they don't, you have a pretty good chance that the mob is going to spawn when your guild isn't even awake. In other words, the variance requires an unreasonable time investment. It's not that we're all not skilled or hardcore enough to compete on your level; it's that we just can't invest that much time into a game.

If you want to be taken serious, or at least tell people to stop making generalizations about your guild, you should probably stop doing the same. I'm sure much of TMO/TR spend less time logged into EQ then people who may be leveling up/camping items. Give them a /who sometime and see if there's more than 15 or so online unless a target is spawned..

[Juugox2]

in ECI we just had public raids alot in 99 good ol 100+ ppl in fear was awesome and fun :D

[Chippy]

Veeshan's peak is unpracticable by multiple guild at the same time.

There's too few safe spots and it would be a nightmare for GMs and both guilds. I'm sure both guild's leadership will come to an agreement that only includes VP.

rotation for anything other than VP? not happening in the next 100 years.

so please stop using VP as your benchmark for rotation on this server.

This.

[Humerox]

Get a few of the other guilds to form a tracking alliance, and have a couple hundred people logged out at Trak.

Have a special text service to bat-phone those that want to opt-in on killing Trak, and random the loot.

Ultimately, this would force a compromise.

Actually, Salty didn't have a bad idea...it was just that it was Salty...and he tried to put it together with a pug mentality. With a little coordination, the TMO/TR cycle can be broken.

[druziil]

We're enjoying the current raid environment as it is. Mob variance is good, everyone in both raiding guilds has to commit lots of time in tracking and mobilizing. Whoever said that you just need scores of poeple to raid on this server is ignorant. Theres a lot more to it than that and if you dont want to spend time in this game you dont deserve the spoils. We work hard in TMO to get those kills and TR works hard too.

First there are more then 2 "raiding" guilds on the server. You cannot decide that your definition of what a raiding guild is applies to this server over mine, or anyone else. More people than just you play here, i am sorry to say. You do need a lot of players to raid on this server because of the way you and TR play and the attitudes you play with. In some other post someone mentioned your average raid attendance was 40%. That would indicate you have to have 60% more tagged members then you need so that you have enough muster when a call is made. TR is a merge of US and Euro guild so they have members online in force 24 hours a day. You don't clear trash, you zerg bosses then loot and camp/wipe.



I will now list a few experiences i have had first hand that are examples of why your two guilds are relative shit (sorry if this is flame-ish)

Naggy spawns on a "simulated patch". Taken ends up there clearing fire giants. BDA kills Fay and then considers going for Naggy. We start to log alts and sub 53s and manage to gather like 10-12 people. Meanwhile Taken is now clearing Magi. At this point there are a handful of TR members, including some levle 60s and lower level alts camped at the ledge. TR rushes in to engage with 2 members at the same time Taken moves in to engage. More TR show up and log in and rush in. This is terrible play and outright exploiting since TR knows more then anyone the bugged banishment and knows to engage with level 60s and whatever else.

BDA is clearing fear trash on a random night. TR decides to "train" one of their newer bards at how to Kite the mobs for a Cazic attempt. It didn't take long for their practice train to find our raid and start killing it. Not intentional per se, but bad play and shit attitude toward other players in zone.

Another patch day. BDA kills Fay. Heads to fear with limited force hoping to get enough logged in for Cazic attempt. Start clearing trash towards Draco. Two TMO members zone in and agro Draco which starts DTs. As we recover another TMO member trains a large pull of boogeys and Terror(or one of the others i don't recall) on our raid. We res up and leave. All transgressions claim to be accidental, but i am not convinced since you all claim to be the best of the best and yet make retarded "mistakes" that causes grief to other players in zone.

The last example i have is more speculative but in my opinion suspicious. BDA tracks Fay in window. We mobilize to chessboard. We buff and start pulling. Eccezen and Muse (presumably played by Durison) are only to TMO in zone. TR starts to zone in with a force. We kill fay, albeit a bit sloppy. Had we not been there what would 2 TMO members do in TD? Interfere with TR force? Kite the dragon somewhere? There are enough other examples of this type of thing to raise these questions in my mind.


This is the kind of attitude and play that is shitting up this server everyday. This is the kind of attitude that is costing you content.

[Dr4z3r]

One of them being to remove variance and camping rules. Make it 100% FTE with no variance. This is how it was in classic.

If the variance were cut down to 12 hours or less (and especially if it were completely gone), you'd definitely see a lot worse going on than what we have now.

Current scene: All guilds logged out ready to engage trak. Any given guild has 3 or 4 roles that are filled in shifts (tracker, buffer, cother) for the 48 hour window. When the mob spawns, 45 (+ or - 15) people log in to kill, spending 30 minutes at most killing the mob.* Man-hours spent = 2(4x48 + 45x0.5) = 429

6-Hour variance scene: Every capable member of all guilds is online, in Trak's lair, with auto-attack on, mashing F8 for the entire window, and hoping that the coin-flip of initial aggro will go their way. Man-hours spent = 60x2x6 = 720**

0-Hour variance scene: Every remotely interested guild/solo player is on the spawn-point when the mob spawns, all hoping the FTE-dice are on their side. 200 people engage as the mob spawns, causing the entire zone to lag out, at least 30 petitions to be sent, and endless whining to ensue.

And people are saying the variance didn't accomplish its job?

*make it 10 minutes, counting time spent walking to the computer & logging in, if the first guild to engage doesn't wipe

**This is assuming only 2 guilds bother, and that they average 60 members online each

[anthony210]

I don't really like variance because it's not classic. However, as I said in my previous post the variance is most likely beyond our control, and was instituted for a reason.

If we were to remove it, and raid mobs were 100% FTE I think it would be even less fun for everybody, because as previously pointed out, there are about 4 or 5 guilds at most targets with auto attack on, sitting at a mobs spawn point spamming cycle nearest npc, 200 people would zerg the mob, and a petition would have to go in for every mob over who got FTE. Not exactly ideal/classic either unfortunately.

It's the playerbase that is most unclassic about this server.

Less fun? Perhaps. But it would be classic and give any guild there atleast a shot at getting the kill. Unlike now where if you are not camped out at the boss ready to log in soon as you get a batphone you are not going to kill shit unless you get lucky on a patch day respawn. Why should people be forced to camp out their main characters at a spawn point? Why cant we all just know when the boss is going to spawn like it was in classic so we can show up at that time?

The reason spawn variance was put in almost a year ago was because we had guilds sitting on spawn points over 24 hours in advance and using server rules to claim the spawn. Instead of simply changing the server rules to allow for FTE regardless of how long your guild has been sitting there, the developers decided to put in spawn variance. Which totally screwed over any smaller guilds from attempting to compete with larger more hardcore guilds.

If you want to kill something show up at a raid boss when its due to spawn and you will have a shot at FTE.

[anthony210]

If the variance were cut down to 12 hours or less (and especially if it were completely gone), you'd definitely see a lot worse going on than what we have now.

Current scene: All guilds logged out ready to engage trak. Any given guild has 3 or 4 roles that are filled in shifts (tracker, buffer, cother) for the 48 hour window. When the mob spawns, 45 (+ or - 15) people log in to kill, spending 30 minutes at most killing the mob.* Man-hours spent = 2(4x48 + 45x0.5) = 429

6-Hour variance scene: Every capable member of all guilds is online, in Trak's lair, with auto-attack on, mashing F8 for the entire window, and hoping that the coin-flip of initial aggro will go their way. Man-hours spent = 60x2x6 = 720**

0-Hour variance scene: Every remotely interested guild/solo player is on the spawn-point when the mob spawns, all hoping the FTE-dice are on their side. 200 people engage as the mob spawns, causing the entire zone to lag out, at least 30 petitions to be sent, and endless whining to ensue.

And people are saying the variance didn't accomplish its job?

*make it 10 minutes, counting time spent walking to the computer & logging in, if the first guild to engage doesn't wipe

**This is assuming only 2 guilds bother, and that they average 60 members online each

I would rather have the total chaos that comes with 200 people trying to engage at the same time and atleast have a shot at getting the kill regardless of how small that chance may be. Than to have our current situation where if you are in a smaller more casual guild you have zero chance of getting a boss unless you get lucky on a patch day.

If the players on classic live servers found a way to deal with the chaos, I am sure we on P99 can find a way as well considering we have a smaller population and less guilds.

[Kruel]

current situation where if you are in a smaller more casual guild you have zero chance of getting a boss unless you get lucky on a patch day.

This is classic, if you are in a smaller guild you dont get crap. QQ more.. Thats why TR and TMO are around.. if you want to progress.... change guilds.. not going to kill trak in guilds that dont attempt him even once.

[Vondra]

180 day variance, lets see who's hardcore then! =P

[Aadill]

I would rather have the total chaos that comes with 200 people trying to engage at the same time

I'm fairly certain the GMs wouldn't.

[Nebi]

Make every mob banish TR/TMO members.

[anthony210]

This is classic, if you are in a smaller guild you dont get crap. QQ more.. Thats why TR and TMO are around.. if you want to progress.... change guilds.. not going to kill trak in guilds that dont attempt him even once.

Incorrect. This is not classic. In classic it was FTE with no variance. Guild's had time of deaths and showed up when the boss was due. If you're guild got first engage and you killed the mob you won. On some servers guilds preferred to work together and formed rotations rather than have the constant chaos. Not all servers did that as someone said earlier. Leave it classic and let us work it out ourselves.

Hardcore guilds would still get more kills because they can kill stuff at odd hours when more casual guilds have no one online.

This is not a QQ about TMO or TR. This is about trying to find a better way to handle raiding on this server that promotes fairness. And going full classic would be the best way in my opinion.

Like I said before if the people on classic found a way to deal with it, we can find a way here.

[Dr4z3r]

I would rather have the total chaos that comes with 200 people trying to engage at the same time and atleast have a shot at getting the kill regardless of how small that chance may be.

Have you seen 200 people try to engage a mob at one time on P99? When I said it lags out the entire zone, I was not exaggerating.

Anyone who was at the first 2 attempts vs. the Prismatic Magical Armor a few weeks back can confirm.

[Kruel]

Incorrect. This is not classic. In classic it was FTE with no variance. Guild's had time of deaths and showed up when the boss was due. If you're guild got first engage and you killed the mob you won. On some servers guilds preferred to work together and formed rotations rather than have the constant chaos. Not all servers did that as someone said earlier. Leave it classic and let us work it out ourselves.

Hardcore guilds would still get more kills because they can kill stuff at odd hours when more casual guilds have no one online.

This is not a QQ about TMO or TR. This is about trying to find a better way to handle raiding on this server that promotes fairness. And going full classic would be the best way in my opinion.

Like I said before if the people on classic found a way to deal with it, we can find a way here.

your not reading what i quoted you as saying. In classic the little guilds didnt get shit, at least on my server. I couldnt show up from hamburglers of time (not a knock on the guild sorry) with 15 lvl 39s and let other guilds kill it when i got FTE and the shitfest that comes with no variance FTE. You have never been there when trak was in the last our of his variance with 150ppl sitting on his spawn point. I have a real good computer with fast internet and i saw trak for roughly 10 seconds before he got downd.. i had time to get one nuke off. Wasnt fun... at all. Thank god that doesnt happen allot.

[anthony210]

your not reading what i quoted you as saying. In classic the little guilds didnt get shit, at least on my server. I couldnt show up from hamburglers of time (not a knock on the guild sorry) with 15 lvl 39s and let other guilds kill it when i got FTE and the shitfest that comes with no variance FTE. You have never been there when trak was in the last our of his variance with 150ppl sitting on his spawn point. I have a real good computer with fast internet and i saw trak for roughly 10 seconds before he got downd.. i had time to get one nuke off. Wasnt fun... at all. Thank god that doesnt happen allot.

You are taking what I am saying too far. Of course guilds that cannot even kill the mob will not get shit. But if you have enough people of the proper level to kill Venril Sathir and you know he is going to spawn in 15 minutes. Well you get you're people to KC and hope for the best. This is how it was on live. If you're server had enough guilds willing to work together to avoid the chaos then they formed a rotation, if not then you had to deal with the chaos. Either way, that is the reality of how classic raiding went.

I understand that having 200 people is not fun, this is why I think if that happened enough times the guilds of this server would find a way to work together to avoid it.

Back to my first paragraph, do you really think 1 lone person who happens to get FTE will either do enough dps to actually get the xp or have the GM's side with him to get the loot. Obviously you would need to be able to kill the mob to claim FTE.

[Tarathiel]

What's the point in playing the game and winning all these phat pixels if all you can ever do with them is sit at a spawn point buffed and ready to get more? All that really says to me is you don't care about the loot. All you really want to do is prove that you can keep others from it. I mean really tho, did you guys really put all that effort into getting 60 just so you can camp your toon out at spawn points and not play them? Gimmie a break. I've seen a few comments about how this requires "skill".... That's kind of laughable to me. To me "skill" at this game is more along the lines of getting a small group of friends and guildies together to take down a big target. they may or may not even be possible for you to kill, but the effort requires more strategy and skill than just zerg rushing and poop socking. Right now the only "strategy" there is to raiding is who can mass recruit and have the largest amount of people willing to park their toons for 4+ days at a time

[Azzbad]

I'll thank all Divinity members ahead of time for making all future replies to this topic... topical.

This thread is for suggestions on improving the raid scene (if you feel changes are needed at all). This thread is not for slinging mud or labeling other guilds.

Anyone with a search button can find my views on this subject.

Found the hidden B!

[Asher]

I wanted to state the trend in these threads. Players that bitch about poopsocking and spending countless hours online waiting on a mob, are players that are not in TMO or TR. Players in TMO and TR, do not bitch about poopsocking. Let me explain why to all you clueless kids who cannot seem to grasp the strategy that we use.

A. Get 60, get gear, get resist pieces, essentially play your toon until you have nothing else to do excluding farming plat, or getting raid gear.
B. Camp out at trakanon buffed, for his window. Note the word camp, you are not online staring at a spawn. Also note A. we don't have anything else to do, so therefor we enjoy outside things while we wait.
C. Yes, one person does track, but he does not sit there for 12 straight hours. Our tracking is generally done by a wide range of players in small 1-2 hour shifts.

- Guilds that would like raid mobs, do some research on spawn windows, get your 60's prepped and ready, and come compete. Quit bitching that in reality, TMO and TR gets EVERY raid mob with only needing to play for about 30 minutes a week.

Mythoxxus - TMO.

*** To the guy who said normal 9-5 people can't raid. I take 5 classes at UCLA and work a 20 hour a week job. I've also shown up for every mob this last week. It's not as bad as you guys make it out to be!

That sounds like so much fun. Where do I sign up for this? :rolleyes:

Asher

[Aadill]

That sounds like so much fun. Where do I sign up for this? :rolleyes:

http://themysticalorder.net/phpBB3/application.php

http://www.ucla.edu/

http://www.monster.com/

[Asher]

your not reading what i quoted you as saying. In classic the little guilds didnt get shit, at least on my server. I couldnt show up from hamburglers of time (not a knock on the guild sorry) with 15 lvl 39s and let other guilds kill it when i got FTE and the shitfest that comes with no variance FTE. You have never been there when trak was in the last our of his variance with 150ppl sitting on his spawn point. I have a real good computer with fast internet and i saw trak for roughly 10 seconds before he got downd.. i had time to get one nuke off. Wasnt fun... at all. Thank god that doesnt happen allot.

Lets say that BDA, Taken, VD and Destiny all decide they are gonna play the same game that TMO/TR play now. Everyone gets their trackers and has people monitor zones and camps people out during mob windows.

How does this differ from what you are mentioning? The current situation doesn't bother you because both TMO and TR are prepared for it. Once/if the other guilds do too then we have chaos once again. What would the Devs implement for this situation?

I am not blaming the Devs/GMs/Guides for doing what they did. I understand the reasoning behind it but I think a better solution needs to be found. This bandaid is only going to hold for so long.

This is a non-classic script put in to make the GM/Guides lives easier, but all goes to hell if all the other guilds are willing to do what TMO/TR currently do.

Why don't we just find a real solution that doesn't involve these work arounds for this non-classic variance script.

Asher

[Kruel]

Lets say that BDA, Taken, VD and Destiny all decide they are gonna play the same game that TMO/TR play now. Everyone gets their trackers and has people monitor zones and camps people out during mob windows.

How does this differ from what you are mentioning? The current situation doesn't bother you because both TMO and TR are prepared for it. Once/if the other guilds do too then we have chaos once again. What would the Devs implement for this situation?

I am not blaming the Devs/GMs/Guides for doing what they did. I understand the reasoning behind it but I think a better solution needs to be found. This bandaid is only going to hold for so long.

This is a non-classic script put in to make the GM/Guides lives easier, but all goes to hell if all the other guilds are willing to do what TMO/TR currently do.

Why don't we just find a real solution that doesn't involve these work arounds for this non-classic variance script.

Asher

See this makes more sence. The original poster wanted to change the rules. You guys CAN right now do this plan. Nothing would be wrong for you to do it. There will be no chaos.. If you guys can get 3-4 guilds on the same batphone and get 30-40 players online within 3-4 minutes and engage before tmo or tr and live - i sir would applaud you. This is a better idea then trying to QQ about wanting a rotation. Instead of doing this plan you guys cry and say "we want a rotation". Get ur butts up to traks lair, spend the money prebuffing 40-45 people, and work at getting loot. I have yet to see another guild precamp a solid raid force in lair, but i have seen allot of threads on rotations.

[Aadill]

all goes to hell if all the other guilds are willing to do what TMO/TR currently do.

I disagree on the grounds that the element of surprise of when the mob spawns decreases the chances that everyone will be there in equal force by the time the mob has been engaged/killed.

Both TR and TMO have had situations in which they had been too slow in getting to the starting gate to even attempt a mob before the other already killed it. Everyone can indeed camp out on Trak ledge (which, again, is the only mob that TR and TMO even consider camping out at for any extended period of time on a regular basis) but in most cases won't ever see the mob unless they get on the ball with alerting their entire guild to log in and kill it IMMEDIATELY.

This is how variance FTE differs from no variance FTE. By removing the element of surprise, what remains? Exactly what Kruel/Minten stated. Everyone will be there.

I think a smaller variance would be beneficial because the window is freaking huge for each mob but even as it stands all guilds are racing to targets other than Trakanon. Whether they are jumping out of Sky or porting out from Trak ledge or OT hammering from around the world, grabbing ports from an xp dungeon or whatever, they definitely aren't sitting on top of the spawn for 4 days waiting to login and hit attack. It's way more in depth than that. Zero variance FTE would remove even that aspect of the game.

[Asher]

I disagree on the grounds that the element of surprise of when the mob spawns decreases the chances that everyone will be there in equal force by the time the mob has been engaged/killed.

Both TR and TMO have had situations in which they had been too slow in getting to the starting gate to even attempt a mob before the other already killed it. Everyone can indeed camp out on Trak ledge (which, again, is the only mob that TR and TMO even consider camping out at for any extended period of time on a regular basis) but in most cases won't ever see the mob unless they get on the ball with alerting their entire guild to log in and kill it IMMEDIATELY.

This is how variance FTE differs from no variance FTE. By removing the element of surprise, what remains? Exactly what Kruel/Minten stated. Everyone will be there.

I think a smaller variance would be beneficial because the window is freaking huge for each mob but even as it stands all guilds are racing to targets other than Trakanon. Whether they are jumping out of Sky or porting out from Trak ledge or OT hammering from around the world, grabbing ports from an xp dungeon or whatever, they definitely aren't sitting on top of the spawn for 4 days waiting to login and hit attack. It's way more in depth than that. Zero variance FTE would remove even that aspect of the game.

With only two guilds I can see some being late to the party but with 4 or 5 I think we would have the same problems again. I am sure that TR/TMO and GM/Guides are content to wait until we get to this point to make a change. Other guilds don't want to have to go to these crazy lengths for a non-classic script.

You retort that we are not as ambitious as you and you may be right. What the Devs/Guides make guilds do requires a lot of extra work that shouldn't be necessary to hit raid targets, at least in my opinion.

I still hope a better solution can be found, whatever that may be.

Asher

[casdegere]

The raid rules will always apply though. 1) Must have the force necessary there to kill the mob, 2) first to engage.

Something both guilds have learned. TMO has tagged mobs before TR though TR Killed (KSed) it and vice versa.

What I think the small guilds need to do for Trak is get a watcher, practice communicating with their members to get them there quickly. If there force is there and they manage to get first tag they are all set no matter who gets the kill or majority of damage.

However thus this is the problem. A GM has to be called and the spam has to be gone thru to see who tagged first in lieu of both guilds working together to ensure that they alternate the kills/looting rights without GM intervention. If I had to be called to every Trak kill to settle a dispute I wouldn't dish out anymore content either.

[Dr4z3r]

However thus this is the problem. A GM has to be called and the spam has to be gone thru to see who tagged first in lieu of both guilds working together to ensure that they alternate the kills/looting rights without GM intervention. If I had to be called to every Trak kill to settle a dispute I wouldn't dish out anymore content either.

It's been suggested multiple times over and in multiple places that raid mobs shout the name of the first person to engage them so as to eliminate any confusion (heck, DT'ing mobs already do this), but the devs haven't gone with it.

[Nedala]

@ Everyone who wants variance removed: You were obviously not there for the few weeks when there was no first-15-on-island rule for noble dojorn. Guess what happened? For a few spawns there were 3-5 guilds "poopsocking" noble's spawnpoint because everyone knew he was going to spawn. Guess what happened each time? All guilds engaged, dojorn was down within seconds and nobody had a clue who engaged first. Besides that it makes the encounter trivial it does need GM intervention each time, and its not the least fun. So the GMs decided to make a rule so whoever gets first 15 on dojorns island would get the kill, cause there was NO WAY the fix spawn timer was going to work. Trakanon and Venril would probably be worse than that.

Live was different, live didnt have so many competing guilds, capable of raiding. This isnt live, the rules that applied there wont work here, it's not like
we didnt try.


Edit:

It's been suggested multiple times over and in multiple places that raid mobs shout the name of the first person to engage them so as to eliminate any confusion (heck, DT'ing mobs already do this), but the devs haven't gone with it.

That way you would remove the need of GM intervention, but still raiding would be no more fun at all, when it only comes down to who of the 100 people around the mob get the first hit? How much fun is that? Welcome to p99, where luck decides who gets the kill :rolleyes:

[Aadill]

You retort that we are not as ambitious as you and you may be right. What the Devs/Guides make guilds do requires a lot of extra work that shouldn't be necessary to hit raid targets, at least in my opinion.

In a sense, yes. In fact, the term "work" should be replaced with "devotion," as work has been used by many people to exclaim that no one else is wanting to "work" to get a single target mob. If you replace that word with devotion, I do believe that is true.

However, I do believe it is unnecessary to start a rotation or completely remove variance. I have found much dislike for the ideas of rotation with a convoluted set of rules because it no longer delineates one guild from the next. It creates a situation in which all identity is lost except by the string of letters next to your name (and even then they lose all meaning unless you're attached to the name e.g. Fires of Heaven, Transcendence (Transcendence Gaming deals in multiple games), etc.).

Instancing was EQLive's solution to complaints about competition because all rotations were player-made and not GM-enforced. When I went back to live for a brief stint I joined my old guild but found myself uninterested in making sure that I stood in x spot so i didn't wipe the guild versus what we have here which is racing to the target (whether it's actual racing across zones or just logging in) and being ready to go and not stand in x spot which would wipe the guild and basically hand the mob to the other guild(s) present. At that point I realized then that I didn't really care for my old guild despite having my beginnings there. They were like any other group of people that logged into Everquest: PlayerA is PlayerB is PlayerC. My return to the game added a PlayerD. Raiding was incredibly boring.

Here, however, there is an element of surprise and more danger than just needing to get a rez and trying again. Wiping here means that you probably lost the mob, not just time because you had to rez. There's no instancing, no rotations on mobs giving free chances at loot without some sort of danger.

I do understand that even in a rotation system the idea of handing off a mob to the next guild in the rotation if a guild wipes has been presented. In my opinion that can look great on paper but not really mean much in game. The lack of a pressure-inducing time constraint allows too lax of a raiding atmosphere and consequently no shifting of ownership of mobs. Whether or not this is true is mostly unfounded, but obviously multiple guilds are getting kills on patch days. This leads me to the notion that even in a rotation where you introduce some danger of losing a mob, it's never going to happen without some sort of pressure and consequent adaptation to said pressure. That adaptation is what creates a guild identity and makes the raiders of that guild fit in with that identity.

Without some sort of identifier I don't really care who is in TMO, TR, Vesica Dei, Divinity, Transcendence, Taken, BDA, or any other guild. All of these guilds consider themselves raid guilds and each has their own identity and style when it comes to raiding.

no first-15-on-island rule for noble dojorn. Guess what happened? For a few spawns there were 3-5 guilds "poopsocking" noble's spawnpoint because everyone knew he was going to spawn. Guess what happened each time? All guilds engaged, dojorn was down within seconds and nobody had a clue who engaged first. Besides that it makes the encounter trivial it does need GM intervention each time, and its not the least fun. So the GMs decided to make a rule so whoever gets first 15 on dojorns island would get the kill, cause there was NO WAY the fix spawn timer was going to work.

If I remember correctly, the rule originally didn't apply because it was a non-agro mob. Even with the 15 man claim before the rule was applied, the mob was still attacked by everyone
because it was explained that it was always fair game. What's important though is what you outlined: the spawn timer was known and everyone gunned for it.
but still raiding would be no more fun at all, when it only comes down to who of the 100 people around the mob get the first hit? How much fun is that? Welcome to p99, where luck decides who gets the kill :rolleyes:

It would prevent instances in which already engaged mobs aren't tagged by players of opposing guilds. KSing entities could then easily be banned because they'd have no reason to continue attacking if they knew who attacked first.

[Nedala]

Oh i agree the shout message is a good idea in general, but i dont think removing variance would work, shout message or not.

[Mcbard]

Less fun? Perhaps. But it would be classic and give any guild there atleast a shot at getting the kill. Unlike now where if you are not camped out at the boss ready to log in soon as you get a batphone you are not going to kill shit unless you get lucky on a patch day respawn. Why should people be forced to camp out their main characters at a spawn point? Why cant we all just know when the boss is going to spawn like it was in classic so we can show up at that time?

The reason spawn variance was put in almost a year ago was because we had guilds sitting on spawn points over 24 hours in advance and using server rules to claim the spawn. Instead of simply changing the server rules to allow for FTE regardless of how long your guild has been sitting there, the developers decided to put in spawn variance. Which totally screwed over any smaller guilds from attempting to compete with larger more hardcore guilds.

If you want to kill something show up at a raid boss when its due to spawn and you will have a shot at FTE.

I would think that part of the thought process behind making the windows so long is so that not everyone would be trying to shit all over every mob every time the window was open, but that only a select few would. I could be wrong, but I'm sure there is a reason some windows are 4days long.

[Kope]

Without some sort of identifier I don't really care who is in TMO, TR, Vesica Dei, Divinity, Transcendence, Taken, BDA, or any other guild. All of these guilds consider themselves raid guilds and each has their own identity and style when it comes to raiding.

Who really cares that each guild is special like a snowflake; The devs have taken notice of the things that are going on and have deemed it not worthy of the next raid experience.

If you guys don't want to grow up and share then you won't get the next steps you've been preparing for.

[Mcbard]

It's been suggested multiple times over and in multiple places that raid mobs shout the name of the first person to engage them so as to eliminate any confusion (heck, DT'ing mobs already do this), but the devs haven't gone with it.

Being DT'd does not earn you FTE however, it is whoever is on the agro list after the person who got DT'd. Ask the people at Yale about that one. :p

[Aadill]

Who really cares that each guild is special like a snowflake; The devs have taken notice of the things that are going on and have deemed it not worthy of the next raid experience.

If you guys don't want to grow up and share then you won't get the next steps you've been preparing for.

I supported a solution that would've fixed this entire ordeal ages ago. Obviously no one was backing down but it did provide a simple way to police ourselves. It was never implemented.

McBard: He's referring to the idea that a shout would occur once a hate list would be initiated. The DT'd individual would be all on his/her lonesome on one hate list and the next person to tag would be on the actual hate list that resulted in a raid engaegment. Non DTing mobs and DTing mobs alike would have an agro shout. DTing mobs would have a DT shout/agro shout and then another agro shout. This exactly follows how the rights to a mob are determined on this server but the agro shout would immediately indicate who had claim to it, and all other guilds would back off to allow the guild to kill it or wipe.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

The problem is Aadill this is the only emu classic server. We have a limited number of players. You could get your wish sooner then later about being able to identify when you're down to one or two guilds. It reminds of me playing a single player rpg where you stack all your characters with all the best gear. yay?

[Aadill]

The problem is Aadill this is the only emu classic server. We have a limited number of players. You could get your wish sooner then later about being able to identify when you're down to one or two guilds. It reminds of me playing a single player rpg where you stack all your characters with all the best gear. yay?

I understand what you are saying but I'm pointing out pretty much any hardcore raider's view. People want to be the best and are working to make that happen. In your single player rpg do you give your opponents the same gear as you?

[Kope]

In your single player rpg do you give your opponents the same gear as you?

Unfotunately it's not in the game mechanics. Luckily in this game it is.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

The argument is so off I don't know where I want to begin. What you are 'giving' is players a chance to enjoy the ONLY server we have here. What good does all your 'hardcore' raiding do if there is no one to buy or show your shiny new gear? The difference will still come with Sleepers tomb, or AoW, as content is released the 'hardcore' raiders will still be on top. And let's be honest is it really hardcore with text messaging? With a decade of knowledge? If you really wanted the classic experience every encounter zone would be different so people would have to learn. And you wouldn't be able to use instant messaging alerts to cell phones. Instancing wasn't an answer to 'competition' it solved many problems for them not just CSR but also kept their player base up.

You effectively want 100 of 700 plus people catered to. On a server of 100 who cares if all your alts have trak bps? Is one million pp enough, 3? Does it matter when you have nothing to buy? Instead of building any kind of community that has a chance to endure , eh fuck it don't know why I even bother. Like calling yourselves smart when you have the answers to the test in front of you. And be the first one to get a 100pct on the test cuz you raced to the front of the class first. People are fucking clueless so this is my last post on this forum unless I edit our guild discussion post.

Live was different, live didnt have so many competing guilds, capable of raiding. This isnt live, the rules that applied there wont work here, it's not like
we didnt try.

Correct, it isn't live. But you want to approach a unique problem or set of circumstances with the same approach.

[Marmo]

I think the notion of a rotation is commie nonsense that punishes those who have worked hard for the sake of those who have not. It will also have various unintended consequences.

If you think the top raiding guilds have no life for their tracking, tweeting and camping out at targets, or that this requires an unreasonable amount of time then you're just ignorant. If you want raid targets, compete, don't try to punish the successful for the sake of your envy; And if you can't beat em, join em.

[Asher]

I think the notion of a rotation is commie nonsense that punishes those who have worked hard for the sake of those who have not. It will also have various unintended consequences.

If you think the top raiding guilds have no life for their tracking, tweeting and camping out at targets, or that this requires an unreasonable amount of time then you're just ignorant. If you want raid targets, compete, don't try to punish the successful for the sake of your envy; And if you can't beat em, join em.

Yes, to have a chance at raid target a guild should have to have a Twitter account, log their toons off at the mobs spawn point within the window fully buffed and wait. This is so classic and fun.

How about we compete in a true classic environment without the variance?

TR/TMO aren't special because they are willing to twitter and log their mains off at mob spawn points. One could say they are more dedicated but I think these steps are unnecessary and ruin the spirit of this classic server.

If they made another server tomorrow with some form of manditory rotation, or even a better solution than the one already presented in place I wonder how many people would leave p99.

I know I would.

Asher

[Kope]

I think the notion of a rotation is commie nonsense that punishes those who have worked hard for the sake of those who have not. It will also have various unintended consequences.

If you think the top raiding guilds have no life for their tracking, tweeting and camping out at targets, or that this requires an unreasonable amount of time then you're just ignorant. If you want raid targets, compete, don't try to punish the successful for the sake of your envy; And if you can't beat em, join em.

why do you believe you're entitled to the pixels? That sounds more commie than anything. Basically you can either get past your ego and share with everyone or you won't be getting your further pixels. The choice is yours.

[M.Bison]

That sounds more commie than anything...
share with everyone
This made me lawl pretty hard.

[Kope]

This made me lawl pretty hard.

You're actually quite correct.

Communists believe everyone should share with everyone.

Current US politics say "Entitlements are communist."

So if you have the choice of thinking you're entitled to something because of past events, or you have to share with everyone, what's more communist?

[druziil]

Shaere i know hiw you feel. There is no room on this server to debate or work together.

Here is a new idea for all of us not in TMO or TR; stop dealing with and talking to anyone who wears these tags. If you don't buy their items, or sell them services, or group with them, how long before they started running anon or tagless. If the rest of the community shuns those guilds 100% it would be a lot harder for them to operate. They are proud of their behavior and acomplishments. You can change that by telling them to get lost everytime you see them. What loyalties do their mass members have? If they started paying a price for entry some of them might reconsider being members. If you hurt their bat phone turnout and they start being unsuccessful then they may fall apart all together.

Fight the power!

[Autotune]

Shaere i know hiw you feel. There is no room on this server to debate or work together.

Here is a new idea for all of us not in TMO or TR; stop dealing with and talking to anyone who wears these tags. If you don't buy their items, or sell them services, or group with them, how long before they started running anon or tagless. If the rest of the community shuns those guilds 100% it would be a lot harder for them to operate. They are proud of their behavior and acomplishments. You can change that by telling them to get lost everytime you see them. What loyalties do their mass members have? If they started paying a price for entry some of them might reconsider being members. If you hurt their bat phone turnout and they start being unsuccessful then they may fall apart all together.

Fight the power!

LOL

[Bubbles]

This thread is completely pointless....

without tags.

[Autotune]

This thread is completely pointless....

without tags.

Agreed.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If you think the top raiding guilds have no life for their tracking, tweeting and camping out at targets, or that this requires an unreasonable amount of time then you're just ignorant.

There will be no chaos.. If you guys can get 3-4 guilds on the same batphone and get 30-40 players online within 3-4 minutes and engage before tmo or tr and live - i sir would applaud you.

These two versions of "top end guild raid devotion" conflict. On one hand, Marmo claims this takes a reasonable amount of time and does not, in fact, require one to have "no life". Kruel claims this involves getting 30-40 players online within 3-4 minutes, implying that we have to stay within 3-4 minutes of our computers (granted, not actually online in P99, so technically not poopsocking) at all times and log in once the tweet/text comes in.

So which is it?

Yeah, you're not poopsocking, but I don't see how your raid force can stay within 3-4 minutes of their computers at all times and still have lives, so to speak. If I want to go for a walk outside on a nice day, can I only walk around my apartment with my cell phone in case I get a raid text? If I want to go out with friends, do I have to bring my laptop and slap it down on the bar table if I get a text? Can I only drive my vehicle on county roads so I can pull off to the side of the road and whip out my laptop on a moment's notice? Can I plan family meals longer than 2 minutes so I don't have to leap out from my seat during a meal if I get a text?

That's why this is ridiculous for the other 95% of the server. Call it lack of devotion to pixels or whatever you want, but it's a damn shame that raid content is being cut off for the rest of us because some people are just Taking Things Way Too Seriously, and are chaining themselves to a computer with a 3-4 minute tether.

[Lazortag]

Warning: this post is long. (edit: so long, in fact, that I think it's lagging up the site.)

I committed to not responding to this thread again because I couldn't promise myself that I'd be civil, since I was taking what some people said in this thread a little too seriously, but I took a deep breath, came to the realization that this is just a game, and now I'm calm. Given how long this post is you'll probably still think I take this too seriously, which might be true, whatever. First, I'm sorry for insinuating that people in TR/TMO have no lives. I'm friendly with probably 99% of the members of both guilds so I basically insulted people who are normally nice to me, which is mean. It's also a little silly coming from me because as a lot of you know, I play this game constantly - even if I leave it on while studying or doing something else unproductive, I've still racked up a /played time so high that I'm ashamed to even post it, so it's hypocritical of me to say that others (who probably play less than me) have no lives outside of EQ.

See? Even I can admit that I'm fallible.

As for the raid scene, I've suggested a lot of fixes that I thought were fair for everyone, because I like consensus-building and I really do care about accommodating everyone and not just serving my own interests. I still think some kind of weighted rotation would be fairest, but a big objection is that it wouldn't feel competitive and it wouldn't necessarily give guilds the share of mobs that they deserve. I'll say right away that any rotation that allows every guild an exactly equal number of mobs is a bad idea, just like any rotation that lets guilds get mobs that they haven't even proven they can kill yet. It's not even worth getting into the reasons why it wouldn't be fair, the fact is that it would never get any support from the top guilds, and any solution has to take into account what all guilds think, not just the casual ones.

Since no rotation that isn't absurdly complicated will have the competitive feel that many guilds enjoy, I don't think we're ready for a rotation just yet. So let's try and think of solutions that would feel competitive but aren't too complex (and hopefully aren't too hard on the GM's), yet still make raiding accessible, fun, and fair. For one, I think that server repops on patch days are awesome and need to happen more consistently. Like, 100% of content-related patches should have server repops - they are great for both casual guilds and hardcore guilds, they promote competition, but most of all they're fun, and I don't see why we don't have them more often if everyone likes them and they're classic. If Rogean likes having a variance on server repops (which I don't think existed at this point in the classic timeline, but I wouldn't know), then that's cool too even if I don't prefer it, so long as we know that everything is gonna pop soon. I'm sorry if any of this sounds ungrateful - trust me, I'm glad that repops happen at all when they used to never happen, but I'm just making a suggestion that I think has a lot of support.

Secondly, the variance. I think we should first stipulate whether any variance existed at all and if it did, how long it was. I've heard people say that a small variance (like 6-12 hours) existed for most raid mobs and I've heard others say that no variance existed. Regardless, I think our server is unique in that it has a large number of european players who would be screwed out of content if everything spawned when they weren't as likely to be awake, which would happen if the variance was removed entirely. But I still think the windows should be shortened, I'd say to 12 or 24 hours or something like that, as opposed to 96 hours which is the norm for most raid mobs. There's enough raid content on this server that it wouldn't cause a huge clusterfuck (when before kunark it might have) - sure, people will camp out at trak and even be more likely to sock him because the cost of keeping your guild online at the spawn point of such a valuable mob isn't as high as before, but the worst that that would happen is that other guilds would be deterred from attempting trak and instead go for other targets, which they'd be satisfied with.

Many people (including some in the top guilds) say that the windows are unreasonably long and that they need to be shortened, so I think everyone would be okay with it. This would hugely boost competition on this server (something the top guilds want more of), but still give TR/TMO proportionally more mobs and more free time. Whether some people can manage the variance as it currently is doesn't change the fact that it's too long for classic, and that most casual players will attest that they just don't have the time to compete with windows that big. Again, I'm not saying that you have to be unemployed to track mobs with variance on this server, and I'm sorry again for suggesting that people who commit to tracking raid mobs have no lives outside of eq. But let's also stop with this narrative that people who aren't willing to track are "noobs" or that they "don't work hard enough" or that their guilds have poor leadership. I realize people said those things after they were provoked, but let's all just be nice to each other (again, I'm as guilty as anyone of being hostile, but it does no good to fling insults at each other).

We should also probably get rid of the "first to 15" rule, since it's kind of archaic, but I've never actually been involved in a situation where it was invoked so I can't definitively say whether it's a bad rule or not.

(edited out some grammar mistakes)

[mitic]

rotation on bosses was the reason why soe started to make instanced zones and that was the very reason why we all stoped playing on live.

think about it for a moment

[Kope]

rotation on bosses was the reason why soe started to make instanced zones and that was the very reason why we all stoped playing on live.

think about it for a moment

I thought it was to give everyone a shot on completing the game for themselves because not everyone could with a minimum amount of "raid bosses" needed.

Basically the precursor to poopsocking is why they did it (or so i've been told from a few different sources).

[Vohl]

I actually appreciated the Ragefire solution -- collect rare drops in a (then) high-end zone to spawn a bottleneck mob. The same mechanism was used later to trigger bosses in later releases.

This avoids instancing, incents players to get into dungeon groups, and gets rid of camping the named (and the nastiness involved).

While it isn't authentic to the original Kunark content, I think it is very much in the spirit of original EQ to make a difficult quest with rare items result in a raid encounter, such as a dragon fight.

[Zenlina]

The current design is fine imo, sure tmo/tr have been getting the majority of the mobs, but i have also seen bda/taken pushing for bosses too and getting them on afew occasions. Sure the newer guilds entering the raid scene might run into afew hiccips with both TR/TMO (this is inevitable because both guilds have been adapting to the rules and raiding bosses longer) but they still able to take away with some wins.

This i applaud them because it shows that they are taking action and not just blowing air as i have seen alot in this thread doing. It all comes down to adapting to how things are done at the moment, all the info has already been put in this forum how its done, just comes down to if people are willing or not to do them. Not try to change things to cater better to what you want.

This is not live, rotation and removal of variance will not change anything except cause more headaches for the GM, thats why they put this system in, its to cater to the dev/gm needs not ours and its there right since they run the server.

[Duie]

Good post except the issue the devs brought to light and that you posted is already being worked on.

The issue and resolution everyone else in the thread seems set on enacting is rotating mobs between not the "top guilds" but "anybody capable of killing a mob" so that the 500 level 60s on the server all get a chance at raid mobs because they don't want to log their characters out prepared and track. They wish to have their cake and eat it too.. which I don't recall being classic.

That comes off kind of dickish, but seriously this is what it seems to boil down to from everything I've been reading on this subject in the last couple of weeks. "Man we really want to kill dragons, but on this server you have to track them during their windows and have your force buffed, logged out, and prepared to do so in order to kill anything, and we don't want to do that since it's not what we did in classic!"

I don't get it. =\

Edit: And it should be known that I personally, as well as most everyone I'm sure is all for a solution that makes everything as classic as possible, however we need to keep a few things in mind, imo:
1. Variances were put in for a reason
2. The solution should affect all people equally
3. It should be easier for the GM's not more difficult
4. At the end of the day there are going to be 500 people standing around a pie and wanting a slice, but there just isn't enough to go around.

If you were to put in a rotation system w/ progression in mind(IE you gotta be able to clear all of sky before you can go to kunark ECT) the majority of those 500 people would not be in your way. you could do this as a step that guilds would have to complete in order to advance .

EPICS- make no mistake about it, In order for a rotation system to work, the top guilds would (and rightfully so) want first crack at these Epics. So make up your mind right now if you are willing to let one of these guys on your raid for the epic drops.if not then you guys can forget about seeing CT ,VS or Inny for a long time.

For the top guilds- if a rotation means we stay out of your playground , Are you willing to stay out of ours unless it is your turn at CT/INNY ect? You would Effectivly be able to complete the epics w/o the bullshit faster by compromizing on this, Keep in mind that the old loot goes to the mini bosses soon as epics are put in place.

Vox NAggy- With the lvl 52 restriction i feal these could be comunity events hosted By the top two w/ the epic pieces going to them. other loot could be Randomed.

VArrence. None of the above works if noone can plan when the boss mobs are going to be up. Guilds will be given a set amount of time from pop to either pass to next guild in line or Forfiet to FFA on said Boss.

compition- See REd99 or start requiring all the toons that are socking to stay logged on and at the pc NOT AFK for the 48 hour +/- sockfest . lets see who can stay up the longest.

[SwordNboard]

I actually appreciated the Ragefire solution -- collect rare drops in a (then) high-end zone to spawn a bottleneck mob. The same mechanism was used later to trigger bosses in later releases.

This avoids instancing, incents players to get into dungeon groups, and gets rid of camping the named (and the nastiness involved).

While it isn't authentic to the original Kunark content, I think it is very much in the spirit of original EQ to make a difficult quest with rare items result in a raid encounter, such as a dragon fight.

I actually sort of like this.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I am curious:

-with lev 52 restriction on dragons, how do 53+ people suppose to LEGALLY obtain their epic drops??? Like seriously, WTF Verant was thinking?

[Zenlina]

I am curious:

-with lev 52 restriction on dragons, how do 53+ people suppose to LEGALLY obtain their epic drops??? Like seriously, WTF Verant was thinking?

Talendor, Fey, Gorenaire, Sev, Ragefire dragon edition (Once epic out).

[Bubbles]

I actually disagree with Giegue's assumption that TMO/TR would welcome more 'competition'. That said, i think he's spot on that any form of a compromise at all needs to leave all parties walking away from the table feeling they gained something for what they 'gave up'.

So what would TMO/TR stand to gain by giving in even the slightest?

Outside of Veeshan's Peak, i can't come up with anything. And i'm not thinking the powers that be are seriously going to make it come down to that.

Things are bad, they are going to get worse with epics, and we'll see how it shakes out.

My stance has never wavered. -> A second server is needed. Red99 is an option. Putting Beta back up is an option. Splitting p99 into two servers is an option (and completely, utterly classic), and just tossing up a new server from scratch starting at level one with either classic only progression or kunark enabled from day one.. is also an option.

Server split is the most interesting, would be interesting to see if TMO + TR would go one way with casual who don't care about raiding.. and Taken/Div/BDA/VD/Reclamation/etc would all dogpile the other direction.. Or if TR would go one way with TMO / BDA and TR would go the other with VD/ Div etc.. or some random swapping alike.. or whatever. Would make for some interesting forum banter, regardless.

But no matter what, A split would give us everything the player base needs : twice the targets, period. It's a high-end heavy server and the player base has little in common with the demographics and skill capability a typical server in 1999 had. This probably has been beaten to death, but it's the most valid of points.

The bottleneck of course is, we barely have the staff for one server, much less a surplus that would lend itself to having 2 servers at the same time running flawlessly.. No matter what the forum trolls think, the majority of the CSR job on p99 isn't solving dragon disputes, it's dealing with the normal day-to-day petitions and box-hunting, etc..

[Kika Maslyaka]

opps, somehow I thought that book only drops off Vox. NM then :D

[Ulivar]

I am curious:

-with lev 52 restriction on dragons, how do 53+ people suppose to LEGALLY obtain their epic drops??? Like seriously, WTF Verant was thinking?

they are supposed to kill kunark dragons, gore/tal etc

[Humerox]

It's a high-end heavy server and the player base has little in common with the demographics and skill capability a typical server in 1999 had. This probably has been beaten to death, but it's the most valid of points.

It hasn't been beaten enough, imho. The horse is alive and kicking.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Server split is the most interesting, would be interesting to see if TMO + TR would go one way with casual who don't care about raiding.. and Taken/Div/BDA/VD/Reclamation/etc would all dogpile the other direction.. Or if TR would go one way with TMO / BDA and TR would go the other with VD/ Div etc.. or some random swapping alike.. or whatever. Would make for some interesting forum banter, regardless.

Since the high-end game is not really about competition (i.e. each time they get actual competition, they merge to strengthen their numbers or they rules-lawyer everything to their favor instead of actually competing) and more about "who can get the most pixels", each uber raid guild will do precisely what it takes to ensure themselves the most pixels... find out which server the other is going to, and go to the opposite one.

Why burn themselves out fighting over raid targets when they can each have one of the two hypothetical servers to themselves, when no other raid guild has demonstrated the desire to "show devotion" at their level? Then we're right back where we started... two servers each with one hardcore raid guild Taking Things a Little Too Seriously (tm), and then the casual/semi-casuals who aren't willing to sacrifice real life for a video game, still being cut out of the endgame.

Server split only works if the hardcore go to one server and compete against each other, which they have been clamoring "makes EQ fun" for them. But I don't think they want actual competition... they try to snuff it out as soon as it emerges.

[SwordNboard]

< The Mystical Transatlantic Rampage Order >

[Autotune]

Since the high-end game is not really about competition (i.e. each time they get actual competition, they merge to strengthen their numbers or they rules-lawyer everything to their favor instead of actually competing) and more about "who can get the most pixels", each uber raid guild will do precisely what it takes to ensure themselves the most pixels... find out which server the other is going to, and go to the opposite one.

Why burn themselves out fighting over raid targets when they can each have one of the two hypothetical servers to themselves, when no other raid guild has demonstrated the desire to "show devotion" at their level? Then we're right back where we started... two servers each with one hardcore raid guild Taking Things a Little Too Seriously (tm), and then the casual/semi-casuals who aren't willing to sacrifice real life for a video game, still being cut out of the endgame.

Server split only works if the hardcore go to one server and compete against each other, which they have been clamoring "makes EQ fun" for them. But I don't think they want actual competition... they try to snuff it out as soon as it emerges.

If you don't try to destroy your competition, then they aren't really competition.

Google it and you will find.

competitor - the contestant you hope to defeat.

Every guild on the server has the chance to snag any dragon/god on the server (except maybe Trakanon). Trak is a poop fest when he comes around, and that's much because he is the main key to cockblocking VP for other guilds. Whenever Trak is in window, the other guilds have a significantly greater chance at grabbing raid targets.

Want to fix the current raid scene and make it more interesting? Make it so that when Trakanon is in window, all other raid targets that happen to be in window have a increased chance to spawn.

I think the only thing that should be rotated is VP and that is mainly to combat the stupid shit that will happen in there if both guilds are racing. It will be a clusterfuck that will only end up with people getting banned (be it because of something intentional or not) and causing the GMs to get even more frustrated.

least that's how I see it playing out.

[Mcbard]

I actually disagree with Giegue's assumption that TMO/TR would welcome more 'competition'. That said, i think he's spot on that any form of a compromise at all needs to leave all parties walking away from the table feeling they gained something for what they 'gave up'.

So what would TMO/TR stand to gain by giving in even the slightest?

Outside of Veeshan's Peak, i can't come up with anything. And i'm not thinking the powers that be are seriously going to make it come down to that.

Things are bad, they are going to get worse with epics, and we'll see how it shakes out.

My stance has never wavered. -> A second server is needed. Red99 is an option. Putting Beta back up is an option. Splitting p99 into two servers is an option (and completely, utterly classic), and just tossing up a new server from scratch starting at level one with either classic only progression or kunark enabled from day one.. is also an option.

Server split is the most interesting, would be interesting to see if TMO + TR would go one way with casual who don't care about raiding.. and Taken/Div/BDA/VD/Reclamation/etc would all dogpile the other direction.. Or if TR would go one way with TMO / BDA and TR would go the other with VD/ Div etc.. or some random swapping alike.. or whatever. Would make for some interesting forum banter, regardless.

But no matter what, A split would give us everything the player base needs : twice the targets, period. It's a high-end heavy server and the player base has little in common with the demographics and skill capability a typical server in 1999 had. This probably has been beaten to death, but it's the most valid of points.

The bottleneck of course is, we barely have the staff for one server, much less a surplus that would lend itself to having 2 servers at the same time running flawlessly.. No matter what the forum trolls think, the majority of the CSR job on p99 isn't solving dragon disputes, it's dealing with the normal day-to-day petitions and box-hunting, etc..

We only have about 700 people on the server at any given time. What would a server split accomplish? Either one of the current top guilds could easily (moreover be 100% willing to) lock down all bosses 24/7. Instead of having one of these threads about this server every couple of days, we'll have 2 of them, one for each server. I don't see how it changes anything except halve the population and send it in 2 different directions. Does the fact there will only initially be one guild on top on each server somehow encourage the people wanting a rotation to step up and start socking?

[Lazortag]

I actually disagree with Giegue's assumption that TMO/TR would welcome more 'competition'. ...

Even if you believe that, some TR/TMO members have said the variance should be reduced*, so they can't be that afraid of competition. I don't really have an opinion on the server split idea except that it's kind of radical, and whatever solution we come up with should be easy to implement and likely to be accepted by a large number of people. Obviously a lot of people would be against a server split, whereas not a lot of people would really object to the windows being shortened. It would still be nice to know how long the windows were in classic (if they existed at all - again I've only heard conflicting information on this). If someone had access to that sort of information, that would be a good start.

*(reduced, not removed entirely, just to be clear)

[anthony210]

Doing a server split is a radical idea that I don't think would be healthy for the community. We simply do not have the population for two servers. Maybe at some point in the future we will, but who knows.

Having all the raid bosses have an increased chance of spawning when Trakanon is in window is an interesting idea, one that might be worth testing out for a bit.

[Yinikren]

This is a simple case of only the strongest survive. The raid guilds duke it out with 0 GM intervention, people ragequit and the absolute overabundance of raiding guilds goes down to a manageable level. Simple.

If you cant tell, I'm tired of forcing the people who run this free server to babysit the ~10% of the population who like to ruin it for everyone else.

But seriously, the above is, really, only half in jest. All of these ideas have been thought of/tried before - and someone will find a way to ruin it for everyone.

[Arrisard]

If EQ is soley about a bunch of bros getting together for the satisfaction of slaying dragons - make your own server.

Not trying to come off as a typical "lol if u dont liek it leave" response, however, this is what people ultimately seem to want who "don't want to put up with the drama and have a life but still want to do endgame content". I think that's a fair statement, especially if you're running around espousing that people who say they want competition must not really want competition if they're actually competing or want to split an 800 pop server :rolleyes:

Make whatever you want. Classic, not classic, however challenging you want, without any drama or BS from those pesky other players who aren't playing how you want them to. The files are out there, the stats, everything you could ever need to recreate just about any specific encounters you could ever want. Raid dragons with your bros whenever you feel like it, completely at your discretion. No sitting around stupid camps wasting your life for gear or keys, either.

Oh, wait, you're still here. Say what you want, at some level, even in PVE, this game IS competitive. Take it seriously or don't at all, it's all your choice and that's one of the main points of the game.

Because the truth is, the original Vision was that it did not give a shit about what you want, what you thought was fair, or what you deserved. Want a real classic experience? The original devs outright stated that you are not entitled to see everything and do it all if you weren't willing to put the time in. And even if you put the time in, you still may not get it. That is a "classic EQ experience". Not everyone was going to get to do everything. Sometimes you had to put in a lot of time, sometimes you just had to be lucky, and more often or not you were just shit outta luck.

Feel free to say it's bad design or whatever, but that was the way it was. If you want a "classic experience", there isn't any tap-dancing around it.

Now that isn't to say that stuff like huge mob windows that "force" people to go above and beyond what was originally intended in EQ is ok. Who would have imagined that, though? A non-classic mechanic creating a non-classic experience :eek:

As for the GMs, I said it in another thread. If you want to take the pressure off GMs, you're going to have to make GM intervention ... undesirable. A worse option than working things out than the other guy. Otherwise, so long as it's the "better option" ... guess what? It's always going to be used. Constantly.

[Kruel]

This thread is exactly why games like EQ2 and WOW were so popular to the casual gamer. Hardcore gamers liked EQ1 because of the simple formula.. Time spent = loot.

No instances / no being handfed loot. Simply put.... If you want loot get your butt down to the lair and camp the raid mob. This is the only reason that TR and TMO get mobs, time invested.

[Duie]

This thread is exactly why games like EQ2 and WOW were so popular to the casual gamer. Hardcore gamers liked EQ1 because of the simple formula.. Time spent = loot.

No instances / no being handfed loot. Simply put.... If you want loot get your butt down to the lair and camp the raid mob. This is the only reason that TR and TMO get mobs, time invested.

Time invested ment something completely difrent back then. Everything was new, You did not have Goggle to give you a strat and being the first to figure out anything on EQ accually ment something .
Being in a top Guild ment Days on end of death and wipes to figure out a strat and loosing countless levels in the process . It had nothing to do with logging out at so and so mob to wait for a phone call or going to the local walmart for a week supply of socks.
So if you wanna use this argument about investing time, then new rule. If your camping Trak, You have to be in the layer, Not logged out and Not afk for the duration . disable tracking in the zone and make it teleport you to zone in if you do log for more than 30 minutes or dont move for more than 10 minutes. Do this for a few weeks, then youll understand why rotations made sence for those of us that accually played back in 99.

For someone Who was on tribunals list of many first and spent 6 days a week from 6 till 2 in the morning Raiding(sometimes longer,UGG VP NIGHTMARE, Remeber that one quizy ?) this "time investment" augument on this server is somewhat laughable. But to each there own and i thank all of you for keeping this Thread civil thus far.

[maverixdamighty]

if you want to get the mobs you have to put in the time. it's the way it was on classic. Regardless of perceptions of the top guilds they have structured their guilds in a way to ensure they are getting the mobs that they want. That's how top end EQ was played back in the day...

[Bubbles]

We only have about 700 people on the server at any given time. What would a server split accomplish? Either one of the current top guilds could easily (moreover be 100% willing to) lock down all bosses 24/7. Instead of having one of these threads about this server every couple of days, we'll have 2 of them, one for each server. I don't see how it changes anything except halve the population and send it in 2 different directions. Does the fact there will only initially be one guild on top on each server somehow encourage the people wanting a rotation to step up and start socking?

/giggle.

See, there you have it folks. If given the choice, TMO and TR would run screaming from one another to different servers to 'welcome competition'.

/facepalm.

[Titanuk]

you can all come to red99 and fight for your phat lewts

[Lazortag]

Just to try to steer this away from guild bashing/personal attacks again.. does anyone actually have a problem with shortening the variance? Would a +/-6 hour variance be too little? What about +/-12? I'm not crazy about ideas that don't *feel* classic (like making mobs more likely to spawn when Trak is in window), let's just try to keep things simple, and if it doesn't work out we can try something else or revert it to how it was before.

What about more consistent server repops? I'm not saying patches should happen more often, but when they do (only for content changes, and not emergency patches), I think mobs should always repop, just like in classic. Does anyone object to this?

[Shiftin]

Just to try to steer this away from guild bashing/personal attacks again.. does anyone actually have a problem with shortening the variance? Would a +/-6 hour variance be too little? What about +/-12? I'm not crazy about ideas that don't *feel* classic (like making mobs more likely to spawn when Trak is in window), let's just try to keep things simple, and if it doesn't work out we can try something else or revert it to how it was before.

What about more consistent server repops? I'm not saying patches should happen more often, but when they do (only for content changes, and not emergency patches), I think mobs should always repop, just like in classic. Does anyone object to this?

4 days is way too long, and i'm one of those nutty people that does lots of tracking. +/- 24 for 7 day spawns I would get behind.

I also boggle at every time the server goes down and a repop doesn't happen. It not only isn't classic, every single guild or raider on the server loves it and gets a chance at mobs they might not normally.

edit: VD and Divinity were at Karnors ready to battle royale for Venril on saturday. I would have loved to see one of them get a shot at a mob like that. I'm not going to hand them mobs otherwise on a rotation or anything, but they prioritized and mobilized for the downtime and put in the effort expecting what would have been a classic repop of that mob.

[Kope]

every single guild or raider on the server loves it and gets a chance at mobs they might not normally.

What if there was 1 spawn timer for all Kunark bosses (dragons, trak, VS) and when that timer hit, everything spawned. That'd give the smaller guilds a chance at the mobs while the big guilds can fight over trak and vs.

[Shiftin]

What if there was 1 spawn timer for all Kunark bosses (dragons, trak, VS) and when that timer hit, everything spawned. That'd give the smaller guilds a chance at the mobs while the big guilds can fight over trak and vs.

That's not classic. Despite the weird non-classic raiding things like withholding a raiding zone that should have been opened at Kunark release because the GMs had their feelings hurt, the stated intention here is still to emulate classic as closely as is reasonably possible with a low burden on the server staff.

[Mcbard]

4 days is way too long, and i'm one of those nutty people that does lots of tracking. +/- 24 for 7 day spawns I would get behind.

I also boggle at every time the server goes down and a repop doesn't happen. It not only isn't classic, every single guild or raider on the server loves it and gets a chance at mobs they might not normally.

edit: VD and Divinity were at Karnors ready to battle royale for Venril on saturday. I would have loved to see one of them get a shot at a mob like that. I'm not going to hand them mobs otherwise on a rotation or anything, but they prioritized and mobilized for the downtime and put in the effort expecting what would have been a classic repop of that mob.


I agree with everything Shiftin said. :D I think +/-24 hour variance would be ideal, and server repops to emulate live repops would be fantastic.

[Kope]

That's not classic. Despite the weird non-classic raiding things like withholding a raiding zone that should have been opened at Kunark release because the GMs had their feelings hurt, the stated intention here is still to emulate classic as closely as is reasonably possible with a low burden on the server staff.

The raid mob pops aren't classic now are they? Didn't the devs alter the spawn cycle?

[Lazortag]

The only thing they altered was adding a very long variance on raid mobs. For example, Naggy, Vox, Inny, CT, Faydedar, Talendor, Gore, Sev, VS, and I think Master Yael all have a chance of spawning between 5 and 9 days after they die, so on average they spawn every 7 days. In classic the variance was either much shorter or didn't exist at all - again, I don't know, because I didn't raid back then, but either they were on a static 7 day timer or it was something like 7 days with a 12 hour variance. I still think +/- 24 hours is a bit too long (that's still a two day window for every 7-day mob), but it's a huge improvement and I'd be much happier with that than having no change at all.

I guess 3 day spawns would also have their windows halved?

edit: oh and in further response to Kope I think that any suggestion has to feel classic; the idea of spawning everything at once without a patch doesn't feel classic. It's also a little unfair because it doesn't privilege guilds who have trackers for every mob - if you're tracking Fay and he pops, that's equivalent to tracking VS, all the other outdoor dragons, etc., which means you don't need to have trackers for those bosses.

[Kope]

So if the raid mob timers are not classic now, the argument of "keeping raid mob timers classic" is moot.

Bah it doesn't effect me at all, just frustrated with all the poo flinging on the boards.

[Shiftin]

Some variance, in and of itself, is classic. Anecdotally, I led the Nagafen / Vox raids on tunare for a while in the months leading up to kunark and for a while after on Tunare. We would typically semi-open raid both on patch day night and on weeks we went for a full 7 days without a patch (the exception, but it did happen), we sometimes had to kill the dragons in a different order than the previous week because sometimes nagafen wasn't up yet while vox was (despite killing nagafen first the week previous).

That said, the degree of variance has been extended here to keep guilds from sitting on each others faces waiting for an imminent mob as often as possible. That *concept* was a reasonable solution to reduce GM involvement last summer.

With the 4 outdoor dragons, inny, CT and VS all being 7 days spawns now, and trak always looming, I don't see that being as common a problem as when we only had 4 things to kill last summer. I think it bears a reduction in the variance, at least as a test.

[Autotune]

<---- Still would like to see all other raid mobs (minus vp) that are in window during trak's window have an increased chance to spawn.

IDK how that doesn't benefit everyone.

TMO/TR mains camped in Trak lair... check
Other guilds on the prowl for targets... check


more competition, more incentive, and even TR/TMO benefit in a way.

And no silly rotation crap most of all.

[Kope]

IDK how that doesn't benefit everyone.

TMO/TR mains camped in Trak lair... check
Other guilds on the prowl for targets... check


more competition, more incentive, and even TR/TMO benefit in a way.

And no silly rotation crap most of all.

That's pretty much my main reason for suggesting this. It gives lower guilds a chance to kill raid mobs without taking away the beloved poopsocking :D.

[Lazortag]

<---- Still would like to see all other raid mobs (minus vp) that are in window during trak's window have an increased chance to spawn.

IDK how that doesn't benefit everyone.

TMO/TR mains camped in Trak lair... check
Other guilds on the prowl for targets... check


more competition, more incentive, and even TR/TMO benefit in a way.

And no silly rotation crap most of all.

Reducing the variance approaches classic; your suggestion makes the server feel even more custom, even if everyone were to agree that it's fair.

[Dr4z3r]

Just to try to steer this away from guild bashing/personal attacks again.. does anyone actually have a problem with shortening the variance? Would a +/-6 hour variance be too little? What about +/-12? I'm not crazy about ideas that don't *feel* classic (like making mobs more likely to spawn when Trak is in window), let's just try to keep things simple, and if it doesn't work out we can try something else or revert it to how it was before.

What about more consistent server repops? I'm not saying patches should happen more often, but when they do (only for content changes, and not emergency patches), I think mobs should always repop, just like in classic. Does anyone object to this?

For what little my opinion counts, I think these are both very good ideas. I think +/-12 would be the bare minimum that would be sensible for Trakanon, so I think cutting the windows in half would be a good call.

As to patch-day re-pops, that might be a more complicated issue than we think:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=72319&postcount=42
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=208431&postcount=105
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=211283&postcount=207

However multiple comments by Rogean, Uthgaard, Nilbog, and others in that thread were to the effect of "IB/DA is still going to get to the targets before you," and I think that with the advent of Kunark, and the various full repops that we have seen in these past months, we can be fairly confident that that isn't the #1 concern anymore: there are enough raid targets like VS and Severilous that everyone can get a reasonable shot when every mob comes back up.

[Lazortag]

For what little my opinion counts, I think these are both very good ideas. I think +/-12 would be the bare minimum that would be sensible for Trakanon, so I think cutting the windows in half would be a good call.

As to patch-day re-pops, that might be a more complicated issue than we think:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=72319&postcount=42
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=208431&postcount=105
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=211283&postcount=207

However multiple comments by Rogean, Uthgaard, Nilbog, and others in that thread were to the effect of "IB/DA is still going to get to the targets before you," and I think that with the advent of Kunark, and the various full repops that we have seen in these past months, we can be fairly confident that that isn't the #1 concern anymore: there are enough raid targets like VS and Severilous that everyone can get a reasonable shot when every mob comes back up.

Patch day repops do happen, just very inconsistently. Last patch day had no repops although as Shiftin pointed out, at least four guilds (TMO/TR/VD/Div) prepared for it (since Rogean announced there'd be a patch at 2PM), assuming there would be repops. It's been tested and so far I've seen absolutely no harm come from them, the only problem in my opinion is that they don't happen often enough.

[Spud]

Yes, please. More server re-pops after patches. It's the one time smaller guilds get a chance at many bosses. And is the variance of the boss mob after a server repop necessary? it seems like its just wasting people's time, especially after already waiting around for the server to come back.

I'm all for reducing normal 7 day mob variances too. (is anyone against it?) +/- 24 hours seems reasonable and close to classic.

I guess a rotation is out of the question haha.

[Bubbles]

<---- Still would like to see all other raid mobs (minus vp) that are in window during trak's window have an increased chance to spawn.

IDK how that doesn't benefit everyone.

TMO/TR mains camped in Trak lair... check
Other guilds on the prowl for targets... check


more competition, more incentive, and even TR/TMO benefit in a way.

And no silly rotation crap most of all.

^^
Yes, this would be a good start, although neither top guild gets any 'VP brownie points' for modifying their behavior by exactly 0.

And adding to the current discussion on patches, we could definitely argue that the server not patching every (or every other) week is also decidedly 'unclassic'.

Turning back the clock 10 years there was more dragons/gods popping for exactly that reason : more patches.

It's kind of hard to really *complain* about the fact p99's Devs are more on the ball than Verant was in 1999, but ti's undoubtedly costing the raiding guilds a considerable amount of extra targets per month. :)

[Autotune]

Reducing the variance approaches classic; your suggestion makes the server feel even more custom, even if everyone were to agree that it's fair.

I think we can all agree that the current system is indeed, not classic. Adjusting a non-classic system slightly does not make it less classic or more classic. The current system was put in because the classic system didn't work.



^^
Yes, this would be a good start, although neither top guild gets any 'VP brownie points' for modifying their behavior by exactly 0.

And adding to the current discussion on patches, we could definitely argue that the server not patching every (or every other) week is also decidedly 'unclassic'.

Turning back the clock 10 years there was more dragons/gods popping for exactly that reason : more patches.

It's kind of hard to really *complain* about the fact p99's Devs are more on the ball than Verant was in 1999, but ti's undoubtedly costing the raiding guilds a considerable amount of extra targets per month. :)

I'm not sure exactly what is going on between TR/TMO and Rog/Nil, but i have heard of discussions on how to handle VP. I know our guild has ideas that have been thrown around for awhile on our boards about how to help the server not hurt it, but just like here, not many agree with everyone's ideas.

I can't speak on TR and their motives, but TMO does, if save for some, generally care about what others on p99 think.


I don't think you can satisfy everyone(guild) on p99 and try to stick to the "gotta be super classic" especially when things aren't classic already. Creating more 'What-if's' in the current raid system will do nothing but improve the raiding scene on p99. TR and TMO will both have to be on their toes when camped for trak if the rates were adjusted on other targets and other guilds would be more inclined to participate. TR/TMO get more competition and other guilds get to enjoy more content.

Not only would this help, but a 1-week random full/half server pop would be nice.

[Kika Maslyaka]

The only problem with P99 raiding is not enough raid targets to go around. Blame Verant, who designed initial game with a total of whooping 3 raid encounters.
Of course, in their defense, it needed to be said, that they never anticipated the popularity EQ will reach. By their own words, they projected that EQ will peak at around 40-60k players max, and die out within a year. And they thought that only TINY fraction of players would actually want to raid Dragons and such.

It wasn't until PoP era when there finally were enough raid targets spread through different difficulty levels for all kinds of guilds to attempt.

Once things progress up to Velious/ToV/Sleeper, it will be a bit easier for lower end raid guilds to get their targets in Kunark, but till then...

I sympathize, but there is no universal solutions that will satisfy everyone.

[Bubbles]

I think we can all agree that the current system is indeed, not classic. Adjusting a non-classic system slightly does not make it less classic or more classic. The current system was put in because the classic system didn't work.





I'm not sure exactly what is going on between TR/TMO and Rog/Nil, but i have heard of discussions on how to handle VP. I know our guild has ideas that have been thrown around for awhile on our boards about how to help the server not hurt it, but just like here, not many agree with everyone's ideas.

I can't speak on TR and their motives, but TMO does, if save for some, generally care about what others on p99 think.


I don't think you can satisfy everyone(guild) on p99 and try to stick to the "gotta be super classic" especially when things aren't classic already. Creating more 'What-if's' in the current raid system will do nothing but improve the raiding scene on p99. TR and TMO will both have to be on their toes when camped for trak if the rates were adjusted on other targets and other guilds would be more inclined to participate. TR/TMO get more competition and other guilds get to enjoy more content.

Not only would this help, but a 1-week random full/half server pop would be nice.

I agree with that, for sure. The only thing not classic about p99 is the player base. It's an awful lot of talent and pissants to fit into one single server, yet we manage. :)

And Kika's right, the game wasn't designed with a surplus of high levels in mind.

I advocate things like server splits and instancing mainly because it does what none of these threads do: attacks the problem directly at the head: a huge chunk of the server population is capable of experiencing high level encounters and succeeding, and only a small percentage of that is currently doing so. Would a server split be a band-aid? oh absolutely. Would instancing be a knee-jerk reaction? Of course, but instancing would completely solve the problem. The only thing instancing truly does is devalue the accomplishments and lewtz gained, which... if your self esteem and ego isn't fed directly thru a EQ EMU community, is a welcome trade-off. Hell i miss Kunark Beta, the community on there was great, and everyone worked together and had fun becuase the loot didn't really matter, it was more testing things and exploring and literally trying to get yourself killed in exciting ways. I doubt anyone on live p99 decided to test CLR Wake of Tranquility on the dozen golems sitting outside of Drusella's Room in HS. I swear i thought he got DT'd lool.

It's pretty much to the point that "It's not classic" doesn't even apply because nothing about the raid scene on p99 is really classic. /shrug. Back in 99 most servers at this point had only 1-2 guilds that could even find Trak's Lair in Sebilis with a 2 hour timer and GM god mode turned on.

Just do me a favor and spare the 'competition' argument.

1 . ) TR and TMO are both huge mergers.

2. ) Red 99 is around the corner, that's the real competition outlet.

3. ) If VD merged with Divinity and Taken merged with BDA and Poison merged with Reclamation and Wudan... every member of TR / TMO would not simultaneously drop to their knees praising allah screaming 'THANK GOD FINALLY SOME COMPETITION!"

So lets bag that for now. If you want a nice analogy of the raiding scene, the rest of us are rabbits frolicking in the field, and the merged guilds are the bunnies in cages staring out the laboratory window yelling at us 'LOOK AT ALL THE FREE FOOD WE'RE GETTING!" :)

[Lazortag]

I think we can all agree that the current system is indeed, not classic. Adjusting a non-classic system slightly does not make it less classic or more classic. ...
I don't think you can satisfy everyone(guild) on p99 and try to stick to the "gotta be super classic" especially when things aren't classic already. ...

Actually, you can adjust things to be "more" classic very easily. Classic IS a matter of degree. For example, if every raid mob had a variance of 1 second on Live, and the p99 variance is 100 seconds, then reducing it to 50 seconds is "more classic". Suggesting some complicated script that makes mobs more likely to pop (how do you even do this?*) when Trak is in window is "less classic" than what we have now. Suggesting a reduction in the length of the variance is "more classic" since the variance was smaller in classic. The fact that lots of things aren't classic is certainly not an argument in favor of introducing yet another non-classic system. Like I said, let's just keep things simple.

*The way the variance works, I'm pretty sure it's impossible to do what you're asking. I think whenever a raid mob dies, a random timer between 5 and 9 days (for the 7 day bosses) starts, and when it ends, the boss spawns. It's not as if whenever their window opens, there's a super small probability "p" of the boss spawning, and you can just double that when trak's in window - when the boss spawns is predetermined and it would be very hard to program what you're suggesting in a way that still makes it equiprobable that a boss spawns at any given moment during its window.

[Autotune]

Actually, you can adjust things to be "more" classic very easily. Classic IS a matter of degree. For example, if every raid mob had a variance of 1 second on Live, and the p99 variance is 100 seconds, then reducing it to 50 seconds is "more classic". Suggesting some complicated script that makes mobs more likely to pop (how do you even do this?*) when Trak is in window is "less classic" than what we have now. Suggesting a reduction in the length of the variance is "more classic" since the variance was smaller in classic. The fact that lots of things aren't classic is certainly not an argument in favor of introducing yet another non-classic system. Like I said, let's just keep things simple.

*The way the variance works, I'm pretty sure it's impossible to do what you're asking. I think whenever a raid mob dies, a random timer between 5 and 9 days (for the 7 day bosses) starts, and when it ends, the boss spawns. It's not as if whenever their window opens, there's a super small probability "p" of the boss spawning, and you can just double that when trak's in window - when the boss spawns is predetermined and it would be very hard to program what you're suggesting in a way that still makes it equiprobable that a boss spawns at any given moment during its window.

It all depends on when the system dictates that a target spawns. Does it do it when the mob is killed, when the mob first starts to come into window.

It could be done, as I seriously doubt that it is impossible. I doubt it will every happen though. I actually doubt anything will happen to appease the other guilds on the server (aside from the chance that all VP dragons each have their own variance and no rotation is set-up between TMO/TR)

If there isn't a rotation, and the dragons each have their own variance. The rest of p99 will probably never see any TMO or TR member (due to them just quitting or being stuck in VP forever or getting banned due to shenanigans, be it on purpose or accidental).

[Titanuk]

did u know on red99 u will be able to peeveepee for your mobs

[anthony210]

Going back to the rotation topic.

I understand some servers did not have one, but some did and there is no reason we cannot come to a fair agreement for one here if we work together.

It does not need to be 100% equal for all guilds involved.

Also to add, we may be forced to find some kind of solution to raiding if ANY of us ever want to see VP, unless I understand the patch notes wrong.

[Fountree]

Everyone on here seems to forget that once VP is out, a lot of the other targets are going to open up (slightly maybe?) and there will most likely be less competition for the older content spawns as well. More content stretches guilds thinner in what they can manage. The loot becomes negligible in many cases as well, and the sole point of killing a lot of these mobs becomes just to say you killed them. That gets old quick...at least it did on live. You move on. EQ raiding is a progression...if you can't amass a force to compete at the highest level, then you try your best to get what you can and wait for your time in the sun.

The faster content moves and comes, the healthier the server will be, imo!

[Dr4z3r]

Patch day repops do happen, just very inconsistently. Last patch day had no repops although as Shiftin pointed out, at least four guilds (TMO/TR/VD/Div) prepared for it (since Rogean announced there'd be a patch at 2PM), assuming there would be repops. It's been tested and so far I've seen absolutely no harm come from them, the only problem in my opinion is that they don't happen often enough.

I agree that more patch day re-pops would be a good thing, but what I'm saying is that it's more complicated than everyone just agreeing. Did you read Aeolwind's post? http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=72319&postcount=42

[Shiftin]

I did, and i don't really understand it. What is he talking about exploiting patch day repops (not trolling, it's just not clear)? Uthgaard said at one point that they have to go around and repop each zone individually to make all the mobs come up. But... rogean is already doing the patches, so that doesn't seem like a terribly long process? Maybe 5 more minutes of server lock to #zone sebilis #spawn Trakanon x 8 for all the raid mobs? Could it be done via a server script that they only have to run once?

[Dr4z3r]

I'm similarly at sea here, Shiftin. Rogean did make it clear that downtime for the sole purpose of popping raid mobs is out of the question, though: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=208431&postcount=105

[Lazortag]

I'm not asking for extra patches just to repop mobs, but when patches DO happen, there should be repops. They can just manually choose to do it whenever the server comes back up for a patch. It's not exploitable at all since it would just be for content related patches.

Also, I'll ask again, does anyone actively disagree with shortening the variance (let's say, cutting it in half)? I don't mean, "is there another unrelated suggestion that you prefer", I mean does anyone have any real objection to making the variance shorter?

[Asedo]

It would be nice to see a rotation but it isn't going to happen. If it did the only way i could see it happening is GMs handling the rotation. The only way to get on the rotation would be having to have killed like Trak or some other Kunark dragon before TMO or TR got it killed. Considering that is only the 2 really killin them. Which means why would they want to give people a chance at a dragon when they control all the Dragon Loot. Basically every smaller guild would have to get together and cock block TMO and TR on every dragon kill and force them into a rotation. Which will never happen cause this server is like a bunch little school girls fighting over a boy. So good luck on your efforts but i don't see it happening. So just tough it out, build, and poopsock like no tomorrow and maybe you will get a dragon.

[Titanuk]

well ill have you know, that when red99 opens you can just pvp for your dragons

[Frederik Willem de Klerk]

Hello raiders of Project 1999, I've been asked by the UN (United Norrathians) to help negotiate an end to the raiding crisis on Project 1999. I would like some input from representatives of all raid-capable guilds on the following issues so that we can hopefully build a consensus on what the solution is*:

(If possible, please rank your preferences in order of "most preferred" to "least preferred". If you prefer some options equally, feel free to give them the same rank)

1. The Variance

Should the variance for 7-day spawns...:

(a) ...Be reduced to +/- 6 hours?
(b) ...Be reduced to +/- 12 hours?
(c) ...Stay the same?
(e) ...Be increased? (By how much? Please specify)
(d) Other (please specify)

2. Patch-day Repops

On patch days, when the server comes back up, how should repops be handled?

(a) Repops (of raid mobs) should happen every patch (except for accidental downtime, emergency patches, etc.)
(b) Repops should happen sometimes when the server patches, but not always.
(c) Option (a), but repops should not happen immediately after the server reboots; there should be a variance on repops.
(d) Option (b), but repops should not happen immediately after the server reboots; there should be a variance on repops.
(e) Repops should never happen because of patches.
(f) Other (please specify)

3. The 15-Man Rule

Should the "15-Man Rule"...:

(a) ...Be abolished?
(b) ...Be increased (for example, to the "24-Man Rule")?
(c) Other (please specify)

Feel free to give justifications for your rankings.

*(If you wish to express your preferences anonymously, you have the option of sending me a private message and I will not reveal your answers publicly without your permission).

[Frederik Willem de Klerk]

Bump!