Instrument Mods

[hotstud]

If a song is left running it continues to use the same instrument mod that was equipped when the pulse finished regardless of changing equipment. For example you could start Selos with a drum and then equip weapons instead and it will continue to have drum speed until you stop and restart the song.

Also I just checked and this appears to only happen with a higher instrument mod starting. If I have weapons equipped and I start selos I can equip a drum and I'll run faster on next pulse without restarting song. I can then equip weapons again and it will slow me down on next pulse without restarting.

It's only if you switch to a lower mod after starting the song that it doesn't update.

[Lazortag]

If a song is left running it continues to use the same instrument mod that was equipped when the pulse finished regardless of changing equipment. For example you could start Selos with a drum and then equip weapons instead and it will continue to have drum speed until you stop and restart the song.

Also I just checked and this appears to only happen with a higher instrument mod starting. If I have weapons equipped and I start selos I can equip a drum and I'll run faster on next pulse without restarting song. I can then equip weapons again and it will slow me down on next pulse without restarting.

It's only if you switch to a lower mod after starting the song that it doesn't update.

This is working as intended I thought?

[hotstud]

This is working as intended I thought?

No, if you remove your drum while singing Selos the next pulse is supposed to be singing but it's still percussion. Each pulse should be checking what your mod is and with no drum you automatically sing. This works if you're singing, song pulses, you equip drum, song pulses, you remove drum, song pulses. You would be slower, faster, slower. That's how it works right now. If you equip the drum first though it never gets slower until you restart song.

[Lazortag]

No, if you remove your drum while singing Selos the next pulse is supposed to be singing but it's still percussion. Each pulse should be checking what your mod is and with no drum you automatically sing. This works if you're singing, song pulses, you equip drum, song pulses, you remove drum, song pulses. You would be slower, faster, slower. That's how it works right now. If you equip the drum first though it never gets slower until you restart song.

I'm aware of how it works right now (I play a 60 bard) but I always thought that was intended. It's been like this since I joined the server. Are you able to confirm that it worked the way you said it did on Live?

[hotstud]

I'm aware of how it works right now (I play a 60 bard) but I always thought that was intended. It's been like this since I joined the server. Are you able to confirm that it worked the way you said it did on Live?

I don't really care enough to confirm it, just reporting something weird. Doesn't it seem off to you that equipping from no mod, to mod, to no mod results in the same effect in the songs but going from mod, to no mod, to whatever always uses the mod?

[Rais]

It changes for Damage over time, and direct damage. I never noticed with selos tho.

[Lazortag]

It changes for Damage over time, and direct damage. I never noticed with selos tho.

It actually doesn't change for dot's.

[Rais]

When I use my horn for Denon's Disruptive Discord, it increases it. When I take it off to switch my lute for Chords of Dissonance, Denon's DoT damage goes down.

Tell me what I'm missing here.

[Lazortag]

When I use my horn for Denon's Disruptive Discord, it increases it. When I take it off to switch my lute for Chords of Dissonance, Denon's DoT damage goes down.

Tell me what I'm missing here.

How you describe it is definitely not how it's functioning, otherwise it would be impossible to have 2 dots going at once for full damage if they have different modifiers. Just today I had six dots going at once, with at least one brass, one stringed, and one percussion, doing full (modified) damage.

As for whether the modifier changes if you let the song passively play after you switch to a different instrument, this is also not how it's functioning (I checked just now to make sure).

As for direct damage, the only direct damage song I can think of that's modified by an instrument (currently) in the game is Song of Midnight, and I haven't tested to see if this functions the way the other songs do.

edit: we're talking about how it works on p99 right? Or do you know if it functioned differently on Live?

[Arrisard]

Have the instrument equipped on initial cast completion = mod will last full duration of the spell no matter what you have equipped or switch to another song. This will continue on passively, as well. Please note that the timing of this is very specific, the check is made when the song actually finishes casting - not when you first start to cast, or while it's casting - ie, removing the instrument before the song lands will not have the same effect.

If you do not have an instrument mod equipped when the initial casting is finished, any equipping of mods will only mod at the time they are equipped. You can even equip/unequip between ticks, and it will not mod the next tick.

So, depending on when the instrument is equipped, it can work out differently.

This also effectively explains OP's thing with Selo's. "It doesn't seem right" or "doesn't make sense" isn't a lot to go on, I can name a *lot* of stuff that isn't reasonable or logical but it's still classic.

[hotstud]

I'm saying that you can leave a song going, passively, and remove your modifier and it will continue to be modified regardless of what you equip on the next pulse. You could start Hymn with a lute equipped for the first pulse and then switch to your weapons and you'll have lute modded regen while you melee with your weapons out. There is no way that is classic. Every pulse of a song is supposed to check your currently equipped modifier. You really think the way it worked originally is that somehow, magically, your Bard was playing a Lute while it was in his bag and hes holding two swords? No, every song pulse checks your current mod and you would be singing if you removed your modifier.

This is supported further by the fact that this is exactly how it works if you start singing a song, then equip a mod for the next pulse, then go back to signing. Every single pulse of the sing checks your current modifier. It's only if you start with an instrument mod and then try to switch to singing on next pulse that it continues using the modifier.

One or the other of these two situations is bugged obviously. Either the first modifier used when a song starts or the highest modifier is used regardless of equipment changes (first situation) or every pulse of a song even when the song is running passively checks your currently equipped modifier (second situation). Currently both of those outcomes are possible depending on if you started the song singing or with an instrument.

[Lazortag]

There is no way that is classic.

Why?

Every pulse of a song is supposed to check your currently equipped modifier.

Again, why?

No, every song pulse checks your current mod and you would be singing if you removed your modifier.

What makes you think this apart from "common sense"? You need to show how it was in classic using evidence (like everlore archives, or even showing how it works on eqmac would probably be enough)


This is supported further by the fact that this is exactly how it works if you start singing a song, then equip a mod for the next pulse, then go back to signing. Every single pulse of the sing checks your current modifier. It's only if you start with an instrument mod and then try to switch to singing on next pulse that it continues using the modifier.

One or the other of these two situations is bugged obviously. Either the first modifier used when a song starts or the highest modifier is used regardless of equipment changes (first situation) or every pulse of a song even when the song is running passively checks your currently equipped modifier (second situation). Currently both of those outcomes are possible depending on if you started the song singing or with an instrument.

Right, this is just evidence (but not proof) that one of these situations is bugged, not necessarily that the former is the one that's bugged. You need more evidence.

[Arrisard]

I'm saying that you can leave a song going, passively, and remove your modifier and it will continue to be modified regardless of what you equip on the next pulse. You could start Hymn with a lute equipped for the first pulse and then switch to your weapons and you'll have lute modded regen while you melee with your weapons out

I know what you're saying, because I said it in my previous post.

There is no way that is classic. Every pulse of a song is supposed to check your currently equipped modifier. You really think the way it worked originally is that somehow, magically, your Bard was playing a Lute while it was in his bag and hes holding two swords? No, every song pulse checks your current mod and you would be singing if you removed your modifier.

Yes, I do think that's how it worked. If it worked the way you think it should work, then there would be absolutely no reason to actually twist instruments, now would there? All those bards juggling all those instruments for years with almost no point to it. Instead, it was common practice in order to maintain peak efficiency. (The "how do you think this works, magic?!" kinda loses its meaning in a game with ... magic :p)

"Now, it is also possible to twist instruments. Most people freak out at the concept of this at first, but it’s really not as tough as it sounds (although there are varying degrees). For the most part, this means starting a song with an instrument equipped, waiting for the text message, starting the next song, switching the instruments before the next text message, and repeating."

From EQDiva circa 2003-ish.

"Juggling
Before doing anything else with juggling, go set the command /fastdrop never. Otherwise, you will discover how many weapons and instruments you can leave scattered across West Karana.

Bards need to juggle both weapons and instruments to be at their peak. This can be tricky, but by hot keying you can manage easily enough. To juggle your instruments, the basics are:

Two Instruments
I sometimes use this to play Selos (run fast) and Hymn of Restoration (regen.) while running. I also use it for many other situations, but this makes a good, low-level example:

1. Equip the your drum in your secondary melee slot. (melee number 2).

2. Play Selos Accelerando.

3. Pick up the your mandolin in your cursor.

4. Hover it over the melee slot.

5. When Selos pulses Your feet move faster. stop Selos and start Hymn.

6. Click on the melee slot. Your instruments should switch places.

7. When Hymn pulses Your wounds begin to heal. stop Hymn and restart Selos

8. Click on the melee slot to switch your instruments again.

9. Repeat."

From Concert Hall.

Again, just because something "doesn't make sense" does not automatically mean it isn't classic EverQuest. Anyone who has played this game half awake for even a few hours could probably come up with a laundry list of mechanics that "don't make sense". So just going on that is, well, pretty worthless.

[Rais]

Every pulse of a song is supposed to check your currently equipped modifier.
Again, why?


Because the only thing that allowed this was the Bard Epic. That is why it was EPIC. It had the modifier of all, while allowing to melee.

I don't know much about bards from live. I only know how their buffs/clicks/debuffs would stack with others along the same spell line. They don't on p99.

I also can only tell you from when playing my bard. If I remove my brass horn, my dot on the next tick is less, than when it was equipped. One person is saying that's not the case, but I see it. The other person is saying it happens, but its not classic. This I agree in part with, but I don't see my mods effecting my dot without the horn on after activating the dot.

My bard is only level 33 and I see this. Maybe it changes at some level and you all don't see this. Weirder things have happened on this server.

[Arrisard]

"Because the only thing that allowed this was the Bard Epic."

Just because the bard epic had mods for all instruments + singing, does not mean that the classic mechanic for instrument juggling didn't exist. You could just as easily say that the epic was epic because 1. you didn't really have juggle anymore, and 2. singing mod, which was not obtainable ingame anywhere else. I vividly remember these two points of why the epic was so important for the bard.

I've already given excerpts from guides from that era that clearly state juggling instruments on this server is working as intended or at least very close to.

Since all the songs tick at the same time, and obviously you could only have one instrument equipped at a time, then only one song would get modded. Why even bother changing them out when you cast it then? This was standard practice for any bard that didn't suck/was lazy.

If it didn't work in this fashion, then literally thousands of bards were doing it for absolutely zero benefit for years when it would have been EASILY observable that it was a waste of time and effort.

That, to me, makes even less sense.

As far as how it' working on this server, I'm uploading the video's to Youtube right now, but it's gonna take a while. I'm not going to do each individual song, I've already tried almost of them, and they all act the same way. Guard Reskin was kind enough to volunteer.

Instrument equipped when song FINISHES INITIAL CASTING (not when you start casting, not when the song first ticks - the only thing that matters is when the instant when the casting bar timer runs out. If you miss that moment, the below situation applies in the next paragraph) = full mod forever more, until you stop singing that song for whatever reason. However, even if you stop casting and sing something else, the 2nd and 3rd ticks will still carry the full mod until the song runs out.

If no mod is equipped when the song FINISHES IT'S INITIAL CASTING = mods will only check on active ticks for that tick.

Again, if it the mod didn't hold from the initial casting, juggling instruments would be completely pointless, the guides on the wayback machine to which I quoted are completely wrong, and everyone was wrong about what was quite easy to see right in front of them for years.

If there is other EVIDENCE to the contrary of how the mechanics worked, post it. Not "but that doesn't make sense!". That isn't evidence, that's an opinion.

[Rais]

"Because the only thing that allowed this was the Bard Epic."

Just because the bard epic had mods for all instruments + singing, does not mean that the classic mechanic for instrument juggling didn't exist. You could just as easily say that the epic was epic because 1. you didn't really have juggle anymore, and 2. singing mod, which was not obtainable ingame anywhere else. I vividly remember these two points of why the epic was so important for the bard.



You and I are on the same page. I'm not saying you're not suppose to be able to juggle them. I'm just saying Epics made it so you didn't have to anymore and it made that Epic all in its own. And the need of juggling the instruments was needed to get the mods on each song.

[Arrisard]

Oh, I misinterpreted why you were quoting him as agreeing with the first quote, it's late :p

If the mod thing is really working differently for different bards, though, that would be really weird, heh.

[Uthgaard]

It should only perform a new check on your modifiers if you persistently cast it (leaving a song on, effectively casting it again, refreshing the duration). Not for the passively remaining ticks of a song already cast.

[Lazortag]

It should only perform a new check on your modifiers if you persistently cast it (leaving a song on, effectively casting it again, refreshing the duration). Not for the passively remaining ticks of a song already cast.

Oh, then the current functionality is wrong (it takes whatever modifier you used on the first cast, even if you have it persistently cast with a different instrument). Thanks uthgaard.

[hotstud]

I can see that almost everyone posting here has a different understanding of the situation except Lazor. I'll try to make it more straightforward...

You can start singing Selos with a drum equipped. After the song starts you can remove your drum and equip whatever you want and you'll still run at Selos drum speed until you restart the song. Even if it runs for 5 hours and you only equip a drum for the first pulse it will be drum modified the entire time.

[Arrisard]

I can see that almost everyone posting here has a different understanding of the situation except Lazor. I'll try to make it more straightforward...

You can start singing Selos with a drum equipped. After the song starts you can remove your drum and equip whatever you want and you'll still run at Selos drum speed until you restart the song. Even if it runs for 5 hours and you only equip a drum for the first pulse it will be drum modified the entire time.

I understood you perfectly when I said exactly the same thinger:

"Have the instrument equipped on initial cast completion = mod will last full duration of the spell no matter what you have equipped or switch to another song. This will continue on passively, as well."

It's when you say that the mod should be checked every pulse that I do not agree with. This would completely kill the juggling mechanic that has always been classic.

Basically, I agree with Uthgaard. Mod should be checked when cast, not the remaining pulses unless otherwise recast actively or passively. If it checked every pulse, there would be no juggling.

[hotstud]

Mod should be checked when cast, not the remaining pulses unless otherwise recast actively or passively..

Do you understand that isn't what is happening? THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE TWISTING INSTRUMENTS, IT INVOLVES LEAVING A SINGLE SONG RUNNING PASSIVELY WHILE CHANGING INSTRUMENTS. When the song is recast passively it doesn't update the modifier. I really don't know how many times I have to restate this..

Start Selos...
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. + mod

That is broken or..

Start Selos...
No drum.
You run faster. - mod
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. - mod



This is broken. There's no fucking way both of these are supposed to be how it works. One or the other is incorrect because they both involve the exact same mechanic but behave different depending on what you had equipped first.

IMO the second is how it's supposed to work AND that is how it works currently. It's only broken if you start with the drum as shown above. I understand that if you pulse Selos once with a drum it uses the mod until the song is recast. I'm talking about leaving the song running without a drum does not update the modifier to singing.

Sorry if I sound condescending, I'm just trying to clarify the issue because I understand it's difficult to understand what exactly is meant.

If you want to test this for yourself just start a song with an instrument equipped, leave the song running, and unequip your instrument. It can be DoTs, Selos, whatever you want. It will continue to use the instrument mod as long as you don't restart the song.

[Arrisard]

I'm gonna come back to this after dinner, bug forum isn't the place for it.

[Arrisard]

THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE TWISTING INSTRUMENTS, IT INVOLVES LEAVING A SINGLE SONG RUNNING PASSIVELY WHILE CHANGING INSTRUMENTS.

I know. How do I know? This means the same thing as this:

"Have the instrument equipped on initial cast completion = mod will last full duration of the spell no matter what you have equipped or switch to another song. This will continue on passively, as well."

I do not understand how you can think what you and I both said do not mean the very same thing.

*********

Start Selos...
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. + mod

I know, because these words mean the same thing:

Instrument equipped when song FINISHES INITIAL CASTING (not when you start casting, not when the song first ticks - the only thing that matters is when the instant when the casting bar timer runs out. If you miss that moment, the below situation applies in the next paragraph) = full mod forever more, until you stop singing that song for whatever reason. However, even if you stop casting and sing something else, the 2nd and 3rd ticks will still carry the full mod until the song runs out.

*********

Start Selos...
No drum.
You run faster. - mod
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. - mod

I know, because these words mean the same thing:

If no mod is equipped when the song FINISHES IT'S INITIAL CASTING = mods will only check on active ticks for that tick.

*********

When the song is recast passively it doesn't update the modifier.

I know, and that is not how it should be working but currently is. I have been saying that: "Mod should be checked when cast, not the remaining pulses unless otherwise recast actively or passively."

That is literally the same thing what Uthgaard said:

It should only perform a new check on your modifiers if you persistently cast it (leaving a song on, effectively casting it again, refreshing the duration). Not for the passively remaining ticks of a song already cast.

This is what I've been saying. It should not check every pulse, only when cast/recast. If it checked every pulse, it would eliminate the viability of juggling entirely.

*********

Those are not the problem, this is:

THIS DOES NOT INVOLVE TWISTING INSTRUMENTS

That would be true, if you had not originally stated:

Every pulse of a song is supposed to check your currently equipped modifier.

If the song checked for an in-hand mod every tick after you STOPPED passively recasting, then it most certainly does affect instrument juggling.

A song is cast when you click the gem and you get the spell bar for 3 seconds and it finishes. And then the song is passively recast every 6 seconds thereafter if left untouched (soandso's feet begin to move faster, or whatever). These casts should have a mod check.

If you stop casting, the remaining 3-4 ticks the song buff should not be checked since they are not being actively cast or passively recast, it is simply the song running it's course until it wears off. Because cast= check, pulse=no check. Pulses and passive recasts serve on the same server tick but they are not the same thing. If there was a check every pulse, there would be no juggling. I'd call that affecting juggling.

[Uthgaard]

To clarify
This is broken
Start Selos...
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. + mod


This is not
Start Selos...
No drum.
You run faster. - mod
Equip drum.
You run faster. + mod
Unequip drum.
You run faster. - mod

Whether you manually click the button again or leave it to refresh itself, that is an identical form of recasting. A song already ticking away at its 3 ticks does not give a shit if you changed your equipment. A song refreshing its duration does.

[Arrisard]

A song already ticking away at its 3 ticks does not give a shit if you changed your equipment. A song refreshing its duration does.

^

if it did care, juggling would have no point.

[Uthgaard]

How you feel about it, including your inability or unwillingness to comprehend the topic, has little bearing on its accuracy.

[Arrisard]

I was agreeing with you. I haven't not agreed with anything you have said so far. The only time a song should check it's mod is when it is cast, actively or passively.