Why Classic EQ is still the best online RPG (and how P1999 could make it even better)

[Noudess]

To really understand why classic EQ is/was so successful and such a joy to play, you must first understand what it is based on/evolved from.

The first modern, widespread RPG was the pen and paper Dungeons & Dragons. For those that never played, a quick review is in order. D&D players would create a character using a set of rules put forth by the players guide. This was usually dont on the honor system, but sometimes initial stats were randomly rolled by the Dungeon Master (DM) or what is now commonly referred to as the Game Master (GM). This usually consisted of rolling some # of dice (something like 4d6 or 4 six sided dice) and dropping the low one for each stat. Depending on DM, these could be arranged anyway the player wanted, or taken in the order the stats were rolled. These stats created a base character, which then led to valid choices for race/class. You needed certain minimum stats to be a Paladin for example. So, your random rolls had a lot to do with what you'd be playing. The idea here was to give the player a unique character to role play.

Many GMs allowed creation of characters at varying levels, while others started all they players at level 1, and created higher and higher "modules" for these characters to explore.

The GM/DM often worked within a world, either a world of their own creation, based on literally months of work, or on a published world, such as Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.

The adventures were tuned to be a challenge to a group of 3-8 adventures of a certain level range. This was to ensure that the module was a challenge, but not a pushover or too hard. Death was often final, or at the very least a substantial loss of XP.

The GM/DM, based on how the party and/or each character performed. granted XP for various acts, completions and monsters killed. XP penalties were applied, when a lawful/good character, for example, committed an evil act. Bonuses were granted when a particular cunning strategy was used to conuer an enemy, or for excellent role playing.

Regardless of all that, the game presented endless possibilities. A world limited only by the imagination of the GM and the enthusiasm of the players. I recall myself spending days working on character development.

When Everquest was first released, it was a dream for D&D players, and fantasy Rpers in general. A massive world, detailed, detailed, detailed. This was a way to play every day, without the need of a local DM/GM, or having to find freinds to play with. Better yet, EQ was created as an RPG - not a shoot em up or video arcade game. It enabled full role playing, along with all the staples of D&D: dungeons, xp, races, classes, gear, etc. Emotes allowed the animations to interact graphically. EQ gave us a wonderful visual world, that mimicked a real world in detail.

Character interactions were essential. Classes needed one another. Bonuses applied to grouping which created wonderful teamwork and strategy. Class skills beautifully complemented each other, be is melee, crowd control, healing, etc.

Finally, a game for a PC that did RPGs justice.

But then, as the popularity grew, and the passion of the developers for a superb world was overcome by real life greed for more profits, EQ started to lose some of its greatness. It was beginning to morph into a single person video game, as the original vision was lost.

Expansions started to give characters items/benefits for buying en expansion.

One of the fundamental precepts of an RPG is the separation of player and character. The character is an entity in his/her own world. He/she should be on the same footing as any other character. Items granted because the player buys an expansion is not in the spirit of an RPG, rather it corrupts it. This led to endless corruptions, more bank space for money, mounts for money, etc.

Instaports everytwhere

The original world was well thought out. Each class had its unique purpose and abilities. The portals, starting with a small compromise (Luclin portals) ended with Planes of Power which made travel trivial. This essentially destroyed the druid/wizard porting aspect, killing interaction even more. Not to mention completely destroying the cities that used to thrive, replacing the all with one large plane of people with culture any longer.

Levels above 60


EQ didnt need levels above 60. Gear got ridiculous. Stats got insane. The whole point of the game was lost. In pen and Paper, we'd just adventure in a new module, enjoying the content with out characters once they reached max level. Adding higher levels destroyed the world balance. I do believe that AA points were a great idea.. giving us something to strive for, but in a realistic world, there must exist a ceiling. You don't tale all characters above the Gods.

We play for the joy of teh game. A new level 1 character in D&D is just as much fun. A new character to develop. Storylines for their past, their personality, etc. And GMs constantly has new modules for us to adventure in - within then world level limits.

Many many other changes exist, as we all know, that destroyed with disregard the original passion and detail that went into Norrath.

And what's funny, is many people didn't realize that all the things that made Norrath like a real world - death, travel, trade skills requiring real effort, all the things they kept complaining about, and getting changed, were the very reasons classic EQ was and is special. It gives us a challenge. It gives us reward. it gives us a realistic environment. We skill up as we DO things. The world was logical, despite being magical. And yet, the player base and greedy Sony corrupted it for money. And now, what is left? A pile of junk over on live.

So... where am I going with this? Well, one, I wanted to post just how much I love classic EQ. And I wanted to share background of where EQ came from, for those that started online, and never knew pen and paper games. For those that perhaps didn't know the origins of things like:

XP - points given for an accomplishment - to a character - not a player - for playing well, defeating a foe, acting in alignment etc.

faction - This isnt just a # that is used to get you a quest.. Faction is how a part of the fantasy society views you. Gaining faction only to betray then is commended it you're evil or chaotic in alignment, but a Lawful or Good character would never do this.

player vs character - Characters are roles you play. If you play multiple characters, they are each their own entity inside the game. They are not all tools to make a player powerful. In Pen and Paper days, your characters did not even know each other existed often.

I also wanted to discuss how P1999 can make Classic EQ even better. This section will probably be flamed, and I guess so be it. So long as you ponder the points from a viewpoint of how the game was intended - where it came from - and frankly why classic EQ is the nest game available. While some of the things below may make YOU less powerful, they make the game a more true representation of a real world that we all get to enjoy forever.

Ok, so what is in classic EQ that is being corrupted today? Or misused? This is stuff I fell violates the intent of the original developers. And I agree with their vision. Some I'm suggesting the server GM fixes, others I am asking players to look at themselves and decide.

XP.


Experience Points. Read those two words. Experience is granted for doing something well, killing an enemy, completing a quest. In EQ, some dungeons grant extra XP. Why? Not because the developers wanted people leveling faster! They grant more XP because a dungeon is a higher risk so there is greater reward. This is being abused badly on P1999. More than half of the people you find in unrest, MM, the other bonus zones have zero risk. They bring a level 60 and they confuse the game into thinking the low level characters made the kill.

Call it what you want... Its abuse of a piece of software that is trying to grant extre reward for extra risk.

Come on people, we have 650+ people online now on P1999 most days. We can have lively of-level groups in tehse zones, like the old days. However, many people, steer clear of these zones now, because how much fun, or immersive is it to see all of unrest including the ghost dragged to the zone line to PL someone?

This is why I propose an XP code change to grant zero experience for mobs 2x your level or more. Hardly a PLing killer, but a little incentive to not get ridiculous. Whether you love Pling, or hate it, It's pretty obvious the XP bonuses are there to reward teamwork of an of-level group - not to get your new level 8 cleric to 20 in a day.

Twinking


I'm not going to propose any changes here. Except by players themselves. I don't think, and I never will. Each of my characters is unique, they're not an extension of my penis, pardon the analogy. They are living , breathing , members of Norrath with personality and background. I believe we just cheapen our Experience by giving them level 40 gear and ignoring the what, dozens of zones we could be grouping in, improving teamwork skills, etc.

That said, its your game, your character, your experience. Nonetheless, if you are at all curious, try playing your next alt like he was your only character. I think you'd be surprised at how much fun it is to be challenged and to actually use that drop you just got instead of mocking it as vendor fodder because your level 60 gave you better, even though he's a troll and you're a wood elf :P

Recharging via vendor


LOL.* I can hear all the l33t people screaming already. What, I can't recharge my leatherfoot helm?

Listen. Do you think the GMs meant for this? Think that the stacking bug on a merchant is intentional?

Hell guys, I've done it. And it makes me feel dirty.

I'd much rather the GMs fixed this bug.. It doesn't even bother me if they create an NPC that specializes in recharging for a fee. At least that would be immersive and in game RP. Taking advantage of this bug is just cheesy and it's a staple on P1999.

MQing


Honestly.*I'm on the fence on this one. I see many instance where this falls into perfect RP. But, I'm sure the devs made the items no drop for this very reason. They didn't want Jboots in the hands of your level 2 warrior.

I'd be happy if they made it not work, but honestly, this falls into the same bucket as twinking. If you MQ, you're making a decision about how you want to experience the game. Earn everything for yourself with each character, or take shortcuts. Personally, as painful as it is to be Sowless, I'll take 35 levels of it for the joy of getting teh jboots with my own two hands once I earn it.

Sorry for the long winded post. I'm dreading the flames, the name calling and the other trolling in general, but do what you must do. My points all have solid basis and its for you all to decide how you feel. I just wanted to take the time to write this, because P1999 is as close to the classic EQ as I've ever seen, and I have to believe its popularity speaks volumes for the original developers vision, that I am trying to uphold.

If you made it this far - 1000 xp granted, unless of course you used someone else that reads faster, or made someone else read 60% of the article for you, in which case you deserve 0 xp.

[Elements]

Sounds like you have some interesting ideas for your own server. Better get to work.

[Itap]

Power-leveling existed in classic EQ. Check

MQing items existed in classic EQ. Check

Recharging items existed in classic EQ. Check

Twinking existed in classic EQ. Check

I see your points, and agree with some of them, but this server was created to mimic a classic era EverQuest. Removing or altering the above listed would be interfering with the devs intentions of creating a classic server.

Determining what or whats not fun is subjective. People loved EverQuest for many reasons, not just the reasons you listed.

[Noudess]

Power-leveling existed in classic EQ. Check

MQing items existed in classic EQ. Check

Recharging items existed in classic EQ. Check

Twinking existed in classic EQ. Check



I never said they didn't exist in EQ Classic.

It is obvious that all 4 were not intended by EQclassic developers.

Pling - They made it so if any party member was too high, you got no XP. Obviously PLing techniques are an exploit of that concept.

MQing - They made the items no drop in an attempt to prevent this. MQing is the exploit around this,

Recharging items - Obviously a bug.

Twinking - They didnt create a way to share between characters. You had to drop it or trust someone.

What I was saying is that classic EQ obviosuly did not intend any of these to exist. And I believe they were wise in all 4 cases. The fact that people depend on them now isnt true to EQ classic goals.

Now, if P1999 GMs disagree - long live P1999, I was just noting ways I think the player base, and the Gms could be more true to EQ classic INTENT - not the obvious exploits/bugs. Just because a bug existed - you want it etched in stone? Want them to not fix bugs from classic either?

[quido]

the fuk u just say 2 me?

[Itap]

I never said they didn't exist in EQ Classic.

Yes, but you're suggesting the removal/altering of these things, which is not classic.

This post has been made a dozen times, and it always ends up being the same argument. People want a classic EQ server, yet customized in their own way.

As stated above, better get started.

[Elements]

I would just like to point out the EQ is based largely on the hobbit/LotR and that bilbo twinked frodo with mithil anda badass sword. Also aragorn powerlevelled the hobbits.

/thread

[Noudess]

I would just like to point out the EQ is based largely on the hobbit/LotR and that bilbo twinked frodo with mithil anda badass sword. Also aragorn powerlevelled the hobbits.

/thread

Bilbo was related to frodo :)

You're troll should be eating your halfling, not twinking him ;P)

[Estu]

I liked a lot of what you said (especially before you got to the suggestions), but I also like this:

Determining what or whats not fun is subjective. People loved EverQuest for many reasons, not just the reasons you listed.

Some of your complaints are more valid than others. Yes, PLing can shut down a zone and prevent regular groups from EXPing there, and that's sad. But if someone is being PLed and it isn't to the detriment of others, or if they twink themselves using their main, think about this person's play history - how did they get the money for the gear, or for the PL? They started from scratch and slowly worked their way up just like everyone else (unless of course a friend helped them out in a huge way).

The grind from 1 to 60 starting with nothing is an adventure, but it is a very long adventure and a lot of people don't want to repeat it with every other character they play, so they choose to speed it up with twinking or PLing. Twinking a character and leveling that character is fun in a completely different way than leveling a character from nothing, and offers a different (and still challenging, since you are taking on harder targets) experience that's enjoyable in its own way - you're thinking about some very interesting questions regarding what gear to put on the new character and why, where to get that gear, how to spend the money you have effectively, et cetera; and then you get to play this character, a superman of your own design, and take down more difficult mobs and camps than you could otherwise. And unlike PLing, twinking your character helps the people around you, assuming you're not a snob about who you group with. No, it doesn't necessarily make sense from the roleplaying perspective, but few people play EQ as serious roleplayers, though they might enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with the challenge and arduousness of the game, and they might enjoy the large world and atmosphere.

[Noudess]

Yes, but you're suggesting the removal/altering of these things, which is not classic.

This post has been made a dozen times, and it always ends up being the same argument. People want a classic EQ server, yet customized in their own way.

As stated above, better get started.

So bottom line, what do the GMs want here? Classic or Classic Intent by devs?

Also, you guys want this stuff, do you also want all bugs present in classic, or just the ones you can take advantage of?

[Noudess]

I liked a lot of what you said (especially before you got to the suggestions), but I also like this:



Some of your complaints are more valid than others. Yes, PLing can shut down a zone and prevent regular groups from EXPing there, and that's sad. But if someone is being PLed and it isn't to the detriment of others, or if they twink themselves using their main, think about this person's play history - how did they get the money for the gear, or for the PL? They started from scratch and slowly worked their way up just like everyone else (unless of course a friend helped them out in a huge way).

The grind from 1 to 60 starting with nothing is an adventure, but it is a very long adventure and a lot of people don't want to repeat it with every other character they play, so they choose to speed it up with twinking or PLing. Twinking a character and leveling that character is fun in a completely different way than leveling a character from nothing, and offers a different (and still challenging, since you are taking on harder targets) experience that's enjoyable in its own way - you're thinking about some very interesting questions regarding what gear to put on the new character and why, where to get that gear, how to spend the money you have effectively, et cetera; and then you get to play this character, a superman of your own design, and take down more difficult mobs and camps than you could otherwise. And unlike PLing, twinking your character helps the people around you, assuming you're not a snob about who you group with. No, it doesn't necessarily make sense from the roleplaying perspective, but few people play EQ as serious roleplayers, though they might enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with the challenge and arduousness of the game, and they might enjoy the large world and atmosphere.

Well said.

I do think your first point still fails to separate player from character, which I feel is key to an RPG.

As to the second, that's why I didnt recommend any changes to twinking and only the 2x level Xp mod as far as Pling. Both reasonable and the 2x level xp mod would only affect those trying to claim a whole zone for their level 12 while making a mockery of the genre.

[Raavak]

The thing is, you still have the freedom here on P99, to make it how you wish. You don't need the GM's to hardcode it. Just get a group of like-minded people together and play by these rules yourself. Check into the Role-Playing guild someone is trying to start.

[eqravenprince]

Ideally if there is custom content, it should be discussed thoroughly and voted on. I do like your passion though.

[eqravenprince]

So bottom line, what do the GMs want here? Classic or Classic Intent by devs?


How would they know what the classic intent by the devs would be? Your guess is as good as mine.

[Noudess]

Ideally if there is custom content, it should be discussed thoroughly and voted on. I do like your passion though.

I guess I'd say we can all discuss and vote, but the decision lies in the hands of the great people who set this server up. I bow to whatever they decide.

Thanks about the passion comment. I love EQ - this old style. It literally broke my heart when they ruined it. I love it here, but I do think some players make a mockery of a great game with their words and actions.

[Cippofra]

The obsession with role playing confuses me sometimes. Some people love it, I get that. But for people to think everyone should be in character all the time is just silly. Do I occasionally make comments or jokes that are technically role playing? Sure. But that's as far as it goes. My best memories in this game are from socializing with people. Not ogres and wood elves, but other people that share a common interest. The fact that EQ is classified as a role playing game doesn't mean you need to pretend you're an ogre. When I play final fantasy I don't pretend I'm cloud or lightning. I just play.

Also, on the subject of twinking, the most fun I have had in this game is by far the end game content. My first character was a level 32 bard with over 365 days played. At level 32 I was lucky when I got an electrum bladed wakizashi. I had done more traveling, exploring, and dying than I had grinding. It was fun, once. Once and only once. Had no reason to see anything between levels 1-32 after that character. I enjoyed getting to level 46 with a twinked monk in less than a week immensely. You know the game already, you know where to go. You see things from a completely new perspective, and you can progress without having to dedicate 50% of your life to it. I wouldn't support it here because the player base is too small, but if EQ live in the velious era had an option to let you start out any class at all from lets say...level 45 as long as you had a level 60 main I would have definitely supported it. I think a 2x exp modifier would be a good idea here though. Despite popular belief, I simply do not learn anything new from killing my 1000th sand scarab.

[Noudess]

The obsession with role playing confuses me sometimes. Some people love it, I get that. But for people to think everyone should be in character all the time is just silly. Do I occasionally make comments or jokes that are technically role playing? Sure. But that's as far as it goes. My best memories in this game are from socializing with people. Not ogres and wood elves, but other people that share a common interest. The fact that EQ is classified as a role playing game doesn't mean you need to pretend you're an ogre. When I play final fantasy I don't pretend I'm cloud or lightning. I just play.

Also, on the subject of twinking, the most fun I have had in this game is by far the end game content. My first character was a level 32 bard with over 365 days played. At level 32 I was lucky when I got an electrum bladed wakizashi. I had done more traveling, exploring, and dying than I had grinding. It was fun, once. Once and only once. Had no reason to see anything between levels 1-32 after that character. I enjoyed getting to level 46 with a twinked monk in less than a week immensely. You know the game already, you know where to go. You see things from a completely new perspective, and you can progress without having to dedicate 50% of your life to it. I wouldn't support it here because the player base is too small, but if EQ live in the velious era had an option to let you start out any class at all from lets say...level 45 as long as you had a level 60 main I would have definitely supported it. I think a 2x exp modifier would be a good idea here though. Despite popular belief, I simply do not learn anything new from killing my 1000th sand scarab.

That all make sense man. Do you agree or disagree with the 2x level mob thing? Its just that some of that stuffs makes the game so non-immersive and mocks the genre in my mind. The rest was just my perspective on how people might get more joy. If you're getting you're fill, thats the point of a game!

[Vellatri]

The obsession with role playing confuses me sometimes. Some people love it, I get that. But for people to think everyone should be in character all the time is just silly. Do I occasionally make comments or jokes that are technically role playing? Sure. But that's as far as it goes. My best memories in this game are from socializing with people. Not ogres and wood elves, but other people that share a common interest. The fact that EQ is classified as a role playing game doesn't mean you need to pretend you're an ogre. When I play final fantasy I don't pretend I'm cloud or lightning. I just play.
Totally understandable. Some people just want guildchat to be like a normal chatroom. It's a "social" game, after all, if you can call it that.

Me, I'd rather not talk about politics, television, or even The Hobbit. Yes, I know what to expect from anonymous people that are crammed onto the same server. However, I do like to immerse myself as much as reasonably possible.

I like playing Skyrim when I don't feel like being social. If the NPCs there asked me my opinion on the U.S. elections, I'd uninstall it. It feels like that with EQ sometimes. I get enough of that everywhere else I go. Some of us would rather just pretend we're in another world. Norrath is a very big world, after all - much bigger than Skyrim.

The nice thing about EQ is that we're free to join up with like-minded people into our own guilds. If anyone shares my opinions, or even wants to "actively" roleplay, I hope we can get something going (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87167) that we can enjoy together.

[Massive Marc]

So bottom line, what do the GMs want here? Classic or Classic Intent by devs?

Also, you guys want this stuff, do you also want all bugs present in classic, or just the ones you can take advantage of?

It was stated in the last QQ thread and I'll state it in this one:

The intent of the server is to come as close to Classic as possible (with the current client/staff/time)

If you want a classic experience with custom elements, well.. you better get started on that server.

[Frogie305]

the fuk u just say 2 me?

Jeremy this shit made me laugh so damn hard.... this is for you .







http://i47.tinypic.com/25rjsy0.jpg

[Cippofra]

That all make sense man. Do you agree or disagree with the 2x level mob thing? Its just that some of that stuffs makes the game so non-immersive and mocks the genre in my mind. The rest was just my perspective on how people might get more joy. If you're getting you're fill, thats the point of a game!

I see no issue with power leveling whatsoever as long as it is not affecting other players. If they arent taking your camps, power leveling has no effect whatsoever on you, me, or any other low levels on the server. All it means is a level 60 player from a guild so rich they shit out fungi tunics can experience what matters most from different perspectives. I'm here to relive the memories, but if I were able I would power level or twink the hell out of my character in a heartbeat. Nothing would be more fun than getting to play 8 different twinks to level 60.

[rekreant]

Sounds like you have some interesting ideas for your own server. Better get to work.

[Karafa]

Hey guyz I have some feelings towards classic EQ so lets go ahead and change what has been set in stone for years for meeeeee.

[eqravenprince]

Even if PLing was slowed down, would you really want that? That means they'll be in the lower level zones that much longer. If you really wanted to make PLing harder, you would have to prevent high level buffs like DS/Regen, and change the flee code so that the higher level mob will beat on someone several levels below them.

[Noudess]

Hey guyz I have some feelings towards classic EQ so lets go ahead and change what has been set in stone for years for meeeeee.

Again, do you want bugs that were in classic preserved as well, or just those that benefit you?

[Massive Marc]

Again, do you want bugs that were in classic preserved as well, or just those that benefit you?

While we're at it , lets get rid of exp penalty.
fuck druids/wizards lets just put in griffins that everyone can ride across zones.
Maybe we should instance seb and KC ?
shit, might as well put in a auction house.
some battlegrounds maybe ?
Spirit rezer ?

[Noudess]

While we're at it , lets get rid of exp penalty.
fuck druids/wizards lets just put in griffins that everyone can ride across zones.
Maybe we should instance seb and KC ?
shit, might as well put in a auction house.
some battlegrounds maybe ?
Spirit rezer ?

Answer the question. If your argument is that the things I said were in classic - do you also want the bugs from classic left in? If not, then you're argument holds no weight whatsoever.

And the other things you bring up above are not bugs/exploits that go against the intent of EQ.

Can you understand a rational argument or are you just going to spout random stuff?

I don't want classic changed, just obvious exploits addressed. How hard is that to understand? Or are you really that low intelligence?

Using swear words and random stuff is really effective when trying to discuss a point. Not. What are you 12?

[Massive Marc]

Answer the question. If your argument is that the things I said were in classic - do you also want the bugs from classic left in? If not, then you're argument holds no weight whatsoever.

And the other things you bring up above are not bugs/exploits that go against the intent of EQ.

Can you understand a rational argument or are you just going to spout random stuff?

I don't want classic changed, just obvious exploits addressed. How hard is that to understand? Or are you really that low intelligence?

Using swear words and random stuff is really effective when trying to discuss a point. Not. What are you 12?

I'm quite happy with the way things are here. Clearly, you're not. My point, which flew over your head, was that, it's a slippery slope when you start changing classic elements based on subjective reasoning.

These elements were in classic, this server strives to be classic in every way possible. This isn't hard to comprehend. Talk about low intelligence, do a fucking search and see how this topic has been beaten to death and every retarded suggestion (like your novel length post) has been thrown out the window.

Again, and this is very simple, If you want a Classic Server with custom elements (ie: MQ removed, powerleveling removed and whatever other wacked ideas you have) then you need to build your own.

Use your fucking head.

I don't want classic changed, just obvious exploits addressed.

If you're aware of a exploit or bug, post it in the bug section, otherwise, gtfo.

[Ele]

Without getting into whether or not these things should be implemented here. (They should not). It is an interesting exercise to see what mistakes or just simple shortsightedness Verant/Sony had when making the game and updating it along the way.

The developers back in 1997-99 had no idea that EQ would be as popular as it was or that it would spawn the progeny of games that it did. The developers thought most people would never get past their 30s; however, the uber guild/power gamer crowd quickly proved them wrong and incidentally are the ones most likely to pull up an emulated server.

Capping stats at 200/255 in the first few expansions. Didn't leave any growing room.

Recharging.

Feign Death mechanics.

Lack of significant money sinks.

Primal weapons.

21/36/41% haste items in first release. Best haste % available before the first expansion even dropped.

Complete Healing was a huge oversight, which only got better as time went on. It also became the basis for new encounters to be measured by, rather than coming up with strategies or interesting mechanics, just make the mob hit harder and faster requiring more precision in the CH chain.

[Noudess]

I'm quite happy with the way things are here. Clearly, you're not. My point, which flew over your head, was that, it's a slippery slope when you start changing classic elements based on subjective reasoning.

These elements were in classic, this server strives to be classic in every way possible. This isn't hard to comprehend. Talk about low intelligence, do a fucking search and see how this topic has been beaten to death and every retarded suggestion (like your novel length post) has been thrown out the window.

Again, and this is very simple, If you want a Classic Server with custom elements (ie: MQ removed, powerleveling removed and whatever other wacked ideas you have) then you need to build your own.

Use your fucking head.



If you're aware of a exploit or bug, post it in the bug section, otherwise, gtfo.

All 4 are exploits or bugs. Not even debatable Against intent of developers - hence exploit/bug.

I do not want to change anything that isn't an exploit or bug. If I did, I would not have come to this server. I hate what EQ changed into, which was obvious had you read my entire post. It was novel length because some people don't fathom the idea that EQ itself is an evolution of an existing game. The entire genre would not exist if not for role players.

Why so angry? Could it be that you are afraid of having to actually play the game as it was intended instead of using every cheat/trick you can find? Classic EQ also had items disappear in tradeskills if you made a mistake - want that back?

I don't mind a discussion, or even conceding points. But the stronghest argument the few of you have is that the things I mention were in classic EQ. But you're fine with taking other bugs out that AID your levelling/xp.

You're either trolling or just can't understand logic. The other people aside form the on random guy that spit out 4 useless words, all made logical, rational arguments. You can't answer the one I asked. Do you wants bugs fixed? If so, that's not true classic either, and invalidates your entire argument.

[Noudess]

Without getting into whether or not these things should be implemented here. (They should not). It is an interesting exercise to see what mistakes or just simple shortsightedness Verant/Sony had when making the game and updating it along the way.

The developers back in 1997-99 had no idea that EQ would be as popular as it was or that it would spawn the progeny of games that it did. The developers thought most people would never get past their 30s; however, the uber guild/power gamer crowd quickly proved them wrong and incidentally are the ones most likely to pull up an emulated server.

Capping stats at 200/255 in the first few expansions. Didn't leave any growing room.

Recharging.

Feign Death mechanics.

Lack of significant money sinks.

Primal weapons.

21/36/41% haste items in first release. Best haste % available before the first expansion even dropped.

Complete Healing was a huge oversight, which only got better as time went on. It also became the basis for new encounters to be measured by, rather than coming up with strategies or interesting mechanics, just make the mob hit harder and faster requiring more precision in the CH chain.

Great post.

[Noudess]

I'm quite happy with the way things are here. Clearly, you're not. My point, which flew over your head, was that, it's a slippery slope when you start changing classic elements based on subjective reasoning.


Actually Marc - I couldn't agree with you more on the above. I just don't consider the 4 things I mentioned to be a clasic element - anymore than any other bug. They are bugs or exploits abusing a bug.

Applied to anything other than exploits or bugs - I'd agree totally.

[Massive Marc]

All 4 are exploits or bugs. Not even debatable Against intent of developers - hence exploit/bug.

I do not want to change anything that isn't an exploit or bug. If I did, I would not have come to this server. I hate what EQ changed into, which was obvious had you read my entire post. It was novel length because some people don't fathom the idea that EQ itself is an evolution of an existing game. The entire genre would not exist if not for role players.

Why so angry? Could it be that you are afraid of having to actually play the game as it was intended instead of using every cheat/trick you can find? Classic EQ also had items disappear in tradeskills if you made a mistake - want that back?

I don't mind a discussion, or even conceding points. But the stronghest argument the few of you have is that the things I mention were in classic EQ. But you're fine with taking other bugs out that AID your levelling/xp.

You're either trolling or just can't understand logic. The other people aside form the on random guy that spit out 4 useless words, all made logical, rational arguments. You can't answer the one I asked. Do you wants bugs fixed? If so, that's not true classic either, and invalidates your entire argument.

I don't even know...

Like I think your serious, which is kind of sad... but part of me thinks I'm getting trolled.

So, to sum up... if you have a BUG that needs to be fixed, submit said bug to the Bugs thread and I'm sure they'll fix it.

[Slave]

...the decision lies in the hands of the great people who set this server up. I bow to whatever they decide.



They decided long ago that none of the things you have mentioned are bugs or exploits. Pretty much nobody thinks that. That is basically some pretty fucked up conspiracy shit you're spouting, real tin foil hat kind of stuff with absolutely zero evidence whatsoever to back it up, and truly assloads of developer interviews, patch notes, and official announcements to counter it. I would just reroll a new forum account if I were you.

[Ele]

All 4 are exploits or bugs. Not even debatable Against intent of developers - hence exploit/bug.

I do not want to change anything that isn't an exploit or bug. If I did, I would not have come to this server. I hate what EQ changed into, which was obvious had you read my entire post. It was novel length because some people don't fathom the idea that EQ itself is an evolution of an existing game. The entire genre would not exist if not for role players.



Part of the difficultly of the 4 "bugs/exploits" you originally identified were that all of them existed in classic EQ. They were also all used to some extent. However, P99 represents an interesting piece of the EQ pie, most people that pull up the EMU servers are people that want to either relive their uber guild past, achieve an uber status they did not get to experience previously, or just soak up the nostalgia.

Players that come to play on this server have the ability to know every single drop, quest, hotspot, patch deadline well ahead of time. Players can pick out their desired progression and create a plan of attack, if you will, for itemization and leveling. This did not exist back in the 1999-2001 era, everything was fresh and unknown to most of the player base. P99 everything is known, all the "exploits" and "bugs" that existed and were used and kept underground from 1999-2001 are rampant because they are well known now.

Another issue with all this is the length of time between expansions and the lower over all player density. The ratio of mobs/players is much higher than any live server allowing people to level far faster than they did on live. The length of time also allows people to accumulate more wealth, alts, items between expansions resulting in even more issues of overcrowding/farming. On live, the majority of people didn't have time for that, they had to level and explore new areas rather than knowing to go to point A, then B, then C and finishing quests/levels in minutes/hours rather than days/weeks/months.


Regarding the double level = no xp, this would be quickly nullified after level 4 or 5. In terms of efficiency it is counterproductive to have the PL'ee swing on a level 30 mob at level 15, and even then you can pull a level 29 mob for him and he would then get full exp.

Twinking was solved on special rule set servers such as Firiona Vie; however, it was still rampant along with two-boxing on regular servers.

Recharging happened all the time, it was just less known to the general populace; however, everyone knows about it here so it makes it a more widespread issue.

MQing was allowed on live. Having a container combine is a stop gap to MQing issues, such as warrior epic, enchanter epic, Monk RoLC, etc, but those are few and far between. It may violate the spirit of the quest, but it is well within the rules of the game.

[Itap]

So bottom line, what do the GMs want here?

They have made this perfectly clear, numerous times

[Noudess]

They decided long ago that none of the things you have mentioned are bugs or exploits. Pretty much nobody thinks that. That is basically some pretty fucked up conspiracy shit you're spouting, real tin foil hat kind of stuff with absolutely zero evidence whatsoever to back it up, and truly assloads of developer interviews, patch notes, and official announcements to counter it. I would just reroll a new forum account if I were you.

So you're saying they intended:

selling a used up item after a non-used up one and getting 2 non used ones back?

having a level 12 get xp from a 30 mob via some contorted battle?

MQing items they intentionally made no drop?

Show me any proof of that. They are all such bastardizations of intended functionality and you think its consipracy? Can you back any of that up? No. Its just people*not wanting to give up cheats.

[Noudess]

They have made this perfectly clear, numerous times

Point me to it - and thread over. But it has to be specific.

[Itap]

So you're saying they intended:

selling a used up item after a non-used up one and getting 2 non used ones back?

having a level 12 get xp from a 30 mob via some contorted battle?

MQing items they intentionally made no drop?

Show me any proof of that. They are all such bastardizations of intended functionality and you think its consipracy? Can you back any of that up? No. Its just people*not wanting to give up cheats.

Dude, why are you beating a dead horse? We all know devs made changes to the original EQ, but it didnt happen till expansions later (I.E. removing hybrid penalties, improving all melee skills to be equivalent to warriors, ect).

This emulated server isn't "Lets create original EverQuest, yet modify it so that it makes certain individuals happy, because we know that's what the original developers would have wanted".

This is a recreation of original EverQuest, along with all the original rules and original gameplay.

[Itap]

Point me to it - and thread over. But it has to be specific.

I seriously do not have the time, nor want to search through thousands of posts to prove to you that the developers of the project want to keep things classic.

Heres the first post I found by doing a simple search

...But regardless, this is a "Classic" server, with the intention of stopping at Velious. If you want to play Planes of Power, you can play PEQ...

[Massive Marc]

dont feed da troll.

[Nirgon]

The devs here clearly know that EverQuest was popular because of recharging items on vendors and invis pulling mobs.

Might log in and try to drain a few raid mobs.

[Vellatri]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I don't necessarily agree with Noudess's suggestions, but I think this is a very valid point:
Classic EQ also had items disappear in tradeskills if you made a mistake - want that back?
I don't think anyone answered it. A search of the forums doesn't produce an answer either. I tried various combinations of "tradeskill, container, combine, mistake, and disappear," but maybe it's just me. Can someone tell me why we get our components back?

I can understand if it's just an oversight; that they haven't bothered to get around to "fixing" it back into the annoying way it used to be. I know they have limited resources and have to prioritize. I also understand that there are UI things that they have no control over. Or maybe they left it this way so that players would not be disadvantaged by OTHER bugs (P99-specific bugs) in tradeskills that they are trying to hash out. (Most likely, IMHO.) However, if they intentionally want to forever keep it as it is now, it does seem like a double standard.

[rekreant]

Its the devs server, and they make it however they want. If you have a better idea find a way to fund a server and do it. I for one wouldnt want to play a true classic experience, cause that experience sucks. Back then we didnt now any better, but now its a whole nother ball game.

[Splorf22]

Elethia is spot on. Remember also that invis pulling wasn't even really known about until about 5-6 months ago.

I think the other problem here is that as Verant gradually fixed these bugs and rebalanced their game they also changed a lot of stuff that made EQ great in the first place.

Speaking personally, I like item recharging . . . its just way, way too cheap. For example, although I think charm is actually somewhat weaker than it was on Live, we still see enchanters going nuts soloing stuff. Why? Part of it is we have had 2 years of practice, but a lot of it is because we all have a great get-out-of-jail-free card called the WC cap. IMO something like WC Cap/1000, Golem Metal Wand/2000, Puppet Strings/10000 and making the casting time 1 second rather than instant would really rebalance some of these ridiculous items.

Invis pulling is ridiculous as I've said before, and it's so unbalancing that I would be willing to just make a nonclassic change here.

So yeah, my personal version of classic would include those changes as well as no fucking dungeon key quests, weaker 1-50 mage pets, stronger 50-60 nukes, more balanced melee skillcaps, no hybrid xp penalties, etc.

[Vellatri]

If the answer to the tradeskilling question is, "they make it however they want," then why is the answer to the MQing question, "because it's classic?" Just say, "that's how the devs want it," and be done with it. I have no problems with them doing whatever they want because P99 is fun and I know I certainly couldn't do better.

[Furniture]

Plain and simple the game would be much much better without twinking, pling, item recharging etc. but even if the devs agreed to make eq better there would be a backlash because unfortunately verant back in the day were too inept to do anything about it so now were stuck with a server that uses these "exploits" as normal every day behavior, item recharging and mq is bullshit, needs to go asap but there's nothing we can do

[Noudess]

Plain and simple the game would be much much better without twinking, pling, item recharging etc. but even if the devs agreed to make eq better there would be a backlash because unfortunately verant back in the day were too inept to do anything about it so now were stuck with a server that uses these "exploits" as normal every day behavior, item recharging and mq is bullshit, needs to go asap but there's nothing we can do

Finally sense. If the GMs want it , fine. But at least lets admit what it really is.

Everyone in this thread arguing because its classic, also argue for other stuff that is non classic. I bet you all want 2-boxing and they banned that - that was classic.

[Furniture]

I can see how people could just want everything the way it was back in classic but people aren't seeing the bigger picture as to why these things are terrible, or they don't want to lose the convenience of these things that they have been abusing for years now (item recharging more specifically)


We are extremely lucky though that the devs here took an early stance against boxing, because that's classic, but it was recognized as being detrimental to the game and experience, so it has been removed and fixed in a way, a perfect everquest experience would take this reasoning for the other issues we've mentioned , but unfortunately we can't get everything

Btw if you Remember certain quests on this server before mqing was enabled, the reward and overall experience of obtaining the items were so much better, a low level with jboots was awesome and an accomplishment, but now any idiot with enough platinum can get it in 20 minutes

[Furniture]

Also in case your interested, there is a bug report somewhere that states that back in classic there was a cap on exp you can get from mobs, players back in the day were not getting insane exp from a mob 30 levels higher then them, that would actually bring pling to a more acceptable level but it is certainly way out of line right now

[Slave]

Plain and simple the game would be much much better without twinking, pling, item recharging etc... ...now were stuck with a server that uses these "exploits" as normal every day behavior, item recharging and mq is bullshit, needs to go asap but there's nothing we can do

There's games that "fixed" these things. World of Warcraft and every other "modern" game other than EverQuest doesn't have any of this. Many of us choose to play here because it allows more of a sandbox feel to the oldschool RPGs that we enjoy.

-Twinking is just about one of the coolest things ever in a video game, and it barely exists outside of EverQuest. One of the things that modern games have gone the wrong way on, and one of the reasons I play EverQuest.

-PLing allows people who have done it all before, to get to a level where they can experience new content they didn't do on Live or P99 yet for some reason. It rewards time spent on all characters, rather than arbitrarily punishing you if you want to make a change some day. This is a video game, not PnP, not even close, and it never will be. PLing is one of the reasons I play EverQuest.

-Multiquesting circumvents what I am going to call an unnecessary and bullshit mechanic in No Drop items. This was invented to keep people playing at their computers longer so that they would have to pay more money. I'm sorry but if I decide to give an item away I should be able to do it. They're not all powerfully cursed Dungeons and Dragons artifacts.

Challenge these weird preconceived notions you have about how games should be that are merely a manifestation of your nurture, because that's, you know, just like, your opinion man.

[fishingme]

Power-leveling existed in classic EQ. Check

MQing items existed in classic EQ. Check

Recharging items existed in classic EQ. Check

Twinking existed in classic EQ. Check

I see your points, and agree with some of them, but this server was created to mimic a classic era EverQuest. Removing or altering the above listed would be interfering with the devs intentions of creating a classic server.

Determining what or whats not fun is subjective. People loved EverQuest for many reasons, not just the reasons you listed.

Mqing on my server on live was extremely rare. A large population imo was the cause of this. Twinking to the extent on p99 was really really really rare on live, also imo due to a large population. So, classic? Not too much, but I can live with it.

[Elements]

No subscription fee, damn not classic...

[Massive Marc]

Wow you found someone that agrees with, congratz. two fucking peas in a pod.

[Slave]

Also in case your interested, there is a bug report somewhere that states that back in classic there was a cap on exp you can get from mobs, players back in the day were not getting insane exp from a mob 30 levels higher then them, that would actually bring pling to a more acceptable level but it is certainly way out of line right now

In case YOU'RE interested, the cap on experience you can get from mobs was around 20% of your level.

Do you really think that "bringing down" the experience earnable from a mob to 20% of a level is going to make one bit of difference in any way at all whatsoever in whatever shape imaginable or conceivable that one might consider to possibly ponder?! "OMGZ I have to kill 300 mobs to get to level 50 that reallly sucksss....."

Like have you ever gotten past level 4? I don't understand.

[Noudess]

In case YOU'RE interested, the cap on experience you can get from mobs was around 20% of your level.

Do you really think that "bringing down" the experience earnable from a mob to 20% of a level is going to make one bit of difference in any way at all whatsoever in whatever shape imaginable or conceivable that one might consider to possibly ponder?! "OMGZ I have to kill 300 mobs to get to level 50 that reallly sucksss....."

Like have you ever gotten past level 4? I don't understand.

No you clearly don't. And apparently never will.

[Furniture]

Twinking sure is fun, I did it back in the day and I do it now, I consider it to be the least important issue that I mentioned, and there was always the fironia vie server for those who didn't want it

Pling on the other hand is not so bad, but on p99 the max exp cap needs to be implemented, it is easier to pl on this server then it was back in classic by far because of this, this would in turn rise the cost of pls so that it would be quite expensive to pay for one like it should be. you want a pl? I can imagine this will be fixed eventually since it is a known non classic bug on the server

Mqing and item recharging however is complete bull shit and are straight up unintended bugs that were never fixed, sure it was classic, but they weren't intentional and were way more rare compared to p99

[Furniture]

Lol at the losers shedding tears of anger that people actually want the server to get rid of the ez mode exploits, and by the way you moron the cap was at 2-3 blues, you really think that is 20%?? Lol

[Ele]

Lol at the losers shedding tears of anger that people actually want the server to get rid of the ez mode exploits, and by the way you moron the cap was at 2-3 blues, you really think that is 20%?? Lol

Ad hominem attacks do nothing to help support your cause or goals. If you believe that there are bugs/exploits occurring, please report them with evidence in the bug subforum.

[Furniture]

As I've mentioned there's already been a bug thread about it, thanks for the suggestion though

[Furniture]

Lol @ "I don't care if everquest has no drop items, its MINE I can do what I want!"

Or "I don't care if this item has 5 charges, I can just use the intentional p99 explot and use it as many times as i want! Fuck you original eq devs! You shouldn't have allowed this bug to happen in the first place!"

[Grahm]

i think once you get to the point that when you log into everquest, you're not you, but your character, especially in the depth you went through..........sounds like a medical condition to me.

[Handull]

In classic eq people didn't know what quests were worthwhile and what mobs dropped the Best-in-Slot loot, so they were forced to explore, a lot. Thats what the basis of your table top rpg comparison comes down to. The only way to make an emu as amazing as EQ Classic is to make a world as diverse and detailed as Norrath. With all the answers these days, there is less to explore for the novelty of it. So people try out twinking, PLing, etc.

Along the lines of Roleplaying, why can't I roleplay that my characters know each other in the game world? Why can't my level 50+ <insert race here> have a younger brother, son, cousin of the same or related race, or have found an abandoned little iksar and helped them along their journey? Roleplaying very easily explains twinking. (And you said you have to drop items or trust someone...but you also said the whole point is to play with a party of people and adventure together....so shouldn't they gain your trust as you go?)

MQing isn't a bug, its code that the Devs specifically put into the game. Without MQing big quests (like epics) would have been even harder for people to figure out. Imagine how much it would suck if your guild looted a rare raid mob epic drop (see druid, ragner, wiz, bard, mage, sk, etc) only to a month later finally figure out what class needs that piece, and for it to be completely and utterly useless.

This is an MMO RPG, and will not be exactly the same as a tabletop rpg, which is essentially instanced in your basement. The gaming culture is also shifting from the way it was in 1999. As an early mmo rpg, EQ could be more about the adventure and exploration, but these days players are driven by rewards and upgrades, not simply by delivering mail across OOT for a few peices of platinum, some gold, and a pat on the back.

Not a terrible post, but your ideas could be more thought out.

[Cippofra]

Twinking was much more common on veeshan than it is here. People also had more to twink with. A big part of that is most of the money on this server is owned by people who wont need or use it (the two uber guilds). Which is mostly due to them being around so long and having a big monopoly on anything worth having. These are the issues you see a lot of people crying about (why cant I have a crack at the dragons or gods?) but you never see anyone doing anything about it. Actually, this is another benefit of twinking and power leveling on massive scales I havent thought about it. The server could really benefit from fresh level 60's. People actually trying to compete with the uber guilds rather than crying about it all day. It's a lot like listening to someone that flips burgers at mcdonald's that they deserve to make more money..

[Karafa]

Implying Multi-questing was ever an exploit or a bug.. zzz.

[fishingme]

Implying Multi-questing was ever an exploit or a bug.. zzz.

Funny enough logic says that it is a bug because the last item that you receive is no drop. Along with most of the other items also being no drop.

[Alexu]

So you're saying they intended:

selling a used up item after a non-used up one and getting 2 non used ones back?

having a level 12 get xp from a 30 mob via some contorted battle?

MQing items they intentionally made no drop?

Show me any proof of that. They are all such bastardizations of intended functionality and you think its consipracy? Can you back any of that up? No. Its just people*not wanting to give up cheats.

Do you really think that there is absolutely no chance that any of these "bugs" were intentional? You have no way of knowing this without talking to the devs themselves. You can think you know all you want, but you will never know for sure.

The amount of planning and detail that went into this game is absolutely astounding. They had to have foreseen the possibility or even need for powerleveling (e.g. a guild might need extra of a specific class for a certain encounter). Maybe no drop quest reward items were allowed to be MQed, but not intended to be tradeable for reasons beyond your perspective. There are many things to consider here.

It is wonderful that DnD paved the way for this game (God(s) Bless you hard core role-players that made this all possible!), but this game is not DnD. It is its own game.

My argument is not to say that these things were intentionally programmed into the game, but for you to say that they surely were not intended is not something that you have the authority to decide in my opinion.

Not that any of this matters anyway...

[gotrocks]

I don't think, and I never will

Now that i've pointed out that you typed this, I'm sure youll go back and edit to fix it, but for the record folks, that was in his post/is currently in his post.

And you're right, you don't think, and you never will.

First off, you're making assumptions. Many of them. You assume you know what people want. You don't. If you want these things, go make your own server.

Second, you make multiple references to "the original developers intent". I'd like to know just when you sat down with them and asked them what that was. I promise you it wasn't to make a D&D clone, or they would have done that in MMO form. It had been done before in MUDS. Stop thinking you know what people want, what the devs wanted, what the P99 devs want. If you don't like these things, gtfo.

Third, this server is an EQ Classic server. That means things that were present in EQ Classic, are present here. Yes, this includes many bugs/changes that are both for and against us. Hybrid XP penalties were removed in Velious. As is the pet taking half your xp thing. Both are implemented here. Neither are enjoyable, but they are Classic. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Fourth, your history section was kind of neat, but something I believe most people already knew about. Also, it was a shitty way to try and draw people in and make them interested in what you have to say only to follow it up with your stupid 'i want the server to be *this* way' agenda. You've posted it before. You made a thread on powerleveling, only to be shot down and decide to dress it up and post it again. Stop. We don't want to hear it anymore.

Fifth, just to be clear, since you're so hell bent on cramming it down our throats (and im only going to say this once, so listen carefuly): MAKING IT SO YOU DONT GET XP FROM MOBS TWICE YOUR LEVEL OR HIGHER WOULD NOT STOP PEOPLE FROM POWERLEVELING. This is probably the dumbest solution I've ever heard. people would just kill mobs one level below that limit. Or 5 level below that limit, since at lvl 20 you could still get powerlevel'd on lvl 35 mobs. Smart.

And lastly, stop making these threads. We get it. You don't like these 'gamebreaking' issues. If you dont like it so much, leave. Frankly, I'm pretty disgusted that you wrote this long history of RPG's, left a bunch of stuff out but still had some decent things to say, but it was all so you could simply cram your agenda down our throats again. An agenda that most of us think is stupid. I should have known that was the point of this thread when I saw the author was you, but I honestly didn't look.

All that being said, I know you're just trying to help, but I really only have one thought to leave you with: Fuck off.

[Handull]

Funny enough logic says that it is a bug because the last item that you receive is no drop. Along with most of the other items also being no drop.

how is MQing a bug? just think for two second about how any reasonable programmer would code an NPC turn in. EQ makes it especially easy, because NPC turn ins can't be stacked. the easy way: player clicks trade, game checks if the items in the trade window match the items required for the quest reward. if yes, player gets reward, if no, return or eat items accordingly. but in order to MQ, the script not only has to remember what was turned in recently, but allow someone else to complete that set of turn ins for a reward.

you know no drop items can be looted by any level toon, right? why isn't that a bug/exploit? with a 7+ minute corpse timer you can easily kill a mob, log over, and be at the corpse b4 the 5 min free loot limit happens. i've done it a ton. would you rather all loot be no drop and you can't loot something unless you or your party god the exp kill? so no more farming green con mobs, if you ran from CB to kelethin to sell rusty weapons and that brass earring finally drops, too bad for you for being out of zone when it happened, etc. EQ eventually put in level suggestions and requirements for items along these lines, but that was when they already messed things up, as you describe it.

and it was said, but yeah, the "twice your level" rule is so silly. most mobs in the game are under level 50, especially the ones people exp off of, even when they are level 59, so that means a level 25+ can get PL'd no problem. Unrest mobs go up to level 35, so that means its still an amazing zone to PL 15-20, and you could easily push that into 21-25. if not unrest for 21-25, then guk/MM/etc still work. below 15 you could just do unrest yard trash/first floor, or if you really want to ruin someone's day go pull ALL of crushbone. CB is good exp for a legit group even into level 15, so it'll be great for a druid to PL a lvl 4-15 toon in no time while literally keeping the entire zone dead.

but enough hate, heres a real solution to the PLing problem that comes up here and there. if gms wanted to take a hard stance to it, make threats of suspensions, and then follow through suspending people who pull PL trains through exp groups and otherwise shit up a zone, then that might help. I haven't PL'd for a long time, but I did do it a bunch, almost always in unrest. I was very careful to usually do it in the morning. if i group was already there, i asked what they were pulling and left those floors up. if a group walked in, i asked what area they wanted to camp, and i left those mobs for them. its not hard to be nice to one another and still have a good PL session.

twinking, recharging, and MQing dont directly effect other players, so dont do it if you dont like it

[Grahm]

Funny enough logic says that it is a bug because the last item that you receive is no drop. Along with most of the other items also being no drop.

Logic also says, in pure "role-playing" terms, that every thing should be tradeable....whens the last time you went to go give something to a pal and just couldnt end up give it up, cause the thing is stuck to you

[Hollywood]

I also wanted to discuss how P1999 can make Classic EQ even better. This section will probably be flamed, and I guess so be it. So long as you ponder the points from a viewpoint of how the game was intended - where it came from - and frankly why classic EQ is the nest game available. While some of the things below may make YOU less powerful, they make the game a more true representation of a real world that we all get to enjoy forever.

Ok, so what is in classic EQ that is being corrupted today? Or misused? This is stuff I fell violates the intent of the original developers. And I agree with their vision. Some I'm suggesting the server GM fixes, others I am asking players to look at themselves and decide.

XP.


Experience Points/Power Leveling - I have no problem with power leveling on this game for three reasons.
A) It represents a time when developers did not completely hamper or hinder people for having achieved success. In real life, you may know someone who is rich and generous and you therefore reap the benefits of that relationship. Whether you are IN IT for the money is between you and them.
B) People who power through stuff might miss out on content. It's their loss, your gain.
You can't make the argument that it keeps people from grouping because they had no intention of grouping to begin with.
C)Modifying code to stop power leveling is not a simple flag to be turned on or off.




Twinking


I'm not going to propose any changes here. Except by players themselves. I don't think, and I never will. Each of my characters is unique, they're not an extension of my penis, pardon the analogy. They are living , breathing , members of Norrath with personality and background. I believe we just cheapen our Experience by giving them level 40 gear and ignoring the what, dozens of zones we could be grouping in, improving teamwork skills, etc.

That said, its your game, your character, your experience. Nonetheless, if you are at all curious, try playing your next alt like he was your only character. I think you'd be surprised at how much fun it is to be challenged and to actually use that drop you just got instead of mocking it as vendor fodder because your level 60 gave you better, even though he's a troll and you're a wood elf :P

Similar to power leveling, I find that twinking is the ultimate example of player freedom bestowed via developers. Bind on Equip style items (which obviously didn't exist yet back then) are one of MMORPG's banes. To be able to find an item, and gift it to someone or yourself is simply reaping the benefits of the work you put in initially.
If I level a Necromancer to 60 and solo good items, I either sell them or gift them. Why sell when I don't need money? It's like a parent working hard to give their kids everything they could ever need. If you're worried about spoiling them, then teach them how to be gracious and grateful.

You should also take into account that EverQuest was severely imbalanced in places.
Sometimes a twink could make a difference and other times it was/is irrelevant.
A 40s something Druid won't be tanking in Karnor's castle..

And similar to power leveling, how do you recode to stop twinking? There is no BOE foundation/system in place. About best you could do is flag a bunch of normal lore items to be NO TRADE. Which then has the consequence of taking many items off the market and a further consequence of more people camping mobs that are in amongst group experience areas.


Recharging via vendor


LOL.* I can hear all the l33t people screaming already. What, I can't recharge my leatherfoot helm?

Listen. Do you think the GMs meant for this? Think that the stacking bug on a merchant is intentional?

Hell guys, I've done it. And it makes me feel dirty.

I'd much rather the GMs fixed this bug.. It doesn't even bother me if they create an NPC that specializes in recharging for a fee. At least that would be immersive and in game RP. Taking advantage of this bug is just cheesy and it's a staple on P1999.


Agreed. This is fixable, and would stop half of the mobilization capabilities of guilds.
As well as half the forum posts about 'they stole our merchant sold items..'


MQing


Honestly.*I'm on the fence on this one. I see many instance where this falls into perfect RP. But, I'm sure the devs made the items no drop for this very reason. They didn't want Jboots in the hands of your level 2 warrior.

I'd be happy if they made it not work, but honestly, this falls into the same bucket as twinking. If you MQ, you're making a decision about how you want to experience the game. Earn everything for yourself with each character, or take shortcuts. Personally, as painful as it is to be Sowless, I'll take 35 levels of it for the joy of getting teh jboots with my own two hands once I earn it.

Agreed. Multi-questing was a horrible concept and entirely defeated the NO TRADE/ NO DROP system. It encourages people to camp mobs that are in amongst experience group areas. It also takes away NBG considerations. I read a post here not too long ago about someone who witnessed a Karnor's group get a Pawnbuster to drop a Monk pipe which was then taken by someone in group after they rolled on it - for the purpose of selling it later, even though they knew he needed it for his epic.

Rogean made a massive mistake when adding this in and it severely hurts classic status.

[Snagglepuss]

I like how in Vanguard you could "mentor" or "be mentored" by a higher level player. It was nice how my friends could temporarily de-level their character (and skills) to group with me and we could explore content while everyone was still receiving exp.

Something like that would have been nice on EQ and would kill the argument "I needz 2 PL my friend so he can get MaX LvL and we can camps phat luwtz, J00 SuX00Rz!!1!"

[fishingme]

how is MQing a bug? just think for two second about how any reasonable programmer would code an NPC turn in. EQ makes it especially easy, because NPC turn ins can't be stacked. the easy way: player clicks trade, game checks if the items in the trade window match the items required for the quest reward. if yes, player gets reward, if no, return or eat items accordingly. but in order to MQ, the script not only has to remember what was turned in recently, but allow someone else to complete that set of turn ins for a reward.

you know no drop items can be looted by any level toon, right? why isn't that a bug/exploit? with a 7+ minute corpse timer you can easily kill a mob, log over, and be at the corpse b4 the 5 min free loot limit happens. i've done it a ton. would you rather all loot be no drop and you can't loot something unless you or your party god the exp kill? so no more farming green con mobs, if you ran from CB to kelethin to sell rusty weapons and that brass earring finally drops, too bad for you for being out of zone when it happened, etc. EQ eventually put in level suggestions and requirements for items along these lines, but that was when they already messed things up, as you describe it.

and it was said, but yeah, the "twice your level" rule is so silly. most mobs in the game are under level 50, especially the ones people exp off of, even when they are level 59, so that means a level 25+ can get PL'd no problem. Unrest mobs go up to level 35, so that means its still an amazing zone to PL 15-20, and you could easily push that into 21-25. if not unrest for 21-25, then guk/MM/etc still work. below 15 you could just do unrest yard trash/first floor, or if you really want to ruin someone's day go pull ALL of crushbone. CB is good exp for a legit group even into level 15, so it'll be great for a druid to PL a lvl 4-15 toon in no time while literally keeping the entire zone dead.

but enough hate, heres a real solution to the PLing problem that comes up here and there. if gms wanted to take a hard stance to it, make threats of suspensions, and then follow through suspending people who pull PL trains through exp groups and otherwise shit up a zone, then that might help. I haven't PL'd for a long time, but I did do it a bunch, almost always in unrest. I was very careful to usually do it in the morning. if i group was already there, i asked what they were pulling and left those floors up. if a group walked in, i asked what area they wanted to camp, and i left those mobs for them. its not hard to be nice to one another and still have a good PL session.

twinking, recharging, and MQing dont directly effect other players, so dont do it if you dont like it


re-read my original post. The end item is no drop, you can't trade no drop items.

[Karafa]

MQing was never a bug, infact it's even in the Kunark manual lol..

Mentoring is dumb. You're playing on a 1999 emulated server, if you want mentoring and no drop gear go play EQ2?

[Vellatri]

MQing was never a bug, infact it's even in the Kunark manual lol..
Really? I still have mine. What page?

[Taffan]

I would just like to point out the EQ is based largely on the hobbit/LotR and that bilbo twinked frodo with mithil anda badass sword. Also aragorn powerlevelled the hobbits.

/thread

[Bamzal Sherbet]

MQing ... infact it's even in the Kunark manual lol..

Ya.. Gonna call BS on this one

[bouncerr 2.0]

Ya.. Gonna call BS on this one

I believe it. Mq was never a ban able offense and I don't see anything wrong with it. If players can achieve the pieces and sell them that is there own hard work camping that said item and selling it to someone who needs.

[Bamzal Sherbet]

i just meant in the kunark manual or not. i got it show me what page :p

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I like the OP. I would only add that frustration and not getting what you want when you want is part of the classic experience. All hail corpse runs.

the game declines, in general, as difficulties are nerfed from the dev side. The game self-declines, as the economy gets mudflated and every alt is heavily twinked.

instancing and world channels. two very diff things. both killed the experience big time, imo. Sometimes big things, sometimes little things.

you have to keep it hard.

[stormlord]

...........
And what's funny, is many people didn't realize that all the things that made Norrath like a real world - death, travel, trade skills requiring real effort, all the things they kept complaining about, and getting changed, were the very reasons classic EQ was and is special. It gives us a challenge. It gives us reward. it gives us a realistic environment. We skill up as we DO things. The world was logical, despite being magical. And yet, the player base and greedy Sony corrupted it for money. And now, what is left? A pile of junk over on live.
..........
(targeted an area of your post that I want to address in my reply)

I agree with a lot of your points. I don't believe you're deserving of flames. So you can relax because at least I won't troll you. But I'll give you some of my feedback.

(about the quote) It's something that has often crossed my mind. Realism to me just means challenge. It means complexity. It doesn't mean being dragged behind a speeding car on a rope on a gravel road with nothing to protect me. Pain isn't what I like, it's the complexity inherent in realism that I like. But even though the "realism" to some extent makes classic EQ engaging, I think that this is not true for everyone. I think some people are turned off and chased away by it. In fact, it might be that most people are not friendly to realism in their game. You have to consider that while what you say is right - that this makes classic EQ somewhat special - you must also admit that what you say is not right for everyone or even most people. NOTE: I'm playing Wurm Online off and on lately and it's a good example of a game that retains some level of realism. It's not the same as classic EQ, ofc; it's a sandbox game. But it will often not go out of its way to save you from your ignorance. And it has lots of little details you have to look out for. I like that. Keeps me on my toes. Don't feel babied.

But don't mistake my appreciation for "realism" as meaning that I like pain or that I like broken mechanics. Many things in classic EQ don't work well and don't make the mistake of thinking I worship at its altar.

MQing - I agree.
Recharging - I agree.
Twinking - Unsure, but I agree that twinking kills the fun of leveling up.
PLing - Unsure, but I agree that it's anti-climactic and can be disruptive.

Not sure if it matters whether the levels went past 60 or not. However, I think that a lateral type of advancement might have been better than the linear progression we got. What I mean by this is that linear progression increases -all- of your power. Whereas, lateral progression is in a whole new area and the advancement might not benefit you in other areas. For example, adding 5 levels to a level-based game is an example of linear progression. Adding a chessboard game to a level-based RPG is an example of lateral progression. The chess game is a whole different advancement and doesn't make your penis bigger. Another example of later progression might be to add intelligent NPCs that you can talk to about things in the world. All they do is talk about lore. You get "social points" for talking about things. The social points don't carry over to other things, though. They don't give you more hitpoints or make your AC higher or so on.

I agree that game companies have corrupted the RPG concept somewhat. But you have to account for the mainstreaming of RPGs to gain more consumers. This isn't a complete rejection of old RPGs, it's just the adoption of a more liberal doctrine to make more money. There're still people making old-style RPGs that're not stripped down or streamlined and there're still many people playing pen & paper RPGs and also playing older RPGs on their computer. Many people still play MUDs. You'd be right if "corrupting RPGs" prevented this. Where you're right is that the mainstream is no longer making those kinds of RPGs many of us grew up with.

I have to say I mostly agree with you, especially in spirit.

[stormlord]

I like the OP. I would only add that frustration and not getting what you want when you want is part of the classic experience. All hail corpse runs.

the game declines, in general, as difficulties are nerfed from the dev side. The game self-declines, as the economy gets mudflated and every alt is heavily twinked.

instancing and world channels. two very diff things. both killed the experience big time, imo. Sometimes big things, sometimes little things.

you have to keep it hard.
I don't fully agree with your thinking here. EQ is designed as a group-game. This means when you log on you're expected to group if you want to reach your potential. If the population is low then this severely limits your ability to form groups and to meet this potential. Without global chat, the ability to form groups plummets further. Eventually, the built-in mechanics of EQ become self-destructive because they were not created to be dynamic. The game does not change itself based on population without direct developer intervention.

With a large population, I agree that global chat is unnecessary and it kills the "culturing" that might occur; many smaller communities rather than one big one. But if it's low, I don't agree.

I don't like instancing either.

I guess it comes down to ... if you're in a tavern and there's a bunch of people in there, are you going to know all their names or are you going to be texting on your android or playing a game on it? Do you use the iphone or the ipad or the (gadget) so much that you fail to interact with the world around you? There comes a point where global chat and technology and all these cheap answers to things detract from the experience by removing you from it. It's like being in the tavern but not smelling the air or hearing the shouts or feeling the bottle in your hands. Some people use their tech so much that they may as well be in another world.

This is exactly why in some games I will just sit and do nothing and watch the players pass by. I'll go over to the (place to "waste" time) and pay attention and hail the non-players. Get off the leveling train for a while. Because sometimes players rush so much to level that the rush becomes a form of detachment. The developers get so caught up in this level rush that they forget to make a compelling intricate world. It's like you step off the leveling train and actually open your eyes and start to see empty-faced non-players and uninteresting environments. Just like somebody who's long been stuck on their ipad, you see for the first time. This is what has led me to focus on the environment and non-essentials more and less on the level rush. Not to say that I don't like to level in games, I do! But I try not to be blind. I try to open my eyes more to take it all in.

More of us need to open our eyes to give RPG worlds the attention they deserve and need. And similarly, the next time you're in the bar, put the ipad/iphone/gadget in your pocket and look around; take it in. Maybe we can all start to make this a habit. And maybe it can grow to be a good and healthy habit.

[skorge]

Not sure if this has been said yet (made it to page 5)...on p99 red they decided to take matters in their own hands on some issues. Items are not rechargeable on red, they also removed those red wands from dropping and adjusted other things on red...if they can do this on red, why not blue?

I agree with some of the TS points...items need to not be rechargeable on blue, and the whole PLing thing (hoggin a zone) needs to be fixed. I dont care about twinking and mq'ing...

[Smilkers]

some really good posts in this thread.

[vageta31]

I'd like to know what retarded servers some of you guys were playing on back in the day that claim power leveling, MQ, twinking, etc.. didn't exist in classic. I played on Rathe and I(and many others) were doing all of this stuff long before Kunark was released. I played a Druid to 50, quad kiting the watchmen in steamfont I might add, and the first thing I did was camp a ton of items to give to my newbie SK. Gave him a Rubi BP, Mith 2h, TBB, etc.. months and months before we even knew about Kunark. MQ was very popular for doing Sol Ro quests and tons of people were power leveling back in the day as well. Some of the methods have been refined over the years, but using mem blur and damage shields were all very well known.

I'm not saying I was some sort of Elite player, I'm saying that a ton of people were doing it including myself and friends so it wasn't as unknown as some are claming. If you weren't privy to that information at the time then that's fine, but you can't make a blanket statement that since you weren't aware of it then it didn't happen. The reason people don't want devs to fix any of this is because it existed on live. Whether or not it was intended is a completely moot point as the entire goal of this server is to "recreate classic everquest", the devs intent back in the day matters not because they never got around to fixing it till later.

We've had this same discussion countless times over hybrid exp. "But the devs eventually admitted that hybrid penalties were harsh and so they removed them, so why shouldn't we just change it now because it's going to happen eventually?"

Answer: Because it's not classic.

If the devs have decided not to change hybrid penalties yet, even though they know it eventually does get changed, then why would they fix any of the issues being brought up that weren't fixed until post Velious? Doing so opens up a huge can of worms and it's much easier to leave things be.

Most people coming here are doing it for nostalgic purposes. If you start changing a bunch of things that you think should be fixed, then a lot of people won't be happy as it won't be the EQ they remember. Twinking and PLing is fun for a lot of people, so by trying to take it out you're essentially being selfish and ruining others' fun in order to get what you want.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You start changing a bunch of things based on what "you" believe to be the developers original intent and what you end up with won't be classic everquest, but instead some sort of Frankenstein game that no one can recognize anymore. It's best to leave things as-is, and if you don't like it then try another server.

[Randarn]

the fuk u just say 2 me?

Well said Jeremy. Hilarous as always. I am even laughing now..minutes later. Stupid but effective.

-Trys