Shaman pets don't equip weapons!

[Byrjun]

Simple bug, if you give shaman pets weapons they don't equip them like other pets do. They continue to "bite."

Carrying rusty daggers (or whatever) around was a pretty essential part of playing a shaman back in the day, since this was the only way to ever make the shaman pets dual wield.

It also doesn't allow you to utilize proccing weapons, of course.

Edit: Here's a thread where people "discovered" that giving pets weapons allowed them to dual wield / proc:

http://samanna.net/CRUCIBLE_SAVES/pets_and_weapons.html

Of course, this mechanic existed long before that thread was created and some shaman knew of it, but things weren't talked about frequently in the open due to fear of nerfs.

Edit2: Also here:

http://samanna.net/sham.info/tips.shtml

Scroll down to "Dog Dog."

General wisdom is that pets will dual wield if given two one-handed weapons, so give them the cheapest ones - or ones that will can proc at that level.

[Nirgon]

Nope.

Non humanoids should not wield weapons.

There's a Legacy of Steel image of Hoshkar being slain in VP with 2 weapons on his loot table. He correctly claws in those images.

Similarly, shaman pets and giant snakes should not pierce but rather bite if they have giant snakes fangs on them or mage daggers or whatevas.

[Ele]

This was taken out in a patch last year.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65473&highlight=shaman

Specifically discussed by dev in this post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=561903&postcount=72

[Nirgon]

Should I ask him about mage swords proccing on non-summoned end of Kunark?

> : )

[heartbrand]

no idea how this hasn't been responded to yet, makes encounters 4x more difficult than they should be with all these quadding dragons and air mobs

[bizzum]

Nope.

Non humanoids should not wield weapons.

There's a Legacy of Steel image of Hoshkar being slain in VP with 2 weapons on his loot table. He correctly claws in those images.

Similarly, shaman pets and giant snakes should not pierce but rather bite if they have giant snakes fangs on them or mage daggers or whatevas.

Ill have you know that I got procced on a few times by Blade of the Falling Stars last Hoshkar, and it hurt. Lets fix this!

[Byrjun]

Nope.

Non humanoids should not wield weapons.

There's a Legacy of Steel image of Hoshkar being slain in VP with 2 weapons on his loot table. He correctly claws in those images.

Similarly, shaman pets and giant snakes should not pierce but rather bite if they have giant snakes fangs on them or mage daggers or whatevas.
Just because it sounds logical that non humanoids don't equip weapons doesn't always mean it's true. Trying to apply logic to EverQuest is a mistake. Shaman pets have always equipped weapons, and I've presented proof of this. I don't know about Hoshkar, and I'm not sure how that's relevant to shaman pets.

[TWDL_Prexus]

Your links are from 2002 forward. None of that info is useful here. Infact the second post on the first link reads: Shaman pet's dont use weapons. At least thats how its always been before.

This was changed after velious, aka it is correct on here, and probably will never change.

[Byrjun]

That person was found to be incorrect later in the thread. You can't point at 1 post as "proof" if it contradicts dozens surrounding it.

Saying that since it was posted in 2002 it can't be applicable is silly. Do you really think that Verant just randomly went and upgraded shamans by doing something silly like making their pets be able to equip weapons when they couldn't before? No. Not only does that make no sense, they had said that they felt that shamans were too powerful based on some of the mobs they were soloing in Velious. That's why this kind of information was held secret, and you can see people requesting that that thread get deleted since people were afraid that this would be nerfed now that it was posted on a public forum (the Shaman's Crucible, which was a very popular website during that time). Not a single person says "oh, this was recently changed, pets couldn't wield weapons before." It just happened to be a new discovery for the people in that thread at that time. Advanced mechanics such as these weren't universal knowledge during the first few years of the game, most players were pretty clueless about most of the things we know today.

I can find a post about Fippy Darkpaw from 2009 on Allakhazam, that doesn't mean that Fippy Darkpaw was not in the game until 2009.

I've posted proof that shaman pets did indeed equip weapons, if you would like to refute this then please provide your proof that they did not equip weapons. I'm not trying to sound rude here or anything, but I don't want this report to be influenced by other peoples' guesses and speculation.

[Ele]

I've posted proof that shaman pets did indeed equip weapons, if you would like to refute this then please provide your proof that they did not equip weapons. I'm not trying to sound rude here or anything, but I don't want this report to be influenced by other peoples' guesses and speculation.

You're going to need some evidence from 1999-2000 range because the dev that took shaman pet weapons out last year has evidence to the contrary.

Patch thread: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65473&highlight=shaman

Dev's evidence: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=561903&postcount=72

[Byrjun]

There's zero evidence there, unless you believe links that lead to 404 errors are evidence. I could also provide that same type of "evidence."

And from the random quotes, it appears to just be random people from who knows when guessing about game mechanics.

[Furme]

Just being the devil's advocate here..

But all of his proof says that shammy pets don't dual wield.. with exception to 2 people saying that they don't wield any weapons at all..

I will say I do remember trolling shamans on live around luclin era by buying a blade of firey lamentations and giving it to shammy pets during raids <.<

From what I understood, you could give them one weapon.. and they could proc it.. but they wouldn't dual wield weapons

[Byrjun]

Just being the devil's advocate here..

But all of his proof says that shammy pets don't dual wield.. with exception to 2 people saying that they don't wield any weapons at all..

I will say I do remember trolling shamans on live around luclin era by buying a blade of firey lamentations and giving it to shammy pets during raids <.<

From what I understood, you could give them one weapon.. and they could proc it.. but they wouldn't dual wield weapons

[Fri Sep 13 11:13:15 2002] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober tries to pierce a guard sonic wolf, but misses!
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober tries to pierce a guard sonic wolf, but misses!
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober slashes a guard sonic wolf for 47 points of damage.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober slashes a guard sonic wolf for 53 points of damage.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Taunting attacker, Master.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:17 2002] You say, 'Hail, a guard sonic wolf'

[Fri Sep 13 20:19:03 2002] A small mushroom's skin is rent by shards of velium.
[Fri Sep 13 20:21:59 2002] A small mushroom is stunned.

[Ele]

[Fri Sep 13 11:13:15 2002] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober tries to pierce a guard sonic wolf, but misses!
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober tries to pierce a guard sonic wolf, but misses!
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober slashes a guard sonic wolf for 47 points of damage.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Kober slashes a guard sonic wolf for 53 points of damage.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:16 2002] Taunting attacker, Master.
[Fri Sep 13 11:13:17 2002] You say, 'Hail, a guard sonic wolf'

Post Luclin, almost PoP-era log.

You're going to need to present something that has a date before December 2000 if you want to get this changed now or before December 2001 if you want it changed at all.

[Byrjun]

Your logic makes no sense and at this point I feel as though you're just trolling and nay-saying this thread because you don't want another class to gain an ability they should have.

[Ele]

Your logic makes no sense and at this point I feel as though you're just trolling and nay-saying this thread because you don't want another class to gain an ability they should have.

I'm trying to help you form the best bug report you can get in order to support your desired reversal of a decision that has already been implemented. If you review my other posts in this sub-forum you will see what it takes to get things like this changed.

You are wanting to implement a feature that a dev has already removed from P99 (link above, with his reasoning). You have the burden of proof to present evidence contemporaneous with the timeline for this server in order to get things changed. Otherwise, the dev's position stands.

All the evidence you have presented so far is outside the time line of this server, 1999 Launch -> Last patch before Luclin (December 2001).

Your position so far has boiled down to: Evidence from 2002+ shows this being implemented, so it was true for all of classic. Which doesn't add up considering the previous change implemented by the dev in question.

[Byrjun]

Basic logic is evident that the original devs would not have randomly added shaman pets being able to equip weapons during a time that they also stated that they felt they were too powerful. I'm just repeating myself here, but I'll restate some things. You're not going to find evidence of advanced mechanics / tricks from a period where the game was brand new and most people didn't even know how simple things like mez worked. Especially after instances such as necromancers openly recommending for others to give their pets fine steel daggers to reduce the delay, and having that nerfed. Even the person who originally posted the logs of the shaman pet dual wielding went back and deleted his post so this didn't become common knowledge, and that was in 2002. If this was indeed an intended change like you say, where are the patch notes? Where is the proof to the contrary? Why would shamans want this information to be kept secret if the devs themselves had added recently this feature? None of that makes sense, because it's incorrect.

This sort of reasoning is applied throughout our emulator project. For example, can anyone post a screenshot proving that rations cost 2sp 5cp during 1999? Probably not, however we are intelligent human beings who can reason that the price of rations probably didn't change since there was no reason to change a mechanic like that.

[Treats]

Consider. Although we *finally* get superior heal, a level 53 spell will
*not* channel through hits. I will likely find that for most occaisions I
am stuck using Greater because I can at least rely on it casting. The pet
is *weaker* than a Shadowknight's pet (one level higher but no dual wield).
The Poison DoT is 20% more damage. I costs 50% more mana!

Yes it does. The necro pet dual wields. The shaman pet does not
so the damage margin is a bit wider than 7 points.

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/browse_thread/thread/f7cc5bacfcd0a982?hl=en&noredirect=true

Necro pets get dual wield at 29. I'm not sure when magician pets
get it. Shaman pets don't get it at all.

All pets get double attack.

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/browse_thread/thread/7e65d168349316da/d0e1ffd1edcb7a46?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=do+weapons+really+matter+for+pets#d0e1ffd1edcb7a 46

[Furme]

http://i.imgur.com/NngDtSQl.jpg


None of those references truly clarify as to whether the wolf pet wields a weapon or not.. They all specifically state that the pet does not "DUAL WIELD".

There are posts from back then that say that pets wield no weapons.. but as was currently stated.. Most mechanics weren't actually known back then and people made guesses..

It could be more like most npcs where the pet would wield the weapon and proc it's effect.. but the attack text would be overridden to say bites regardless.

[Treats]

None of those references truly clarify as to whether the wolf pet wields a weapon or not.. They all specifically state that the pet does not "DUAL WIELD".

There are posts from back then that say that pets wield no weapons.. but as was currently stated.. Most mechanics weren't actually known back then and people made guesses..

It could be more like most npcs where the pet would wield the weapon and proc it's effect.. but the attack text would be overridden to say bites regardless.

C'mon, really?

If the pet cannot Dual Wield, please explain how he would be able to equip two weapons?????

The highest pet summoned by a Shaman at 55 DOES NOT auto dual wield, it is way too low.

There would be no other way for these people to know this other than actually GIVING THE PET WEAPONS.

I'm sure it could have been possible that the Shaman pet could wield a weapon, but only one.

[Furme]

C'mon, really?

If the pet cannot Dual Wield, please explain how he would be able to equip two weapons?????

The highest pet summoned by a Shaman at 55 DOES NOT auto dual wield, it is way too low.

There would be no other way for these people to know this other than actually GIVING THE PET WEAPONS.

I'm sure it could have been possible that the Shaman pet could wield a weapon, but only one.

I agree with you that the shaman pet shouldn't be able to wield 2 weapons (dual wield).. I'm trying to disagree with kanras' apparently removing the ability for shaman pets to wield weapons at all =x

[Treats]

I would guess this is what happened:

Prior to this patch on November 29, 2000 pets were regarded as NPCs.

They would have acted as Nirgon posted here at the start of the thread not being able to equip weapons:

Nope.

Non humanoids should not wield weapons.

There's a Legacy of Steel image of Hoshkar being slain in VP with 2 weapons on his loot table. He correctly claws in those images.

Similarly, shaman pets and giant snakes should not pierce but rather bite if they have giant snakes fangs on them or mage daggers or whatevas.

Random-effects on weapons carried by pets will now behave as if the pet is a player character rather than an NPC. The change last patch reduced them to a rate below player characters. As part of this patch, target-specific random effects will only work if the target is the intended type. For instance, a weapon that processes 'Dismiss Summoned' will only 'go off' on a summoned NPC instead of everything.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001129.html

After the patch they were regarded as Player characters so therefore able to equip a weapon? (But no dual wield)

[Byrjun]

Above patch notes are completely irrelevant, they're about pets proccing as NPCs (ie. summoned mage swords), and have nothing to do with the shaman pet's ability to equip weapons.

Bump.

[Ele]

Still waiting to see some evidence from 1999/2000.

I haven't been able to come up with anything.

[Treats]

Above patch notes are completely irrelevant, they're about pets proccing as NPCs (ie. summoned mage swords), and have nothing to do with the shaman pet's ability to equip weapons.

Bump.

How is it irrelevant?

I shouldn't have to explain this again.

It has everything to do with that patch because the Shaman pet is NOT A HUMANOID.

If something in Everquest was not a humanoid it could not equip weapons, period.

[nosto]

I think this thread needs to be broken down to its actual purpose. Is the purpose to report that it is a bug that a shaman pet does not utilize any ONE weapon that it is given (also including proc of said weapon)? Is the purpose to state that the pet should be able to wield two weapons and also proc? Or lastly, is the purpose to state that the pet should be able to just dual wield weapons. I see arguments on multiple topics and just wanted to keep the discussion on topic. I had a thread regarding this too and was referenced here by Ele.

[nosto]

Are threads like this considered a valid source?

https://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3010.html

09-26-2002, 04:02 AM
1) Yes, I give weapons to my DC pets to get a 4th attack out of them
2) I usualy give them fine steel weapons. The weapons don't affect the pets damage and on the delay I'm not sure. Never parsed it, but to my knowledge pet attack delay was fixed to a number like a year ago.

If you have a window that covers all the melee damage, you will notice that the pets "attack type" will change once you give them weapons (eg. from "bite" to slash or crush or whatever).

[TWDL_Prexus]

Are threads like this considered a valid source?

https://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3010.html

Negative.

Server will be ending in Velious. Need to show proof from before December of 2001(Luclin release). Or better yet from before December of 2000(Velious release). That post is from a month before PoP was released. The shaman pet was changed in Luclin.

[nosto]

I guess my question is moreso - what "sites" are considered valid sources? I will continue to look into information regarding it. But just want to know when and where to focus my efforts.

[Itap]

Normally patch notes are required, followed by correlating posts from allakhazam or a similar site.

In other words, lots of evidence, and making sure its in the relevant time period (Vanilla thru Kunark/Velious)

[fullmetalcoxman]

I guess my question is moreso - what "sites" are considered valid sources? I will continue to look into information regarding it. But just want to know when and where to focus my efforts.

It's not a site as much as a time. You need era appropriate evidence.

[Nirgon]

You'll also want to see the dates that Kunark was released and the dates that Velious started and ended.

[Byrjun]

Bump by the way, still not accurate/classic.

[Splorf22]

Just a memory, but I don't remember shaman pets using weapons in classic. And I played a mage, so my pet always had dual rune-swords even before classic. Weaponizing pets wasn't some magical coven knowledge like invis pulls.

[gortimer]

Shaman Pets (lvl 55) duel wield proccing weapons. This took place in kunark and velious. I was not high enough lvl in vanilla to know about that though. I find it kind of hilarious that this is even an issue. Pets used weapons. Every class's pets used weapons. The entire mystique about "you have to give your pet 2 weapons for it to dual wield" was because shaman pets needed 2. Other classes pets could dual wield right after summoning.

[JayN]

pets are nerfed up here bad already, way way to early anyways they wont change this.
Pets are comparable to the Lblue version on live now days.

[Rhun]

Shaman Pets (lvl 55) duel wield proccing weapons. This took place in kunark and velious. I was not high enough lvl in vanilla to know about that though. I find it kind of hilarious that this is even an issue. Pets used weapons. Every class's pets used weapons. The entire mystique about "you have to give your pet 2 weapons for it to dual wield" was because shaman pets needed 2. Other classes pets could dual wield right after summoning.

I remember it that way too. I only carried weapons with my enchanter and necro when they still altered delay (mostly bronze daggers or summoned daggers). Turned my necro pet into a gnome-guard killing machine and even made the enchanter animation very dangerous. Every enchanter did that back then. I was actually very pissed when they removed the delay alteration. So much that I quit the game for some time and deleted my 50 necro.
I also remember being thrilled about my shaman pet getting dual wield at 55, and carrying weapons around for that purpose. That was between Kunark or Velious and Luclin, because I remember not having the new graphics with my shaman, and I did turn them on as soon as they were released.

The first time I read the wiki about ALL pets always needing 2 weapons to dual wield, confused me a lot, because I remembered it completely different.

[koros]

Shaman pets could not equip weapons til PoP. I tried.

[koros]

I remember it that way too. I only carried weapons with my enchanter and necro when they still altered delay (mostly bronze daggers or summoned daggers). Turned my necro pet into a gnome-guard killing machine and even made the enchanter animation very dangerous. Every enchanter did that back then. I was actually very pissed when they removed the delay alteration. So much that I quit the game for some time and deleted my 50 necro.
I also remember being thrilled about my shaman pet getting dual wield at 55, and carrying weapons around for that purpose. That was between Kunark or Velious and Luclin, because I remember not having the new graphics with my shaman, and I did turn them on as soon as they were released.

The first time I read the wiki about ALL pets always needing 2 weapons to dual wield, confused me a lot, because I remembered it completely different.

So you're literally posting about the period pre-sept99? because I had a high level nec too, but that's the vast minority of all players. You also had a nec And enc that high? Only a few months into the game? I call BS

[Rhun]

So you're literally posting about the period pre-sept99? because I had a high level nec too, but that's the vast minority of all players. You also had a nec And enc that high? Only a few months into the game? I call BS

I had many chars. I actually had an erudite necro before I deleted him because of faction frustration at level 10 or so. Then I started over with a high elf paladin and leveled her to 30 or so and quit again. I started a necro again (dark elf this time) and leveled to about level 22 and quit the game for some time. I actually sold that account then. Then started again after 1 or 2 months and leveled a dark elf necro again to 50 and also leveled an enchanter to about 30 at the same time.

From March til September was a long time in EQ. I got my necro all in all from 1 to 50 in about one month. I call BS you ever played at that time, if you dont know that was possible.

[TWDL_Prexus]

Any of you that think the Shaman pets need to be changed, either post proof or let this thread die.

[Nimmersatt]

What about a valid proof they could not equip nor dual wield in 1999/2000 ?