Low Level Charm

[Striiker]

There is an ongoing discussion presently regarding the low level enchanter charms and how they are quite ineffective at lower levels.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9784

I contributed my experiences to that thread and wanted to mention it in the bugs section as this is most certainly broken. Charm at lower levels does not work anywhere close to what it did in classic (far from it). When I was leveling up my enchanter on live in early 2000, I was able to charm the various beetles and griffawns in North Karana and have my charm last close to max duration most often and frequently for the maximum duration. When I tried this on P1999, I found charm barely lasting more than a few seconds. I should note that my enchanter on P1999 and my enchanter on Live are identical in terms of race and statistics. This was sufficiently broken in that I gave up on charm and made use of my animation pet instead (far less enjoyable / effective).
I hope that this could get some development attention when time permits.

[Ropethunder]

Despite having 201 charm at level 12, I had charm breaking randomly and at short durations when charming greens, blues, and light blues. I always tashed first.

[Lazortag]

How long is charm "supposed" to last? What about for Bards? I'm very curious. Also some evidence would be great as this might make my bard even better.

[Dersk]

There are two different types of bard charm. The first one bards get lasts only three ticks and is mana-free. Higher level bard charms cost mana but can last over a minute.

Charm is "supposed" to last on average longer than what people are reporting here. Resist calculations have changed since launch, but given the relatively low resists on most classic mobs, tash plus a level difference generally made charm effective and max-duration charms could at least be seen. Instant breaks were always possible, but an average of less than 30s on anything that isn't extremely magic resistant is simply wrong.

[Malrubius]

Yeah, Chanter charm would usually last for awhile for dark blues even if your CHA wasn't all that great, as long as you Tashed first.

Instant or near-instant breaks were very memorable because they were very rare.


My GUESS is that the chance for charm to break was something like 1-2% per tick. In that case, at 1%, the charm would break, on average, after 50 ticks - or 5:00 minutes. At 2%, 2:30. And so on.

-Lower level mobs would *hugely* lower the percentage chance for charm to break per tick.
-Lowering MR (tash) would *significantly* lower the percentage chance for charm to break per tick.
-Raising CHA would *somewhat* lower the percentage chance for charm to break per tick.

These are averages of course, which is why charm could theoretically break on the first tick, or never break until the spell wears off.


Those are only guesstimates of course, and I pulled the percentages out of my butt - but it's leagues closer to classic than the current implementation.

[Striiker]

I just wanted to also note that the issue with charm apparently does not exist at higher levels as it functions exactly as I remember it on live. This is based upon anecdotal evidence submitted in the discussions by higher level enchanters here on P1999. They are getting full / near full duration charms. (I also was getting very long duration charms in my upper levels with my Enchanter on live.)

So, there's some calculation which is considerably off from where it should be for charm at lower levels. I don't know if this is associated with the spell itself or with the creatures at this level range. I am about to hit lvl 24 and get Beguile (our next spell in the charm line). I'll see how it works compared to my experiences at lvl 12 - 16 when I was trying to charm as I had on live.

[cerasa]

I hit 24 yesterday and hoped that beguile would be better than the level 4 charm. I charmed an aviak in Lake R and fought an add, then ran over to another camp with him. So I guess the charm lasted about 1 1/2 to 2 minutes for a dark blue. Is that about how long it should last?

[Dersk]

So I guess the charm lasted about 1 1/2 to 2 minutes for a dark blue. Is that about how long it should last?

The duration of one charm is wholly insufficient information.

[redghosthunter]

My experience with charm was .... holly hell i am sure getting a good workout with all this running. It did get better much later. My advice would be find a good group hang out in back till ya got some lvls on ya.

And yes Charm was nurfed. It was not like this for the people who started on the server. This discussion has been had many many times. If you do some digging you will see threads about charm and charm changed to dependent on resistance first and CHA second.

[Striiker]

My experience with charm was .... holly hell i am sure getting a good workout with all this running. It did get better much later. My advice would be find a good group hang out in back till ya got some lvls on ya.

And yes Charm was nurfed. It was not like this for the people who started on the server. This discussion has been had many many times. If you do some digging you will see threads about charm and charm changed to dependent on resistance first and CHA second.

I do love grouping, believe me! I prefer it far above soloing. That said, I sometimes don't have a huge block of time to commit to a group (2 hrs +) so I get some game time in soloing.

Regarding the charm nerf, I do not understand why this was done as this was not the way charm at lower level worked in classic and it is my understanding that the aim of the server is to be as true as possible to classic (the good and the bad). It appears that charm DOES work on the server as intended, but only for higher level charm and mobs. Low level is quite frankly, broken and not at all classic. I am not here to bitch and moan and demand that the volunteer devs drop everything to address this issue. I wanted to submit it as a bug and respectfully ask that it be added to the 'to do' list. (I made the mistake of assuming that problems I see have been submitted as a bug before, only to learn that it wasn't) It will not benefit me as I will have leveled and no longer have these issues. It would however benefit those who follow. I guess that when they launch a new server in a few years, it would benefit me as I would love to go through life as a new enchanter on a new world once again. :)

[Lazortag]

Sorry but I have another tangential question about the Bard Charm - how much does Cha affect it? I saw someone assert on Alla that having 100+ Cha was enough and that trying to gear your way to 160+ was a waste of time and only improved it marginally. Is this true? Or does having more cha have a more noticeable effect?

[Dersk]

Sorry but I have another tangential question about the Bard Charm - how much does Cha affect it? I saw someone assert on Alla that having 100+ Cha was enough and that trying to gear your way to 160+ was a waste of time and only improved it marginally. Is this true? Or does having more cha have a more noticeable effect?

This isn't something we can drop a formula to explain it. Low level mobs (relative to you) with low magic resistance suffer long and often full length charm durations. The higher the mob's level or magic resistance go up the more important charisma becomes.

[dali_lb]

Despite having 201 charm at level 12, I had charm breaking randomly and at short durations when charming greens, blues, and light blues. I always tashed first.

I suppose you mean charisma and not "charm"

Charisma has nothing whatsoever influence on charm spells.
Only thing that matters is if it resists it or not wich is a pure resist role nothing else.
There have always been these discussions, and people still havn't gotten it.
People do also discuss early breaks of charm, and I am 99% sure its a random thing how long the charm is working nothing else.

Again Charisma only matters on merchant prices up to 115 charisma. every cha point over there is worthless

[Malrubius]

I suppose you mean charisma and not "charm"

Charisma has nothing whatsoever influence on charm spells.
Only thing that matters is if it resists it or not wich is a pure resist role nothing else.
There have always been these discussions, and people still havn't gotten it.
People do also discuss early breaks of charm, and I am 99% sure its a random thing how long the charm is working nothing else.

Again Charisma only matters on merchant prices up to 115 charisma. every cha point over there is worthless

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Its possibly true now on Live, but we are talking about Classic. It was said repeatedly by Verant and shown by at least one near-classic-era log that CHA does have an effect on mezz, resisted lull aggro, and charm (both initial resist and duration).

You can read the documentation here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6733

You are correct however that some people still haven't gotten this. :p

[astarothel]

Level 13 enchanter now with 199cha.

Gonna run some tests on duration.

[Ropethunder]

I am level 39 with 233 charisma and charmed "Skipynn Stoneheart" (level 6 mob) in West Commonlands using the level 12 spell Charm. The charm lasted 1 minute 40 seconds..

[guineapig]

I am level 39 with 233 charisma and charmed "Skipynn Stoneheart" (level 6 mob) in West Commonlands using the level 12 spell Charm. The charm lasted 1 minute 40 seconds..

This is not bad info.

You should do this like at least 5 more times, noting each duration. Then another 5 times after casting tash.

Yoou need to see waht the average is since the duration is always going to be variable. Also you will be checking to see how much magic resistance enters into it. I'm assuming that on a low enough level mob casting tash might put them at zero magic resist.

[Ropethunder]

My point was that with those numbers I don't think it should even be possible for a level 6 to break charm before the full duration..

[mmiles8]

The common theme in your numerous threads about the impact of stats on the mechanics of your class, is that they are all isolated examples. Guineapig is giving you a primer in the scientific method.

If you suspect that something is bugged, you need a hypothesis, you need a way to determine the truthiness of your suspicions, and you need a large sample size.

For example, and if I had an enchanter and the inclination to do it myself, I would, here is how I would test these things.

Find a mob with a level range that varies both above and below current level.

Blue mob:

> Charm at 200 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 200 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha w/ tash 10 times

White mob:

> Charm at 200 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 200 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha w/ tash 10 times

Yellow mob:

> Charm at 200 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha no tash 10 times
> Charm at 200 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 150 cha w/ tash 10 times
> Charm at 100 cha w/ tash 10 times

Recording the durations for each attempt. You then have prelimiary data on your three variables, level, charisma, and magic resistance, and can see which of the three plays the biggest role, and to what extent, and can then do tests with a large enough sample size to get some meaningful statistics out of it, generally the community will do their own tests (peer reviewing), then you get some idea of how things are.

Then the devs have something concrete with which to rationalize what is, against what was, and in tangent with what should be.

[Ropethunder]

My point was that with those numbers I don't think it should even be possible for a level 6 to break charm before the full duration..

I'm not trying to provide statistics on the emulator. My question is that on LIVE should this have even been possible?

If yes then no need for statistics. If no then no need for statistics..

[mmiles8]

Yes, nothing is a guarantee. Just like how I can fail to make a clump of dough with a 15 trivial, with 191 baking.

[Ropethunder]

You can't compare baking to charming..

If you're so certain then please provide your source that it's perfectly normal for a decaying skeleton to instantly break a level 50 charm with 255 cha.

[mmiles8]

You wanted a simple yes or no answer and you got one. These boards are here to dicuss bugs, not sate your personal curiosity. If you don't like my analogy, feel free to do the research yourself.

You've been given the tools to do so.

[Ropethunder]

You wanted a simple yes or no answer and you got one.

And I clarified for you that I was a yes or no with some proof. I don't need you to be a magic 8 ball for me.

You're guessing and trying to convince me that it's right.

If you don't like my analogy, feel free to do the research yourself.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=59559

1) Enc lvl v. mob level. If the mob is higher level than you it gets a better chance to break charm. You can charm a yellow con, but do not expect it to last long.

2) Mob MR. Since mobs get a resist check every tick, the lower their MR the better

3) CHA. If the mob passes the other checks you get another shot with your cha. Low probability of success.

[Aeolwind]

Thing to remember the most here is that we don't have the original formulas and interactions between charisma and charm durations....hell between anything and anything. It's done on a what feels appropriate scale. While I agree a level 6 mob shouldn't break that fast all the time, occasionally yes it should. Random Number Generation is evil.

I have to agree with what Miles is saying, get us some hard data and if it's more off than what we expect we'll look into it.

[Striiker]

Thing to remember the most here is that we don't have the original formulas and interactions between charisma and charm durations....hell between anything and anything. It's done on a what feels appropriate scale. ...

I do not have any hard data to offer up. I just wanted to point out something which is certainly quite different from what live was in early 2000 when I played my enchanter. This is a qualitative observation I guess more than anything. The feel is way off on the low level charming.
As I had mentioned (and others too) Charming Griffawns and beetles in North Karana was a valid option for a low level enchanter. It is most certainly not an option on P99 as charm drops incredibly fast with great frequency. Perhaps someone will find some logs from long ago or some other information to satisfy the need for solid evidence. It will not benefit me any longer but I thought it should be mentioned for others starting out. Charming is one of our defining abilities and it's horribly broken (compared to what live was) and worth inspection / adjusting.

[Malrubius]

Below is a link to some hard stats (granted from PoP era, but still a lot closer to 1999 than live is now). The quote and link below are from a much more exhaustive post here (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6733).

Aeol, the post above has a lot of classic-era evidence beyond the piece below, although it is not hard numbers - more what Verant said they had done and how they had implemented things.


4 - Also, for the following *limited* test, which was unfortunately PoP-ERA :/, the data indicates the following...

With a 305 cha, and then, a 130 cha - and everything else that is relevant unchanged...

1 - Charm lasts ~10% longer with a 305 cha vs. 130 cha.
2 - Charm cast is completely RESISTED, MUCH more often with a lower cha (this surprised me).
3 - The guy's conclusion that #1 above corresponds to "almost no effect" is bogus imo. 10% is huge over time.

http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1148&sid=2e6bca7945bf6bcb2b735fa34e9b4a0f

[guineapig]

My point was that with those numbers I don't think it should even be possible for a level 6 to break charm before the full duration..

Yes it is possible.

Every mob has a chance for the charm to get resisted.
The mob also has a chance to break free of the charm every tick.
This is regardless of their level. The lower the level of the mob, the less the chance, but they still have a chance.

The reason why stats are important is because those are the numbers being checked.

If your charisma is maxed and the mobs magic resistance is below zero then, yeah in all likelihood charming a level 6 mob will last full duration. But we need to know if this was the case. In other words provide some information and we can provide answers.