Leapfrogging

[Rogean]

So I'm curious.

People who played live back in the day, on servers that did NOT have forced raid mob rotations, how did the GM's there handle a situation where Guild A is clearing trash towards a raid boss and is completely leapfrogged by Guild B which rushes to engage the mob when Guild A sits down to med. Obviously this is one large reason we are hesitant to go with a first to engage policy, but I'm curious to hear the answers and suggestions.

Also keep in mind there may frequently be situations where two guilds start clearing at the same time, leapfrogging eachother.

[azeth]

On Rodcet Nife the first guild to engage trash (drakes on the way to NToV named, trash Giants toward King etc) had a player-implemented "right" to whichever named they so choose.

If Zone X had named A + B. Guilds 1, 2, 3 could be inside waiting for forces to gather, but if Guild 4 shows up and starts clearing, they get whichever target they so choose.

In the situation where we saw camped mages for CoH, this same "rule" stayed true. GM's did get involved, unsure how frequently, and afaik the guild who best argued that it was the first to start clearing, was allowed to stay.

[Rogean]

Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On Rodcet Nife the first guild to engage trash (drakes on the way to NToV named, trash Giants toward King etc) had a player-implemented "right"

What if a guild starts clearing trash with only a single group while it waits for the rest of it's members to show up?

[azeth]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What if a guild starts clearing trash with only a single group while it waits for the rest of it's members to show up?

edited - It really (always) came down to who best provided proof they were first to start clearing with a reasonable amount of people. Reasonable meaning enough people to handle the target, not just the trash.

Guild 1 is sitting at the ent to NToV with 10 people (even a solid 10 people, main tank, clerics, whomever) and decides to start trash pulling while the remaining 10 show up for Eashen. If Guild 2 arrives 20 strong with Guild 1 still around 10, they would have been able to technically "leapfrog" Guild 1 by finishing trash pulls on the way to Eashen.

In the above example I can see where/how GM's would get involved if for instance Guild 1 (the one that was leapfrogged due to low numbers) ended up with 20 people in their raid before Guild 2 made it to Eashen.

So who technically gets the named? Consider - Guild 1 started trash, but without numbers. Guild 2 arrived with reasonable numbers and began trash, but Guild 1 accumulated a raid force before Eashen was engaged. In this instance I'm positive a GM would have granted the first chance at Eashen to Guild 2 IF they could provide proof via screenshot of Guild 1's numbers at the time Guild 2 engaged trash with a raid-sized force.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guild 1 is sitting at the ent to NToV with 10 people (even a solid 10 people, main tank, clerics, whomever) and decides to start trash pulling while the remaining 10 show up for Eashen. If Guild 2 arrives 20 strong with Guild 1 still around 10, they would have been able to technically "leapfrog" Guild 1 by finishing trash pulls on the way to Eashen.

In the above example I can see where/how GM's would get involved if for instance Guild 1 (the one that was leapfrogged due to low numbers) ended up with 20 people in their raid before Guild 2 made it to Eashen.

So who technically gets the named? Consider - Guild 1 started trash, but without numbers. Guild 2 arrived with reasonable numbers and began trash, but Guild 1 accumulated a raid force before Eashen was engaged. In this instance I'm positive a GM would have granted the first chance at Eashen to Guild 2 IF they could provide proof via screenshot of Guild 1's numbers (10 people) at the time Guild 2 engaged trash with a raid-sized force.

I'm not quoting this because I wrote it, but over a few pages I feel people have in their owns words agreed to the end result of this example.

Can anyone argue in this example that Guild 2 does not deserve rights to the first shot on Eashen?

[Chicka]

Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not quoting this because I wrote it, but over a few pages I feel people have in their owns words agreed to the end result of this example.

Can anyone argue in this example that Guild 2 does not deserve rights to the first shot on Eashen?

Sure, they haven't engaged. There are sometimes player rules regarding trash, but any guild could ignore those. Usually though, it is not trash but a key mob that defines the start of engagement with an encounter.

[Kelven]

Originally Posted by azeth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On Rodcet Nife the first guild to engage trash (drakes on the way to NToV named, trash Giants toward King etc) had a player-implemented "right" to whichever named they so choose.

If Zone X had named A + B. Guilds 1, 2, 3 could be inside waiting for forces to gather, but if Guild 4 shows up and starts clearing, they get whichever target they so choose.

In the situation where we saw camped mages for CoH, this same "rule" stayed true. GM's did get involved, unsure how frequently, and afaik the guild who best argued that it was the first to start clearing, was allowed to stay.

Azeth's statement is right on the nose.

Whoever starts clearing to the boss first, has claim. If you wiped then the next in line got to engage ( after 100% regen of the boss - this was highly enforced. )

If you started clearing with less then 2 groups, you were usually leapfrogged and ignored. BUT the force leapfrogging you must be large enough to take out the boss with the numbers they had leapfrogged you with.

ex:
Guild-A has 12 members and starts clearing FG's , Guild-B runs up with 14 members and tries to leapfrog you. This wasn't acceptable as the raid forces were too similar in numbers, you would have to jump the small group with at least 18-20+ people.

This also didn't apply if the forces were 20-25 members vs 40. Just because you're bigger, if the 20-25 man force started clearing before you did, they have rights.

( rotation was only adopted after guilds would repeatedly camp the same spawn over and over for days, claiming the "we cleared first" rights. )

[Melias]

During Luclin the first guild to kill Blob 1 in VT had claim to the rest of the zone until they left.

Also, single group clears for a raid were never really acknowledged.

GMs didn't intervene unless training occured (in which case it was ultimately just hearsay), or the other guild tried to killsteal the raid mob. They let the community sort it out 95% of the time.

[Bumamgar]

I never had GMs enforce any sort of leapfrogging rules for single named (ie: trash clearing in Fear or clearing down to the Royals in Chardok, etc). There were only two cases on EMarr where there were leapfrogging standards that were upheld by GMs: NToV in Velious and Vex Thal in Luclin. In both cases there was a "key mob" that once killed was considered claim to the rest of the wing/zone. For NToV it was Aary, and for VT it was Blob 1.

To avoid getting leapfrogged on single mobs guilds developed strategies to minimize the risk of being leapfrogged. For example, instead of clearing down to the royals, a common tactic was to pull them to the zoneline. Other tactics involved training away the trash so that the raid could move in to the main target without clearing, etc.

[Reiker]

Originally Posted by Bumamgar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never had GMs enforce any sort of leapfrogging rules for single named (ie: trash clearing in Fear or clearing down to the Royals in Chardok, etc). There were only two cases on EMarr where there were leapfrogging standards that were upheld by GMs: NToV in Velious and Vex Thal in Luclin. In both cases there was a "key mob" that once killed was considered claim to the rest of the wing/zone. For NToV it was Aary, and for VT it was Blob 1.

Pretty much my experiences in classic. In progression on one ever cared about "rights mobs" it was a complete free-for-all.