Raid Changes

[Daldolma]

Why are we proposing intricate and novel non-classic solutions to a problem that was created by an intricate and novel non-classic deviation?

The problem is that it's not classic. The solution is to make it classic. If people don't like classic, then obviously this isn't the server for them.

Can someone explain why classic is a bad idea on a server with the stated goal of reproducing classic, 1999 conditions?

[Lostprophets]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are we proposing intricate and novel non-classic solutions to a problem that was created by an intricate and novel non-classic deviation?

The problem is that it's not classic. The solution is to make it classic. If people don't like classic, then obviously this isn't the server for them.

Can someone explain why classic is a bad idea on a server with the stated goal of reproducing classic, 1999 conditions?

my suggestion is as as classic as we can get unless we're patching once a week. I'm not saying modifying variance I'm saying have a simulated weekly shut down on varying days (one per week) to be ideally like an emulation to a server patch day on live.

[SirAlvarex]

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but simulated repops every 2 weeks also adds another nice feature:

What if a bunch of TMO needs stuff off the "lesser" kills like Maestro or Inny? Sure, they could 2 group them, but there is a chance that they may decide to "pass" on contesting VS or Trak one repop and let a "lesser" guild have a chance.

One of the major butt-hurt issues with variance is someone has to track. So if TMO is tracking for 70 straight hours, of course they'll be pissed if someone else wants to get a shot when they've only been tracking 65 hours. If everyone knew when it'd pop? They could rotate.

We already have an example of this with Ragefire. Sure it makes sense to rotate him since epic'd clerics are awesome for all, but he also drops some amazing fire-resist armor (or atleast amazing IMO). But people still honored it.

So yeah, I think smaller variance with a bi-weekly repop will actually lower the stress of "must kill now!" to an extent where everyone won't have disdain for a high level guild that might be willing to share.

Just my 2 coppers.

[Slave]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Slave: Removing Variance is not an option, anyone that's been around this server since before it was implemented can tell you why. And it certainly will not alleviate the dominance of top guilds over the rest of them.. it will make matters worse, only it will be a clusterfuck for the staff as well.

I feel this is a bit arbitrary considering the massive amount of evidence associated with the exact opposite of this sentiment.

[Daldolma]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob.

Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying.

I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone?

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

This is actually a pretty reasonable idea; I'm surprised no one has pointed this out before.

All things being equal though I think racing is more fun than rotations. Its just that racing in the same zone doesn't work very well.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob.

Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying.

I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone?

Well said.

Asher

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation. It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob. Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying. I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone?

This is exactly what I've been trying to get across. It'll be a huge mess at first but it wouldn't take long for the players to get sick of it and work together to make the things better.

[arsenalpow]

If you want change boycott TMO.

Do not heal, buff, rez, port, buy-from, sell-to, communicate-with anyone that is tagged TMO. Period. Anytime you help TMO in any way you are condoning their attitude towards the rest of the server and the unethical actions they take.

Let TMO sustain themselves as a separate entity apart from the rest of the p99 community because TMO has no use for the rest of us.

Every. Single. Guild. On the server is willing to come to the table for the betterment of the server, except TMO. That speaks for itself.

Some of you may counter with "we'll not everyone in TMO is a dbag" and that's a perfectly true statement, but those upstanding individuals don't challenge their own leadership when shady shit happens. Staying silent to preserve the status quo (keeping the pixels flowing) is all that matters to them, the rest of us can fuck off. So you want to experience Veeshan's Peak? Gotta kill Trak first, good luck with that. Even if TMO wipes at Trak and your guild does kill it they FTE rules lawyer you out of the kill. Even if you do get enough keys to mount a VP force TMO can always legally train your raid. Yes, VP is a no GM interference zone, they can literally train the piss out of you so you can never raid in VP, the only recourse is to train them back, feel free to stoop to their despicable level.

BDA is willing to help anyone (except TMO, they don't need anyone but themselves) kill anything in our power, just get in contact with an officer and we'll arrange a time to assist. See you in Norrath.

[Lostprophets]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR;

I disagree with every statement you just wrote about TMO, if you have issues there check ur current guild roster and their past history with TMO.

TMO has offered plenty of people Childs tears for their shaman epics, Rotting fear loot, hell, Eccezan even invited me to kill Sev with them one day. TMO might be holding the ropes as top guild and get all the loot now, but they aren't a bad bunch if you get to know them, and not be dicks to them. the variance system is the problem, not them.

However, that's not even the issue here so please don't bring flaming into this thread, this is a serious matter..take that garb to RnF.