|
|
#51
07-20-2010, 01:41 PM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
Also, in the United States El Nino tends to cause warmer winters and wetter summers. In other words, above average precipitation, not above average heat.
__________________
Quote:
| ||||
|
Last edited by guineapig; 07-20-2010 at 01:48 PM..
|
|
||||
|
#52
07-20-2010, 01:54 PM
|
|||
|
there is no manmade global warming
welcome back to the 16th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Ice_Age | ||
|
|
|||
|
#53
07-20-2010, 02:04 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
Like so what if peoples lives are destroyed by this fanaticism on an extreme religious level, us poor sods just don't have the blind faith to believe I guess. So like things as cap and trade can be implemented, putting the US in it's place for all it's blasphemies against the holy environment. The UN can continue to try to slap the West and give the green light to countries like China to churn out mass pollution and gain great wealth. The West is simply ebil and needs to be destroyed, all the wealth carried to other parts of the world rather than they creating their own in the same free and open market fashion the West did. Meanwhile third world nations continue to suffer, held down by bogus regulation that makes it impossible for them to industrialize. Well let them eat cake. Then blame it on the US, say the US is the cause to their effect and drive their hatred, creating greater divides in preparation for WWIII. Once humanity no longer exists, well the holy environment can move forward once again w/o ebil people driving SUV's. Watch, you will see this chosen path become more visible in your lifetime. These top global warming guru's/environmentalists arent just liars, they have an agenda and it's just a means to an end. As Miller said, they are just a bunch of 3rd graders. Though my view of them is far more critical for sure. You didn't know what climategate was just a few hours ago, best to put some actual time into study rather than the first debunker blog you find on the internet. Disclaimer: Just thought I'd mention, I don't hate anyone for believing different nor think them lesser men. I just thought it best to mention that since this is a game forum and often people are not used to debates/discussions as happens at some other venues. I believe that truth is not relative thus in the end all will be known. No one has everything right, an it takes a lot of effort to find any of it now rather than later. I don't expect anyone to change their opinion/views in a sudden moment, as often it takes much time, research and reflection. This I know from first hand experience regarding the change of views.
__________________
| |||
|
Last edited by Daywolf; 07-20-2010 at 02:30 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#54
07-20-2010, 02:16 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
I will interpret for you... this is the strongest El Nino on record, the fact that El Nino has been getting stronger is tied into the warming... these are record monthly temperature averages, averages that include previous El Nino years. | |||
|
|
||||
|
#55
07-20-2010, 02:32 PM
|
||||
|
OK...here we go.
The "simple" argument that carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere - and there is no doubt that CO2 levels have been rising because of humans but as to whether this is greater than even a single major volcanic event is questionable - because warming relies on assumptions that may be quite false. More CO2 and it is possible you get more refraction at the equator (warming), but also more cloud (warming in the short term - seriously cooling in the longer term), a change in the albedo readings at all latitudes (warming or cooling depending on your theory). And this does not even take into account changes in so many other factors. The trouble is the study of climate with respect to these factors is all very new. The best weather programs can get the weather right about 80% of the time in temperate climates now four days out. That is a major advance over the last 50 years but try for seven days and the same programs are about as good as throwing darts at a board listing "hot", "cold", "rain", "clear". Personally, I think the earth is currently warming, man-made or not, which is actually a good thing considering a cooling event in contrast. Which is what we worried about in the 70's... and I'll get to that in a minute. Had the earth not changed to an interglacial period when it did, civilization would not have happened. That it lasted 11,000 years meant that man could actually develop civilization to a point that even a glaciation is probably not going to put us back in the stone age. If cooling had occurred when the mini ice age occurred about three hundred years ago, man would have gone right back to the stone age. That is pretty amazing. Warming? Another few degrees and the earth will be able to support far more agriculture than it presently does. Rainfall patterns would change dramatically so that the arid parts of Australia would become breadbaskets, as would more of Canada, parts of Africa, China and Russia. The downside is unlike the nice predictions of a few calorimeters of sea level rise, a real global warming will cause a very sudden shrinking or elimination of ice caps and major sea level rises, killing a great many of the world's population. But far worse for mankind would be a glaciation. The last model that I saw indicated the loss of around 90% of the world's population in 3 years and getting up to only a 2% survival 5 years out (this assumes a three year changeover or flip between interglacial periods and glaciations - a theory that does have significant evidence in support of it even if the prevailing teachings state that the change takes in the order of thousands of years). Which would you rather have? Problems because of warming that mean dislocation and movement of large amounts of the population but little loss of life due to starvation, etc, or a change something akin to the movie The Day After Tomorrow (I don't agree with the theories in that movie but I do agree with just how catastrophic a cooling event would be). I can only follow some of the studies and have not seen any detail of the latest study that suggests rapid loss of arctic ice coverage. I'll say that even the broad brush stuff that I have read, does not give me much faith in the validity of the predictions. If the ice coverage were really to melt as predicted, then it would ALL melt. The difference in the albedo readings of Greenland's ice coverage and Greenland without ice in the same places, is staggering. It goes from about 95% to about 35%. Thus the area warms rapidly as the ground warms up and the air close to the ground follows suit, and this warming then causes the ice fringes to melt, resulting in an accelerating process. The best estimate of the last thaw across North America was that at its peak when the retreating snow/ice coverage managed to reach around 50 kms per day. Yet the assumption of this study seems to be that the arctic warming will do no more than melt a percentage of the ice coverage. That just does not accord with historic evidence of both northern hemisphere retreat and return of ice in the last several cycles. Climate is so complicated that even working out what should be happening to a single glacier has proved to be nigh on impossible. Much of the glaciers in the world are historic remnants. Except that glaciers create their own mini climates, most should have melted thousands of years ago. Most have been retreating, sometimes rapidly and sometimes slowly, ever since the warming 11,000 years ago. Maybe - because this interglacial period is somewhat longer than has been the norm - we have finally reached the point where glaciers no longer are able to exist. Actually, I remember a theory of some time back that glacial retreat could actually be the cause of climate warming, when it reached a certain, unknown, critical point. I do not believe that any scientific evidence has been established yet that the world is warming other than because it has been in an interglacial period for a long time, or even if the longer trend is for continuing warming. I remember some years ago a major study was published concerning ocean temperatures. It was very detailed and the figures did seem to show the air temperatures just above the world's oceans had risen over the last 50 years. But there was a major flaw. The statistics were taken from ships records. The temperatures recorded had no controlled environment or a fixed methodology. Indeed, as ships became much larger, the distance between the ocean surface and where the temperatures were measured increased dramatically. Now the study authors had suggested a formula to take this into account (although this was not in the major findings of the report) but the formula seemed to be no more than a guess. Since the variables are immense, no simple formula can account for enough of them to return an accurate comparison. The same thing seems to happen with land temperatures but in a much more biased way. Most people with an interest in climate change or even recent historic weather for an area, are aware that, the trend has been for the last 80 years for land temperatures in the northern hemisphere to increase in cities and decrease in smaller communities. It would seem that temperatures for major cities are used in most studies with a formula attempting to negate the heat sink effect of massive injections of concrete into the hearts of those cities, and the major increase in application of heat absorbing and retaining materials in the surrounding areas of the city. I have yet to see any scientific study that shows a way to actually determine just how much a change this has caused. In order to do that, you need the temperatures to remain stable somewhere, so that the change in the city structure can be seen as the reason for any average temperature change. The trouble is there is no such thing as a stable temperature. Even in the most stable of periods in the earth's cycle of warming and cooling, there a fluctuations, year to year, and for several years at a time. The suggestion should be to only use land temperatures where the temperatures have accurately been recorded at exactly the same location for the study period, in a town with a population of no greater than 5,000, at least 80 kms from any city, where the recording area has not had any major change to its environs such as even a three story building being built within several hundred meters of it, or a car park being paved over, or even major trees being changed. One very big problem is that temperature recording equipment is periodically changed and in small towns, no one goes to the trouble of making sure that the new piece of equipment matches the old or a deferential is calculated and clearly inserted into the records. Even with all these problems, there are enough small towns that fit the criteria for studies to be done. They just do not seem to be done for any climate warming studies. You do not have to go back very long in time to find most earth sciences did not agree with plate tectonics as the major shaping force of our earth and its climate. Yet even though the scientists were in the vast majority, they were wrong. So I do not believe that because anyone can suggest that there are 25,000 scientists who accept global warming and a small number who do not, that this suggests anything other than once a theory gains favor it stays in favor, even in the face of damming counter evidence. A study of glacial retreat proves nothing but glaciers melt in interglacial periods - eventually. It might be that they are melting because the earth is warming but a study on the retreat does not prove that or even suggest it. The fact that northern hemisphere winters have actually been worse in the past few years also does not suggest that global warming is not occurring. The climate has not become more violent or unpredictable. While records have been broken with the number of Atlantic hurricanes recently, records are always broken,and overall, the frequency or severity of hurricanes or any other major climate event does not seemed to have taken a dive for the worse. The cause more damage because more people live in the areas and because of stupidity - such as building bridges and levies not capable of withstanding the force that a hurricane will one day exert. A 1979 study matched the years 1974-1979 to the years that preceded the last switch to a glaciation, from the evidence then available. This was a time when there was real concern about cooling. The then Soviets had managed to have five major wheat harvest fiascos because of temperature drops, areas in Canada had much greater ice flows than a decade before, snow fell and stayed on the ground much further south in Europe, parts of the Soviet Union and North America than for the previous decade. Many animal species seemed to be responding to triggers that had not been recorded by civilized man, some winter coats were not changing in certain species back to summer coats, some herd and pack behaviors had been observed to have changed to what some specialists suggested was the behavior required during a glaciation. But 1980 proved to turn it all around. There were several factors for this but all were events that were "special", thus seeming to alter the balance enough to stop what might have been a slide towards cooling. Personally, I was very glad it happened. I didn't want half of the Soviet Union to starve. That might have started WWIII. Global warming? It's possible. Has the scientific community proved it yet? Not in my view. Is it going to wreck the world? Much less than a cooling cycle. As to the world's climate, the only real assumption that one can make with total accuracy is that the world's climate is not a static thing and the earth will get warmer and cooler several times in the next 100,000 years. A cooling event is likely to kill off much of the world's population (which might be a good thing if you are a member of PETA or believe that the world cannot keep on supporting us humans without it eventually being destroyed by pollution, the using up of fossil fuels, loss of habitat and the earth's lungs in the form of forests, etc).
__________________
Klaatu (RED)- Fastest Rez Click in Norrath
Klaatu (BLUE) - Eternal 51 Mage Klattu (GREEN) - Baby Cleric Quote:
| |||
|
|
||||
|
#56
07-20-2010, 02:56 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
Even if I toss a chunk of ice into a pot of boiling water, takes some time to melt. If our seas are boiling, I think we have other things to worry about rather than with melting ice [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It's also pure speculation that levels would rise very much. Some say 20-60ft. Others 1-6ft. I tend to agree with the 1-6ft. I think it'd be cool to see Greenland become... green. Makes one wonder how it got it's name, eh? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
__________________
| |||
|
|
||||
|
#57
07-20-2010, 03:04 PM
|
|||||||
|
Quote:
Please don't take this as anything personal. Quote:
Quote:
For good or bad, humans are one of the most adaptable beings on the planet (due in no small part to technology). In other words, chances are humans will survive the next ice age even if most other beings won't. Of course there is always the chance (or is it likelihood?)that we destroy ourselves long before the next ice age happens. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
__________________
Quote:
| ||||||
|
Last edited by guineapig; 07-20-2010 at 04:04 PM..
|
|
||||||
|
#58
07-20-2010, 03:43 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
Since a common theme I often hear is that scientists aren't taking this or that into account, I will address your claim about urban heat sinks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7OdCOsMgCw | |||
|
|
||||
|
#59
07-20-2010, 04:40 PM
|
||||
|
Nutty? What's nutty about it, friend?
Disprove any of it. In a nutshell...I was saying that science can't measure climate accurately. I didn't say we couldn't understand it, but rather we can't measure it accurately. You know...methodology and observable results and all that other fun scientific stuff. We instead have to rely upon computer models that produce inaccurate results based on inaccurate and incomplete data. You know...GIGO. Judging from your rebuff...I'd guess that I know a heckuva lot more about it than you do. And I don't base my opinions on "Oh gee...that guy Peter Sinclair really sounds like he's knows what he's talkin' about. Got pretty pictures an' graphs and all kindsa good stuff!" Peter Sinclair? You do know he produces those videos, right? Over at Anthony Watt’s excellent blog about climate and global warming – Watt’s Up With That? – we see Peter Sinclair get absolutely schooled for his dishonest and ignorant attempt to substantiate anthropogenic global warming. Who is Peter Sinclair? He’s a radical environut who puts out a (usually) weekly series of YouTube video documentaries entitled “ Climate Crock of the Week” in which he attempts to “debunk” the science that disproves global warming. Generally, while we can give Mr. Sinclair an “A” for effort, his “refutations” amount to little more than handwaving with a little ad hominem thrown in as filler. This should not surprise us, since Mr. Sinclair is not a scientist. In fact, he is an “independent film producer” whose only claim to anything even remotely resembling a relevant background in this field is that he apparently sat in on one of Al Gore’s Climate Project seminars. This didn’t stop him from trying to attack the temperature tracking station work done by Watt (an accredited meteorologist), making a thorough hash of the attempt while he was at it. Watt takes him apart. Yeah. Now that's a credible source. To everyone interested...here's Watts' dressdown: Ouch!
__________________
Klaatu (RED)- Fastest Rez Click in Norrath
Klaatu (BLUE) - Eternal 51 Mage Klattu (GREEN) - Baby Cleric Quote:
| |||
|
Last edited by Humerox; 07-20-2010 at 08:18 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#60
07-21-2010, 01:12 AM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
meteorological forecasts ice age arid parts of Australia become breadbaskets warming will be beneficial loss of around 90% of the world's population Day After Tomorrow broad brush stuff plate tectonics damming counter evidence glacial retreat proves nothing WWIII the earth will get warmer and cooler several times in the next 100,000 years Brilliant conclusion! and PETA (because this just wouldn't be complete without a strawman) Say what you will about Peter Sinclair, at least he's coherent. Quote:
You disregard all the evidence from authority that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas, then cherry pick from all kinds of nuttiness. You are a cookie cutter denialist. | ||||
|
|
|||||
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
