Racism: the Dying Regime

[Vineyea]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.

I had to lol at this.

[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.

Just like future generations won't have to pay for what we're currently doing to the planet.

Just like we're not currently paying for the bills of previous generations, and generations ahead of us the same.

Just like we don't pay for every war we've ever fought or struggle we've endured in the form of memorial and cultural memory. I never experienced the Great Depression-- but do you think that its vestiges and legacy and lasting impression isn't there for everyone to see?

What about the Germans, who built the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in 1999? Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just ignore what happened during WW2 during previous generations and just move on already? Aren't they just making too big of a deal of the Holocaust, beating a dead horse, and everyone just needs to get over it because it's not like the Holocaust affected every aspect of our international order or cultural understanding of the world, history, and the depth of humanity, right?

Which "institutions" are "extinct" exactly? The police forces that empirically target and harass citizens of color at disproportionate rates for drug crimes, despite every bit of evidence leading to the idea that illegal drug transactions are a static occurrence across class and racial lines?

"Blacks continue to be faced with punishing unfairness and inequalities. Soaring rates of unemployment, discriminatory drug laws, disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food, unfair stop-and-frisk policies and “accidental” shootings of unarmed black men by the police — these and more are treated with indifference or contempt. We’re told to stop complaining, to get over it. No one cares. But that’s just the point of living in the United States. Somebody is supposed to care. Our elected officials, beginning with the president, are charged with the responsibility of listening to the needs, the grievances, the voices of the people — including people of color."

"Memory is life." Are you just painfully naive or trolling my ass?

[myriverse]

Originally Posted by Rhuma7 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There isn't suppose to be any differences lol

You're reply is exactly what I was talking about, how the general consensus of america is there is a race difference which = racism.

Bullshit! There has to be differences, and they are lovely! To deny there are differences is racist.

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like future generations won't have to pay for what we're currently doing to the planet.

Just like we're not currently paying for the bills of previous generations, and generations ahead of us the same.

Now you're linking environmentalism to racism? You broke your stretch armstrong when you were a kid didn't you?

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like we don't pay for every war we've ever fought or struggle we've endured in the form of memorial and cultural memory. I never experienced the Great Depression-- but do you think that its vestiges and legacy and lasting impression isn't there for everyone to see?

Outside of lines of text in a history book, it's not. Unless you are getting a masters in economics, after high school you won't hear a single word about the depression outside some barely founded comparisons to it when the GoP president tosses us into a recession. The same level of comparisons that compare 9/11 or the Boston Marathon Bombing to Pearl Harbor. Or you know, comparing environmental damage to racism.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about the Germans, who built the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in 1999? Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just ignore what happened during WW2 during previous generations and just move on already? Aren't they just making too big of a deal of the Holocaust, beating a dead horse, and everyone just needs to get over it because it's not like the Holocaust affected every aspect of our international order or cultural understanding of the world, history, and the depth of humanity, right?

A memorial was built. It's a memorial not a payment, let's try to stay on topic here. Germany paid their dues after WWII thanks to the Soviet Union. Or did you forget that they had their own 45 years of suffering via the Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain?
Does it excuse the Holocaust? Of course not, but both sides realize that making each other suffer further would be a barbaric exercise with no positive end outcomes. Then again we're talking about Europe and not Amurika so the things they do out there actually make sense some of the time.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which "institutions" are "extinct" exactly? The police forces that empirically target and harass citizens of color at disproportionate rates for drug crimes, despite every bit of evidence leading to the idea that illegal drug transactions are a static occurrence across class and racial lines?

Cops are pigs, tell me something I don't know. You however make the jump from blaming all white people for the actions of a select corrupt group. (The same way you blame the citizens for bullshit laws the government that I didn't vote for put into place).
It's interesting you concentrate on the drug war (which is close to seeing it's last days) and not any other forms of crime which statistically the small population of black people perform a gigantic percentage of those crimes, particularly against other black people. But we'll just ignore these facts because they detract from blaming whitey.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Blacks continue to be faced with punishing unfairness and inequalities. Soaring rates of unemployment, discriminatory drug laws, disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food, unfair stop-and-frisk policies and “accidental” shootings of unarmed black men by the police — these and more are treated with indifference or contempt. We’re told to stop complaining, to get over it. No one cares. But that’s just the point of living in the United States. Somebody is supposed to care. Our elected officials, beginning with the president, are charged with the responsibility of listening to the needs, the grievances, the voices of the people — including people of color."

You're kind of going in 6 different directions here, 3 of which I've addressed above and the others which aren't even on topic.
"disproportionate prison sentences, unequal access to health care and healthy food" are classist issues not racist issues. Stop trying to blame everything on race, you are the racist one in that discussion every time.

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Memory is life." Are you just painfully naive or trolling my ass?

Learn the difference between a memorial and a grudge and we can have a discussion without hate mongering. All you know how to do is blame blame blame. Why not come up with an actual solution for once if your vision is so much clearer than everyone else's?

[Sgt1stClassPerkerwood]

^i like you.

[Sgt1stClassPerkerwood]

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[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now you're linking environmentalism to racism? You broke your stretch armstrong when you were a kid didn't you?


... Or you know, comparing environmental damage to racism.

I want to bring to your attention that social issues intersect. The intersectionality of issues demonstrates critical thought by recognizing patterns of behavior and societal themes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_racism

Kind of like the way all of the trash from Manhattan gets dumped in front of Bronx and Queens neighborhoods for them to deal with. Or the way run-off from factories gets disproportionately dumped into poor, black areas because they have the least political representation and thus the smallest chance of raising a stink about major environmental hazards to their health. These are facts. Institutional racism and environmental concerns intersect, just as capitalism and environmentalism intersect. Similarly, class and race intersect. Class and race are intimately tied to each other, and in America, race more often than not determines the rigidity of your class and opportunities of social mobility. Again, it's not a "stretch" to say that environmentalism and feminism and racism and anti-capitalism all come together in certain ways. If they came from society and civilization and the way humans organize themselves, they have more in common than you give them credit for and have a common root.

All rage-induced flames between us aside, the world is a complex place. I don't consider anything in a vacuum, and try my hardest to check myself and be receptive to criticism if I do. I am 100% able to admit when I am wrong and will gladly amend my beliefs when I am because I place a greater value on truth and justice than being right in an argument when all cards are on the table. Do you think I find it fun and enjoyable to recognize that my history and rolemodels as a white man in America are totally fucked and riddled with horrific displays of callousness and crimes against humanity? Do you think I find it fun to disassociate myself with the ancestors on my father's side who came here in the 1600's and owned slaves? I do not find pleasure in breaking down things I should normally be proud of, but I am not proud. Other white people can be proud of their history-- I'm obviously fine with that. But we need to come together and recognize that we also have a fucked up side of history in this country that, by and large, has remained an open wound for many people. The way to pass from grief to acceptance is not to forget or pretend nothing happened. You may not have pain from your historical reference points in this country, but many people in this country do, and we need to validate that as a truth, as well.

I am not a "blame whitey" kind of guy, honestly. I often get angry at the excessive number of white people who deny the existence of racism or downplay the very real scars of our collective history. That's about it, though. I think white people can be allies, obviously. I don't think every white person in America needs to donate their paycheck to a black family for reparations or bow and grovel or something.

How do you differentiate between "grudge" and "memory"..? Isn't that kind of subjective, based entirely on which side you're viewing it from?

I'm very interest to know how you personally feel about:

1. American history as a whole, and
2. White peoples' historical place concerning blacks, Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans

[Rhuma7]

According to colonial records, the first slave owner in the United States was a black man.

Prior to 1655 there were no legal slaves in the colonies, only indentured servants. All masters were required to free their servants after their time was up. Seven years was the limit that an indentured servant could be held. Upon their release they were granted 50 acres of land. This included any Negro purchased from slave traders. Negros were also granted 50 acres upon their release.

Anthony Johnson was a Negro from modern-day Angola. He was brought to the US to work on a tobacco farm in 1619. In 1622 he was almost killed when Powhatan Indians attacked the farm. 52 out of 57 people on the farm perished in the attack. He married a female black servant while working on the farm.

When Anthony was released he was legally recognized as a “free Negro” and ran a successful farm. In 1651 he held 250 acres and five black indentured servants. In 1654, it was time for Anthony to release John Casor, a black indentured servant. Instead Anthony told Casor he was extending his time. Casor left and became employed by the free white man Robert Parker.

Anthony Johnson sued Robert Parker in the Northampton Court in 1654. In 1655, the court ruled that Anthony Johnson could hold John Casor indefinitely. The court gave judicial sanction for blacks to own slave of their own race. Thus Casor became the first permanent slave and Johnson the first slave owner.

Whites still could not legally hold a black servant as an indefinite slave until 1670. In that year, the colonial assembly passed legislation permitting free whites, blacks, and Indians the right to own blacks as slaves.

By 1699, the number of free blacks prompted fears of a “Negro insurrection.” Virginia Colonial ordered the repatriation of freed blacks back to Africa. Many blacks sold themselves to white masters so they would not have to go to Africa. This was the first effort to gently repatriate free blacks back to Africa. The modern nations of Sierra Leone and Liberia both originated as colonies of repatriated former black slaves.

However, black slave owners continued to thrive in the United States.

By 1830 there were 3,775 black families living in the South who owned black slaves. By 1860 there were about 3,000 slaves owned by black households in the city of New Orleans alone.

[mtb tripper]

Originally Posted by Vineyea [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not quite sure what the story is behind this sudden outrage and attention to racial and ethnic heritage on the forums. Honestly, I havn't watched T.V. for the past three months and I'm in a void of understanding concerning this latest thread of inquiry... It should be obvious to any educated person that the myth of racism is somehow, far be it from me why the fuck this is, striking a chord and becoming a subject of "debate".

There's nothing to see here. There's no real debate. I can argue about the fundamental nature of the space-time you exist in. The very environment you call home, being subject to rules derived from a guess, who's antecedent structure is a hypothetical law. I'm tired of this shit. Shut the fuck up already...

Do you want my prediction? It's this: the old racist fucks are going to die. Their children? Their children are going to be an ignorant minority. Eventually what? Eventually people in the future will mock our inquiry, not because the intellectual capacities to understand it are minimal, but because the 'achilles heel' refutation is simply intrinsic to any coherent understanding of an adequately modeled world.

And speaking of models, it's good for people to be educated in the historical context of the events we witness. I wasn't around in the 60's. I know there are people alive today who have seen, witnessed, experienced, and been poisoned by the racial animosity that makes up a good portion of this nation's history... To this end I suggest a book I wasn't able to finish when I first enrolled in college (it was a difficult read), and that is "waiting till the midnight hour: a narrative history of the black power movement in America".

Engaging in a debate with a comprehensive view is the best thing we can do. Having read that book or not, I understand that the differences between ethnicities is culture and skin color. There isn't too much more than that--- I defy anyone who would like to suggest otherwise.

...I don't mean to attack anybody here. There's no one person I'm aiming at. It isn't that I carry a grudge against this post or that. Instead the problem seems to be that I have generalized my experiences into more broad and encompassing princples. Those thingies are simply unacceptable. I offer these words of wisdom in their stead: "You know what I want to think of myself? As a human being. Because, I mean i don't want to be like "as Confucious say," but under the sky, under the heavens there is but one family. It just so happens that people are different." --Bruce Lee

The old fucks you speak of that are going to die, are veterans and heroes to this nation, and are the only true and respectable beings left on this earth

[Malice_Mizer]

Said this before, will say it again:

It is not all about slavery. Slavery is not the sole grievance where, if you prove multilateral culpability, the grievance is nullified. It's also not just about black Americans' history. It's about how white Americans interact(ed) with non-white people, and how they used the political and economic power they wield(ed) over others for centuries.