FE Raid Scene Proposal

[Fountree]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The incentive is there (as it was before the TMO suspension) to diminish participation in the raid scene, not expand it.

Lol so expanded now. Check the kill boards.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I Support amicable guilds! in no small part because of the support garnered by most guilds and people and it represents the wishes and desires of the super majority through compromise.

I would like to point out that in my opinion all of the "tier 2 guilds" have shown a propensity to work together as far as communication and being fair. While all of these guilds most certainly have a desire to kill raid mobs, they are also the ones who are reasonable, are willing to compromise and aren't trying to suppress the majority of the server. They aren't the ones training, stirring up rants and flames, and creating headaches with frapsquest and forumquest. In short the ones acting like more mature citizens of this server. I have no doubt the 'tier 2 guilds' won't be trying to hurt the other as far as epics, conversely I actually see cooperation and communication coming in those areas.

Quite simply I see people who want everything, and those who are willing to share. I see a collection of guilds who attend meetings to hash out a proposal they all can agree on on, regardless of whether or not it benefits them completely, and I see guilds who keep throwing up their own proposals almost haphazardly on the forums in what seems to me a desperate attempt to further their own desires; which, if you will pardon me, by actions for years on this server have shown to be nothing but selfish and petty. taunting the server with the fact guildbanks have 400 extra Cloak of flames, or Trakanon teeth, or AONS, or whatever item whatever guild in the past has listed has led to this. Maybe if you could have sufficed with 300 extra Trakanon teeth as opposed to 400, or whatever the number was/is things would be different. While I do not recommend we cling to the past, we must certainly take people at what their actions and deeds say, and the history of those very actions and deeds speaks for itself and has led us to this point. Those who fail to learn from history...

There is NOTHING preventing guilds from sharing or working together in more depth than the Divinity plan proposes, all that proposal does is lay a foundation to ensure there is SOME cooperation, sharing, fairness, or what have you. To suggest Divinity and Azure Guard (as an example) will be at odds over epic pieces is ludicrous to me. Perhaps the reason certain people cannot see things differently is because we see things as we are, not as they actually are. And it speaks volumes that the dissenting guilds to the Divinity proposal on the server are throwing new proposals up left and right incessantly in an effort to seemingly avoid what everyone else wants. Rogean specifically has expressed a desire to have things change, and there are direct quotes concerning this.

Server staff are tired of having one guild take raids to such hardcore extremes that they shit all over everyone else and make headaches for the server staff and the rest of the player base.

I'll sum this specific post in saying you have no one to blame for this but yourselves. And by you, I mean everyone who has been in a position at the top as far as raid content goes and had the capability to not be quite as selfish. I'm not judging anyone for wanting more for themselves, but IF one of those guilds had decided to (upon achieving that dominant position) decided to allow the more casual players to have shots at mobs, or allow people to get epics in some form of cooperation, we would not be here.

Now those who are in a position to make the server a better place for EVERYONE are the ones who have in essence, been shit on, for years. You have no one to blame but yourselves. WE have no one to blame but ourselves.

Originally Posted by Rogean
Whether you agree with it or not, we are no longer letting one or two guilds kill everything.

Deal with it.

Discussions will be kept in the raid discussion forum now.

[baramur]

People keep saying Compete against tier 1 in tier 1, its just like divinity, you roll just like divinity. The only difference is you roll against your tier and pick. If you want tier 1 loot you simply kill 2 mobs in 2month period and roll against tier 1 for slot while your in t1. If you need tier 2 loot you drop back down to tier 2 for 2 months and roll against the teir 2 for that period. Why are people saying Teir 1 is ffa during the 14 days...it is not.

[Unidus]

Personally I just think they need to increase the spawn times of all raid mobs until Velious. This whole situation is cause by 2.5 years of Kunark with to many 60s. Spawn times increased to 4 spawns per what used to be 1 and no more variance. Only rules you need are you can only kill them 1 time out of 4 to prevent hoarding. Trak spawns you kill him then the next 3 spawns you stay the hell away and go kill something else.

This gives every guild 4 chances at getting a mob and if you can't get a kill then learn to play better. Once Velious is here then normalize the spawns and FTE with enough people to kill the mob get to kill it. If you wipe and another guild is there then they get the next attempt. Not that hard.

[falkun]

I said T1 was FFA during the second half of the month, which is true. My concern is T1 being able to lock-out T2 without repercussions.

@Fountree: That occurred due to hastily set raid rules established quickly in good faith when TMO was first suspended. If GMs had thought that system sustainable, they wouldn't be banning everyone from raiding midnight tonight (Jan 2). CSR realizes its not sustainable, hence the pressure now.

[Funkutron5000]

Everything is FFA for the second half of the month. Kill 2 mobs out of the Trak/VS/CT/INNY/Outdoor dragon group in the FFA period in 2 months and then you get to rotate in on Trak/VS/CT/Inny. There is no lockout at all during the FFA period. It just asks you to put in a little bit of effort to earn your Rotation shots at those 4.

[falkun]

Doraf, preventing access is the problem for tier2 and the solution for tier1. Tier1 has always been about preventing access (see 200 Traks). Tier2 is about allowing access. Rogean's proposal allows tier1 guilds to prevent access to amongst each other and allowing tier2 guilds to open access amongst each other. The Divinity proposal allows the same, it just includes tier1 guilds in the open access first half of the month.

The FE proposal is BACK to preventing access. FE was heavily involved in Rogean proposal negotiations until it was revealed FE would get MORE mobs from the Divinity proposal. Now FE releases its own proposal that's based on the Divinity plan, but walls off (however low that wall is) raids. This feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So Corova, why are you locking those 4 out now? You weren't locking them out under the Rogean plan, and then you moved to the Divinity plan when you realized it would offer you more mobs than the Rogean plan. Again, this feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

[doraf]

That is completely fine, and that is the competitive dynamic of the system. IF every tier 2 guild did that (and they would need 2 FFA kills, not one - still manageable) then they could enter tier 1. And they would do this through COOPERATING - which is the goal.

I would point out, however, two things:

1. There would not be enough for EVERY Tier Two guild to do this - so the barriers to cooperating are in the end that the Tier Two guilds that brought about the collusion would have to accept that only a few of them would be able to move up and the others wouldnt. Like I said though, that is the beauty of it - there will never be a system where 100% cooperation yields 100% of what every party wants, our ability to cooperate should go hand in hand with our ability to make sacrifices as well;

2. The few guilds left in Tier Two would have alot of mobs to kill uncontested and Tier One would become over crowded; when Tier One gets to over 4 or 5 guilds, there is the potential that a guild may get nothing at all. I would think this would discourage people from staying in that Tier, or from leaving Tier Two in some instances.

However, the problem then is maintaining the status of Tier One. Not all the guilds in Tier One would be able to maintain that status - I would assume that at any point in time there could exist about 4 Tier One guilds without it getting too crazy - and hence many would be bumped down to tier two in two months...and it would proceed like this as long as we allow the system to exist. If the Tier Two guilds at that point wanted to do something similar, so be it. There are checks and balances on each side...cooperation will get you what you want, but it will not indefinitely put a lock on what you want. Cooperation will have to continue.

[Funkutron5000]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doraf, preventing access is the problem for tier2 and the solution for tier1. Tier1 has always been about preventing access (see 200 Traks). Tier2 is about allowing access. Rogean's proposal allows tier1 guilds to prevent access to amongst each other and allowing tier2 guilds to open access amongst each other. The Divinity proposal allows the same, it just includes tier1 guilds in the open access first half of the month.

The FE proposal is BACK to preventing access. FE was heavily involved in Rogean proposal negotiations until it was revealed FE would get MORE mobs from the Divinity proposal. Now FE releases its own proposal that's based on the Divinity plan, but walls off (however low that wall is) raids. This feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

So Corova, why are you locking those 4 out now? You weren't locking them out under the Rogean plan, and then you moved to the Divinity plan when you realized it would offer you more mobs than the Rogean plan. Again, this feels like FE is backing away from the negotiating table.

It's about us looking to make a compromise between both the GM proposal and the Divinity one.

We're looking for a way that both opens up more mobs to the server while also providing a bit of reward for giving a higher effort.

[falkun]

Also, how can you claim that effort is not as necessary as before? The only reason its been less effort is because TMO's been on raid suspension. Whenever this all gets figured out, TMO is back in the raiding game. The effort will get ramped right back up because none of these proposals address PNP issues. These proposals ignore PNP because its difficult to make hard and fast rules. These proposals have 1 playground where tier2 can police itself, and another where tier1 can police itself. The tiers are likely to police themselves very differently, and the Divinity and Rogean plans make that entirely possible. With this FE plan, especially the unaddressed loophole I've discussed at length, mob domination is rewarded. Why would any guild want to leave up any FFA mobs? Doing so would preclude any other guild from raiding for two weeks, so they could rotate with themselves. Having a plan founded on mob domination is where this plan falls apart. The Rogean and Divinity plans, and even the new Nilbog plan, are not based on mob domination.