Why do people seem to hate luclin so much?

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Daldaen and Secrets hit most of the pro-Luclin points already.

I think that other than zone/NPC graphic schemes, the biggest negative against Luclin is the lack of a traditional camp/PH style dungeon. Luclin has a ton of minimal-use flyover zones, but so do Velious and Kunark. There are a ton of camps in Luclin, but there is really no dungeon with the traditional camp/PH seen in Guk, SolB, Sebilis, Velketors, etc.

The closest thing to this would be Maiden's Eye (which was the most populated exp spot during SoL). Unfortunately, Maiden's Eye was outdoors and most of the good shit was no-drop. Fungus Grove mostly followed a random-drop model, Acrylia was an AE zone, and Umbral Plains was a plane with a few long spawn PHs.

As mentioned above, there was an abundance of camps and ways to make money in Luclin, you just had to be very pro-active and pre-form a group prior to reaching a destination. That 100% does not work with PUGs and imo, contributed heavily to the expansion's reception.

I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

Another argument I saw was the original development team wasn't around for Luclin. Far as I know, that's untrue. Most of hte original team were gone by 2002, but Luclin launched in late 2001, meaning at least some of the originals were still there during development. Now, it's true Verant was reorganized to become SOE in 2001, so perhaps some management changes happened after it was apparent Everquest was a huge success. BUT I haven't seen anything hard to prove that.

I do prefer the original Everquest up to Velious. I just think many of us over-romanticize things like the EC tunnel. Many also don't appreciate how large the world had become and why the Spires helped to actually strengthen the community by keeping it from being too widely dispersed.

I think it's primarily mudflation which ruined the early game. But this happens in all MMORPGs. You can't blame that on SOE or Smedly. It's a systemic problem. Mudflation attempts to cure an ever-inflating power divide between the lower levels and higher levels. That combined with things like too many zones and a decreasing new player population (and outdated tech) ended up butchering the early game.

Many players in WoW are going after classic WoW servers for the exact same reason we go after p1999. But probably 99% of the players are mistaken about who or what's to blame. I've only met a couple who realize much of teh blame is rooted in development habits and mudflation. Most never get that deep and just reside on the surface, assuming it's some crony in management trying to ruin their game.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think you're going to win this argument. There were a lot of PH's in Luclin.

I'd like to explore this some more though to see if there's any merit.

There's a lot of PHs, but there is no zone that fits what I'm saying.
Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I know this sounds specific, but it's really not. It's pretty much the blueprint for EQ's most beloved zones: Guk, Mistmoore, SolA, SolB, Sebilis, Karnors, Velketor's, Bastion of Thunder, etc. This is the case until the Cazic Revamp later on in Luclin. The Chardok revamp in Velious doesn't really count as Luclin, but its the closest thing until the CT revamp.

Just quickly going through Luclin zones and if they fit that model:
Akheva Ruins: No.
Dawnshroud Peaks: No.
Echo Caverns: No.
Fungus Grove: I know what you're thinking, but no.
Grieg's End: I love the original Griegs, but no.
Grimling Forest: No.
Hollowshade Moor: No.
Katta Castellum: No.
Marus Seru: No.
Mons Letalis: No.
Netherbian Lair: No
Paludal Caverns: No.
Sanctus Seru: No.
Shadeweaver's Thicket: No.
Shadow Haven: No.
Shar Vahl: No.
The Bazaar: No.
The Deep: I know what you're thinking, but no.
The Grey: PHs and good droppables, but no.
The Nexus: No
The Scarlet Desert: No.
The Tenebrous Mountains: Vampires castle, but mostly no.
The Twilight Sea: No.
The Umbral Plains: No (Essentially a planar zone w/ long respawn PHs)
Vex Thal: No.

The Maiden's Eye: Close, but not a dungeon and mostly no-drop stuff.

Ssraeshza Temple: Arguably Yes. I would just have to see it being used that way to believe it. There's a couple droppable items worth a buck, but the main reason people grouped there was Comm Rings. I can't imagine convincing a PUG to camp a anything else.

[Eliseus]

Your list is 100% biased. Some of those zones fit exactly what you claim they don't.

[pasi]

I'm definitely open to hear which. It's definitely biased by my experiences, but I'd love to hear what other servers grouped.

I left off Acrylia on accident which was originally going with the other 2 "sort of" ones. Acrylia is the most prolific AE zone in the game, but could potentially fit this model provided that it weren't always occupied by AE.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm definitely open to hear which. It's definitely biased by my experiences, but I'd love to hear what other servers grouped.

I left off Acrylia on accident which was originally going with the other 2 "sort of" ones. Acrylia is the most prolific AE zone in the game, but could potentially fit this model provided that it weren't always occupied by AE.

Ok I went through your posts, trying to find the common points. I produced this:

to be traditional camp/ph (in the flavor of Guk, SolA, SolB...), must be/have:
- dungeon
- well known camps
- mostly droppable (and worthwhile) gear
- short respawn named/ph
- PUG-friendly

cannot have/be:
- outdoors
- most of the worthwhile gear is no-drop
- random-drop model
- ae zone (what do you mean exactly by this?)
- mostly long spawn named/ph
- must be pro-active and pre-form group prior to reaching destination

How would you modify that?

I'm struggling to pin down what you're trying to say. Help me piece it together.

No offense intended, or sarcasm.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin did not have a traditional Guk-style dungeon with groups occupying well-known "camps" with short respawn nameds/PHs that mostly have droppable gear for loot.

I think this is a good litmus test to see if something is classic EQ or not.

*edit* also as of the first expansion the game became more and more 'less classic'. One of the things that I think defines EQ is what pasi says, that I quoted. There was a specific goal to start making the game less like this as early as the Kunark expansion.

The anger the player base had to camp over crowding promoted them to create random drops on mobs you find in kunark. The seb cloak, RBG, sarnak earring, BotH.. all that stuff is designed to reduce the core stuff some of us fans of the very original EQ think, defines EQ. Dungeons being over crowded and players camping static names.

Sure you may not feel that defines EQ becuse you came to your own during luclin.. but all that means is that though you like classic eq, you're nostalgic about something else.

I can tell you I was disappointed with EQ the first time I killed something with a unique name, that didnt drop anything. Something Kunark has in the vast majority over preKunark EQ.

So all I'm saying is if the game started changing as early as kunark, how can you expect fans of the original EQ to agree that an expansion that did something so brazen as to take players off the fucking planet, change all the character models, and add robot merchants for players, to be considered classic?!

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

robot merchants for players

Ak'Anon not classic!!1

[Beebo11]

I miss centi shortsword and centi longsword

[11bangbang]

i liked everything about luclin.

[Daldaen]

I dunno, people love Velious.

But Velious doesn't Really have a Guk style zone other than maybe Velketors. And Velketor's is really small for what is the Guk style part. There's the spiders which are maybe 2 camps and the dogs which are maybe 2 camps.

Ssra had an equal amount of named and camps, with more quests and better/more interesting raid content. The main difference being that Ssra loot is mostly No Drop. Whereas Velks is mostly tradeable.

No Drop makes you actually have to go out and quest or group your own gear, which I'm a big proponent of. However Kunark people can just flip stuff in EC and buy up whatever they want, which is dumb and not in the spirit of classic at all.

Beyond that though, Velious doesn't have many/any named/ph camp dungeons. There are dungeons like Dragon Necropolis or Siren's Grotto or Kael, but they are all dungeons with high numbers of trash and very few named/ph camps, if any. Which about describes most Luclin dungeons.