Pal VS DK

[phacemeltar]

if you want to keep enchanters/clerics alive roll paladin. if you want to keep yourself alive, roll sk.

[maskedmelon]

Durability: SKs can life tap and play the large races and those with regen. This means they can demand a lower man expenditure to maintain, except against casters against whom Paladins hold a significant advantage by being able to completely shut down a target's ability to cast by stun locking it.

Aggro Management: Both classes are very good at this, but Paladins are decidedly better at Damage-free threat generation, which is of use for building threat on mesmerized mobs. Paladins are also able to lull. While the efficacy of lull for pulling may be eclipsed by or on par with Feign Death (which SKs receive, but pal lies do not) it has the added benefit of navigating areas without invis as well as preventing aggro from repops mid-combat. Stuns also have the added benefit of protecting the group from trains if a mob attempts to gate.

Utility: SK can feign death to save their bacon. Paladins have no method to shed aggro, but do Eventually get short duration invulnerability in addition to a long refresh semi-complete heal (LoH). Paladins also receive standard cleric spells several levels behind clerics, which may be redundant considering for the most challenging content you will always want a cleric, but still amazing to consider that a level 60 paladin has all of a L49 cleric (including 90% res, sup heal and a HoT) sans CH. Given sufficient space and/or ingenuity, paladins can also perform cc very well w/ root. Paladins also get cancel magic which is often overlooked, but of tremendous value for removing damage shields as well as other beneficial buffs from your target.

I generally relied on FoL for aggro due to its ridiculously low mana cost. If I wasn't pulling and had no other cc though, I would use a heal to rip aggro from the puller and then spread the mobs out with root and then drop a stun on each rooted mob while sitting on the current target to ensure that any premature root breaks would send it to me. On easier mobs or prior to root, cycling flash of light on everything around works well to so long as you are able to absorb all that damage ^^

[kaev]

Originally Posted by phacemeltar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

if you want to keep enchanters/clerics alive roll paladin. if you want to keep yourself alive, roll sk.

High level SK has an excellent no damage agro option.
SK has snare, Paladin does not.
Paladin has stun & root, SK does not.
SK can pull with low chance of death when things don't work right.
Paladin can pull with high chance of death when things don't work right (and fotm dwarf Paladins have highest chance dying to a lull crit resist due to extreme ugliness.)
Good group play keeps support alive, even when the tank is a Warrior.

Paladin offers the most to a poorly skilled group, possibly can compensate well enough to keep everybody alive depending on just how bad his groupmates are.
SK offers the most to a well skilled group, pulling ability is grand in a two-tank group.
Warrior cannot really shine unless in a well skilled group.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Paladin offers the most to a poorly skilled group, possibly can compensate well enough to keep everybody alive depending on just how bad his groupmates are.
SK offers the most to a well skilled group, pulling ability is grand in a two-tank group.
Warrior cannot really shine unless in a well skilled group.

One of the most elegant responses I've seen ^^ +1 to you ^^

[Danth]

For zero-damage hate generation, Shadow Knights have Shadow Vortex, Shroud of Hate, and Shroud of Pain, as well as the area effect Wave of Enfeeblement. The Paladin gets its zero-damage spells much sooner, but in the long run the Shadow Night is at least the Paladin's equal for this job. As a rule the Paladin becomes more fun much sooner than the Shadow Knight; SK's fall into a bit of a rut in the middle levels where Paladins shine. Shadow Knights are a late-blooming class and I don't advise playing one unless the player is highly dedicated to it. Paladins, on the other hand, serve well as alts and mains both.

----------------------------------------------------

In any hybrid discussion it should be noted that the defacto reality on P1999 is that the vast majority of middle- and high-end guilds use only Warriors as tanks in raids, even on trash, and most the time the hybrids stand around neglected in the fluff groups. As such, a player who expects to raid on a hybrid should also consider the class's secondary roles when picking a class. Paladins are often assigned as tertiary healers, while Shadow Knights sometimes assist with pulling.

Danth

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by phacemeltar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

if you want to keep enchanters/clerics alive roll paladin. if you want to keep yourself alive, roll sk.

/thread

Aggro isn't that different, DPS isn't that different. The only real differentiating factor is the Paladin has heals and CC and the SK has FD.

The only thing that I would add is that if you want to keep your raid alive, roll warrior.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing that I would add is that if you want a raid to keep you alive, roll warrior.

FTFY ^^

[wormed]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

/thread

Aggro isn't that different, DPS isn't that different. The only real differentiating factor is the Paladin has heals and CC and the SK has FD.

The only thing that I would add is that if you want to keep your raid alive, roll warrior.

Clerics and enchanters? More like the raid. Not sure how many times I've LoH'd the warrior to save the raid.

Paladin's are definitely utility at 60 but I don't think people realize how useful we are when it comes to keeping the overall raid healthy/topped up/saved. But whatever, it's a thankless job.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by wormed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Clerics and enchanters? More like the raid. Not sure how many times I've LoH'd the warrior to save the raid.

Paladin's are definitely utility at 60 but I don't think people realize how useful we are when it comes to keeping the overall raid healthy/topped up/saved. But whatever, it's a thankless job.

To those who know how to play and have led raids, trust me when I say it's never a thankless job and it's always appreciated. Paladins get Superior healing, 90% rez, splash group heals, LoH, and a heal over time (soon, if not already in game). Paladins are effectively a ghetto priest on top of their tankly status.

Classic through velious ... and beyond well past Luclin/PoP, you can do some pretty awesome things with a core group of raiding paladins. I forget which encounters they were, but as a raid leader during PoP --> OOW time frame there were multiple times when our raid force was light on healing - encounters that required several mobs to be offtanked on top of the boss to fight. We would use either a group of 1 cleric 1 warrior and 4 paladins as MT + 4 OT or 5 paladins and a shaman as 5x OT + shaman to patch. Paladins would more or less take turns group healing everyone taking damage, and utilizing the group healing as splash patch healing for the MT and all other offtanks. At other times we would use them as dedicated patch healers during warrior defensive transitions and at the start of fights while the raid struggled to land a good set of debuffs/cripples/slows/etc. The staple, however, seemed to be using a paladin or 2 paladins in a group of dps in an aoe heavy fight. Paladins would attack away and then splash heal their group, thus freeing up more clerics/druids/shamans for targeted healing on the MT.

In short -- paladins make stellar additions to raids in Velious and beyond where things aren't always straightforward tank and spank fights lasting 10-30 seconds. Having a few paladins on your roster will make your raid force a lot more flexible. If you're light on healing, they make potent surrogates for priests in most duties.

I imagine the SK is more fun to play and can certainly pull off things that a paladin never will be able to ... but honestly paladins are all around superior from a grouping/raiding standpoint the majority of the time.

[Legday]

Originally Posted by wormed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But whatever, it's a thankless job.

Thanks Wormed.