If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[Daldolma]

I like when people try to pretend that "religion" dictates things like the average American's stance on gay marriage. This is where the frustration comes from. You're lashing out at the wrong bogeyman. Religion isn't the problem. Ignorance is.

Do you honestly think the Church's viewpoint on gay marriage is the reason it's been excluded from American law? If the Pope came out tomorrow and said gay marriage is just as valid as straight marriage, do you think even 1% more of Americans would be willing to vote in favor of gay marriage? Let me spare you the suspense: the answer is no. Ol' Billy Bob in Little Rock isn't voting in favor of gay marriage, period, ever. Homosexuality between adult men had been ridiculed and ostracized for thousands of years before Jesus was ever even born. It's a prejudice that existed long before religion, and would continue to exist thereafter.

Let's move onto capital punishment. Pope John Paul II issued an edict stating that in modern times, capital punishment should be practically obsolete, as it should not be used so long as there is a method to protect society from the offender without putting him to death (ie: imprisonment). Did that change anything in the US? Of course not. The Church is firmly against the use of condoms. Take a look at Trojan's quarterly numbers. Doesn't look like religion is really doing much there, either.

Was Christ a member of the NRA? Because somehow they still have a sizable constituency. Hitler, Stalin, Mao -- they managed to put together some of the most horrific atrocities in the history of our species without citing any religious justification. And literally millions of people cheered them on while they did it.

Organized religion opens its own can of worms -- it's not what this thread was originally about. It's entirely different from "belief in God". But even regarding organized religion, you're giving it more credit than it deserves. In America, when organized religion tells people what they want to hear, they listen. When it doesn't, they don't. It's not 1100 anymore. The vast majority of Americans live their lives based on prejudices and ignorances which are mostly or wholly independent of religion, even if they don't know it. People interpret religion to support whatever they want it to.

You show me where in the Bible it says stem cell research is illegal.

[chtulu]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by chtulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

No, you're missing the point. Religion didn't raise money and votes for Proposition 8. People did. They did it through the Mormon church. If the Mormon church didn't exist, they'd have done it through some anti-gay marriage PAC. In fact, that very trailer quotes a person saying that the Church was operating as a PAC. You're talking about "religion" as if it's forming people's opinions on the matter, when that is clearly not the case. As stated above, persecution against homosexuals pre-dates Jesus by thousands of years. In the case of its work on Proposition 8, the Mormon Church might as well have been the NRA. You're acting as if these viewpoints are being created by religion, when in reality, the religious entities you're pointing at are only being used as tools to legitimize and organize previously-held prejudices and beliefs.

[chtulu]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, you're missing the point. Religion didn't raise money and votes for Proposition 8. People did. They did it through the Mormon church. If the Mormon church didn't exist, they'd have done it through some anti-gay marriage PAC. In fact, that very trailer quotes a person saying that the Church was operating as a PAC. You're talking about "religion" as if it's forming people's opinions on the matter, when that is clearly not the case. As stated above, persecution against homosexuals pre-dates Jesus by thousands of years. In the case of its work on Proposition 8, the Mormon Church might as well have been the NRA. You're acting as if these viewpoints are being created by religion, when in reality, the religious entities you're pointing at are only being used as tools to legitimize and organize previously-held prejudices and beliefs.

Of course these view points are created by the church. Which bible DOESN'T say that homosexuality is a deadly sin? If religion wasn't around in the first place to brainwash people into it's agenda of right and wrong (that is quite hypocritical and morbid to say the lead) than our societies perspective on personal beliefs and lifestyles would be different.

Of course the mormon church was part of a PAC. But where do you think those anti gay movements and establishments got their seed of bigotry? It started somewhere, and Judaism is the oldest form of anti gay propaganda.

[Theldios]

Originally Posted by chtulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course these view points are created by the church. Which bible DOESN'T say that homosexuality is a deadly sin? If religion wasn't around in the first place to brainwash people into it's agenda of right and wrong (that is quite hypocritical and morbid to say the lead) than our societies perspective on personal beliefs and lifestyles would be different.

Of course the mormon church was part of a PAC. But where do you think those anti gay movements and establishments got their seed of bigotry? It started somewhere, and Judaism is the oldest form of anti gay propaganda.

Please quote for me passage and verse where itsays homosexuality is a deadly sin. Bet you can't