enchanter cha

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Originally Posted by Luminious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incorrect. Charisma does effect mez. Small effect but its there. Also not every mob in game can be mezzed.

I'll have to take your word for it

[Luminious]

Just to elaborate...
The charisma check for charm and mez is -1MR for every 10 CHA above 75 up to 255, every -10 CHA under 75 adds +6MR, this calc is applied only on initial cast.
Max benefit from this -18MR {(255 - 75)/10} on cast of mez or charm

Saving throw value against charm is calculated when a mob is charmed that value is static. Every tic the mob has a chance to break charm by exceeding the throwing save value. Meaning the mob doesn't get 3 saving throws against level, MR and CHA every tic, they save against a single value that is comprised of lvl, MR and CHA.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Where did you get those numbers from?n I've only recently recovered my forum account so I'm not up to date on what's been released but afaik background values have never been released for the project.

This formula also suggests a linear benefit all the way to 255 on charms which does not parse as such.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Ordrek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I realize we are mulling the finer points of something that barely matters, but since we are having this discussion and future enchanters may read this, it is worth taking the discussion a few steps further. Let's be honest, we're only arguing this because we, like most EQ players, have a spot of OCD perfectionism in us and want our toons to be "perfect" in our mental construct of them even if the difference between perfection and non-perfection is close to nil. That said, let's get to it!

Also, I will add my spin for Red, since that is where I play. I get it that Red concerns aren't Blue concerns, but Red has all the concerns of Blue and then some, so the Blue concerns will be addressed as well.

Any INT will get you to 200+ with raid gear. I think we all agree on this. The only real value of extra INT is that starting with more means you can better afford to use a non-raid piece in place of a raid piece because of some utility function it has. On blue, this can occasionally be useful but it is a more salient point on Red, where utility can be a big deal. Utility may take the form of a clicky, extra resist gear, or whatever you feel the situation calls for other than raw stats. It is safe to say that if both ERU and HIE dump 25 into CHA at creation, the ERU has at least 10 more INT. We know the exact value of 10 INT in this game. It isn't much when it comes down to raid gear, but it isn't nothing given the replacement potential already discussed.

The value of CHA is not quantified anywhere that I have found with specificity, so it is impossible to make claims about its relative value to other more quantifiable stats. All we know is "more is better up to 255." With both ERU and HIE dumping 25 into starting CHA, HIE has 10 more but we don't really know the value of 10 CHA other than, like INT, it gives us more space to replace items with non +CHA items.

The ERU +5 MR is similar to the other stats in that it allows replacement value for other stats, or to more easily stack it very high. This is far more valuable on Red where every last drop of MR can be helpful. Yes, ERU trade that MR for -5 DR, but most would agree this is a fairly inconsequential resist. On Red, it is arguably useful to have a LOWER DR because it means your friendly Necro/SK/priest of Bert can cast Disease Cloud on you without a resist, making you immune(ish) to being mezzed (because Rapture is still a thing).

Other stats are more of a mixed bag of "who cares?", but we might as well be complete. Erudites will probably want to dump their remaining 5 points into AGI so they can avoid the AC penalty that comes with sub 75 AGI. While this penalty is likely not in play while geared, you aren't always in gear and might be in gear that doesn't provide 5 AGI. Since HIE start with AGI above 75 (85 to be exact), they can do what they like with that remaining 5 stat points. Many HIE will put it into INT, making the difference between a ERU and HIE only 10 INT rather than 15. The HIE +10 AGI means they have +4 AC over an ERU. Woohoo.

That leaves a few other differences that barely matter, but they aren't nothing. Erudites have +5 STR and STA over HIE. The STA means ERU have a "whopping" +12hp over HIE at level 60. Woohoo. The STR obviously means the ERU can carry 5 more stone of weight. The weight capacity is a bigger deal on Red where reducing an enemy's STR in order to effectively snare them by putting them over weight capacity is a danger. It is also a nice convenience to carry a bit more of something when farming/leveling.

ERU and HIE have the same DEX (70), but who cares?

The final difference really is nothing: HIE have more WIS than ERU? How much more? I don't care, and neither should you.

Bottom line differences and their 1 to 5 scale of relative importance (IMO):

ERU: +5 MR (RATING: 3 for Blue, 4 for Red), +10 INT (probably. RATING: 3), +5 STR (RATING: 2), +5 STA (RATING: 1)
HIE: Infravision (RATING: 3), +10 CHA (RATING: 4), +10 AGI (RATING: 1)

You'll notice there are no 5s. That's because none of those things matter that much compared to things like Regen. In fact, if we're calling things like Regen a 5, none of these differences would rate above a 2. What does this mean for you? Pick the one with the model you can live with. If you are playing Red, ERU has a slight mechanical advantage. If you're playing Blue, HIE has an even slight-er mechanical advantage over ERU.

I personally really dislike the HIE male model/faces and don't like to cross dress sexes, which makes ERU the only choice.

So basically what you are saying is even though you asked for thoughts you pretty much had already decided before thoughts were given. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You won't get an arguement about 5MR on being superior on Red. But if you are looking for the same confirmation on blue you are not going to get it from me. CHA is king [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Luminious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just to elaborate...
The charisma check for charm and mez is -1MR for every 10 CHA above 75 up to 255, every -10 CHA under 75 adds +6MR, this calc is applied only on initial cast.
Max benefit from this -18MR {(255 - 75)/10} on cast of mez or charm

Saving throw value against charm is calculated when a mob is charmed that value is static. Every tic the mob has a chance to break charm by exceeding the throwing save value. Meaning the mob doesn't get 3 saving throws against level, MR and CHA every tic, they save against a single value that is comprised of lvl, MR and CHA.

Originally Posted by Yumyums Inmahtumtums [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where did you get those numbers from?n I've only recently recovered my forum account so I'm not up to date on what's been released but afaik background values have never been released for the project.

This formula also suggests a linear benefit all the way to 255 on charms which does not parse as such.

Id love to know this as well. Not saying its untrue but this is the first time I have ever seen this and the debate on CHA has gone on for 15 years. Your second paragraph is known, but its your first statment about the -1 MR per 10CHA that im really interested in.

[Luminious]

There is more to saving throws than just lvl, MR and CHA, but they aren't directly controllable.

EQemulator source code. Can't see why it would be different here. Falls inline with observation as well.

Spells.cpp line 4472-4478

Charisma ONLY effects the initial resist check when charm is cast with 10 CHA = -1 Resist mod up to 255 CHA (min ~ 75 cha)
Charisma less than ~ 75 gives a positive modifier to resist checks at approximate ratio of -10 CHA = +6 Resist.
Mez spells do same initial resist check as a above.
Lull spells only check charisma if initial cast is resisted to see if mob will aggro, same modifier/cap as above.
Charisma DOES NOT extend charm durations.
Fear resist chance is given a -20 resist modifier if CHA is < 100, from 100-255 it progressively reduces the negative mod to 0.
Fears verse undead DO NOT apply a charisma modifer. (Note: unknown Base1 values defined in undead fears do not effect duration).

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/spells.cpp

[Ordrek]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So basically what you are saying is even though you asked for thoughts you pretty much had already decided before thoughts were given. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You won't get an arguement about 5MR on being superior on Red. But if you are looking for the same confirmation on blue you are not going to get it from me. CHA is king [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't tell if you're being unnecessarily testy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just because I have my own well-reasoned opinions doesn't mean I'm not interested in those of others. The issue I run into most often in having differing opinions with others is that their opinions offer no reasoning at all, let alone being well-reasoned. "Charisma is king" without any justification strikes me as more of a catchphrase than informed advice. Perhaps there is more to it that you just haven't shared yet. In that case I would welcome the the exposition and give it due regard.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Ordrek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't tell if you're being unnecessarily testy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just because I have my own well-reasoned opinions doesn't mean I'm not interested in those of others. The issue I run into most often in having differing opinions with others is that their opinions offer no reasoning at all, let alone being well-reasoned. "Charisma is king" without any justification strikes me as more of a catchphrase than informed advice. Perhaps there is more to it that you just haven't shared yet. In that case I would welcome the the exposition and give it due regard.

The well informed advice has already been given in previous posts. So I keep it short with "CHA is King" because I don't feel it is necessary to keep repeating what has already been said. Whether you agree with it or not is your own deal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Bozena]

I can say, anecdotally, that going from something around 230 to something around 250 helped immensely (WAY fewer charm breaks!). At level 60, I was dying way too much in PoM (partially due to bad tactics), and I bought gear that I should've has at level 30 (or at level 1 if I were twinked): the CHA rings and another Opalline Earring, stuff like that. It was embarrassing to make a 300pp investment at level 60 and immediately realize I should've done it a long time ago.

Which is all to say: yep, CHA is king. Even past the soft cap.

[Crawdad]

Originally Posted by Luminious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is more to saving throws than just lvl, MR and CHA, but they aren't directly controllable.

EQemulator source code. Can't see why it would be different here. Falls inline with observation as well.

Spells.cpp line 4472-4478

Charisma ONLY effects the initial resist check when charm is cast with 10 CHA = -1 Resist mod up to 255 CHA (min ~ 75 cha)
Charisma less than ~ 75 gives a positive modifier to resist checks at approximate ratio of -10 CHA = +6 Resist.
Mez spells do same initial resist check as a above.
Lull spells only check charisma if initial cast is resisted to see if mob will aggro, same modifier/cap as above.
Charisma DOES NOT extend charm durations.
Fear resist chance is given a -20 resist modifier if CHA is < 100, from 100-255 it progressively reduces the negative mod to 0.
Fears verse undead DO NOT apply a charisma modifer. (Note: unknown Base1 values defined in undead fears do not effect duration).

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/spells.cpp

Underrated post. Thanks for the knowledge bomb. Particularly surprised by the fear mechanics-- does this apply to only Enchanter or for all fears? Seems like you would see enchanter fears being resisted a lot more often than necro.

Also, Cha is King. There's really no valid argument to stack anything but Cha>Hp>Int/Mana (depending on level/current int) as an Enchanter, especially in light of Luminious's post.. except maybe resist gear.

High Elf is the clear min/max choice. There's always going to be a 'best' choice from a min/max perspective. If you aren't a min/max'er it shouldn't matter to you. I can log on and play my Erudite enchanter and never have to rationalize it because (gasp) I enjoy playing an Erudite enchanter and I'm good at it. That's all it takes really [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]