New ToV Racing Rules

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have another definition for you to look up, you over-educated idiot. Jargon. Everyone understands what you mean by free ride. "The Free Rider Problem" might be more of an esoteric interest of business major tools in college, wearing their precious little suits while learning the best way to suck the blood out of our country.

You're thoughts on tracking and its relative importance to showing up are directly due to being led by the crazy fucks who ripped up TMO over the same issue. The real flaw is that your system doesn't consider tracking and attendance equal. When the hardcore trackers start thinking they are gods compared to lesser mortals, they do stupid things like gutting a top tier raid guild and taking all of it's members. And making new policies consistent their own play style.

You could track all you want, but if others don't show up it's a wasted effort. So the way around that is that EVERYONE tracks at the same time. And then you burn out your whole guild. Then Dottedup has to recruit the whole fucking EC tunnel again. It's absolute insanity and you idiots need a rotation for your own good before you start your own good, mental health, and person hygiene.

1) you seem to think I am one of the first and foremost proponents of making this server for trackers, when I never really advocated for a more elitist server. I never supported the Forsaken loot council for example (the way the trackers were rewarded the best items).

2) Its a FACT that those who don't track directly benefit from those that do (assuming their in a tracking guild). Its not a subjective debate. Its a free rider problem.

3) Dude, the free problem is not exactly graduate level jargon. Most people that have taken a few social science classes at a local community college knows what it means.

4) This isn't TMO 1 guild situation. I was never in TMO so ill have to take your word for it. This is a situation where we have two guilds competing with each other on a more or less even playing field. We absolutely do need to track unless we want the other guild to take everything. As long as there is 1 sad motherfucker on the server willing to track (inevitable), there will be tracking.

[Detoxx]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Has it been eliminated though? Because you've got a guy from your guild bitching about non-trackers going on about his elevated opinion of himself because he tracks. That exactly like our old guild (the bad one, not the good one).

I'm not sure who he is myself but if you do decide to track, you earn more dkp to spend. Simple as that. There are no other benefits.

[Raev]

You can't kill anything without FTE/tracking teams, but you also can't kill anything without people showing up. Especially considering that Velious encounters last more than 30 seconds.

However, due to the insanity of variance, both raid guilds are forced to field massive zergs in prime time in order to have a decent force late night. This makes the marginal contribution of the people 'who just show up' nearly zero during prime times. The new raid rules exacerbate this, because with 1 hour to log in both Awakened and Aftermath field 100+ players for content that was designed for 50.

[Cecily]

That was what I was fighting for the entire time back then. Thank you for making it a reality.

[evilkorn]

Voting yes for Cecily, see ya soon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) you seem to think I am one of the first and foremost proponents of making this server for trackers, when I never really advocated for a more elitist server. I never supported the Forsaken loot council for example (the way the trackers were rewarded the best items).

2) Its a FACT that those who don't track directly benefit from those that do (assuming their in a tracking guild). Its not a subjective debate. Its a free rider problem.

3) Dude, the free problem is not exactly graduate level jargon. Most people that have taken a few social science classes at a local community college knows what it means.

4) This isn't TMO 1 guild situation. I was never in TMO so ill have to take your word for it. This is a situation where we have two guilds competing with each other on a more or less even playing field. We absolutely do need to track unless we want the other guild to take everything. As long as there is 1 sad motherfucker on the server willing to track (inevitable), there will be tracking.

1. You took a stance that favors trackers over raiders. I feel that stance is stupid. To be a raiding guild you need to have people to track and people to kill. Failure to track means loss of mobs and encourages more people to track. Favoring the trackers in any way beyond allowing them accumulate DKP or the equivalent faster is good recipe for civil war. This echoes a very old and heated issue within TMO since we were disbanded. Worsened by the old Forceful Entry people who were used to crazy, chaotic, democratic debate over every conceivable issue including this.

2. It's a fact that anyone who logs on to help kill what you tracked is contributing and you should appreciate them for it. No one should feel like a dead beat, be looked down upon, or otherwise scorned for being unable or unwilling to participate in one facet of raiding. Yet I saw this happen so often and I absolutely despise anyone who would treat their guildies that way. If your guild ever makes you feel like the only way to contribute is to track constantly, leave. Trust me. Just leave.

3. No, your meaning was apparent immediately. I was simply making fun of your phrasing and you helped me understand with the most pretentious definition imaginable. How you meant it was jargon. I feel you should express yourself to a general audience in the plainest way possible. Otherwise you are being a pretentious asshole assuming a baseline level of education and that the things you know are universally understood by everyone. GOSH... IT'S ONLY 200 LEVEL ECONOMICS.

4. Oh a TWO guild situation. Well I'm from TMO so I wouldn't know anything about them fighting VD, BDA, FE, IB, or Rampage at various times. Disregard everything I said.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. You took a stance that favors trackers over raiders. I feel that stance is stupid. To be a raiding guild you need to have people to track and people to kill. Failure to track means loss of mobs and encourages more people to track. Favoring the trackers in any way beyond allowing them accumulate DKP or the equivalent faster is good recipe for civil war. This echoes a very old and heated issue within TMO since we were disbanded. Worsened by the old Forceful Entry people who were used to crazy, chaotic, democratic debate over every conceivable issue including this.

I never advocated for trackers to get loot counseled items. I merely pointed out why they were loot counseled items. It was Forsaken's way of combating the free rider problem. If you want a Gharn's Rock of Smashing you would need to track. Aftermath doesn't have this system now, which everyone agrees is an improvement. There is still a free rider problem.

I made a narrow point that there is a free rider problem, you are still in denial about this. You think that players that log into batphones are just as useful as those who will waste hours of their time tracking mobs. It just isn't the case. One activity is harder to find players willing to do, even when compensated with DKP. They are objectively less valuable to the organization. Both the competitive guilds on this server have more than a critical mass to down any mob in Velious. The valuable players are those that are willing to track and those that are good at FTE. They give more to the organization than those that just log in for batphones.

You presume too much. That because I observe this reality I want to create a guild that gives loot priority to trackers. I don't believe in giving the top trackers huge amounts of bonus DKP or loot preference because they just burn out and leave everyone high and dry.

[zanderklocke]

Originally Posted by evilkorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Voting yes for Cecily, see ya soon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does this mean?!

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The valuable players are those that are willing to track and those that are good at FTE. They give more to the organization than those that just log in for batphones.

This. This fucking attitude right there. No are they not. They are people putting in extra effort who get extra compensation. If you consider one type of person valuable, it follows that the rest aren't. To have that sentiment widespread in a guild will only serve to breed contempt. And boy that's been fun to listen to. With that being said, I honestly don't care how you wanna internally destroy your guild anymore.

[JurisDictum]

Look man, all I'm saying is that you are casual trash, and all these grabby casuals need to recognize my superiority as a tracker. I am entitled to first pick of all pixils, and the rest of you are just lucky to be on the ride.

Rather than having contempt for me. You should be thinking of how to emulate me. Don't try to tear me down, try to make something of yourselves. The problem is this new generation of casuals that thinks they deserve some of my pixils. They want to breed a culture of dependency where they sit on there ass and let me do the tracking and get almost as many items as me.

We need to encourage casuals to take personal responsibility. Maybe if they do, they could someday become trackers -- like myself. But any handouts until then will just encourage this culture of dependency where we award the takers for not tracking.