Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[ziggyholiday]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm hardly clueless about anything I've talked about here.

Except what the purpose of P99 is, dork.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by sonofbaal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you give druids better heals, do clerics get sow?

No.

*facepalm*

There is a vast difference between proper RPG class balancing (the original intent of EQ) and WoW class equalizing.

It's easier to balance PvE than it is PvP as well. This line of discussion really shouldn't be so difficult.

[mala]

i didnt read the rest of this as its just kind of running around in circles... but

"The fire pet would often not cast his damage shield as soon as you summon him and he wouldn't cast it when engaged in battle (which is right when you summon him if you're chain casting)." - Zuranthium

thats not how it works on here, the fire pet innately has his DS no matter what, and chain casting the pets is by far the most efficient way of soloing at later levels as a mage. Not trying to sound rude but you should prolly do a lil more research into how things are working on this server before commenting on class balance and such.

[Kassel]

Lets talk about forum balance.

[Extunarian]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When someone is a certified expert they don't have to cite textbook details for how something works.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When someone is a certified expert they don't have to cite textbook details

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When someone is a certified expert

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

certified expert

[Doors]

People like Zuranthium need sterilized. Making claims without any supporting evidence, then demanding people believe him because he is a "certified expert", a young guru if you would.

Then again what did you expect from a guy who, when he found this project, spent the first week here on the forums telling the devs who run it that they were doing it all wrong.

[etplante]

But dude, he's level 40 with 10k banked after only two weeks. This young jedi master is not just talking the talk, he's walking the walk.

[Doors]

Good point. I should seek this guru's council about everything in EQ life. As a certified expert, who are we underlings to argue with him?

[Hithrohir]

1.) Are Clerics absolutely REQUIRED for groups at the later levels? It used to be that you HAD to have a Cleric or else you literally couldn't group. Non-Cleric heals were far too inefficient. In my opinion, Clerics should only be a requirement for bosses and possibly a select amount of other game content. Druids should be able to function perfectly fine as the main healer for a party outside of those limited exceptions. Looking at the p1999 Wiki skill list, it appears that Druids are far behind.

It'll always depend on the content and the rest of the group, but generally speaking, a cleric is not required. Excluding CH (and Torpor, see below), there's not that big a difference in the efficiency of the heals, just the size. Most group content does not require constant CH on the tank, so if you're in Karnor's Castle or something, any priest class can function as a healer. If there's an enchanter and/or bard in the group, there should be no issue with a druid or shaman healing the group.

A note on Torpor is that it's an extremely mana efficient heal to use on the tank provided that they aren't taking burst damage (which slow generally ensures) and aren't hindered by the debuff provided by Torpor. Thus, if the tank is well-geared and a bit over-leveled for the content, a shaman - with their already excellent mana management - can easily heal a group in anything but the toughest content. Torpor is a high-level and rather rare spell, however, so it's likely that the shaman is done with one-group content by the time he has it. I've always considered druids by far the worst of the priest classes for healing as they just don't have anything but their sub-par heals, lacking both a better alternative and a strong mana management tool.

Druids were roundly considered one of the most useless classes once the expansions came along. They were called upon for teleports to certain areas to save time and that's it. They weren't able to do ANYTHING else of value and were completely outclassed by Shaman, who had the same level of healing + excellent self energy regen + the most powerful slow debuff in the game + they could do MORE damage (and for less energy expended) because of having a worthwhile Pet and good haste spells and comparable DoT's/DD's + they got other buffs/debuffs that were a bit better (+Attribute buffs of every kind and the Malaise debuffs) and they even got SoW!!!

Druid is indeed one of the worst classes in the game, together with ranger. They can do a lot of things okay-ish, but that's the issue: you probably never wish to bring a druid, and doing so is generally a compromise when you couldn't find a more focused class. They can be convenient for their SoW and ports, but that doesn't make your group stronger. They have decent utility, lackluster buffs, but much of it is provided by other classes. I can't think of any realistic scenario where a druid's role isn't better served by some other class. It became a nice and easy class for casual solo players, the proverbial suburban mom who just wanted to putter around and not be hindered too much by travel, gear requirments, or the need or inability to group. A well-played druid can serve well in a group or raid, but that player could probably have done better with another class. Some people can't see through this illusion and harbor the misconception that druids are good because they saw a few skilled veterans playing druids well.

Having teleports does not balance out getting a Pet, the best slow debuff in the game, other buffs/debuffs that are superior in general, and excellent self energy regen to power all of those abilities even further and more efficiently! In my mind, these classes would only be balanced if:

*Druids could heal significantly better than Shaman...even with heals that were closer to Clerics, the Druid would still not actually be as efficient of a "defensive" character as the Shaman, considering how the latter class gets the best slow in the game and self energy regen to power their heals/debuffs.

*Shaman did not get pets...this is extra free damage that is a slap in the face to the INT casters, as it makes the Shaman capable of doing more damage over time than those classes. Very imbalanced how a powerful defensive class is additionally capable of producing more damage over time than a class entirely dedicated to offense!

It's kind of a pointless discussion because this server doesn't attempt to balance the game, but if you wanted to make each class a viable healer, you could just give them each an aspect of healing to excel at. Give shamans strong HoTs to complement their buffs and debuffs, give druids fast, mana-efficient heals for emergency and reaction healing, and give clerics the big tank heals and group heals.


I'm not really interested in the spellcaster damage part, but the core of that issue stems from the fact that a) mana regen isn't fast or flexible enough to match melee DPS and b) caster itemization was crap until Velious and didn't become remotely balanced until much later. We're still at a point in the game where caster gear pretty much just gives hp and mana, and none of it affects your actual damage output. That's the design flaw that hinders those classes.

[Stormhowl]

Jeez, this thread should be referenced on wikipedia or something as an example of an Argument from Authority fallacy.

So. Fail.