Project 1999

Go Back   Project 1999 > Class Discussions > Priests

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-10-2020, 07:24 PM
whippetofspades whippetofspades is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.
This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.
  #2  
Old 07-10-2020, 07:36 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
Planar Protector

DeathsSilkyMist's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippetofspades [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.
FSI is very quantifiable, this is why people prefer it! If you are willing to read my previous posts here, I give plenty of examples of quantifiable situations, ones I have experienced first hand.

FSI matters when you do not have control of a situation. Those kinds of situations include having unslowed mobs hitting you.

In a fully controlled situation, where the mob is slowed and not resisting, neither FSI or Regeneration will help you. Shaman racial bonuses only matter in specific scenarios once you have Torpor.
__________________
  #3  
Old 07-10-2020, 08:08 PM
Danth Danth is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,277
Default

I've said it before, I'll say it again: By far the largest advantage gained from ogre bash resistance is a confidence boost for those players who are otherwise a little unsure of themselves. For that portion of players, the feeling of having a perceived advantage far outweighs the actual potency (or lack therof) of bash resistance. Beyond that, some folks simply hate being stunned now and then. None of this should be interpreted as condescending. Far from it: Feeling confident about a character and enjoying its mechanics are critical if a player intends to succeed at taking that character to 60 and beyond. Few players stick with a character very long if they feel like they made a mistake when they created it.

Danth
  #4  
Old 07-10-2020, 08:31 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
Planar Protector

DeathsSilkyMist's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I've said it before, I'll say it again: By far the largest advantage gained from ogre bash resistance is a confidence boost for those players who are otherwise a little unsure of themselves. For that portion of players, the feeling of having a perceived advantage far outweighs the actual potency (or lack therof) of bash resistance. Beyond that, some folks simply hate being stunned now and then. None of this should be interpreted as condescending. Far from it: Feeling confident about a character and enjoying its mechanics are critical if a player intends to succeed at taking that character to 60 and beyond. Few players stick with a character very long if they feel like they made a mistake when they created it.

Danth
It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.
__________________
  #5  
Old 07-11-2020, 01:50 AM
Crede Crede is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,999
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.
Let me reword your last sentence....

The answer is FSI(when you’re taking hits).

Raid and group shamans are not being hit 99.9% of the time. This is giving Trolls an advantage, your health will not always be at full, and the longer you aren’t at full which should be happening since you shouldn’t be torporing nonstop if you don’t have to, the more mana racial regen actually saves.

if you exclusively want to just go around soloing shit then yea I guess if snare isn’t needed on a mob then I’d probably want to be an ogre too in a solo situation. But literally every other scenario troll regen wins. Don’t care what your math says, ogres are NOT in any way better than trolls in group and raid situations where they aren’t tanking.

The fact that troll is a superior race in the majority of scenarios makes them the best min max race.

FSI is about convenience, not efficiency which is what the essence of min max is. Regen is indisputable efficiency, FSI is a security blanket.
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:34 AM.


Everquest is a registered trademark of Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Project 1999 is not associated or affiliated in any way with Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.