Melee Worthlessness - The Biggest Balance Problem There Is

[Sabin76]

Originally Posted by NPC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Because Wizards were supposed to be the magic damage dealing class and needed something to differentiate themselves from mages. That's why only wizards get Fire, Ice ,and Magic based damage spells and have the lowest resist spells for those types of damage. Does it come close to making up for not having pet? No, mages still have Malo which makes their spells land better anyway, cause that makes sense right?

Not compared to Lures... not by a long shot.

Conceptually, it just doesn't seem fitting that the class who's description revolves around the elements can't cast any spells other than a pet that are #NotFireorMagic.

Back to the topic at hand, I wonder how much better it would feel for melee classes if spell components were much rarer than they currently are (not Kunark+ spell drops, I think those seem to be about right)? Think about it, where a melee class progresses through equipment, a caster progresses through spells. No amount of equipment is going to make a wizard cast Ice Shock any faster or have it hit any harder. But get the mats for Ice Comet and you've now got that potential.

Many key spells for INT casters are gated behind research, but by the end of Vanilla there are only a couple spells that sell for above 1k (mostly because the materials ARE rare drops *cough* Words of WhatInTarnation *cough*), while melee gear is orders of magnitude more expensive.

Or make it the anti-mischief server. Spell drops and components are on specific mobs (or at least specific areas) that then become contested and much more expensive as a result.

Not that we'd ever see this here, but it's an interesting thought experiment to me.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Sabin76 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not compared to Lures... not by a long shot.

Conceptually, it just doesn't seem fitting that the class who's description revolves around the elements can't cast any spells other than a pet that are #NotFireorMagic.

Back to the topic at hand, I wonder how much better it would feel for melee classes if spell components were much rarer than they currently are (not Kunark+ spell drops, I think those seem to be about right)? Think about it, where a melee class progresses through equipment, a caster progresses through spells. No amount of equipment is going to make a wizard cast Ice Shock any faster or have it hit any harder. But get the mats for Ice Comet and you've now got that potential.

Many key spells for INT casters are gated behind research, but by the end of Vanilla there are only a couple spells that sell for above 1k (mostly because the materials ARE rare drops *cough* Words of WhatInTarnation *cough*), while melee gear is orders of magnitude more expensive.

Or make it the anti-mischief server. Spell drops and components are on specific mobs (or at least specific areas) that then become contested and much more expensive as a result.

Not that we'd ever see this here, but it's an interesting thought experiment to me.

One part your missing though is the definition of rare. For example many mage spell components aren’t ultra rare but they are also not easy to get by any means. As the server progresses those components are also harder to find for sale from players as many people think most people who would need them have already leveled past the point where they would and most players also won’t spend the time creating and auctioning a lower level spell because the prices just progressively get cheaper and cheaper as more plat comes into the economy.

So you have a pretty decent lack of supply from player auctions while also having to find some pretty annoying components

[Danth]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One part your missing though is the definition of rare. For example many mage spell components aren’t ultra rare but they are also not easy to get by any means. As the server progresses those components are also harder to find for sale from players as many people think most people who would need them have already leveled past the point where they would and most players also won’t spend the time creating and auctioning a lower level spell because the prices just progressively get cheaper and cheaper as more plat comes into the economy.

So you have a pretty decent lack of supply from player auctions while also having to find some pretty annoying components

Right. Same thing does actually happen with melee equipment: Low/mid level equipment is, for the most part, starting to get kind of hard to find on P1999 if a player wants some specific piece. Thing is, with melee equipment there are a bunch of options so a player who doesn't find exactly what he wants can still find something else that does the job about as well. Not so with spells. There aren't a lot of dropped spells (or researched spells) for any given class, and nearly all dropped spells are class-specific, meaning a caster either finds a specific spell that probably isn't worth someone's time to bother trying to sell or he goes without because there aren't options for spells the same way there are for pieces of melee equipment. Some Warrior wants a Silvery War Axe, can't find one for sale, so he buys a Langseax instead and he doesn't care because it's pretty much the same thing. Some Enchanter can't find a Salil's Writ 174, tough beans, no Gravity Flux for him, because there aren't any options.

Add in the complete lack of spellcaster scaling in this game and I think we can agree that for all this game's strengths, in some respects its also very much showing its age.

Danth

[Sabin76]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One part your missing though is the definition of rare. For example many mage spell components aren’t ultra rare but they are also not easy to get by any means. As the server progresses those components are also harder to find for sale from players as many people think most people who would need them have already leveled past the point where they would and most players also won’t spend the time creating and auctioning a lower level spell because the prices just progressively get cheaper and cheaper as more plat comes into the economy.

So you have a pretty decent lack of supply from player auctions while also having to find some pretty annoying components

I didn't define it on purpose, because it's something that I don't think you'd be able to get right the first time, and might need some tweaking as Kunark and Velious come out in whatever alternate reality exists where RogBog actually implement it.

I'll address your last point next, because I think it counters the rest to a degree. I don't see how things get cheaper when more plat enters the system... that's kind of the opposite of what it's supposed to do. So it comes back to another basic economic principle: how much is it worth to you? If people are willing to spend enough on components (or a completed spell), there will be people that will farm it. If no one is willing to spend it, then they better farm the mats themselves.

And that leads to my last point. Currently, it's not particularly "hard" to farm materials... all you need is the right level mobs. They literally drop anywhere in the world. Incidentally, I have a tunnel mule with a bunch on it, so if you need spell mats, give me a holler :P.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Sabin76 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't define it on purpose, because it's something that I don't think you'd be able to get right the first time, and might need some tweaking as Kunark and Velious come out in whatever alternate reality exists where RogBog actually implement it.

I'll address your last point next, because I think it counters the rest to a degree. I don't see how things get cheaper when more plat enters the system... that's kind of the opposite of what it's supposed to do. So it comes back to another basic economic principle: how much is it worth to you? If people are willing to spend enough on components (or a completed spell), there will be people that will farm it. If no one is willing to spend it, then they better farm the mats themselves.

And that leads to my last point. Currently, it's not particularly "hard" to farm materials... all you need is the right level mobs. They literally drop anywhere in the world. Incidentally, I have a tunnel mule with a bunch on it, so if you need spell mats, give me a holler :P.

Meant to say things get cheaper as more items enter the economy and that things get more expensive so selling things that are much cheaper like many types of lower level words or spells doesn’t really put a dent in what you need to buy a good item and therefore not worth the time to sell.

Certain types of components are still a hassle to get. You’d be surprised how annoying it can be to try and find some of the components that aren’t words

[NPC]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One part your missing though is the definition of rare. For example many mage spell components aren’t ultra rare but they are also not easy to get by any means. As the server progresses those components are also harder to find for sale from players as many people think most people who would need them have already leveled past the point where they would and most players also won’t spend the time creating and auctioning a lower level spell because the prices just progressively get cheaper and cheaper as more plat comes into the economy.

So you have a pretty decent lack of supply from player auctions while also having to find some pretty annoying components

Actually you would be amazed if you went around looking at NPC vendors, they usually have most of those rare spell components for sale because most players on P99 don't even realize and just sell everything to NPC vendors. I can find most components to just about any spell if I check enough vendors.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by NPC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually you would be amazed if you went around looking at NPC vendors, they usually have most of those rare spell components for sale because most players on P99 don't even realize and just sell everything to NPC vendors. I can find most components to just about any spell if I check enough vendors.

I mean sure, but to say that it's a guaranteed way to get your spell components is an exaggeration. I've never been able to guarantee that I can find research components that way on any of my casters (Blue & Green). Sure if you could port around everywhere then you could probably eventually find what you needed after checking a ton of vendors, but unless you have a porting alt or a friend willing to help you out, that's not really feasible.

Also, okay great you found the words on a vendor for a spell. You probably only found one pair of the words and you're possibly not trivial at the level you need to be yet. If you fail the combine, you're back where you started.