|
|
|
|
#1
09-14-2022, 09:24 AM
|
|||
|
It forced DSM to (once again) shift goalposts and arguments. He went from "Shamans do almost the same damage as mages" then realizing mages do way more cause of those logs and decided "More DPS is completely irrelevant unless you get an extra named/PH cycle from the DPS gain in a session of like 2 hours" which is obviously absurd and no realistic amount of DPS would achieve that. Takes like 20+ minutes for shit to respawn in this game and even with mediocre DPS you're killing it in like a minute. You could literally use his "DPS breakpoint" logic to justify a paladin being just as good as a rogue for a DPS slot in a group. It's insanely stupid. The things he comes up with are mind boggling.
__________________
1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member? | ||
|
Last edited by PlsNoBan; 09-14-2022 at 09:28 AM..
|
|
||
|
#2
09-14-2022, 09:37 AM
|
||||||
|
Quote:
DPS does increase kills per hour silly lol. It just stops doing so after you hit the optimal breakpoint. Going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS saves 40 seconds per kill on a mob with 8000 HP. If you are killing 20 mobs, that is saving 1600 seconds per hour. You are getting more spawn cycles with that much time saved. Quote:
No, you are not crazy Kitch867 about Warriors and Enchanters. PlsNoBan is just being a contrarian to try and prove me wrong. He has admitted to being a troll multiple times. I did talk about downtime, he just doesn't understand that Enchanters from 12-30 have a good chunk of downtime too. For some reason his argument is Enchanter's don't have downtime from 12-30, which is just nonsense. My Enchanter had plenty of downtime from 12-30. But of course, he will probably just say I am a bad player or something, because he has no evidence of downtime comparisons. He also forgot we are talking about grouping, not soloing, so the downtime would be different. He also just discards all data that disagrees with him lol. Quote:
__________________
| |||||
|
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-14-2022 at 10:02 AM..
|
|
|||||
|
#3
09-14-2022, 10:16 AM
|
||||
|
Quote:
You absolutely did and continue to shift goalposts and change your arguments when you're proven wrong. Enchanter downtime is MUCH less than warrior without regen item/buff. The warrior is also most likely fighting mobs much lower level than them to take as little damage as possible cause they aren't regenning for shit. Enchanters typically fight higher level mobs by comparison. The XP difference is fairly noticeable and should be taken into account. But this is probably the dumbest argument you've made. I'd personally steer clear of this one.
__________________
1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member? | |||
|
|
||||
|
#4
09-14-2022, 10:28 AM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
Enchanters 12-30 have plenty of downtime too due to lower meditation and mana regen buffs (less mana per tick), more fizzling (lower skills), more interrupts (lower channeling), more resists (lower level tash). I leveled an Enchanter from 12-30 recently, I know this very well. I was also leveling my Warrior. The only proof so far is that you have admitted to being a troll: Quote:
__________________
| ||||
|
|
|||||
|
#6
09-14-2022, 10:53 AM
|
|||||||||||
|
Quote:
What other classes were in this group, did it happen to have an Enchanter, and how long did it utilize this method/strategy of Shaman root rotting "adds"? For the sake of the - civil - discussion, it would be best to make these relevant factors clear. It's common for a Shaman and/or other classes to be rooting mobs as the groups primary CC if, for example, Root is the most dependable or only available form of CC the group has. At which point if heals are not needed, there isn't really much else for a Shaman to do against the primary DPS target - remember a Shaman won't be bothering to Malo or Slow mobs that die within 30s per DSM's posts in this thread, and Shaman will not get full value from their DoTs on targets that die too quickly - which will die in 30s anyway, so this hypothetical Shaman may as well DoT the "adds" because there is not much else it can (meaningfully) contribute. Let's be perfectly clear that in this specific scenario, you are pulling these mobs to the group and the Shaman is staying with the group, the Shaman has not ran off to fight "additional" mobs (over the 5 that you/the group have [intentionally] pulled) outside of the group (even though you are calling these mobs "adds" despite the fact that they were in your initial [presumably intentional] pull of 5 mobs at a time, which you have suggested is the meta, and not "additional mobs" to those 5). What DSM had earlier been claiming is that his Shaman could go fight / root/rot mobs independently from the group "if the group cares about DPS" hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Very different scenarios, objectively. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This also sounds familiar hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I seem to recall you had made the - unsubstantiated, false & laughable - claim that you were not moving goalposts simply because you and the OP both agree that his post "was general" (whatever that means) - AKA argumentum ad populum hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Quote:
Quote:
I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false. Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. Reposting the current state of the discussion: Quote:
Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. | ||||||||||
|
Last edited by cyxthryth; 09-14-2022 at 11:15 AM..
|
|
||||||||||
|
#7
09-14-2022, 12:07 PM
|
|||||
|
Quote:
All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner. The great dps “debate”: -We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic. -then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it … -We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion. -we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes. -we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group. -we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…) -WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math. Side tangents we saw: -a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant. -several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?) The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread. This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices. A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately. B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them) C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value. D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo. I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.
__________________
Quote:
 . | ||||
|
|
|||||
|
#8
09-14-2022, 12:11 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
What really happened is I provided solid evidence of DPS numbers based on the data you provided, and then you got really angry and proceeded to troll/insult/meme for 200 posts, like a child. Allishia's data is from an Epic Pet, while yours is not. And it still doesn't matter in the end due to how little time it saves per kill. You haven't shown why you think any of my data is invalid, or will change in a group. You have made the claim my data is invalid, so you have to prove it. You won't though, because you know the data won't change.
__________________
| |||
|
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-14-2022 at 12:15 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#9
09-14-2022, 12:20 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
I'd personally choose Cleric/Enchanter/Mage/Necro, which covers everything. It might not have the same amount of dps as multiple enc's, but I like that it gives you basically everything, while still being able to obliterate 99.9% of content. To me repeating classes is just boring. | |||
|
Last edited by Crede; 09-14-2022 at 12:22 PM..
|
|
|||
|
#10
09-14-2022, 12:21 PM
|
||||
|
Quote:
I still find it amusing that talking about basic facts of the game is considered muddying the waters, when OP didn't specify you couldn't have a pocket cleric.
__________________
| |||
|
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-14-2022 at 12:28 PM..
|
|
|||
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
