Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[fortior]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They are the second best solo class. I don't think anyone said they were the best, other than random strawman arguments.

Nah, they’re behind druids, necros, enchanters, and bards.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, they’re behind druids, necros, enchanters, and bards.

Not at all.

Necros and Druids are limited by the type of mob they can charm. There are less zones they can operate efficiently in because of this. Bards are great for clearing trash, not so much named mobs.

Enchanters are the best solo class because they can do more content in more zones than any other class. Shamans are second best in that regard. They can do a lot of content in a lot of zones solo, without a specific restriction other than slow immunity. Luckily this is fairly rare in soloable mobs.

If you are referring to solo speed while leveling, I agree Shamans aren't as fast as Druids, Necros, or Bards. However, leveling speed doesn't really matter if you don't plan on reaching 60. If you are the type of player who levels to 50 and stops, I am not sure what you are rushing for. If you are planning on reaching 60, it is more important to understand what your character is going to do at 60.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not at all.

Necros and Druids are limited by the type of mob they can charm. There are less zones they can operate efficiently in because of this. Bards are great for clearing trash, not so much named mobs.

Enchanters are the best solo class because they can do more content in more zones than any other class. Shamans are second best in that regard. They can do a lot of content in a lot of zones solo, without a specific restriction other than slow immunity. Luckily this is fairly rare in soloable mobs.

If you are referring to solo speed while leveling, I agree Shamans aren't as fast as Druids, Necros, or Bards. However, leveling speed doesn't really matter if you don't plan on reaching 60. If you are the type of player who levels to 50 and stops, I am not sure what you are rushing for. If you are planning on reaching 60, it is more important to understand what your character is going to do at 60.

I'm not sure why you think that the solo ranking of a class translates into a 4 man group situation. The only reason you have an overlap in enchanters is because of charmed pet dps. If this wasn't the case, you would not want 2 enchanters in a group. Group dynamics change as the amount of group members change, with the exception of enc/cleric as this translates into all levels of play as these are pretty much the 2 most powerful classes in group content.

Also, Necros are not necessarily dependent on the type of mob they can charm for solo. If you watch some of UnchainedFury's solo videos, they get to a point where they can just face tank stuff spamming lifetap as needed. OP has not specified the level of gear associated with each class, so we have nothing to go on there. They can also fear kite when appropriate as well, and as been revealed in other threads, it's not difficult to throw fear down in dungeons in certain situations. In this composition I'd actually choose them over shaman as they are capable of outputting more dps with their superior dots, pet, and potential charm pet as well, in addition to bringing FD and Harmshield, not to mention emergency rez if needed. Their patch heal is likely sufficient enough to fill in if the cleric is busy as well. And with 2 enchanters, you could easily have 1 or even both of them on slow duty, since maintaining a charmed pet does not cost a lot of mana. A shaman would bring malo, but not having it isn't necessarily the end of the world, as pet kits can offset there and I doubt there's a mob out there that this potential 4 man group would need malo to land a slow on to win. And since you introduced pocket chars, you could easily have a pocket coth mage to drop a malo in if needed, as this class would be extremely easy to PL with enchanter aoe stun if you wanted to level one up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why you think that the solo ranking of a class translates into a 4 man group situation. The only reason you have an overlap in enchanters is because of charmed pet dps. If this wasn't the case, you would not want 2 enchanters in a group. Group dynamics change as the amount of group members change, with the exception of enc/cleric as this translates into all levels of play as these are pretty much the 2 most powerful classes in group content.

Also, Necros are not necessarily dependent on the type of mob they can charm for solo. If you watch some of UnchainedFury's solo videos, they get to a point where they can just face tank stuff spamming lifetap as needed. OP has not specified the level of gear associated with each class, so we have nothing to go on there. They can also fear kite when appropriate as well, and as been revealed in other threads, it's not difficult to throw fear down in dungeons in certain situations. In this composition I'd actually choose them over shaman as they are capable of outputting more dps with their superior dots, pet, and potential charm pet as well, in addition to bringing FD and Harmshield, not to mention emergency rez if needed. Their patch heal is likely sufficient enough to fill in if the cleric is busy as well. And with 2 enchanters, you could easily have 1 or even both of them on slow duty, since maintaining a charmed pet does not cost a lot of mana. A shaman would bring malo, but not having it isn't necessarily the end of the world, as pet kits can offset there and I doubt there's a mob out there that this potential 4 man group would need malo to land a slow on to win. And since you introduced pocket chars, you could easily have a pocket coth mage to drop a malo in if needed, as this class would be extremely easy to PL with enchanter aoe stun if you wanted to level one up.

It is not a coincidence that Enchanters are the best solo class, and also happen to be the number one pick for any thread on this kind of topic. If you look at how an Enchanter plays in a group, a group with 2 Enchanters is basically 2 Enchanters soloing together with support classes allowing them to play longer before a med break. An Enchanter really isn't playing differently in a group from how they would solo if they are Charming pets.

Most content 3-4 players can do is still basically content that is soloable by an Enchanter or Shaman. Grouping just allows you to do the harder solo content without using expensive clickies. Unfortunately the next level of content usually needs a full group to do it consistently, with a Warrior for discing. I honestly can't think of a lot of content that specifically needs 3-4 players, and couldn't be done with a duo, or a solo player with all the expensive clickies.

As for a Necromancer, I am not trying to downplay them at all. They are a fantastic class. The main issue they suffer from is their strongest abilities (charm and fear) are limited by mob level (fear) and location (charm). That is why they can't really solo the harder content that a Shaman or Enchanter can do. If there was a Howling Stones equivalent in Velious that dropped really nice items, then that may have been a different story.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is not a coincidence that Enchanters are the best solo class, and also happen to be the number one pick for any thread on this kind of topic. If you look at how an Enchanter plays in a group, a group with 2 Enchanters is basically 2 Enchanters soloing together with support classes allowing them to play longer before a med break.

Most content 3-4 players can do is still basically content that is soloable by an Enchanter or Shaman. Grouping just allows you to do the harder solo content without using expensive clickies. Unfortunately the next level of content usually needs a full group to do it consistently. I honestly can't think of a lot of content that specifically needs 3-4 players, and couldn't be done with a duo, or a solo player with all the expensive clickies.

As for a Necromancer, I am not trying to downplay them at all. They are a fantastic class. The main issue they suffer from is their strongest abilities (charm and fear) are limited by mob level (fear) and location (charm). That is why they can't really solo the harder content that a Shaman or Enchanter can do. If there was a Howling Stones equivalent in Velious that dropped really nice items, then that may have been a different story.

Actually, I think it is a coincidence. Because Enchanter charmed pet is such high dps, that they can fill the dps role quite well.

Any other decent solo class you would likely not want to double on. Shamans specifically, you will basically never have 2 in a group. Because the utility gain wouldn't be worth the dps loss. You only need so many slows, heals, roots, etc. It diminishes a lot faster than massive DPS by an enchanter pet.

I would agree though, that OP's question is so hypothetical that it never happens. I don't think I've ever seen 4 casters plowing through content, as enc/cleric can basically kill mostly anything groupable until you need to start bringing in a bigger group with a war or other classes to open up the next tier as you indicated.

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, I think it is a coincidence. Because Enchanter charmed pet is such high dps, that they can fill the dps role quite well.

Any other decent solo class you would likely not want to double on. Shamans specifically, you will basically never have 2 in a group. Because the utility gain wouldn't be worth the dps loss. You only need so many slows, heals, roots, etc. It diminishes a lot faster than massive DPS by an enchanter pet.

I would agree though, that OP's question is so hypothetical that it never happens. I don't think I've ever seen 4 casters plowing through content, as enc/cleric can basically kill mostly anything groupable until you need to start bringing in a bigger group with a war or other classes to open up the next tier as you indicated.

I think he knows this.

But he's been arguing, yet again, that shamans will root rot in this hypothetical 2 charm group. Why would they do that? To merely prove a point that shamans are better than mages at DPS.

Yes. He really is that childish.

DSM really doesn't deserve a civil discussion at this point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, I think it is a coincidence. Because Enchanter charmed pet is such high dps, that they can fill the dps role quite well.

Any other decent solo class you would likely not want to double on. Shamans specifically, you will basically never have 2 in a group. Because the utility gain wouldn't be worth the dps loss. You only need so many slows, heals, roots, etc. It diminishes a lot faster than massive DPS by an enchanter pet.

I would agree though, that OP's question is so hypothetical that it never happens. I don't think I've ever seen 4 casters plowing through content, as enc/cleric can basically kill mostly anything groupable until you need to start bringing in a bigger group with a war or other classes to open up the next tier as you indicated.

I agree you would never bring two Shamans, and that the DPS is the reason to bring two Enchanters.

But I disagree about the coincidence part. Enchanters are certainly the best solo and single group class for the same reason. They have unparalleled CC in addition to good DPS. They don't really play different solo vs. single group either. They are still Charming and CCing. They can just be a bit more ballsy since they have backup.

Most group content that 3-4 players can do is already soloable by Enchanters or Shamans. Having one of each in your group means you can basically have a single player solo a bad situation if multiple problems are occurring simultaneously. A Cleric is less able to handle an unstunnable mob beating them in the face, for example.

DPS also has diminishing returns, which I have mentioned before. At 200 DPS you are killing Fungi King in 90 seconds. At 250 DPS you are killing Fungi King in 72 seconds. The biggest issue with Everquest is 30 minute spawn timers cause DPS to fall off considerably after a certain point. 250 DPS is only saving you 18 seconds in a 30 minute wait time. Obviously raids are different, but we are discussing single group content.

A 3-4 player group is not really killing anything with more than 25000 HP, and 2 Enchanters are already hitting 200 DPS. Generally speaking even when you are churning through mobs, a bit of extra DPS needs many consecutive play hours to translate over to an additional spawn. If you take a break in between, you lose all that progress.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The biggest issue with Everquest is 30 minute spawn timers cause DPS to fall off considerably after a certain point.

I'll also complain here about the placeholder-spawn mechanic. If you had to clear a whole area to get a good chance at a named spawn I think farming would be more social.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most group content that 3-4 players can do is already soloable by Enchanters or Shamans. Having one of each in your group means you can basically have a single player solo a bad situation if multiple problems are occurring simultaneously. A Cleric is less able to handle an unstunnable mob beating them in the face, for example.

A shaman can't help in a bad situation if they're several floors away root rotting 4-6 mobs.

I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that enc/enc/clr/druid is the way to go. Shaman haste/slow is fully covered by two enchanters and dots don't help when engaging group content that dies quickly. I'm glad DSM can find groups that let him go off on his own and root rot stuff, but I find the whole concept pretty repulsive. Druid adds snares, ports, roots, the Skin Like line, group regen, potg at 60, and outdoors shenanigans. But really, I think if you start with a pair of enchanters, adding any combination of druid/necro/cleric will lead to a great group.

My highest level character is 45, though, so my perspective is from a leveling/adventuring group, not from someone who's spent a decade at level 60 with raid gear.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A Necro/Shaman combo is twitching more mana to your Enchanters than PoTG. PoTG isn't a necessary buff, it's a nice to have. Torpor + Regen + Twitch is a great combo.

I got to group with a necro on my shaman for the first time yesterday, and Regen + Twitch combined with canni + Pact of Shadow really is amazing.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I honestly can't think of a lot of content that specifically needs 3-4 players, and couldn't be done with a duo, or a solo player with all the expensive clickies.

That's an interesting question itself. Maybe Sleepers Tomb trash* clear, Chardok Royals / Cleric Epic (I'm not really sure on minimum for Chardok King, Ixiblat, and Ragefire), maybe some of the non Ayilish 6 necks (but why?).

As you've suggested before, for stuff that really requires more than 2 it is often nicer to just bring everyone than to try to do it with a minimal force. But it's still interesting to try to list. I don't mind 3-4 at some duoable camps though, can make it more stable.

* I managed to duo one of these but my method wouldn't have been good enough for a clear.