Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh this one is easy.

Complete heal is superior to torpor. It can’t be dispelled, and heals for much more And scales better with velious gear and charmed mob health. Also depending on server ticks it might actually land before torpor does.

Clerics also have stun command. Arguably the best tool for a charm break. Shamans can’t really do much there, especially with disease aggro nerfed. Much safer to stun and recharm then try to out torpor a quadding fully hasted pet. And they can give the enchanter a much bigger hp pool as well for extra safety.

Clerics simply have more utility at their disposal than a shaman. Shamans biggest thing is
Slow. But this is largely irrelevant with an enchanter. And If you really need malo, just
Invite a mage for mala and superior dps.

It’s really that simple. There’s simply no need for a shaman in this group comp. This is why you see the majority of shamans soloing in the end game.

Complete Heal is better in certain scenarios. Torpor + Slow will work just fine for the vast majority of content this group will be doing. You aren't healing a discing Warrior. It's mostly used to keep the same pet, which can be accomplished by a Shaman tanking. You need to give specific examples of a camp that is unslowable and need a Cleric to CH the pet for survivability purposes.

Stun Command is a great spell, but it has a 30 second cooldown. Shamans can slow the charm break if it's bad, root, or heal. Stuns also don't work on mobs level 55+, so it isn't like you can use it in every scenario.

Slow is not irrelevant when you can slow instead of the Enchanter. It saves them mana, and allows them to cast other spells while you are slowing. More Enchanter mana means the Enchanter can cast more spells in an emergency. Shamans also have a better slow than Enchanters. Same with Malo, Shaman Malo is better than Mage Mala.

Enchanters also do a lot of soloing at 60, that doesn't mean they are bad in groups.

I am still waiting on evidence for these kinds of claims. Again, I am not saying Clerics are bad. They are a great option. You are the one making the claim that Clerics will be far superior, and Shamans can't compete.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...78&postcount=6

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Level a cleric and have people log it in as needed. I have an epic cleric that’s been 54 since 2014 and he has done countless rezzes. Just a phenomenal class that everyone should have at least one of.

Thanks for agreeing with me about pocket Clerics by the way.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still waiting on evidence for these kinds of claims.

I am still waiting on evidence of your Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to your group - and have been waiting on that evidence for nearly a year now.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

# of posts about Shamans improving the DPS of their group via Root-Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group: tens? hundreds?

# of posts including evidence of such: 0

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The evidence which proves you have made tens? hundreds? of posts claiming that Shamans can improve group DPS by Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group - while providing exactly zero evidence that your Shaman has ever done such a thing, much less that it is a common/frequent occurrence - is this entire thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am still waiting on evidence of your Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to your group - and have been waiting on that evidence for nearly a year now.

I didn't record any of those sessions, so it is up to you whether you believe me or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY - This is what it looks like for a Shaman to root rot in Velks. You can see it is safe, and wouldn't affect a nearby group. You don't see any evidence of bad pathing, heavy resists, trains, etc.

There would be no difference between this video and a video of me grouping. The group would simply be in a nearby part of the zone.

You are going to claim my evidence isn't valid, but I do have evidence. Unfortunately you cannot claim every piece of evidence someone provides is invalid. That isn't an argument.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't record any of those sessions, so it is up to you whether you believe me or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY - This is what it looks like for a Shaman to root rot in Velks. You can see it is safe, and wouldn't affect a nearby group. You don't see any evidence of bad pathing, heavy resists, trains, etc.

There would be no difference between this video solo and grouped, the group would simply be in a nearby part of the zone.

You are going to claim my evidence isn't valid, but I do have evidence. Unfortunately you cannot just simply claim every piece of evidence someone provides is invalid. That isn't an argument.

I am not particularly interested in beliefs and you have already shared your beliefs many times in your 1,300+ posts in this thread.

That video you linked is definitely 100% valid evidence of SOLO Root Rotting and naturally Shaman can Root Rot mobs easily (esp. ones that don't summon). It's the doing that while being part of a 4 person priest/caster group containing 2 Encs using Charmed pets & being beneficial / more beneficial than a Mage w/non-Epic pet that I have hard time accepting. You would need to have access to the additional mobs/such mobs have to exist, you'd have to kill the additional mobs while within range of your groupmates in order for them to get experience. This doesn't even mention that MORE mobs have to be available for you to continue to pull 3-6 more of them, and where are those mobs coming from? Is the group pulling/crawling in a direction that ALLOWS you to continue to pull additional mobs and stay in range? This, additionally, is all assuming you are able to handle the mobs without any devastating root breaks, summons, etc. A simple video - provided by you - actually doing this in the relevant environment could settle/answer all of these questions & help lay the issue to rest.

Since your gameplay in that video was SOLO & specifically not in a group in the specific scenario where your Root Rotting is benefitting said group because your Root Rotting is achieving additional kills / experience for the group like you claimed it would/could/does, it is objectively IRRELEVANT evidence, which WOULD/COULD be relevant, if you were simply in a group & improving their DPS via your Root Rotting like your tens? hundreds? of posts fervently claimed it did/does/would/could.

It really wouldn't be hard to prove your group is getting experience from your Root Rotting kills in such a group, as you should in turn be receiving experience from their 2 Enc Pet blender. I don't see the point in your reluctance to comply honestly. If you truly do this Root Rotting method/tactic parallel to the group and - as is obvious - you enjoy recording your gameplay & sharing videos, it seems like you would just simply provide the evidence even if it were just to shut your opposition up lol.

Also, if you DON'T actually do this in groups & were just saying that Shaman the CLASS is theoretically CAPABLE of doing that, where a Mage is not, it would also be fine to just clarify that & I doubt anybody is going to think less of you for it. (I wouldn't.)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't see the point in your reluctance to comply honestly. If you truly do this Root Rotting method/tactic parallel to the group and - as is obvious - you enjoy recording your gameplay & sharing videos, it seems like you would just simply provide the evidence even if it were just to shut your opposition up lol.

You have made it clear you will not accept any evidence I have provided or will provide. It's far too late to try and deny it or cover it. You are just going to make an excuse for why my video doesn't work, and make me record another video. This is an "appeal to ignorance". You will not admit you are wrong or provide counter evidence, you will simply keep asking me to prove my evidence is valid. You are always shifting the burden of proof away from yourself.

That is not fair to me, as it does take time and energy to make these videos.

If you feel my evidence is invalid, you need to provide counter evidence. For example, show a video of root rotting going wrong and wiping a group. Then we can analyze it and see if the issue is due to root rotting, skill, high mob resists, etc.

If I am so obviously wrong, it should be equally trivial for any of my detractors to provide counter evidence. So far not one video showing I am wrong has been posted in 436 pages.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have made it clear you will not accept any evidence provided.

How can you make such a statement in good conscience/faith when the only evidence you have provided thus far has been objectively irrelevant?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's far too late to try and deny it or cover it.

How so? Cover for what?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are just going to make an excuse for why my video doesn't work, and make me record another video.

You have no example of my reaction to RELEVANT evidence provided by yourself because you haven't ever provided it to begin with - so your above Quoted assumption is baseless (and also incorrect).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an "argument from ignorance". You will not admit you are wrong or provide counter evidence, you will simply keep asking me to prove my evidence is valid. You are always shifting the burden of proof away from yourself.

I told you - the evidence you provided most recently was VALID, just not relevant. It is up to you to provide relevant evidence to support your claims. The specific burden of proof to prove your claim that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage) has been solely yours for almost a year.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is not fair to me, as it does take time and energy to make these videos.

Sorry, life is not fair. It also takes others' time to review the evidence you've provided & confirm that it is not relevant/does not prove/validate/justify your previous claim made over tens? hundreds? of posts claiming that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you feel my evidence is invalid, you need to provide counter evidence. For example, show a video of root rotting going wrong and wiping a group. Then we can analyze it and see if the issue is due to root rotting, skill, high mob resists, etc.

I need only point out the irrefutable fact that the evidence you have provided contains zero evidence of your Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group and thereby providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage.

Again, to be clear: the specific burden of proof to prove your claim that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage) has been solely yours for almost a year.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How can you make such a statement in good conscience/faith when the only evidence you have provided thus far has been objectively irrelevant?



How so? Cover for what?



You have no example of my reaction to relevant evidence provided by yourself because you haven't ever provided it to begin with - so your above Quoted assumption is baseless (and also incorrect).



I told you - the evidence you provided most recently was VALID, just not relevant. It is up to you to provide relevant evidence to support your claims. The specific burden of proof to prove your claim that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage) has been solely yours for almost a year.



Sorry, life is not fair. It also takes others' time to review the evidence you've provided & confirm that it is not relevant/does not prove/validate/justify your previous claim made over tens? hundreds? of posts claiming that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage).



I need only point out the irrefutable fact that the evidence you have provided contains zero evidence of your Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group and thereby providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage.

Again, to be clear: the specific burden of proof to prove your claim that Shaman can Root Rot multiple mobs parallel to the group (providing a benefit to the group, and/or more of a benefit than a non-Epic pet Mage) has been solely yours for almost a year.

Thank you for proving my point. Let me know when you want to provide some counter evidence. Simply claiming another person's evidence is not relevant is... not relevant[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I'll talk to you again when you have provided some counter evidence.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Complete Heal is better in certain scenarios. Torpor + Slow will work just fine for the vast majority of content this group will be doing. You aren't healing a discing Warrior. It's mostly used to keep the same pet, which can be accomplished by a Shaman tanking. You need to give specific examples of a camp that is unslowable and need a Cleric to CH the pet for survivability purposes.

Stun Command is a great spell, but it has a 30 second cooldown. Shamans can slow the charm break if it's bad, root, or heal. Stuns also don't work on mobs level 55+, so it isn't like you can use it in every scenario.

Slow is not irrelevant when you can slow instead of the Enchanter. It saves them mana, and allows them to cast other spells while you are slowing. More Enchanter mana means the Enchanter can cast more spells in an emergency. Shamans also have a better slow than Enchanters. Same with Malo, Shaman Malo is better than Mage Mala.
Enchanters also do a lot of soloing at 60, that doesn't mean they are bad in groups.

I am still waiting on evidence for these kinds of claims. Again, I am not saying Clerics are bad. They are a great option. You are the one making the claim that Clerics will be far superior, and Shamans can't compete.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...78&postcount=6



Thanks for agreeing with me about pocket Clerics by the way.

It’s cute that you are searching other non related threads to try and gain some ground in this on me. It shows me how pathetically desperate you are, while still failing to provide any relevant data, despite going completely out of your way. I won’t even grace you with a rebuttal to that, I’ll let others discover the truth if they so choose.

Nice try failing to downplay clerics. Stun command lasts 9 seconds, so you’d have to get another break in 21 seconds for it to not work again, but even then they have multiple other stuns they can use for backup. It is objectively true that stun is the best defense against charm breaks compared to anything the shaman offers. And in the event that the mob is stun immune, the cleric can both rip/heal better than the shaman if needed, and root as well.

The fact that you think the shaman is saving the mana of an enchanter by slowing tells me You know nothing about enchanter play. If an enchanter is allowed to keep a pet, they have no mana issues. Between c2, tot, wandering mind, etc they are more than fine. They can also use lower level slows, like tepid, or give their pet a swarm caller if they need to save some mana for some rare reason. In fact I used tepid for majority of content as 70+% slow is usually overkill.

Enchanters translate into all group compositions because of their charm dps. I’m not sure why you keep failing to realize this, or just purposely neglect it which you’re likely doing. So yes, you can scale them indefinitely from solo to group play. 6 enchanters in a group is perfectly fine. 6 shamans would just be all clicking their jbb in desperation.

Again, shamans are an acceptable class. If you want to roll with one, that’s fine. It’s just that clerics are objectively better in this group comp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s cute that you are searching other non related threads to try and gain some ground in this on me. It shows me how pathetically desperate you are, while still failing to provide any relevant data, despite going completely out of your way. I won’t even grace you with a rebuttal to that, I’ll let others discover the truth if they so choose.

I am not sure why you need to act so hostile. I agree with what you said about pocket clerics. They are great for resing when you don't have a Cleric in the group.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice try failing to downplay clerics. Stun command lasts 9 seconds, so you’d have to get another break in 21 seconds for it to not work again, but even then they have multiple other stuns they can use for backup. It is objectively true that stun is the best defense against charm breaks compared to anything the shaman offers. And in the event that the mob is stun immune, the cleric can both rip/heal better than the shaman if needed, and root as well.

I am not attempting to downplay Clerics. I am saying there are weaknesses to Stun Command, and that is true. You are also gaining things from a Shaman's utility, so it isn't a straight loss. You already have 2 overlapping stuns for a charm break with the Enchanters. Malosini reduces the changes of a Charm Break, which factors into the equation. Shamans are also a lot tankier than a Cleric. If the Cleric is getting beaten on while the Enchanters also have a Charm Break, your group could be in trouble. A Shaman can generally power through those situations while helping out the other team members at the same time.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that you think the shaman is saving the mana of an enchanter by slowing tells me You know nothing about enchanter play. If an enchanter is allowed to keep a pet, they have no mana issues. Between c2, tot, wandering mind, etc they are more than fine. They can also use lower level slows, like tepid, or give their pet a swarm caller if they need to save some mana for some rare reason. In fact I used tepid for majority of content as 70+% slow is usually overkill.

I understand Enchanter play just fine. Enchanters can spend a lot of mana on occasion, and it's better for them to have more mana when that occurs. It increases survivability, and reduces med breaks.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters translate into all group compositions because of their charm dps. I’m not sure why you keep failing to realize this, or just purposely neglect it which you’re likely doing.

Enchanters are the best because of their unrestricted Charming + unbeatable CC. They have two things that no other class has, and they combine well together. An Enchanter uses both of these things in solo situations, and the same solo strategies translate into a group. This is why it isn't a coincidence that they are an amazing solo class + an amazing group class.

The same logic applies with Shamans. They get unparalleled mana regeneration and are great at tanking. They allow your group to play longer without med breaks because they don't need med breaks, and can share some of the duties of an Enchanter.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So yes, you can scale them indefinitely from solo to group play. 6 enchanters in a group is perfectly fine. 6 shamans would just be all clicking their jbb in desperation.

A group of 6 Enchanters would be getting bad experience, and wouldn't be getting more named mob kills per hour. It is why you don't see groups of 6 people XPing, or groups of 6 Enchanters killing named mobs. If you have played on this server for a length of time, you would notice this trend. People know about the DPS limitations intuitively, even if they don't know how to describe it.

I understand why it is easy to fall into this trap. DPS scales linearly. If you can kill a mob every 40 seconds without pause for an hour, you get 90 kills per hour. If you can kill a mob every 20 seconds without pause for an hour, you get 180 kills per hour. On paper that sounds like more DPS = more kills. Unfortunately, there are no areas in the game where you could pull 180 mobs in an hour. Respawn times cause DPS to fall off after a certain point, depending on the camp. As a quick example, lets say you are camping a mob on a 5 minute timer, and you take a full minute to kill it. That means you are getting 10 kills per hour. If you double your DPS and kill the mob in 30 seconds, you are only getting 11 kills an hour. You are doubling your DPS, but only getting a 10% boost in experience. Everquest 1 is simply not built to handle groups killing 180 mobs per hour.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, shamans are an acceptable class. If you want to roll with one, that’s fine. It’s just that clerics are objectively better in this group comp.

You still haven't provided any evidence to back this claim up.

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody is doing hate minis without a rez at their beck and call, everyone knows this except for the loser who leveled one class to 60 and now has to keep arguing that it’s the bestest, most special one. You’re all arguing with a dude who has 1 lv60 with mediocre raid gear on a 13 year old eq1 server. The most elite camps he can think of are fungi king and PoM static rooms. It’s extremely funny when he gets wound up and tries to be witty but please don’t take him seriously.

When you can't win with facts and logic, you resort to straw men. You would know that it is easy to get a Cleric for a res, even in Hate. If you can get into hate, you have a porter. As you said earlier, this game is easy. You don't need a dedicated Cleric just for that. It is the same reason you aren't suggesting a dedicated Necromancer for corpse summons.

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unfortunately, there are no areas in the game where you could pull 180 mobs in an hour.

While there are few, there are multiple camps where you can pull 180 mobs an hour if you can kill them.

Blam Stick camp, Plate House, Siren's Grotto can all do 180 mobs an hour most of the time since the first two have unlimited spawns and SG just has enough untouched stuff in it most of the time that you can do 180 mobs an hour. The hole can also support 180 mobs/hour while crawling depending on how many other people are XPing in the zone. I suspect you can also do a skyshrine crawl with that much DPS and be able to continue to find things to kill, but I'm less certain there.

Also, 55+ stun immunity isn't really very often relevant for charm breaks, as you need to be using dictate on anything 54+. And while dictate is awesome and lets you do some super cool stuff, it tends to be more special case and highly structured in how you use it.