sk starting points

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no conflation going on. I already provided the average DPS including the mitigation and hit chances here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=513. This is assuming you are fighting a mob roughly equal to yourself.

You quoted a post from 2011, which doesn't mean anything anymore to be honest. 12 years of code changes have been made since then.

What you do not understand is P99 is based on the EQEMU code. The P99 codebase is not a completely different codebase that has no relation to EQEMU. P99 can take updates from the EQEMU repository, and also update the EQEMU repository with P99 code. The P99 devs ALSO work on EQEMU. These are not two separate projects.

If you understand how managing codebases work, you would know that occam's razor suggests the EQEMU source code is similar to P99's. The larger the difference in the two codebases, the more work it takes to fix a bug that affects both codebases. As far as I know, the biggest difference between P99 and EQEMU is the code that switches between patches, to emulate the progression from classic all the way to Velious. You can still use the same calculations a EQEMU, and simply branch the alternatives during a specific patch.

You need to understand the the source code on GitHub is not the thing that makes P99 special. It is the database and scripts that have the "classic" data in them that make the game feel like it is classic.

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You are making the argument that something is 'likely'; I disagree, but even if it were 'likely', that is not a sufficient standard of evidence to make the assumption that the EQEMU damage calculations are correct for P99. Think about the absurdity of that. Why are resistances so different on P99 vs other emus? Channeling? It's all fucking different.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4-5% of a DPS increase is really not a large boost for most players during the leveling process.

In a game of inches like p99 a 4-5% dps increase from something as simple as a measly 20 str is a whopper of a difference. Its more than the difference you’d see upgrading from a 34% haste belt to a 41% raid item. It’s about the same difference you’d expect upgrading FBSS (21%) to RBB (31%). If 100% haste doubles your damage output, it would take 8-10% difference in haste to result in a 4-5% dps output boost.

There are only 4 things a person can do to directly influence their melee dps without buffs:
-better weapon setup (ratio etc)
-more worn haste
-more strength (up to the cap)
-worn attack items

There is a reason every melee strives to have as much str as you can - all the way up to the 255 cap. All things considered equal, the player with more strength will put out more than the player with less.

An Iksar sk is not going to be getting to 255 str without maniacal str AND focus stack until you start thinking moderate to high level raid gear. This is well beyond an iksar SK alt to mess around with greenmist. Sure with avatar, but for that they are either a high end raider with BiS potential and their own proc or a level 60 shaman following them around.

Let’s use my warrior as an example. Starting strength of 100. I dumped most or all of my starting stats into dexterity because procs are the lifeblood of warrior threat. I don’t know if I put 5 points into stamina or not. I honestly don’t remember.

Here’s my warrior with 100 naked str:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Bedavir

My gear what you’ll expect as a very well geared casual raider. Nothing overly flashy but solid enough and beyond the level the OP is probably going to take their SK. Meaningful upgrades from here are going to be mostly limited NToV, kings, AoW/Statue, Tunare and sleepers.

I’m sitting at 186 strength. If the iksar sk put all 20 stats into str and had comparable gear … it would be pretty similar. Focus gets me to 253 str. Less if I have to put in some resist gear for whatever reason.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Incorrect. You simply do not have a good grasp on how code repositories work, and you do not seem to understand that P99 is based on EQEMU code, which is also being worked on by P99 devs.

The database is where P99's magic comes from, not simple code calculating things like max damage or mitigation.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incorrect. You simply do not have a good grasp on how code repositories work, and you do not seem to understand that P99 is based on EQEMU code, which is also being worked on by P99 devs.

The database is where P99's magic comes from, not simple code calculating things like max damage or mitigation.

Prove it. I've showed where P99 devs specifically made changes to the backend damage calculation. You claim I don't understand codebase but you deny that P99 is a branch of original EQEMU that has been growing, not open source, for 15 years. Now show where those changes have been applied to EQEMU. Simply stating "They had to have moved it over!" is not sufficient. You haven't provided shit but an assumption.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In a game of inches like p99 a 4-5% dps increase from something as simple as a measly 20 str is a whopper of a difference. Its more than the difference you’d see upgrading from a 34% haste belt to a 41% raid item. It’s about the same difference you’d expect upgrading FBSS (21%) to RBB (31%). If 100% haste doubles your damage output, it would take 8-10% difference in haste to result in a 4-5% dps output boost.

When it comes to haste, the reason why going from 34%-41% haste is a small difference is because half of the possible delay reduction occurs in the first 34% haste. For example, at 34% haste a weapon with 40 delay is reduced to 30 delay. 20 delay is the lowest value you can get from haste on a 40 delay weapon. This means you need 64% haste to get the same gains you got with the first 34% haste.

That is why any worn haste item is giving you such a large boost to DPS over STR.

I have shown that there are going to be a lot of scenarios in which a 4-5% DPS boost is not going to give you any more kills per hour. Like INT, you will sometimes get the benefit, and sometimes not.

Factoring in how easy it is to get STR https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300 , there is less reason to worry about STR as a whole, especially on melee classes.

That is why INT is generally the better starting stat objectively speaking.

I am not trying to say that STR is bad, or people who put their starting stats into STR made a mistake.

I simply want to let people know what the objective answer is, so they can decide if the shorter term gains from STR make more sense.

I think this is a fair answer to OP's question, which is what I have been saying the whole time:

1. INT is the best starting stat for SK's.
2. Starting stats do not affect your character enough to worry about them. You can put all your starting stats into WIS and it wouldn't matter.
3. STR is a good choice for your first character on a server, or a self found character. Twinked characters will probably have enough STR and WR bags already.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Prove it. I've showed where P99 devs specifically made changes to the backend damage calculation. You claim I don't understand codebase but you deny that P99 is a branch of original EQEMU that has been growing, not open source, for 15 years. Now show where those changes have been applied to EQEMU. Simply stating "They had to have moved it over!" is not sufficient. You haven't provided shit but an assumption.

I already showed you an example of where the max damage formula in P99 lines up with the EQEMU source code https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=446. That is more evidence than your 12 year old post. The only thing that matters is what the code looks like today, in 2023, not what the code looked like in 2011. We are not in 2011 anymore.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No matter how small the DPS increase is, its still better than INT.

Add in the extra weight carry and its a no brainer.

It’s not just about your dps increasing kills/hour. As has been shown some camps the biggest limit is the respawn timer.

What I’ve perceived dps useful for is making each individual fight a little shorter and safer. The longer a fight goes on the more chances the opponent has to spike, getting you low health and forcing you to do an extra tap, spend quaff a pot or whatever.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When it comes to haste, the reason why going from 34%-41% haste is a small difference is because half of the possible delay reduction occurs in the first 34% haste. For example, at 34% haste a weapon with 40 delay is reduced to 30 delay. 20 delay is the lowest value you can get from haste on a 40 delay weapon. This means you need 64% haste to get the same gains you got with the first 34% haste.

What? Lol no. Wtf lol no. That is now how math and percentages work.

I feel like I’m arguing with an imbecile here!

No haste: 40 = 40 = 4 seconds between melee rounds
34% haste: 40/1.34 = 29.8507 delay = 2.985 seconds between rounds
68% haste: 40/1.68 = 23.8095 delay = 2.38 seconds between rounds
100% haste: 40/2 = 20 delay = 2 seconds between rounds

A better way to think about it?

Swings rounds per 10 minutes:
No haste = 150
34% haste = 201
68% haste = 252
100% haste = 300

600 seconds divided by time between swings.

You don’t get “more value from the first 34% haste”. You get linear returns on haste up to the haste cap.

What. The. Literal. Fuck?

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have shown that there are going to be a lot of scenarios in which a 4-5% DPS boost is not going to give you any more kills per hour. Like INT, you will sometimes get the benefit, and sometimes not.

Any % of DPS boost is always going to give you more kills per hour, unless you are artificially limiting your kills per hour by camping a single spawn, which is a hilariously braindead scenario on which to base the utility of STR-- especially, for your point, because INT is 100% useless in that scenario.

"Hey guys, killing this bard that only spawns every 6 minutes faster, only saves you a a little time every hour!"... meanwhile every single knight who is grouping or actively and consistently playing their character is seeing the full bonus and doing 5-10% more damage which, as both I and troxx have said, is whopping.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s not just about your dps increasing kills/hour. As has been shown some camps the biggest limit is the respawn timer.

What I’ve perceived dps useful for is making each individual fight a little shorter and safer. The longer a fight goes on the more chances the opponent has to spike, getting you low health and forcing you to do an extra tap, spend quaff a pot or whatever.

In a scenario where killing is limited by a spawn timer, the combat is trivial for what you bring, and killing speed is therefore the only relevant figure.

It all boils down to sustain vs. max. DPS is a variant of sustain; killing something faster scales multiplicatively with all the numbers of combat, dips into many different buckets, and ultimately saves you resources (mobs do less damage to you, you potentially get to spend more time medding, etc). It improves the efficiency of your character. Sustain is far more valuable in EQ. Max mana only has one-dimensional utility, other than a few, extremely rare scenarios such as surviving a fight specifically because you spiked from 100 to 0 and that small difference in max mana was the difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s not just about your dps increasing kills/hour. As has been shown some camps the biggest limit is the respawn timer.

What I’ve found dps useful for is making each individual fight a little shorter and safer. The longer a fight goes on the more chances the opponent has to spike, getting you low health and forcing you to do an extra tap, spend quaff a pot or whatever.

I agree that more DPS can save you a bit more HP/Mana per kill. However, it is not wise to fight a mob that is going to get you down to 10% life and/or mana on average. You generally fight mobs that are already easy enough to where a few seconds of fighting either way is not going to put you in danger.

If 5 extra seconds of fighting is extremely dangerous, that probably means you are fighting a mob that is too difficult to begin with. The difference between 20 DPS and 21 DPS on Travis Two Tone is 2 seconds.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any % of DPS boost is always going to give you more kills per hour, unless you are artificially limiting your kills per hour by camping a single spawn, which is a hilariously braindead scenario on which to base the utility of STR-- especially, for your point, because INT is 100% useless in that scenario.

"Hey guys, killing this bard that only spawns every 6 minutes faster, only saves you a a little time every hour!"... meanwhile every single knight who is grouping or actively and consistently playing their character is seeing the full bonus and doing 5-10% more damage which, as both I and troxx have said, is whopping.

I also already showed you what the maximum bonus from the extra DPS would give you. If you have 20 DPS, you are getting a 0.8 DPS increase from the 4% boost. Assuming you are auto attacking non-stop for an hour straight, you will get 3600 x 0.8 = 2880 extra damage per hour. Absolute best results are going to be 3 kills per hour when fighting mobs with similar stats as Travis Two Tone, who basically has 900 HP. You would agree that it is not normal to be auto attacking for an hour straight, so the reality is you are getting less than 3 kills per hour. It is probably more like 1-2 kills per hour, assuming you are XPing in a highly efficient manner. This really isn't going to be noticeable for most players.

I have also shown you examples of where you get 0 kills per hour, because respawn rates are a real factor in the game. They are not artificial. Different camps have different DPS thresholds that result in diminishing returns.

[Troxx]

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